That was NOT random! Using my keen and unerring perception of the unspoken thought processes of all those who cross joysticks with me, I concentrated deeply and peered directly into your mind, and I bore witness to all of the minute states and actions of the internal psychological mechanisms that dwell within and ultimately drive your very psyche, and I understood then what you were thinking and how you felt, and perhaps even better than you understood it yourself, and with searing focus I pierced through the dreamlike veil of uncertainty in that one moment to observe your unequivocal truth… and then I just f***ing guessed, man. 🥳
For a little bit more background on the hero ban controversy, iirc, the “this character is too random” argument fizzled out shortly after he was released. While the menu is powerful, hero himself has many weak spots in his kit (some slow and/or underwhelming normals, susceptible to rushdown strategies, etc.). The way I like to describe it is that he’s a mid tier with potential top tier output depending on the matchup (bounce shutting down basically every zoner for example). Even with all of that potential output though, his base just wasn’t strong enough for the majority of players to seriously entertain a ban. The more prominent and longstanding reason for ban discussion comes from his menu. Hero’s menu is all words and no icons. While this isn’t too obtrusive if both players speak the same language, it IS problematic when they don’t. I think the biggest factor for why he hasn’t been banned for the language reason ultimately comes down to the lack of his popularity. Random characters historically aren’t super popular in fighting games as is, so when you have a fighting game featuring close to 90 iconic video game characters, on top of hero being a low high tier at best, that lack of popularity is even larger.
I would also add that hero players can't just spam his command spells either because a lot of them lose to a healthy shield. The ones that don't are either buffs the hero player has to know how to make use of (bounce, oomph, psyche up, accelerato) or are slow and reactable (hatchet man). This helps balance hero as hero players have to use his mediocre base kit to create opportunities where those stronger spells can be used best. Interestingly, the combination of these limitations and his rng spells have made hero a pretty well liked character for spectators of the competitive scene. The two best hero players (BeastModePaul and Akakikusu) have both made great runs at big tournaments that were great to watch.
My personal gripe with Hero is the UI. Nearly all smash characters with meter show what they are doing in battle, there wasn't even extra elements on the UI to show things in the past. But hero spells are only on the UI. If the spell list also showed up over his head, it would be much easier to read, because as to other player, I can look at the character I'm fighting, not at the % display. Show it both places, sure, but it's an onerous distraction to be forced to look away from the fight to have any hope of counterplay. The hero player on the other hand, knows when they will use a spell, and can choose a situation to look away.
Surprised no one mentioned Zappa, who you can summon manually for a seemingly random summon (its actually determined by the second digit on the timer) as well as when getting hit you have a chance of unsummoning or summoning another ghost. The worst one to deal with is dog though, since you can use it in block stun and has a reversal option.
I don't think it is known by the fgc to be honest. But I just have my ear to gaming in general. That moment really rattled me when I learned about it lol. I can't imagine losing out on the finals of anything because something like that went down
Thing with hero is that he was made for a party game I’m not calling competative smash a party game, they cater the rule set to make it competative But smash itself is a party game and hero wasn’t made for competative smash, he was made for the casual fanbase
Also while it isn't as important for the Western audience I believe that Dragon Quest is extremely associated with RNG in Japan because of its historical significance (I've heard that it was the first prominent game to implement critical hits). I've found it odd that in spite of Dragon Quest not really being that random in comparison to a normal RPG (outside of randomness you deliberately opt into as joke options like Hocus Pocus or the Gadabout class), Japanese media that references it via parody or homage frequently does make it seem like it's more heavily fixated on casinobot than it actually is - it's because the RNG in most RPGs is in some way inspired by Dragon Quest.
@@Zetact_ I think part of that association also has to do with the older games. Installments like OG DQIV had AI party members & one particular party member was INFAMOUS for spamming Thwack on all enemies INCLUDING BOSSES IMMUNE TO INSTA-DEATH. This was such a meme in the fanbase that when said character was put in the Heroes spin-offs (basically Dragon Quest Warriors), his super was him spamming it & falling with the "but it failed" text box filling the screen before he gets pissed, breaks the text boxes, & casts a big AOE damage spell.
i wish i had the reflexes for shingo -- that might be part of why he feels a little more "fair", if that makes sense? he's the kind of output random character where you can't just kinda do the same thing as usual just with a slight buff off a coinflip, you have to adapt to the situation or drop it all like, you know, shingo might if he's caught off guard by his own strength
Yeah I ran him on my team for a while and it's about playing him smart. You always buffer into the next thing just in case or have OS in place to deal with reactions. It's pretty cool
Damn, that's big praise! Thanks for saying that and I'm glad you enjoyed! It's been really fun exploring the concepts that go into designing mechanics and characters for these games
@@qmanchu I can tell a ton of passion went into this video. This channel is like going into you kitchen at night looking for food and finding a brief case a million dollars. The level if editing, subject matter and the way you go about explaining everything is so high quality. Keep it up this channel is so good!!!
“If I don’t even know what I’m doing then the opponents HAS NO IDEA WHAT IM DOING”.” But other than that, I think getting that luck can “exist”, but even WHEN you get it, you need to some insane execution or knowledge. Probably my fav is tengu stones in sf5
I'm not a Faust main, but the reason Faust was bad in Strive (early Strive, he's better now) isn't because of his rng mechanics. He just didn't have very good tools, in earlier games (Accent Core, Xrd)he's actually high tier. What makes Faust good in those games is that his item toss is his best move, but he's not luck dependent. Even if Faust pulls one of the less good items, he can still get usage out of it if he reacts quickly enough. Faust is consistent because the point of him isn't to hope for a good item (but getting better items is still preferable) but to be better than your opponent at improvising on the fly in reaction to whatever you pull. This improvisational style makes characters who like consistent setups struggle against him because his items and weird normals will force them to abandon what they were doing and improvise, making it difficult to set up. This description probably isn't spot on because I'm still new to Guilty Gear, but he's pretty good in +R and Rev2. TLDR: Faust's items aren't meant to be a "hope for a good dice roll" tool, they're meant to create chaos and unpredictablility that Faust is uniquely tailored to take advantage of.
I’m almost 100% certain that this would be very unpopular with other competitive players, but I’ve always really liked the idea of a hardcore platform fighter that can procedurally generate a new stage every match. (Guaranteeing vertical symmetry would probably be a decent compromise to roughly preserve fairness in serious play.) No joke, I’ve been thinking about this for yeeeeaars. I’ve been thinking about this ever since I first found out about Chess 960 a.k.a. Fischer Random Chess.
another part of Asuka that I feel makes him a fun kind of RNG is one aspect of his deck system. The multiple decks. For those who don't know Asuka & just saw a fuck ton of icons, he has 3 different decks he can pull his moves from, one centered around general neutral, one centered around projectile spam, & another centered around stage control with stuff like staves that alter his projectile properties or teleports. One thing the player has control over is WHICH deck you use. You start in the general neutral deck & Asuka has a specific non-attack move that is effectively a stance change where the deck he switches to is based on what button you press. You can tell what deck he's on by the color of the number that indicates how many cards are left before he'd have to "reload" with the stance move. I feel this gives a fun form of player expression with the RNG because it lets each Asuka player decide HOW they want to focus their RNG
I mean this is true, but the first step any Asuka player does is make space so they can swap over to specifically deck 3, because out of all the decks it has the most consistently strong cards. In other words, they all main deck 3 BECAUSE it's the least rng for the most consistent power overall. Hopefully they change this and we get some buffs or incentives for the other decks to be changed so it's a more complete character with more interesting match dynamics
But what your opponent does in chess is irrelevant In chess you play positions not opponents If you make good moves based on the board state you will always win irregardless of what your opponent chooses to do
Amazing video ! It's always a pleasure to watch them :) I would definitly like to have more "grab bag random" character in figthing games it looks super fun
It's interesting seeing this debate playing out in the ttrpg space. It seems like every couple of years we all collectively rediscover a way in which input randomness solves some super common problem. Output randomness encroaches, especially in the big name games, because it's exciting and demands less cognitive/creative work to resolve. This shapes the common patterns of play and people forget the old input randomness systems. Then they get rediscovered or implemented in a somewhat novel way and become the flavour of the month mechanic for all the indie games.
18:02 No one with any credit ever seriously suggested banning Hero due to the random factor on its own. That wasnt enough for the discussion to begin - the issue was that it was unreadable RNG - and by that I don't mean it was output RNG, by that I mean people would consider playing in their own local language to prevent opponents from reading their command menu, which was obviously unfair. That was what started the serious "ban Hero" discussion as it was unreasonable to ask every player to learn every language you can set your Switch to use to be able to match up against Hero.
I used to despise RNG characters back in the day but I’ve grown to love them, turns out they CAN be done tastefully and sometimes it even fits them thematically. I used to play Zappa as a wee lad but Asuka made me realize they dont always have to be jank BS. Nowadays I can even appreciate a good Faust player. I think SSBU Hero was the gateway drug…
@@captainphoton1693I agree he should have icons but the mindgame of when he opens his menu is a part of his gameplay especially since he can cancel it like a stance. He’s a zoner
@@terry.1428 didn't saw you said icons were good. But il still saying having a 4 icons in a bar next to hero without the text at all time until down B is used would be better. You both know the options hero has. Instead of scrambling to counter most hero options you would play accordingly. As a hero you just need to pick something that fit the situation. As the opponent you need to react, read faster, then find wich one he'll use, then do the right counter atta k. Like bruh.
I think this is favorite video from you so far. Lots of varied examples with some outside the genre. Haven’t looked into the sources but it also feels well researched. I like how you brought up a GDC talk on randomness too I can’t think of a really interesting example of randomness that I’ve experienced myself but I think Asuka is a really cool character
The uncertainty from Fighting Games is the opposing players' actions and decisions, uncertainty doesnt just equal RNG, its just any factor out of the players control.
I only got to play SSBU a month ago for the first time. (at a local, vs cpus but whatever) Ended up drawing 2, and taking a stock with both kamikazes, out of maybe 4-5 spells in the match i tried Hero. Hehe.
If I remember things right (fell out of Ultimate around the release of Pythra due to the game feeling too stiff and rigid to me), the main reason people want Hero banned is because of language barrier issues with Command Select. He was considered just alright overall, especially with so much of his kit being reliant on MP, but the fact that international tournaments could run into major issues due to one player not speaking the other's language and thus cannot read their command select menu is what most players were worried about. Then again, maybe things have changed since I stopped playing Ultimate, so take all I said with a grain of salt.
It was a two fold problem to begin with. The rng aspect wasn't much of a problem AFTER he got figured out a few months in but yeah, it was still a big point of contention for months
Kl video. I will like to add however sf2 ryu's red fireball was not powered by rng. It was a half a circle motion + punch and u would use in hope that if it hits u get a knockdown so u can walk up on your opponent
@@qmanchu you talking the original with the 4kings to fight but not playable right...? Yeah that was random I only played it a few times but come on that ain't a definitive version 😅 I mean it weren't even out 6 months and got updated
@shanedesir-parkes right, and all I said was Dan's red Fireball was inspired by this. It would be kinda wild to get lost in the details of all that just to explain an Easter egg inspired by an Easter egg. But I do appreciate you mentioning this
It's just you mentioned it in a arcade point of view. I was being generous when I said 6 months It was considerably less here in England but it was like 1-3months in the US Japan. Nobody got to play this version. By the time the buzz of the game reached u they updated the game
@@qmanchuyeah they avoided port priority and used rng instead. it was something like if the total number of frames since the game started is pair, p1 wins.
I am a recently recovering gambling addict and i turned to fighting games to curve that. but, i may or may not main faust in Guilty Gear, dan in SF, and neco arc in melty blood. *shit....*
despite item eat being so much better than item toss on Faust I hardly ever do it just because if my opponent has time to factor my stored item into their defensive strategy then the options I get to use in tandem with the item are easier to react too and deal with.
Yeah, eat is good at being safer as it is faster than a toss and as combo fodder in order to generate more meter with the bonus of having an item stored (you can generally sneak an eat just before an wallbreak for example). Though it is important to note that having an item stored can increase the mental stack on the opponent and, most importantly, stored itens do not count towards item limit, so you can have a mini-faust, meteor, trumpet or banana peel stored and they do not leave the rotation
At least characters like Platinum will show the next item, and Asuka has decks. Necoarc is totally random with her remaining life skewing the odds for stronger output. She's more critical hit than grab bag in that way.
I know this isn’t exactly a fighting game, but I feel the Custom Robo games do something pretty unique. In those games, it effectively works as a die that determines how quickly you can act at round start. It plays a big role in who gets the first hit, possibly even deciding a game. It’s randomness that affects both players in a way that forces a disadvantage at times. While not really fair, it’s not a huge loss (potentially 30% of HP in a game that won’t last much longer than a minute) and can lead to some exciting upsets. In short, Custom Robo was gone too soon.
They wanted to ban hero cuz of the language issue i think Like if a japanese hero player goes to an american major it will be much harder for them to understand which move is which On the other hand if someone faces a hero player outside their country it will also be hard to react and read spells cuz you cant read the menu
Asuka uses symbols and colors, there's no words involved in his spells so you can't ban him for that. Hero was the one with that issue as you mentioned
As someone who has dabbled a bit of hero and even tried to secondary him at one point his RNG is not that agregious at all. In fact its a miracle that a character behind the balnce team that made Kazuya, Sonic, Steve and ROB managed to Make his spells as balanced as it is. Hero and Asuka are actually very similar in the fact that Hero has to manage a MP in order to use his spells, a problem however is that his other specials moves also rely on this meter. His side special is lowkey one of the best moves in the game and is only held back by being tied to the same resource that gives him the most special moves in the game. Even his recovery is tied to his meter so fishing for rng too much is just an unwise way to play hero. I'd also like to say that most of heroes "Crazy" spells aren't that good and have very exploitable counterplay or they just aren't in the favour of the hero player in the first place. Not to mention that beside from magic burst and kamikaze (both moves that toll a serious cost on hero) or thwack that has a low startup, The opponent can always jump to basically avoid any offensive spell coming their way. While Hero may seem like this lowskill glue muncher that can smite you in a instant, in reality he's really hard to make work in bracket and past low level play. Im not saying he's hard because he's a low tier. I'm saying he's hard to work because in order to succeed with hero you need to push with him at his worst. Sure there have been sets that may have only been won because of the players luck, but there has never been a tournament won where the player didnt have the skill to back it up
I want see a Story where a character has an RNG power and actually PUTS WORK INTO IT, *NO PLOT ARMOR!* "This seems useless... Okay bare knuckle it through the cooldown!" "WAT DIS?! Okay people, any idea might work, BRAINSTORMING TIME!" "... WTAF... What? That other thing? Sure, try whatev-- *We almost died there."*
@@qmanchu random select. And also speaking of fighting game rosters, can you please build your own hypothetical roster for an Arc System Works-developed Fire Emblem fighting game with original characters coming from modern era Earth?
Distinguishing randomness in terms of "input" vs. "output" always seemed a bit misleading to me as the ultimate way to promote strategy. For example, I wouldn't consider most Poker games that don't involve drawing such as Hold Em, Omaha, or 7-Card Stud as having "input randomness" of a sort that allows players to input a selection among multiple random outcomes. There is no input whatsoever in this respect; it's more analogous to the chance of a critical hit or miss and the only control being whether or not to attack. All players can input is whether or not they want to continue on each street of betting and -- with the exception of fixed-limit -- how much they want to bet. So unless I misunderstood the definitions, such games strictly have "output randomness". Poker games that involve drawing do involve "input randomness", as with the case of 5-Card Draw, Bagudi, and 2-7 Triple Draw. There player input does dictate a selection among multiple random outcomes (what cards to keep vs. what cards to discard). Yet no one would consider Hold Em or Omaha to be any less "strategic" than 5-Card Draw or 2-7 TD. What I consider a more meaningful distinction is "knowns" vs. "unknowns". All forms of Poker require extensive thinking about an overwhelming sea of "known" variables to play skillfully: hand ranges, position, bet sizing, table image, implied odds, reverse implied odds, dead cards/blockers, board texture, player psychology, VPIP, c-bet patterns, etc. If we compare to something like Slots which involves no skill/strategic element whatsoever to pull a lever and hope to get lucky, the distinction has nothing to do with "input" vs. "output". It's because there are no "known" variables a Slots player has to factor in and contemplate deeply to improve their odds of winning. Input randomness does very loosely align with more known information for a player to contemplate to determine the best choice (the one with the highest expected value), but I consider it a very loose correlation and not the true causation. What makes any game involving randomness more or less skillful to me is the degree to which contemplating the known variables against the unknown is critical to make a skilled (disciplined, thoughtful, strategic) vs. unskilled (impulsive, mindless, careless) decision.
When it comes to randomness in fighters, I'm of the stern belief that regardless of the randomness, it should still be of positive benefit to you. The benefit might not be the ideal outcome for the situation and maybe you still need to appropriately react to what you get, but it's always good enough that its still worth using. So essentially, I'm mostly just against critical failures. If a move can't be consistently reliable, there's just no point in using it. If you had a good combo that randomly drops once every ten times, of course you're going to avoid using it. You never know when it'll fail you in a crucial moment. Especially if it somehow puts you in a worse position. I'm probably going to regret bringing this up but "Arcana Heart 3" has a pretty interesting example that I've been a fan of. To explain a mechanic real quick, in it, you choose a character as your fighter and then an Arcana which grant various additional specials, supers, and effects of their own onto the character you're playing. Think of it like the Infinity Stones from "MvC:I" but more diverse and in-depth. So here's Saligrama, the Luck Arcana. The main special you get from it involves throwing a 6-sided die. The number it lands on will cause the die to explode that amount of times. Its main super involves throwing two dice which add together to give the amount of explosions, but if both dice are the same value (1 and 1, 2 and 2, etc), the explosions are larger with less proration...so more damage. Its ultimate involves throwing a giant die. A 1 summons multiple small dice that fall across the screen with tiny explosions, 2-5 summon the same amount of large dice that each explode, and 6 summons a singular massive die that basically covers a large area when it explodes. So regardless of the outcome, you still get something. The die itself is also a projectile until it lands so it even has that bit of consistency to it, often used as oki with the explosions being something you adjust to when following up. But that's not all, Arcana also give passives, and Luck has multiple passives with a random chance to activate. Savitr - This will randomly cause a period of invincibility from start up to the release of any ground E (universal chargeable launcher) move. Manyu - This will randomly force counter hit status after landing a non-CH hit on your opponent. Tapas - This will randomly prorate damage taken by an extra 10% when hit...so you just take less damage. Pusan - This will randomly cause a single hit that would KO you to leaving you with 1 HP instead. None of these are abilities that you will count on but at the same time, you don't lose anything if they don't activate. On the other hand, when they do activate, they can be very helpful. And remember, this is just something you are giving to your character on top of what they already can do on their own. So even if the randomness wasn't in your favor, it won't make or break your game plan. It just helps more if you happen to be luckier.
He doesn't use the word randomness, he says uncertainty. Without uncertainty, you knownwho/what would win every time, which then makes it not a game. A game should be decided by skill, strength or luck but qhwn you know you can win every time, it's just a whole different beast. I'm not saying randomness and uncertainty are the same thing but it's important to understand randomness can play into uncertainty
Asuka isn't random though. If a player is skilled enough or has planned enough, they know what card comes when, at the start of the match all the cards are in the same position.
The cards don't appear in fixed orders, but rather have a fixed amount of each card. You can draw certain spells, and some are much more likely than others like the water cube I think is the most common in Test Case 1. Once you empty a pool of cards, then it resets. So it is still random but you have to "count cards" as you play. He also has a few moves that specifically randomize his deck, and according to the game itself, "reshuffles" the decks. If the decks were set as you said, they wouldn't use the word reshuffles. Chaotic Option: Bookmarks a powerful spell at random, independent of Test Case Book Mark (random Import): Effectively reshuffles your current deck.
I see... you must think about every issue imaginable before posting these kind of things. Thanks for your answer ! Love your work, keep up the good stuff and best of luck ! @@qmanchu
@@Bike-chan Variety is the spice of life, and even then you can clearly make it work. Hero in my opinion is a phenomenal design because Hero is kinda bad without Menu, causing him to be reliant on his randomness.
my favorite type of randomness in fighting games is dp in neutral
That was NOT random! Using my keen and unerring perception of the unspoken thought processes of all those who cross joysticks with me, I concentrated deeply and peered directly into your mind, and I bore witness to all of the minute states and actions of the internal psychological mechanisms that dwell within and ultimately drive your very psyche, and I understood then what you were thinking and how you felt, and perhaps even better than you understood it yourself, and with searing focus I pierced through the dreamlike veil of uncertainty in that one moment to observe your unequivocal truth… and then I just f***ing guessed, man. 🥳
She dp in my neutral ‘til I
C O U N T E R
Mine is "sod it, super!".
Look for Umishoryu by Redbull gaming
Run up dp in neutral is the best strategy 101%
For a little bit more background on the hero ban controversy, iirc, the “this character is too random” argument fizzled out shortly after he was released. While the menu is powerful, hero himself has many weak spots in his kit (some slow and/or underwhelming normals, susceptible to rushdown strategies, etc.). The way I like to describe it is that he’s a mid tier with potential top tier output depending on the matchup (bounce shutting down basically every zoner for example). Even with all of that potential output though, his base just wasn’t strong enough for the majority of players to seriously entertain a ban.
The more prominent and longstanding reason for ban discussion comes from his menu. Hero’s menu is all words and no icons. While this isn’t too obtrusive if both players speak the same language, it IS problematic when they don’t.
I think the biggest factor for why he hasn’t been banned for the language reason ultimately comes down to the lack of his popularity. Random characters historically aren’t super popular in fighting games as is, so when you have a fighting game featuring close to 90 iconic video game characters, on top of hero being a low high tier at best, that lack of popularity is even larger.
I would also add that hero players can't just spam his command spells either because a lot of them lose to a healthy shield. The ones that don't are either buffs the hero player has to know how to make use of (bounce, oomph, psyche up, accelerato) or are slow and reactable (hatchet man). This helps balance hero as hero players have to use his mediocre base kit to create opportunities where those stronger spells can be used best.
Interestingly, the combination of these limitations and his rng spells have made hero a pretty well liked character for spectators of the competitive scene. The two best hero players (BeastModePaul and Akakikusu) have both made great runs at big tournaments that were great to watch.
My personal gripe with Hero is the UI. Nearly all smash characters with meter show what they are doing in battle, there wasn't even extra elements on the UI to show things in the past.
But hero spells are only on the UI. If the spell list also showed up over his head, it would be much easier to read, because as to other player, I can look at the character I'm fighting, not at the % display. Show it both places, sure, but it's an onerous distraction to be forced to look away from the fight to have any hope of counterplay.
The hero player on the other hand, knows when they will use a spell, and can choose a situation to look away.
Hero is not a low tier character tho
He is at least mid tier but probably high tier
Surprised no one mentioned Zappa, who you can summon manually for a seemingly random summon (its actually determined by the second digit on the timer) as well as when getting hit you have a chance of unsummoning or summoning another ghost. The worst one to deal with is dog though, since you can use it in block stun and has a reversal option.
Yeah I wanted to mention Zappa but there wouldn't be too too much to say about him. I'm hoping Zappa comes to Strive so I can talk about them then lol
0:31 I didn't know Zheng Will-O-Miss was iconic enough to be know by the FGC. Honestly to me it's up there with EVO moment 37.
I don't think it is known by the fgc to be honest. But I just have my ear to gaming in general. That moment really rattled me when I learned about it lol. I can't imagine losing out on the finals of anything because something like that went down
@@qmanchu It was actually Top 4. Iirc Ryuouke won World that year.
@hailthequeenFM yeah that's what I'm saying, this was the match to get into top 2, so he lost this and missed out on the finals
@@hailthequeenFMit was top 4 yes, but Arash won worlds that year
Thing with hero is that he was made for a party game
I’m not calling competative smash a party game, they cater the rule set to make it competative
But smash itself is a party game and hero wasn’t made for competative smash, he was made for the casual fanbase
Yupp, that's what I say in the video! He's not poorly designed at all, in fact he's kinda genius
Also while it isn't as important for the Western audience I believe that Dragon Quest is extremely associated with RNG in Japan because of its historical significance (I've heard that it was the first prominent game to implement critical hits). I've found it odd that in spite of Dragon Quest not really being that random in comparison to a normal RPG (outside of randomness you deliberately opt into as joke options like Hocus Pocus or the Gadabout class), Japanese media that references it via parody or homage frequently does make it seem like it's more heavily fixated on casinobot than it actually is - it's because the RNG in most RPGs is in some way inspired by Dragon Quest.
@@Zetact_ I think part of that association also has to do with the older games. Installments like OG DQIV had AI party members & one particular party member was INFAMOUS for spamming Thwack on all enemies INCLUDING BOSSES IMMUNE TO INSTA-DEATH. This was such a meme in the fanbase that when said character was put in the Heroes spin-offs (basically Dragon Quest Warriors), his super was him spamming it & falling with the "but it failed" text box filling the screen before he gets pissed, breaks the text boxes, & casts a big AOE damage spell.
i wish i had the reflexes for shingo -- that might be part of why he feels a little more "fair", if that makes sense? he's the kind of output random character where you can't just kinda do the same thing as usual just with a slight buff off a coinflip, you have to adapt to the situation or drop it all like, you know, shingo might if he's caught off guard by his own strength
Yeah I ran him on my team for a while and it's about playing him smart. You always buffer into the next thing just in case or have OS in place to deal with reactions. It's pretty cool
Bro, that frog must have been really really mad if he slug like that. 8:50
This is single handedly the best review of a fighting game mechanic on this entire platform
Damn, that's big praise! Thanks for saying that and I'm glad you enjoyed! It's been really fun exploring the concepts that go into designing mechanics and characters for these games
@@qmanchu I can tell a ton of passion went into this video. This channel is like going into you kitchen at night looking for food and finding a brief case a million dollars. The level if editing, subject matter and the way you go about explaining everything is so high quality. Keep it up this channel is so good!!!
"Shake my hand!"
"No!!"
"SHAKE. MY. HAND"
“If I don’t even know what I’m doing then the opponents HAS NO IDEA WHAT IM DOING”.”
But other than that, I think getting that luck can “exist”, but even WHEN you get it, you need to some insane execution or knowledge. Probably my fav is tengu stones in sf5
I'm not a Faust main, but the reason Faust was bad in Strive (early Strive, he's better now) isn't because of his rng mechanics. He just didn't have very good tools, in earlier games (Accent Core, Xrd)he's actually high tier. What makes Faust good in those games is that his item toss is his best move, but he's not luck dependent. Even if Faust pulls one of the less good items, he can still get usage out of it if he reacts quickly enough. Faust is consistent because the point of him isn't to hope for a good item (but getting better items is still preferable) but to be better than your opponent at improvising on the fly in reaction to whatever you pull. This improvisational style makes characters who like consistent setups struggle against him because his items and weird normals will force them to abandon what they were doing and improvise, making it difficult to set up. This description probably isn't spot on because I'm still new to Guilty Gear, but he's pretty good in +R and Rev2.
TLDR: Faust's items aren't meant to be a "hope for a good dice roll" tool, they're meant to create chaos and unpredictablility that Faust is uniquely tailored to take advantage of.
I’m almost 100% certain that this would be very unpopular with other competitive players, but I’ve always really liked the idea of a hardcore platform fighter that can procedurally generate a new stage every match. (Guaranteeing vertical symmetry would probably be a decent compromise to roughly preserve fairness in serious play.)
No joke, I’ve been thinking about this for yeeeeaars. I’ve been thinking about this ever since I first found out about Chess 960 a.k.a. Fischer Random Chess.
a competitively viable Mario Maker stage would definitely be interesting
There's always an audience, just make the game good and you'll get people playing.
My favorite randomness is Danger Time, it's hype when it happens cause it's a random chance on every clash in REV 2
another part of Asuka that I feel makes him a fun kind of RNG is one aspect of his deck system. The multiple decks. For those who don't know Asuka & just saw a fuck ton of icons, he has 3 different decks he can pull his moves from, one centered around general neutral, one centered around projectile spam, & another centered around stage control with stuff like staves that alter his projectile properties or teleports. One thing the player has control over is WHICH deck you use. You start in the general neutral deck & Asuka has a specific non-attack move that is effectively a stance change where the deck he switches to is based on what button you press. You can tell what deck he's on by the color of the number that indicates how many cards are left before he'd have to "reload" with the stance move. I feel this gives a fun form of player expression with the RNG because it lets each Asuka player decide HOW they want to focus their RNG
He's rng and a stance character? Welp, fuck, that's evil, I would have never thought to do that combo of character archetypes ever, arc, you mad men.
I mean this is true, but the first step any Asuka player does is make space so they can swap over to specifically deck 3, because out of all the decks it has the most consistently strong cards. In other words, they all main deck 3 BECAUSE it's the least rng for the most consistent power overall. Hopefully they change this and we get some buffs or incentives for the other decks to be changed so it's a more complete character with more interesting match dynamics
I enjoyed this video. There's no randomness in Chess except in what determines who plays with the white pieces and who plays with the black pieces.
From your perspective what your opponent does is always random. Like rock paper sizers.
But what your opponent does in chess is irrelevant
In chess you play positions not opponents
If you make good moves based on the board state you will always win irregardless of what your opponent chooses to do
Amazing video ! It's always a pleasure to watch them :) I would definitly like to have more "grab bag random" character in figthing games it looks super fun
It's interesting seeing this debate playing out in the ttrpg space. It seems like every couple of years we all collectively rediscover a way in which input randomness solves some super common problem.
Output randomness encroaches, especially in the big name games, because it's exciting and demands less cognitive/creative work to resolve. This shapes the common patterns of play and people forget the old input randomness systems. Then they get rediscovered or implemented in a somewhat novel way and become the flavour of the month mechanic for all the indie games.
18:02 No one with any credit ever seriously suggested banning Hero due to the random factor on its own. That wasnt enough for the discussion to begin - the issue was that it was unreadable RNG - and by that I don't mean it was output RNG, by that I mean people would consider playing in their own local language to prevent opponents from reading their command menu, which was obviously unfair. That was what started the serious "ban Hero" discussion as it was unreasonable to ask every player to learn every language you can set your Switch to use to be able to match up against Hero.
I used to despise RNG characters back in the day but I’ve grown to love them, turns out they CAN be done tastefully and sometimes it even fits them thematically. I used to play Zappa as a wee lad but Asuka made me realize they dont always have to be jank BS. Nowadays I can even appreciate a good Faust player. I think SSBU Hero was the gateway drug…
Ssbu hero should still have it's menu open at all time, plus icônes per spell. Kinda like seeing every spell Asuka has in his hand.
@@captainphoton1693I agree he should have icons but the mindgame of when he opens his menu is a part of his gameplay especially since he can cancel it like a stance. He’s a zoner
@@terry.1428 there is no mind game if you can't read japanese
@@captainphoton1693 Cmon that obviously isn't what I meant lol
@@terry.1428 didn't saw you said icons were good. But il still saying having a 4 icons in a bar next to hero without the text at all time until down B is used would be better. You both know the options hero has. Instead of scrambling to counter most hero options you would play accordingly. As a hero you just need to pick something that fit the situation. As the opponent you need to react, read faster, then find wich one he'll use, then do the right counter atta k. Like bruh.
Amazing video, buff asuka
Buff TC2 give him a few teleports.
I think this is favorite video from you so far. Lots of varied examples with some outside the genre. Haven’t looked into the sources but it also feels well researched. I like how you brought up a GDC talk on randomness too
I can’t think of a really interesting example of randomness that I’ve experienced myself but I think Asuka is a really cool character
The uncertainty from Fighting Games is the opposing players' actions and decisions, uncertainty doesnt just equal RNG, its just any factor out of the players control.
the fairest type of uncertainty is sheer chaos.
change my mind
Tira from SoulCalibur is another great example of this
I only got to play SSBU a month ago for the first time. (at a local, vs cpus but whatever) Ended up drawing 2, and taking a stock with both kamikazes, out of maybe 4-5 spells in the match i tried Hero. Hehe.
If I remember things right (fell out of Ultimate around the release of Pythra due to the game feeling too stiff and rigid to me), the main reason people want Hero banned is because of language barrier issues with Command Select. He was considered just alright overall, especially with so much of his kit being reliant on MP, but the fact that international tournaments could run into major issues due to one player not speaking the other's language and thus cannot read their command select menu is what most players were worried about.
Then again, maybe things have changed since I stopped playing Ultimate, so take all I said with a grain of salt.
It was a two fold problem to begin with. The rng aspect wasn't much of a problem AFTER he got figured out a few months in but yeah, it was still a big point of contention for months
Kl video. I will like to add however sf2 ryu's red fireball was not powered by rng. It was a half a circle motion + punch and u would use in hope that if it hits u get a knockdown so u can walk up on your opponent
Depends on the version of the game. In the original CPS1 versions, it was an Easter egg but yeah, they added it to his moveset afterwards
@@qmanchu you talking the original with the 4kings to fight but not playable right...? Yeah that was random I only played it a few times but come on that ain't a definitive version 😅 I mean it weren't even out 6 months and got updated
@shanedesir-parkes right, and all I said was Dan's red Fireball was inspired by this. It would be kinda wild to get lost in the details of all that just to explain an Easter egg inspired by an Easter egg. But I do appreciate you mentioning this
It's just you mentioned it in a arcade point of view. I was being generous when I said 6 months It was considerably less here in England but it was like 1-3months in the US Japan. Nobody got to play this version. By the time the buzz of the game reached u they updated the game
I'm not saying you're wrong here, I'm just saying splitting hairs in a 22 minute video is how it grows 3x in length is all
in sf5, if the 2 players command grab at the same time, or one grabs and the other uses a command grab, the loser is chosen at random
I didn't know this!
@@qmanchuyeah they avoided port priority and used rng instead. it was something like if the total number of frames since the game started is pair, p1 wins.
OMG the Sega Rally 2 music at the end
planning around rng and improvising is a skill as well
I am a recently recovering gambling addict and i turned to fighting games to curve that. but, i may or may not main faust in Guilty Gear, dan in SF, and neco arc in melty blood.
*shit....*
despite item eat being so much better than item toss on Faust I hardly ever do it just because if my opponent has time to factor my stored item into their defensive strategy then the options I get to use in tandem with the item are easier to react too and deal with.
Great point
Yeah, eat is good at being safer as it is faster than a toss and as combo fodder in order to generate more meter with the bonus of having an item stored (you can generally sneak an eat just before an wallbreak for example).
Though it is important to note that having an item stored can increase the mental stack on the opponent and, most importantly, stored itens do not count towards item limit, so you can have a mini-faust, meteor, trumpet or banana peel stored and they do not leave the rotation
I think this is the first time I've seen Killer Instinct being played outside of the time I played and then uninstalled it XD
At least characters like Platinum will show the next item, and Asuka has decks. Necoarc is totally random with her remaining life skewing the odds for stronger output. She's more critical hit than grab bag in that way.
Platinum has a Tetris bag system, where you are guaranteed each item once before it starts a new bag to randomly pull from
8:52 aint that Miguels unblockable from T7?? Lmao
I know this isn’t exactly a fighting game, but I feel the Custom Robo games do something pretty unique. In those games, it effectively works as a die that determines how quickly you can act at round start. It plays a big role in who gets the first hit, possibly even deciding a game. It’s randomness that affects both players in a way that forces a disadvantage at times. While not really fair, it’s not a huge loss (potentially 30% of HP in a game that won’t last much longer than a minute) and can lead to some exciting upsets. In short, Custom Robo was gone too soon.
Great video, do you have more examples of critical hit characters beside Shingo and Game&Watch?
Suwako from Hisoutensoku.
I'm working on a soku video, don't worry. Wanted to talk about it here but there's too much tonsay
They wanted to ban hero cuz of the language issue i think
Like if a japanese hero player goes to an american major it will be much harder for them to understand which move is which
On the other hand if someone faces a hero player outside their country it will also be hard to react and read spells cuz you cant read the menu
Asuka uses symbols and colors, there's no words involved in his spells so you can't ban him for that. Hero was the one with that issue as you mentioned
@@qmanchu oh shit i said asuka
@baka_telas4266 oh I see what happened here, now it makes way more sense lmao
As someone who has dabbled a bit of hero and even tried to secondary him at one point his RNG is not that agregious at all. In fact its a miracle that a character behind the balnce team that made Kazuya, Sonic, Steve and ROB managed to Make his spells as balanced as it is. Hero and Asuka are actually very similar in the fact that Hero has to manage a MP in order to use his spells, a problem however is that his other specials moves also rely on this meter. His side special is lowkey one of the best moves in the game and is only held back by being tied to the same resource that gives him the most special moves in the game. Even his recovery is tied to his meter so fishing for rng too much is just an unwise way to play hero.
I'd also like to say that most of heroes "Crazy" spells aren't that good and have very exploitable counterplay or they just aren't in the favour of the hero player in the first place. Not to mention that beside from magic burst and kamikaze (both moves that toll a serious cost on hero) or thwack that has a low startup, The opponent can always jump to basically avoid any offensive spell coming their way. While Hero may seem like this lowskill glue muncher that can smite you in a instant, in reality he's really hard to make work in bracket and past low level play. Im not saying he's hard because he's a low tier. I'm saying he's hard to work because in order to succeed with hero you need to push with him at his worst. Sure there have been sets that may have only been won because of the players luck, but there has never been a tournament won where the player didnt have the skill to back it up
17:11 Hero mains be like: Skill issue 🗿
I want see a Story where a character has an RNG power and actually PUTS WORK INTO IT, *NO PLOT ARMOR!*
"This seems useless... Okay bare knuckle it through the cooldown!"
"WAT DIS?! Okay people, any idea might work, BRAINSTORMING TIME!"
"... WTAF... What? That other thing? Sure, try whatev--
*We almost died there."*
New video let's gooooooo
The Danfinite was the best 😅. Only Dan could have a literal infinite, and still be a low tier character 🤣
I think rng can keep a game fun and on your toes, if they can properly adapt it so it doesn’t break the game
19:38 for me -there are bugs in your skin peel off your skin-
imo i like rng best when it's on jokey lower tiers as more of a character flair, once it's put on an actual effective character it become an issue.
I think most agree with you! I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I'd like to see it explored more
8:52 there is no fkin way croagunk did tekken's miguel taunt
10:40 DEDEDE'S CROUCH TOO?
He's got Ganryu moves too! Like a good few of them. It's really cool
My fav rng character is melee ice climbers
great topic
Thank you
How about those question marks featured in fighting game rosters that let you choose your fighter at random?
I did a whole video on that a long time ago actually. One of the first essays I ever did
@@qmanchu ok. Maybe I'll check that out wouldn't you mind?
@HeartAino193 yeah go for it! It's called the art of random or something like that. It's old now haha
@@qmanchu random select. And also speaking of fighting game rosters, can you please build your own hypothetical roster for an Arc System Works-developed Fire Emblem fighting game with original characters coming from modern era Earth?
It got reposted ?
Yeah, had issues with yt settings on the first one
Hero is the best designed character in a fighting and it's actually fair, still can't believe people wanted to ban a low tier character lol
I understand the approach to the ban because of how extreme he was at the time and the language barrier issue but in hindsight, it is very funny
Distinguishing randomness in terms of "input" vs. "output" always seemed a bit misleading to me as the ultimate way to promote strategy.
For example, I wouldn't consider most Poker games that don't involve drawing such as Hold Em, Omaha, or 7-Card Stud as having "input randomness" of a sort that allows players to input a selection among multiple random outcomes. There is no input whatsoever in this respect; it's more analogous to the chance of a critical hit or miss and the only control being whether or not to attack. All players can input is whether or not they want to continue on each street of betting and -- with the exception of fixed-limit -- how much they want to bet. So unless I misunderstood the definitions, such games strictly have "output randomness".
Poker games that involve drawing do involve "input randomness", as with the case of 5-Card Draw, Bagudi, and 2-7 Triple Draw. There player input does dictate a selection among multiple random outcomes (what cards to keep vs. what cards to discard).
Yet no one would consider Hold Em or Omaha to be any less "strategic" than 5-Card Draw or 2-7 TD.
What I consider a more meaningful distinction is "knowns" vs. "unknowns". All forms of Poker require extensive thinking about an overwhelming sea of "known" variables to play skillfully: hand ranges, position, bet sizing, table image, implied odds, reverse implied odds, dead cards/blockers, board texture, player psychology, VPIP, c-bet patterns, etc.
If we compare to something like Slots which involves no skill/strategic element whatsoever to pull a lever and hope to get lucky, the distinction has nothing to do with "input" vs. "output". It's because there are no "known" variables a Slots player has to factor in and contemplate deeply to improve their odds of winning.
Input randomness does very loosely align with more known information for a player to contemplate to determine the best choice (the one with the highest expected value), but I consider it a very loose correlation and not the true causation. What makes any game involving randomness more or less skillful to me is the degree to which contemplating the known variables against the unknown is critical to make a skilled (disciplined, thoughtful, strategic) vs. unskilled (impulsive, mindless, careless) decision.
You remind me of Johnny Arnett, the basketball youtuber
Funny. I modeled a lot of my style off Jxmyhighroller. Another basketball youtuber
Fighting games are like rollback netcode. You just roll the dice and hope for the best
DSP go away pls
@@qmanchu IVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.
@@qmanchu IVE DONE EVERYTHING CORRECT
Thoughts on killer instinct
I need to play it more! Most experience was just playing it at a friend's house cuz I never had an Xbox
When it comes to randomness in fighters, I'm of the stern belief that regardless of the randomness, it should still be of positive benefit to you. The benefit might not be the ideal outcome for the situation and maybe you still need to appropriately react to what you get, but it's always good enough that its still worth using.
So essentially, I'm mostly just against critical failures. If a move can't be consistently reliable, there's just no point in using it. If you had a good combo that randomly drops once every ten times, of course you're going to avoid using it. You never know when it'll fail you in a crucial moment. Especially if it somehow puts you in a worse position.
I'm probably going to regret bringing this up but "Arcana Heart 3" has a pretty interesting example that I've been a fan of. To explain a mechanic real quick, in it, you choose a character as your fighter and then an Arcana which grant various additional specials, supers, and effects of their own onto the character you're playing. Think of it like the Infinity Stones from "MvC:I" but more diverse and in-depth.
So here's Saligrama, the Luck Arcana.
The main special you get from it involves throwing a 6-sided die. The number it lands on will cause the die to explode that amount of times.
Its main super involves throwing two dice which add together to give the amount of explosions, but if both dice are the same value (1 and 1, 2 and 2, etc), the explosions are larger with less proration...so more damage.
Its ultimate involves throwing a giant die. A 1 summons multiple small dice that fall across the screen with tiny explosions, 2-5 summon the same amount of large dice that each explode, and 6 summons a singular massive die that basically covers a large area when it explodes.
So regardless of the outcome, you still get something. The die itself is also a projectile until it lands so it even has that bit of consistency to it, often used as oki with the explosions being something you adjust to when following up.
But that's not all, Arcana also give passives, and Luck has multiple passives with a random chance to activate.
Savitr - This will randomly cause a period of invincibility from start up to the release of any ground E (universal chargeable launcher) move.
Manyu - This will randomly force counter hit status after landing a non-CH hit on your opponent.
Tapas - This will randomly prorate damage taken by an extra 10% when hit...so you just take less damage.
Pusan - This will randomly cause a single hit that would KO you to leaving you with 1 HP instead.
None of these are abilities that you will count on but at the same time, you don't lose anything if they don't activate. On the other hand, when they do activate, they can be very helpful.
And remember, this is just something you are giving to your character on top of what they already can do on their own. So even if the randomness wasn't in your favor, it won't make or break your game plan. It just helps more if you happen to be luckier.
You cant conflate randomness and unceirtainty. There is lots of uncertainty in any good fighting game. Be it RPS or execution barrier.
You forgot to mention that fighting games are constant gamble and rps.
Hell yeah
no joke, Asuka plays basicly like megaman Battle Network games
Great games
No Steve discussion lol
We need not say his name
That statement of a game not being a game without randomnese seems incredibly weird to me
Dare i say wrong
He doesn't use the word randomness, he says uncertainty. Without uncertainty, you knownwho/what would win every time, which then makes it not a game. A game should be decided by skill, strength or luck but qhwn you know you can win every time, it's just a whole different beast.
I'm not saying randomness and uncertainty are the same thing but it's important to understand randomness can play into uncertainty
Pretty sure judgement is just who has the higher score, its not some mystery
You should do some more research into it because it's not that. Exact same score still gives random results and they've tested that
😎👍
Asuka isn't random though. If a player is skilled enough or has planned enough, they know what card comes when, at the start of the match all the cards are in the same position.
The cards don't appear in fixed orders, but rather have a fixed amount of each card. You can draw certain spells, and some are much more likely than others like the water cube I think is the most common in Test Case 1. Once you empty a pool of cards, then it resets. So it is still random but you have to "count cards" as you play. He also has a few moves that specifically randomize his deck, and according to the game itself, "reshuffles" the decks. If the decks were set as you said, they wouldn't use the word reshuffles.
Chaotic Option: Bookmarks a powerful spell at random, independent of Test Case
Book Mark (random Import): Effectively reshuffles your current deck.
What was wrong with the first thumbnail ?
Nothing was inherently wrong with it, but you've gotta experiment with these things. It's a fickle game on this platform
I see... you must think about every issue imaginable before posting these kind of things. Thanks for your answer ! Love your work, keep up the good stuff and best of luck ! @@qmanchu
Thanks a lot and I'm really glad you enjoy!
Let me guess, the first one didn't have Neco-Arc, right?
obligatory Hisoutensoku comment
I'm working on a video for it. Was gonna sneak it into this one but it deserves its own analysis. Been playing it on the side too :)
Hehehe faust item throw
POKKEN FOOTAGE
Game deserves a proper sequel in my opinion. Lots of great ideas
Faust
Faust🫡
Gamblers
Best way to balance it, just don't put it. Idk how can people justify randomness in a competitive game.
Because it’s fun.
@@takodacorliss5838 only when you're the lucky one, but overall it's anti-competitive.
@@takodacorliss5838 besides, if your game needs luck to be fun, maybe playing it competitively is not that great.
@@Bike-chan Variety is the spice of life, and even then you can clearly make it work. Hero in my opinion is a phenomenal design because Hero is kinda bad without Menu, causing him to be reliant on his randomness.
@@takodacorliss5838 variety =/= randomness. If a game relies on luck to be fun, maybe it's competitive scene shouldn't be taken seriously anyway.