I think setplay is at its best when it isn’t safe. Where you can run your mixups, but if the opponent uses a reversal you lose unless you bait it out. It’s then a game about making your opponent respect your offense and punishing them hard when they try to mash so that you can run your insane mixups. This is what a lot (not all) of the setplay in skullgirls is like. Characters will have insane 4 way mixups, but you have to make them respect you in order to run it. Reversal safe setplay is a lot less interesting
I mean most setplay is risky. Unless you have privliged ass normals that give you mix at range or some of your mix is just inherently DP safe, Or if a character doesn’t have an invincible reversal. If thats the case though something about them was bullshit enough to warrant it.
Setplay is inherently a reward. You need to set it up before you can reap the benefits. I think setplay becomes a problem when its too easy to access; you should earn it after youve thoroughly read the opponent. And I think setplay is more interesting as a reward for making a hard read than just big damage. Nerf setplay by making it harder to access, not removing it. Make the heavy knockdown require a specific starter thats riskier to use, make the setup require the corner, etc.
> make the knockdown require a specific starter that's riskier to use This is why I don't mind sweeps in Tekken. You get a knockdown and oki. If I block it, I get to full combo you. Remove launching lows please
I have nothing of worth to add, but shoutouts to Hol Horse from Jojos Heritage to the Future. He doesn’t have setplay. He just unblockables you on oki. Can’t even dp it since you can only block for your first frame waking up. Aaaand he’s lower mid tier because that’s pretty much all he has, and over half the cast has a “press S to not get knocked down” button. HTTF is such a goofy ass game.
Note: Setplay doesn't always involve unrreactable mixups. Actually, it's becoming more and mroe common that setplay characters don't have unrreactable mixups in newer FGs. This is mostly true with setplay characters do use a proyectiles to limit the opponents defensive options, the typical examplex being Millia in Guilty Gear, while other characters without this feature have to take higher risks (like Chipp) but also have more brutal mixups. This is also the reason why Chipp often has better neutral than Millia, he's an all-out offensive character, while she's more of a carefully planned opportunistic character than can't do whatever she wants unless she knocks you down. I'm more on the "Millia side" as I love forcing the opponent to block on wake up or to use desperate moves, but I don't care if my mixups are reactable. You would be surprised about how many people mash DPs against setplay proyectiles when the only thing I'm doing is waiting for them to do it LOL. I'm mostly a French Bread player, so I play H-V.Akiha on MBAACC and Carmine on UNI2. I used to be a Millia main in Xrd and Strive.
Well yes, I love layered offense and sometimes ignoring defenses :3 Anyways, I love the kind of setplay that's more "extra RPS" than "free 50/50" but it's okay if I like them :3c
You did mention how it's much toned down in modern games, and I definitely am a biased strive baby Millia player, but in that context I don't agree that mixups in setplay are total guesses with the player's interactions and intentions completely irrelevant. You can pick out the player's tendencies even from those decisions - if I choose to crossup on Millia's H disc, depending on the spacing I'm making it easier or harder to pick up the combo once I land. If I go high, I get a much more damaging combo, with the option of cutting it shorter and going back into the mix if it hits, as well as more air options to go for risky and unexpected high options if it's blocked. On the other hand, if I go low all I get is a 2K2D into more mix. If I want to go for high damage with a more unseeable mixup, unless I'm an execution god, I have to completely skip the high/low and be ready to pick up with a close slash as soon as I land. If I'm closer to the corner, if I want to wallbreak I'd have to stay on the same side and and go high. But if I want to get greedy and go for another mix that could kill, I'm more likely to cross up, since cornering them will limit my mixup options next time. All of those things are decisions and tendencies people call me out for, and that I can recognize and punish. It's obviously not as interactive and mind-gamey as normal pressure, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss as "literally just guessing"
Good points! I think I-no has something similar - her repeated 50/50s (multiple air attacks into ambiguous high/low) require a lot of commitment, while she doesnt get much off her throw
Nah don't discount your opinion here, you absolutely cooked. A factor for them on defense as well may be if I block high and they hit low, I still take less damage than if I block high etc etc, it's a guessing game but one with intention.
Something that also cant be forgotten is that some player may not know of this kind of minutiae which makes it look more like a 50/50. Smh skill issue /j
the problem with this perspective is that setplay isn't RNG because like you said, fighting games are about learning your opponent and getting into their head, and humans can't effectively make completely random decisions because of inherent bias. people will always lean toward one option in a 50/50, and it's your job to find out how to deal with it. also, unless the mixup hits on the exact same frame, fuzzy blocking is a thing that exists.
From my (very amateur) perspective, typical setplay isn't too different from the Charlotta example. It's a 50/50 of whether you'll use your special to continue the combo, or reset the blockstring. When it comes to setplay characters, high-low is one type of decision-making - but left-right, strike-throw, and frame traps are also similar decisions that you have to react to. A lot of the time, they're just as guess-intensive and sometimes equally unreactable. So, at least for me, high-low setplay is just another type of punishing decision to deal with.
I was thinking the same thing. I think the difference has to do with the actual setup, and that setplay situations are typically more advantageous to the attacker. But ultimately, whether it's a high/low 50/50 or a choice between dodging and not dodging, both players have a choice to make in these situations, not based on reactions but on prediction of what the other will do.
The video from my understanding comes mainly from a place of risk. Pretty much every example of set play in the video involves a mixup protected by a projectile. Even if the offense itself fails, the player is completely safe from all repercussions for that one time and can continue to keep going afterwards. This is a big difference from the Charlotta example because the mixup has a big fat risk attached to it. Especially if the 5H coming afterwards is executed as a frame trap and not as a wait-and-see. This extends to the modern/older differences of setplay as well. In older games, if you played a set play character, you could setup on almost any knockdown. In newer games though, you can't actually set a projectile and do a fully protected 50/50 mixup off on most knockdowns. It's only on very specific knockdowns that they can do that.
Setplay has always been my "Drinking buddy" in fighting games, I don't acually look for it most of the times but it always ends up being a part of most of the characters I like to play. I hate dealing with it tho, but that's cuz I suck at rolling the dice lmao.
[Me realizing the A.B.A. inspired Setplay Character (WIP name Night Servant) I am designing READS like a slave carrying his vampire master coffin] OH...
@@Ramsey276one just lean into it man. Not every piece of fiction has to be clean and moral, sometimes characters coming across as creepy and fucked up can make them more interesting and contribute to their appeal
@@Dastankbeets9486 Fun bit of his Perfect Win animation: [Coffin opens and HE neck catches him] *WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?* (Want to know? Get the ending!) XD
@@Ramsey276one characters wielding coffins are always a cool idea. I saw on in a roblox game once when I was young and the idea has stuck out in my head ever since. I came up with a similar character and someone made an awesome animation of him th-cam.com/video/9vF6m5EhVDI/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
Setplay can also be seen as part of a character's reward for playing their character well. Kind of like an extension of a combo that only works sometimes depending on if you can RPS the opponent. If you like the mind games of RPS and the rush of being able to say "I know what you think I'm going to do because I showed you something in the past" Kind of similar to other mixups that are more 'honest' like strike throw but you get that feeling more consistently due to how the character works. There are times where I wish Merkava had more pressure potential up close rather than a kinda finnicky high-low that is easy to mess up.
Setplay only becomes an issue when the character can negate most system options while doing the unreactable mixup, or if said system options are lacking (for example if parries, projectile cross-up protection, guard cancels, screen freezes and similar tools do not exist). Unreactable mixups aren't bad by themselves, they are bad when they remove most windows of interaction. Also, setplay should be distinguished from unreactable mixups, as it can create confusion for new players. Setplay is about putting a hitbox in your opponent and acting while it's active. Unreactable mixups aren't the same as setplay, you can have a normal strike unreactable left/right by walking under or manipulating collision boxes, but you're (usually) still vulnerable to reversal options (if either the buffer allows for a two sided DP, or if the game has a 22DP/invul flashkick). There's also hard to react setplay that always gets people, there's always unreactable OSable setups and etc. Your definition also isn't good when we talk about games with small throw tech windows and little to no throw protection, making it way easier to catch fuzzy throw/mash/jump, either you guess right there if the character gets a safejump into this situation or you lose. It's really a matter of battle system design, not a setplay issue. People do not like absurdly skewed RPS situations because it's corny, but that's not exclusive to setplay.
I enjoy setplay as long as it doesn't repeat insantly. I see it like nothing more than another type of combo: too long it becomes solo playing, short and concise is fair punishment.
So happy to see someone going to bat (no pun intended lol) for heart-based play! Definitely my favorite part of fighting games. It's why I like platform fighters so much - it's basically high-octane air footsies.
I enjoy "light" setplay. I like to play neutral style char that have "setups" available to them. Baiken with tatami safe jumps, ky with post-knockdown h fireball setups, belial with his corner fireball setups, ed vtrigger setups, zeku bird setups. I like the opponent to have to sit still for me to start a blockstring, but i don't need crazy mixx off of it.
I also used to like setplay a lot back when I first started fighting games, because what better way to fight an opponent than having complete control of the situation. But as I played more I learned that I love getting in my opponent's head and making them hesitate/manipulate them into doing what I want, and that made fights more dynamic and interesting for me. Though I still like setplay every once in a while when it's not too excesive, like Carl in BBCF putting you in 15 mixups in the span of 3 seconds. Found out that having the ability to create a looping situation where only one player gets to have fun is not really engaging design, and I think developers did so too.
As an ardent setplay enjoyer, I think that the power level of offense/oki needs to be intentionally tuned, and accounted for in the game's defensive mechanics. Games like CF let characters do a lot, but a lot of the funny vortex will lose to common secondary defensive habbits, and tbe characters who bypass those options are usually universally very difficult and make concessions with how their oki works (or make massive concessions in neutral). A lot of the worst setplay experiences I've had are games where the offense just has no buissness being in the respective game. High stakes pressure is fun, but checkmates arent.
As a C-Kohaku main and a Kohaku main in lumina I am quite the setplay enjoyer. Theres just something about putting the opponent in a guessing game grinder.
Recently I've realised that setplay is the only time I feel like I'm In control in a fighting game. It's why I gravitate towards that kind of character. In the neutral I always feel like I'm supposed to respond to what the opponent is doing instead of doing my own thing because I'm scared of getting hit out. That's why against good players who can escape setplay I get really frustrated and I'm trying to be more proactive in what I'm doing in the rest of the game.
i think akuma in 3rd strike does a setplay character pretty well. he can set up some fucked up mix and resets, buts its not always safe, can be parried, and is high execution. and if akuma messes it up, he just explodes
always love these vids, i would say my favorite setplay character is xrd ram. her neutral is hard to play she has semi high execution and then her corner pressure is really good without feeling hopless but just on the cusp of it so you don't give up because theres always a chance to escape if you can catch on to the patterns that the ram runs.
It's always so disorienting seeing your SF6 footage because it's actually high enough bit rate not to immediately turn into a blotchy mess of compression artifacts
I want to see a character who plays with the idea of what setplay is. Getting into a vortex is piss easy and they have a full wealth of mixup options, but their mix is entirely reactable. Slow, even. You need to become unpredictable to get that feeling of a 25/25/25/25 mixup, and they have tools to help them get there in the form of, say, an install super or level up system that makes their mix harder and harder to react to as the match continues. Make reducing the match to rock paper scissors feel earned, basically. If I'm stuck in a vortex of four way mixups and feel like I have to guess, I'm less frustrated because I know that they got there through my fuck ups. I screwed up when I could react much easier, and this is the consequences of my failure to block. I feel like that also plays with the more psychological aspects of mix and vortexes. The opponent knows that if they fuck up blocking the four way mix early, then they're in for vortex hell later. This creates more pressure, making them more prone to mistakes. Mistakes you then capitalize on by landing those early mix ups and getting your setplay snowball rolling.
I think you're conflating setplay, mixups, 50/50s, and unreactable mixup. Sometimes it's all 4, like Millia's strongest knockdowns, but those situations are few and far between. Even there, it's not that different from making a hard read on an opponent's dodge or wake-up DP. That being said, I do agree with the overall point of FGs being richer with unreactable high-low being less prevalent (unreactable throw usually is risky enough to be ok). BBCF is my favorite example of (mostly) reactable offense, with the exception of a few characters.
Until now I was under the impression that "Setplay" was an archetype for "places pieces and creates advantageous situations with careful planning", like characters who can place down traps and the like. Bedman and Venom in Xrd, Liselotte and Scharlachrot in AH3, Rachel and Mu in BBCF. That sort of thing.
The definition used in this video was pretty dubious, yeah. The whole formula for setplay is 1) Create an advantageous situation that allows you setup time - usually through a knockdown, but this could also take the form of projectiles or traps to keep an enemy at bay. 2) Perform your setup - usually a delayed or long-lasting projectile of some sort. 3) Using the lockdown time provided by the setup, perform a mixup, which may or may not loop back into 1. What defines this as its own archetype rather than just ordinary okizeme that any character can do is that the entire character is built around achieving the requisite setup, and typically without that setup their ability to open up an opponent is limited. Setplay doesn't have to be unreactable, as the video implied. Good setplay usually is, but that's just mixups in general. Good mix requires your opponent to guess right, while bad mix is usually just a knowledge or reaction check.
I guess because I started with anime games I've always thought of setplay as putting down a projectile and then doing a 50/50, but I've heard SF commentators refer to luke landing a meaty jab as setplay so idk
@midorixiv yeah idk why they do that. Since SF games have ACTUAL setplay characters (Ibuki, Menat, Rose, Akira, Gill, and Dhalsim for SFV. Kimberly, Blanka, and JP in SF6)
When i saw the title for this video, i knew 100% Yu Narukami would be mentioned somewhere that character was a menace in the original p4. He was really fun to play and learn all his set play variations with 5D.
I feel like set play and read there are also just as important a part as for example the reset for Charlotte. And neutral mind games focused around avoiding setplay are also important. It's all a part of what makes fighting games great having those factors. Navigating neutral to avoid mix, and try to start our own are just more factors in the mindegames you mention.
If all FGC knowledge was lost in a great purge and this was the only resource available for me to teach a beginner-intermediate player about the concept of setplay, I probably wouldn't use it.
Maybe I'm not *exactly* the most intelligent in terms of this discussion, considering I'd say I only have like 1 or 2 years of actual practical FG experience where I actually fully understood what I was doing, and I still panic in rushdown situations to the point of almost having IRL anxiety attacks due to how often these games can trigger sensory overload, especially when I'm unfamiliar with a title. But I tend to be the type of player who really enjoys looking for opponents tendencies, even if I'm bad at it. I likely couldn't tell you exactly what or why I think an opponent will do something, I usually end up to overwhelmed to gain that info, but I can oftentimes get a *feeling* that they'll press something unsafe, or fall for some stagger pressure or the like. Despite that I tend to drift towards characters with setplay elements, but usually use them to maintain my turn, rather than set up a mixup. An example is Beerus in DBFZ, who is undoubtedly my favorite main from any FG, except maybe Merkava. Usually when using his orbs, I tend to place them on top of my opponent on knockdown, if I don't feel like cashing out meter for damage, and instead use that to reposition, or start a new blockstring, and use the short period I have to gauge the situation to regain my bearings. I tend to usually end up using stagger pressure to open up my opponent instead, or just tossing out a reversal if I think they're likely going to mash into it. This may be unfamiliarity with the character, as I don't have much familiarity with his orb mixups, but I tend to find this lets me play a character I like, while also using his tools to help cover some of my weaknesses.
I believe you need an extremely high IQ to do setplay. The cognitive requirement of killing frames from pressing buttons in order to get your mixups is something not everyone can do. If you aren't of the genius persuasion, you may just end up with questions to answers. I consider vortex to be the Mozart of fighting games, extraordinarily intelligent, but with subtle hints that only the truly wise can appreciate. Thank you for listening to my questions. Hopefully you'll find answers. By the way, English isn't my first language, hope you all understand.
Reminds me of King Dedede gordo ledge traps in Smash. You have to react to the Gordo because it will punish you for hanging, you have an exact amount of time to do press the button, and there are only 2 (,for most characters) options that don't get beaten by it and dont require amazing timing, roll and jump. As Dedede, you are big, slow, heavy, and bad in every situation that is not this one single scenario that you spend all match getting to over and over. And everytime you do, you become impossible to deal with without eating TONS of damage or potentially a stock, and they HAVE to react tp it because they cannot just wait defensively. That's why I love that character. Does that count as a fprm of setplay?
I love setplay personally I think it opens up more avenues for making the game interesting. I love the feeling of trying to outwit my adversary by either throwing up something and getting the mix up or by going for fake out.
As a Skullgirls player I don't care too much about set play since I rarely see it. The game is built on resets and mixups but very few characters actually have set play and most isn't even worth doing cause there is normally a better mix up you could do. That being said the characters that do have set play I enjoy watching and playing because it is different than the normal mix I have to see and deal with. I do Dahlia's sliding knockdown and fire a shot and make you take a right left is fine with me and fun but that's cause in sg you don't have to respect that if you play certain characters or have meter. Skullgirls is a game where you try to get your opponent not to mash on your resets while they try not to give in. That dahlia example isn't the only set play this character has and if any character would fall into set play she would be closest but to be very honest I consider her more of a neutral based footsies character than a set play one. Plus any character who has access to a hard knockdown can right left with an assist but most people won't for for that option as it lets your opponent have time to think of an option or have access to grounded reversals which you may not want to deal with so you might want to reset in the air or snap the character out and get an incoming. Tl;dr I'm cool with set play but my main fighting game has way more disgusting things to deal with than set play so it's fine with me.
Any modern game recs you have that handle this in an interesting way like Unist? This has kinda helped me realize why Strive has heen frustrating me despite how much i love the game. (Especially as someone with a bad reaction time the amount of guesses or quick reaction mixups in that game is brutal)
Hmm. I must say I was expecting to feel much harsher after that video due to how much I truly love setplay, but after watching the whole video through, I have to say I get it. Maybe its because I've recently taken a major dive into UNI2, but I absolutely understand where this is coming from, and even though I think that both styles are cool and should exist, it is sad to see how much that final point is right. Setplay has become less about discovering some nasty mix-up yourself and more about finding it on twitter, to the point where it is starting to lose some of that unique expression it started off as. My favorite games are the ones that can implement setplay but really make it noticable how much damage or in other cases resources you lose out on to create the situation. Some examples I can think of are Kanji from P4AU and BBTAG, Robo-Fortune in Skullgirls, and funny enough Yuzu in UNI2 lol. Even though my set ups typically go along the lines of more gimmicky rather than your good ol fashion guaranteed nasty setplay, Its the levels that come off of those gimmicks and the habits it forces on the player that makes it engaging to keep playing with, which kind of connects both points at the end funnily enough.
I know this sounds weird, but what if when you got knocked down you can just.... not stand up 😮 This way you can make all the opponent's setplay whiff over you
I play Arakune in Blazblue Centralfiction and Love the character to bits, everything from his voice lines and animations. He was my first introduction to setplay. But i feel like its not a Character I can play for very long, I need breaks from him and play other characters with different styles like Hazama
I feel set play should be punishable through reversals and such , I find the spinning plant a good example because if do janky things like timing when you get back up its very punshable through mid air attacks.
Setplay si the setup you saw someone post unexplained on twitter that for some reason never works in training mode until you eventually find another player of that character to ask and its the one thing you never thought to try that fixes it. (Yes this is me complaining about me not understanding grimnir fuzzy setups from various twitter clips and trying to recreate them.)
"if you aren't forced to block a mixup, it isn't setplay". Hm, that sounds like just very strong mix? My definition for setplay is you're "set"ting something else on the screen - additional hitboxes on the screen ie, projectiles, traps, summons, etc. (continuing vid). aha, "setup" for setplay. interesting how ignorant pressure often comes from projectiles/extra hitboxes
Ky in Strive does have setplay. Sort of. After a knockdown, you can CSE jump into a falling j.H, which from here allows Ky a variety of high/low and throw options. The funny thing is that it's not truly setplay because all this truly is is air to ground pressure, but Ky has so many options that you might as well consider it setplay.
What Ky has with CSE is enforced pressure. He has the good enforcing tool but not frequent 50/50 mix. This just gives another turn of pressure. Setplay is about true guess mixups and confirming regardless of what they do. It's highly in their favor. Millia and I-No disc/note enforces the mixups they have, will do it indefinitely if successful, and as long as they do it correctly they can slightly alter their mix however they want to make it even harder to guess.
@JuIianRock I'm not gonna pretend I know everything about Ky or fighting games so instead I'm gonna say what I meant and what I was responding to. Basically I'm saying Ky has this cool thing off some knockdowns but his character design/game design doesn't seem to line up to my standards for setplay. That's it. Wall of text for the rest bc I don't feel like getting re-asked. Setplay is a broad term but just throwing something on their wakeup and moving up to them isn't a setplay strategy on its own imo. It's just a good meaty. It's just saying "Hey I'm plus here and good at maintaining it" There's nothing else to it. You get extended pressure in your favor, maybe you bait something out and you move on. This is what Ky appears to be doing with CSE. Ky doing CSE > microwalk/shimmy in the corner is this. He can threaten throw or call out defenses, but it's an adaptation. This is still scary af and not a downgrade in anyway. Ky doing CSE > jump-in as described in the comment is just air-to-ground pressure that might happen to open you up. Is it a true mixup or is it just "ok I have to deal with another round of pressure but from a jump-in"? I genuinely don't know but that's just what it looks to me. Setplay is stronger. It does everything I just said but with true guess mixup options + covers defensive options automatically + able to confirm the situation at little to no risk to you + able to repeat it on hit. It turns the knockdown and setup into a subject of its own. You need to know the differences between Millia throw > disc, versus close 2D > disc, versus far 2D > disc, and so on. Then you have to know how each mixup works and she has more than enough mixups that ALSO work as adaptations. Is it fake or real for each situation. What is the situation after the mix? And if you straight up don't know, it opens up so many opportunities. I think CSE is more apparent that than and I don't see Ky looping CSE offense. Maybe every once in a while, he gets a good knockdown after a real combo with RC or air hit Foudre then gets an okay mixup attempt with CSE oki. Or maybe every so often he can do a weird RC drift mixup. But it's like a one time thing with terms & conditions. I know a little bit more about XRD Ky who IS capable of looping grinder/CSE oki into protected mixup. He can also get CSE much more easily. The CSE on its own is still the same good meaty into extended pressure. Grinder CSE is way more plus but it's still just "oh I have to block A LOT" But with YRC or knockdown with grinder hit Ky can reliably force setplay. True 50/50 that can be altered in high level against people who try to defend in particular ways. And he can keep doing it because XRD system is built to sustain it. That's setplay.
When your opponent gets an opening, would you rather a small conversion into 50/50 mix, or just take a combo where the damage is equal to the small combo + whatever damage winning the 50/50 would’ve done? I think both answers are valid, but I also think it helps narrow down why someone might dislike setplay. Whether it’s just the feeling of being in the blender or how much reward they are potentially getting off an opening.
Personally very bias as a Millia and zato player in strive, but I think ultimately, it’s approx 50% ur fault for giving me an opening in neutral in the first place 🤷♂️😂
I think the point would be that setplay characters aren't playing the same game as you, as with any "unorthodox" archetype. setplay characters (should) struggle in neutral and have god awful defense so letting them start their offense on you means you have already lost. and if you guess correctly against setplay characters, you are usually put back into neutral where they're at a disadvantage. so the enjoyment of fighting against or using setplay characters is being able to enjoy different matchups and being able to adapt. it adds another layer to the mindgames but to reach the stage where probing your opponent would even be applicable, you have to adjust to the right mindset first. so maybe this barrier or delay to being able to immediately "play the fighting game" would make setplay unappealing to some. or maybe when you've played so many, you'd rather just get into the heat of things. I like setplay though. doing irrational things as a rushdown character can only branch out in so many ways but gambling as a setplay character has much more variance, and is usually exceptionally polarizing. it's like a more raw form of the "fuck it we ball" other archetypes have but escalated much further by how setplay characters can keep enforcing their pressure or immediately dies when they've gambled away their resources and screen position. it's a much more interesting mindgames when the reads you have to make become increasingly more niche and specific (especially when you lack a meterless reversal)
I agree with how someone else in the comments put it, the set play loop is like a reward. I won neutral, I won the footsie game, I've put you in this scenario that I've planned and labbed, now... HOLD MY MIX😂 Jokes aside that's my favorite part about SP, when I'm playing a char that rewards the other aspects of my play and planning(the setup) boom, dopamine hit. This whole vid is valid tho and when SP becomes brain dead I agree, it sucks and can get boring
I’m definitely rather sheltered as a UNI player. I think I would grow to detest setplay that was as strong as some of the older footage you showed. Even within UNI, I strongly disliked Hilda’s gloom 50/50. But of course, I’ve played Vatista for a considerable amount of time, so it seems hypocritical, right? I think for me, the interaction points of high/low setplay boil down to risk/reward. If there’s no risk to either option and both options do similar damage and loop the situation, it’s a stale coin flip. There’s also the factors of execution, matchup knowledge, whether or not the setup can be done safely against reversals, and so on. Incidentally, now that Hilda’s overhead option on her 50/50 is fully punishable on shield, I’ve found myself enjoying the matchup more than I ever have before. They have to make a read on my defense or risk getting punished for autopiloting the stronger mixup. Those interaction points are really important to keeping both players engaged. I think there is plenty of room for player interaction within setplay just like there is in strike/throw. …and that last sentence is why I’m clearly sheltered 😂
example from my main game, pokemon close combat: mienshao's setplay is a mixup between an instant divekick and a sweep, both of which are punishable on block. landing a sweep with no follow-up builds a single third of your meter, which does not fill automatically. the divekick combos into sweep. in order to meaningfully cash out damage on the divekick, you need 1 bar of meter. in order to meaningfully cash out damage on the sweep, you need 2 bars in the corner or 3 bars midscreen. this means that taking the sweep is a far better decision in the short term, but still leads to meter piling up for it to eventually nuke you off a cashout.
I’ve kinda always had mixed feelings about these kinds of mix mainly because of my dad playing Rachel in blazblue and having George run me over before questionable game design unseeable mix but I do think the Rachel thing adds to my thoughts because as much as I think it’s bs I respect it cause it flipping hard and you have to put in the hours and I guess that’s the thing if the mix is hard I like it if it’s not I don’t, but all and all I think setplay should stay if at least for the feeling dedicated new players get from learning this cool mix even if they’ll realistically never get to use it
keep in mind i dont play to many different fighting games, but Strive millia is interesting to me. You can pretty much react to anything she does after disk, BUT, only when you see it coming. It's the difference between reacting to a light turning green and you pressing a button. And a light turning one of 8 different colors and you pressing the corresponding one. If I use one of 2 basic mixups every time after disk, they can react to that. But when i start using others, ones that arent actually safe, then i get through. But i use those too much, and they can get me back. AND THEN is the time, when they wait for the most stupid triple deluxe hyper mixup, that you just hit them with the normal one. Its great
I feel like setplay died with Xrd because of info availability. Trying to lab setups for a character like Ramlethal was very difficult but rewarding Now every setup is figured out in a week. Modern games keep the balance by nerfing the reward, but they could up the raw difficulty instead. that would be cool
Hey howdy, future fighting game dev here (hopefully) A lot of my characters have extremely fucked up moves, nigh impossible to react to standing over head is in the main character's most fundamental moveset. The reason why I feel I can get away with this is because blocking is *winning.* In most modern fighters, you can't have fucked up setplay and mixups if you are not willing to heavily reward the defending player. As with real life, if you want to swing a right hook, you have to first open up your right side. My game possesses a universal dodge. Not a coward's upper body invuln like Granblue or Guilty Gear, it is frame 1 full invuln, which forces the opponent who triggers said dodge to be stuck in their recovery afterward. There also exists strike invuln rolls back or forward. In addition, there are limited to no cancel routes on block that allow the defender to pretty well always punish on block. All of this is so that when I make a character that is two fully controllable fighting game characters versus your shoto with three full movesets and absurdly active proJectiles I can call it fair and 100% mean it.
Sometimes, I just wanna be a bully but there are cases where set play goes to far for my tastes, it’s why I prefer fighting I-NO in +R to Xrd since her oki is way stronger in Xrd vertical chemical love YRC
I'm surprised you didnt extend this video to oki in general, since its not like you *need* setplay for oki to devolve into random guessing. Even in modern games like Type Lumina players are forced to guess left/right since like every char has some L/R off really basic enders like airthrow. It's not *as* binary as L/R since you can shield which autocorrects, but shield as an option mostly just extends the decision-making to left/right/shield on both sides. It's not really getting more interesting. That was one of the big reasons I kinda stopped playing the game; Running powerful oki in general, even if no setplay is involved, is super boring and frustrating to deal with. The fact that a simple guess like this rewards the offender with a combo equivalent to a neutral win is really strange to me, and feels super bad imo. One of the big reasons UNI clicked for me was because that kind of oki was impossible (or at least more difficult, less universally applicable) in the game since you can just delay tech. There is still strong oki of course, but not to the same incredibly boring and binary extent, since you can always just delay tech.
In Type Luminas defense, you have way more options once you get up than in UNI. Shield, Backdash and Heat are all universal and all cover different offensive option selects. As much as I like UNI there are setups that'll cover any wakeup timing, not to mention restands.
@@hijster479 Apparently youtube nuked my last reply so in case 2 show up that's why. Backdash doesn't work against L/Rs because you don't know where to backdash to, so that one doesn't really work out. Heat doesn't work a lot of the time. 2A > Shield OS exists and everyone runs that. So at that point you have to Charge Heat, which becomes reactable, which means Shield and Heat are both beaten the same way. We end up with the same L/R/(Shield+Heat) situation, which imo blows. What setups in UNI cover any wakeup timing? I know about the Hilda H/L which just has you blocking so your wakeup timing doesn't matter. Reading the original post again it was definitely inaccurate to say these setups are "impossible" in UNI - should've said they were "less universally prevalent", which in turn makes the game more enjoyable for me personally.
@@fluury Backdash get's you out of shield os's, As you mentioned Shield covers L/R, and heat beats most standard safejumps and whiff cancels. If you're really that pressed to escape you can MD, which really only loses to throw. Yes, all of these options have counterplay, but it's impossible to cover all of them even with safejumps or meaty projectiles. UNI's universal defense is much worse, so not only are safejumps and meaty projectiles way scarier, but even standard meaties can be nigh inescapable. Linnes 5A recovers fast enough to block VO or punish backdash/creeping edge. In fact in CLR she could meaty 5B (which is +1 at best) to os VO/backdash and frame trap into a 5A that also os's VO/backdash. And before you say delay tech, the framekill used for this setup leads to a safejump against delay tech, and can be used after A Dragon Fang, Linnes most common ender for metered routes. I'd Also like to stress that this is possible for *Linne* a relatively average character in terms of oki and pressure. To be fair, all of this is much easier said than done, most oki you'll run into in actual matches is nowhere near this complex. But even if the aggressor doesn't know or messes up a setup, you simply don't get rewarded as much for defense. Backdash and Creeping edge are almost always minus, so it's still their turn, and VO deals no damage. With the exception of Heat the comparable options in Type Lumina lead to more reliable punishes. And Heat is harder to bait (its unblockable and guard cancellable), and more rewarding (you get regen and it pauses the clock), so it's still slightly better than VO. Even the character specific defensive options are subtly worse. You can't combo from most reversals without CS, EX Command grabs have no preflash startup, and reversals are generally slower, especially in UNI2. Not saying this to knock UNI, I also prefer it over Type Lumina, but I like how you always have options to escape in TL. The offense is way more oppressive, but if you make the right read on defense you can turn the tables. UNI offense is much easier to react to but also harder to challenge, so Ironically it has had more inescapable setups. You could get out of Maids unblockables from day one in TL, Seths didn't have universal counterplay until UNI2. And UNI2 still has setups that are at least guaranteed chip. P.S I think TH-cam nuked the first version of this reply too :/
@@hijster479 Yes, backdash gets you out of the shield OS - but again, you don't know where to backdash to - it's a L/R. Guess wrong, and you will dash into their 2A, it's the same problem. MD is a fair mention, though. I forgot about it! Though it still kinda gets toasted the same way counterplay vs. shield gets toasted, since its -2. I guess you at least don't eat an entire combo. I can't really follow you regarding your description of Linnes oki. It's not like players have two tech timings, ASAP and the super late auto-getup - you can delay it by a complete, variable amount of time, right? How can you safejump if your opponent simply delays their tech by like 3 frames? Or 5? or 10? Or meaty. The entire concept of a meaty doesn't work because if your opponent just delays their tech by a few frames - they'll get up to you having whiffed your button (Specifically looking at the single hit example you brought up with Linne 5B). Regardless of how short the recovery is, the entire concept just gets beaten by slightly delaying your wakeup and not abiding by set timings. I can't comment on the older UNI games - I'm specifically writing this with UNI2 in mind since that's the only one I've really played (thanks rollback). But I really can't wrap my head around a lot of the stuff you're saying. Both safejumps and meaties are by virtue of the variable delay timing strategies you can't rely on.
@@fluury While variable, teching still has a set amount of frames. You can change the timing but it's still reactable, especially with frame kills/safe jumps. Basically if you don't tech during the safejump/framekill I can react and wait until you do. You also can't delay indefinitely, after enough frames I'll know you did a normal getup and time my oki based on that. most As and some Bs are fast enough to meaty on reaction. Again most players aren't doing this, and even the ones that do occasionally mess up, but it still covers practically everything when it works. There's no universal way to guess right and get a punish, at best you're simply preventing mixups that are already mostly reactable.
Jedah Dohma indirectly changed fighting games forever when he introduced trap style projectiles that linger into High/Low… and he wasn’t even that good
Another good vid! I'm not a fan of setplay for the same reason I'm not a fan of long combos: you're not really fighting the other player, you're kinda just doing DMC combos against a training dummy.
I think setplay is at its best when it isn’t safe. Where you can run your mixups, but if the opponent uses a reversal you lose unless you bait it out. It’s then a game about making your opponent respect your offense and punishing them hard when they try to mash so that you can run your insane mixups. This is what a lot (not all) of the setplay in skullgirls is like. Characters will have insane 4 way mixups, but you have to make them respect you in order to run it. Reversal safe setplay is a lot less interesting
Ill note that to my Fighting game concept
Every time i heard brain rot *safe jump loops*
I mean most setplay is risky. Unless you have privliged ass normals that give you mix at range or some of your mix is just inherently DP safe, Or if a character doesn’t have an invincible reversal. If thats the case though something about them was bullshit enough to warrant it.
Setplay is inherently a reward. You need to set it up before you can reap the benefits. I think setplay becomes a problem when its too easy to access; you should earn it after youve thoroughly read the opponent. And I think setplay is more interesting as a reward for making a hard read than just big damage.
Nerf setplay by making it harder to access, not removing it. Make the heavy knockdown require a specific starter thats riskier to use, make the setup require the corner, etc.
> make the knockdown require a specific starter that's riskier to use
This is why I don't mind sweeps in Tekken. You get a knockdown and oki. If I block it, I get to full combo you. Remove launching lows please
I have nothing of worth to add, but shoutouts to Hol Horse from Jojos Heritage to the Future.
He doesn’t have setplay. He just unblockables you on oki. Can’t even dp it since you can only block for your first frame waking up.
Aaaand he’s lower mid tier because that’s pretty much all he has, and over half the cast has a “press S to not get knocked down” button. HTTF is such a goofy ass game.
The light of neutral, shining down from heaven, incinerating the setplay and sending it back to the darkness from whence it came
Note: Setplay doesn't always involve unrreactable mixups. Actually, it's becoming more and mroe common that setplay characters don't have unrreactable mixups in newer FGs.
This is mostly true with setplay characters do use a proyectiles to limit the opponents defensive options, the typical examplex being Millia in Guilty Gear, while other characters without this feature have to take higher risks (like Chipp) but also have more brutal mixups. This is also the reason why Chipp often has better neutral than Millia, he's an all-out offensive character, while she's more of a carefully planned opportunistic character than can't do whatever she wants unless she knocks you down.
I'm more on the "Millia side" as I love forcing the opponent to block on wake up or to use desperate moves, but I don't care if my mixups are reactable. You would be surprised about how many people mash DPs against setplay proyectiles when the only thing I'm doing is waiting for them to do it LOL.
I'm mostly a French Bread player, so I play H-V.Akiha on MBAACC and Carmine on UNI2. I used to be a Millia main in Xrd and Strive.
the only highs and lows I wanna see are peoples emotions is a fire line, love the vid!
Well yes, I love layered offense and sometimes ignoring defenses :3
Anyways, I love the kind of setplay that's more "extra RPS" than "free 50/50" but it's okay if I like them :3c
i like that everytime i open someone with my millia setplay in strive, an evil villainous laugh comes from the bottom of my heart
You did mention how it's much toned down in modern games, and I definitely am a biased strive baby Millia player, but in that context I don't agree that mixups in setplay are total guesses with the player's interactions and intentions completely irrelevant.
You can pick out the player's tendencies even from those decisions -
if I choose to crossup on Millia's H disc, depending on the spacing I'm making it easier or harder to pick up the combo once I land.
If I go high, I get a much more damaging combo, with the option of cutting it shorter and going back into the mix if it hits, as well as more air options to go for risky and unexpected high options if it's blocked.
On the other hand, if I go low all I get is a 2K2D into more mix.
If I want to go for high damage with a more unseeable mixup, unless I'm an execution god, I have to completely skip the high/low and be ready to pick up with a close slash as soon as I land.
If I'm closer to the corner, if I want to wallbreak I'd have to stay on the same side and and go high. But if I want to get greedy and go for another mix that could kill, I'm more likely to cross up, since cornering them will limit my mixup options next time.
All of those things are decisions and tendencies people call me out for, and that I can recognize and punish. It's obviously not as interactive and mind-gamey as normal pressure, but I don't think it's fair to dismiss as "literally just guessing"
Good points! I think I-no has something similar - her repeated 50/50s (multiple air attacks into ambiguous high/low) require a lot of commitment, while she doesnt get much off her throw
Nah don't discount your opinion here, you absolutely cooked. A factor for them on defense as well may be if I block high and they hit low, I still take less damage than if I block high etc etc, it's a guessing game but one with intention.
@@pooply3053yeah - uneven rewards for RPS. it's what makes great mixups in fighters
Something that also cant be forgotten is that some player may not know of this kind of minutiae which makes it look more like a 50/50. Smh skill issue /j
the problem with this perspective is that setplay isn't RNG because like you said, fighting games are about learning your opponent and getting into their head, and humans can't effectively make completely random decisions because of inherent bias. people will always lean toward one option in a 50/50, and it's your job to find out how to deal with it. also, unless the mixup hits on the exact same frame, fuzzy blocking is a thing that exists.
From my (very amateur) perspective, typical setplay isn't too different from the Charlotta example. It's a 50/50 of whether you'll use your special to continue the combo, or reset the blockstring. When it comes to setplay characters, high-low is one type of decision-making - but left-right, strike-throw, and frame traps are also similar decisions that you have to react to. A lot of the time, they're just as guess-intensive and sometimes equally unreactable.
So, at least for me, high-low setplay is just another type of punishing decision to deal with.
I was thinking the same thing. I think the difference has to do with the actual setup, and that setplay situations are typically more advantageous to the attacker. But ultimately, whether it's a high/low 50/50 or a choice between dodging and not dodging, both players have a choice to make in these situations, not based on reactions but on prediction of what the other will do.
The video from my understanding comes mainly from a place of risk. Pretty much every example of set play in the video involves a mixup protected by a projectile. Even if the offense itself fails, the player is completely safe from all repercussions for that one time and can continue to keep going afterwards.
This is a big difference from the Charlotta example because the mixup has a big fat risk attached to it. Especially if the 5H coming afterwards is executed as a frame trap and not as a wait-and-see.
This extends to the modern/older differences of setplay as well. In older games, if you played a set play character, you could setup on almost any knockdown. In newer games though, you can't actually set a projectile and do a fully protected 50/50 mixup off on most knockdowns. It's only on very specific knockdowns that they can do that.
Setplay has always been my "Drinking buddy" in fighting games, I don't acually look for it most of the times but it always ends up being a part of most of the characters I like to play. I hate dealing with it tho, but that's cuz I suck at rolling the dice lmao.
The 2:52 quote is what I live for. A damn shame modern games generally discourage blocking… it makes it less fun for me.
Daz talk about fighting games without making it sound like BDSM challenge
You have no idea how many weird sounding sentences I had to take out
[Me realizing the A.B.A. inspired Setplay Character (WIP name Night Servant) I am designing READS like a slave carrying his vampire master coffin] OH...
@@Ramsey276one just lean into it man. Not every piece of fiction has to be clean and moral, sometimes characters coming across as creepy and fucked up can make them more interesting and contribute to their appeal
@@Dastankbeets9486 Fun bit of his Perfect Win animation:
[Coffin opens and HE neck catches him] *WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS?*
(Want to know? Get the ending!)
XD
@@Ramsey276one characters wielding coffins are always a cool idea. I saw on in a roblox game once when I was young and the idea has stuck out in my head ever since. I came up with a similar character and someone made an awesome animation of him
th-cam.com/video/9vF6m5EhVDI/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
Setplay can also be seen as part of a character's reward for playing their character well. Kind of like an extension of a combo that only works sometimes depending on if you can RPS the opponent. If you like the mind games of RPS and the rush of being able to say "I know what you think I'm going to do because I showed you something in the past"
Kind of similar to other mixups that are more 'honest' like strike throw but you get that feeling more consistently due to how the character works.
There are times where I wish Merkava had more pressure potential up close rather than a kinda finnicky high-low that is easy to mess up.
Setplay only becomes an issue when the character can negate most system options while doing the unreactable mixup, or if said system options are lacking (for example if parries, projectile cross-up protection, guard cancels, screen freezes and similar tools do not exist).
Unreactable mixups aren't bad by themselves, they are bad when they remove most windows of interaction.
Also, setplay should be distinguished from unreactable mixups, as it can create confusion for new players. Setplay is about putting a hitbox in your opponent and acting while it's active. Unreactable mixups aren't the same as setplay, you can have a normal strike unreactable left/right by walking under or manipulating collision boxes, but you're (usually) still vulnerable to reversal options (if either the buffer allows for a two sided DP, or if the game has a 22DP/invul flashkick).
There's also hard to react setplay that always gets people, there's always unreactable OSable setups and etc.
Your definition also isn't good when we talk about games with small throw tech windows and little to no throw protection, making it way easier to catch fuzzy throw/mash/jump, either you guess right there if the character gets a safejump into this situation or you lose.
It's really a matter of battle system design, not a setplay issue. People do not like absurdly skewed RPS situations because it's corny, but that's not exclusive to setplay.
I enjoy setplay as long as it doesn't repeat insantly. I see it like nothing more than another type of combo: too long it becomes solo playing, short and concise is fair punishment.
So happy to see someone going to bat (no pun intended lol) for heart-based play! Definitely my favorite part of fighting games. It's why I like platform fighters so much - it's basically high-octane air footsies.
i am a setplay enjoyer, i am sorry. it is really funny watching someone eat my wakeup pressure and get exploded for losing the 50/50. i am evil
I enjoy "light" setplay. I like to play neutral style char that have "setups" available to them. Baiken with tatami safe jumps, ky with post-knockdown h fireball setups, belial with his corner fireball setups, ed vtrigger setups, zeku bird setups. I like the opponent to have to sit still for me to start a blockstring, but i don't need crazy mixx off of it.
My favorite content creator of fighting game videos
relatable
I also used to like setplay a lot back when I first started fighting games, because what better way to fight an opponent than having complete control of the situation. But as I played more I learned that I love getting in my opponent's head and making them hesitate/manipulate them into doing what I want, and that made fights more dynamic and interesting for me. Though I still like setplay every once in a while when it's not too excesive, like Carl in BBCF putting you in 15 mixups in the span of 3 seconds. Found out that having the ability to create a looping situation where only one player gets to have fun is not really engaging design, and I think developers did so too.
As an ardent setplay enjoyer, I think that the power level of offense/oki needs to be intentionally tuned, and accounted for in the game's defensive mechanics. Games like CF let characters do a lot, but a lot of the funny vortex will lose to common secondary defensive habbits, and tbe characters who bypass those options are usually universally very difficult and make concessions with how their oki works (or make massive concessions in neutral). A lot of the worst setplay experiences I've had are games where the offense just has no buissness being in the respective game. High stakes pressure is fun, but checkmates arent.
As a C-Kohaku main and a Kohaku main in lumina I am quite the setplay enjoyer.
Theres just something about putting the opponent in a guessing game grinder.
Recently I've realised that setplay is the only time I feel like I'm
In control in a fighting game. It's why I gravitate towards that kind of character. In the neutral I always feel like I'm supposed to respond to what the opponent is doing instead of doing my own thing because I'm scared of getting hit out.
That's why against good players who can escape setplay I get really frustrated and I'm trying to be more proactive in what I'm doing in the rest of the game.
4:49 what is this song here??? i felt like ive heard it before
After watching your fireball video I should’ve known I’d love these
i think akuma in 3rd strike does a setplay character pretty well. he can set up some fucked up mix and resets, buts its not always safe, can be parried, and is high execution. and if akuma messes it up, he just explodes
always love these vids, i would say my favorite setplay character is xrd ram. her neutral is hard to play she has semi high execution and then her corner pressure is really good without feeling hopless but just on the cusp of it so you don't give up because theres always a chance to escape if you can catch on to the patterns that the ram runs.
It's always so disorienting seeing your SF6 footage because it's actually high enough bit rate not to immediately turn into a blotchy mess of compression artifacts
I want to see a character who plays with the idea of what setplay is. Getting into a vortex is piss easy and they have a full wealth of mixup options, but their mix is entirely reactable. Slow, even. You need to become unpredictable to get that feeling of a 25/25/25/25 mixup, and they have tools to help them get there in the form of, say, an install super or level up system that makes their mix harder and harder to react to as the match continues. Make reducing the match to rock paper scissors feel earned, basically. If I'm stuck in a vortex of four way mixups and feel like I have to guess, I'm less frustrated because I know that they got there through my fuck ups. I screwed up when I could react much easier, and this is the consequences of my failure to block.
I feel like that also plays with the more psychological aspects of mix and vortexes. The opponent knows that if they fuck up blocking the four way mix early, then they're in for vortex hell later. This creates more pressure, making them more prone to mistakes. Mistakes you then capitalize on by landing those early mix ups and getting your setplay snowball rolling.
3:20 “well not always” cuts to dstar hitting the sweet 50/50 triangle jump
Also what match is this? Ive never seen a eu marg so i wanna see how they play
This was fun to watch while sick.
I think you're conflating setplay, mixups, 50/50s, and unreactable mixup. Sometimes it's all 4, like Millia's strongest knockdowns, but those situations are few and far between.
Even there, it's not that different from making a hard read on an opponent's dodge or wake-up DP. That being said, I do agree with the overall point of FGs being richer with unreactable high-low being less prevalent (unreactable throw usually is risky enough to be ok). BBCF is my favorite example of (mostly) reactable offense, with the exception of a few characters.
Until now I was under the impression that "Setplay" was an archetype for "places pieces and creates advantageous situations with careful planning", like characters who can place down traps and the like. Bedman and Venom in Xrd, Liselotte and Scharlachrot in AH3, Rachel and Mu in BBCF. That sort of thing.
The definition used in this video was pretty dubious, yeah. The whole formula for setplay is 1) Create an advantageous situation that allows you setup time - usually through a knockdown, but this could also take the form of projectiles or traps to keep an enemy at bay. 2) Perform your setup - usually a delayed or long-lasting projectile of some sort. 3) Using the lockdown time provided by the setup, perform a mixup, which may or may not loop back into 1. What defines this as its own archetype rather than just ordinary okizeme that any character can do is that the entire character is built around achieving the requisite setup, and typically without that setup their ability to open up an opponent is limited.
Setplay doesn't have to be unreactable, as the video implied. Good setplay usually is, but that's just mixups in general. Good mix requires your opponent to guess right, while bad mix is usually just a knowledge or reaction check.
I guess because I started with anime games I've always thought of setplay as putting down a projectile and then doing a 50/50, but I've heard SF commentators refer to luke landing a meaty jab as setplay so idk
@midorixiv yeah idk why they do that. Since SF games have ACTUAL setplay characters (Ibuki, Menat, Rose, Akira, Gill, and Dhalsim for SFV. Kimberly, Blanka, and JP in SF6)
When i saw the title for this video, i knew 100% Yu Narukami would be mentioned somewhere that character was a menace in the original p4. He was really fun to play and learn all his set play variations with 5D.
I feel like set play and read there are also just as important a part as for example the reset for Charlotte. And neutral mind games focused around avoiding setplay are also important. It's all a part of what makes fighting games great having those factors. Navigating neutral to avoid mix, and try to start our own are just more factors in the mindegames you mention.
If all FGC knowledge was lost in a great purge and this was the only resource available for me to teach a beginner-intermediate player about the concept of setplay, I probably wouldn't use it.
Maybe I'm not *exactly* the most intelligent in terms of this discussion, considering I'd say I only have like 1 or 2 years of actual practical FG experience where I actually fully understood what I was doing, and I still panic in rushdown situations to the point of almost having IRL anxiety attacks due to how often these games can trigger sensory overload, especially when I'm unfamiliar with a title.
But I tend to be the type of player who really enjoys looking for opponents tendencies, even if I'm bad at it. I likely couldn't tell you exactly what or why I think an opponent will do something, I usually end up to overwhelmed to gain that info, but I can oftentimes get a *feeling* that they'll press something unsafe, or fall for some stagger pressure or the like. Despite that I tend to drift towards characters with setplay elements, but usually use them to maintain my turn, rather than set up a mixup. An example is Beerus in DBFZ, who is undoubtedly my favorite main from any FG, except maybe Merkava. Usually when using his orbs, I tend to place them on top of my opponent on knockdown, if I don't feel like cashing out meter for damage, and instead use that to reposition, or start a new blockstring, and use the short period I have to gauge the situation to regain my bearings. I tend to usually end up using stagger pressure to open up my opponent instead, or just tossing out a reversal if I think they're likely going to mash into it. This may be unfamiliarity with the character, as I don't have much familiarity with his orb mixups, but I tend to find this lets me play a character I like, while also using his tools to help cover some of my weaknesses.
I believe you need an extremely high IQ to do setplay. The cognitive requirement of killing frames from pressing buttons in order to get your mixups is something not everyone can do. If you aren't of the genius persuasion, you may just end up with questions to answers. I consider vortex to be the Mozart of fighting games, extraordinarily intelligent, but with subtle hints that only the truly wise can appreciate. Thank you for listening to my questions. Hopefully you'll find answers. By the way, English isn't my first language, hope you all understand.
Loud and clear. Well done!
Reminds me of King Dedede gordo ledge traps in Smash. You have to react to the Gordo because it will punish you for hanging, you have an exact amount of time to do press the button, and there are only 2 (,for most characters) options that don't get beaten by it and dont require amazing timing, roll and jump.
As Dedede, you are big, slow, heavy, and bad in every situation that is not this one single scenario that you spend all match getting to over and over.
And everytime you do, you become impossible to deal with without eating TONS of damage or potentially a stock, and they HAVE to react tp it because they cannot just wait defensively.
That's why I love that character.
Does that count as a fprm of setplay?
I love setplay personally I think it opens up more avenues for making the game interesting. I love the feeling of trying to outwit my adversary by either throwing up something and getting the mix up or by going for fake out.
As a Skullgirls player I don't care too much about set play since I rarely see it. The game is built on resets and mixups but very few characters actually have set play and most isn't even worth doing cause there is normally a better mix up you could do. That being said the characters that do have set play I enjoy watching and playing because it is different than the normal mix I have to see and deal with. I do Dahlia's sliding knockdown and fire a shot and make you take a right left is fine with me and fun but that's cause in sg you don't have to respect that if you play certain characters or have meter. Skullgirls is a game where you try to get your opponent not to mash on your resets while they try not to give in. That dahlia example isn't the only set play this character has and if any character would fall into set play she would be closest but to be very honest I consider her more of a neutral based footsies character than a set play one. Plus any character who has access to a hard knockdown can right left with an assist but most people won't for for that option as it lets your opponent have time to think of an option or have access to grounded reversals which you may not want to deal with so you might want to reset in the air or snap the character out and get an incoming.
Tl;dr I'm cool with set play but my main fighting game has way more disgusting things to deal with than set play so it's fine with me.
Any modern game recs you have that handle this in an interesting way like Unist?
This has kinda helped me realize why Strive has heen frustrating me despite how much i love the game. (Especially as someone with a bad reaction time the amount of guesses or quick reaction mixups in that game is brutal)
just started getting into melty blood maining ckoha and this video gets recommended, anyways nice vid!
Keep it up brother, banger after banger!
Hmm. I must say I was expecting to feel much harsher after that video due to how much I truly love setplay, but after watching the whole video through, I have to say I get it. Maybe its because I've recently taken a major dive into UNI2, but I absolutely understand where this is coming from, and even though I think that both styles are cool and should exist, it is sad to see how much that final point is right. Setplay has become less about discovering some nasty mix-up yourself and more about finding it on twitter, to the point where it is starting to lose some of that unique expression it started off as. My favorite games are the ones that can implement setplay but really make it noticable how much damage or in other cases resources you lose out on to create the situation. Some examples I can think of are Kanji from P4AU and BBTAG, Robo-Fortune in Skullgirls, and funny enough Yuzu in UNI2 lol. Even though my set ups typically go along the lines of more gimmicky rather than your good ol fashion guaranteed nasty setplay, Its the levels that come off of those gimmicks and the habits it forces on the player that makes it engaging to keep playing with, which kind of connects both points at the end funnily enough.
I know this sounds weird, but what if when you got knocked down you can just.... not stand up 😮
This way you can make all the opponent's setplay whiff over you
I play Arakune in Blazblue Centralfiction and Love the character to bits, everything from his voice lines and animations. He was my first introduction to setplay. But i feel like its not a Character I can play for very long, I need breaks from him and play other characters with different styles like Hazama
I feel set play should be punishable through reversals and such , I find the spinning plant a good example because if do janky things like timing when you get back up its very punshable through mid air attacks.
Setplay si the setup you saw someone post unexplained on twitter that for some reason never works in training mode until you eventually find another player of that character to ask and its the one thing you never thought to try that fixes it. (Yes this is me complaining about me not understanding grimnir fuzzy setups from various twitter clips and trying to recreate them.)
0:11 my newbie mald was spotted
"if you aren't forced to block a mixup, it isn't setplay". Hm, that sounds like just very strong mix? My definition for setplay is you're "set"ting something else on the screen - additional hitboxes on the screen ie, projectiles, traps, summons, etc. (continuing vid).
aha, "setup" for setplay. interesting how ignorant pressure often comes from projectiles/extra hitboxes
Ky in Strive does have setplay. Sort of.
After a knockdown, you can CSE jump into a falling j.H, which from here allows Ky a variety of high/low and throw options. The funny thing is that it's not truly setplay because all this truly is is air to ground pressure, but Ky has so many options that you might as well consider it setplay.
That's oki bot set play
What Ky has with CSE is enforced pressure. He has the good enforcing tool but not frequent 50/50 mix. This just gives another turn of pressure.
Setplay is about true guess mixups and confirming regardless of what they do. It's highly in their favor.
Millia and I-No disc/note enforces the mixups they have, will do it indefinitely if successful, and as long as they do it correctly they can slightly alter their mix however they want to make it even harder to guess.
@JuIianRock I'm not gonna pretend I know everything about Ky or fighting games so instead I'm gonna say what I meant and what I was responding to.
Basically I'm saying Ky has this cool thing off some knockdowns but his character design/game design doesn't seem to line up to my standards for setplay. That's it.
Wall of text for the rest bc I don't feel like getting re-asked.
Setplay is a broad term but just throwing something on their wakeup and moving up to them isn't a setplay strategy on its own imo. It's just a good meaty. It's just saying "Hey I'm plus here and good at maintaining it" There's nothing else to it.
You get extended pressure in your favor, maybe you bait something out and you move on. This is what Ky appears to be doing with CSE.
Ky doing CSE > microwalk/shimmy in the corner is this. He can threaten throw or call out defenses, but it's an adaptation. This is still scary af and not a downgrade in anyway.
Ky doing CSE > jump-in as described in the comment is just air-to-ground pressure that might happen to open you up. Is it a true mixup or is it just "ok I have to deal with another round of pressure but from a jump-in"? I genuinely don't know but that's just what it looks to me.
Setplay is stronger. It does everything I just said but with true guess mixup options + covers defensive options automatically + able to confirm the situation at little to no risk to you + able to repeat it on hit.
It turns the knockdown and setup into a subject of its own. You need to know the differences between Millia throw > disc, versus close 2D > disc, versus far 2D > disc, and so on. Then you have to know how each mixup works and she has more than enough mixups that ALSO work as adaptations. Is it fake or real for each situation. What is the situation after the mix? And if you straight up don't know, it opens up so many opportunities.
I think CSE is more apparent that than and I don't see Ky looping CSE offense. Maybe every once in a while, he gets a good knockdown after a real combo with RC or air hit Foudre then gets an okay mixup attempt with CSE oki. Or maybe every so often he can do a weird RC drift mixup. But it's like a one time thing with terms & conditions.
I know a little bit more about XRD Ky who IS capable of looping grinder/CSE oki into protected mixup. He can also get CSE much more easily. The CSE on its own is still the same good meaty into extended pressure. Grinder CSE is way more plus but it's still just "oh I have to block A LOT"
But with YRC or knockdown with grinder hit Ky can reliably force setplay. True 50/50 that can be altered in high level against people who try to defend in particular ways. And he can keep doing it because XRD system is built to sustain it. That's setplay.
Watching you talk about under night in birth meutral after just seeing your smash neutral video is a trip hahahaha
When your opponent gets an opening, would you rather a small conversion into 50/50 mix, or just take a combo where the damage is equal to the small combo + whatever damage winning the 50/50 would’ve done? I think both answers are valid, but I also think it helps narrow down why someone might dislike setplay. Whether it’s just the feeling of being in the blender or how much reward they are potentially getting off an opening.
Personally very bias as a Millia and zato player in strive, but I think ultimately, it’s approx 50% ur fault for giving me an opening in neutral in the first place 🤷♂️😂
I think the point would be that setplay characters aren't playing the same game as you, as with any "unorthodox" archetype. setplay characters (should) struggle in neutral and have god awful defense so letting them start their offense on you means you have already lost. and if you guess correctly against setplay characters, you are usually put back into neutral where they're at a disadvantage. so the enjoyment of fighting against or using setplay characters is being able to enjoy different matchups and being able to adapt. it adds another layer to the mindgames but to reach the stage where probing your opponent would even be applicable, you have to adjust to the right mindset first. so maybe this barrier or delay to being able to immediately "play the fighting game" would make setplay unappealing to some. or maybe when you've played so many, you'd rather just get into the heat of things.
I like setplay though. doing irrational things as a rushdown character can only branch out in so many ways but gambling as a setplay character has much more variance, and is usually exceptionally polarizing. it's like a more raw form of the "fuck it we ball" other archetypes have but escalated much further by how setplay characters can keep enforcing their pressure or immediately dies when they've gambled away their resources and screen position. it's a much more interesting mindgames when the reads you have to make become increasingly more niche and specific (especially when you lack a meterless reversal)
Great video man ❤
Song at 7:03?
I love strike/throw
14:43 I wander if more people would use milia install super if xrd was released today
I agree with how someone else in the comments put it, the set play loop is like a reward. I won neutral, I won the footsie game, I've put you in this scenario that I've planned and labbed, now... HOLD MY MIX😂
Jokes aside that's my favorite part about SP, when I'm playing a char that rewards the other aspects of my play and planning(the setup) boom, dopamine hit. This whole vid is valid tho and when SP becomes brain dead I agree, it sucks and can get boring
I’m definitely rather sheltered as a UNI player. I think I would grow to detest setplay that was as strong as some of the older footage you showed. Even within UNI, I strongly disliked Hilda’s gloom 50/50.
But of course, I’ve played Vatista for a considerable amount of time, so it seems hypocritical, right? I think for me, the interaction points of high/low setplay boil down to risk/reward. If there’s no risk to either option and both options do similar damage and loop the situation, it’s a stale coin flip. There’s also the factors of execution, matchup knowledge, whether or not the setup can be done safely against reversals, and so on.
Incidentally, now that Hilda’s overhead option on her 50/50 is fully punishable on shield, I’ve found myself enjoying the matchup more than I ever have before. They have to make a read on my defense or risk getting punished for autopiloting the stronger mixup. Those interaction points are really important to keeping both players engaged. I think there is plenty of room for player interaction within setplay just like there is in strike/throw.
…and that last sentence is why I’m clearly sheltered 😂
example from my main game, pokemon close combat:
mienshao's setplay is a mixup between an instant divekick and a sweep, both of which are punishable on block. landing a sweep with no follow-up builds a single third of your meter, which does not fill automatically. the divekick combos into sweep. in order to meaningfully cash out damage on the divekick, you need 1 bar of meter. in order to meaningfully cash out damage on the sweep, you need 2 bars in the corner or 3 bars midscreen. this means that taking the sweep is a far better decision in the short term, but still leads to meter piling up for it to eventually nuke you off a cashout.
I’ve kinda always had mixed feelings about these kinds of mix mainly because of my dad playing Rachel in blazblue and having George run me over before questionable game design unseeable mix but I do think the Rachel thing adds to my thoughts because as much as I think it’s bs I respect it cause it flipping hard and you have to put in the hours and I guess that’s the thing if the mix is hard I like it if it’s not I don’t, but all and all I think setplay should stay if at least for the feeling dedicated new players get from learning this cool mix even if they’ll realistically never get to use it
keep in mind i dont play to many different fighting games, but Strive millia is interesting to me. You can pretty much react to anything she does after disk, BUT, only when you see it coming. It's the difference between reacting to a light turning green and you pressing a button. And a light turning one of 8 different colors and you pressing the corresponding one. If I use one of 2 basic mixups every time after disk, they can react to that. But when i start using others, ones that arent actually safe, then i get through. But i use those too much, and they can get me back. AND THEN is the time, when they wait for the most stupid triple deluxe hyper mixup, that you just hit them with the normal one. Its great
I smiled when i saw that ibuki mix.
also I love set play!!!!!
kokonoe the goat!!!
Who is this mysterious fella with the handsome voice?
I feel like setplay died with Xrd because of info availability. Trying to lab setups for a character like Ramlethal was very difficult but rewarding
Now every setup is figured out in a week. Modern games keep the balance by nerfing the reward, but they could up the raw difficulty instead. that would be cool
Hey howdy, future fighting game dev here (hopefully)
A lot of my characters have extremely fucked up moves, nigh impossible to react to standing over head is in the main character's most fundamental moveset.
The reason why I feel I can get away with this is because blocking is *winning.*
In most modern fighters, you can't have fucked up setplay and mixups if you are not willing to heavily reward the defending player. As with real life, if you want to swing a right hook, you have to first open up your right side.
My game possesses a universal dodge. Not a coward's upper body invuln like Granblue or Guilty Gear, it is frame 1 full invuln, which forces the opponent who triggers said dodge to be stuck in their recovery afterward. There also exists strike invuln rolls back or forward. In addition, there are limited to no cancel routes on block that allow the defender to pretty well always punish on block.
All of this is so that when I make a character that is two fully controllable fighting game characters versus your shoto with three full movesets and absurdly active proJectiles I can call it fair and 100% mean it.
Wait guilty gear has a dodge mechanic? Anyways good luck on the game it sounds really interesting and I hope you the best on it!
@@appleandbees7652 Lol, please look at the hurtboxes on any 6A in the game. Not really a dodge yeah.
@@The-toast are you referring to 6P? Cause that’s not a dodge and more of an anti air in more titles
8:05
O
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XD
Sometimes, I just wanna be a bully but there are cases where set play goes to far for my tastes, it’s why I prefer fighting I-NO in +R to Xrd since her oki is way stronger in Xrd vertical chemical love YRC
"slow Overheads could be punished if they want to press shield" - because the shield will timeout before the OH hits? (Haven't played much unist)
RRRRRAAAAHHH uni mentioned
Setplay is only okay when I do it
-Robo-Ky player with no setplay
Also lets go skullgirls video next week
I wish I could say that I hate setplay, but I quit Zangief from SFV to 6 because he no longer gets oki on his SPD, so that'd be a lie.
So you just hate mixups?
Cool video!
when did ignorant start becoming a term used for fighting games? i've heard it a few times lately and it just sticks out as odd
I'm surprised you didnt extend this video to oki in general, since its not like you *need* setplay for oki to devolve into random guessing.
Even in modern games like Type Lumina players are forced to guess left/right since like every char has some L/R off really basic enders like airthrow. It's not *as* binary as L/R since you can shield which autocorrects, but shield as an option mostly just extends the decision-making to left/right/shield on both sides. It's not really getting more interesting. That was one of the big reasons I kinda stopped playing the game; Running powerful oki in general, even if no setplay is involved, is super boring and frustrating to deal with. The fact that a simple guess like this rewards the offender with a combo equivalent to a neutral win is really strange to me, and feels super bad imo.
One of the big reasons UNI clicked for me was because that kind of oki was impossible (or at least more difficult, less universally applicable) in the game since you can just delay tech. There is still strong oki of course, but not to the same incredibly boring and binary extent, since you can always just delay tech.
In Type Luminas defense, you have way more options once you get up than in UNI. Shield, Backdash and Heat are all universal and all cover different offensive option selects.
As much as I like UNI there are setups that'll cover any wakeup timing, not to mention restands.
@@hijster479 Apparently youtube nuked my last reply so in case 2 show up that's why.
Backdash doesn't work against L/Rs because you don't know where to backdash to, so that one doesn't really work out.
Heat doesn't work a lot of the time. 2A > Shield OS exists and everyone runs that. So at that point you have to Charge Heat, which becomes reactable, which means Shield and Heat are both beaten the same way. We end up with the same L/R/(Shield+Heat) situation, which imo blows.
What setups in UNI cover any wakeup timing? I know about the Hilda H/L which just has you blocking so your wakeup timing doesn't matter.
Reading the original post again it was definitely inaccurate to say these setups are "impossible" in UNI - should've said they were "less universally prevalent", which in turn makes the game more enjoyable for me personally.
@@fluury Backdash get's you out of shield os's, As you mentioned Shield covers L/R, and heat beats most standard safejumps and whiff cancels. If you're really that pressed to escape you can MD, which really only loses to throw. Yes, all of these options have counterplay, but it's impossible to cover all of them even with safejumps or meaty projectiles.
UNI's universal defense is much worse, so not only are safejumps and meaty projectiles way scarier, but even standard meaties can be nigh inescapable. Linnes 5A recovers fast enough to block VO or punish backdash/creeping edge. In fact in CLR she could meaty 5B (which is +1 at best) to os VO/backdash and frame trap into a 5A that also os's VO/backdash. And before you say delay tech, the framekill used for this setup leads to a safejump against delay tech, and can be used after A Dragon Fang, Linnes most common ender for metered routes. I'd Also like to stress that this is possible for *Linne* a relatively average character in terms of oki and pressure.
To be fair, all of this is much easier said than done, most oki you'll run into in actual matches is nowhere near this complex. But even if the aggressor doesn't know or messes up a setup, you simply don't get rewarded as much for defense. Backdash and Creeping edge are almost always minus, so it's still their turn, and VO deals no damage. With the exception of Heat the comparable options in Type Lumina lead to more reliable punishes. And Heat is harder to bait (its unblockable and guard cancellable), and more rewarding (you get regen and it pauses the clock), so it's still slightly better than VO. Even the character specific defensive options are subtly worse. You can't combo from most reversals without CS, EX Command grabs have no preflash startup, and reversals are generally slower, especially in UNI2.
Not saying this to knock UNI, I also prefer it over Type Lumina, but I like how you always have options to escape in TL. The offense is way more oppressive, but if you make the right read on defense you can turn the tables. UNI offense is much easier to react to but also harder to challenge, so Ironically it has had more inescapable setups. You could get out of Maids unblockables from day one in TL, Seths didn't have universal counterplay until UNI2. And UNI2 still has setups that are at least guaranteed chip.
P.S I think TH-cam nuked the first version of this reply too :/
@@hijster479
Yes, backdash gets you out of the shield OS - but again, you don't know where to backdash to - it's a L/R. Guess wrong, and you will dash into their 2A, it's the same problem.
MD is a fair mention, though. I forgot about it! Though it still kinda gets toasted the same way counterplay vs. shield gets toasted, since its -2. I guess you at least don't eat an entire combo.
I can't really follow you regarding your description of Linnes oki. It's not like players have two tech timings, ASAP and the super late auto-getup - you can delay it by a complete, variable amount of time, right? How can you safejump if your opponent simply delays their tech by like 3 frames? Or 5? or 10? Or meaty. The entire concept of a meaty doesn't work because if your opponent just delays their tech by a few frames - they'll get up to you having whiffed your button (Specifically looking at the single hit example you brought up with Linne 5B). Regardless of how short the recovery is, the entire concept just gets beaten by slightly delaying your wakeup and not abiding by set timings.
I can't comment on the older UNI games - I'm specifically writing this with UNI2 in mind since that's the only one I've really played (thanks rollback). But I really can't wrap my head around a lot of the stuff you're saying. Both safejumps and meaties are by virtue of the variable delay timing strategies you can't rely on.
@@fluury While variable, teching still has a set amount of frames. You can change the timing but it's still reactable, especially with frame kills/safe jumps. Basically if you don't tech during the safejump/framekill I can react and wait until you do. You also can't delay indefinitely, after enough frames I'll know you did a normal getup and time my oki based on that. most As and some Bs are fast enough to meaty on reaction.
Again most players aren't doing this, and even the ones that do occasionally mess up, but it still covers practically everything when it works. There's no universal way to guess right and get a punish, at best you're simply preventing mixups that are already mostly reactable.
Jedah Dohma indirectly changed fighting games forever when he introduced trap style projectiles that linger into High/Low… and he wasn’t even that good
I love aoko I love aoko I love aoko
God tier content! But I'm a set play player 😅
👌
Urging FG players to learn at least a little bit of game theory instead of reinventing the wheel of mixed strategies.
Another good vid! I'm not a fan of setplay for the same reason I'm not a fan of long combos: you're not really fighting the other player, you're kinda just doing DMC combos against a training dummy.
Not really comparable, you can at least interact during setplay lol
Long combos are only bad in high damage games