Best update for your old Speakers
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ต.ค. 2024
- Parts list 👉 docs.google.co...
If you'd like to order a set of crossovers or have me work on yours, email me at ShuksanAudio@gmail.com
In this video I replace the capacitors in the frequency crossover network on a set of Realistic Nova 8 speakers. I also replaced the wirewound resistors. I could tell that replacing these components made a different in the sound due to the increased volume in the high frequency output of the speakers.
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My name is Matt. I live in Washington State and create content around vintage stereos and other audio equipment. I approach the hobby from the standpoint of appreciating the aesthetic as well as having a system that is enjoyable to listen to my favorite music on. I'm not generally spending time worrying about having the right cables or how good the speakers sound beyond a certain point. So long as the music sounds good enough to dance to, I'm happy. If you have a receiver that you would like serviced, drop a comment and we could talk about service costs.
IG and Tik Tok are @TheDealyDeal
Thanks for watching! Part two with the full exterior upgrade is live here: th-cam.com/video/APGTQlAH76o/w-d-xo.html
If you're interested in updating your Nova 8s...parts list: bit.ly/3RbIfz2
Subscribe ❤ bit.ly/3GrqmVJ
I have the Nova 7 and they sound great!
@@SDsailor7 Nice! Thanks for stopping by ❤
@@Shuksanaudio I have some Sansui SP-30 speakers and some SP-2500 and was wondering if you have to drain the capacitors on these speakers before removing them?
This brings back memories. I had a set of these when I was a kid in high school back in the 70s. The walnut veneer cabinets on these were heavy and solid. Had no clue what I was doing, but "bigger is better" you know. I tossed the grilles, painted the front baffle flat black, replaced the woofer with a blue 12" McIntosh driver, replaced the mids with a pair of soft domes and dropped in a Peavey piezo horn tweeter. The goal was to create party speakers for college, and they served that purpose well.
Funny thing about the speakers, with the piezo horn tweeters they were bright AF in an empty room, but once a bunch of people filled the room, their bodies dampened the excess highs and they actually sounded really good. Powered them with a beefy 100 watt per channel Yamaha A700 amp, they definitely made some noise!
Not really sure what happened to those speakers, replaced them and they were lost to the mists of time after that. If anybody out there happens across some black faced Optimus speakers at a garage sale, those are mine 😆
Thanks for sharing this story. I love hearing about peoples experiences with HiFi over the years. I'll keep my eyes peeled for some real party speakers 👀 Thanks for watching!
Most of the repairs I have done is to replace rotted out surrounds, I never thought about the crossover components failing. Thanks for the info
Nice! Replacing foams is such a useful skill to have. Throwing a few capacitors in doesn't take too much extra effort and can be done while the glue is drying on the foam. Thanks for watching!
@@Shuksanaudio I have some really great speakers that people were throwing out for the $20 kit and maybe an hour of effort
Old caps in crossovers don't "block out higher frequencies" per se, but they can do two things that are bad. One, their ESR (equivalent series resistance) can rise, which will reduce the output of the midrange or tweeter if in series with those drivers, or else it can allow more midrange into the woofer if you're talking about the one in parallel with the woofer. A different kind of failure is that the caps can become electrically leaky, which can allow lower frequencies to reach the mids and tweeters, possibly endangering them. Changing from electrolytics to film caps is a good idea so long as you have level controls for the mids and tweeters, because good film caps have a lower ESR than even new electrolytics, and thus can make the mids and tweeters louder than they are supposed to be, which is the effect you heard.
Hey Scott, thanks so much for explaining this! I'm not an expert but from my understanding the ESR is also different at different frequencies and electrolytics tend to have a natural high frequency roll off point that is significantly lower than a film capacitors due to film caps having that lower ESR at those higher frequencies that you mentioned. I try to keep my explanations pretty simple in videos since most people don't need to know the nuance. Thanks for watching!
@MattDealy I did enjoy your video. It's not that electrolytics have a higher ESR at higher frequencies, it's that they become inductive at higher frequencies and that's why they start to roll off the highs at some point. However, at the sizes of capacitors that are used in speakers, that frequency usually isn't until way way above the range of human hearing, usually several hundred kilohertz.
Glad to hear it Scott :) Oh gotcha! Good to know. I was watching XraytonyB and he was comparing the frequency response curves of film caps to electrolytics and I thought that he said they rolled off within 20khz and that was part of the reason that older receivers sounded "Warmer". He may have been referring to a specific type of electrolytic that was used as he was talking about specifically some Sansui and Pioneer models. There's a lot to learn and I do my best to be a student always so thank you for your kind explanations 🙏
@@Shuksanaudio I've been servicing audio since 1977, and I've never heard of electrolytics rolling off the highs within the audible range. Of course, it depends on what load impedance they're driving, and whether that load is resistive, capacitive, or inductive. Coupling caps in amplifiers usually drive fairly high impedances (tens or hundreds of thousands of ohms), and so there is no way that their small internal inductance could roll off the highs prematurely. And keep in mind that some of these older receivers (I now work exclusively on gear made before 1990) have a flat response to beyond 50kHz, sometimes higher, especially in the case of Harmon-Kardon gear.
I think the different sound people hear from vintage gear is often sue to the different topologies used in the design, and the reduced amount of negative feedback in many older units.
Later! 😁
That's awesome! It's great that you're out here sharing your knowledge. I've definitely seen some receiver spec sheets that show the frequency going past 50khz and even 100khz which is wild. Do you replace smaller value electrolytic capacitors with film capacitors in amps?
Restored a pair of Sansui sp x 9000's refoamed 1 woofer,replaced both mids,replaced the cross-overs and replaced the 20 ga speaker wire on the midst and woofers with copper 12ga.
Also used sheet lead on the inside of the speaker boxes. Really impressed with the improved sound performance
The speakers are powered by a Sansui AU 8500 amp
Nice! That's a good amount of work.
Yay!!! Thanks algorithm!!! Ive always have been a speaker geek and now that im retired i can tinker more! I miss the Shack😢😢😢
Let's goooo! Thanks algorithm 🙌 Being retired sounds nice haha. Man, you mentioning Radio Shack made me go down a nostalgic memory train. I got to go there a few times growing up and am so grateful for it. When I was first getting into audio back in high school I bought my first soldering iron and solder there. Still have some of that solder haha. I miss having a place that I could walk into and find most any part that I needed and it would be super cool to open up a little storefront that has drawers of parts and stuff in it. Anyways...thanks for watching!
I rebuild a set of Pioneer CS99a, of a similar vintage. I did the same and recapped the crossover, however i also changed all the wiring, installed new foam and changed the old spring sockets for modern banana plugs. Ideally I wanted to change the drivers as they're not great but the owner wanted to keep the original appearance. Did make a massive difference to the performance and wasn't too much money.
Nice! The pioneer line of CS speakers sure does have a following. Glad to hear that the customer was happy with them! Thanks for watching ❤️
It would have been interesting to modify just one speaker, and make a listening comparison, in mono of course. Only then could you be sure of the benefit of the improvement ! 😉
You're totally right! I have done some listening comparisons in other videos on my channel when I replace components in the crossover. I'm trying to get better at making videos so thank you for watching and offering an improvement idea!
@@Shuksanaudio Thank you, and bravo for the rest !
Keep everything original! That way you preserve the legacy of the speaker.
Capacitors go bad and change the sound from what it was originally. Restoring them with new electrolytics would bring back a sound much closer to the original stock sound. Films do change the sound a bit but to me, these aren’t really historic or collectible, they were mass market mid tier hifi. I do get the idea of wanting to keep the original design and that people have different ways of going about that. Thanks for watching and sharing your .02!
Awesome reply and video btw you da man
Thanks for the Video!
Being somewhat of an old-time audiophile snob I used to bad-mouth Radio Shack products. Now I have become to realize some of their audio equipment was actually well made and has held up well over many years. Same with some other house brand speakers like RSL & Quadraflex. The best surprise from the 70's was the GTE Sylvania 12" 3-way (Sylvania - you have to be kidding!). High-end dealer Jonas Miller Sound of Beverly Hills (M&K) sold them and compared them to anything on the market at the time.
You're most welcome! Fascinating, I'd love to hear a pair of the Sylvanias. Radio shack made some great stuff that there are now a few updates for. I'm hoping to help add to the pool of crossover modifications and such for more budget friendly speakers like these. The house brands often made really good stuff at a cheaper price due to the lack of advertising. Thanks for tuning in!
I did this to a pair of Sansui SP-2500's and SP-3500's. The change was dramatic to say the least. Very good video and very good advice to upgrade the caps.
Nice! Those Sansuis for whatever reason seem to really benefit from cap changes in my experience. Thanks for watching!
@@Shuksanaudio BTW, I have some Nova 6's (I believe that's the model) and you've got me wondering about pulling them off the shop shelf and doing an upgrade. While I'm in the mood I should do the regular shop speakers, too...BIC Venturi 4's.
Nice! You should give it a go! Fun little project since the crossover doesn't have much in it. @@henrychinaski5223
Glad I just discovered your channel. Is there a part 2 to this speaker upgrade yet?
I too have the vintage speaker upgrade bug.
I'm a xover designer so I not only get to improve their parts quality I also get to design whole new and MUCH better modern networks for them. It's a great hobby.
I am actually editing part two this week and it should be out in the next couple of weeks. It was a big project that redo the exterior of the speakers for a coffee shop.
Nice! It's a fun bug to have haha. That's awesome that you design crossovers. How long have you been into that? I can't wait to dive into that.
Thanks for watching!
Part two has landed! Not sure if you've seen it yet: th-cam.com/video/APGTQlAH76o/w-d-xo.html
We had those exact speakers in my house in the 80s
Nice! That's awesome! Thanks for watching!
In 1971, when I was 19, I bought my daily speakers DYNACO M25x, made in Denmark . Some decades ago I suspected their treble level might have deteriorated. I checked the caps and their capacity was almost 1:1 their nominal value. So I got me a 12 channel equalizer and a pair of GRUNDIG cube tweeters to boost treble. Some months later my ear doctor told me I hear up to 7 kHz. That was 20 years ago... Nevertheless I still enjoy good hearing and good music from my DYNACOS that I bought for a lifetime. I wouldn´t trade them for anything.
Man, those are some beautiful speakers! It's sad to lose those upper octaves but I'm glad you can enjoy the music! Once you find your favorite thing, it feels so good!
Sometimes the upper frequency is lost from the 'dirt' inside the ear.
So maybe a good clean will reduce your ears.
But do not use hard methods like the vacuum cleaning of eardoctors. Find a smooth bio method. For example i make a lot of swimming in the sea and a lot of low Dive. The saltwater of the sea clean my ears . There some others methods, if you are in states maybe you can ask some Indians ;-)
When I first looked at the speaker, I initially thought it was an Acoustic Research AR-3, but obviously they are not. The AR3's are amazing to listen to with huge woofer magnets and they weigh a huge amount...not easy to lift!
I've never heard AR3s but I've heard many good things about them! They're very large! Thanks for watching!
I just made a massive improvement to my Infinity SM150s for free. I stacked a pair of Polk 10s on top of them wired in series. The Polks were set out by a neighbor for trash pick-up. The theme from The Magnificent Seven sounds amazing now.
That is quite a free upgrade! Woulda been a shame to have those go to the dump.
@@Shuksanaudio My stereo is now the size of a small car but it freakin' rocks. No replacement for displacement.
1:45 That cap should be in parallel with the woofers and would bypass the high frequencies to ground rather than "blocking" them. The cap in series with the tweeter does act to block low frequencies though.
Different terminology, same result. Thanks for watching!
Yeah - I saw a pair today marked $89. The front and surround was gorgeous - but the backs said I'm Really Old Crap. I was looking for something ready to go - but I can see preserving that old box. But why do you want to upgrade the grills? That's the nicest part.
Nice! That's a fair price for those! The video on the changes I made to these will be coming out soon. The original grills are plastic and while the pattern is incredible, the plastic isn't. I made new grills for them out of wood that looked even better in my opinion. I kept the original pattern, just made them out of maple plywood with a CNC so that they're much brighter. -Matt
@@ShuksanaudioThat's what it would take! I used to work at the contract plant that made most of those speaker boxes and a few fancy grills in the 1980's. But I didn't buy those because I just don't have the space for projects. But I would if I thought I could bring it fully up to snuff. Did you think about transplantation of the guts? I just ordered Sony SSCS5's that I would be tempted to give more breathing room in the future. Or a damaged pair of something else. BTW Those were Sansui - the cases look identical.
EVERYTHING except the grill (and stands, etc.) were made out of MDF with vinyl. Although we did have a separate line someplace else that hand assembled with veneer. Sony bought the company and moved to China.
Since you're into high-end repairs - check out the plasticizer sold as engine seal stop leak - it soaks into anything that is plastic that has dried out and renews it well. Also for hoses and bushings and trim and dash etc.
I see a Nikko amplifier there. They were quite impressive, and had a nice kick to them. I have an NA - 690 stashed away somewhere. Not used it in over 20 years. I think I would definitely need to check the electrolytics and other components, and likely replace them before running it again. Thanks for the video on speaker upgrade. Found it very useful. ✌️
Ayyye! Eagle eyes 👀 I agree! This one is actually very sentimental to me and I am working on plans for many upgrades to make to this one. Mine is an NA-690 as well! If you ever think about parting with your 690, I might be interested!
You're most welcome! I'm glad that you could garner some useful information out of it.
@@Shuksanaudio Cheers to that. I remember buying that amplifier back in the mid 80s. Brought it parties. Lot of fun with it. I was using it with a pair of very old and usual, not well recognized... "Burhoe Acoustics" 8 inch bookshelf speakers ( the red dust cover ones ), around the time Advent loudspeakers were out in the market. I "think" Burhoe was a subsidiary of Boston Acoustics at the time, but can't be 100 % on that. The foam surround on them, has since dried up, but they sounded very powerful on the low end. I believe they're 4Ω, but it was the Nikko that sure could really push them to their max. VERY strong amplifier.
If I do part with it, it's yours. I haven't powered it in over 20 years. I need to check the ESR on the main filter caps first, to avoid and damage to the outputs. No telling what condition it's in.
I wouldn't drill holes in the back of the pots. The drill filings (for want of something to call them) that will fall in can do damage. Better to try contact/switch cleaner and spray from the front and rorate the pots.
Yes, that was probably not the best thing to do haha. They were sealed. No way to get cleaner in. I should have tried to take them apart.
OMG, I have the exact same cabnets with my Sansui 1970s speakers. Except mine are as follows.
1. 12 inch woofer
2. 1 horn loaded, L-Pad controlled
Compression tweeter.
3. 2 2 inch dome tweeters
4. 1- 4 inch midrange driver.
5. Dual vented tubes on the bottom front facing ports.
I am here to tell you that even today it is very hard to beat the sound that these speakers produce.
And I have had many many speakers over the years.
The only configuration of speakers that come close is my current 2.1 setup. Two JBL Studio 530s with a parts express 15 inch subwoofer hooked up to my Yamaha amp
And SMSL / DAC.
BLURAY 4K CD PLAER. SACD.
It comes close but there is still a difference in the sound.
My answer to that is my 40 year old vintage ADC/ equalizer/ spectrum analyzer. With the soft blue display. Beautiful piece of equipment. Got it about 35 years ago in a pawn shop for 50 bucks.
Nice! that's awesome! Always nice to find a set of speakers that you really love! An equalizer is so good for tuning in a system! Thanks for watching. -Matt
Many classic speakers have overly simplistic cost reduced crossovers. By measuring the individual drivers and developing a new crossover you can often really improve classic speakers. When replacing the fiberglass, use the same weight of the new stuffing.
Totally! I am slowly learning about crossover design and have a couple ideas for what speakers my first crossover project will be. Thanks for adding good info to the comment section! I appreciate you watching and chiming in. -Matt
Great video! I need this done to my Sansui SP-200’s
Thank you! You should totally give it a try. I've worked on a few pairs of Sansuis and new caps always really opened up the high end. Thanks for watching. -Matt
Great video Matt. I am rebuilding and refinnishing a 45 year old set of ADS 700s. Is that a Nikko amp? I think it's the same one I have!
Thanks Ted! Oh nice! Good on you. Those'll be sweet when you're done! It's a Nikko NA-690. I love the way it looks and it's one of the only pieces I have left from my highschool stereo.
Thanks for watching!
@@Shuksanaudio
Cool! I bought my Nikko 890 in college. Back in 1978. It's still prestine!
Wow! That's amazing! They're such niche products that it's even more fun to find them or hear of others with them. I have some upgrades planned for later this year for my 690 and I'm excited to get to it!@@tedroybal5231
I had a set of SANSUI speakers with the exact same grills.
12 inch woofers
5 inch mid woofer/midrange
2 1/2 inch dome tweeters X2
5X7 horn loaded compression tweeters.
Also L-Pads for the horn tweeters.
Dule 3 inch port tubes.
Nothing i have ever had sounded as good as those.
Long story short, my wife threw them away. !!!!!!!!!!!!
I was going to strip them down and totally over haul them with new wood veneer
New crossovers and wires.
All the individual drivers were perfect.
That was about a 1,500 dollar mistake she made.
Oh noooo! That is not how I expected that story to go. Do you know which model they were?
Great info! I am currently in the process of restoring a set of Knight speakers from the 1960's. 3 way crossover, 2 of the capacitors look normal but one is orange and flat with no writing on it. Any ideas what this is and how I can find the value on it for a replacement? Thanks!
Nice! That's awesome. Is it a flat round disc like capacitor? That would be a ceramic capacitor. They don't tend to drift as much as electrolytics so you might be able to get away with not replacing it. You can shoot me an email with a photo of it if that would be helpful: Shuksanaudio@gmail.com
@@Shuksanaudio Thanks for the help! Shot ya an email with a pic :)
2:45 Those are Rheostats, they are not potentiometers, they have special non-lubricating grease or clean contacts! You should not drill holes either, they open with force and the metal cover comes off easily and can be replaced. Nice speakers and restore! 😉
Thanks for the clarification! You're totally right. Always room to learn.
Learning is always great, I didn't know about them either until I came across some fantastic Japanese SONOCO boxes with giant rheostats and saw how complicated they were to get where I lived, excellent work and video.@@Shuksanaudio
@@nopochoclos Absolutely! There's a lot to learn in this space so it's always nice when someone brings up good info :) Ahh dang, that's amazing. Unfortunate that they are hard to come by. Thank you! I appreciate it!
@@Shuksanaudio try to find a SONOCO, maybe no super brand but i am using them every day with a Technics SU-7300 and both match very good, but not with the Nad 3020 some lack of bass , 19kg each speaker, very tick walls.
Will do! I can't find much info about them online but maybe I will luck upon a pair one day :) They sound very well built! Is the Technics your go to amp right now? Seems like you've got some great gear options!
Frequency response measurements before and after and capacitance measurements of the old and new capacitors would be nice.
Great point! I will be purchasing a capacitance and ESR measurement tool soon for use in some upcoming speaker upgrade videos I will be putting out. I hope to get a calibrated microphone shortly after that for frequency response. Thanks for watching!
I donated a pair of these last year in Minneapolis. Wonder if these are them?
Oh man, you're a good samaritan haha. I live in WA so I doubt these are the same pair but that would be quite a coincidence.
Hi, new subscriber here, I own some Goodman RB35 how would I go about knowing what capacitors to change to?
Would I take the figures off the side if possible or a meter reading and buy a modern equivalent?
Howdy! Thanks for subscribing! The capacitors should say their value on them if you open the speakers up. My guess is they have a simple crossover just like the speakers in this video and may have only one or two capacitors. You can find replacements on partsexpress.com. Electrolytic capacitors would be a fine replacement in those speakers.
Soldering the wires directly onto the speaker terminals rather than using spades is another no cost upgrade.
Thanks for watching!
Silikon is much better than hot glue. It can go hard and break. And change the Position of resistors if they are in same place. Field overlapping.
I've personally never seen hot glue crack. Silicon is a great option as well though, it just takes longer to dry. Great idea on the resistors! Thanks for watching.
leave some of that fill out which will help with the bass. Get more cabinet resonance that way.
Some people would say the opposite haha. I ended up pushing the fill towards the top of the cabinet away from the woofer since it was empty up there. They had plenty of bass for the application from listening. I think it's going to be barely noticeable if at all other than on an RTA. Thanks for chiming in, always good to hear people's takes on things. -Matt
Realistic: The common person's premium brand.
Agreed! Honestly, I've been really impressed by how good they sound and for around $25 a pair at thrift stores and stuff they're a great value and they look great. For people's first foray into audio, they're awesome. Thanks for watching!
Realistic (Radio Shack?) took a bad rap in the 1970's as low-fi and low quality. They did build some nice receivers, tape decks, EQ's and of course, speakers. I remember the swell reviews for the Minimus 7 and 11 mini speakers and for the T series labyrinth systems. I got to use a Realistic 31-2009 EQ for a few months some years back and found it quite good. Nice to see that unlike Rodney Dangerfield, they're finally gettin' some respect.
They really did! A lot of the stuff they made has great sound or potential for it. They're nice components for getting into HiFi on a budget. Haha they're doin better than Rodney for sure 😂
Talk about el-cheapo hifi. My first "component" hifi system purchased after military service and broke in 1975 consisted of a Pioneer SX-434 (15wpc) receiver, BIC-920 turntable (with Shure M70 pickup) and KLH model 31 speakers all for under $240. It was boss.@@Shuksanaudio
That's amazing! Inflation sure has killed all the pricing haha. An SX 434 used is more than $240 now haha. That sounds like a sweet little system. @@martyjewell5683
I have a really nice pair of Energy C9 tower speakers that I would like to keep going strong. They are over 20 years old. How do I know if I need to have this done to my crossovers? How long does this stuff usually last?
Capacitors in speakers are generally going to be fine for 20-30 years but it depends on how they're used and the original quality of the components. If you have a capacitance tester you could test them to see if they're still within 20% of the rated spec. If you don't, you could get an RTA (Real time anaylyzer) app for your phone and play 20hz-20khz white noise through them to see how the frequency response is. If its falling off a lot around the crossover points or at the high end 8khz and up, it could be from bad capacitors, however, your phones microphone isn't calibrated so those results wouldn't necessarily be accurate. If you like the way they sound and they don't sound like there's lots of missing high frequencies, I wouldn't bother with a recap. Most of the speaker I put new capacitors in are 40-50 years old so they are well beyond spec. Thanks for watching!
@@Shuksanaudio Could I ask you a question? I had an x girlfriend poke a hole in the cone of one of my drivers. I used silicone to patch it up and it sounds fine but the silicone all over it has always bothered me and I know it must be running a little behind with the extra weight. So I recently bought a driver from a guy on E bay. I was hoping since it was the same speaker out of the same kind of cab it would match up. But after installing I’m noticing that the speaker in question is not as loud as the other meaning the new/used speaker doesn’t match. Is there any way to get this new/used speaker to match up? Or should I just have the busted speaker repaired? If I play these speakers this way while I wait for repair could the unmatched speaker cause problems with my other speakers or will it be ok for a week or so?
Hmmm it could be that the speaker you purchased has a different impedance or has drifted over time so it's playing more quietly. Have you tried switching the position of the leads that are connected to the driver? You won't damage the speaker if you just use it with a different woofer inside of it. @@bigmacfullerton7870
Doing this is the first step on the inside of the cabinet. I go 1 better by replacing the 18 gauge wires inside with 12 gauge. Big boost in bass.
For sure! It's definitely worth updating the wiring on most speakers. I would say 12 guage is a bit larger than necessary but everyone has their opinion and I'm not likely to be "right". Cheers.
@@Shuksanaudio Its what I had on hand. And it was for a 15 inch woofer. Just going from 18 gauge 2 steps to 14 is a big plus but even 16 gauge is better than 18.
I have found out that a lot of metric country's 18 gauge is closer to 19 or 20 gauge using a 'US Wire Gauge' gauge.
Would be nice, next time, to hear a before and after sound check.
Yes indeed! I do sound tests before and after in my other videos now. Thank you for watching.
My Nova 7s had 3 ceramic resistors with a switch. When I first got them, they blew. Replaced and now all is almost good. Like you are doing, I have to replace the capacitors.. but won't film capacitors change the sound dynamics???
I've never seen a resistor open in a speaker, that's wild. Someone must have run them loud for a long time! Another commentor mentioned that film capacitors can change the sound dynamics while another person thought it was odd to replace the woofer capacitor with an electrolytic instead of film. Just like with many things in the audio world, there is a lot of information and opinions floating around on what they best way to recap a speaker is. From what I have read, film caps have lower equivalent series resistance (ESR) than electrolytic caps and as such, will allow more current into the circuit thus increasing the volume of the component they are in line with if you replace an electrolytic with a film. This is most obvious at higher frequencies which is why when people recap an older speaker, the high end tends to sound "Better" or brighter. If you want to stick as closely as possible to the original sound of the speaker, recapping with most any modern audio grade electrolytic will be the best option. However, some people prefer a brighter sound, or have the equipment to test frequency response and can adjust the crossover values to keep them sounding original by adding a resistor with the film capacitor or changing the crossover entirely. That takes a lot of time so most people just throw in a film capacitor and call it a day. Film caps don't go bad like electrolytics do so people tend to think they're better because they won't have to be replaced "ever". I think it's odd to expect something to work perfectly without any maintenance for 20+ years so I don't mind using electrolytics. I think there's a general idea that film caps are just better than electrolytics which is likely propegated by the fact that electrolytic go bad. Very high end speakers tend to use film capacitors because they do have properties that make them "better". But on vintage speakers that have less precision manufacturing and are not super high end, you'd be hard pressed to notice the difference. There are many great forum posts on the internet regarding crossover caps. Post #4 on this thread is a quick read and very useful: audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/to-cap-or-recap-that-is-the-question.959132/
Thanks for watching! -Matt
I have a pair of RTR Magnums, both are tower speakers with a 12" woofer and 12" passive radiator. I was using a long 3 5 mm cable from a digital device to the receiver and driving them fairly hard. The overloads on the speakers tripped. After resetting, it seems I lost all bass response on both speakers and all I'm getting is tweeters. Do you think I blew out the voice coil or burned out components on the crossovers?
Oh no! That's unfortunate. If you have a multimeter, try testing the woofer for resistance. If they still show resistance, they should be fine and there might be other components in the crossover that were burned open. Some speakers have a fuse in the crossover.
Surprised tonsee what look like iron core inductors? Bowers and Wilkins in their DM 220 and 330 2.5 ways use an air core inductor on the tweeter and two midbasses, with a capacitor on the tweeter and upper woofer. The resistor is of course on the tweeter, and just an inductor on the lower woofer.
Yes I believe they are iron core. These were not high end speakers when they came out and the sound difference between iron core and air core is minimal unless you're dealing with high end speakers like those B&Ws. These speakers still sound great though and would please most people. I think the iron core vs. air core is part of a set of arguments to squeeze the last 5% of sound quality out of something. These speakers get you 80% there, and you'd need different speakers to get any further haha. Thanks for watching!
Try a Bozak X-over rebuild.
Are they pretty complex?
Nice video
Thank you! -Matt
Would this work on a pair of realistic optimus 5bs? I heard theyre basically the same speakers lol
It would! The Optimus 5B and Nova 8B are the same speaker. These are the Nova 8 which are a bit different from those two. There is actually a full crossover mod on the internet for the 8B/5B that makes them sound much better. Thanks for watching!
@MattDealy thats how I found your video because I was having a hard time finding a comprehensive list online but you have everything all laid out so if I can use your parts list I definitely will! Plus your video is excellent! Really breaks things down and gets rid of any ambiguity!
I’m happy to hear that! Unfortunately, my parts list is not compatible with the stock parts list for the 8B/5B and it is not the upgrade found online. The easiest way to replace the components in your speakers is to open them up and look at the values of what’s inside them then order equivalent components. Shoot me an email if you have questions!
Hey Matt where are you located bru? Let me know please
I'm in Washington State North of Seattle. Thanks for watching!
better upgrade would be to use thin film capacitors, instead of electrolytic ones seen here, also air coils without a magnetic core, then even better would be a active crossover instead of passive crossover with separate amps for highs and lows, then class A amp to retain the same exact signal going in that comes out,
And since we're dealing with an unlimited budget we could go ahead and just buy some Klipsch Jubilees and forget about these all together. Silly me.
@@Shuksanaudio lol
@@Shuksanaudio btw thin film capacitors and air core coils are not really that expensive maybe 100$ total for both
Haha you're right, but these speakers cost $38 and the difference between air coils and iron core is negligible IMO. I know they can make a difference but more on high end speakers. Also, what are you referring to when you say thin film? I've never heard anyone suggest using thin film for crossovers. I only used on electrolytic in this build which was for the woofer high pass and realistically, it doesn't make a sound difference because of the lower frequencies that it's passing and I could have left it stock. I used film and foil caps for the others.
Much work. How much bedder sound
I enjoy the work. The sound improvement was definitely noticeable. Much more alive. It's a give and take though, they're not super nice speakers and different pairs might have aged differently and still sound fine. Thanks for watching!
Wow Sir! I bought two of those Pioneer Speakers; when they first came out, long ago. In the '70's. But sadly, the sound was NOT good to my ears then. Thus they have just sat there in my music room. I might probably try to sell them on eBay. For someone that can do what you did Sir. And use them. For they are beautiful outside. Not a scratch. They just sat there.
Because I will be 92 yrs old on April the 5th. And my ears are so bad; I don't listen to my other Pioneer's items; any more. Time kills...LOL.
Thanks so much for sharing your story! I agree, the pioneer line of speakers with the lattice grilles does not sound good to me, mostly due to lacking any low end below 50-60hz. Yours sound like they're in beautiful condition!
Happy early birthday! That's amazing. You've seen much in your lifetime and its an honor that part of it was spent watching my video ❤️
@@Shuksanaudio Kind Sir, I'm honored and humbled. Thank you so much.
The only thing I disagree with is the woofer cap being an electrolytic as it will just have to be replaced again years down the road.
You're not wrong. My thought process was that they're 1/10 the cost of a film capacitor that value and I could have just not replaced it since it was only affecting the woofers high frequency roll off. Realistically, the sound improvement might not have been noticeable from that cap, only the other one but it was only a buck fifty so I went for it. Thanks for watching!
@@Shuksanaudio
You're welcome.
I think of it from a standpoint of do I want to be replacing the cap in 30-40 years or a future owner have to do it.
Then again mica caps were once thought to never go bad, but it was found later on they do sometimes fail. So what if film caps are like that where a generation or two in the future they find them starting to fail.
Certainly would never let you anywhere near any of my electronics.
I respect that. Lots of great techs out there who know way more than I do. I'm putting my time in to learn and grow through books, forums, videos, courses, and just hands on experience but learning takes time. I expect to be better in a year than I am now and so forth. Thanks for stopping by! -Matt
why not change the cross over instead of upgrading it
Because changing a crossover requires much more time to measure each driver and design a crossover that works for the drivers properly. You can buy an off the shelf crossover and it might be an improvement, but it also might sound worse because it wasn't designed for the specific impedance curves of each driver. It would be fun to make a video showing the difference between off the shelf crossovers and a custom designed one...maybe later this year when I'm more well-versed on the subject. Cheers.
I would have replaced that woofer too!
New woofer needs a new crossover to really work well typically. Have you worked on Nova 8s? To me, these woofers actually sound pretty good. The woofer from the Nova 8B is a great drop in replacement that has some improvement and there are some crossover mods detailed online to make it work and sound wonderful. I have another video coming soon on the rest of the updates that I did to these speakers. I just did them on a budget for a local coffee shop and to practice with CNCing and veneering. Thanks for watching!
I actually bought a woofer from Radio Shack in the late 80''s. It had the same rubberized cloth surround (12 inch) and a tan colored cone and 1.5 inch voice coil. Fantastic woofer! Made a custom enclosure for it. Back in my speaker building days! @@Shuksanaudio
Nice! that's awesome! Can't wait to build my first set of speakers. @@5argetech56
good
Thank you! I appreciate you watching ❤
Film capacitors found in speaker crossovers are bipolar...+..+. You shouldnt use electrolytic caps as a replacement unless you construct a bipolar set by connecting the negative sides of 2 electrolytics. Two 200 uf capacitors with their negative sides connected will make a 100 uf bipolar cap if thats what you need to replace. I just recapped 2 mint 1968 Fisher XP7's I won on ebay for 1 dollar. Instead of buying new bi polar film caps...I made them from my stock of electrolytics. Two 50 uf's connected _ _ will make a 25 uf + +
Films are indeed bipolar, but so are all of the electrolytics for crossovers on Parts Express. You can get plenty of different bipolar electrolytics even for amplifiers and such. If you are needing to link polar capacitors, they're probably not meant for crossovers. Some people may say they don't sound as good but I think you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. Thanks for watching!
@@Shuksanaudio When a person buys all the stock of a retiring electronic repair owner...and an O scope for 50 bucks..I'll just use from my boxes of components. I literally have hundreds of caps of all values made by Panasonic and Nakamichi
Why didn't you replace that crappy old wire with something, decent at least plus change out the Iron core inductor with a better air core type of a heavier gauge. Lower DCR, less saturation. Actually, a redesign of the X-over is the way to go with dumping those what, fifty year old pots for fixed resistors.
Every project needs to be balanced on which upgrades are worth the time and expense. I do plan to do more redesigns of crossovers in the future but this pair is going in a cafe for background music and they needed to look nice more than sound good since the cafe isn't marketed as a listening space. They were a massive improvement over what they had and sound great. It sounds like you know a lot, would love to see you do these upgrades to a pair :)
Thanks for watching.
You might want to learn a bit more about flux
I've learned much in the 6 months since this video was posted
Ethically harvested wool. Man oh man.
HAhaha yea, it's funny, I just went back to this video and watched the whole thing and it's so interesting how as my knowledge has grown, I've not obsessed over that sort of stuff. It feels a bit try hard. I'm all for ethically harvested wool vs animal cruelty but these speakers don't need it lol. You certainly wouldn't notice a sound difference compared with fiberglass haha. Thanks for watching.
Those were awesome speakers. I still have pair of smaller Advents I bought in 1971. They sound great. Maybe I should check the crossovers.
@@JohnFBramfeld I have always used common 'Poly-Fill' in boxes. Works like fiberglass. Can't see it when the drivers are in place.
Nice! I've always loved the way Advents sound. I've got a pair of 5012/w large advents that I'll be putting out a video on in the future. Crossover caps are a great update. Even if you replace them with electrolytics.
Poly fill is what I use as well. It's good stuff and nice and cheap.
Sand cast resistors=weak.
Thanks for dropping in to share your 2 cents and watch the video, I'm all for an educational conversation to help people who may not have as much knowledge as you or I. The sand cast/Ceramic casing wirewound resistors I used in the video are the cheapest option and these speakers aren't exactly top of the line. To my knowledge there is nothing "weak" about them unless you're using them in an application where they would go through many high heat cycles. Perfectly fine for a passive speaker crossover on a budget. If this was a pair of Klipsch Fortes or something else high end, the extra cost would be worth it for some mills or even the higher end Dayton precision wire wound. Lots of options out there and people say that they can hear the difference on higher end drivers, but I doubt you could on these.
Honestly I rarely ever see wire wound resistors in equipment of this quality. The purpose of this was more a restoration of the original sound quality. (Though the woofer surround might have also stiffened over time on these, which is another issue on its own. This will make the bass quieter, and it likely won’t dig as deep either. People have suggested many ways to fix this, all including harsh chemicals that I have a strong fear of.)
Perfectly illustrates how stupid these "influencers" are.
I didn't realize we were playing Pictionary.
Dude I’m trying to replace my speakers in ma old fart box speakers but who sells quality speakers to replace these hoes I can’t get around everything showing up as car speakers lord someone help a young brotha in need
Replace those hoes with some speakers from partsexpress.com they've got hoes in all different sizes from 1" to 21".
@@Shuksanaudio Mashalla
Didn’t hear the difference in sound..
Ah schucks. I've found that if the speakers are 30 years old or more and use electrolytic capacitors, I can usually hear an improvement. If they use film, plastic, or any other type of capacitor, I've found minimal to no change in the sound.
Ethically harvested wool... omg hugging trees or fixing speakers in this video??? who knows
I was thinking I would do a video on how to best hug trees in the next couple of months. It's a real art form and if you do it wrong, the tree might hate you for 900 years.
@@Shuksanaudio do it and I'll subscribe yesterday!!
Bet. @@TheAngryCamper
@@Shuksanaudio I love it when youtubers don't take shit too serious and have a sense of humor about stuff :) you are talented and knowledgeable, now, about this wool and how its harvested................
Trees like music too #vintageaudio #Stereorepair #ACDC
Interesting video, I've always been aware of cap degradation over time. But dude, you really need to get out more. First the gloves, how or why do people have to wear those gloves for every little thing they do on TH-cam? Is everyone really that afraid to get their little patties soiled? But then you mention it's the lead in the solder. Really? Guess you've never balanced a tire or fired a gun. News flash, touching a little lead for a few minutes is not going to give you lead poisoning, and they make this shit called "soap" that you wash your hands with that takes all that icky little dust off! And why change the fiberglas that's already in there? It's in a sealed box, it's already there, it works, just leave it alone, no one's going to have to see it for another 50 GD years, wtf, no one cares about "ethical" sound dampening!! C'mon man, you're on the right track with saving great old speakers. Now get out there and see if you can actually get your hands as dirty as we did when we were little kids ... then drink out of the hose too!! Sheesh!
I guess I'm now aware that you walked uphill to school both ways
In the snow, barefoot.
@@robertspringer9477 Nyah, we had boots! 😆
@@Shuksanaudio Nyah, it was just uphill both ways to the bus stop! But it was 1/3 of a mile!
The natural oils from our hands isn't good to get on connections.
cool
Thank you for watching!