How much improvement? Vintage Speaker Capacitor Upgrade & Replacement - Pioneer CS-88a
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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terrible speaker - non hifi.
If you did your test in stereo the receiver may be at fault not the speakers. Equalization bottom and top end, and Dolby can be fussy. I cant hear the difference.
This is a really good point. I should have had both speakers on the same channel!
The mids on these CS88a's are way overbearing !! had installed 4 ohm resisters in line to the mids to get them settled down! My CS 99A"s are more balanced , But not to be set the bar by any means! Not truly impressed by either one. However your recap efforts probably would have smoothed the CS88'A Mids out!
Kabuki speakers
My Polish friend. If the speakers did sound kind of OK. You would let viewers listen. And not block sound. .5K Right
When the Speaker was Born. Sure at that time sound was pretty good. Today advance technology light years ahead. 1970 ,,60,s Tube Amps are a big difference.
When you set speakers that close togather. You can't tell anything. Move
Them 5 feet apart. See if you can stand it
Change out wire ,binding post install feet.
NOW X your fingers.
I got A Pair Of Jamo Classics 800
Excellent video! I'm a Sansui guy and I re-capped my 1972 SP-2500's and SP-3500's about 5 years ago. Like you, I used the Dayton low tolerance caps. The change was dramatic. The sound of the speakers opened up beyond my expectations and the response all around improved so much. I did one other thing while I had the crossovers out by adding binding post connections so that I could use banana plugs. I think the binding posts are the only way to go. I also refoamed the woofers in the 3500's and that increased the bass response by allowing much more movement of the cone versus the stiff surrounds that were factory. I was going to refoam the 2500's and maybe I'll get around to that some day. Like the comment below I bought my speakers and other gear at the Navy Exchange in Yokosuka, Japan. Had it all shipped home and when I mustered out of the Navy my first project was to set up the finest stereo I had ever owned.
I'm changing the caps on my sp-3000s this week. They still have e charm, but the 50 year old caps must be changed. Can't wait to hear the difference.
Capacitors degrade over time, it is a very well known fact but what amaze me the most is that the inductors are all in the same plane on the board and not placed at 90* angle from each other. The fact they are all ferrite core inductors didn't help either! My thought is this: Why not rebuild it completely with better quality components? I know the price tag may rise to a good sum, but I think the enjoiement you will get from them might be worthwhile. Thanks for the video! Very informative!
Not that I've heard these in person but speakers like this usually don't perform too well from an objective standpoint. Replacing crossover parts that already function within spec with costly alternatives would not seem worth it to me because then I might as well redesign the whole speaker. (I'd likely not hear or measure a difference anyway but that's another topic) I'd prefer to get close to the authentic vintage experience and enjoy the heck out of it.
That is certainly a very valid argument and if you don't like the sound so much, you could resale them at a very handsome price because of their vintage value!@@RustOnTime
What app is that on the tablet?
sounds amazing oh wait that my speakers im hearing lol
Nice project. I have a pair of old Marantz I wanna inspect now ...
Hi great speaker's. You say the bass unit is 12". ??? I'm pretty sure it's a ten at best. ". Cheers
I have four CS-63DX. I bought them new in about 1974. I still use them every day. I never did anything to them...
Woow...
Electrolytic Capacitors are a lot like New Cars. The minute you drive them off of the lot, they start to go down hill. Yes Capacitors will most likely be working after 15 - 20 years after being made, but they will not be what they were when they were new, even if they were never used! Every 15 - 20 years Electrolytic Capacitors need to be replaced to keep Vintage Equipment working at it's best. and from possibly making other components fail. There are Positives & Negatives to both Vintage and Modern Equipment.
That's not always worth it. At 20 let alone over 40 years old, anything can fail at this point. Also, there are caps of vastly different quality levels with different applications. The most common effect of aging on electrolytics is high ESR.
Especially the tiny small signal ones, which are also very unlikely to fail short circuit (not more than a transistor I'd even say), are thus usually not worth changing (unless Matsushita made or other known problem types). Even if the ESR rises from, say, 10 Ohms to 100 Ohms, and the stage impedance is over 10k, there won't be any audible difference. And if you do hear anything going bad, you need to find that specific part and change it out instead of just blaming 'the caps' because they might very well NOT be the reason.
New caps don't mean the thing will not need any other repairs and you will still need to be able to do real troubleshooting.
Low impedance circuits are more susceptible to the ESR of the cap worsening. That includes speakers, output stages and also power supplies, where they are often less likely to fail in general but most likely to fail short circuit and cause damage to other components, especially if the device has sat for a while and they haven't been reformed.
If you reformed them it's still pretty unlikely, however if the device is worth a lot, it's still a good idea to change them.
I am not a technician. I’m wondering what was your cost for the replacement parts? What should I likely expect to pay a tech to do this work for me if I brought the crossovers to a shop? Thanks you, good job on the video. I have these speakers as well as a set of 77’s.
I have a pair of those my brother bought them in 1970 in Vietnam he was going to pitch um i said NO
I find it rather odd that the new caps are so much larger than the old. Usually it's the other way around by a long shot
That's because he used film caps instead of wet caps. Wet caps are the original equipment and a lot smaller. Film caps don't degrade over time like wet caps do.
Had a pair of these back in the 70s. Honestly they sounded boomy and chaotic compared with the AR3a's I subsequently acquired. In those days Japanese speakers were much inferior in sonic performance to their US and European counterparts.
Actually this is therapuetic....GOOD GOD THAT HURT! 😂 Great video. I only wish my Sansui SP-X9000's sounded this good!
The sansuis look real similar. Correct?
I always use constant pink noise for measurements. Its so much simpler.
I would say it is only good option Even with this trouble is that response in graph has no individual standard picture to compare that could be treated ad targeted ideal
Technics SB-M1's weigh 188 pounds each and sell for over 20 grand.From 1982.
Far cry from these “common man” speakers.
me ive got SANSUI SP 3500 and it makes a difference with a different tuner i got mine hooked up to a YAMAHA AV AND I HAVE A SANSUI QRX 6001 RECIEVER THAT I HAVENT HOOKED UP YET.AND CANT WAIT.
What app or software are you using on the tablet for measurement? Do you have a video showing how to use that for measurement?
😂😂😂, those speakers where and still are BS. People brought them on how they looked, NOT how they sound.
I was interested by your title, but disappointed by the actual video. Spend more time on the post-change analysis: what you were looking for, why you were looking for it, why you thought the change would be effective, what was the actual result, how did it compare to desired outcomes, why any discrepancy between expectations and actual results, and what you might do differently if doing again.
Cmon man, this is basic science report stuff--I am certain you can do better (you seem like a smart and capable guy!)
Dude this was SO INFORMATIVE! I am just trying to get brave enough to attempt this kind of thing and now I understand WHY I should! What iPad tool is this again?
Decibel X is the app’s name for measuring the speaker. I was playing the tone using Tone Gen. this is a very rudimentary way of measuring the speakers and has all sorts of flaws. Despite that, it does the trick.
i have my CS-A700 and they sound great just with ney caps... still +4db in bass for most amps and some extra high end frequencies (this model have a roll off in highs) and i think is close to high end in performace
BTW the reason to replace bad caps is not only that are out of messurements they also acquire higher resistance in series
I have the same speakers. They are smooth and accurate, but bass performance is sorta lacking. I thought recapping might help, but they sound the same. They might have just a touch more clarity
@@edjackson4389 other mod i did was stuffin' the boxed with glass fiber but you can use poliesther as well... they went from 35Hz to 28Hz but still... the same quantity of bass...
i end using DSP equalization (+9dB @80Hz cut at 160Hz-200Hz)... using high end mono blocks + preamplifier will give sorta the same performance... i had a kenwood Ka880D, mosnter 80's integrated amp, and the sound is supperb with the loudness from that amp +9dB @100Hz (but right now i use a nakamichi amplifier 1, high end inetegrated, this unit is the tipical japanese sounding unit like the newer yamhas, is not a good match for this units)
i think they should sound amazing with HEGEL or NAD, but i think DPS EQ is good enough for me
is like the sound of minimonitors + two 12inch subs
@@crazymetallian Yeah I really like the speakers. I had them hooked up to a Sansui 6060 reciever I use out in me shop. I just couldn't ever get that 50-60hz kick I like. I've got them sitting in the corner now. I put a set of JBL L50s (ported 10" 3-way) in their place. They sound much better. I'll eventually bring the Pioneers into my listening room where I have a 31 band Altec Lansing EQ. Im sure I'll be able to adjust the sound more to my liking. Thanks for the tips
@@edjackson4389 jeah, but sealed boxes don't kick and specially these infinite bafles is just a very clean sound free from port and box resonances... i have a pair aof PSB alpha P3 this little 4 inch speakers and at the same volume the pioneers will never achieve that kicking sound, but the pioneer won't never have problems with "choffing" or resonances is more of an "audiophile speaker"
@@crazymetallian I have a couple sets of sealed box speakers that kick in the bass region. My Boston A150s have punchy bass. So do my Large Advents. More bass than the Pioneer A700s. They just don't look as good as the Pioneers with the grilles off
My Jbl Summit is ok. After i upgade
Terrible design built to sell more drivers or for those that think more is best. I believe this type of speaker is still available in Asia.
The crossovers weigh more than most speakers these days. The world has gone to sh
Or Krapp, lol.
i also made stands for them the other wooden stands so they face upward a bit to throw the sound towards me and that made a difference.
🤣🤣🤣
You forgot the grills.
it might not seem much, i also did think that way back then, but oh boy
really 3d soundstage affect every presentation
Polymer caps shouldent be going bad?🤔
I bought a pair of those when I was in Vietnam through a base exchange in Japan and had them shipped to my home in the States along with a very nice Pioneer turntable.
Question a couple of others have asked. What app are you using or recommend for the audio measurements and display?
Sorry… I don’t get into comments much. The mean comments tend to make me not want to post… so I ignore comments all together. The app is decibel x. I use f generator (another app) for sound sweeps.
Electrolytic caps dry up and degrade in as little as 3-5 years. They become more resistive and the sound gets dull and closed in. Every re-cap I have done (1% and 5% low ESR metal poly) is a vast difference in clarity and openness. It''s no contest. Not to mention iron core inductors and cheap, corroded potentiometers and switches. Also, back in the day...they crossed the woofer over too high and you got mids from a woofer. Lowering the crossover cleans up the mids a lot.
I found one last night that was almost 200% above spec… 60 years old though. Vast difference after replacement!
I read in many places about ESR of electrolytyc capacitors. ESR is caused by growing resistance of metal electrodes but I am convinced that it doesn't appear with dry capacitors - they are like new when cut and opened even after 50 years. I listen to radio which just completed 84 years with original capacitors.
it can't be as crucial as thought and it doesn' depend on hours of "working" . I proven for me that any resiistances in speaker circiut may be noticed by ear only when increase is more than 10% % of speaker resistance. Power goes 10% less means instead 5 watts we get 4,5Watt, at say 70dB is like nothing Any 0,8 Ohm inserted in circiut is hard to notice by ear because it results in mild and linear not hurting way . .Unfortiunately any 1% fault of value of capacitor is noticed much and spoils sound of speaker
Why was there a 7 percent drop in midrange output after the re-cap? I subscribed, thanks, Artie.
The bad caps were acting in a way that allowed too much through so pioneers’ intended “balance” was off.
they look a lot like some sonic's i had, same color speakers and cabinet. but with two tweeters & one midrange, the woofer looks the same.
Yes it's a good idea to change the capacitors. I too have done it and with remarkable difference.😊
I had an exact match to these speakers . They were Sansui.
And they were bad ass.
Kabuki!!!
I love the Pioneer CS series of speakers. My Dad (RIP) had a pair of the CS-44s and the CS-99As. I developed my love for music while listening to his system for many hours. I've just purchased a pair of working CS-44s to try and recreate the experience. Of course, being 50-year old speakers, I'm going to do a couple of checks on them first...
Strange to see the cabinets of those speakers is so empty. I opened Dad's CS-99As once and they were packed with acoustic fiberglass. I'm fairly certain that the CS-44s were filled with fiberglass as well, but I'm going to find out if that's true in a few days.
One of the reasons why crossovers are smaller in modern speakers is that typically they use a lot less drivers than the higher-end Pioneer CS models. That CS-88A model uses a total of six drivers - most modern speakers use two or three :-) .
Sine sweeps using Room EQ Wizard (free software) are much better for performing speaker comparisons IMO. I use REW almost exclusively now for my loudspeaker measurement (my site: www.diysubwoofers.org)
Tengo los CS88A y están cubiertos por dentro... Quiero repararlos.
Halo , sir can i ask when u bought this speakers back inside is electrolytic caps n do u replace with new modern poly caps right ?
Hey there. On electrolytics, you want to buy the freshest you can find. I buy from mouser, digikey and parts express. It’s very important to buy the exact uf rating at 100 volts or higher.
@@kappandrew1 I have do some research , as u mentioned voltage 100v higher n now market have 250volt or 400volt u prefer ? Thzx for some advised !
Great work bro...I have an Pioneer hpm 100 is it worth to upgrade? any advice Cheers
Heck yes it is!! Just dig on in there and do it!
i do upgraded crossovers for these
Thanks man❤
I have a pair of Sansui speakers that look exactly like these.
That's what I thought. I thought they were sansuis that looked just like those
does anyone know where you can get those clips that are on the speaker face? The ones that clip where each diamond meets? I'm missing about a dozen between the pair. Thanks
I have a pair of cs-99a with bevelled glass tops in near mint 9.5 for sale if interested. In BC westcoast canada
How much did you want for them?
@@Ihateutubecontextandsensorshit Where are you located?
You ever pass thru the "central valley" of California?
@@Ihateutubecontextandsensorshit about as often as you pass thru Vancouver island. I did drive down to Cabo on the Baja in 2015
I would take a $1000us
Would you be willing to help a guy out with my crossovers, same model?
crickets, crickets
Super
I just got a pair of CS-99's, The Walnut wood cabinets are Beautiful (4 sessions of polishing with old English) Hooked them up to my Outlaw Audio RR2160 MKll with a outlaw Audio M8 Subwoofer and Wow they sound better than my Dahli Zensor's. I would love to get these recapped or what ever they do to them. There are no shops around me anymore. I bid on them on a Maxsold Auction and won them for $60.00 oh each speaker weighs 49 pounds. The switches on the back work. You can hear a difference when turning them. I just subscribed.
I just picked up a pair of these. The two small speakers (midranges?) need ‘re-foaming” but who knows how to do that? Not me!
then learn! not hard at all
I gotcha.. I can re-foam
Not a great decision to leave the old capacitors in
Good job, well done!
Lovely speakers
Would you happen to have a list of the capacitors that you use and where you got them I have the same speakers that I got from thrift store in very good condition I know it needs crossover thank you
Since the exact values were not available, I combined capacitors in parallel (capacitance adds in parallel) to achieve the required values.
For C1, a single 50 uF capacitor was used.
For C2, two 15 uF capacitors were used.
For C3, a 1 uF and a 4 uF were combined.
For C4, two, 1.5 uF capacitors were combined.
For C5, a 1 uF capacitor was used.
So, to fully recap two crossovers, you need:
* 2x 50 uF
* 4x 15 uF
* 2x 4 uF
* 4x 1.5 uF
* 4x 1 uF
Parts express
I’ve got a pair of 99a’s. I cleaned the pots sound great. Was going to recap them, took a look at the X-over network to build a parts list. Probably taking the boards to Millersound. Way beyond my hobbyist skill set. BTW, having the FB embossed on the cones adds at least another $50.
A local shop has a pair for $80. Grills and cases are in really good shape. Mids are original as are the super tweeters
Too much amateur crap . The coils are too close and a lot of problems with the xover board design . You should have started over with a fresh board. Space out the coils properly remove all non copper connection points putting better grade caps,resistors,coils on a badly laid out board design was a waist of money and time
Lol, lol… omg… OCD MUCH?
Easy to make lecture to author 😃. If you are so good please tell us what is exact minimum distance coils for not hurting xover? Is it "Proper"? Will you garantie that ANY fresh board will alow to notice improvment of sound?
Audiophiles don’t enjoy music
You have to love these vintage electronics ❤.
Working my entire career on new and old I have a profound respect for everyone involved in the design and implementation of ALL vintage electronics. These folks before us were exceptional !
If they were made in USA would u b so crtical
Wow. I'm subscribing! I can't believe I found a video on these exact speakers. I just bought a pair of these. Voice coil was toast in one of the 12" speakers so I'm replacing them both with Jbl 12PWPRO 12" 275 Watts Rms - 8 Ohm Woofers. I also had to buy a foam kit for the 4 round tweeters. When I get them done, and if they sound good, should I still consider rebuilding the crossover board?
hi i see you have two thumbs up and you chose replace both woofers with the JBL woofers,but here is a thing,louspeakers have a very long list of parameters that list used to work out cabinet dimensions etc for resonent frequency compliance of the woofer cabinet volume and many more. If your choice is just a guess,with no science or maths behind the choice the speakers will not sound nice,even the crossover will not be optimised for that woofer. So i pick on one parameter woofer efficiency if your choice woofer is say 4db more than the original you will have to start making modifications to the original crossover.I am no expert here so i dont know what the parameter for the speakers is regarding cabinet volume i think Qs but i could be wrong. Get that one wrong and the woofer swap can be a disaster woofer booming and resonating.the reality is unless you understand full the mathmatics side of the parameters needed to design the correct enclosure.Dont mess with it in the firstplace as you will be very disapointed and wasted a lot of money and have made a set of speakers that are worth nothing to anybody. what you can do for the best result for re-building your speakers is get the bad ones re-foamed follow the instructions here for rebuilding the crossovers and lastly look online and wait until you can find a second hand original woofer as the crossovers and other units in the box were built to match that woofer thats how you get these speakers to sound the best.Maybe you think i am exagerating ? But i am not
Parts express can help you find new woofers with the same parameters as the originals, otherwise, you will probably be disappointed, also replace ALL capacitors, preferably with poly caps,
What a great video - I admire your fantastic informative job. As I deal already long years (may be over 40 ) with winding and wiring all possible crosscovers targeting DIY the ideal sound I was very curious. abiout such direct replacement
I think you did what was possible caring not to spend months on such complicated problem. I wouldn't say it is better now. Previous setting was at least linear and convinent for correcting with any EQ in praeamp.
Now it has own "U" shape which is generaly posiitve for average loudness but may not be in line with standard two way tone controls in preamp or loudness correction.
Very clearly the high mids are stronger now and lower mids are down., Not sure about exact circuitry but I think Your new capacitors have now lower value - original You have shown had about 70 uF. It looks as +40% tolerance? Hard to say if producer did it deliberately - may be they had such bigger values in box and prefered them. New smaller values may alow more consumption of upper tones by bass speaker, which should not emmitt them but lower mids in next speaker have this energy too little making that low mid band down.All this is messed additionaly normally by phases of harmonics.
Capacitances and inductances are very critical for ear reception. I have my own experience that mistake in having the best value of any element may be accepted only on level of max 1% It means that for two element LC filter both should be hit with 0,5% accuracy - more is sensed by ears and not accepted by me . Stereo speakers won't have also the same souding.
It is realy complicated crossover and with connection to speakers and their mechanic and electrical properties it is impossible to estimate what resonances are created when we change the data of fitering. For sure values in compare to old were chnaged too much
I had a pair of CS-33a's a few years back. Couldn't care for them. Didn't find the sound particularly appealing and they just looked so darn ugly, like something you'd find in a grandma's house. I just tossed them in the trash for pick up one week lol.
changing old caps etc are not going to help with the issues of the 70's silly multi driver configurations (marketing IMO) and the associated comb filtering that it brings.
That’s a strange thing to put out there
@@beals6631 i suppose what i'm trying to say is those speakers are not worth restoring/recapping IMO they will never sound great due to design flaws. the 70's were a time for speaker innovation and experimentation and many were just bad designs. remember they did not have the measurement capability we have today. or the understanding of speaker design that has matured over decades.
Not going to hurt though is it what's more alarming is nothing on the walls , no lining no acoustic stuffing even insulation ?
Friend father had a pair always sounded great. I should have bought them five hundred. Beautiful bet that’s been 25-30 years ago.