Ken Wilber: The Intellectual Dark Web, an Integral Conversation?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 มี.ค. 2019
- What is the Intellectual Dark Web, and what does its emergence signify? It's the name given to a group of alternative media personalities - from Joe Rogan to Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson. New York Times article here:
But could it also be a spontaneous emergence of a new - and more highly evolved - level of consciousness into the media landscape?
The Integral philosopher Ken Wilber has been predicting the emergence of a new way of thinking since the 90s - one that embraces paradox and nuance, and lets go of the ideology and fixed thinking of the past - an "integral" consciousness.
He believes that the Intellectual Dark Web is the start of a genuinely next level - or Integral - conversation.
This is one of several films with Ken Wilber on Rebel Wisdom.
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Ken Wilber and his team have created a series on Jordan Peterson & the Intellectual Dark Web
integrallife.com/whats-missin...
Rebel Wisdom, thank you for what you do. Now, please get Wilber and Peterson in the same room.
Chovaburaz gosh, that would be beyond amazing!
I hope so🛐🛐
Mix these godheads in all possibly variation.
I've been wanting Exactly that for ages!
I'd rather have Wilbur, Harris and B Weinstein.
Thanks Ken, for returning to the conversation. We need you.
So great to see Ken relatively healthy.
I really am encouraged by this hybridization of Integral and IDW thinking. Frankly, I view this hybridization as providing the framework that could allow society to actually move forward out of the tribalism that has infected it...
More please!
Integral Theory is a hugely valuable tool for sense-making; it's a framework, not an ideology.
That's also the primary flaw of "Hanzi Freinacht", who seems to believe that Integral Theory should be turned into an ideology called Metamodernism. It's basically "teal" without any integration of the lower stage which makes it just as hollow as regressive-green. Values can't just be dogmatic and aesthetic. Values have to be grounded to be useful as a basis for healthy culture, society and politics.
@@LeonardTavast Yes, I noticed that about metamodernism - they largely ignore everything before orange, which seems to miss the point about integrating all forms of knowledge.
Hal Pippack “Hanzi” seems to be interested in what the ideology of “teal” would look like, not in integration. This is a flaw in my mind, BUT “he” does seem to make some important distinctions.
"Amber, you are. Not green. Regressed, you have." Master Wilber.
@Ev MIles why does this upset you?
@Ev MIles whats bothering you? everyone is friends under ken's videos :D
This is funny as hell. You win the Internet.
the tree has many colors at the same time
the tree has many colors at the same time
Schedule Ken and Jordan for a longformat conversation asap.
If Jordan doesn’t know Wilbers material, give him time to get into it, including integral, before the talk.
So good to see Wilber “back” sharing his knowledge and wisdom.
omg yes
This would be Epic. I am sure JP would pick up some great stuff from Ken.
Jordan Peterson prepared for a debate with Zizek by reading the Communist Manifesto as if it was the height of Marxist academic thought, I dont know if Wilbers books will make a difference.
Peterson is out of his depth
@@umwhatthistime you Know it !
Wilber is a great philosopher. I’m glad he’s adding to the conversation.
He's a new age obscurantist, who doesn't know what he's talking about.
@@prenuptials5925 markets work best when they are inclusive (provide more accurate reflection). So it is pretty important he be included here. I'd argue Peterson doesn't know what he is talking about, and how do Shappiro, Ruban and Rogan factor in other than to add to sensationalism. Of course, us other anti-capitalist market individuals would likely not be represented either since it probably defeats the purpose. I wouldn't participate directly even if it were wanted or in demand (trending...lol), and I am far from alone on this.
He's not a philosopher but more of a New Age pop pseudo-psychologist...
Waking up versus growing up : BRILLIANT!
Sounds a bit like a certain Harris and a certain Peterson should make a video with a certain someone...
Wilber seems to be a very valuable voice to add to the IDW conversation. I hope to see more of him in the coming months.
EDIT: Wow, believe it or not was asked to film Wilber in dialogue since this comment and am beginning to post it on our channel. I had no inkling of this happening when I left this comment. I also got to ask him a question which is posted now. I will be releasing a long form discussion between him and Tim Freke in the near future.
But he’s not “dark” by the typical measures. He doesn’t really cut against any grains, moreso he’s like a vanguard for the San Fran spiritual-scientific synchrotism community. He’s a less new-agey, semi-scientific-but still-new-age guru.
Ev MIles i mean San Fran as in his prominence (current or former, idk) in the Institute for Integral Studies- which if you are familiar with the types of folks who attend and the sort of “scholars” which is produced, are on the edge of the edge of new age. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against Wilbur nor am I pro-IDW whatsoever (I am actually only particularly interested in the things the two Weinstein’s have to say). But he is, in my opinion, a contemporary and more sophisticated version of Alan Watts more than anything. An academic counter culture type is not synonymous with IDW.
Yeah lets get him on Rogan and Rubin Report.
@Ev MIles Well stated Ev. Back in the 90s would have enjoyed a conversation between Ken and Werner Erhard. Kens overall knowledge and Werner on epistomology coming from abstractions.
@@allanhall7483 not rubin report, it would be an insult and a waste of time for wilber
Jon haidt: the person that gets the most mentions from your guests who hasnt been one.
I didn't know anything about Ken Wilber, It's clear he as lots to contribute to the conversation, have enjoyed watching the Interview where he expressed his views on Jordan Peterson, and this one is proving just as engaging and enlightening...
Would love to see him and Peterson in a room, Rebel media is fast becoming one of my favoured channels for content.
Great material!
there is one point though which is not touched as far as I can tell: IMHO big part in creating this "regressive, absolutistic left" is teaching kids and young adults "postmodern values" with no respect to which stage they are actually in terms of their development. As a result you get essentially Amber, ethnocenric individuals who accepted Green values in the same manner as their other accept religious commandments.
I've been thinking something similar. I think a lot of these people are temperamentally traditionalists/conservatives that seek to preserve the status quo. They've been fed post-modern values since birth and so post-modernism has become the tradition they fight so vehemently to conserve (not to mention the power they've gained with it). They'd be advocates of the poor and working class, regardless of immutable characteristics, were they truly left progressives. Today's genuine progressives of the left are people like the Weinstein brothers.
Right! That is a good point. And then accepting those green values could even risk slowing or stopping their growing up because they believe that everything is of equal value, and thus there is no mountain to climb etc...
Well done man.. wrong conditioning. In traditional martial arts you are taught things in the right order (a) so you understand the basics first and (b) so you don't harm yourselves or others as more advanced techniques require prior may of the basics. Ditto teaching "higher" developmental stages before one had mastered say orange...
joejoejoepiper Exactly. Growing beyond worldview which supposedly is already all-encompassing and compassionate is already difficult and if you add fundamentalist attitude in the mix ... Seems that it might become even more messed up.
Is there an individual recapitulation of the developmental stages of the species, so that each individual in their own development needs to pass through the stages that humanity has passed through in its quest for cognitive maturity? All of the stages, or is there an abbreviated "best practices" development that touches on the highlights and covers the basics? Or is there no royal road to geometry?
This is what truth sounds like. Genius! And you can tell Wilber is really enjoying this. Look at the twinkle in his eyes.
Thanks so much RW for producing this quality content
Having Ken on has been great. Some other guests it'd be neat to see on Rebel Wisdom (if possible) for various reasons would be Slavoj Zizek (especially in light of the upcoming Peterson interaction), Alexander Bard (thanks, Andrew Sweeny, for introducing me to him!) and 'Hanzi Freinacht' (despite/because of the fact he can sometimes rub the wrong way).
Glad you guys have become the medium for the greater-greater conversation (ie. moving beyond the scope of, say, Rubin and Quillette). You're doing a really good job.
John Vervake would be awesome too
Yes! Vervaeke's series is great. He's been doing the podcast rounds too, and I think he's even more interesting in some of those.
I’ve been part of the Integral community for quite a few years and was led to Rebel Wisdom from there. I’ve read all the comments below these two Ken Wilber videos and I have to hand it to the Rebel Wisdom crowd. It consists of mostly thoughtful comments with very few troll-like comments that are so typical these days of any video or article discussion occurring in the comments section. Bravo!
I've partly been thinking of Jordan Peterson as a warm-up act for Ken Wilber, preparing lots of people for an integral understanding.
Seems like Rebel Wisdom thinks that too!
Really enjoyed this and great to see Wilber content and some integral scaffolding on Rebel Wisdom.
It is so fulfilling to see this meta analysis. Something Peterson might not be able to do in this way because he has been sucked into it so much.
I agree. I wish Peterson would take a step back from things and take a broader perspective. I don't think he is incapable of doing this, but I think he's been living in his own type of bubble for a few decades now that he mistakes his point of view as *being* the broader perspective. I'd love to see him grow more.
And perhaps Ken Wilber is just as sucked into his own meta analysis as you seem to be: th-cam.com/video/TK9PWQeAQZg/w-d-xo.html
@@rexsovereign7474 Could you elaborate? From your little statement there I am not entirely sure if those 22 minutes are worth my time.
@@intrograted792 It takes time.
True.
I've loved Ken Wilber's work since the 90's and I am loving Rebel Media content, you guys are spot on. Keep up the good work :)
Wilber is a voice I have missed due to his health issues. Glad to have him back in full voice.
He's spent most of his career in seclusion. Only came out into the world before for a brief period, when setting up the integral institute.
Wilber is the essential philosopher of our time. He makes sense of what is a very confusing time in history.
What a treat to be able to hear from Wilber. I came across his book 20 years ago. About the same time read some Chardin - Noosephere.
Exceptional lucid and perfectly eloquent overview. Thanks Ken!
Wow! The final words about spiritual paths 'waking up' and 'growing up'! Brilliant! Thank you Ken.
Those are great summaries Ken Wilber does. Very cool. Very refreshing!
Ken Wilber is the light 💡 hope, truth and wisdom in a sea of extreme intellectual personas
Very important to hear Ken speaking about our current time.
Fantastic to see these conversations emerging.
Very interesting way of thinking about these things, thanks for introducing me to Ken Wilber.
Good to see you back in action Ken!
Thought provoking, very informative 👍 Thank you
I'm amazed and grateful for this wonderful conversation. The last part, when Wilber addresses the spiritual awakening and growth stages were extremely enlightening. It explains much of the shortcomings we find on spiritual leaders and communities. I used to read his books on the nineties, but wasn't really capable to appreciate it. I'm going to reread it.
Can tell this will be a gem
It's not really true that there was no conception of "growing up". Both Yoga and Buddhism put high emphasis on ethical conduct. In Yoga it's literally the first two of the eight stages from Patanjali, especially the Yamas. And in Buddhism there can be a reduction to only the meditation aspect, like in Zen Buddhism, but of course the noble eightfold path really also includes right speech/action/livelihood etc.
Whether those are actually realized by a group or a single human is another question.
Ethical conduct and right intentions is one thing. However, there wasn't any knowledge about certain psychological concepts (like the shadow, neglected emotions/desires, trauma etc.) before about 100 years ago. This is what causes the misbehaviour of so many enlightened masters; just simply being unaware of certain underlying functions of the mind. Freeing yourself from the mind does not equal mastering it. The spiritual traditions will for instance deal with fear by going into the fear, and transmuting it, but they tend to do this without knowing where the fear stems from, which can sometimes be from surpressed emotions. It's a kind of dissociative approach, and it doesn't really solve the root cause of the fear. The solution lies in identifying and processing the underlying emotion, and/or assessing your stages/lines of development.
Oh, those are good points. 👍@@raz0rcarich99
Malice, as a force, seems to be underappreciated in these conversations.
@Martin J. Walker
, this is such a good point! Can you suggest any books/videos on the topic? I've never understood malice in my life, but just realised that I've never really tried. In fact I've never believed in it, has always been able to explain why someone behaved in a malicious way - and malice has never been the driving force the way I saw it.
Wow! So dense, such broad strokes of insight. Peterson ideas regarding hierarchies are so well represented here. However I'm very interested though in what colour Wilber places tibetan Buddhism and looking forward to that aspect of discussion. He has such a vast perspective.. Did you guys get any idea where he resourced this?
He would almost definitely say that tibetan buddhism can be practiced from most of the stages... especially amber with its dogmatic beliefs in deities etc... orange with a universal framework for people to become enlightened through right view, right action etc..
Traleg Kyabgon Rinpoche for Integral (Tibetan) Buddhism
I think magenta
The individuals within that system could be at different stages. He was deeply inspired by Clare Graves and Spiral Dynamics.
Fantastic interview! We need KW right now.
Thank you both.
Thank you! I am so glad Wilber's health is better now!
It's time the IDW, Integral Institute, Heterodox Academy, Khan Academy, Wikipedia, and Thiel foundations, among others, work together to organize a Universal University of sorts for the establishment of a new and integrative scientific community.
I'm loving how he talked about the waking up paired with no knowledge of development and how it can cause people to become more entrenched in their beliefs, even if those beliefs cause harm. I think that's the first time I've ever heard anyone give such a warning other than perhaps Carl Jung saying, "Beware of unearned wisdom".
Good work. Adding adult development to this conversation is important
Thanks rebel, these two interviews with Wilber have been real sense making. I'd pay money to see him and JBP talk for a few hours. Any chance you could set that up/host?
I AM NEW TO KEN WILBER'S WORK AND I FIND IT COMPLETELY FASCINATING........
really informative ... tnx mr wilber
I’m so grateful for this channel and this channel’s content/guests/ideas/direction etc. I’ve struggled to quantify my views and my understanding of politics/government/life for years. The intellectual dark web, and all that encompass its spectrum, make me feel a little less crazy, and a whole lot more excited, when trying to define my beliefs and observations of the natural world.
Good to see you back in action Ken
This analysis of how/why parts of the left and right have moved onto different planes while other parts remain on the original plane-it’s brilliant as an explanation, really illuminates what is going on (commenting as someone who only knows of Wilber through these few RW videos).
Pls get Wilber has long-form conversation with Joe Rogan ASAP. I expect for 3-r4 hours if Joe has ability to digest knowledge of this great man
Amazing dissemination of the current political/philosophical arena. Thank you for the upload!
in a sense, teal has always existed -but the number of thinkers and human beings that were on this level was relatively minute.
whats forever amazing about wilbers work is that you can apply it to so much previous thought and data. and its so relevant. so clarifying.
I didn't realise until watching this video that Ken Wilber was the guy who edited "transformations of consciousness" I read that book this summer while I travelled around the south island of NZ. It was a really informative book and a great look at the yogic and meditation developmental models really quite in-depthly. I tripped on acid after reading some of it (as I wanted to try and implement some of the concepts into my meditative practice) and it mingled with my experience profoundly. Balance has such a deep symbolic meaning. It opened my thinking to attempt to imagine what it would literally be like to think from the perspective of these ideological groups. That sort of frightened me because to think entirely from those perspectives would mean I wasn't me in a very fundamental sense. The mix of these ideas and acid led to me considering what it is like to see the world from the ducks perspective (we had free roaming ducks in the camp I was staying at). The complex layering of how our perceptual systems synthesise and integrate (as well as exclude) stimuli was fascinating to contemplate. I had a few ideas about it but I can't prove any of it, it's just conjecture. A big thanks to this channel and Ken from a young man looking to make his way in this world as an aspiring psychologist, these concepts are invaluable.
Found out about Ken Wilber recently while searching the web for jungian articles & found a blog that had an entry on Integral Theory, Quadrants, etc. Interesting rabbit hole
The last 10 - 15 minutes of the talk are the best and most valuable. The fact that the spiritual experience by itself is not enough to change human fundamental behavior, no matter how "woken up" and "enlightened" you may get - is of the utmost importance.
I say that is another example - shows that - happens because of - Fundamental Human Faults.
Those have such influence on us "simply" because we are not actively aware of them. Therefore they influence us too much and we dont have proper tools or ways to mitigate and balance that influence. Its very important to realize that they cannot be removed completely - only balanced.
Because they are literally fundamental and arise from most fundamental abilities and features living being have.
Extremely astute analysis, wow, good stuff! At this point I confess ignorance in having never heard of Ken; something I'll have to remedy. Good one!
Lars Bjerregaard .....Now that you’ve heard of Ken, how do you plan to remedy your ignorance of Ken?....unless your ignorance is multiplied exponentially with awareness.....which I know is impossible in the human kingdom....
Wow sage words what a brilliant man. Thanks RW!
Wow!.Just wow.....
Thanks From India
Thanks again RW! Watched twice, liked, and will watch again. Please don't get Iain McGilchrist, JBP and Wilber together or my head might explode.
There is so much to unpack with his views. The long term view to individual progress with layers and generation for one.
A lot of it links to solid foundation though 😀.
I am enjoying this. I like what Wilber says about the regressive Left. But what can be done? I wish he could talk about it.
Great to see him reflect these thoughts. Those on either left or right would benefit even from reading his most personal book Grace & Grit about the way personal loss can be looked at and dealt with.
However on the notions of Waking Up being unable to see the Growing up, i must say Hindu philosophical thought had embedded in it many developmental nuances. It wasnt like this philosophy was unaware of growing up. The way it accounted for it is by accounting for changing times and inherently building in capacities to change & adapt. The only thing is it is a slow process and also too subtle to be perceptible in its nascent stages. One of the markers with in Hindu philosophical thought is high levels of diversity , it is infact a collection of world views. Here i am not talking about spiritual communities etc i am talking about philosophical thought that shapes the journey of the individual ( vyashti) and collective ( samishti).
Yeah, hinduism is great and wise. I tend to forget. I will alzo look up the book you reccomend.
The ID sometimes seem to not know if it is modernist or integral, and I've felt that movement really really needs Ken to add some parts that are missing, but the ID is just on the verge of
This.
Wilbur and integral theory has such a potential to transform your paradigms...it's unimaginable...I hope we can hear more from them...seems like the only way out of the madness that lies in the first tier....thank God we have this model of reality....rebel wisdom is my classroom for now....
Anyone have a chart or descrition of his color/personality theory of stages?
WElcome back Ken Wilber!
New to integal thinking. Why was he gone.
@@alextrusk1713 He's been very ill for about a decade.
The mean GREEN meme. KW was all over this decades ago. Kendalf the White has appeared. Tears of joy to see him again.
spiral dynamics...where is Bob Beck who developed this ?
U r presenting it well.
By far the greatest breakdown of the current climate that can be found. If you've found better link me please (actually, that would be fantastic).
What is the book that he mentions on Jung?
Knowing this color model by Laroux, I was wondering what the relation is between the two people. It appears Ken Wilber is used as endorsement for Larourx book (see www.reinventingorganizations.com). So I'm a bit surprised not to find a reference to the origin of the model.
Did anyone noticed his voice sounds like Master Yoda? Love it!
Wow, I dunno if it's from his illness, but he sounds so much like Yoda now. I suppose it's extremely fitting
Ken at his best - “cleaning up”! Can anyone please get Ken and John Lamb Lash together?
I'm trying my very best to be as open-minded as I can be about Integral Theory (indeed, it seems to make a lot of sense), but recourse to Carl Sagan's "baloney detection kit" is keeping me from going in (or at leas all in).
It's a lot to take in and it makes sense you'd want to test it thoroughly. It's an advance imo, but only a part of collective meaning making.
Yes, you need to upgrade your strictly scienced based detection kit to a more multidimensional one. That is the"whole" point.😊
Kegan's 5 stages of development has a lot of similarities with Wilber's model, except the 5th stage (Wilber's green) is actually a meta-rational, meta-sytematic stage of maturity which Kegan sees a very small percentage of the population attaining. David Chapman (Meaningness blog) builds on these ideas.
First time I've ever come across this guy and I think I'm after idolising him haha
Hah, check out Sex, Ecology, Spirituality. I started with that one and it's worth it. Most valuable book I ever read.
get Wilber and Peterson in the same room.
What level were the stoics?
I’m adding to the comments. Wilber and Petersen needs to happen
It’s interesting looking at content about the IDW in June of 2021. How fleeting it was. Was this purely down to Dave Rubin’s embarrassing lack of intellectual rigour or his flagrant move towards the right to improve his revenue stream? Or was it that the framework in which this type of discourse was being encouraged, was morphing and shifting so swiftly, that it was impossible to publicly state what it was without that very act ultimately destroying the claim that such a thing exists. Much like uncertainty principle. The idea that the very act of absolute explanation or observation distorts the outcome of the experiment.
It's amazing how clear things become when you explain them... It just seemed like people where going mad... Thank you for your insight
This is a very interesting interview. My main criticism is that Wilber's exegesis of Exodus is very poor indeed. The Biblical authors are absolutely not telling a literal story. They are all parables about enlightenmment, or salvation, and the creation of the Universe, that is the start point of the cycle in a Universe that cascades between birth and death ad infinitum. This is all encoded within the 14th Chapter of Exodus. As a mystic and occultist, let me tell you all, the JP's exegeses are are excellent. He isn't quite on the money, but boy, I am so impressed with his intellectual astuteness. He is on the right lines. JP is quite right to down play the literal level of scriptures.
Familiar with JP.
Do you have a link to more info on this?
I have to wonder whether the problem that Ken outlines with the green tier isn’t just the green tier reasoning the amber tier into the green worldview prematurely….
has anyone mapped these to neural states? ex. integrated thinking involves far more brain cross firing and prefrontal reliance than does power thinking, which primarily invokes hedonistic drives centered around reproductive risk/reward. like healthy reality reflected in physical neural networks. like as we realize that the differences between objects which exist in reality are differences in degree and not kind, our brains develop to reflect that ‘reality ‘. you perhaps theres a way to see how MRI scans of people have changed over time (between eras of thought) or within a time frame and between types of thinkers (one era, diff mindsets) to reflect this. idk just a thought.
The IDW conversation will explode when its leaders come in contact with Ken Wilber and Integral Life ideas. It’s just a matter of time- evolution will have it no other way.
Oops, I mistook this for Rebel Wilson's channel. I'll just let myself out.
Practically speaking, given that 2020 is an election year, how should those who align with the Orange philosophy participate in a voting system when the options given only represent extreme green and dark amber? I would argue, this of course is intentional and that it has perpetually been driven as a divisive strategy in collaboration between both extremes.
An end to the party system in general...?
"When you label me ...."
first time ever listening to Ken Wilber. Wow.
Really cool
My bull-shit alarms were going crazy in the end. We are the only one in the world with this wonderful theory, that is why we will not create terrorists. Yep, right!
I haven't got to that part but I'm familiar with the argument. Terrorists are partly a response to a world in which there's no good place for them. The "we" that can help provide a place with honor and a way forward for the exiles helps reduce terrorism. We haven't done that yet but that's a good direction.
G. Anderson
You have a good B.S. meter
Ken Wilber again? You. Are. Spoiling. Us.
Started to happen? When serten strategies came into fruition I think is a more proper way to put it.
Ken looks a little healthier than in the past several years.
I wonder now if hitler was actually an enlightened Nazi.
And I wonder further, if an enlightened being of any kind, is a “disaster” as ken ended the talk with, or if one such enlightened being is merely an integral necessity. Now I’m wondering about integral teaching with a bias. And I wonder if I become enlightened what havoc I might cause in my wake...And now I’m having very mature arguments with an ex family member in my head. I’m becoming enlightened for sure.
When are we going to get 2nd tier parties for parliament? Seems at least a decade away, doesn't it?
You can always found one, Klaus.
that Andrew Yang guy might be promising imo
The metamodernists would more or less self-identity as equivalent to Integral's tier 2. Denmark has a metamodern party called Alternative.
Some more info on the metamodern movement;
metamoderna.org/metamodern-art-culture-and-politics
We currently have some Stage Green Leaders at the Leading-Edge of Politics, naturally it will take time for Tier 2 Stage Yellow Leaders to emerge - currently only 30% of Europe & America is at stage green, and less than 2% of the World is at stage yellow so it will likely take some time
No one in the government is 2nd tier, the GOP is deep in stage Orange with some Blue(thanks to the religious right and alt-right) and the Dems are midway between Orange and Green.
the dimensional reality doesnt change because human abstracted it differently that was what it was regardless of the ideological and emotional abstractions
How I wish that spiral and explanatory words were in our vision on the right side of the screen during the talking. (Maybe I'll have to copy it down and have it in front of me and listen again). It is a fascinating breakdown/description of how things are.
What is dangling from his finger?