Growing up: Egoic development, Individuation, self development, career development. 1st half of life. Waking Up: Healing the ego/shadow, integrating one's ego with one's Soul. Becoming one's Soul. Recognizing and realizing one's Soul is part of Spirit. Non dual: recognizing that one is a manifestation of Spirit itself.
So true and even more obvious and relevant three years later. Ken’s work mapped this years ago. Reading his books installed the map behind my eyelids and I’m always questioning where I’m operating at. It’s messy. The thing is, how do -or is it ethical to even consider doing- accelerate the growth to world centric? Or how else do we stop ourselves destroying everything while we are still growing up?
LOADED WITH WISDOM. The video has key words on screen to look for more details. First half is explaination and history and last part has the answer to the question. Thank you.
Ken Wilber is such a forward thinker. We need less materialistic philosophers, there are too many of them, and so very few who include consciousness. He has an amazing mind and has brought so much to humanity.... The only thing I could say is that he is so complicated and complex.... but very grateful for all his work, so helpful to understand reality from a deep perspective.
I think a big reason that real progress isn't being made has very much to do with economics. This branch of philosophy has become far more important, artificially, than is useful. I say that economics is the number one problem that holds humanity back. Economics is the major problem. It becomes more and more complex and burdensome the more it is applied to human affairs, with exponential human suffering to mark its failings, just to keep an outdated idea alive.
But why do we have such an economic system? Economics is a big factor in shaping our societies, for sure! But that's the external reflection of our collective internal development? Both influence each other. I think we need to find ways to both change our infrastructure and state of consciousness. Work from both sides best as we can. Tier 2 economic system wouldn't have the byproduct of so much suffering.. But what will that look like? o.O
Hey, you guys seem to have put put the videos in reverse order when creating the Playlist for this chat. This video, which is labeled "Part 1" and is the beginning of the conversation is in the 9th slot and the last video (end of the talk) is in the first position in the Playlist. Also, would be much appreciated if you guys could continue to upload the entire chat as one long file rather than segmenting and placing into a Playlist. Perhaps just do both?
If you superficially read Baha;i writings, it sounds like the other religions of the Book. But if you read carefully, you find "the universe in folded within you" , you find the great nest of being, you find personal growth in development of the virtues, you find all 4 quadrants (individual and cultural development, as well as instruction to study the sciences and arts. Plus He (the founder Baha'u'llah) wrote for different Levels because He said that people and countries are at different stages of growth and development, so he includes guidance for each level. I personally started at one level and as I studied people like Ken Wilber and psychology and science etc, and as my experiences started to cause me to question things, I found more and more in the writings that spoke to each of the stages and states I went through. It is both world centric and transcendent as well as redefining terms like God (unknowable essence) soul and spirit. It encourages questioning and researching, and is guidance for individual, community, governance (grass roots, decentralized, and fluid in many ways to accommodate growth and development of humankind) I can go on and on, but my point is maybe Ken Wilber has not really studied Baha'i enough to say no wisdom tradition on the planet is integral. I have been a Baha'i for 50 years, but I have changed worldviews many times. It is not the absolute only truth, He says it is relative, but it is a very impressive integral system.
Slavery is now debt and wage slavery. Banks create the common currency simply by bookkeeping entry and define these numbers as interest bearing debts. Listen to talks by Richard Werner, Bernard Litaer, Ben Dyson for details on this. Ive never heard eggheads Ken Wilber or Jordan Peterson even mutter a word about this hidden gaming of the economy yet among those who study this it is well known. Theres a reason for this colluding silence though because apparently academia punishes people who speak out about it. Nonetheless both Wilber and Peterson are weak on economics even though this economic worldview more than any other is the problem with todays world.
I agree that the insanely corrupt banking system is at the root of most of the world's problems. Interestingly, I had my first insight into this at the age of 20 when I had a "wakening" experience. (Wilbur talks about waking up as opposed to growing up.) Years later I learned that my initial glimmer was a real thing, and I still have a hard time understanding why there isn't more of a public outcry. It seems to be some kind of Emperor and his new clothes phenomenon. But back to Wilbur: I think it would be better to simply ask him about it rather than to call him an "egghead." We need to work together and insults are destructive.
I agree with what you said; Debt is a form of slavery. However, if people use debt(borrowed money) correctly they can Grow their wealth, their business etc. When people borrow money for irresponsible reasons such as greed rather than growth it traps them into becoming an engendered servant to banks. People need to Wake up and Grow up (Wilber) and take responsibility(Peterson) for their gluttonous actions and not be deceived into a gluttonous material quest for more and more. ( I do understand hardships happen and people end up indedt for others reasons) Dr Peterson talks about the world being a scary place with lots of malevolent forces within us and outside of us. People can protect themselves by recognizing their internal demons (greed) and recognizing outside dangerous (banks/excessive consurmism, etc) that want to exploit us. So, first thing first, "Wake up" and "Clean your room"! Get educated and make good choices!
@@clowdzfrumubuv9354 ... why is there no public outcry about the corrupt RED #3 Hylic Hegemonic retards banking system? ... Because 85% of them in the West are RED #3 Hylic retards themselves ... scrabbling around somewhere in THAT "other world" RED #3 snakes and ladders game "hierarchy" ... trying to better their monetary position and etc ... ... while the rest of the 15% us ... try to keep everything else in check ... attending to the whole and etc ... ... yet with 85% bearing down on the 15% ... everything is sinking, sinking!
@@lisajarvie9650 I Agree that individuals might seem to prosper within this system, thats abundantly evident, but at what ultimate cost? For example if a person sets out to buy 1 house for $200,000, but over the course of the Interest Bearing Loan has to pay for two houses = $400,000, where does the Energy and Re-sources to earn that extra $200,000 come from? Its comes ultimately from the Earth itself as everything does. So in this one example I'm saying this system is Taxing the Earth to make Financiers Wealthy and Powerful.
The integral model is fun to play with but in the broad generalizations he makes he doesn't reference any recent scholarship (unless there isn't any) so I'm hesitant to accept his thought as scientific as opposed to speculation.
Yes but these 60 or 70 percent of people that are in lower developmental stages are because culture or society values reinforce them not to develop and I see clearly an inflexion point before and after the 70s and 80s. Before the 80s TV programs where full of interview with philosophers talking about existential topics, music was more profound and poetic. So there is a deliberate shifting point towards a more animalistic nature in meanstream culture and I would say that the conservative revolution of the 80s was the responsable of it. In other words you need to educate people in questions like global warming, cience or philosophy and not getting rich offering them w sensacionalist programs that are adictive. In other words, our society reinforce more sociopatic values ( people who are in stage1) for some reason, maybe to increase economic growth which is the main western obsesion.
Culture and society has always reinforced the current or previous stage that the majority of the population is at. Conscious evolution doesn't happen by mindlessly following your cultural programming. Most people tend to follow the herd and don't evolve much through life once they reach adult age. As humanity evolves through time, then people evolve too, in general, each new generation has the potential to evolve to a higher level than the previous one. With independent thinking it's possible to reach 2nd tier in one lifetime. Each level takes about 7 - 10 years give or take. I don't know why most people get stuck somewhere and stop growing. I think perhaps modern technologies like the invention of TV and now the internet and the power of big tech, and social media, we have been intentionally psychologically programmed to stay asleep so we can be more easily manipulated to be slaves and consumers. I may be wrong, but I think right now, the power structures, those in control of this planet are operating from the orange level of consciousness. Which is a self focused, money/profit model. Values are individualistic, success is measured in money and material wealth. If you are at orange and have become materially successful, there is little motivation to question any of your values and move towards green. Each level has its light and dark side. Wokeism and extreme leftism are the dark side of green. We are all equal and should be treated the same and be included, unless you have a different opinion, and then you are cancelled. The shadow side of green.
I really wished that he would give a few more pointers..As someone who cares deeply about our planet's future, I just get into a despair sometimes, and now I see how much bigger the struggle is. I guess we are in this for the long run?
I suspect that he would say that we are all integrally joined to all existence so change starts from within. Discovering our own wholeness influences everything positively.
Lots of thinking and verbalizing by KW. Lots. And this has resulted in what exactly? What is the progress made or the problems solved? Maybe next video I'll wear earbuds and plant a tree🌳. At least then I will be sure the time is well spent.
The New Testament terminology equivalent to 'awakening' is 'metanoia' (transformation of one's mind), usually translated as 'repentance'. Unfortunately, the understanding of 'repentance' is usually limited only to 'being remorseful of one's sins,' or at most, turning from evil and turning to good.
Are there any books by KW that specifically focuses on T2? Global climate change: Wonder why KW didn't specifically mention China and India...the countries with the largest impact on global climate? Paris climate agreement and similar agreements, are useless until the most important signers are at higher developmental stages....imo.
Imo, carbon emissions should be measured per capita and not per country or region. Per region, the US or the EU are obviously big polluters, whereas f.ex. Minnesota or Norway are not. In fact, many people in Norway (where I come from) use this argument, that Norway is such a small country, so it doesn't matter what Norway do with its carbon emissions and therefore we shouldn't care. For obvious reasons this logically broken way of thinking could be dangerous. That said, China's emissions per capita are already higher than in many western countries and not at all sustainable, whereas India has still some way to go to be on par with western countries.
Why think that Waking Up is not just another Line of Development? All the conceptual Lines of Development, are Knowns, 'Skills', Epistemes, collected, accumulated and/or systematized/synthetised Phenomenological Experiences, sometimes (or often, or eventually) maybe even developing into special *Perspectives* ; those processes which interact with each other in the Subjectivity(ies) of the Self(ves), contributing to continual formation of the Self(ves). When you dispose of different Perspectives to 'tackle' a particular situation, reality or problem, it works mostly as if you can SHIFT from a Conscious State to another - when you are able to shift Perspectives; and sometimes you are 'forced' into a shift of Perspective, like when we are going through a completely new and personally *(re)signifying* Experience (e.g., some of the astronauts' experiential stories about the planet Earth, when they first seen it from orbit). When you 'put the glasses on' (like in the movie _We Live_ analysed through that Critique of Ideology, Zizek's famous extract video), the glasses which represents a Perspective of Critique of Ideology, is much like as if you enter into a skilled or technical (anyways, phenomenological) State of Consciousness just as if you started some momentaneous practice of Mindfulness meditation; it's, essentially, the same 'substance'; the same 'shit'; even though, of course, each 'Perspective' or 'Conscious State', or 'running Episteme', on that complex situation, has its own 'potentials'. So, it seems likely there is no need to treat 'Waking Up' as a special thing; it's as much relevant than ANY other potentially identifiable (conceptually) Line of Development; it's all bodily *Corporeal* stuff: *Corporeality* (trying to go beyond mere Phenomenological/Mind/Conscious limitating concepts).
Good Point. From what I gleaned from this, your Asking a “Why Wake Up” Question? and Why is one Potential greater than any other Potential? Why is one Prioritized over Another? Eg Why Awaken when you could Grow in the Vectors of Emotional or Rational or Moral or Sexual Development etc This seems to be a Self-Actualisation Question. Waking Up vs Growing Up The Growing up Lines of Development are Independent from the Awakening Line. Ie we know this Because you can have an Enlightened Slave Owner. High in Awakening but lower in Morality. So they are definitively separate but they’re not Prioritized. As you said, it’s unclear to me whether one should Prioritize one Potential Vector of Growth over another. I can only think of if your Low in one of the potentials then obviously you could Prioritise it For Clear Reasons! Eg If I’m High in Awakening but low in Moral Development you could boost Morals because it’s lagging behind. But in the Self-Actualization process it’s not obvious whether you should grow in a delineated fashion one Potential more and over another Potential rather than grow them side by side simultaneously. Again, you would be doing this For Reasons. Ie I want to become a Well-rounded Complete Human Being vs I want to become a World class Chess Player. So I think it comes down to... [*] - Wide Potential vs Deep Potential. And Consiousness: - it’s better to be Consious of All of One Potentials because then it at least gives you Choice & Flexibility in the Matter.
@@StandardProceduree Yes, that crossed, dual, general approach: Wide|Deep Potential, for my personal experience, seems more integrative than some propositions in integral meta-theory. So, what seems to me is that Integral Meta-Theory, in its 'map of the self,' has eventually made certain bold distinctions (e.g., Waking Up × Growing Up; but I still find adequate, even though limited and somehow shadowing: States × Stages - I'll present this issue later) which created a likely misleading, rigid-like idea about HOW are actually Diverse, Complex and Inter-Mixed, the human being with his/her self. I mean, one can Wake Up & Grow Up by 'just' having a deep loving relationship with someone, developing new understanding & feel about existence, oneself, otherselves, nature, the world and the cosmo, etc. ⋄ "States of Consciousness" do not exist outside of "Stages of Development" and vice-versa. Whenever one is in a state (more likely: in a mix of states at a time, but where perhaps one or another state is predominant), he/she is also in a stage (or more likely again: in a mix of stages simultaneously, but with one or another stage being more active/predominant; just like those scans of the brain/body). So one cannot even ACCESS States without Stages or vice-versa; which would mean, therefore, that all the "Ups" goals are just a completly arbitrary set of reduccionistic Lines of Development. Its setup lacks the Transdisciplinary approach, because it 'packs down' all human activities inside that Growing Up box, thinking that the remaining Ups are so different and so special - worse: that one can really separate those things meta-theoretically. On the contrary, a good Meta-Theory would exist to show us that we still know nothing - or very, very little.
Captain Subversive Corsair Yeah True. It all comes down to How we make Distinctions. And How we Understand Things. Integral has made the 10 or so Key Distnictions. But the HOW and the WHY, the Wisdom & the Understanding is yet to be made. I Agree with your point Metaphysically regarding States being Inseparable from Stages, and that States have their basis in Stages and vice verse Etc Yet I don’t agree Phenomenologically because Humans can be at the Same Stage and be at vastly different States. Ie The Same World-View but not Same Consiousness. So while both are related contained together, it’s still a Powerful distinction to make as to WHY they are at a vastly different States of Consiousness. ~ Why are their 15yr Old enlightened Sages, with the Same Stage Development as those his age? His State Experiance doesn’t seem to correspond or Collerate to his Stage At all? Despite the fact that States & Stages Must be linked by virtue of the State vs Structures Distniction - ‘That every Structure has a corresponding state, and every state a corresponding structure.’ So I agree the meta-model is limited but is making Powerful Observations about Reality despite its lack of Explanatory Power into WHY and HOW it works. This Meta-Theoretical scaffold building is great for its Useabability & Practical Value but not if people begin to build on it as if All of it is metaphysically true. Ultimately it makes a Series of Powerful Distictions; but has limited Explanatory Power. It has Insights into WHAT is going on, but not WHY or HOW it’s going on. And as you say, even the WHAT is up for debate as it’s not clear why Priority is given to Those UP Goals, or even if so, If they can even be said to be Distinct from each other at all. Don’t suppose you’ve seen Ken’s program Superhuman OS? And what your thoughts are on It, or about The Best Operating System one can have for your Mind? Would love to here what you think
@@StandardProceduree The problem deriving from the concept of the Stages, leads, also, directly to the question of: "¿But the Stage of 'WHAT' thing?". There comes, perhaps, the concept of the Lines of Development to try and tackle this ('HORIZONTAL-axis' or "Wide Potential" as you have put) differentiating problem -and, immediatly, we tend to turn into dangerous, somehow arbitrary, Multidisciplinary (as in the Conventional School Education systems that develops over-verticalized, separated Subjects) Approach. Phenomenologically, what I would propose is that, in the exemple of the 15 years old enlightened sages, what we have in him or maybe in her is that 'in a certain' Dimension (or in a particular set of Dimensions), from the Multi-Dimensionality of Human Society/Experience/Existence/Activities, this kid has developed 'higher Stages' (of some 'skill', like for example in this case, certain Meditative practices or even praxises) which provided him with NEW possibilities of States of Consciousness OR the possibility of development an essential State already present but on a 'higher Stage' of such State -if we could scientifically track somehow the changes/developments of States in relationship to the changes/developments of Stages). Now, for the case of people having the same World-View (a ¿Stage?) but not the same Consciousness (a ¿State?), I think this brings a problematic which would be: ¿What would we mean by a particular World-View? (I mean, if it means the holarchy model of the "-Centrics", like Egocentric/Ethnocentric/Worldcentric/Planetocentric/Kosmocentric, it is ok but I see HUGE epistemic problems, because it is rather impossible for a Human Being to develop true, Empathetic Agency towards so many, so large, so complex and diversified Realities; it's like the "Distinctions": at some point it's necessary to define what we are going to Do; and most likely or inevitable, this requires to become Exclusive; even though it is plausible that higher Sates of Consciousness suggest, on the contrary, that we become more and more Inclusive (but this Inclusiveness sometimes turns down to be more an idealistic thing than a practical thing; and so far I haven't seen an Interdisciplary Approach in Integral Meta-Theory with the Wits to bridge up such kind of structured Gaps. On the other hand, in the crossing of some fields, like Education & Epistemology, many academics and educators have been working on the concept of "Competences" (could be seen, alegorically and not without problems, as "Skills" in the ludic universe of RPG games); Even though I'm skeptical and critical of any model, I appretiate the Competence model in the sense that it attempts to (but maybe by some accidental convergence of ideais of our times) breakdown some aspects of Stages/States; I guess it is developed from previous epistemological investigation and subdivision of 'Knowns' (Know-Know [Knowledge], Know-How [Ability], Know-How-To-Be [Attitude]; and perhaps more). In my personal investigation, the approach of States & Stages, perhaps not so to Map in general terms, but especially in order to 'TRACK' the development processes, as well as the current contextes, of the Selves, might actually require deeper reconsiderations. ⋄ I'm sorry I can't answer the whole of your post yet. But I will soon. (I'm very interested in the relationships between Culture and Technology, so it will be a good investigation for me the OS issue).
@@StandardProceduree I'm back; My last post was a bit chaotic; There was already some time I didn't jump into Integral (Meta-)Theory investigations, and this conversation helped me generate many new notions; so thank you for your engagement. So, indeed I wasn't aware of the references in your latest paragraph; I could find some more valuable information but especially on 'Superhuman OS'. I need to recontextualize the whole subject, though, so let me put it this way first, as I see it now: Integral (Meta-)Theory (especially in its theoretical form) is actually 'Interdisciplinary Philosophy'; it was developed precisely with a methodology to bridge the gaps/abysses/contradictions between Disciplinas (or 'schools') such as Psychology, Philosophy, Phenomenology, Theology, Religion, Anthropology, Culture. Of course there was a lot of Transdisciplinary Approach in its Research and Experience of the researcher. As a set of model and ideas, it doesn't necessarly translate into a Transdisciplinary Approach, and this is why it cannot effectively bridge the fundamental gaps to include Transdisciplinary: Methodology, (Re)Education, and (I'd even go somehow radical and bold): Arts. So, I think a discussion of what it is or should be (Theory, Meta-Theory, Interdisciplinary Philosophy, Social/Cultural Movement [the 'Integral' panaceia], etc.), although interesting and not unimportant, is accessory once this is mapped out to this point. Now, for the 'Superhuman OS', in the Context of our 'Global' Society nowadays, the way I see may sound a bit excessively critical and 'hard-talk' (but I have grave reasons for thinking this way today, because I myself have been, I guess just like you and many other people around the world, in a legitimate "Quest" for 'Integration', even before learning about Integral (Meta-)Theory). So, the first thingS which struck me is that deliberated notion that only a few must be, let's say, 'Reeducated' in an 'Integral Way', because there is, historically, that interpretation that there is only need of a few % of people on a higher 'Stage' of Consciousness development, in order to generate Transformations & Revolutions in Society. I'm quite skeptical today if (¿we all should know about this critical idea, right?) taking History events/motifs as a rule of thumb to predict the future is a good idea (but it can be a smart move though); Since I'm adept to 'Open Source Philosophy' in regard not only to Software, I see no integrative-inclusive matter in not having approachs such as Open Source Integral dispositives for example. But I have nothing against Business; and I'm not saying it is 'Bad Business'; it sounds noble and plausible effective (¿maybe on the long-term? Who knows.); I just wonder if the relatively few people that will benefit from it, will actually be able to 'Share' their new Powers/Wisdoms in some Revolutionary/Integral fashion, or if they'll just keep it using their 'Better Selves' mainly in benefit of their, let's say, more 'Archaic' aspects of their lives and their social circles. I know this is VERY complex… I see the proper cultivations of Community as KEY, but at the same time, we have huge difficulties (especially because of our Individualistic Culture) in developing Community. There is a profound lack of Interdisciplinarity & Transdisciplinarity in Community Development; and for me, High-Level Consciousness is able to bridge such gaps Socially, _even_ in Business. I'm not quite sure "Self-Development" strategies are going into this way (not trying to say they are not fundamental too: we've got our own _Timo_ [used in the word Timocracy] to take care of): because the name of the Individualistic-Phenomenological Bait, from the start, is: "DEVELOP YOUR SELF", and not something like "DEVELOP OURSELVES / OUR COMMUNITY / LET'S GROW TOGETHER". So, maybe one interesting question would be: ¿Is it possible to plan properly, starting with 'Subversive Desire'? That is, like a Trojan Horse for Community development starting from the Individual (Self-Development) expanding and including to (Community-Development). I doubt because precisely is the Inter-Subjectivity (or the development of Subjetive Plural quadrant) that should not lag behind Intra-Subjectivity, and other more individualistic Development/Resources/stuff/etc.; Also, because Inter-Subjectivity can't grow WITH Inter-Subjectivity work (¿and WHERE do we 'find' this 'school' nowadays? It's like the said: "We learn to Draw, Drawing." [and of course, by Studying Drawing]; so how do we… 'Study/Develop Community' (i.e., Developing the Interconnected Selves in realtime: in Dynamic Motion in a Concrete Context/Environment); this I sense as a urgent hot topic for the past, present and future of Humanity). Finally, I mut say I don't really know much about all the branches of Integral 'movement', and perhaps I'm being quite wrong about the way I'm pointing my thoughts towards it. Nonelethless, I do believe these reflections are not irrelevant; maybe applyable in other Contextes. Perhaps you've got more contributions to all or some of these ideas?
@Ozren S ... 2y ago ....yups ... all the Ken Wilber mob do ... is postulate ... Yet ... Ken Wilber, many many years ago ... at SAND Conference ... said "Here is the AQAL and I need you people to install it" ... and such is met with blank stares ... and off into postulation they all go ... YET ... the AQAL is and must go into every nation ... "devoid of RED #3" ... So ... the "Big Stick!" ... is now being pointed at every male apex bloodline leader ... (get it in and "get moving") (cattle "move em on UP" your ppl) We have to run with it ... the AQAL ... as it is "common heritage" ... hae = blood ... to all mankind ...
Sorry. I tried to follow but couldn’t accept his position re global warming. Also, how does he measure growing up. Are the stages of growth objective ?
When he says Growing Up, he refers to the levels of complexity of consciousness. There are many different models of levels of growth covering many different facets, from individuals (values, morals, cognitive intelligence, spiritual intelligence, social intelligence, self sense, etcetera) to collectives (technology, etcetera). You'd be best reading Ken's work for a thorough explanation. His basic point is that because people centred at Amber - 70% of the world population - cannot even comprehend global (or indeed, universal) phenomena, global warming is simply not a concern for them and it can't be - it's not possible. Therefore, of course, they won't be able to solve it! Only when you get to Orange does "global" (and universal)even make sense to you. ~ Another point I'll add is that the stage above Orange, Green, as Ken has said on several occasions, really takes the environment and the planet seriously, not to mention marginalisation, hierarchies, and so forth. Green is a matured worldcentrism.
I need " Religion of tomorrow " in german language . Terry Patton ' s book is translated here . Germany need ' s All books from Ken , i think . " Integrale Meditations " was the last translated Ken - Wilber - book here . I love Ken . He is HOPE .
I have listened to about three of his “speeches” - I mean, get to the point of what the question asked. So more questions can be asked and discussed. He could have summed this up in 5 mins.
@@jupiterinaries6150 ... How does Ken Wilber know that 70+% humanity is at level #4 ethnocentric and #3 "lower"? ... from the URQ behaviour ... and from the ULQ Mind thinking ... this is how lower level people "identify" themselves at whichever levels, so you can gauge the human population size of that level ...
@@jupiterinaries6150 Ken Wilber and thousands of followers ... have not really checked people off ... AQAL levels tested them scientifically ... some have as per the vertical "Lines" in AQAL ... you can see their sciences adder in to the mapping ... But this is not "broad scale" whole population/s ... that "other" people are doing now, eg China, etc ... For Ken Wilber mob ... it's more of ... which peoples at what AQAL level build ... are higher or lower than me ... are ... at a previous or post evolutionary construction build to me ... I start with AQAL "Piaget" levels ... per age ... infants = 1 reflex driven ... little children = 2 impulse driven ... primary school kids are 4, rule role conformity, then 5, rational scientific So they are all Tier 1 levels aka Worldview Structures ... Tier 1 belongs to children ... And THAT is where gdp-HDI ... human development ... STOPS ... for 99% of "adults" on planet ... 99% Adults are not keeping on with the growing up ... So ... my maths comes out similar to Ken Wilber mob stats ... 99% Adults are retarded for age ... So, then you have to switch across to say Maslow's pyramid levels ... and see what's higher than Piagets max out at level 5 ... and who is achieving them the higher 7, 8, etc levels ... (that I myself have come through and checked off as LDE = laid down and enduring) ... ... and you see that 99% of adults have NOT ...
I trust Ken Wilber on anything to do with psychology, enlightenment study, but there is something that is not clear at all, it is climate study...not clear at all
Both. Authentic, and intellectual. He has a video from his misspent youth 😊, hooked up to a brain monitor and consciously changing his own brain wave states through meditation. Visionary.
No. Its the Europens who hoisted the flag of Modren Enlightenment. Dillema is...now Europen Enlightenment has culminated into ruthless Capitalism which is buldozing ethical aspect of humanity. Stay blessed.
Dear Ken, You have a wonderful grasp of so much information! Very informative. However, in my mind, you are unrealistically pessimistic. So many good things are happening in the world. If you were trained in more recent psychology, I believe you would see more clearly how much we are developing as a race. Young people, are so much more mature in their thinking because psychological, including moral truths, are being learned everywhere! And how can you be awakened without maturing? Becoming awake means opening up to your own suffering and that of others. I am not young myself, and I know how tempting it is to become cynical as we get older--a tendency we all have to look at closely if we are going about teaching others.
I wonder if you still have the same opinion a year later, after 2020 and even worse the beginning of 2021. Seems to me that Ken's predictions from 10 years ago have materialized now. Until we have a majority of leaders on this planet at tier 2, I don't have much hope for humanity.
Huh?! At the end of the video: "It's a genuine issue." That's it? Ken seems pretty blasé at the end. The consequences of his conclusion would be catastrophic on a global level. He claims 70% of the global population is at ethnic/tribal levels--where does he get that data from? He also suggests "most college professors" can't take integral or 'genuinely systemic views" of our global challenges. I challenge him on that conclusion; sounds like he's just pulling that out from under his hat.
A lot of research. His work isn’t pulled out of a hat. Try reading it and you’ll see. Ethnocentric is definitely the majority. What level do you think patriotism reflects? How many people think that’s a good, even vital thing?
@@jerrycardinale2827 Thanks brother. Always good to be reminded that each day every day our task is to love God. Although I don't think I was being judgemental, more just visually distracted.
I used to think that too. But most them were not grow up, either. So we needed the development, that science have provided. Now we can stop, our inner and outer struggle. I hope 🙏
I find Ken interesting, but the amount of time he spends answering that first question without letting the others speak seems to show a lack of self-awareness and social smarts.
Everybody is a work in progress. He’s not perfect. Who is, not me. He’s a genius though. I think we see what we look for, and I see what I appreciate here rather than what I might criticise.
Wrong! I’m 35 years old and Ken has put a lot of things together for me and supremely inspired me! This comment is just not helpful at all... awesome that you’ve moved on, but we are learning here.
Ken, how can you leave out the sun's impact on the earth climate. Green technology could be a solution maybe for a limited population of one billion people on this planet, but not for seven billions. It would be definitely the worst environmental distruction ever caused by humanity. If we talk climate we need to discuss it from a Universal-centric point of view. Global-centric solutions are still 1. tier based products and do not provide a holistic cure for the problems we face or create.
His analysis of why the world hasn't dealt with climate change (around the 20 minute mark) is so laughably wrong that I find myself wondering about everything else he's saying.
too much critical thinking, Denian. Simply accept his superiority as an a priori, and only reason from that premise. Wonder not, simply conform. There's no way you can have an insight that he hasn't already had and/or accounted for in his model. He accepts no criticism (in practice).
@@Robb3348 The idea that 'ethnocentric' populations are of a lower order of development than us, the western inheritors of the enlightenment is just about the most obnoxious and un-enlightened statement i've ever heard. It's the children of the enlightenment who use up the bulk of the world's resources and spew out pollution and despoil the 'ethnocentric' areas with outsourced industry and outsourced cheap food production to feed their(our) insatiable appetites. Not to mention the fact that those 'ethnocentric' peoples come from and belong to real places, as opposed to the elitist and airy-fairy idea of being a 'world citizen' who somehow exists on a higher plane than those who are tied culturally and emotionally to the place of their origin.
@@DenianArcoleo I agree with your sentiments and statements completely. I'm a musician, too, that must be the reason we are both enlightened, er I mean, integral! Coral? ;)
@@DenianArcoleo late to the party, but do you realise yet that he was actually referring to ‘us’, and not making some third world insult? What level of development do you think patriotism sits at, if not ethnocentric? You were confusing a racial interpretation with what he actually means. In developmental psychology, ‘ethnocentric’ means a stage of development. 1. Egocentric (I care about me) 2. Ethnocentric (I care about me and mine, everyone else can go to hell) 3. Worldcentric (I care about everyone) It has nothing to do with western assumption of superiority; in fact we are as steeped in it as ever, probably worse now because of the effects of social media algorithms and the resulting echo chambers. He didn’t make it up. That’s the work of developmental psychologists; measured and described in a number of matrices but these are as described by such as Kohlberg, Gilligan, and found in deeper and wider versions such as Spiral Dynamics and of course embedded in Ken’s own Integral Theory. You guys were funny about all the guru stuff, but the outrage about ethnocentricism is misplaced, you didn’t understand the meaning, that’s all, it’s obvious, and your derision was undeserved, and a bit embarrassing to read as a result.
What is happening is the Fourth Turning and some black swan which will make everyone pre-2020 irrelevant, including Ken Wilber, no offense but that's it
There is no climate crisis. The "world" today is healthier and wealthier than its ever been. There are deeper issues and thank god for people like KW to help interpret them.
Matt Spinto Smith c02 does not control climate. Bad forest management, droughts, and natural climate cycles can lead to a worse than average fires that Australia experiences on a yearly basis. Some worse, some not. 1939 was worse and c02 was below 300ppm. What there is, is an appeal to emotion, which is not science.
Destruction is not new so climate change doesn't exist. William the Conqueror never invaded Britain because Julius Caesar had already been there. The telephone was never invented because people used to write letters.
Electrono9 So the vast majority of scientists who agree that climate change is real are doing what? Purposely and collectively lying or just being incompetent? All the data, reports and analysis are wrong somehow because a group of people on the internet have decided they know better and it’s all a big conspiracy. Is the earth also flat? The human race is screwed because people lack critical thinking skills.
Sure they do. Every baby is born egocentric. Most these days get to ethnocentric. Maybe we just don’t live long enough for most folk to learn to care about all of us.
That girl should take that ridiculous pin out of her lip. It affects her speech and makes her sound like she has a lisp. Plus it looks ugly. If you don't like these opinions I have others - just ask. Have a nice day.
Growing up: Egoic development, Individuation, self development, career development. 1st half of life.
Waking Up: Healing the ego/shadow, integrating one's ego with one's Soul. Becoming one's Soul. Recognizing and realizing one's Soul is part of Spirit. Non dual: recognizing that one is a manifestation of Spirit itself.
Very wise words indeed
So true and even more obvious and relevant three years later. Ken’s work mapped this years ago. Reading his books installed the map behind my eyelids and I’m always questioning where I’m operating at. It’s messy. The thing is, how do -or is it ethical to even consider doing- accelerate the growth to world centric? Or how else do we stop ourselves destroying everything while we are still growing up?
LOADED WITH WISDOM. The video has key words on screen to look for more details. First half is explaination and history and last part has the answer to the question. Thank you.
Ken Wilber is such a forward thinker. We need less materialistic philosophers, there are too many of them, and so very few who include consciousness. He has an amazing mind and has brought so much to humanity.... The only thing I could say is that he is so complicated and complex.... but very grateful for all his work, so helpful to understand reality from a deep perspective.
Consciousness can definitely enter a materialistic frame.
@@meneither3834 Amber/orange perspective
@@IAn0nI I don't get what you mean.
In spite of appearances:
"All is well and everything is unfolding as it should." Robert Adams
I'm a Bahai, as I listen to Ken I wonder if the Bahai faith is the closest we can get to an Integral Faith
I would say Bahai most definitely is Integral.It's world centeric not ethnocentric , it's non national, non racism.
best faith is NO faith. faith is always a thought construct, and that blankets how things really are.
I think a big reason that real progress isn't being made has very much to do with economics. This branch of philosophy has become far more important, artificially, than is useful. I say that economics is the number one problem that holds humanity back. Economics is the major problem. It becomes more and more complex and burdensome the more it is applied to human affairs, with exponential human suffering to mark its failings, just to keep an outdated idea alive.
But why do we have such an economic system?
Economics is a big factor in shaping our societies, for sure! But that's the external reflection of our collective internal development? Both influence each other.
I think we need to find ways to both change our infrastructure and state of consciousness. Work from both sides best as we can.
Tier 2 economic system wouldn't have the byproduct of so much suffering.. But what will that look like? o.O
Hey, you guys seem to have put put the videos in reverse order when creating the Playlist for this chat. This video, which is labeled "Part 1" and is the beginning of the conversation is in the 9th slot and the last video (end of the talk) is in the first position in the Playlist.
Also, would be much appreciated if you guys could continue to upload the entire chat as one long file rather than segmenting and placing into a Playlist. Perhaps just do both?
If you superficially read Baha;i writings, it sounds like the other religions of the Book. But if you read carefully, you find "the universe in folded within you" , you find the great nest of being, you find personal growth in development of the virtues, you find all 4 quadrants (individual and cultural development, as well as instruction to study the sciences and arts. Plus He (the founder Baha'u'llah) wrote for different Levels because He said that people and countries are at different stages of growth and development, so he includes guidance for each level. I personally started at one level and as I studied people like Ken Wilber and psychology and science etc, and as my experiences started to cause me to question things, I found more and more in the writings that spoke to each of the stages and states I went through. It is both world centric and transcendent as well as redefining terms like God (unknowable essence) soul and spirit. It encourages questioning and researching, and is guidance for individual, community, governance (grass roots, decentralized, and fluid in many ways to accommodate growth and development of humankind) I can go on and on, but my point is maybe Ken Wilber has not really studied Baha'i enough to say no wisdom tradition on the planet is integral. I have been a Baha'i for 50 years, but I have changed worldviews many times. It is not the absolute only truth, He says it is relative, but it is a very impressive integral system.
You Ken.
What have you done to make it better
Thank you!
Slavery is now debt and wage slavery. Banks create the common currency simply by bookkeeping entry and define these numbers as interest bearing debts. Listen to talks by Richard Werner, Bernard Litaer, Ben Dyson for details on this. Ive never heard eggheads Ken Wilber or Jordan Peterson even mutter a word about this hidden gaming of the economy yet among those who study this it is well known. Theres a reason for this colluding silence though because apparently academia punishes people who speak out about it. Nonetheless both Wilber and Peterson are weak on economics even though this economic worldview more than any other is the problem with todays world.
I agree that the insanely corrupt banking system is at the root of most of the world's problems. Interestingly, I had my first insight into this at the age of 20 when I had a "wakening" experience. (Wilbur talks about waking up as opposed to growing up.) Years later I learned that my initial glimmer was a real thing, and I still have a hard time understanding why there isn't more of a public outcry. It seems to be some kind of Emperor and his new clothes phenomenon. But back to Wilbur: I think it would be better to simply ask him about it rather than to call him an "egghead." We need to work together and insults are destructive.
I agree with what you said; Debt is a form of slavery. However, if people use debt(borrowed money) correctly they can Grow their wealth, their business etc. When people borrow money for irresponsible reasons such as greed rather than growth it traps them into becoming an engendered servant to banks. People need to Wake up and Grow up (Wilber) and take responsibility(Peterson) for their gluttonous actions and not be deceived into a gluttonous material quest for more and more. ( I do understand hardships happen and people end up indedt for others reasons)
Dr Peterson talks about the world being a scary place with lots of malevolent forces within us and outside of us. People can protect themselves by recognizing their internal demons (greed) and recognizing outside dangerous (banks/excessive consurmism, etc) that want to exploit us. So, first thing first, "Wake up" and "Clean your room"! Get educated and make good choices!
@@clowdzfrumubuv9354 ... why is there no public outcry about the corrupt RED #3 Hylic Hegemonic retards banking system? ...
Because 85% of them in the West are RED #3 Hylic retards themselves ... scrabbling around somewhere in THAT "other world" RED #3 snakes and ladders game "hierarchy" ... trying to better their monetary position and etc ...
... while the rest of the 15% us ... try to keep everything else in check ... attending to the whole and etc ...
... yet with 85% bearing down on the 15% ... everything is sinking, sinking!
@@clowdzfrumubuv9354 I agree that name calling is not helpful, in this case though calling him an egghead is saying he is very intelligent,
@@lisajarvie9650 I Agree that individuals might seem to prosper within this system, thats abundantly evident, but at what ultimate cost? For example if a person sets out to buy 1 house for $200,000, but over the course of the Interest Bearing Loan has to pay for two houses = $400,000, where does the Energy and Re-sources to earn that extra $200,000 come from? Its comes ultimately from the Earth itself as everything does. So in this one example I'm saying this system is Taxing the Earth to make Financiers Wealthy and Powerful.
The integral model is fun to play with but in the broad generalizations he makes he doesn't reference any recent scholarship (unless there isn't any) so I'm hesitant to accept his thought as scientific as opposed to speculation.
Yes but these 60 or 70 percent of people that are in lower developmental stages are because culture or society values reinforce them not to develop and I see clearly an inflexion point before and after the 70s and 80s. Before the 80s TV programs where full of interview with philosophers talking about existential topics, music was more profound and poetic. So there is a deliberate shifting point towards a more animalistic nature in meanstream culture and I would say that the conservative revolution of the 80s was the responsable of it. In other words you need to educate people in questions like global warming, cience or philosophy and not getting rich offering them w sensacionalist programs that are adictive. In other words, our society reinforce more sociopatic values ( people who are in stage1) for some reason, maybe to increase economic growth which is the main western obsesion.
Culture and society has always reinforced the current or previous stage that the majority of the population is at. Conscious evolution doesn't happen by mindlessly following your cultural programming. Most people tend to follow the herd and don't evolve much through life once they reach adult age. As humanity evolves through time, then people evolve too, in general, each new generation has the potential to evolve to a higher level than the previous one. With independent thinking it's possible to reach 2nd tier in one lifetime. Each level takes about 7 - 10 years give or take. I don't know why most people get stuck somewhere and stop growing. I think perhaps modern technologies like the invention of TV and now the internet and the power of big tech, and social media, we have been intentionally psychologically programmed to stay asleep so we can be more easily manipulated to be slaves and consumers.
I may be wrong, but I think right now, the power structures, those in control of this planet are operating from the orange level of consciousness. Which is a self focused, money/profit model. Values are individualistic, success is measured in money and material wealth. If you are at orange and have become materially successful, there is little motivation to question any of your values and move towards green. Each level has its light and dark side. Wokeism and extreme leftism are the dark side of green. We are all equal and should be treated the same and be included, unless you have a different opinion, and then you are cancelled. The shadow side of green.
What is that string thing on one of the fingers on Ken Wilber's right hand. Is that to remind him of something?
Thanks a lot.
I really wished that he would give a few more pointers..As someone who cares deeply about our planet's future, I just get into a despair sometimes, and now I see how much bigger the struggle is. I guess we are in this for the long run?
I suspect that he would say that we are all integrally joined to all existence so change starts from within. Discovering our own wholeness influences everything positively.
Lots of thinking and verbalizing by KW. Lots. And this has resulted in what exactly? What is the progress made or the problems solved?
Maybe next video I'll wear earbuds and plant a tree🌳. At least then I will be sure the time is well spent.
The New Testament terminology equivalent to 'awakening' is 'metanoia' (transformation of one's mind), usually translated as 'repentance'. Unfortunately, the understanding of 'repentance' is usually limited only to 'being remorseful of one's sins,' or at most, turning from evil and turning to good.
I would suggest sanctification rather than repentance
as long as you see evil and good , you dont get it, thats already very subjective.
I know this might sound disrespectful, but playback speed 0.75 = Master Yoda, preach !
and 0.5 speed sounds like a drunk Yoda
Came through the comments looking for the Yoda reference, you did not disappoint me.
Did they expect a 20 minute response ;)
? I dont see. Please help me understand ur view my friend
Hey I know this guy, :)
After 5 minutes I forgot what the question was.
Are there any books by KW that specifically focuses on T2? Global climate change: Wonder why KW didn't specifically mention China and India...the countries with the largest impact on global climate? Paris climate agreement and similar agreements, are useless until the most important signers are at higher developmental stages....imo.
Imo, carbon emissions should be measured per capita and not per country or region. Per region, the US or the EU are obviously big polluters, whereas f.ex. Minnesota or Norway are not. In fact, many people in Norway (where I come from) use this argument, that Norway is such a small country, so it doesn't matter what Norway do with its carbon emissions and therefore we shouldn't care. For obvious reasons this logically broken way of thinking could be dangerous. That said, China's emissions per capita are already higher than in many western countries and not at all sustainable, whereas India has still some way to go to be on par with western countries.
Why think that Waking Up is not just another Line of Development? All the conceptual Lines of Development, are Knowns, 'Skills', Epistemes, collected, accumulated and/or systematized/synthetised Phenomenological Experiences, sometimes (or often, or eventually) maybe even developing into special *Perspectives* ; those processes which interact with each other in the Subjectivity(ies) of the Self(ves), contributing to continual formation of the Self(ves).
When you dispose of different Perspectives to 'tackle' a particular situation, reality or problem, it works mostly as if you can SHIFT from a Conscious State to another - when you are able to shift Perspectives; and sometimes you are 'forced' into a shift of Perspective, like when we are going through a completely new and personally *(re)signifying* Experience (e.g., some of the astronauts' experiential stories about the planet Earth, when they first seen it from orbit). When you 'put the glasses on' (like in the movie _We Live_ analysed through that Critique of Ideology, Zizek's famous extract video), the glasses which represents a Perspective of Critique of Ideology, is much like as if you enter into a skilled or technical (anyways, phenomenological) State of Consciousness just as if you started some momentaneous practice of Mindfulness meditation; it's, essentially, the same 'substance'; the same 'shit'; even though, of course, each 'Perspective' or 'Conscious State', or 'running Episteme', on that complex situation, has its own 'potentials'. So, it seems likely there is no need to treat 'Waking Up' as a special thing; it's as much relevant than ANY other potentially identifiable (conceptually) Line of Development; it's all bodily *Corporeal* stuff: *Corporeality* (trying to go beyond mere Phenomenological/Mind/Conscious limitating concepts).
Good Point.
From what I gleaned from this, your Asking a “Why Wake Up” Question? and Why is one Potential greater than any other Potential? Why is one Prioritized over Another? Eg Why Awaken when you could Grow in the Vectors of Emotional or Rational or Moral or Sexual Development etc
This seems to be a Self-Actualisation Question.
Waking Up vs Growing Up
The Growing up Lines of Development are Independent from the Awakening Line.
Ie we know this Because you can have an Enlightened Slave Owner.
High in Awakening but lower in Morality.
So they are definitively separate but they’re not Prioritized.
As you said, it’s unclear to me whether one should Prioritize one Potential Vector of Growth over another.
I can only think of if your Low in one of the potentials then obviously you could Prioritise it For Clear Reasons! Eg If I’m High in Awakening but low in Moral Development you could boost Morals because it’s lagging behind.
But in the Self-Actualization process it’s not obvious whether you should grow in a delineated fashion one Potential more and over another Potential rather than grow them side by side simultaneously.
Again, you would be doing this For Reasons.
Ie I want to become a Well-rounded Complete Human Being vs I want to become a World class Chess Player.
So I think it comes down to...
[*] - Wide Potential vs Deep Potential.
And Consiousness: - it’s better to be Consious of All of One Potentials because then it at least gives you Choice & Flexibility in the Matter.
@@StandardProceduree Yes, that crossed, dual, general approach: Wide|Deep Potential, for my personal experience, seems more integrative than some propositions in integral meta-theory. So, what seems to me is that Integral Meta-Theory, in its 'map of the self,' has eventually made certain bold distinctions (e.g., Waking Up × Growing Up; but I still find adequate, even though limited and somehow shadowing: States × Stages - I'll present this issue later) which created a likely misleading, rigid-like idea about HOW are actually Diverse, Complex and Inter-Mixed, the human being with his/her self. I mean, one can Wake Up & Grow Up by 'just' having a deep loving relationship with someone, developing new understanding & feel about existence, oneself, otherselves, nature, the world and the cosmo, etc.
⋄
"States of Consciousness" do not exist outside of "Stages of Development" and vice-versa. Whenever one is in a state (more likely: in a mix of states at a time, but where perhaps one or another state is predominant), he/she is also in a stage (or more likely again: in a mix of stages simultaneously, but with one or another stage being more active/predominant; just like those scans of the brain/body). So one cannot even ACCESS States without Stages or vice-versa; which would mean, therefore, that all the "Ups" goals are just a completly arbitrary set of reduccionistic Lines of Development. Its setup lacks the Transdisciplinary approach, because it 'packs down' all human activities inside that Growing Up box, thinking that the remaining Ups are so different and so special - worse: that one can really separate those things meta-theoretically. On the contrary, a good Meta-Theory would exist to show us that we still know nothing - or very, very little.
Captain Subversive Corsair
Yeah True.
It all comes down to How we make Distinctions. And How we Understand Things.
Integral has made the 10 or so Key Distnictions. But the HOW and the WHY, the Wisdom & the Understanding is yet to be made.
I Agree with your point Metaphysically regarding States being Inseparable from Stages, and that States have their basis in Stages and vice verse Etc
Yet I don’t agree Phenomenologically because Humans can be at the Same Stage and be at vastly different States. Ie The Same World-View but not Same Consiousness. So while both are related contained together, it’s still a Powerful distinction to make as to WHY they are at a vastly different States of Consiousness.
~ Why are their 15yr Old enlightened Sages, with the Same Stage Development as those his age?
His State Experiance doesn’t seem to correspond or Collerate to his Stage At all? Despite the fact that States & Stages Must be linked by virtue of the State vs Structures Distniction - ‘That every Structure has a corresponding state, and every state a corresponding structure.’
So I agree the meta-model is limited but is making Powerful Observations about Reality despite its lack of Explanatory Power into WHY and HOW it works.
This Meta-Theoretical scaffold building is great for its Useabability & Practical Value but not if people begin to build on it as if All of it is metaphysically true.
Ultimately it makes a Series of Powerful Distictions; but has limited Explanatory Power. It has Insights into WHAT is going on, but not WHY or HOW it’s going on.
And as you say, even the WHAT is up for debate as it’s not clear why Priority is given to Those UP Goals, or even if so, If they can even be said to be Distinct from each other at all.
Don’t suppose you’ve seen Ken’s program Superhuman OS? And what your thoughts are on It, or about The Best Operating System one can have for your Mind? Would love to here what you think
@@StandardProceduree The problem deriving from the concept of the Stages, leads, also, directly to the question of: "¿But the Stage of 'WHAT' thing?". There comes, perhaps, the concept of the Lines of Development to try and tackle this ('HORIZONTAL-axis' or "Wide Potential" as you have put) differentiating problem -and, immediatly, we tend to turn into dangerous, somehow arbitrary, Multidisciplinary (as in the Conventional School Education systems that develops over-verticalized, separated Subjects) Approach.
Phenomenologically, what I would propose is that, in the exemple of the 15 years old enlightened sages, what we have in him or maybe in her is that 'in a certain' Dimension (or in a particular set of Dimensions), from the Multi-Dimensionality of Human Society/Experience/Existence/Activities, this kid has developed 'higher Stages' (of some 'skill', like for example in this case, certain Meditative practices or even praxises) which provided him with NEW possibilities of States of Consciousness OR the possibility of development an essential State already present but on a 'higher Stage' of such State -if we could scientifically track somehow the changes/developments of States in relationship to the changes/developments of Stages).
Now, for the case of people having the same World-View (a ¿Stage?) but not the same Consciousness (a ¿State?), I think this brings a problematic which would be: ¿What would we mean by a particular World-View? (I mean, if it means the holarchy model of the "-Centrics", like Egocentric/Ethnocentric/Worldcentric/Planetocentric/Kosmocentric, it is ok but I see HUGE epistemic problems, because it is rather impossible for a Human Being to develop true, Empathetic Agency towards so many, so large, so complex and diversified Realities; it's like the "Distinctions": at some point it's necessary to define what we are going to Do; and most likely or inevitable, this requires to become Exclusive; even though it is plausible that higher Sates of Consciousness suggest, on the contrary, that we become more and more Inclusive (but this Inclusiveness sometimes turns down to be more an idealistic thing than a practical thing; and so far I haven't seen an Interdisciplary Approach in Integral Meta-Theory with the Wits to bridge up such kind of structured Gaps.
On the other hand, in the crossing of some fields, like Education & Epistemology, many academics and educators have been working on the concept of "Competences" (could be seen, alegorically and not without problems, as "Skills" in the ludic universe of RPG games); Even though I'm skeptical and critical of any model, I appretiate the Competence model in the sense that it attempts to (but maybe by some accidental convergence of ideais of our times) breakdown some aspects of Stages/States; I guess it is developed from previous epistemological investigation and subdivision of 'Knowns' (Know-Know [Knowledge], Know-How [Ability], Know-How-To-Be [Attitude]; and perhaps more). In my personal investigation, the approach of States & Stages, perhaps not so to Map in general terms, but especially in order to 'TRACK' the development processes, as well as the current contextes, of the Selves, might actually require deeper reconsiderations.
⋄
I'm sorry I can't answer the whole of your post yet. But I will soon. (I'm very interested in the relationships between Culture and Technology, so it will be a good investigation for me the OS issue).
@@StandardProceduree I'm back; My last post was a bit chaotic; There was already some time I didn't jump into Integral (Meta-)Theory investigations, and this conversation helped me generate many new notions; so thank you for your engagement.
So, indeed I wasn't aware of the references in your latest paragraph; I could find some more valuable information but especially on 'Superhuman OS'. I need to recontextualize the whole subject, though, so let me put it this way first, as I see it now:
Integral (Meta-)Theory (especially in its theoretical form) is actually 'Interdisciplinary Philosophy'; it was developed precisely with a methodology to bridge the gaps/abysses/contradictions between Disciplinas (or 'schools') such as Psychology, Philosophy, Phenomenology, Theology, Religion, Anthropology, Culture. Of course there was a lot of Transdisciplinary Approach in its Research and Experience of the researcher. As a set of model and ideas, it doesn't necessarly translate into a Transdisciplinary Approach, and this is why it cannot effectively bridge the fundamental gaps to include Transdisciplinary: Methodology, (Re)Education, and (I'd even go somehow radical and bold): Arts. So, I think a discussion of what it is or should be (Theory, Meta-Theory, Interdisciplinary Philosophy, Social/Cultural Movement [the 'Integral' panaceia], etc.), although interesting and not unimportant, is accessory once this is mapped out to this point.
Now, for the 'Superhuman OS', in the Context of our 'Global' Society nowadays, the way I see may sound a bit excessively critical and 'hard-talk' (but I have grave reasons for thinking this way today, because I myself have been, I guess just like you and many other people around the world, in a legitimate "Quest" for 'Integration', even before learning about Integral (Meta-)Theory). So, the first thingS which struck me is that deliberated notion that only a few must be, let's say, 'Reeducated' in an 'Integral Way', because there is, historically, that interpretation that there is only need of a few % of people on a higher 'Stage' of Consciousness development, in order to generate Transformations & Revolutions in Society. I'm quite skeptical today if (¿we all should know about this critical idea, right?) taking History events/motifs as a rule of thumb to predict the future is a good idea (but it can be a smart move though); Since I'm adept to 'Open Source Philosophy' in regard not only to Software, I see no integrative-inclusive matter in not having approachs such as Open Source Integral dispositives for example. But I have nothing against Business; and I'm not saying it is 'Bad Business'; it sounds noble and plausible effective (¿maybe on the long-term? Who knows.); I just wonder if the relatively few people that will benefit from it, will actually be able to 'Share' their new Powers/Wisdoms in some Revolutionary/Integral fashion, or if they'll just keep it using their 'Better Selves' mainly in benefit of their, let's say, more 'Archaic' aspects of their lives and their social circles. I know this is VERY complex… I see the proper cultivations of Community as KEY, but at the same time, we have huge difficulties (especially because of our Individualistic Culture) in developing Community. There is a profound lack of Interdisciplinarity & Transdisciplinarity in Community Development; and for me, High-Level Consciousness is able to bridge such gaps Socially, _even_ in Business. I'm not quite sure "Self-Development" strategies are going into this way (not trying to say they are not fundamental too: we've got our own _Timo_ [used in the word Timocracy] to take care of): because the name of the Individualistic-Phenomenological Bait, from the start, is: "DEVELOP YOUR SELF", and not something like "DEVELOP OURSELVES / OUR COMMUNITY / LET'S GROW TOGETHER". So, maybe one interesting question would be: ¿Is it possible to plan properly, starting with 'Subversive Desire'? That is, like a Trojan Horse for Community development starting from the Individual (Self-Development) expanding and including to (Community-Development). I doubt because precisely is the Inter-Subjectivity (or the development of Subjetive Plural quadrant) that should not lag behind Intra-Subjectivity, and other more individualistic Development/Resources/stuff/etc.; Also, because Inter-Subjectivity can't grow WITH Inter-Subjectivity work (¿and WHERE do we 'find' this 'school' nowadays? It's like the said: "We learn to Draw, Drawing." [and of course, by Studying Drawing]; so how do we… 'Study/Develop Community' (i.e., Developing the Interconnected Selves in realtime: in Dynamic Motion in a Concrete Context/Environment); this I sense as a urgent hot topic for the past, present and future of Humanity).
Finally, I mut say I don't really know much about all the branches of Integral 'movement', and perhaps I'm being quite wrong about the way I'm pointing my thoughts towards it. Nonelethless, I do believe these reflections are not irrelevant; maybe applyable in other Contextes.
Perhaps you've got more contributions to all or some of these ideas?
Hey Ken... what do you think the weather will be like tomorrow? K: In Integral Theory we postulate that....
Aswell, to Ken, how practically can we stop and manage the climate crisis? What do you think how much time have we left?
@Ozren S ... 2y ago ....yups ... all the Ken Wilber mob do ... is postulate ...
Yet ... Ken Wilber, many many years ago ... at SAND Conference ... said
"Here is the AQAL and I need you people to install it"
... and such is met with blank stares ... and off into postulation they all go ...
YET ... the AQAL is and must go into every nation ... "devoid of RED #3" ...
So ... the "Big Stick!" ... is now being pointed at every male apex bloodline leader ...
(get it in and "get moving")
(cattle "move em on UP" your ppl)
We have to run with it ... the AQAL ... as it is "common heritage" ... hae = blood ... to all mankind ...
damn whats that song at the end
The idea that we’re becoming something better is a recipe for never finding peace now
"Quantum Questions" is a really good book!
Cool dude, kinda sounds like Yoda. Makes it even cooler.
No idea you have.
Sorry. I tried to follow but couldn’t accept his position re global warming. Also, how does he measure growing up. Are the stages of growth objective ?
When he says Growing Up, he refers to the levels of complexity of consciousness. There are many different models of levels of growth covering many different facets, from individuals (values, morals, cognitive intelligence, spiritual intelligence, social intelligence, self sense, etcetera) to collectives (technology, etcetera). You'd be best reading Ken's work for a thorough explanation.
His basic point is that because people centred at Amber - 70% of the world population - cannot even comprehend global (or indeed, universal) phenomena, global warming is simply not a concern for them and it can't be - it's not possible. Therefore, of course, they won't be able to solve it! Only when you get to Orange does "global" (and universal)even make sense to you. ~
Another point I'll add is that the stage above Orange, Green, as Ken has said on several occasions, really takes the environment and the planet seriously, not to mention marginalisation, hierarchies, and so forth. Green is a matured worldcentrism.
Someone tell me a useful model to study
@ Levi B-M ... the model to study is
* AQAL devoid of RED #3 evil ...
* as #10+ ppls lenses present it ...
Integral theory.
I need " Religion of tomorrow " in german language . Terry Patton ' s book is translated here . Germany need ' s All books from Ken , i think . " Integrale Meditations " was the last translated Ken - Wilber - book here . I love Ken . He is HOPE .
Some coaches in the world and late with their facts,l this had already been figured out by the early Egyptians.
Wow, such a great mind doesn't know about the psychopathic matrix that has been holding humanity hostage for millennia.
I have listened to about three of his “speeches” - I mean, get to the point of what the question asked. So more questions can be asked and discussed. He could have summed this up in 5 mins.
You should sum it up in five seconds.
Good example of mass ethnocentricism can be found in the phenomenon of Brexit. He who has eyes to see......
More like mass interference by FSB.
“70% of humans are at ethnocentric or lower.”
How does he know that?
@@jupiterinaries6150 ... How does Ken Wilber know that 70+% humanity is at level #4 ethnocentric and #3 "lower"? ... from the URQ behaviour ... and from the ULQ Mind thinking ... this is how lower level people "identify" themselves at whichever levels, so you can gauge the human population size of that level ...
@@sandygibbon2761 how recent is his research that supposedly has measured those percentages in behavior?
@@jupiterinaries6150 Ken Wilber and thousands of followers ... have not really checked people off ... AQAL levels tested them scientifically ... some have as per the vertical "Lines" in AQAL ... you can see their sciences adder in to the mapping ...
But this is not "broad scale" whole population/s ... that "other" people are doing now, eg China, etc ...
For Ken Wilber mob ... it's more of ... which peoples at what AQAL level build ... are higher or lower than me ... are ... at a previous or post evolutionary construction build to me ...
I start with AQAL "Piaget" levels ... per age ... infants = 1 reflex driven ... little children = 2 impulse driven ... primary school kids are 4, rule role conformity, then 5, rational scientific
So they are all Tier 1 levels aka Worldview Structures ...
Tier 1 belongs to children ...
And THAT is where gdp-HDI ... human development ... STOPS ... for 99% of "adults" on planet ...
99% Adults are not keeping on with the growing up ...
So ... my maths comes out similar to Ken Wilber mob stats ...
99% Adults are retarded for age ...
So, then you have to switch across to say Maslow's pyramid levels ... and see what's higher than Piagets max out at level 5 ... and who is achieving them the higher 7, 8, etc levels ... (that I myself have come through and checked off as LDE = laid down and enduring) ...
... and you see that 99% of adults have NOT ...
I trust Ken Wilber on anything to do with psychology, enlightenment study, but there is something that is not clear at all, it is climate study...not clear at all
He uses way too many words. The whole world is a Complaint Addict & all other problems stem from that. 🙏
Bah'ai does look into it.
You cant say or you will be banned
Does Ken Wilber have direct experience with waking up/enlightenment/satori? Or does he just have crazy high IQ?
Both.
Both. Authentic, and intellectual. He has a video from his misspent youth 😊, hooked up to a brain monitor and consciously changing his own brain wave states through meditation.
Visionary.
Have any other cultures gone through the enlightenment stage of growing up apart from Europeans?
No. Its the Europens who hoisted the flag of Modren Enlightenment. Dillema is...now Europen Enlightenment has culminated into ruthless Capitalism which is buldozing ethical aspect of humanity. Stay blessed.
@@azlanameer4912 And they are the first culture to start moving into green.
in the past those who reach enlightenment were eradicated for not wanting to shed blood on earth.
The West has not grown up ... the vast majority of them ... are evil selfish RED #3 covert ... "playing up" in Green #6 pluralism ...
Dear Ken, You have a wonderful grasp of so much information! Very informative. However, in my mind, you are unrealistically pessimistic. So many good things are happening in the world. If you were trained in more recent psychology, I believe you would see more clearly how much we are developing as a race. Young people, are so much more mature in their thinking because psychological, including moral truths, are being learned everywhere! And how can you be awakened without maturing? Becoming awake means opening up to your own suffering and that of others. I am not young myself, and I know how tempting it is to become cynical as we get older--a tendency we all have to look at closely if we are going about teaching others.
I wonder if you still have the same opinion a year later, after 2020 and even worse the beginning of 2021. Seems to me that Ken's predictions from 10 years ago have materialized now. Until we have a majority of leaders on this planet at tier 2, I don't have much hope for humanity.
@@Jen.K and? isnt humanity just a speck of dust in the universe, nothing gets lost if it wipes itself out !!
Ken wilber is attempting to become active in the int dark web... Hopw to see his debates with jb or sam soon... Damn thatll be good
God i wish they would get this moving. Sod the zizek peterson debate this would be better
Time to dust off the more Mahayanist perspectives, rather than the pseudo-Theosophy?
Do you understand why animals don't talk.... The just get shit done
My cat sleeps all day long.
Whiggish idea of history but in more exotic lingo
Huh?! At the end of the video: "It's a genuine issue." That's it? Ken seems pretty blasé at the end. The consequences of his conclusion would be catastrophic on a global level. He claims 70% of the global population is at ethnic/tribal levels--where does he get that data from? He also suggests "most college professors" can't take integral or 'genuinely systemic views" of our global challenges. I challenge him on that conclusion; sounds like he's just pulling that out from under his hat.
Could be. But how much of his work have you read? Perhaps you should check out his collected works !
Unless you have already ofc. haha
A lot of research. His work isn’t pulled out of a hat. Try reading it and you’ll see.
Ethnocentric is definitely the majority.
What level do you think patriotism reflects? How many people think that’s a good, even vital thing?
....and people actually give Wilber serious listening/reading time?
I just spent 4 seconds trying to rub that chick's lip ring off my screen.
do not be judgmental
do not worry about petty things
@@jerrycardinale2827 Thanks brother. Always good to be reminded that each day every day our task is to love God. Although I don't think I was being judgemental, more just visually distracted.
Hi Pax, Dont puss out to self righteous folk. I understand the humor in your comment and Jerry, dont be judgemental and dont worry about petty things.
😂
The Druids, Toaists native Hopi indians all had more purity and power then civilized man
I used to think that too. But most them were not grow up, either. So we needed the development, that science have provided. Now we can stop, our inner and outer struggle. I hope 🙏
The fella on the right needs to learn to close his mouth, he's likely mouth breathing unintentionally most of the time.
I find Ken interesting, but the amount of time he spends answering that first question without letting the others speak seems to show a lack of self-awareness and social smarts.
how dare you criticize the Perfect Teacher, Pundit, and Master? You shall be transcended and excluded.
Actually I think that's the idea. They're are interviewing him and want to hear his opinions in detail
Everybody is a work in progress. He’s not perfect. Who is, not me.
He’s a genius though. I think we see what we look for, and I see what I appreciate here rather than what I might criticise.
Talked for twenty minutes without saying anything. Seems to like the word "model".
No offense but Ken was interesting 25 years ago, now not so much
Wrong! I’m 35 years old and Ken has put a lot of things together for me and supremely inspired me! This comment is just not helpful at all... awesome that you’ve moved on, but we are learning here.
I’ve followed his work since he started publishing. What he says here three years ago us even more relevant today
That people like Ken Wilber are taken seriously.
hes very insightful
Ken, how can you leave out the sun's impact on the earth climate. Green technology could be a solution maybe for a limited population of one billion people on this planet, but not for seven billions. It would be definitely the worst environmental distruction ever caused by humanity.
If we talk climate we need to discuss it from a Universal-centric point of view. Global-centric solutions are still 1. tier based products and do not provide a holistic cure for the problems we face or create.
Frank Visser... Ken doesn't understand Evolution... Adi Da... blah blah KIDDING
All evolutionary perspectives, including Wilber's, will fail. But then, we could go back to Big Mind instead... :-)
His analysis of why the world hasn't dealt with climate change (around the 20 minute mark) is so laughably wrong that I find myself wondering about everything else he's saying.
too much critical thinking, Denian. Simply accept his superiority as an a priori, and only reason from that premise. Wonder not, simply conform. There's no way you can have an insight that he hasn't already had and/or accounted for in his model. He accepts no criticism (in practice).
@@Robb3348 The idea that 'ethnocentric' populations are of a lower order of development than us, the western inheritors of the enlightenment is just about the most obnoxious and un-enlightened statement i've ever heard. It's the children of the enlightenment who use up the bulk of the world's resources and spew out pollution and despoil the 'ethnocentric' areas with outsourced industry and outsourced cheap food production to feed their(our) insatiable appetites. Not to mention the fact that those 'ethnocentric' peoples come from and belong to real places, as opposed to the elitist and airy-fairy idea of being a 'world citizen' who somehow exists on a higher plane than those who are tied culturally and emotionally to the place of their origin.
@@Robb3348 I do note, and appreciate, your satirical obeisance to his superiority over us mere mortals :-)
@@DenianArcoleo I agree with your sentiments and statements completely. I'm a musician, too, that must be the reason we are both enlightened, er I mean, integral! Coral? ;)
@@DenianArcoleo late to the party, but do you realise yet that he was actually referring to ‘us’, and not making some third world insult?
What level of development do you think patriotism sits at, if not ethnocentric?
You were confusing a racial interpretation with what he actually means. In developmental psychology, ‘ethnocentric’ means a stage of development.
1. Egocentric (I care about me)
2. Ethnocentric (I care about me and mine, everyone else can go to hell)
3. Worldcentric (I care about everyone)
It has nothing to do with western assumption of superiority; in fact we are as steeped in it as ever, probably worse now because of the effects of social media algorithms and the resulting echo chambers.
He didn’t make it up. That’s the work of developmental psychologists; measured and described in a number of matrices but these are as described by such as Kohlberg, Gilligan, and found in deeper and wider versions such as Spiral Dynamics and of course embedded in Ken’s own Integral Theory.
You guys were funny about all the guru stuff, but the outrage about ethnocentricism is misplaced, you didn’t understand the meaning, that’s all, it’s obvious, and your derision was undeserved, and a bit embarrassing to read as a result.
What is happening is the Fourth Turning and some black swan which will make everyone pre-2020 irrelevant, including Ken Wilber, no offense but that's it
Including YOU, I assume.
thank god we have you to enlighten us
HELP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Solutions to problems dont change in two days, then how will answers?
Its his hypothesis,the resultant of his lifes work, wtf do you want, for him yo come up with radical new theories every interview
There is no climate crisis. The "world" today is healthier and wealthier than its ever been. There are deeper issues and thank god for people like KW to help interpret them.
I hope you never bump into any Australians who have lost their homes.
Matt Spinto Smith c02 does not control climate. Bad forest management, droughts, and natural climate cycles can lead to a worse than average fires that Australia experiences on a yearly basis. Some worse, some not. 1939 was worse and c02 was below 300ppm. What there is, is an appeal to emotion, which is not science.
Enjoy your parallel universe.
Destruction is not new so climate change doesn't exist. William the Conqueror never invaded Britain because Julius Caesar had already been there. The telephone was never invented because people used to write letters.
Electrono9 So the vast majority of scientists who agree that climate change is real are doing what? Purposely and collectively lying or just being incompetent? All the data, reports and analysis are wrong somehow because a group of people on the internet have decided they know better and it’s all a big conspiracy. Is the earth also flat? The human race is screwed because people lack critical thinking skills.
Not all humans go through those stages unless you believe in reincarnation.
Sure they do. Every baby is born egocentric. Most these days get to ethnocentric. Maybe we just don’t live long enough for most folk to learn to care about all of us.
Irrelevant.
That girl should take that ridiculous pin out of her lip. It affects her speech and makes her sound like she has a lisp. Plus it looks ugly. If you don't like these opinions I have others - just ask. Have a nice day.
he is wrong about climate change...disappointed that this intellectual is failing to understand the REAL REAL reality