This was the first session in our relaunched Digital Campfire. We've just added a lot more sessions, upcoming with Heather Heying, Hanzi Freinacht and a special launch party for Jamie Wheal's new book 'Recapture the Rapture'. Also the first edition of the Rebel Wisdom book club starts with Jean Gebser's 'Ever Present Origin' with Jeremy Johnson. We're also starting up a monthly AMA to ask any questions about RW content. Memberships start at $5 per month, and allow us to keep making films like this - check out the upcoming events here: rebelwisdom.co.uk/campfire-events
I don't really care what any particular person BELIEVES. You may believe that there is an old man with a white beard perched in the clouds, that the Ultimate Reality is a young blackish-blue Indian guy, that the universe is eternal, that Mother Mary was a certifiable virgin or that gross physical matter is the foundation of existence. The ONLY thing which really matters is your meta-ethics, not your meta-physics. Do you consider any form of non-monarchical government (such as democracy or socialism) to be beneficial? Do you unnecessarily destroy the lives of poor, innocent animals and gorge on their bloody carcasses? Do you believe homosexuality and transvestism is moral? Do you consider feminist ideology to be righteous? If so, then you are objectively immoral and your so-called "enlightened/awakened" state is immaterial, since it does not benefit society in any way. P. S. Kenny is a full-time CRIMINAL. 😈
The Integral community has declined because they locked everything behind a paywall. Many other authors and movements have made much more available for free.
I learned a hell of a lot from Integral. For example, that the egoic projection of the atmanic qualities onto the samsaric shadow can be a transformative factor in the crystallisation of a new paradigm of self in alignment with the buddhistic symbolism of no-self within the psycho-somatic and ecological realities or skandhas of ordinary life, opening multiple paradigms for assimilation, individuation and ultimate transcendence of the mundane aspects, or post-buddhistic paradigms of the development of gradual or sudden awakening or satori, in the spiritual being, independent of the sway of dualistic phallocratic or even philo-phallocratic narratives co-existing with the core concept of nowness.
Ken Wilber is one of three most important teachers in my adult life, the other two being Jordan Peterson and L. Ron Hubbard. Interpretive frameworks of immediate use over a long span of time and many variables. I feel grateful to him. It's interesting to run up on something that explains phenomena as they roll out, and tempting to to think of it, for a time, as a theory of everything, as Ken did and quite understandably.
A time and a season , that’s what I’ve found. 65 now, . Acts 19 ..... into all truth..... Don’t be , ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth. You guys are great and definitely on the right track . Mike . Australiah
I loved this conversation. I just read the religion of tomorrow by Ken Wilber and found it a great map of explaining reality. Its always a good idea to look at any map though and see its limits.
Ah, great take on Rogan at about 59 minutes in!!! I teach dance at a university and have used Integral Theory to organize my research so I feel like I’ve been waiting for this convo for a long time.
Wonderful conversation! This is a conversation I was very thirsty to hear about, especially with RW’s critical lens. Thank you for inviting these speakers and asking them excellent, pointed questions!
I think what this whole conversation is all about I tried to reach that state of being feeling all the crap we’ve been fed was nonsense at the core and seeing people just obeying without questioning. Working on myself hugely only since few years but continuing following the intuition line from childhood. The most essential things are the most important, if we don’t master them we can’t sustain innovate progress evolve.
I know the Loevinger model of development - which is one of the major models informing Integral - has been used successfully in at least eleven different cultures. This includes a study done in the African country of Mali, which was specifically chosen for its collectivistic values. The basic punchline is that the developmental stages seemed to hold regardless of the level of collectivism. As Harvard's Robert Kegan quips, the people who seem most likely to question the universality of developmental stages are not people from differing cultures, but are instead Western persons who are suspicious of the "cultural colonialism" of the West.
There's a relatively simple way to address the issue of aggression, which comes from the Mahayana Buddhism (Bodhisattvayana) tradition, and it basically states: you can only harm another when that is necessary (and you should be sure) to prevent greater harm.
What a great session. Many thanks for it --- truly a lot of food for deep thought. Always engaging and insightful themes you approach. Continue the great work you do.
I've seen a portion of "Integralists" who seem to have gotten distracted by hyper-partisanship and quasi-wokeness, and I don't think this serves as a good attractor, or a fair expression of what Integral Theory is.
Layman pointed out that the Green-based groups are present in Integral. They often believe they are operating in the Integral Zone, but some aren't. But Integral doesn't reject people's developmental needs. So there won't be any strong distancing.
@@Shin_LonaAgreed. It's not all "Integralists", but a few of them. I think it's irritating to see it in Integral thought, because I believe Integral has exactly what it takes to disarm wokeism, and offer a healthier future, especially culturally.
I was around the Integral community at its peak and participated in Integral Institute meetings at Ken's house in Boulder and also at the loft in Denver after he moved there. This was around 2000. Ken's work is a beautiful attempt to embrace everyone and everything. I've always thought of it as an expression of Eros. I was also hanging out with some Heidegger scholars who were applying his philosophy in a business context. They helped me see that Ken's AQAL model is what they called "Yet Another Descriptive Ontology." In other words, it was a map. Yet there is a lot of reality that is not mappable. In fact, when you try to include these aspects of reality, they actually dereify your maps. This is what I think a lot of postmodernism was trying to grapple with, however, within a structural view. In my own work, I gravitated toward Generative Ontologies which work with what is arising in direct experience, including especially the complex process aspects of experience that aren't mappable. This immediately brings in embodied experience and complex group dynamics. This too is an expression of Eros, however, the embrace is more direct and immediate rather than conceptual. Given this I became less interested in describing development and more interested in working in real-time to generating development. It turns out that you don't need to be able to describe or map development in order to generate it. In fact, I have found that trying to assess development using models of adult development can actually undermine the generation of development, which is actually more complex and non-linear than these models portray. I really enjoyed this conversation and agreed with nearly all of it. However, it seemed to me to be a conversation about the state of integral held mostly inside the framework of integral. This is necessary for sure, but what about viewing the state of integral from other meta-perspectives that are not framed using the language of AQAL? Thank you for all your work to host these conversations.
Great share Steve. I got the distinction of a generative epistemological language via Werner Erhard. Took me decades to get IT as a living phenomena. Always enjoyed Ken Wilbers books. Way over my head but I learned to make meditation a lifestyle because of Ken.
This is a fantastic comment, and I love the distinction between descriptive and generative ontologies. I would love to write a longer reply, but for now I would just like to ask if it might be helpful to distinguish between integral as a reality experienced from a certain developmental vantage point, and integral as a translation of that reality into linguistic signifiers. It seems to me that as long as one doesn't have the opportunity to meet and talk to late-stage individuals, a verbal transcription (or model if you will) of the view from that altitude might be the best hope to achieve the necessary scaffolding required to grow. In a different knowledge ecology, with no podcasts, no Zoom meet-ups, and no internet, making psychoactive textual renderings of late-stage perspectives makes a lot of sense. Maps aren't problematic per se, they are just a way to encode experience in a de-localized carrier. Human interaction is of course much more psychoactive, so now that we are moving into a different knowledge ecology, this would be the direction to move towards for the integral movement, but for anyone who lacks the necessary tools or infrastructure to participate in the new knowledge ecology, then maps, concepts, linguistic signifiers might still be the best way to go. Of course, having a common language, or a conceptual repertoire, which is borne out of integral vantage points is majorly useful, and when it comes to getting these ideas into academia, I would say it is a prerequisite. So then it makes sense to not move away from maps, but to focus even more on map-making, and to expose the integral map to scrutiny by academic communities and modify it as the process moves along.
@@erikljungberg1056 I recall Ken saying he had to have evidence ,proof to be put on the Integral map. In a linguistic generative phenomena the ground of being is nothing. From nothing one generates and brings into being a living abstraction and evidence follows. In other words listening ,speaking into existence transcends the map. Listening is key . I often say my life of health and fitness I owe to Ken and Tony Robbins My life of nothingness I owe to Erhard.
There probably needs to be a club for you guys "Wilbers Lofties" Strange how it was a kind of embarrassment at the time and now...I'm still jealous as hell
At point where you are talking about whether to make the Integral content simpler to make it easier to spread. I am wondering how much impact can come from the person relaying the information truly embodying Integral consciousness and relating in a way to others that strikes them that this is something different, that this is something they want to aspire to. I would love to see this take on more via transmission, if you will.
what an extraordinarily knotted, constipated, convolution....Zeus have mercy on us....remember, gentlemen, "culture is not your friend" was not a frivolous pronouncement....nor was Francis Bacon's identification of "an excessive refinement of the human spirit" as the crucial problem of his time....this whole conversation is a most remarkable onanistic proliferation piece for eight-hands...please take this in a spirit of friendship
I try my best in academia to make it known in my work but I have so much more to do! Thank you so much, another great dialogue! So much to reflect upon! X
@@theartofintegralbeing, you are urged to become VEGAN, since carnism (the destructive ideology that supports the use and consumption of animal products, especially for “food”) is arguably the foremost existential crisis.🌱
I think fictionary stories might be a better medium than a complicated book, if the goal is to teach this world (not just the nerds) a recipe for balance
It'd be great if you did a panel on Critical Realism - which had an academic moment a while ago (never as popular as Integral). It had a critique of post-modernism too. And then it faded - not sure if this is because it was inadequate or it just fell victim to academic fadism.
Permaculture teaches a cultural learning process that follows Fobonnacci's pattern. You take the present and the past and you add them together to get the future. Someone should tell the wokies
Modernism+postmodernism = Science but with more doubt or narrative questioning with more rigour. This is a paradigm, so integrating our way to an equilibrium point, causes many path messiness. I expect one side of integral thinking will be correlated with utilising AI, so help lead us forward in the future. That is if we avoid or pass through the AI dystopia scenario.
Hi folks, just wondering if anyone has any info on Ken's politics, would he consider himself some form of a socialist, or does an integral political perspective imply/necessitate some type of centrism, thanks yall!
I would have like to know more about current projects & criticisms of what Integral is doing & where it is going. You really cant talk about the current state of Integral without bringing up the Integral 2.0 movement or David Long. If you want to know where the edge of the conversation is happening th-cam.com/video/TFYefMHZpW0/w-d-xo.html
I don't know if you're aware of this but since the early years, there have been others who didn't want to toe the KW party line and generated alot of heat. Long is nothing new nor is his work particularly advanced. He's mostly another wayward Integral child who will eventually mature and deepen. His work will eventually develop something important, but right now his ego is in the way. It's a common phenom.
@@robertpatton2996 David Long has added Several upgrades to Integral theory and has started an Integral movement to help the world. Which if you listen to this entire talk is really what is missing from whole conversation. It seems like a Lot of people are focusing on translation while David is interested in transformation which is fundamentally a different approach to many problems than most Integralists are talking about. For example; when it comes to spirituality or religion most Integralists are talking about an Integral version of Christianity or Buddhism and David is showing you what a real Integral meta-systemic approach to religion/spirituality looks like. No one else in our community is doing that. It applies to politics too. Most Integralists are talking about hacks into currents systems and David is Interested in an Integral Game B type approach. Transformation not just Translation. It is a major theme and a major difference between what he brings and the norm. He has contributed numerous intro videos bringing thousands of new people to our community through his TH-cam channel. (good intro material is really lacking because Integral Life keeps everything behind a paywall - David makes all of his content free to everyone) I would say David has the best voice & nuanced arguments around integral topics like the pre/trans fallacy. His video about it is the most accessible and complete explanation of the fallacy that exists right now IMO. Just as one example of many. He has even reworked and upgraded the AQAL Map. There is a poster size download to the public for free and in 2022 Integral 2.0 will come out with a newer better upgrade. He is also working on creating an ongoing system/process so the community can continue to upgrade and refine the map together. - essentially working to Democratize Integral and steal the fire from the "orthodoxy" similar to that of Martin Luther which some have equated Davids project to. David has also contributed several philosophical upgrades to Integral Theory in general: Nested Quadratic Holons (is a huge upgrade to the quadrants and Integral theory) he upgraded Integral spiritual practice (4 S's) and has the best conception about what an integral religion would look like. He recently shared an upgraded version on Integral Methodology (4P4Z) in his group so that should be out soon. In general, the view on the quadrants is better because they talk about "quadratic zoom" and "tetra-validation" so with Integral 2.0 we can make way clearer and precise distinctions. He Introduced Semantic Compatiblism as an integral answer to the free will vs determinism problem. As well as other little distinctions like "Historically Born" "Height vs Vastness" in relation to development etc. He also has a healthy FB community that is free to join, he is always going live and hosting talks with his community, doing Q&A's for his group and he is generally making Integral fun, accessible, entertaining, clear, and easy to grasp in ways other Integralist just are not. These are just some of the things he has contributed and he is just getting started. I happen to know he has ideas that he still wants to share. Really, time will tell. I think it will be clear that David Long deserves a lot more credit than he gets. He clearly cares a lot about Integral (15 years at least) and what it can do for the world and as a result is doing tons of work for our community. if you want to know more about what he's offered just follow the link provided in my original comment above to his TH-cam channel.
@@DarkMoonDroid I am. Unfortunately there's not much of a line to tow any more when the current state of KWs integral movement is a self-help business. When you take an honest look around who is doing anything that even closely resembles an actual integral movement? You would think that in this video which is about the current state of integral you would have many wonderful things to say about what integral is doing in the world. But instead all that was really touched on was some history and some explanations about theory. Which is sad and exactly why we need to know about people and movements like integral 2.0 and David long because at least there is somebody out there organizing wether you agree with him or not that is adding to the conversation and to integral as a whole.
Thinking outloud here (25yo integralite) Some mythopoetical story like avatar is deeply resonating from an emotional/poetic pov, and also integral right? Or the colours of magic, provide an existential/ experiential map for human effort, that certainly feels less disembodied.. Evolving of the intellect is nice, but if the simplicitly doesnt immediately follow, people like me (interested, but more focused on integrating lifes more direct stuff, NOT through the mind) will be left behind. I think its time now for a good story, with an integral arc. connecting the archetypal dots of stories that are already deep in the mind (think jbp talking lion king and harry potter) would be more effective than increased complexity and nuance The more complex it becomes, elitist in the use of certain words.. it all tends to exclude and disconnect, which is the opposite of the suposed objective.. If you need an english masters, an IQ of 130 and university-study habits , to understand a theory of unity, to LIVE in unity.. like, no, too much man
but what is it even? i know this is not about that, but what is it? why should i care. The problem is as they talk about it, it's like what is it? how can it work to discuss it without giving specific example about what the f this so called idea is??
Doing integral- what is that? I see it simply as making room for all viewpoints, not dismissing anyone, offering at least a smidge of validity to all. Perhaps stretching to see where someone is coming from, not needing to put everyone on categories or levels. Doing integral is ideally a way of accepting everyone and everything as where it's at for a reason.
I liked the Four Quadrants, but disliked the use of colors. Wilber's book on New Religion is long and repetitive, was a good start, let's keep going...
Hello. I know it's maybe not the right place.. But I have a friend with "skyzophrenia & bipolarity" how can I help with more integral recipes ? is drug the only solutions to tame the symptoms ? thanks you to people who can help, have a beautiful day
@@VahnAeris One doesn't have to go full carnivore in order to get the needed effect. A good *Ketogenic Diet* can work too. I'll come back with the name of the guy who discovered this and some videos to watch...
@@VahnAeris Okay, put this in the YT searchbar and watch it: *Interview with Harvard Psychiatrist and Mental Health Researcher, Dr. Chris Palmer* If I just give you the link, YT will purge the comment.
Wouldn't development just naturally occur? Like in the evolutionary development of a human. Why push or force it? It seems this pushing or forcing of development is really taking a bad turn, and has actually regressed to tribal/amber. Where is everyone on Erickson's model? How does this map?
I wonder if it's mass adoption would lead to the Cultural Revolution but here in America, especially for those who don't go along willingly or no matter how hard the try they can't advance up the color food chain.
That’s a really interesting point. It seems like there’s a fine line between introducing new concepts and force-feeding them to people who aren’t ready to except them. We need Some people who will push new concepts out into society, like Isaac Newton and his discoveries in physics, or MLK and his ideas about creating a more harmonious society. So perhaps we need people who will promote integral theory, but at the same time we need to understand that it will take time for these ideas to become widely excepted.
Who's to say that any of it means anything? How could we possibly know if society has a natural pattern of growth in stages? Even if it does, how do we know what the correct order is? What if our planet has a development abnormality and relativism is supposed to come before rationalism and not the other way around? Just because something makes sense, it does not mean that it is true. We need to get beyond our shattered selves; our society is profoundly sick. But you don't integrate the pus into your wound. If the sepsis takes hold, you die. Not everything should be integrated. There is much that needs to dry up and fall off.
Quite simply, the Integral theory is in a place where it isnt integrated. We havent reached the Integral stage. This theory as well as many others misses a crucial ingredient. The understanding and active awareness of Fundamental human faults. Which is what allows them to affect us much more then would be the case if we were all actively aware of them. These Faults are nothing mysterious or hard to grasp. The problem is we are all, in general, so used to these specific ways of thinking and understanding that we have grown blind to them. We dont see the air we breathe, sort of a thing. And because they are literally Fundamental, they affect both our emotions and minds - because they are primordial. Everything we do, feel and think is influenced by them and very often distorted into extremes by them. This distortion isnt only of enormous extreme obvious kind, but of any variable point, tone and nuance on a continuous shifting spectrum kind. So, although they are very simple when exposed, their effects and consequences are exceedingly tricky. And because they arise from Fundamental abilities without which living beings cannot exist we cannot just get rid of them. Understanding them, becoming actively aware of them is only the first step - because the actual correction, the balance can be achieved only through continuous direct action. Until that happens, there won't be any integration. Every single tier or color in the integral theory is affected by them. All people are affected by them, in multitudes of varying constantly shifting and adjusting degrees and variations. Me, you, the rebel wisdom, Zen masters, Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, the Pope, - every single one.
Is Jordan Peterson a self loathing pluralist? The answer to that can be found in rule 5 of his book. Another thing worth pointing to is the Aristotelian logic that still dominates western thinking. Cause/effect right/wrong good/bad etc So for me, to embody integral is to enter the space of the mysterious middle. The ambiguity of maybe, maybe not, might be both, might be neither. I'm not in that space yet!
@@alextrusk1986 I dont think it would be an issue. David would have upgrades for his Librarian socialist Game B philosophy. He has been a fan of Vaush's & knows where he stands on most issues which is why he wants to talk to him. From what i've seen Vaush makes implicit stage distinctions in his political content & is aware of most of the 4 quadrants plus seems to ground himself in a Hard-agnostic position. He really just lacks explicit stage & line distinctions. I think they would have a lot in common & l cant wait for that talk!
Wilberian Intergral defined here would be simply that every perspective has at least some validity. The idea being if we can find the true or valuable aspect of what someone is adding, we can stop polarizing into camps and endlessly going at each other. Integral models are just helpful tools for achieving that vision. However very few people have the inclination or ability to play mental gymnastics or compile data endlessly in order to accommodate everyone’s perspective. That seems a ludicrous goal to begin with- 8 billion perspectives? Really? In 2000 the west was at peak security and stability so many had loads room for fantasies like Wilberian integral. Now the world is a insecure place and people are disoriented, they need a more grounded and and applicable worldview not some pluralist’s what if project. I think the whole thing is headed in the wrong direction. Postmodernism was meant to be the end not to be the start of a new emerging (and even more complex) worldview. Generally civilization has few redeeming traits western civilization almost made the whole thing worth it seemingly. Then the curtain is being pulled back to reveal its dark side. Western civilization was needed to innovate and produce the tools (technology) for its own enslavement, and China will wield them properly for the most effective and efficient results. Recognize humanity has reached its zenith in terms of putting a positive spin on this nightmare called civilization. In terms of modern spirituality it’s a disaster too, squeezed between New Age materialism and utilitarianism and Woke ideology its getting twisted. The principles Peterson talks about are not even upheld anymore. Nobody even talks about the positive contribution to society that the west has gotten right anymore. At least Peterson allude to the transcendent (Even though he does not embody or teach it) The source of Authority is God, it is written into the US Law, the reason humans have rights is because they are Devine. The reason they are not punished in prisons but rehabilitated (in principle) is because they are not responsible for their actions, the state and the people around them are. If we remove the divinity of humans and the authority of god then the whole project of western civilization falls. Metaphorically the core support columns of western civilization are being melted like the steel beams in the World Trade Center. The only thing that can revitalize civilization is a belief in and upholding of divinity. Unfortunately it has been revealed that god, (The god that runs earth) is a bastard and nobody in thief right mind would worship that god. We should all grant ourselves the authority and remove it from the state and the deity for the state, both are all powerful and irredeemably corrupt. So all there is left is the divinity within ourselves- that strangely is the hardest thing in the world for most to believe. It makes us our own authority and dispenses with the need for maps and systems altogether. Incidentally it is poison for the system of control but poses no threat, people are not here to wake up. Only a tiny percent will ever do that. The option to be free does exist though.
is intergral about achieving a state of wisdom? ... u know the space around each person is best navigated by way of what your lineage story says. it informs and safely inquires into the self and others. that alone is 1 small part of a model that is almost impossible to know with a western lens of diverse world views.
I don't really care what any particular person BELIEVES. You may believe that there is an old man with a white beard perched in the clouds, that the Ultimate Reality is a young blackish-blue Indian guy, that the universe is eternal, that Mother Mary was a certifiable virgin or that gross physical matter is the foundation of existence. The ONLY thing which really matters is your meta-ethics, not your meta-physics. Do you consider any form of non-monarchical government (such as democracy or socialism) to be beneficial? Do you unnecessarily destroy the lives of poor, innocent animals and gorge on their bloody carcasses? Do you believe homosexuality and transvestism is moral? Do you consider feminist ideology to be righteous? If so, then you are objectively immoral and your so-called "enlightened/awakened" state is immaterial, since it does not benefit society in any way.
@@missh1774, respected British anthropology professor, Dr. Edward Dutton, has demonstrated that “LEFTISM” is due to genetic mutations caused by poor breeding strategies. 🤡 To put it simply, in recent decades, those persons who exhibit leftist traits such as egalitarianism, feminism, gynocentrism, socialism, multiculturalism, transvestism, homosexuality, perverse morality, and laziness, have been reproducing at rates far exceeding the previous norm, leading to an explosion of insane, narcissistic SOCIOPATHS in (mostly) Western societies.
@@missh1774: leftism: Otherwise known as “progressivism” and even more inaccurately as “liberalism”, leftism is a term originating from the French Revolution of 1789, in reference to the political faction that opposed the French (so-called) king. However, the term is currently used in common discourse to describe those criminals who actively support (or at least tacitly condone) a host of OBJECTIVELY-WICKED ideologies and practices that contravene dharma, such as non-monarchical governances and corrupt economic systems (particularly socialism, communism, fascism, and liberal democracies), egalitarianism, feminism, perverse sexuality (especially homosexuality, bestiality, and transvestism), multiculturalism, and the illegitimate abortion of innocent, defenceless, unborn children. Cf. “dharma”. In the past decade or two, the mass media, especially the motion picture industry and television production companies, has been aggressively promoting all the above CRIMINAL ideologies and practices, helping to expedite the destruction of human civilization. Recently, large corporations have jumped on the leftist bandwagon (so to speak), in order to profit. As explicated in Chapter 11 of this “A Final Instruction Sheet for Humanity”, the state of being of any particular human (or any other animal for that matter) is due entirely to his or her genetic sequencing and his or her conditioning. Therefore, the explosion of the leftist/liberal mentality in recent decades, particularly in Western countries, has been caused by poor breeding strategies overtaking the more conservative tradition of mate-selection of previous centuries (and indeed, millennia). In other words, due to the fact that criminal behaviour (especially the deviant sexual acts mentioned above) has become increasingly more tolerated, condoned, and even GLORIFIED in most countries, there has been a proliferation of corrupt genetic codes within the wider human population. According to genealogists, for (almost) the entire history of humanity, most women have successfully reproduced, whilst a far far smaller percentage of males have bequeathed their genetic sequence to proceeding generations. Due to the gradual phasing-out of polygamous marriages in even the most conservative societies, as well as the eradication of poverty in most every country, more and more men (as well as women) have been producing offspring. Thus, the human genome has rapidly become adulterated by inferior genetic material (that is, DNA from truly pathetic, uxorious beta-males, bisexuals, and even homosexual couples who engage surrogate mothers or sperm donors in order to conceive children - something of a rare occurrence in previous centuries/millennia). Unsurprisingly, the majority of leftists find it difficult to accept the fact that their criminal mentality is largely inherited (and of course, they are unwilling to acknowledge the blatantly-obvious fact that their ideologies and practices are intrinsically sinful, wicked, evil, and immoral in the first place). It seems the consensus amongst leftist "intellectuals" is that every human mental trait is due entirely to one's environmental conditioning, rather than as a consequence of BOTH one's genetic sequence and one’s conditioning - a fundamentally-flawed assertion that cannot be scientifically-supported. This term was very reluctantly used in the chapter on feminism. I say “reluctantly” because it is unlikely that the term will perdure for many decades longer. This is simple deductive logic, since, as clearly demonstrated in certain chapters in “F.I.S.H”, human civilization cannot survive with such leftist practices and ideologies in place. If you happen to be reading this Holy Scripture a century or more after its conception, you will probably be residing in a nation (as opposed to a country) ruled by a monarch, following the implosion of post-modern, decadent societies. So, either the term “leftism” will eventually become redundant and obsolete, or else, human civilization will devolve into a decadent, diseased state of existence similar to that of the prehistoric era, when the peoples of the world resided in caves or shacks, subsisting on whatever food can be sourced from the surrounding bushland. I trust that you who are reading these wise words will endeavour to influence your social circles to adhere to right-leaning ideologies, such as monarchical governance, an entirely free-market economy, sexual purity, and all other virtuous principles. Fear not, for GOD is with you! P.S. As a general rule, it seems (at least anecdotally) that the farther left-leaning is a person, the more physically (and of course, psychologically) UGLY is that person. Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to prevent leftists from propagating their mutant genes. 🤡
The conversation feels like a mindful word association matrix that is out of touch with reality, in the way “the mind is but the last flower, the cul-de-sac,” ― D. H. Lawrence. While from the perspective of Bion’s Theory of Assumptive Cultures, does the basic working assumption of concept & complexity in this 4 skull sense of life’s experience miss the mark of reality? 4 quotes from the Beatles' favorite Uncle seem appropriate: Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. Imagination is more important than knowledge. If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough. Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein While more poetically: In the Beginning, before the Word, was Consciousness. The primal consciousness in man is pre-mental, and has nothing to do with cognition. It is the same as in the animals. And this pre-mental consciousness remains as long as we live the powerful root and body of our consciousness. The mind is but the last flower, the cul-de-sac. ― D. H. Lawrence.
Dear Rebel Wisdom: I recently stumbled on this channel while searching for Tyson Yunkaporta's Sand Talk. It seems like a very rich and important platform. Yet, in my brief time here I can see that it is overwhelmingly white and male. This is quite problematic for a variety of reasons, please fix it. Rebellion and wisdom are, as you know, not the sole domain of white men. Thanks in advance.
The problem with integral is some of these worldview tensions are mutually exclusive. Any attempt to integrate them is just a superficial bland mix that may talk about multi-perspectives well enough, but can't truly live them all. At the end of the day, we all stand somewhere.
As I understand it, Integral isn't about blending them into a bland soup, rather being able to move between them when necessary (i.e. when the context demands it).
@@F--B Thank you for unpacking that nuance, and I agree with you. Chesterton had a quip about how the Catholic Church loves red and white, but hates pink :). However, he was talking about the Church. As individuals, we are grounded in principles that can't be easily traversed. You either believe humans are naturally benevolent or humans are fallible; humans are perfectable or they are imperfectable; freedom is an absolute good or it is a qualified good; relativism or universal principles; globalism or nationalism; culture is evolving or decaying; and so forth. As humans we live by narratives that tell us who we are and where we are going. Understandably integral has its own meta-narrative, but it can't subsume conflicting narratives to force a fit. I also question if postmodernism is truly more "evolved" than classical liberalism or Traditionalism. Any gifts green has given us are already implicit in those other worldviews, and it seems it has been more of distortion of Truth than one that adds to it.
@@F--B what happens if instead of the context demanding it, the Gov't or you school or your work place demanding it? Seems like group think and loss of the individual. I have a very hard time with that phraseology or more with the word "demand". We are free people.
@@douglasmackinnon7026 I was using the word a little more loosely than you seem to be taking it, likely because for me it doesn't bear the same significance. If you prefer, replace it with 'suggests.'
@@tednation I think some of the binaries you present are false, or at least not mutually exclusive. For instance, both globalism and nationalism can live side by side (e.g. Taleb's 'fractal localism,' which appears to be another form of the concept of subsidiary); within culture some things are evolving and some decaying, so it is doing both depending on where you look; I don't see the problem with humans being both benevolent and fallible. Others do appear to be mutually exclusive: perfectible/imperfectible, relativism/universalism (your one about freedom is a bit iffy as you've qualified it with the word absolute, which you could add to any of the binaries above to make them exclusive). However, I'm not sure how closely they relate to the various stages of Integral. For instance, I can see the benefits of Orange without going full-Enlightenment; and I can see the benefits of Green without going full-Nihilist. I'm not convinced that people really can be a total relativist or a total universalist - we're complex, and contradictory; and we change over time. I do believe we have a basic temperament which predisposes us to certain ways of thinking, but it isn't all encompassing. Does integral attempt to force a fit? What would forcing a fit actually mean? As for your point about postmodernism, it depends what you mean by 'evolved'! I should add that I'm no true-believer - I find Integral an interesting and useful framework, but I think that's about as far as I go with it.
Integral needs to be simpler, and more complex and more truly integrative, which means .... more inclusivity, and not just talking to the integral talking heads
Respected British anthropology professor, Dr. Edward Dutton, has demonstrated that “LEFTISM” is due to genetic mutations caused by poor breeding strategies. 🤡 To put it simply, in recent decades, those persons who exhibit leftist traits such as egalitarianism, feminism, gynocentrism, socialism, multiculturalism, transvestism, homosexuality, perverse morality, and laziness, have been reproducing at rates far exceeding the previous norm, leading to an explosion of insane, narcissistic SOCIOPATHS in (mostly) Western societies.
So first of all, there are a lot of problems. enough problems to through this whole thing back to it's infancy. How about we establish the definition so when we talk and discuss concepts we know what we are talking about. What is the Integral? you asked this question and you al agree no one has a definition for it, like WTF man. what is this shit. Who are those people you are getting on your show, where are the philosophers where are the real thinkers, where are the people who moved nations. This shit show of interviewing Occult Leaders is quite funny, and I am preparing a video on this whole thing.
Integral is a model that predicts human evolution on the widest possible timescale It’s not an aspirational philosophy, that people need to support or not support. Humanity will get to integral even if right now it’s not popular, even if Ken Wilber gets old, or the world dips down into pure chaos temporarily. Disappointed in the way this is framed.
It's both, it seems to me. It is descriptive, taking a long view and tracking trends. But it also recognizes certain developmental necessities for any given time (thinking of Kegan's "In Over Our Heads"): some people in a society at least need a certain degree of development to have any hope of adequately responding to some of the hyper-complex challenges and crises of our times. There's no need for missionary zeal or forcing, but there's nothing wrong with cultivating and encouraging it wherever it wants to emerge. (And here, "it," refers to a certain set of capacities, skills, sensibilities and sensitivities, not necessarily to any branded "model" at all).
@@brucealderman5779 It ends up having this aspirational aspect because people look at it and think "yeah lets make that happen now!" The reality is that it could take a couple hundred years to get to the tipping point of 2nd Tier. I heard Ken Wilber say it would 30 years from now, which is really fast in this timescale, but its still 30 years in the future, not 6 months. The focus on the front end of the podcast seems to me treated it as a normative theory, that had fallen out of favor or the "community" had moved on . If the theory has any validity at all, then all of that is irrelevant in the larger time scale.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
This was the first session in our relaunched Digital Campfire. We've just added a lot more sessions, upcoming with Heather Heying, Hanzi Freinacht and a special launch party for Jamie Wheal's new book 'Recapture the Rapture'. Also the first edition of the Rebel Wisdom book club starts with Jean Gebser's 'Ever Present Origin' with Jeremy Johnson. We're also starting up a monthly AMA to ask any questions about RW content. Memberships start at $5 per month, and allow us to keep making films like this - check out the upcoming events here: rebelwisdom.co.uk/campfire-events
I don't really care what any particular person BELIEVES. You may believe that there is an old man with a white beard perched in the clouds, that the Ultimate Reality is a young blackish-blue Indian guy, that the universe is eternal, that Mother Mary was a certifiable virgin or that gross physical matter is the foundation of existence.
The ONLY thing which really matters is your meta-ethics, not your meta-physics. Do you consider any form of non-monarchical government (such as democracy or socialism) to be beneficial? Do you unnecessarily destroy the lives of poor, innocent animals and gorge on their bloody carcasses? Do you believe homosexuality and transvestism is moral? Do you consider feminist ideology to be righteous?
If so, then you are objectively immoral and your so-called "enlightened/awakened" state is immaterial, since it does not benefit society in any way.
P. S. Kenny is a full-time CRIMINAL. 😈
The Integral community has declined because they locked everything behind a paywall. Many other authors and movements have made much more available for free.
I think this is a big part of it. As primarily Neo Liberals, they made their bed. Now, they're dying in it.
They probably see themselves as a club, not a new way of thinking, being and interacting
There is way more than enough free integral stuff out there
Also few are actually integrally developed.
@@DarkMoonDroid hello xxxx
I learned a hell of a lot from Integral. For example, that the egoic projection of the atmanic qualities onto the samsaric shadow can be a transformative factor in the crystallisation of a new paradigm of self in alignment with the buddhistic symbolism of no-self within the psycho-somatic and ecological realities or skandhas of ordinary life, opening multiple paradigms for assimilation, individuation and ultimate transcendence of the mundane aspects, or post-buddhistic paradigms of the development of gradual or sudden awakening or satori, in the spiritual being, independent of the sway of dualistic phallocratic or even philo-phallocratic narratives co-existing with the core concept of nowness.
Is it me (alone) ?
Layman Pascal remains the most clear and coherent expounder and interpreter
of all the issues involved, especially Integral Theory.
he's a treasure!
Yep.
He's carried the baton with style and humor
Graham is a full-time CRIMINAL. ☝️
I love the reference to light, salt and yeast and it's intent to bring about the kind of perspective worth giving attention to.
Ken Wilber is one of three most important teachers in my adult life, the other two being Jordan Peterson and L. Ron Hubbard. Interpretive frameworks of immediate use over a long span of time and many variables. I feel grateful to him. It's interesting to run up on something that explains phenomena as they roll out, and tempting to to think of it, for a time, as a theory of everything, as Ken did and quite understandably.
L. Ron Hubbard ??
Three full-time CRIMINALS. 🙄☝️🙄
Always good to return to the source: Jean Gebser's Ever-Present Origin
our first Rebel Wisdom book club event in on Gebser, with Jeremy Johnson - next Tuesday
Sorry - Monday!
@@RebelWisdom Monday 4/5/21? I will alert the Gebser groups I'm part of.
@@LisaMaroski send an email to info@rebelwisdom.co.uk - can invite you and others
@@RebelWisdom I sent an email on Monday...no response yet...can send another.
A time and a season , that’s what I’ve found. 65 now, . Acts 19 ..... into all truth.....
Don’t be , ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.
You guys are great and definitely on the right track .
Mike . Australiah
In your own words, define “TRUTH”. ☝️🤔☝️
I loved this conversation. I just read the religion of tomorrow by Ken Wilber and found it a great map of explaining reality. Its always a good idea to look at any map though and see its limits.
Don't believe everything you READ. 📖
Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱
YES! "Emotional avoidance of the down & dirty work." This convo was like a tall drink of water in a desert world.
Ah, great take on Rogan at about 59 minutes in!!! I teach dance at a university and have used Integral Theory to organize my research so I feel like I’ve been waiting for this convo for a long time.
Wonderful conversation! This is a conversation I was very thirsty to hear about, especially with RW’s critical lens. Thank you for inviting these speakers and asking them excellent, pointed questions!
Excellent and ordinary are RELATIVE. 😉
Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱
I think what this whole conversation is all about I tried to reach that state of being feeling all the crap we’ve been fed was nonsense at the core and seeing people just obeying without questioning.
Working on myself hugely only since few years but continuing following the intuition line from childhood.
The most essential things are the most important, if we don’t master them we can’t sustain innovate progress evolve.
I know the Loevinger model of development - which is one of the major models informing Integral - has been used successfully in at least eleven different cultures. This includes a study done in the African country of Mali, which was specifically chosen for its collectivistic values. The basic punchline is that the developmental stages seemed to hold regardless of the level of collectivism.
As Harvard's Robert Kegan quips, the people who seem most likely to question the universality of developmental stages are not people from differing cultures, but are instead Western persons who are suspicious of the "cultural colonialism" of the West.
A really great conversation! Thank you 💥
Great and lowly are RELATIVE. 😉
Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱
Thanks Rebel Wisdom. Two bright dudes and good conversation, especially that Layman guys. Cheers Matt
There's a relatively simple way to address the issue of aggression, which comes from the Mahayana Buddhism (Bodhisattvayana) tradition, and it basically states: you can only harm another when that is necessary (and you should be sure) to prevent greater harm.
What a great session. Many thanks for it --- truly a lot of food for deep thought. Always engaging and insightful themes you approach. Continue the great work you do.
I've seen a portion of "Integralists" who seem to have gotten distracted by hyper-partisanship and quasi-wokeness, and I don't think this serves as a good attractor, or a fair expression of what Integral Theory is.
Layman pointed out that the Green-based groups are present in Integral. They often believe they are operating in the Integral Zone, but some aren't. But Integral doesn't reject people's developmental needs. So there won't be any strong distancing.
If woke is involved in any way... It's a wrap. Only a matter of time before its demise.
@@Shin_LonaAgreed. It's not all "Integralists", but a few of them. I think it's irritating to see it in Integral thought, because I believe Integral has exactly what it takes to disarm wokeism, and offer a healthier future, especially culturally.
I was around the Integral community at its peak and participated in Integral Institute meetings at Ken's house in Boulder and also at the loft in Denver after he moved there. This was around 2000. Ken's work is a beautiful attempt to embrace everyone and everything. I've always thought of it as an expression of Eros. I was also hanging out with some Heidegger scholars who were applying his philosophy in a business context. They helped me see that Ken's AQAL model is what they called "Yet Another Descriptive Ontology." In other words, it was a map. Yet there is a lot of reality that is not mappable. In fact, when you try to include these aspects of reality, they actually dereify your maps. This is what I think a lot of postmodernism was trying to grapple with, however, within a structural view. In my own work, I gravitated toward Generative Ontologies which work with what is arising in direct experience, including especially the complex process aspects of experience that aren't mappable. This immediately brings in embodied experience and complex group dynamics. This too is an expression of Eros, however, the embrace is more direct and immediate rather than conceptual. Given this I became less interested in describing development and more interested in working in real-time to generating development. It turns out that you don't need to be able to describe or map development in order to generate it. In fact, I have found that trying to assess development using models of adult development can actually undermine the generation of development, which is actually more complex and non-linear than these models portray. I really enjoyed this conversation and agreed with nearly all of it. However, it seemed to me to be a conversation about the state of integral held mostly inside the framework of integral. This is necessary for sure, but what about viewing the state of integral from other meta-perspectives that are not framed using the language of AQAL? Thank you for all your work to host these conversations.
Great share Steve. I got the distinction of a generative epistemological language via Werner Erhard. Took me decades to get IT as a living phenomena. Always enjoyed Ken Wilbers books. Way over my head but I learned to make meditation a lifestyle because of Ken.
@@whowonthatballgame4298 Thanks. Yes, I learned generative ontology from the tradition that Erhard learned it from.
This is a fantastic comment, and I love the distinction between descriptive and generative ontologies. I would love to write a longer reply, but for now I would just like to ask if it might be helpful to distinguish between integral as a reality experienced from a certain developmental vantage point, and integral as a translation of that reality into linguistic signifiers. It seems to me that as long as one doesn't have the opportunity to meet and talk to late-stage individuals, a verbal transcription (or model if you will) of the view from that altitude might be the best hope to achieve the necessary scaffolding required to grow. In a different knowledge ecology, with no podcasts, no Zoom meet-ups, and no internet, making psychoactive textual renderings of late-stage perspectives makes a lot of sense. Maps aren't problematic per se, they are just a way to encode experience in a de-localized carrier. Human interaction is of course much more psychoactive, so now that we are moving into a different knowledge ecology, this would be the direction to move towards for the integral movement, but for anyone who lacks the necessary tools or infrastructure to participate in the new knowledge ecology, then maps, concepts, linguistic signifiers might still be the best way to go. Of course, having a common language, or a conceptual repertoire, which is borne out of integral vantage points is majorly useful, and when it comes to getting these ideas into academia, I would say it is a prerequisite. So then it makes sense to not move away from maps, but to focus even more on map-making, and to expose the integral map to scrutiny by academic communities and modify it as the process moves along.
@@erikljungberg1056 I recall Ken saying he had to have evidence ,proof to be put on the Integral map. In a linguistic generative phenomena the ground of being is nothing. From nothing one generates and brings into being a living abstraction and evidence follows. In other words listening ,speaking into existence transcends the map. Listening is key . I often say my life of health and fitness I owe to Ken and Tony Robbins My life of nothingness I owe to Erhard.
There probably needs to be a club for you guys "Wilbers Lofties" Strange how it was a kind of embarrassment at the time and now...I'm still jealous as hell
At point where you are talking about whether to make the Integral content simpler to make it easier to spread. I am wondering how much impact can come from the person relaying the information truly embodying Integral consciousness and relating in a way to others that strikes them that this is something different, that this is something they want to aspire to. I would love to see this take on more via transmission, if you will.
what an extraordinarily knotted, constipated, convolution....Zeus have mercy on us....remember, gentlemen, "culture is not your friend" was not a frivolous pronouncement....nor was Francis Bacon's identification of "an excessive refinement of the human spirit" as the crucial problem of his time....this whole conversation is a most remarkable onanistic proliferation piece for eight-hands...please take this in a spirit of friendship
I try my best in academia to make it known in my work but I have so much more to do! Thank you so much, another great dialogue! So much to reflect upon! X
Great and lowly are RELATIVE. 😉
Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱
@@ReverendDr.Thomas Sorry I don’t understand what you mean
@@theartofintegralbeing, you are urged to become VEGAN, since carnism (the destructive ideology that supports the use and consumption of animal products, especially for “food”) is arguably the foremost existential crisis.🌱
@@ReverendDr.Thomas OK, agreed, but why are you saying this to me in this thread?
I think fictionary stories might be a better medium than a complicated book, if the goal is to teach this world (not just the nerds) a recipe for balance
It'd be great if you did a panel on Critical Realism - which had an academic moment a while ago (never as popular as Integral). It had a critique of post-modernism too. And then it faded - not sure if this is because it was inadequate or it just fell victim to academic fadism.
Permaculture teaches a cultural learning process that follows Fobonnacci's pattern. You take the present and the past and you add them together to get the future. Someone should tell the wokies
Strange you say this as I was introduced to Ken whilst getting a PDC. Possibly of equal or greater ultimate value than the work of Molllison
@@darrenmanser2847 if you integrate the two its even better no? :)
Integration and application. Possibly the prime thematic of this video
Layman Pascal = Smartest guy in the room
And with a really lovely smile
And a CHANDĀLA. 😈
Modernism+postmodernism = Science but with more doubt or narrative questioning with more rigour. This is a paradigm, so integrating our way to an equilibrium point, causes many path messiness.
I expect one side of integral thinking will be correlated with utilising AI, so help lead us forward in the future. That is if we avoid or pass through the AI dystopia scenario.
Hi folks, just wondering if anyone has any info on Ken's politics, would he consider himself some form of a socialist, or does an integral political perspective imply/necessitate some type of centrism, thanks yall!
Wow. I took a class on this years ago Evergreen state college. I didn’t think it was still talked about.
It is a nice theory but not perfect.
I would have like to know more about current projects & criticisms of what Integral is doing & where it is going. You really cant talk about the current state of Integral without bringing up the Integral 2.0 movement or David Long. If you want to know where the edge of the conversation is happening th-cam.com/video/TFYefMHZpW0/w-d-xo.html
I don't know if you're aware of this but since the early years, there have been others who didn't want to toe the KW party line and generated alot of heat. Long is nothing new nor is his work particularly advanced. He's mostly another wayward Integral child who will eventually mature and deepen. His work will eventually develop something important, but right now his ego is in the way. It's a common phenom.
Has he brought anything really original or new? I can't think of anything.
LOL..... as if David Long has respect within the Integral community.
@@robertpatton2996
David Long has added Several upgrades to Integral theory and has started an Integral movement to help the world. Which if you listen to this entire talk is really what is missing from whole conversation. It seems like a Lot of people are focusing on translation while David is interested in transformation which is fundamentally a different approach to many problems than most Integralists are talking about. For example; when it comes to spirituality or religion most Integralists are talking about an Integral version of Christianity or Buddhism and David is showing you what a real Integral meta-systemic approach to religion/spirituality looks like. No one else in our community is doing that. It applies to politics too. Most Integralists are talking about hacks into currents systems and David is Interested in an Integral Game B type approach. Transformation not just Translation. It is a major theme and a major difference between what he brings and the norm.
He has contributed numerous intro videos bringing thousands of new people to our community through his TH-cam channel. (good intro material is really lacking because Integral Life keeps everything behind a paywall - David makes all of his content free to everyone) I would say David has the best voice & nuanced arguments around integral topics like the pre/trans fallacy. His video about it is the most accessible and complete explanation of the fallacy that exists right now IMO. Just as one example of many.
He has even reworked and upgraded the AQAL Map. There is a poster size download to the public for free and in 2022 Integral 2.0 will come out with a newer better upgrade. He is also working on creating an ongoing system/process so the community can continue to upgrade and refine the map together. - essentially working to Democratize Integral and steal the fire from the "orthodoxy" similar to that of Martin Luther which some have equated Davids project to.
David has also contributed several philosophical upgrades to Integral Theory in general: Nested Quadratic Holons (is a huge upgrade to the quadrants and Integral theory) he upgraded Integral spiritual practice (4 S's) and has the best conception about what an integral religion would look like. He recently shared an upgraded version on Integral Methodology (4P4Z) in his group so that should be out soon. In general, the view on the quadrants is better because they talk about "quadratic zoom" and "tetra-validation" so with Integral 2.0 we can make way clearer and precise distinctions. He Introduced Semantic Compatiblism as an integral answer to the free will vs determinism problem. As well as other little distinctions like "Historically Born" "Height vs Vastness" in relation to development etc.
He also has a healthy FB community that is free to join, he is always going live and hosting talks with his community, doing Q&A's for his group and he is generally making Integral fun, accessible, entertaining, clear, and easy to grasp in ways other Integralist just are not.
These are just some of the things he has contributed and he is just getting started. I happen to know he has ideas that he still wants to share.
Really, time will tell. I think it will be clear that David Long deserves a lot more credit than he gets. He clearly cares a lot about Integral (15 years at least) and what it can do for the world and as a result is doing tons of work for our community.
if you want to know more about what he's offered just follow the link provided in my original comment above to his TH-cam channel.
@@DarkMoonDroid I am. Unfortunately there's not much of a line to tow any more when the current state of KWs integral movement is a self-help business. When you take an honest look around who is doing anything that even closely resembles an actual integral movement? You would think that in this video which is about the current state of integral you would have many wonderful things to say about what integral is doing in the world. But instead all that was really touched on was some history and some explanations about theory.
Which is sad and exactly why we need to know about people and movements like integral 2.0 and David long because at least there is somebody out there organizing wether you agree with him or not that is adding to the conversation and to integral as a whole.
"He's been punched in the face a lot"... lol, you could get a full episode out of that remark.
Rogan physically. Peterson metaphorically. Jordan still has the better face
I can see certain similarities between integral theory and levels of consciousness theory by David R Hawkins
Thinking outloud here (25yo integralite)
Some mythopoetical story like avatar is deeply resonating from an emotional/poetic pov, and also integral right?
Or the colours of magic, provide an existential/ experiential map for human effort, that certainly feels less disembodied..
Evolving of the intellect is nice, but if the simplicitly doesnt immediately follow, people like me (interested, but more focused on integrating lifes more direct stuff, NOT through the mind) will be left behind.
I think its time now for a good story, with an integral arc.
connecting the archetypal dots of stories that are already deep in the mind (think jbp talking lion king and harry potter) would be more effective than increased complexity and nuance
The more complex it becomes, elitist in the use of certain words.. it all tends to exclude and disconnect, which is the opposite of the suposed objective..
If you need an english masters, an IQ of 130 and university-study habits , to understand a theory of unity, to LIVE in unity.. like, no, too much man
Kindly repeat that in ENGLISH, Miss.☝️
Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱
What's a good place to start with Integral for someone who doesn't see the value and comes from a standpoint of thinking it to be pointless wankery?
Ken Wilber's early books
I have lots of intro material on my TH-cam channel
Trust your instincts. It's too intellectual for me too. But it attracts academic types.
but what is it even? i know this is not about that, but what is it? why should i care. The problem is as they talk about it, it's like what is it? how can it work to discuss it without giving specific example about what the f this so called idea is??
We need to make integral more nuanced and complex? Who is this guy?
Doing integral- what is that? I see it simply as making room for all viewpoints, not dismissing anyone, offering at least a smidge of validity to all. Perhaps stretching to see where someone is coming from, not needing to put everyone on categories or levels. Doing integral is ideally a way of accepting everyone and everything as where it's at for a reason.
I liked the Four Quadrants, but disliked the use of colors. Wilber's book on New Religion is long and repetitive, was a good start, let's keep going...
Hello.
I know it's maybe not the right place..
But I have a friend with "skyzophrenia & bipolarity" how can I help with more integral recipes ?
is drug the only solutions to tame the symptoms ?
thanks you to people who can help, have a beautiful day
Might watch Mikhaila Peterson "The Lion Diet" . Many people with similar issues have improved a lot. Also could search facebook carnivore groups.
@@lolar6085 not sure I'll convince with this, but thanks
Physical/Nature practice, Social/Emotional practice, Cognitive/Writing practice, Creative practice, perhaps.
@@VahnAeris
One doesn't have to go full carnivore in order to get the needed effect. A good *Ketogenic Diet* can work too. I'll come back with the name of the guy who discovered this and some videos to watch...
@@VahnAeris
Okay, put this in the YT searchbar and watch it:
*Interview with Harvard Psychiatrist and Mental Health Researcher, Dr. Chris Palmer*
If I just give you the link, YT will purge the comment.
Wouldn't development just naturally occur? Like in the evolutionary development of a human.
Why push or force it? It seems this pushing or forcing of development is really taking a bad turn, and has actually regressed to tribal/amber.
Where is everyone on Erickson's model? How does this map?
Why even try, who wants to be Yogi or Saint anyhow? Many of them are straight up frauds and hucksters, John of God for example.
I wonder if it's mass adoption would lead to the Cultural Revolution but here in America, especially for those who don't go along willingly or no matter how hard the try they can't advance up the color food chain.
Yeah that's my main issue with it. It's like forcing music. That's why I don't study theory
That’s a really interesting point. It seems like there’s a fine line between introducing new concepts and force-feeding them to people who aren’t ready to except them.
We need Some people who will push new concepts out into society, like Isaac Newton and his discoveries in physics, or MLK and his ideas about creating a more harmonious society.
So perhaps we need people who will promote integral theory, but at the same time we need to understand that it will take time for these ideas to become widely excepted.
@@brendancahill3723 BC you smart.
Who's to say that any of it means anything? How could we possibly know if society has a natural pattern of growth in stages? Even if it does, how do we know what the correct order is? What if our planet has a development abnormality and relativism is supposed to come before rationalism and not the other way around? Just because something makes sense, it does not mean that it is true.
We need to get beyond our shattered selves; our society is profoundly sick. But you don't integrate the pus into your wound. If the sepsis takes hold, you die. Not everything should be integrated. There is much that needs to dry up and fall off.
Bruce was correct the first time- how can you map spirit? You can’t. Ken just stole spiral dynamics and plopped his worldview on top of it.
What is this “SPIRIT” of which you speak? 🤔
Quite simply, the Integral theory is in a place where it isnt integrated. We havent reached the Integral stage. This theory as well as many others misses a crucial ingredient. The understanding and active awareness of Fundamental human faults. Which is what allows them to affect us much more then would be the case if we were all actively aware of them. These Faults are nothing mysterious or hard to grasp. The problem is we are all, in general, so used to these specific ways of thinking and understanding that we have grown blind to them. We dont see the air we breathe, sort of a thing. And because they are literally Fundamental, they affect both our emotions and minds - because they are primordial. Everything we do, feel and think is influenced by them and very often distorted into extremes by them. This distortion isnt only of enormous extreme obvious kind, but of any variable point, tone and nuance on a continuous shifting spectrum kind.
So, although they are very simple when exposed, their effects and consequences are exceedingly tricky.
And because they arise from Fundamental abilities without which living beings cannot exist we cannot just get rid of them.
Understanding them, becoming actively aware of them is only the first step - because the actual correction, the balance can be achieved only through continuous direct action.
Until that happens, there won't be any integration. Every single tier or color in the integral theory is affected by them. All people are affected by them, in multitudes of varying constantly shifting and adjusting degrees and variations. Me, you, the rebel wisdom, Zen masters, Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, the Pope, - every single one.
Is Jordan Peterson a self loathing pluralist? The answer to that can be found in rule 5 of his book. Another thing worth pointing to is the Aristotelian logic that still dominates western thinking.
Cause/effect right/wrong good/bad etc
So for me, to embody integral is to enter the space of the mysterious middle. The ambiguity of maybe, maybe not, might be both, might be neither. I'm not in that space yet!
Someone introduce integral to the sjw community such as destiny and vaush
I would love to see Vaush find integral.
@@iam-kai you reckon David long could go on is channel and explain that and spiral dynamics to him.
@@alextrusk1986 I dont think it would be an issue. David would have upgrades for his Librarian socialist Game B philosophy. He has been a fan of Vaush's & knows where he stands on most issues which is why he wants to talk to him. From what i've seen Vaush makes implicit stage distinctions in his political content & is aware of most of the 4 quadrants plus seems to ground himself in a Hard-agnostic position. He really just lacks explicit stage & line distinctions. I think they would have a lot in common & l cant wait for that talk!
Ken without his footnotes is empty. His footnotes without Ken are blind.
Not sure whether or not I agree with this, but it’s because I’m just reveling in the beauty of the statement itself.
Please cover Covid passports and what this means
This is a serious issue
I'd like this too but they always seem to get a little mealy mouthed whenever it branches the Qanon tree
72 is not that old
Wilberian Intergral defined here would be simply that every perspective has at least some validity. The idea being if we can find the true or valuable aspect of what someone is adding, we can stop polarizing into camps and endlessly going at each other.
Integral models are just helpful tools for achieving that vision.
However very few people have the inclination or ability to play mental gymnastics or compile data endlessly in order to accommodate everyone’s perspective. That seems a ludicrous goal to begin with- 8 billion perspectives? Really?
In 2000 the west was at peak security and stability so many had loads room for fantasies like Wilberian integral. Now the world is a insecure place and people are disoriented, they need a more grounded and and applicable worldview not some pluralist’s what if project. I think the whole thing is headed in the wrong direction.
Postmodernism was meant to be the end not to be the start of a new emerging (and even more complex) worldview. Generally civilization has few redeeming traits western civilization almost made the whole thing worth it seemingly. Then the curtain is being pulled back to reveal its dark side.
Western civilization was needed to innovate and produce the tools (technology) for its own enslavement, and China will wield them properly for the most effective and efficient results. Recognize humanity has reached its zenith in terms of putting a positive spin on this nightmare called civilization. In terms of modern spirituality it’s a disaster too, squeezed between New Age materialism and utilitarianism and Woke ideology its getting twisted.
The principles Peterson talks about are not even upheld anymore. Nobody even talks about the positive contribution to society that the west has gotten right anymore. At least Peterson allude to the transcendent (Even though he does not embody or teach it)
The source of Authority is God, it is written into the US Law, the reason humans have rights is because they are Devine. The reason they are not punished in prisons but rehabilitated (in principle) is because they are not responsible for their actions, the state and the people around them are. If we remove the divinity of humans and the authority of god then the whole project of western civilization falls. Metaphorically the core support columns of western civilization are being melted like the steel beams in the World Trade Center. The only thing that can revitalize civilization is a belief in and upholding of divinity. Unfortunately it has been revealed that god, (The god that runs earth) is a bastard and nobody in thief right mind would worship that god. We should all grant ourselves the authority and remove it from the state and the deity for the state, both are all powerful and irredeemably corrupt.
So all there is left is the divinity within ourselves- that strangely is the hardest thing in the world for most to believe. It makes us our own authority and dispenses with the need for maps and systems altogether. Incidentally it is poison for the system of control but poses no threat, people are not here to wake up. Only a tiny percent will ever do that. The option to be free does exist though.
is intergral about achieving a state of wisdom? ... u know the space around each person is best navigated by way of what your lineage story says. it informs and safely inquires into the self and others. that alone is 1 small part of a model that is almost impossible to know with a western lens of diverse world views.
I don't really care what any particular person BELIEVES. You may believe that there is an old man with a white beard perched in the clouds, that the Ultimate Reality is a young blackish-blue Indian guy, that the universe is eternal, that Mother Mary was a certifiable virgin or that gross physical matter is the foundation of existence.
The ONLY thing which really matters is your meta-ethics, not your meta-physics. Do you consider any form of non-monarchical government (such as democracy or socialism) to be beneficial? Do you unnecessarily destroy the lives of poor, innocent animals and gorge on their bloody carcasses? Do you believe homosexuality and transvestism is moral? Do you consider feminist ideology to be righteous?
If so, then you are objectively immoral and your so-called "enlightened/awakened" state is immaterial, since it does not benefit society in any way.
@@ReverendDr.Thomas hh you are so funny. I enjoy reading your posts. Thank you.
@@missh1774, respected British anthropology professor, Dr. Edward Dutton, has demonstrated that “LEFTISM” is due to genetic mutations caused by poor breeding strategies.
🤡
To put it simply, in recent decades, those persons who exhibit leftist traits such as egalitarianism, feminism, gynocentrism, socialism, multiculturalism, transvestism, homosexuality, perverse morality, and laziness, have been reproducing at rates far exceeding the previous norm, leading to an explosion of insane, narcissistic SOCIOPATHS in (mostly) Western societies.
@@ReverendDr.Thomas hmm ... so where do you stand on such things?
@@missh1774:
leftism:
Otherwise known as “progressivism” and even more inaccurately as “liberalism”, leftism is a term originating from the French Revolution of 1789, in reference to the political faction that opposed the French (so-called) king. However, the term is currently used in common discourse to describe those criminals who actively support (or at least tacitly condone) a host of OBJECTIVELY-WICKED ideologies and practices that contravene dharma, such as non-monarchical governances and corrupt economic systems (particularly socialism, communism, fascism, and liberal democracies), egalitarianism, feminism, perverse sexuality (especially homosexuality, bestiality, and transvestism), multiculturalism, and the illegitimate abortion of innocent, defenceless, unborn children. Cf. “dharma”.
In the past decade or two, the mass media, especially the motion picture industry and television production companies, has been aggressively promoting all the above CRIMINAL ideologies and practices, helping to expedite the destruction of human civilization. Recently, large corporations have jumped on the leftist bandwagon (so to speak), in order to profit.
As explicated in Chapter 11 of this “A Final Instruction Sheet for Humanity”, the state of being of any particular human (or any other animal for that matter) is due entirely to his or her genetic sequencing and his or her conditioning. Therefore, the explosion of the leftist/liberal mentality in recent decades, particularly in Western countries, has been caused by poor breeding strategies overtaking the more conservative tradition of mate-selection of previous centuries (and indeed, millennia). In other words, due to the fact that criminal behaviour (especially the deviant sexual acts mentioned above) has become increasingly more tolerated, condoned, and even GLORIFIED in most countries, there has been a proliferation of corrupt genetic codes within the wider human population.
According to genealogists, for (almost) the entire history of humanity, most women have successfully reproduced, whilst a far far smaller percentage of males have bequeathed their genetic sequence to proceeding generations. Due to the gradual phasing-out of polygamous marriages in even the most conservative societies, as well as the eradication of poverty in most every country, more and more men (as well as women) have been producing offspring. Thus, the human genome has rapidly become adulterated by inferior genetic material (that is, DNA from truly pathetic, uxorious beta-males, bisexuals, and even homosexual couples who engage surrogate mothers or sperm donors in order to conceive children - something of a rare occurrence in previous centuries/millennia).
Unsurprisingly, the majority of leftists find it difficult to accept the fact that their criminal mentality is largely inherited (and of course, they are unwilling to acknowledge the blatantly-obvious fact that their ideologies and practices are intrinsically sinful, wicked, evil, and immoral in the first place). It seems the consensus amongst leftist "intellectuals" is that every human mental trait is due entirely to one's environmental conditioning, rather than as a consequence of BOTH one's genetic sequence and one’s conditioning - a fundamentally-flawed assertion that cannot be scientifically-supported.
This term was very reluctantly used in the chapter on feminism. I say “reluctantly” because it is unlikely that the term will perdure for many decades longer. This is simple deductive logic, since, as clearly demonstrated in certain chapters in “F.I.S.H”, human civilization cannot survive with such leftist practices and ideologies in place. If you happen to be reading this Holy Scripture a century or more after its conception, you will probably be residing in a nation (as opposed to a country) ruled by a monarch, following the implosion of post-modern, decadent societies. So, either the term “leftism” will eventually become redundant and obsolete, or else, human civilization will devolve into a decadent, diseased state of existence similar to that of the prehistoric era, when the peoples of the world resided in caves or shacks, subsisting on whatever food can be sourced from the surrounding bushland. I trust that you who are reading these wise words will endeavour to influence your social circles to adhere to right-leaning ideologies, such as monarchical governance, an entirely free-market economy, sexual purity, and all other virtuous principles.
Fear not, for GOD is with you!
P.S. As a general rule, it seems (at least anecdotally) that the farther left-leaning is a person, the more physically (and of course, psychologically) UGLY is that person. Unfortunately, that doesn’t seem to prevent leftists from propagating their mutant genes. 🤡
The conversation feels like a mindful word association matrix that is out of touch with reality, in the way “the mind is but the last flower, the cul-de-sac,” ― D. H. Lawrence. While from the perspective of Bion’s Theory of Assumptive Cultures, does the basic working assumption of concept & complexity in this 4 skull sense of life’s experience miss the mark of reality?
4 quotes from the Beatles' favorite Uncle seem appropriate:
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
If you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.
- Albert Einstein
While more poetically:
In the Beginning, before the Word, was Consciousness.
The primal consciousness in man is pre-mental,
and has nothing to do with cognition.
It is the same as in the animals.
And this pre-mental consciousness remains
as long as we live the powerful root
and body of our consciousness.
The mind is but the last flower, the cul-de-sac.
― D. H. Lawrence.
Dear Rebel Wisdom: I recently stumbled on this channel while searching for Tyson Yunkaporta's Sand Talk. It seems like a very rich and important platform. Yet, in my brief time here I can see that it is overwhelmingly white and male. This is quite problematic for a variety of reasons, please fix it. Rebellion and wisdom are, as you know, not the sole domain of white men. Thanks in advance.
The truly woke
The problem with integral is some of these worldview tensions are mutually exclusive. Any attempt to integrate them is just a superficial bland mix that may talk about multi-perspectives well enough, but can't truly live them all. At the end of the day, we all stand somewhere.
As I understand it, Integral isn't about blending them into a bland soup, rather being able to move between them when necessary (i.e. when the context demands it).
@@F--B Thank you for unpacking that nuance, and I agree with you. Chesterton had a quip about how the Catholic Church loves red and white, but hates pink :). However, he was talking about the Church. As individuals, we are grounded in principles that can't be easily traversed. You either believe humans are naturally benevolent or humans are fallible; humans are perfectable or they are imperfectable; freedom is an absolute good or it is a qualified good; relativism or universal principles; globalism or nationalism; culture is evolving or decaying; and so forth. As humans we live by narratives that tell us who we are and where we are going. Understandably integral has its own meta-narrative, but it can't subsume conflicting narratives to force a fit. I also question if postmodernism is truly more "evolved" than classical liberalism or Traditionalism. Any gifts green has given us are already implicit in those other worldviews, and it seems it has been more of distortion of Truth than one that adds to it.
@@F--B what happens if instead of the context demanding it, the Gov't or you school or your work place demanding it? Seems like group think and loss of the individual. I have a very hard time with that phraseology or more with the word "demand". We are free people.
@@douglasmackinnon7026 I was using the word a little more loosely than you seem to be taking it, likely because for me it doesn't bear the same significance. If you prefer, replace it with 'suggests.'
@@tednation I think some of the binaries you present are false, or at least not mutually exclusive. For instance, both globalism and nationalism can live side by side (e.g. Taleb's 'fractal localism,' which appears to be another form of the concept of subsidiary); within culture some things are evolving and some decaying, so it is doing both depending on where you look; I don't see the problem with humans being both benevolent and fallible.
Others do appear to be mutually exclusive: perfectible/imperfectible, relativism/universalism (your one about freedom is a bit iffy as you've qualified it with the word absolute, which you could add to any of the binaries above to make them exclusive). However, I'm not sure how closely they relate to the various stages of Integral.
For instance, I can see the benefits of Orange without going full-Enlightenment; and I can see the benefits of Green without going full-Nihilist. I'm not convinced that people really can be a total relativist or a total universalist - we're complex, and contradictory; and we change over time. I do believe we have a basic temperament which predisposes us to certain ways of thinking, but it isn't all encompassing. Does integral attempt to force a fit? What would forcing a fit actually mean?
As for your point about postmodernism, it depends what you mean by 'evolved'!
I should add that I'm no true-believer - I find Integral an interesting and useful framework, but I think that's about as far as I go with it.
Integral needs to be simpler, and more complex and more truly integrative, which means .... more inclusivity, and not just talking to the integral talking heads
Respected British anthropology professor, Dr. Edward Dutton, has demonstrated that “LEFTISM” is due to genetic mutations caused by poor breeding strategies.
🤡
To put it simply, in recent decades, those persons who exhibit leftist traits such as egalitarianism, feminism, gynocentrism, socialism, multiculturalism, transvestism, homosexuality, perverse morality, and laziness, have been reproducing at rates far exceeding the previous norm, leading to an explosion of insane, narcissistic SOCIOPATHS in (mostly) Western societies.
So first of all, there are a lot of problems. enough problems to through this whole thing back to it's infancy. How about we establish the definition so when we talk and discuss concepts we know what we are talking about. What is the Integral? you asked this question and you al agree no one has a definition for it, like WTF man. what is this shit. Who are those people you are getting on your show, where are the philosophers where are the real thinkers, where are the people who moved nations. This shit show of interviewing Occult Leaders is quite funny, and I am preparing a video on this whole thing.
Nietzsche is right wing now. LOL!
He always was! Some folk think Jung is too.
@@maudegonne3740 I guess you were there...
Integral is a model that predicts human evolution on the widest possible timescale It’s not an aspirational philosophy, that people need to support or not support. Humanity will get to integral even if right now it’s not popular, even if Ken Wilber gets old, or the world dips down into pure chaos temporarily. Disappointed in the way this is framed.
It's both, it seems to me. It is descriptive, taking a long view and tracking trends. But it also recognizes certain developmental necessities for any given time (thinking of Kegan's "In Over Our Heads"): some people in a society at least need a certain degree of development to have any hope of adequately responding to some of the hyper-complex challenges and crises of our times. There's no need for missionary zeal or forcing, but there's nothing wrong with cultivating and encouraging it wherever it wants to emerge. (And here, "it," refers to a certain set of capacities, skills, sensibilities and sensitivities, not necessarily to any branded "model" at all).
@@brucealderman5779 It ends up having this aspirational aspect because people look at it and think "yeah lets make that happen now!" The reality is that it could take a couple hundred years to get to the tipping point of 2nd Tier. I heard Ken Wilber say it would 30 years from now, which is really fast in this timescale, but its still 30 years in the future, not 6 months. The focus on the front end of the podcast seems to me treated it as a normative theory, that had fallen out of favor or the "community" had moved on . If the theory has any validity at all, then all of that is irrelevant in the larger time scale.
First hehe xd
What an ego !!
🤪