I am saying this because I am an En Route controller, and I issue these clearances to flight service all day, you should always listen to your void time. There's a reason for it. You should be given a clearance void if not off by, but you should also be given a if not off by xxxx advise ATC not later than xxxx of intentions. They will issue a new relase, possibly with different instructions, because the traffic in the air obviously keeps moving. Don't be like this guy and think "oh it's okay if we are a little late". You might be this time. But maybe not next time. TAKE YOUR TIME, YES, don't pit safety aside to make the void, but let them know your not going to make it and get a new release.
You sir, are one terrific flight instructor. I would have killed to have had you as my instructor instead of the poor ones I struggled with. Your students are so fortunate to have you. All the best and really love the videos.
When the weather is clear, like in the video, ATC does not like to give void times because it interferes with the traffic flow. If the weather were 300-1, ATC would not have a problem with that. Remember, an aircraft operating IFR is provided separation services from all traffic. Since 08J is an uncontrolled airfield, ATC cannot allow any other traffic to make approaches until either the IFR aircraft has declared airborne or the void time has expired. ATC also has to make allowances for the departure corridor, as well. Void times can be up to 30 minutes, but ATC will not like to make a hole in their airspace for 30 minutes. Imagine having to leave the back way out of your neighborhood when you go to work because you are told some guy may or may not block your usual path but we won't know until he tells us he is clear.
@@MzeroAFlightTraining No joke! LOL my first instructor was in the Marines and this was at ERAU... So he was a hard core stickler for perfect on procedures and communication AND at one of the more "airline procedure" type of flight schools for getting a PPL. It made me a better pilot though I guess and I didn't fail any of my check rides.
Great video, but what is the procedure to follow if you can't takeoff by the clearance void time ? Should I have told that fss staff on the phone while I was talking to him that I would never safely get airborne in 4 minutes ?
You could mention it to the FSS guy but he couldn't do anything about the time ATC gave him or care less probably. lol. I would have just cranked up the plane, done everything normally and RIGHT before I was ready to take off I would have called FSS back on my phone and just sat there with the engine running that sucks to do but it is the safest option.
I'm not sure why all the talk about a 4 min release its very common here in the NE to get such. I prefer to be in the plane and running when/if I need to call for clearance. Great job, great video.
All you have to tell the controller, clearance delivery or FSS you can depart VFR and you will not get a void time. Most of the time general aviation IFR flying is at the least Min VFR conditions. So dont panic and just say "I can depart VFR"
The shortened clearance time was an attempt by ATC to promote a 'go VFR flight' and leave the IFR alone during such good weather. Their case load is usually full enough already.
+Valerie Robison Hi, Valerie! Are you a pilot? I see you have a headset on in your profile picture, so I'm assuming you are. If so, what cert(s)/license(s)/endorsement(s) do you have?
Who cares, it's their job! They work for us!! They expect them to be in the plane holding short when they call for a clearance? 4min is just not enough time. I would be offended if they have me a 4min CVT.
Chad Smith So said the slave driver to the overworked and under appreciated worker. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE looks for better ways of doing things. It's called 'Progress'. Yea, I know. Some would rather live in caves and eat raw meat like our cave dwelling ancestors did. Tough luck. YOU, that strives for that sort of life, is the one that is out of step with reality and not everyone else...
It could be departure control was just trying to work them in. Even though it's a nice day there could have been a surge of airline traffic arriving/departing soon so they wanted to at least try to get them out sooner rather than later. I wouldn't be insulted and worst case Jason's student could have just said thanks for trying to get us out so soon but unable and then asked for something later. Personally I would be hard pressed to get started, get the GPS programmed, and be ready to fly the departure unless it was something I'm familiar with.
Hey Jason, I really appreciate this video really helped to clear up some of the stuff i am learning in IFR class now. Do you have a video on operating IFR in uncontrolled airspace?
Why would/did they give you only 4 minutes? If they can spare pilots a few minutes, then they should be more accurate in the time they give. I agree that we shouldn't be rushed to meet the takeoff time, but still....
It depends on how you pick up your clearance. In this video we were at a non towered field and we contacted FSS and obtained our clearance from them. They gave us a "Void" time. This is the time that we need to be in the air. If we are not able to get off before the "Void" time we would have contacted FSS and requested a new Void time.
For a VFR day, why can't they let you file through FSS, not require a void time, and then contact the controlling agency once airborne? Wow, 4 minutes void. My engine wouldn't even be warmed up! Nice videos, and appreciate your work. I realize this is a 4 year old video but I'm working on my instrument ticket........
You could do that for a VFR day. You can always "file" through FSS over the phone. A void time is required when you "pick up" the IFR clearance through FSS because ATC is blocking off the airspace above that airport and departure routes just for you, as if it was under heavy fog. They do this because you are not on their radar scope yet and they can't see exactly where you are. Also, even if the day is 100% VFR you can still file IFR and then it's up ATC to separate you from other IFR aircraft and give you radar flight following coverage and help you spot VFR traffic.
4 minutes is not realistic. FSS would not normally do that. As a radar approach controller back in the stone age. I have issued thousands of releases through FSS. Usually, if I could I would give the pilot a 15 minute window. Released at "time" void at "time."
That rush to takeoff is an accident waiting to happen. Unless the airplane is running, holding short of the runway, and all checklists are done, a wise pilot would decline the clearance and try again when ready for an immediate departure. I always wait until holding short to call for my clearance. That is what the controllers are expecting.
Thats what the pilots do at my local airport. Since its close to a major class B airport any IFR flights to the west in the middle of the day get shortened times. So they file IFR with the engine already running lol
400’AGL is when turns to headings are made unless you are following an ODP. You need to be at minimum 35’AGL at departure end of runway and making 200’/nm as min climb gradient.
That was a HORRIBLE answer to the question asked, although important information. The answer to your question in short form is yes. Out of 0J8, the clearance is to the DADES intersection, climb and maintain 3000, expect 5000 10 minutes after departure, then a heading of 140 because you’re entering controlled airspace at that point. DADES sits just on the inside of the Class B for KTPA. If you’re at 5000 like you’ve been cleared, you’re good to go. So if you enter the Class B (AFTER YOU’VE BEEN CLEARED INTO THE BRAVO) at a 140 heading, you’ve done what your clearance is assigned as. You can’t maintain 140 to DADES from 0J8 as DADES is on a 176 heading from the airport... 0J8 is in Archer (a “suburb” of Gainesville, FL), so the direction from KGNV-KSPG should tell you all you need. (189°) Albeit two years later, I hope this answers your questions.
The FSS guy relaying the clearance should have given them a "report no later than"-time.The weather is looking very good, so that's probably why he did not bother. The biggest concern is that they could have entered controlled airspace (if operating in IMC, and therefore violated FAR 91.173). (FAA Airman's Information Manual 5-2-6)
No. In the USA if the ATC tower is open you should contact the tower at the airport to pick up your IFR clearance... If it's class D airport under some busy airspace or something the tower controller will coordinate that with the other ATCs.
Why do all the clearances I see on videos like this one, have a stepped climb 10 min after departure, irrespective of the final altitude? What is so special about 10 min and why make you level out to then start climbing again??
4 min ??? Noo way, even if the engine had been previously started and is already warm up, 4 min is the time that will take you to do your run up check list ...
Vengngoun Kim if you are not airborne by the given time, your clearance is no longer valid. You will need to receive a clearance again by either the FSS or by ATC if you can reach them.
I do have to say you should use the correct phraseology, it's clearance void time, not void if not off by time. Say the correct words first then explain it. Great video though.
I am saying this because I am an En Route controller, and I issue these clearances to flight service all day, you should always listen to your void time. There's a reason for it. You should be given a clearance void if not off by, but you should also be given a if not off by xxxx advise ATC not later than xxxx of intentions. They will issue a new relase, possibly with different instructions, because the traffic in the air obviously keeps moving. Don't be like this guy and think "oh it's okay if we are a little late". You might be this time. But maybe not next time. TAKE YOUR TIME, YES, don't pit safety aside to make the void, but let them know your not going to make it and get a new release.
I was always taught to call close to the hold short line, everything ready
You sir, are one terrific flight instructor. I would have killed to have had you as my instructor instead of the poor ones I struggled with. Your students are so fortunate to have you. All the best and really love the videos.
When the weather is clear, like in the video, ATC does not like to give void times because it interferes with the traffic flow. If the weather were 300-1, ATC would not have a problem with that. Remember, an aircraft operating IFR is provided separation services from all traffic. Since 08J is an uncontrolled airfield, ATC cannot allow any other traffic to make approaches until either the IFR aircraft has declared airborne or the void time has expired. ATC also has to make allowances for the departure corridor, as well. Void times can be up to 30 minutes, but ATC will not like to make a hole in their airspace for 30 minutes. Imagine having to leave the back way out of your neighborhood when you go to work because you are told some guy may or may not block your usual path but we won't know until he tells us he is clear.
Love the 4 minute void time. They're expecting miracles.
I have received 2 minute releases from NY Tracon at Lincoln Park (N07).
coma13794 Wow! I guess they expect you in the plane and all ready to go, I guess.
So have I (out of N07). You need to call once the run up is done, that's really the only way.
Jason
You are a great instructor. Great job and Stay Safe.
Thanks for the kind words!
@@MzeroAFlightTraining No joke! LOL my first instructor was in the Marines and this was at ERAU... So he was a hard core stickler for perfect on procedures and communication AND at one of the more "airline procedure" type of flight schools for getting a PPL. It made me a better pilot though I guess and I didn't fail any of my check rides.
Excellent video, very informative. I would have never thought of ifr from an uncontrolled airport. Thanks for posting.
Very useful! Most training material is pretty dry on the subject - it's great to see real-life examples. Thanks for making this video.
As always enjoyable educational video. Even knowing what you are describing good to refresh. Well done!
Great video, but what is the procedure to follow if you can't takeoff by the clearance void time ? Should I have told that fss staff on the phone while I was talking to him that I would never safely get airborne in 4 minutes ?
You could mention it to the FSS guy but he couldn't do anything about the time ATC gave him or care less probably. lol. I would have just cranked up the plane, done everything normally and RIGHT before I was ready to take off I would have called FSS back on my phone and just sat there with the engine running that sucks to do but it is the safest option.
I've done this same thing but we were sitting in the run up area complete checklist & run up ready to go.
Thank you Jason, very helpful and informative.
Wow, I soloed at Flyying 10 back in 1985!
Small world! Thanks for watching!
I'm not sure why all the talk about a 4 min release its very common here in the NE to get such. I prefer to be in the plane and running when/if I need to call for clearance. Great job, great video.
Im so clear after watched this vid, thanks
I think Tim did a great job! :)
All you have to tell the controller, clearance delivery or FSS you can depart VFR and you will not get a void time. Most of the time general aviation IFR flying is at the least Min VFR conditions. So dont panic and just say "I can depart VFR"
The shortened clearance time was an attempt by ATC to promote a 'go VFR flight' and leave the IFR alone during such good weather. Their case load is usually full enough already.
Ah, that would make sense.
+Valerie Robison
Hi, Valerie! Are you a pilot? I see you have a headset on in your profile picture, so I'm assuming you are. If so, what cert(s)/license(s)/endorsement(s) do you have?
Who cares, it's their job! They work for us!! They expect them to be in the plane holding short when they call for a clearance? 4min is just not enough time. I would be offended if they have me a 4min CVT.
Chad Smith So said the slave driver to the overworked and under appreciated worker. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE looks for better ways of doing things. It's called 'Progress'. Yea, I know. Some would rather live in caves and eat raw meat like our cave dwelling ancestors did. Tough luck. YOU, that strives for that sort of life, is the one that is out of step with reality and not everyone else...
It could be departure control was just trying to work them in. Even though it's a nice day there could have been a surge of airline traffic arriving/departing soon so they wanted to at least try to get them out sooner rather than later. I wouldn't be insulted and worst case Jason's student could have just said thanks for trying to get us out so soon but unable and then asked for something later. Personally I would be hard pressed to get started, get the GPS programmed, and be ready to fly the departure unless it was something I'm familiar with.
Hey Jason, I really appreciate this video really helped to clear up some of the stuff i am learning in IFR class now. Do you have a video on operating IFR in uncontrolled airspace?
great ifr training video.
Why would/did they give you only 4 minutes? If they can spare pilots a few minutes, then they should be more accurate in the time they give. I agree that we shouldn't be rushed to meet the takeoff time, but still....
Very helpful, Thank you.
Great video as always, but did you record the intro in the airport bathroom? lol!
Can they give you a "Hold for release"? If so, they call you or you call them? Stay on the line?
It depends on how you pick up your clearance. In this video we were at a non towered field and we contacted FSS and obtained our clearance from them. They gave us a "Void" time. This is the time that we need to be in the air. If we are not able to get off before the "Void" time we would have contacted FSS and requested a new Void time.
@@MzeroAFlightTraining thanks for the reply! Love your videos.
Phone numbers for ARTCCs and other "major" TRACONs are listed in a section of the A/FD.
These Days you should have an Headset with Cable to CellPhone to Pickup Clearance like via the radio
For a VFR day, why can't they let you file through FSS, not require a void time, and then contact the controlling agency once airborne? Wow, 4 minutes void. My engine wouldn't even be warmed up! Nice videos, and appreciate your work. I realize this is a 4 year old video but I'm working on my instrument ticket........
You could do that for a VFR day. You can always "file" through FSS over the phone. A void time is required when you "pick up" the IFR clearance through FSS because ATC is blocking off the airspace above that airport and departure routes just for you, as if it was under heavy fog. They do this because you are not on their radar scope yet and they can't see exactly where you are.
Also, even if the day is 100% VFR you can still file IFR and then it's up ATC to separate you from other IFR aircraft and give you radar flight following coverage and help you spot VFR traffic.
if your take of is late will the tower let them know
4 minutes is not realistic. FSS would not normally do that. As a radar approach controller back in the stone age. I have issued thousands of releases through FSS. Usually, if I could I would give the pilot a 15 minute window. Released at "time" void at "time."
How can they only give you 4 minutes to get ready? Lmfao
That rush to takeoff is an accident waiting to happen.
Unless the airplane is running, holding short of the runway, and all checklists are done, a wise pilot would decline the clearance and try again when ready for an immediate departure.
I always wait until holding short to call for my clearance. That is what the controllers are expecting.
Thats what the pilots do at my local airport. Since its close to a major class B airport any IFR flights to the west in the middle of the day get shortened times. So they file IFR with the engine already running lol
When he gave the heading of 140 in controlled airspace, when is that heading used during the flight?
400’AGL is when turns to headings are made unless you are following an ODP. You need to be at minimum 35’AGL at departure end of runway and making 200’/nm as min climb gradient.
That was a HORRIBLE answer to the question asked, although important information. The answer to your question in short form is yes. Out of 0J8, the clearance is to the DADES intersection, climb and maintain 3000, expect 5000 10 minutes after departure, then a heading of 140 because you’re entering controlled airspace at that point. DADES sits just on the inside of the Class B for KTPA. If you’re at 5000 like you’ve been cleared, you’re good to go. So if you enter the Class B (AFTER YOU’VE BEEN CLEARED INTO THE BRAVO) at a 140 heading, you’ve done what your clearance is assigned as. You can’t maintain 140 to DADES from 0J8 as DADES is on a 176 heading from the airport... 0J8 is in Archer (a “suburb” of Gainesville, FL), so the direction from KGNV-KSPG should tell you all you need. (189°)
Albeit two years later, I hope this answers your questions.
Haha yes, I have my cfii now
@@KSCPERFECT Beautiful! Congratulations to you.
@@matthewblackwell8848 thanks
excellent
Wasn't that illegal if you weren't off at 1709Z?
The FSS guy relaying the clearance should have given them a "report no later than"-time.The weather is looking very good, so that's probably why he did not bother.
The biggest concern is that they could have entered controlled airspace (if operating in IMC, and therefore violated FAR 91.173).
(FAA Airman's Information Manual 5-2-6)
Just want to clarify if we can do this even at a towered airport ?
No. In the USA if the ATC tower is open you should contact the tower at the airport to pick up your IFR clearance... If it's class D airport under some busy airspace or something the tower controller will coordinate that with the other ATCs.
Why do all the clearances I see on videos like this one, have a stepped climb 10 min after departure, irrespective of the final altitude? What is so special about 10 min and why make you level out to then start climbing again??
For lost commo, if you lift off and can't reach anyone ATC has time to clear more space.
4 min ??? Noo way, even if the engine had been previously started and is already warm up, 4 min is the time that will take you to do your run up check list ...
what do you mean by clearance void ?
Vengngoun Kim if you are not airborne by the given time, your clearance is no longer valid. You will need to receive a clearance again by either the FSS or by ATC if you can reach them.
have you ever flown to ohare .or Kennedy
I really prefer to talk to a living person. Someday that option will probably go away.
CLEARANCE VOID TIME
I do have to say you should use the correct phraseology, it's clearance void time, not void if not off by time. Say the correct words first then explain it. Great video though.
do you know how to use a microphone properly? I would never sit in the plane with you, if your flying is like using a mic ... ;)