Stop Disrespecting Fantasy!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- The genre we all know and love suffers from academic snobbery. Will Tolkien and the lord of the rings ever get the love it deserves? Let's talk about it!
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To everyone saying "Tolkien did not like allegory!" Look up the full quote! Here it is:
“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history - true or feigned- with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”
He is drawing a very fine line, but yes, his works do reflect his real-life experiences and he is okay with you applying it to your own as well. He took great effort to make that the case. He just did not want direct specific allegory within his works.
"Sometimes you get the best light from a burning bridge."
No jk Rowling has gone off the deep end and gone nuts
Pleeeeeeeeeease. Pronounce JK Rowlings name properly next time. Its pronounced ROLLING. K Thanks.
where did you get the picture at 1:53?
If you have no desire to be on the otherside of that bridge. Then who cares if it burns.
Teachers: "Keep in mind we will not be accepting Game of Thrones as a related text for this assignment. Keep the magic out of it kids."
Students: "You've been making us study Macbeth for months and it has literal magical witches in it."
*angry face*
Lol I made my assignment on a GoT last year and got a 10. Some teachers must be weird...
@@infjelphabasupporter8416 10 out of 10 or 10 out of 100
@@ryanheinrichs3704 out of 10. But then she almost made me fail the subject so idk she was weird.
Decades ago, when I was given Macbeth to study at school, I was delighted by it because I loved science fiction. It featured a full on time travel paradox!
@@paulbeardsley4095 what Macbeth did you read
“All fiction is fantasy.” -Neil Gaiman. Beyond a small pocket of historically accurate stories this is pretty true...🤷🏼♀️
Gene Wolfe also said "All novels are fantasies. Some are just more honest about it."
I mean Shakespeare was pop-culture, written for the masses. Dickens' stories were pop-culture, mass appeal stories at the time too. Plenty of "classic literature" we study in college was just popular fiction of the time. The whole "I only read/write real books etc." is just a way for insecure people to feel better about themselves.
I read what I like. And right now, that's Warhammer 40k novels.
Like, I dont get people like this. Neil Gaiman is one of the most respected authors of our time and didnt he write American Gods (A FANTASY!!!!)
If ya made it up, it's a fanstasy.
@Poppylist Party ...that is born from author fantasy.
@Poppylist Party You're missing the point here. It's not about how to label genres, Gaiman is merely pointing out the hypocrisy behind being dismissive of fantasy when all fiction is technically fantasy (in the sense that it is made up i.e. the dictionary meaning of the word as opposed to fantasy as a genre title).
quoting Ursula Le Guin:
“Those who dislike fantasy are very often equally bored or repelled by science. They don’t like either hobbits, or quasars; they don’t feel at home with them; they don’t want complexities, remoteness. If there is any such connection, I’ll bet that it is basically an aesthetic one.”
"Fantasy is not antirational, but pararational; not realistic but surrealistic, a heightening of reality. In Freud's terminology, it employs primary not secondary process thinking. It employs archetypes which, as Jung warned us, are dangerous things. Fantasy is nearer to poetry, to mysticism, and to insanity than naturalistic fiction is. It is a wilderness, and those who go there should not feel too safe"
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisoned by the enemy, don’t we consider it his duty to escape?The moneylenders, the knownothings, the authoritarians have us all in prison. If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we’re partisans of liberty, then it’s our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!” ~Ursula K. LeGuin, paraphrasing J.R.R. Tolkien
"People who deny the existence of dragons are often eaten by dragons. From within".
Ursula LeGuin was the BOSS
Amazing quote.
Thanks for putting this here. It was the first thing that came to mind when I started watching this video. LeGuin was an amazing author and person. I miss her so much.
Such an amazing quote!
I haven't heard this before. I like it.
That said, aren't all books and stories and movies (and many games) escapist? Whether we escape our reality to find ourselves in a different place and time in this world, or if we go to different planet or world, it's all escapism, and it's wonderful. Only problem is that the ones who only escape in stories of this world think more highly of theirs because it's "realistic". Which is basically saying "I have poor imagination". XD
"Fantasy is hardly an escape from reality. It is a way of understanding it." Lloyd Alexander
So true. We use it to recontextualize reality. Stepping outside the box so you can see a different angle, a better view.
Who the hell is Lloyd Alexander?
@@jjackomin If you are truly curious, Lloyd Alexander is author of the award winning Chronicles of Prydain and about 25 other MiddleGrade/YA fantasy books. The Disney animated movie "The Black Caudron" was based on this series. He wrote from the 60s to the 2000s and sadly passed away in 2007 and is still one of the best gateway drug authors for introducing young people to fantasy.
Lloyd Alexander is my hero, and the Prydain Chronicles are the most important books in my life. He was such a dear, funny, kind and thoughtful person. I’m honored to be named for him.
@@literaterose6731His works are so deeply human, even when goofy and fantastical. I will likely never get a tattoo, but if I did it would be the final lines of The Foundling: “At the end of knowledge, wisdom begins, and at the end of wisdom there is not grief, but hope.”
[I’d include the whole paragraph before, including the lines “He learned that the lives of men are short and filled with pain, yet each one a priceless treasure, whether it be that of a prince or a pig-keeper. And, at last, the book taught him that while nothing was certain, all was possible” but that’d be too long.]
I know you don't like C.S. Lewis, but one of my favorite quotes of all time is, "When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” What he was talking about when he said this was about adults who say you have to be something or act a certain way to be an adult are not actually being adults themselves.
The context of this quote is even more beautiful and thought provoking. He grew up in a strict religious household where verses from the bible were quoted to him such as, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (KJV)." To grow up he had to give up his love of fantasy. This experience turned him away from his faith until people like Tolkien who loved fantasy and imagination came into his life and showed him that loving something was just a greater reflection of the love his faith brought.
Benjamin, I love this. I've been "discussing" with a self-proclaimed "preacher," and he feels the same way as Lewis' parents. This guy believes Harry Potter is real, so he has problems beyond just disliking fantasy. I'd like to quote your comment to him and to others, should I run across them. May I do so? Thanks Theresa
@@tramseyer Sure that would be fine :). I've been a Christian my whole life and grown up among other Christians, and there are some odd views among a minority of them when it comes to fantasy. Some I have met are fanatical about it.
Ironically, my love of fantasy comes primarily from Christians. My grandmother introduced me to fantasy novels, an Evangelist who was a guest speaker at the Christian college I attended encouraged me to read Harry Potter, and a friends of mine got me into D&D and MtG. There's a beauty in the fantasy genre that mirrors many aspects of my faith, and has helped my faith to grow.
so true
One of my favorite Lewis quotes. I also love "But someday you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again," from his dedication in The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe.
I also agree about what you said regarding Christianity and fantasy. I think part of the draw to fantasy is that it has the capacity to speak to spiritual truths in ways many other genres either won't or can't.
People who self-consciously avoid doing things they like because they think it's childish are so less mature than people who can say "I do it because I enjoy it and that's that"
Anyone that thinks fantasy isn't worth studying must never have heard of The Illiad, The Odyssey, or Beowulf.
Exactly!!
And the bible. It's all one big fantasy. :P People just take it way too seriously.
Gilgamesh!
Well that's mythology not fantasy (party pooper mode on :-p )
Or the TITUS trilogy
In the words of Brandon Sanderson on fantasy in literature...
"Science Fiction and Fantasy can do everything any other genre can do. You will find science fiction and fantasy
with the literary styling of great classic literatures. You read Ursala Le Guin, or you read Gene Wolfe.
You read some of these people who are known for their literary styling. You'll find a romance in SFF
that can be every bit as powerful as the best romantic fiction. You'll find mystery, you'll find adventure
These genres are not bounded by what they can contain, in fact they are the only genres that are not bounded by what
they contain. The reason I write, read and love SFF is because it's the genre where you can do all of this stuff.
You can be literary, you can have action adventure, you can do all of these things, plus you can have dragons.
So why not? 'Why not?' is my opinion. Why not write the genre where you can include anything that you want to,
where you can be whatever you want to be."
Do you have a link for that quote. I haven't seen that one from him before and couldn't find it through a quick (and admittedly lazy) Google search.
@@jonathonwhitington402 Sure! I transcribed the quote from one of his youtube lectures.
Watch "Brandon Sanderson - 318R - #1 (Course Overview)
" and he'll say it a little after 18 minutes and 30 seconds into the video.
@@HysteriaDuzz ahhh. I've actually watched that. Guess I just forgot about it. Thanks.
All fiction is fantasy.
Just take Mistborn second era. It has everything from magic and old west gunfights to politics.
I wrote my thesis on this. I hate the degrading of the fantasy genre. It is so uncalled for
Sarah Jørgensen writing your thesis on fantasy not deserving respect is fucking awesome!!! good shit!!!
i'm doing something similar rn got any good sources i should check out?
Can I read it?
Can you like ..... post a link to your thesis?
Mr. Greene please interview Ms. Jørgensen on this subject!!?
C.S. Lewis said it best:
“When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty, I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.”
Folks like Rowling, Goodkind, & others need to grow up if y’ask me.
I forgot he said that, thanks!
@@barryallen2240 👍👍
Omg that quote is mind blowing
I love that…personally I honestly don’t care what anyone else thinks of the books I read…life’s too short and there are so many good books…and I want something that stretches my imagination and takes me away from day to day worries…😊
it's all fiction, why not let people explore the limits of that fiction.
I was literally just reading an interview Terry Pratchett did talking about why he writes fantasy and my favourite part, when explaining that Moby Dick is essentially a fantasy too, was this quote - 'Fantasy is the plasma in which other genres swim'. Also, you can almost feel his irritation coming off the page (screen) when the interviewer asks him why, since he's good enough to write whatever he wants, he writes fantasy. : )
JACQUELINE KIRK, he is a perfect example of how fantasy can look at the real world and do anything others can do plus more. Love his books.
Can you link this interview
If I was him and someone asked me that, I would be saying "I have to be as good as I am to write fantasy!"
Yep. All fiction has varying degrees of fantasy.
I think terry pratchett might be one of the most brilliant (fantasy) writers ever. Using the "fantastically unbelievable" medium of fantasy to hold a mirror up to our fantastically silly and irrational society is such a cool idea and he makes it work so well.
Sooo... They're saying Shakespeare doesn't have literary value? He did after all write fantasy...
A Midsummer Night's Dream has a straight fairy lord
You don’t burst into monologues of iambic pentameter in real life? Can’t relate. 😂
@@Pajali Oh, I do that almost as often as I burst into song.
@@jaidenedelman3796 don't forget the witches in Macbeth... I love Macbeth.
@@jaidenedelman3796 Not to mention The Tempest straight up deals with wizards and demons
I go to a university where there is an entire class on Tolkien
*Everyone wants to know your location*
*pulls a gun* where is it?!?!
@@r.w.chambers9969 The Citadel had one awhile ago, dont know if they still do. Plus its Robert Jordan's alma mater
University of Washington has this. Really cool, want to take the class but haven't been able to fit it in my schedule.
I took a class for a semester in high school called (translated), "The Lord of the Rings and Philosophy". For one of my high school maturation exams I took Psychology/Philosophy and the question that came was, "How does the One Ring in LOTR corrupt the mortal and immortal beings and why was Tom Bombadil not affected by The Ring?"
I had a cool philosophy teacher.
Daniel Got a Green Screen: The Movie
Greene screen
@@samuelhansson8285 underrated comment.
I once had a *creative writing* teacher push back on me submitting assignments with fantasy elements. She did *everything she could* to try and dissuade me from writing fantasy, because it's not "real literature". So for one assignment, I did as she asked, writing two short stories, one a literary fiction and the other a fantasy. The literary fiction got an A from her, and a D from my in-class writing group, whereas my fantasy got a C from her and an A from the group. She was *flummoxed* because she couldn't wrap her head around my writing group raving over the fantasy short and then talking about how bored the literary fiction made them, and how obvious it was in the writing that I was just getting it out because I had to. I used it as proof to threaten to go to the Dean about her trying to fail me if she didn't knock it off with grading anything fantastical lower (mine and others) simply for the fact that they were fantastic. She *literally* tried to get me to "literary-ify" a short story about a mage in hiding in a world where magic is persecuted befriending the anti-magic paladin who finds her, eventually ending in him letting her escape... into a story about a Jewish person in WW2 befriending a Nazi who lets the Jewish person go when they find out. Because that would make it more "realistic" and "better, because people would connect with it more". I told her, paraphrasing and without the swears, to "go fuck yourself. I had family in the camps. I'm not doing that."
I'd like to ask that professor, "What is wrong with you?"
I find it much easier to connect with fantastical stories than realistic ones. Some might say that magic and spaceships are trinkets that make a story more digestible, therefore fantastical elements are a cheap trick. Well, I'd say, that's the point, fun elements make stories easier to get immersed into, therefore you can tell virtually any story to a wider audience. It may be tragic as all hell and the ride would still be awesome. Realistic story like the one you've described? Why would I read it in my spare time? I have enough stress with my life, and another WW2 story sounds like an extremely tedious delve. But sprinkle it with a bit of fairy powder and I might give it a go.
That being said, I immensely respect writers that are able to write an immersive realistic story, like Elena Ferrante, or Caleb Carr. Takes a lot of mastery, indeed. Though I wonder if I only think that because they write about times and places so foreign to me that it's basically the same as fantasy...
The Iliad, the Odyssey, Shahnameh, Beowulf, Dr. Faustus, the Faerie Queene, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, all of the Arthurian literature for that matter, A Midsummer Night's Dream, Hamlet, Macbeth, Rime of the Ancient Mariner, etc, etc, this list can go on forever.
The point is, literature is almost entirely founded on fantasy, and if there are "academics" who don't get that, they should probably have their degrees reexamined because they clearly have failed to study all of the major works required for their field.
The Ancient and Medieval eras believed in divine intervention as a literal objective reality of the universe, that's not fantasy. Just because fantasy "lit" is superficially aping something accepted by the establishment doesn't mean the two are in any way comparable.
Greek mythos is respected. Why not fantasy?? Great points in this video.
My husband and I have this discussion from time to time. As he puts it, Greek mythology is basically a collection of superhero stories. However, we can still seriously study them because they are 3000 year old Classics that didn't get lost to antiquity. Yeah, but dragons are right out!
B O O K M A R K B E T H they are fundamentally different fantasy in our culture has the sense of escape from reality for the purpose of entertainment and seeding ideas. Greek mythos has the fact that it was orated before being written meaning it was spread by speaking and thus didn’t have a single origin from one person but from multiple people that spoke the language which means the story already had multiple people accept it and it’s meaning before making its way to modern day study. The purpose of the mythos was also to setup religious beliefs and most people accept that not every fantasy book is out there to make religion out of the interpretation of current events the way the Greek mythos seems to be interpreted today.
@@zondfinn2100 Fantasy might seem like an escape from reality if you're barely reading it...
Fredward and The Bear could you elaborate on that because as I read your comment I don’t understand, how do you enjoy a novel or get into it if your constantly saying it’s not real? As in how does one connect to the characters if they simply write them off as fictional people.
@@zondfinn2100 You stated in your initial comment that fantasy is an escape from reality for entertainment purposes. I was simply stating that it's almost always more than that. It's entertaining, yes, but it's generally also a comment on reality.
Rando: Fantasy is not real literature
Me: *Throws LotR at their head*
Hey, you might damage the book.
@@Voxdalian Yeah it might have sprinkles of blood and bone splinters on it afterwards.
Me: Follows up with Midsummer night's dream
I'd throw some R Scott Bakker at them as well.
@@Voxdalian i legit almost added that XD but figured it would ruin the joke.
When I studied literature in university, we pretended the entire fantasy genre didn't exist for 4 years straight
What?! We studied a course with the title "The Modern Fairy Tale" for an entire year - and it was MAINLY about the fantasy genre. Back in 2001-2002. In Iași, Romania.
Wow, that is depressing!
@Najawin but why are only books that do "that sort of thing" worth examining? when you deep dive into any specific book, sure, the prof choses one with a lot of literary meat to it, but when looking at the broader spectrum of literature i find it quite ridiculous to exclude any and all kind of genre fiction.
Same. Still have no idea why Shakespeare was great but noone even mentioned Tolkien when we studied the period he lived in. Because somehow, Waiting for Godot (bloody hated it) is brilliant and LoTR is not even worth mentioning.
Same here.
"I'm not a fantasy writer," the man cackled as he furiously crafted his fictional world for his fictional characters with extraordinary abilities.
"Fantasy is looked down upon"
Yes, that's correct, but have you seen Romance 😆
Danica Christin Romance is consistently the most best selling genre, year after year. Just sayin’
@@gymnastoman1 it might be bestselling, but the side eye people get who read it ... Romance is more accepted in Europe but in the US many people seem to think it's trash or just plain dirty. So "look down upon" is the right expression, even though I strongly disagree with the sentiment.
@@DanicaChristin , mhmm no.... It's considered trash in Europe too.
And for good reasons.
Used to read some a a pre teen.
Can't remember one single book that was well written.
Tried some over the years, because I enjoyed the tv shows or such, and had to put them down, cause the writing was so damn awful.
You can't compare the two.
It's not even in the same universe.
Many fantasy writers are simply exquisite writers. More and more so with time.
For "Romance" you have to look down in history, and go back to the very beginnings, or later with Jane Austen, DH Lawrence, the Bronte sisters, Edith Wharton, to find some high quality writing.
@@DanicaChristin My issue is most romance books are written badly. I do not feel the romance between the characters. I came for romance and I left unhappy.
Romance is fucking hard genre to write and most authors fail.
Making people think its trash.
As someone who has a mother that read romance books and a father who read scifi, I grew up reading both.
I majored in literature in college: both genres were equally looked down upon, but scifi & fantasy only had a little redemption because of Tolkien, but that's it. Even then it wasn't much.
As for romance, Jane Austen was the limit it seemed and many other romance were less respected.
Yes romance sells books, but it does not mean it is respected by literature snobs essentially. (Granted the past three years i have rarely read a good romance book, And YA romance is a whole other problem in itself i gave up 5 years ago)
I HATE talking to someone about what i read and hearing a change in tone when i mention *FaNTaSy* A genre that has genuinely opened my eyes and made me a more thoughtful person.
Didn't Stephen King outright say he was a Fantasy author? That even his HORROR books have fantasy elements? And that he's absolutely confused on why people can't group those two elements together? Or understand why people don't understand that you can't have horror without fantasy?
I may not like his book, or certain themes he likes to write, but i do respect him as an author. Mostly because he knows WHAT he's writting, and where it stems from.
Stephen King does not look down upon any genre
I read “Carrie” recently for the first time and I read it 100% as fantasy. He creates a whole background to telekinesis and how one gets it, similar to a magic system. It’s super fascinating.
Horror Fantasy sounds absolutely amazing to me.
stephen king literally wrote a book about how people got mad at him for writing an epic fantasy book my GODS what a king
I mean... that is his name
I'm from Norway. I had a teacher in Nordic language and literature who actually talked about A Song of Ice and Fire and The Hobbit when he discussed old Norse poems. He also told us about a guy who took his oral exam on A Game of Thrones and got an A.
There was also a national exam a few years back where students had to compare a translation of the first chapter of A Game of Thrones and «Skjelettet» ("The Skeleton"), a legend (or sagn) from the 19th century.
I don’t really feel that Fantasy is so stigmatized here. Maybe it's because we love fairytales and ancient folklore and see the genre as a continuation of that cultural heritage ... or maybe teachers just want to engage teenagers lol.
I think my country is more open-minded about this as well, despite some efforts to stigmatize it decades ago. I suppose it shows the resilience of people's appreciation for the imaginative within fiction. And that's reassuring.
I love this, I wish my teachers had this kind of awareness because as Germans we were studying the song of the Nibelungs, our national epic, which features a dragon for crying out loud, but modern fantasy is inferior nonsense and not literature, really?
I think fantasy is absolutely amazing. Being a fantasy author is one of the most amazing thing ever. Maps. Creatures. Art. Characters. Cities. I can't even describe how much fun it is and how proud I am to be a young fantasy author
This just in, in fantasy news. Im renaming my channel to "The Greene Screene Experience." Thank you, that is all.
You didn't do it. Coward.
Also....a thing being "For Kids" doesn't make bad, kids deserve well written fiction too!
There are 2 easy ways to turn kids off reading. Bad books, and books that talk down to them (there's a fair bit of overlap in the Venn diagram here).
Yes!!! Some of the best classics out there were written as children's literature.
Case and point: His Dark Materials.
Good book for kids = normal good book with a child as main character.
@@derpimusmaximus8815 One critique I have of CS Lewis is that he tells you as you're reading Narnia that you are a child (e.g. when the White Witch gathers together all kinds of creatures, some of which our parents wouldn't want us to read about).
“On Fairy Stories” is an essay by Tolkien that explains the deeper reasons for writing adult fantasy
Helpful comment gets a boost :)
I had a nice discussion about books and literature with an older customer of mine and she asked me "What are your favorite kind of books". And I told her in a massive fan of the fantasy genre, she kind of scoffed at me and asked "isn't that for kids"? After I went on and on about complex themes and psychology in my favorite works like Berserk, Hellboy, Lord of the Rings, blah blah blah, she asked me to borrow some and now she's a massive fan and continues to defend the genre. Luckily for me all of my English teachers have loved fantasy and looked at it through an academic lens.
I feel the Scorsese comment is a bit of a different situation. Scorsese wasn't so much criticizing the MCU movies for having magic in them as he was for them focusing too much on action spectacle and visual FX, and commenting that the movie industry is becoming saturated with only that genre while smaller movies struggle to get made.
And he's damn right about that. Logan and the Joker are almost the sole exceptions to this rule.
In much the same way, I dare add, that playing with fonts and ink colour is typography rather than literature.
This. That was the only part of the video I didn't agree with. He said it's not art or cinema because it has completely different goals than to be artful or to move people towards new insights or ideas. Meaningful dialogue can happen in them, but isn't the weight of the movie. Dialogue is set up to drive us towards the action of the movie that it revolves around. It's more focussed on enjoyment of action scenes than trying to be artful, so Scorsese is damn rigth indeed. Doesn't mean it can't be good, just not in an artistic way.
@@AggelosKyriou I raise you "The Winter Soldier" and "Iron Man". One's a soldier who is wondering, if he's fighting for the right thing and the other is about an arms dealer who realises what suffering he brings to others.
Those are deep and we feel for these characters. The spectacle is just the icing on top.
@@MrWhangdoodles the point isn't that Marvel movies can never have art in them, but that art is not their goal, entertainment is. Which, if you look at the general catalogue of popcorn action films, seems to bear truth.
I honestly didn't know the fantasy genre was so frowned upon. I've been reading it for sometime and no one has ever told me they dissaprove of fantasy or that it is for children.
I guess I have been spared from these blasphamies🤣
Aww lucky you.
There are some people who frown upon it. But that is their opinion. We all have our opinions on things we do or don't like or how we feel about things right? Isn't that allowed? Let them have their opinions and you keep yours.
I love it when Daniel goes on a rant 😂
But he said "Peace" at the end lool.
Terry Goodkind is such an insufferable narcissist, with zero self-awareness. It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
It’s spelled “Shithead McFuckfingers” not “Terry Goodkind”
I’ve never read him but find people’s hatred of an author a bit weird... and maybe politically motivated?
Nutsilica: Renaissance moving comix - No it is the way he destroyed his own series and wrote the worst series ending book that was just 90% review of the series and 10% written by a kindergartener. Just terrible before anything he says irl. That and copying Robert Jordan while claiming over and over he wasn’t.
@@MicahMicahel Well he is a Ayn Rand fan, so narcissism and selfishness is an important component of his personal ideology. I don't share his political views, but the same could be said for many other authors whom I still respect and whose works I still enjoy. Goodkind, though. The dude is just an asshole and a bad writer, regardless of his politics.
@@uglydayfif but I look on Goodreads and his books are highly rated. I'm not saying I want to read one of his books. I don't. I'm just saying there is something suspicious about the hate he gets.
I'm not sure what it is. The reasons you give don't explain it because he seems to have a lot of books written.
My father: "Fantasy isn't high literature"
Also my father: *Goethe's Faust is a masterpiece*
You mean the one where they get a youth potion from a witch, have a magical dream sequence riddled with orgies and one of the characters is a devil-figure?
I swear, every time Rowling has said anything the last few years I lose a bit more respect for her. It sucks, but holy crap is she disconnected from the real world.
So right. I 💯 agree
TH-camrs: Do jumpcuts
Daniel: *hold my greenscreen*
😂😂😂
Greene screen*
Top Box Office Movies All-Time :
1. Avengers: Endgame
2. Avatar
4. The Force Awakens
5. Avengers: Infinity War
Top Movie Series All-Time :
1. MCU
2. Star Wars
3. Harry Potter
5. Lord of the Rings
Top 10 Most Pirated TV shows by year :
2019 - 8 Fantasies
2018 - 8 Fantasies
2017 - 6 Fantasies
2016 - 7 Fantasies
2015 - 6 Fantasies
Of the 10 best selling books of all time, 8 of them are fantasy. Top 20 streamed shows in 2019, 11 are fantasy. 10 highest selling comic series of all-time, 7 of them are Fantasy. I don't know why anyone would look down at Fantasy, it is straight bank.
If I follow this logic, are MacDOnald's hamburgers better food than food from top restaurants, simply because it sells more brgers everyday ?
@@cyrlav7748 depends, what does McDonalds make per Hamburger? I never said anything about actual quality did I? What I said is THE MASSES enjoy the shit out of it, and there is MAD money there. There are not almost 40,000 McDonalds worldwide because they are losing money... the ONLY person looking down on McDonalds is Subway.
cyr lav the difference is that one paperback costs the same as another. So the reason a gourmet burger is not as popular as McDonald’s is because its more expensive therefore less people try it and can regularly afford it. There isnt a price change in books from different genres.
@@WJLMAROON sure, but my point concerns more the link between commercial success and artistic quality. If, hypothetically, a gourmet meal cost the same as a greasy, sugar-loaded fast-food product, and the latter sold more, would it be a measurement of its success and a good reason to blame cooks for teaching their apprentices how to make goumets meals rather than burgers and milkshakes and teaching them how to make a good difference ? (provided people would buy comfortable food rather than sane meals)
Because Marvel movies are so successful, should we consider they deserve artistic recognition ? (reference to Scorsese comments, which I agree with)
While this is nitpicking, you're not using figures adjusted for inflation in your top box office rankings. That changes it to:
1. Gone With The Wind
2. Avatar
3. Titanic
4. Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope
5. Avengers - Endgame
6. The Sound Of Music
7. E.T.
8. The Ten Commandments
9. Doctor Zhivago
10. Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens
Like I say, it's nitpicking because half of those are science fiction/fantasy, 2 or 3 are historical fiction, 1 is a Biblical epic (so, you know, fantasy. I might cut myself on all that edge, oooh) and the last a musical. Interesting point, though, that Doctor Zhivago and The Sound Of Music were both released in '65. Zhivago was nominated for 10 Oscars, and won 5. The 5 it didn't win, The Sound Of Music did.
I really like all those "deep, complex, human, etc" stuff in stories I read, just prefer them in new worlds with magic; dragons preferred but not required.
Thank you, Daniel. That attitude among college English departments is one reason I was not an English major.
"It's got elves so it's STUPID!" That moment right there made me subscribe. That was legit hilarious
You know literary crowd hates fantasy when they have to invent the term "magical realism" to distance authors from fantasy.
though magical realism has been a description since the mid 1920s
@@outcast491 Fantasy has been a description since 1850's, older if you take fairy tales. Magical realism was first applied to painting, later authors influenced by the ideas of the painters took the term too.
But mágical. Realism havent relation with the fantasy xD too defirente genere
@@PeseudoAnacletoMagical Realism is a style of fiction that uses conventions of myths fables legends and allegory set in the real world using magical and fantastical elements. Very different genre's; I take it that makes Harry Potter and American Gods magical realism.
@@hannahelisabeth9323 eeeh no, that make him a fantasy, the mágical realism imped the de fantasia thing are more verosímil for the character that the Real conceptions, in harry potterz the fantasy topic make change the diegetic World. The magic staff are the same normal as the realisting thing. Even, harry potter can be part of other genere: wonder realism.
The dark tower,lord of the rings,a song of ice and fire,the witcher etc. How are any of these for children
I was nine when I read Lord Of The Rings lol...it was pretty standard for kids my age to read it, and it was great!
@@MichaelSmith-zx5lw but that's the thing, its not necessarily meant for kids (excluding the hobbit), it's just wholesome enough for kids to also be able to read it without their parents feeling like there are inappropriate sujects breached within it, but most people I know who read it when they were a kid, have re-read it at least once since being an adult, some even do a read through every year (me, I'm part of "some people" lol)
Why mention the Witcher in the same sentence as the others. That's uncalled for.
I read Prince of Thorns when I was 14. I read "A Game of Thrones" when I was 12. I actually only read LOTR when I was 16 because the English was too tough to be enjoyable for me.
They weren't written for children but those books shaped how I see the world. As a shades of grey and opened my mind to trying to understand the bad actors in the real world and not just dismiss them as being 'evil'.
If it wasn't for LotR I would not be an avid reader at all
"The only thing fantasy does is give you more tools."
Preach, Daniel! Preach!
Wow.. to hear you praise Lotr for something other than “being the father of fantasy” or something like that was amazing. Herring you actually talk about it’s story elements and historical ties other than it being an influential series was great. Great video!
PS I hope to see you at JordanCon
Horror-loving metal-head, avid gamer and comics nerd. There are few things I love that haven't been sneered at, condescended to, or demonized in my 36 years. For all that, though, it's getting better. I can wear an Iron Maiden shirt or read a King novel in public without people accusing me of either worshiping or inadvertently aiding the anti-Christ (and that was in a major city!) I can wear black and talk about video games without people assuming I'm going to kill people, play D&D without people thinking I'll die a virgin, and use "Bamf!" as a verb knowing people will understand. Yes, genre fans still get some disrespect, and we need to work on that, but we should also be grateful. This is the best ever time to be a geek.
Also, we need to reflect on our geek culture and make it more inclusive and inviting.We are not far removed from Gamergate, flame wars about Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm, or the "Batwoman can't get married to a woman" bs. We still kvetch about Mary Sue Rey while saying that Conan (one of THE best/worst examples of the trope) deserves more respect. We are only starting to get respect, but we are also only starting to show it. If we want better, we need to also be better while we work for better.
Well said
Completely agree with you! I wrote my thesis for college on Tolkien, Martin and Norse mythology and was lucky enough to have a thesis supervisor that was incredibly supportive so hopefully academic attitudes are changing.
Man I'm sorry you had a prof like that. I have used tons of fantasy works in my classes, and students often get a kick out of it.
Same here. I even wrote my thesis on a comics.
Man same here. This is one of those cases where I’m glad I am the teacher, so I pick the books
It’s funny how anal some literature profs get about this stuff, when I had a history prof who talked about SEVERAL video games (and I’m not talking recent indie titles, I’m talking AAA JRPGs) as a reflection of the Japanese perspective on history and meditations on deep topics in general.
@@khaledassaf6356 Comics in general or some specific works?
@@kaimcdragonfist4803 I think part of it is that I teach a unified history literature class, basically a humanities course. So when we do it, i assign Hawthorne, but I also assign Lovecraft. I assign Action Comics #1, and I assign Steinbeck. I try to show how pop culture and high culture both reflect the situations of their creation. Like he said, i use LoTR for WWI and WWII. I use GRRM for modern society. And so on...
Dude someone in the plane seat next to me saw I was reading a fantasy novel, told me I shouldn’t be reading it, I should read a “real” book, fantasy rots your brain...
I wanted to do a lot more than just awkwardly laugh, like give him a good slap
So ignorant!
Someone said something similar to me on the bus, i stopped reading long enough to say "Well, i don't want to read what you're reading; looks like your brain has already rotted out of your head." Then not so subtly turned my body away from the person and went back to my book.
Fuck people man.
Hey, random plane guy I’ll never meet: fuck you. Sincerely.
No just ignorant but stupid to boot. No one gets their brain rotted by fantasy. There's some pretty dark horror out there but not even that would.
@dark zeratul Mervyn Peake
Wrote Gormenghast (Fantasy) which has garnered literary acclaim from pretty much everyone when he wrote it.
No one's going to talk down about Mervyn Peak are they?
It's the same about sci fi
People forget that George Orwell wrote 1984
No teacher, academic or anyone would ever question the Validity of 1984....1984 is sci fi lol
wow
Great rant :) I think the reason I love fantasy so much is *because* it has so much to say about humanity. Somehow contemporary issues never hit the issues as hard in my experience.
I'm so glad that when I went to college, 2001-2005 at University of Vermont, I got to take a Sci-fi and Fantasy literature class (led me to Phillip Pullman, thank GOD for that), a Gothic Novel class, and a whole class on the films of Stephen King. I think those classes are still there, and they were AMAZING.
Daniel is me when I get green screen for my birthday.
I usually never react to video's, but today I had to say something: EXACTLY! You are saying everything I am fighting for here. I am a Belgian translator and would love to translate fantasy books. During my studies as a "literary translator" we could 'not possibly translate fantasy, because that is in no way, shape or form Literature', which is absolutely ridiculous. And like you said, there are authors out there who write fantasy, but then want to be marketed as high literature, so NOWHERE will you find the word 'fantasy' in the describing of this author. What you will find is for example "magical surrealism", and what do you know, it had "magic" right there in the description, but it is not seen as "fantasy" because that could not possibly be Literature.
So I have made it my goal now to get a fantasy-translation published in a prestige translation magazine, just to prove my point!
Sorry for my rant just re-iterating what you said, I just believe you are correct, sir!
Thank you for translating books btw. I read in English nowadays but as a kid translators were like saints to me.
I love this so much. And it's so true. Anytime I try to talk about the themes in Terry Pratchett's works in a serious conversation people roll their eyes and tune out. Genre has nothing to do with deeper meanings and themes in works of literature.
K Fox, they just show their own ignorance. Terry’s masterful use of satire makes for brilliant reading, and he can make a brilliant plot that is relevant to the real world. I was lucky to have an English teacher who wasn’t an wanker and let me use terry partchetts, a song of ice & fire, and the lord of the rings for all my assignment. It was the only reason I passed.
@@hendrikscheepers4144 it could have been from Night Watch, or Feet of clay, or thud. he does refer to the boat thing a few times. Love it, and it's very true.
The 4:16 mark - so true, and so largely overlooked. The point you make here is why I don’t think you can properly adapt TLotR *without* the Scouring of the Shire: it is the heart of the book, the thematic climax of the book.
When I told my "friend" I wanted to become a fantasy writer....let's just say that it took a really long time and a lot of soliloquizing to stop feeling the shame his response put in me...
That was the first time I understood that fantasy as a genre was not as respected as I'd thought...
It took me too long to spot dan on mount doom at the start im actually ashamed. But serious note, isnt everything written outside of none fiction just a degree of fantasy? Some woman sitting with a laptop writing about two lovers one of which with an inoperable form of cancer and another woman sat at a computer writing about dragons fucking shit up are pulling from made up worlds with varying relations to reality. Dunno seems like a mute point when everything written in fiction is a writers fantasy put onto a page.
Fantasy doesn't mean imagination. It means things that are beyond belief or fantastical, usually meaning having to do with magic or magical creatures. The story about two lovers doesn't have that fantastic sense of magic. (Even though many people could argue that love in itself is fantastical and inexplicable).
This video was so so needed. It’s honestly a miracle if I can get through a single semester without one of my literature professor bashing fantasy 🤦🏼♀️
Do they think Ursula K Le Guin's works have no merit? Lol
Taken straight out of my hearth and mouth, same struggle at the university level here :) this sort of inferiority complex that my grumpy lecturers have against fantasy because "It is not academic" well FU :D
Next time you hear them bitch all ask them what they think of Shakespeare. Huge fantasy author. Academic literature is silly anyway. How some people have convinced others to pay them to read and criticize other literature for a living...oh...right.
Ask them what they think of Homer’s epic poems called the Iliad and the Odyssey, and Virgil’s Aeneid, and Ovid’s Metamorphoses, and the Epic Of Gilgamesh. That should be fun. Ovid will REALLY annoy them.
I wonder what they think about "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court"? Clearly Twain is a hack.
don't care about them disrespecting fantasy, as long as Albert Einstein said "Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world"
You can't imagine without some kinda knowledge, Yu dumbass.
I'm pretty sure my old supervisor would have frowned if I began citing fantasy literature to support my academic work. But then again, as a molecular biologist I wouldn't blame her.
It's actually insane how people look down on fantasy as childish, when some of the most well known works of literature would qualify as fantasy. Look at the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Poetic Edda for norse mythology and so on. Arthurian literature, that's all fantasy. It's especially insane when Tolkien wrote several adult fantasy stories in middle earth, and George R. R. Martin's ASOIAF novels are certainly not for kids so yeah I don't know how you can say all of fantasy is childish.
Like what's the difference between quoting the Iliad and quoting the Silmarillion in class? Both are works of literature.
Because those are old and respected. They don't respect fantasy, therefore respected things can't be fantasy. Rather than owning up to their hypocrisy, people will come up all kinds of mental gymnastics to justify why something they like totally doesn't count as the thing they claim to hate when they're exactly the same by any meaningful measure.
As a fantasy author and lover, I say to you: THANK YOU!
03:05
Daniel: wants to strongly state how valuable fantasy genre is.
Also Daniel: simultaneously uses a clearly sexual gif as background
J.K. Rowling is always based
Did Terry die right after you made this video?
"HEY, PRINCE OF THORNS!, ARE YOU F****NG FOR CHILDS?" might be my favorite part xD
Academics look down on fantasy and yet two of the historical masters of fantasy were professor at Oxford, Tolkien and Lewis. The same can be said about science fiction, a lot of people don’t consider it real literature either.
I remember a conversation on the guardian site with a guy who claimed that Gormenghast wasn't a fantasy novel
Why?
Because it's good.
I'm not sure Rowling's works are that good overall, given that they feature magical racism and blood-purism that is never resolved, or even really detested by much of the population. Nor is the existence of secret police and torture ever questioned by anyone. Seriously, set a foot wrong in that world (or don't, see Sirius Black) and you can end up in a dystopian nightmare.
her work would be good if it really features those things, your opinion on it or anyone else's is irrelevant to it, but the only reason you're questioning it is because she made you feel bad and shackled your little fantastical imaginary perfect world, that's the thing with you fantasy fans, you never live in reality
@@shakey3306 When I read fantasy it's to _escape_ that kind of s***, or at least to see that if such exists, that it will eventually get solved, unlike in reality.
His Dark Materials is my favourite fantasy series. It has multiple universes and does have a lot of parallels to real life
"When you wrote a book about f*ckin' wizards!" I lost it at that😂
"Fantasy can't be sophisticated."
JRR Tolkien, PROFESSOR at OXFORD, The Man who basically started it ALL. That is all that need be said.
Oh for... Tolkien did not basically start it all. No one did, but if we should credit anyone with starting it all, then Lord Dunsany started it all.
Except Tolkien didn't basically started it all. Not even for Howard's Conan, series that came out nearly 30 years before Tolkien's Hobbit, can we say: "he basically started it ALL". Roots of epic fantasy goes all the way to the mid of 19th century.
He rebranded it. He didn’t invent it.
@@malcomalexander9437 William Morris and George MacDonald started the fantasy genre in the mid-19th century.
When I say he started it of course I don't mean that literally. I only meant he was the most recognized for his time and is the major inspiration for a lot of writers of fantasy.
"PRINCE OF THORNS!! ARE YOU FOR F*CKING KIDS?!"
Sir, i haven't stopped laughing and it's been 15 minutes
Anandi Puritipati This was the best part of the video.
I only read the first book but I think he is *very* much for fucking kids.
Still laughing
Jorg is just like Peter Rabbit..... honest .....
It makes me want to hand the book to a child and come back a week later to see what damage has been done.
People that say that about the fantasy genre have never read The Wheel Of Time or The Malazan Book Of The Fallen
Precisely because fantasy is not limited by the rules of the physical world, it can give us stories that are the MOST emotionally true to the human experience when it's imagery is used symbolically. Hence fantasy is the most valuable genre we have, which is why, if you include myths and legends, it is humanity's first genre, and has been around the longest.
The death of my respect for JK Rowling's is something that I will mourn.
I truly miss the days where it didn’t feel like she was constantly talking down to people.
Me too. Her charm is lifting.
What did she say? I haven't being following her since before social media really took off. I liked what she said about social issues and literature back in the 2000s, but apparently she's upsetting a lot of people now.
She came out as a TERF for one. Real boomer move there, that. (That’s a transphobe who pretends to still be a woke Lib feminist)
So she's bad now for saying biological sex is real? Fuck me
I find this kind of amusing - since exactly the same is/was said about Sci-Fi. And to add upon it: Some famous sci-fi authors also claimed they were not writing Sci-Fi: Kurt Vonnegut and others. History repeating itself.
I remember seeing a Dragon Magazine cover long ago that had artwork depicting dragons with the caption, "The Incredible Majesty of Dragons." That was and is my attitude toward fantasy and all its trappings. If a person can get over their snobbery for just a little while they too could see the majesty and glory of fantasy and all it has to offer.
I've loved fantasy since I was first properly introduced to it (by way of the first Alcatraz vs the Evil Librarians book). I would rather write it than any other genre.
Genre authors and filmmakers will always be looked down on. No matter how many great minds we get in the field King, Martin, and even Tarantino will never be truly respected by the "elite artists" .
I'm glad you talked about how fantasy is viewed in academic circles. I used to work in an academic library and fantasy is shat on all the time. I always got so excited when I would look at required textbooks behind our desk, and see fantasy books listed for women and gender studies, or psychology, or sociology because there's so much in those stories that get ignored.
What about sci fi? How is that viewed?
@@ZamWeazle Still pretty poor, from my experience, but I think it's considered a little more reputable because it has the word "science" in the genre name. I remember talking to one of my student workers about Binti because a bunch of kids had to read it for a university 101 class. My student mentioned that he didn't like Binti, and I told him that's fair, but it's literally about a first generation college student. It's the perfect sci-fi book to get kids more acclimated to an academic setting when their families never encouraged them.
@@decembers06 Crazy isn't it?? Philip K Dick, Asimov, Arthur C Clark. Heinlein, Bradbury.
Mary Shelly, Jules Verne, H.G Wells. George Orwell! Some people have very short memories!!
Academics also think that Communism is good.
George RR Martin convinced the world that fantasy is THE ultimate genre.
Great rant. And the best part is when you finally said that the The Lord of the Rings is better than the Wheel of Time.
The Iliad and the odyssey or fantasy novels if you think about it the first fantasy novels
you mean "are"? And no, if you actually think about it you will notice this falls into nominalism, and will have a much clearer definition of fantasy, because saying it's just something that isn't real is not enough
Dude, if I ever hear someone call the Silmarillion childish, I’ll punch them in the face! That is the deepest most beautiful collection of pros and poetry ever penned. Tolkien is a genius, blessed by God.
the silmarillion is childish, so is lotr and the hobbit. It's time to grow up, dear right winger liberal...
So many of these fantasy haters love Game of Thrones and The Witcher (tv shows) though. Exposing their hypocrisy.
As fantasy goes more mainstream, I feel like it is amassing peer pressure to be a certain thing... I don't like it. I liked us better when we were the weird club.
@@anival9576 This feels so relatable,this stereotypes who just bend by peer pressure do not deserve any good content
Every genre has authors in it that cheapen the entire genre. And every genre has the capacity for triumphant truth-telling.
This green screen was the best investment ever made on this channel.
Let that rage out man. I'm tired of people shitting on the fantasy genre. It's honestly the best of all, you can basically write any genre you want AND ADD DRAGONS on top of that. Fantasy is just a tool to elevate your story, it does not affect the 'literary value' of your work is.
Did you just assume the screen's color? Yu dumbass!!!?
The Fantasy genre includes some of the most intelligent writing, ideas and stories I’ve ever read in fiction
Pratchett's Small Gods is a perfect example of a fantasy story reflecting, and exemplifying issues within the real world. It puts issues like propaganda, religion, echo chambers, and heard mentality into a perspective that is actually digestible and allows to reader to contemplate them outside of their own pre-existing biases
“Fellating himself in the forest of his own ego...” bless you for saying these words
That sounds like fun, but unfortunately I lack the flexibility to accomplish that.
They: -Why do you read fantasy? That tell a lot about you as a person. Childish! *they then go off to read fictional books about serial killers... *
Me, trying to fit in: - Well I have read some real crime novels about actual crimes... They, completely discusted: - You are SO wierd!
I strongly support these rant style videos. You hit on some really important points. As a high school teacher of history and English students often ask me what I read or what they should read and I usually recommend LOTR or Mistborn for them. Sadly, many students look shocked and respond "my parents wouldn't want me to wast my study time with those kinds of books." This truly infuriates me cause even in schools we overlook the massive impact fantasy can have on someone as a developing reader and person. Fantasy needs to be studying just as in-depth as we study Twain or Fitzgerald.
I appreciate your efforts :)
10/10 editing on this video 👌
Terry G. is like Kanye, without the talent, and more mentally ill.
you just say this because he said something you disliked, you're not mature
First viewing - here for the rant.
Second viewing - here for the rant and follow the memes.
Third viewing - here for the meme lore.
I don't write fantasy, I write stories that have elements of romance, history, adventure, mystery, and philosopy. So basically describing 90% of the fantasy stories I know.
Fantasy is my favorite genre (along with sci-fi) and I write it all the time.
we need,,,,, RENESANCE II: ELECTRIC BOOGALOO
With all do respect. I really love fantasy and I do agree that it gives writers tools that mainstream literature doesn't. That being said, there is only a handful of fantasy books that could rival the giants of literature. Somehow most of fantasy authors trapped themselves in a perpetual cycle of recycling the same themes. It started to change in the last 20 years, but we're far from done.