"Denethor's a great villain." "Who?" "Steward of Gondor, father of Boromir and Faramir, dies by jumping off a cliff while on fire." "Sorry, I don't know-" "Tomato guy." "Oh yeah, he's the worst."
How is Denethor being bad at tomatoes the most memorable part of his character? Like at least once or twice a year I think about how he couldn't just eat a cherry tomato without making a huge mess. I didn't even realize until this video that other people felt the same way.
@@Metadaxe because the internet,its random. They found something like a guy eating a tomato badly and the watchers felt uncomfortable by it. It's somewhat meme-able and it's funny because such a great written villain and character is being remembered as a tomato moron. Short answer, it's the internet, don't question it.
Thing is it doesn't really matter whether you do romances or friendships, as long as you do them correctly. If you drop a book because someone did romance with someone instead of friendships, you're kinda going about it the wrong way.
When th Fellowship of the ring was formed back in 1953 little did Tolkien know he had created the first ever D&D party. Although in hindsight they could have done with a Cleric.
four different fighters (two even picked the same subclass), one wizard, and four rouges that were starting at level one while the other five started at level ten. A horribly balanced party
Frodo: we are going to the land of evil, ruled by a dark lord and occupied by armies of orcs, all while hunted by high level undead. Shouldnt we take a cleric? Gandalf: nah, we will be fine Boromir:
The Kung-Fu apanda movies are unironically some of the best animated films I’ve watched. They’re a complete love-letter to the Wuxia genre, and the action scenes are tight and well animated. And don’t get me started on the actually well-written characters and dialogue. On top of that they’ve got great moral lessons for the little ones. They’re honestly some of my favorite films.
Villains are hit or miss though... Lord Shen is awesome Tai Lung is just a vengeful prick who only lost to Po because of plot armor and cartoon logic Kai is a regular boring dark lord type
@@artaum5635 I liked Tai Lung the most out of the villains. He's smart and resourceful, and his character makes sense given that he was a kid getting a singular goal driven into him by Shifu.
One of my favourite character tropes is the protag who's just tired of this shit. Goes well with the "old badass" and "too angry to die" tropes. Sam Vimes, Geralt, Granny Wetherwax and Kazuma Kiryu are some personal favourites.
@@GhostBusters-wb4un I feel like Doomguy is more " done with this shit" than "tired of this shit" since he never gets exhausted by it, he is boundlessly passionate. But he's definitely a standout on the spectrum.
I want to see a good third or half of a book develop a student/old master relationship only to kill off the student and have the grumpy old master save the world by themself instead
Tier list idea: favorite "monsters" in fantasy, dragons, trolls, giant spiders etc. Could even be all magical creatures. Some are more generic than others, but they can have small quirks or twists about them which makes them interesting.
Man so much of what makes Witcher interesting is all the subversions/plays/twists on established ideas of fantasy monsters and the deep cuts to European myths and lore.
"The Remote village" THAT is probably the most overused trope imo. IIRC, Terry Pratchett even poked fun of it in "Equal Rites" back in the 80's, describing the village the protagonist came from as a place so small and unremarkable, that it only existed so that someone could come from it. Then there's "Secret Royalty" and Carrot... Come to think of it, a lot of these tropes got the Discworld cheek.
I would've put it in D honestly. I hate love triangles. It would have to be done so fucking perfectly for me to like it that it's not even fair to the author. I think it's a terrible trope
@@THEPELADOMASTER This video actually made me want to write a story with a love triangle as the main focus. The skeleton of it would be some Chosen One hero, raised basically in isolation to maintain some prophetic "purity" requirement by a cult, eventually being released to go fight the Dark Lord. Normal Act One fellowship-gathering ensues, but notably the first woman he ever sees is one of the other points of the triangle. Action-girl type - in fact, let's throw in that "I'm not like other girls" self-hatred in there as well. Make her an abrasive character. Like she's been transported here from the Wheel of Time world. Just constantly needling and talking down to the naive protagonist. Except he, being an stereotypical young man raised in isolation, can't see past his surging hormones and falls head over heels for her (bam! We got instant "love" in there as well). She doesn't take to his instant affection very well. Maybe we learn that this is because she was betrayed in the past. She doesn't want to get close to people. Maybe give her some external flaw that makes her think no one will "truly" love her, they just want to use her. All classic stuff. Act two rolls around, and another female character joins the party, maybe a magic user of some kind (you can even make her a prodigy, but that's not necessary). And this one isn't a flaming asshole. Treats people with respect, including the hero. Maybe the party splits up for a while, and she spends time alone with him. He realizes that hey, here's a person that doesn't treat me like dogshit. Wow, I like her just as much - in fact, I like her more! Except he feels really guilty about that. He thought he loved Action Girl, now he thinks the same way about Mage Girl. So here there's this massive source of inner conflict. And what's more, he's been raised to believe he needs to be morally perfect to accomplish this prophecy. The idea that he would "betray" his "love" starts eating him up inside. When the party regroups, Action Girl notices the new warmth between Mage Girl and Hero. And to her surprise, gets jealous. She had been warming up to the Hero before the split, and was missing his puppy love. And now, in front of her eyes, she's being betrayed again. Rejected again. She's angry and hurt, and starts to take it out on the Hero even more, acting like an even more colossal jackass. But we can see where it's coming from. The low point of her arc comes when she's commiserating with one of the other, uninvolved party members, about how she's being rejected because she's "not a pretty doll hanging off the Hero's arm" and gets told point blank, no, it's because you're an asshole. So, three characters, with two interesting arcs between them. The question is, what to do with the third. The obvious choice is to make her a traitor, an agent of the Dark Lord intent on betraying the party. I'm hesitant to do that, since it makes the whole Hero-Action Girl pair seem inevitable. Then again, having the Hero come around could be a nice capstone to Action Girl's arc, a nice redemption/maturation moment for her. You could twist it for comedy, by revealing she was actually married the entire time, or really an 800-year-old elf or something that was completely uninterested in the Hero but just had a friendly personality. The supposed "love triangle" was just the Hero and Action Girl being super self-conscious and jealous, respectively. Not sure how interesting that would be in practice though. The Hero could, of course, just not end up with anyone, but that seems really dickish to the people that get invested in the romance aspect of the novel, and it seems like that would have to be a large part of this novel to do this particular subplot justice. Would need some more development. Too bad I have too many books I want to write already.
@@Aredel THANK YOU. what most people call love triangles is just a love *angle* because damn near never are the two (often male) love interests also interested in each other! the romantic prospects have to be connected to each other to imply the third line completing the triangle!!!!
Yep the Dark lord drove him mad. And seen what he could do to Saruman it's a great sign for Denathors morals that he only became that bad instead of getting fully corrupted.
Yes, he's tragic...Until he tries to burn you alive and runs RIGHT PAST the WATER FOUNTAIN and throws himself over the edge and falls....while BURNING. (Movie Denethor)
I had an idea for the prodigy trope, were the character is actually a master wizard whose pretending to be a student as a spy. The reason they act like an unrealistic prodigy is because they are prideful, and this gets the characters to figure him out
I love the secret royalty troupe because it’s absolutely hilarious. Some of my favorite example: The Barbie nutcracker movie “Clara u r the sugarplum princess” This Clara being a princess adds nothing but its just such a hilarious and awkward addition that makes me laugh. Any time there is secret royalty in a story I call my sister and yell “Clara u r the sugar plum princess” at her.
The tricky part is that they are only clichés if used poorly. These tropes define the genre. That's the tricky part of hating on some tropes and not others. Some ARE overused. It's probably a good idea to steer clear... until they been off the scene for a while. Then you circle back around. A lot of the most popular books don't follow popular opinion--they shape it.
It's because there's only so many ways a story can go to make it interesting. When you break down the fundamental strokes of every plot, a lot of them share a lot of things. Most stories have been written already. You just have to find a way to make it interesting
Its kinda impossible to write anything without cliché. Clichés are pretty inherently in writing because they basically just translate to the assumptions we all make on a daily basis to get through the day. Our brains are literally wired for pattern recognition and it’s because we recognize patterns that we can get through the day. For example, I wake up and feel a rumbling in my stomach. I know because of pattern recognition (and basic survival instinct) that the next step is to make or buy food to eat (or if you’re me ignore it until it goes away which I also know kinda works). Clichés are just common patterns we recognize. They aren’t inherently good or bad (as stated), but it depends on how they’re used. Take plot armor for example with the broader definition including plot convenience and etc you can’t not have it. Some things NEED to happen to advance the plot or story or character growth. You CAN affect how much of those things feel overly forced vs organic/natural plot, but that’s it. Let’s say the big bad kills the chosen one asap, okay how did they know they were the chosen one? Did no one else know? Why wasn’t the chosen one being protected or hidden if it’s something you can know? How are they the chosen one if they’re defenseless this early in their life? Why wouldn’t the chosen one be made or chosen AFTER they’ve passed X trials or trained enough? And it goes on and on. Eventually we all know the answer is just gonna be “because the author/story needed it to happen” and that’s fine. The problem is when that’s the answer far too often and its far too glaringly obvious.
I guess you could write an novel of Urban Fantasy without an epic world, but even there it would be a bit difficult, since a lot of UF has portal type elements, from Dresden Files on down. 🤔
Depends on a very built up world like Tolkien’s or a small world like in The Last Apprentice series where the world is kinda small and everything outside of the areas where the story is going on, doesn’t matter. Small worlds work well when used well.
Because "trope" is another old word that's coming back into fashion despite the fact that everyone is apparently too busy to look up what it means in this context.
"They turned out to be royalty all along! ...It often doesn't even largely affect the story in some ways; it's just there to be there and be cool" *Looks pointedly at Jon Snow*
You referring to the TV show Jon Snow right? Cause we honestly don't know how GRRM will use Jon in the upcoming books. If GRRM utilizes Jon's plotline well then I daresay it'll be fricking fantastic and raise the series even higher.
I got a Question. What are some really good examples of a High Fantasy series that has these qualities?: -A fantasy world that is its own mythology -Epic fight scenes and wars -Intense magic battles -A hugely expanded magic system -The archetypical hero’s journey -Dragons, Unicorns, Griffins, Sea Monsters, Phoenixes, and other known mythical beasts -Stunningly beautiful and smart female characters and love interests -Romantic story arcs that involve love and sex -Conflicts involving politics -Themes and elements and faith and religion -Spiritual and psychological themes -Elves, Dwarves, Goblins, Ghouls, Vampires, Merfolk, Fairies, Centaurs, and other non-human races -Different languages that are spoken by non-human languages -A feared and all-powerful dark lord who is after the main hero -the archetypal wise wizard -a community of wizards and sorceresses -Dark themes of tragedy, corruption, betrayal, and genocide -A tone that turns into being dark and gritty while always being mature from the start -Characters that are realistic and relatable in personality -Light and positive themes of faith, love, friendship, loyalty, honor, sacrifice and optimism
My favorite subversion of the not like other girls trope is in Well of Ascension. Paraphrased: Vin: "I'm not like other girls" Tindwyl: *Eye Roll* "No shit, everyone is unique." Edit: Important context Vin is anxious about the fact that she is different. It's not something she views as being better.
And it’s only in THoA that she actually acknowledges that she CAN be both a fierce warrior AND a noble woman who enjoys makeup, gowns and jewelry. I just love this trope in the series!
“Vin isn't...like other women." Tindwyl raised an eyebrow, her voice softening slightly. "I think that the more women you come to know, Your Majesty, the more you'll find that statement applies to all of them.”
I like the dark lord trope because it seems like there’s a flood anti-villains and anti-heroes right now across genres. Some clean good-vs-evil escapism can be comforting. I get enough gritty reality/moral ambiguity in real life.
Secret Royalty is just overplayed and outdone even when they are like hey I know you thought it was this character but bam the character I forgot to develop Prince 👑
The Once and Future Jake I think that could work on a lot of different levels but it would be a huge development with little payoff if we simply invert the trope. I think hidden lineage works better doesn’t have to be royal lineage but where the character and reader know it but the author moves to a place where the other characters experience the reveal and if done well you include the reader in on the surprise party.
@@thefinderskeep1680 Well, I was more thinking about the journey you could take with that kind of inversion. It isn't supposed to be set up for big payoff, but more the surprise catalyst to a downward spiral. I definitely don't think that using a trope like that would end happily. So maybe some kind of character study of a person losing everything and how that journey shapes them in unexpected ways.
@@TheOnceandFutureJake The decoy princess by dawn cook. You're welcome. (its about a girl finding out she was only a decoy for assassins bought off a beggar while the real princes was swaped with her in childhood and send away to a save place. Neither of them knew - until an political marriage and a war need the truth to come out. Welp) Edit: as a bonus, the magic system of this world was really cool too. Like its kinda based on poisoning yourself as far as my memory recalls (its been a lot of years since i read this, but i stll remember a lot bc it has a lot of very original ideas!)
The Once and Future Jake yeah we saw that with Loki finding out he wasn’t a Prince of Asgard but born a frost giant. I like the character study portion and yeah it would be totally a world crashing down moment for sure
The problem with saying that is some people think that, but I've only heard of tampons, pads, etc. referred to as 'feminine *hygiene* products,' so feminine products is completely fine. I hear that and think more of nail polish and makeup stuff among other things that are associated with femininity.
@@changelingreader14 Except that those products are not marketed that way and people who use them do not refer to them that way. Nor are nail polish and makeup used exclusively by people who use tampons etc.
I’d argue some D&D adventures are the closest you kinda get to “no plot armor” fantasy. There’s still a degree of it since the players are all generally stronger and luckier than average, but they can actually die in times where no one wants or expects them to and that to me means they mostly are free of plot armor. Of course this is only true if people aren’t fudging dice rolls.
I’d say the story that most closely replicated the tension of D&D is Goblin Slayer. Like, for a show with basically no character death I am never not on edge.
It's also free of the chosen one, since... The chosen one can't die and will stop the bad guy. And in D&D anyone can die at any time and anyone can finish off the bad guy. Now that I think about it, I guess instead of chosen one you could have chosen *ones* but still, the risk of death is still there.
@@Former_Halo_Fan that's why I said instead of one the chosen could be the whole party and have chosen *ones* since in dnd you don't have a single protagonist
Dark forest, or at least magic forest is one of my faves. Give me Mirkwood, The Old Forest, Fangorn, or the Woods from Uprooted anytime. Secret royalty can be done well, so long as it includes tall red haired dwarfs.
Question. What is a good High Fantasy series that has these qualities?: -A fantasy world that is its own mythology -Epic fight scenes and wars -Intense magic battles -A hugely expanded magic system -The archetypical hero’s journey -Dragons, Unicorns, Griffins, Sea Monsters, Phoenixes, and other known mythical beasts -Stunningly beautiful and smart female characters and love interests -Romantic story arcs that involve love and sex -Conflicts involving politics -Themes and elements and faith and religion -Spiritual and psychological themes -Elves, Dwarves, Goblins, Ghouls, Vampires, Merfolk, Fairies, Centaurs, and other non-human races -Different languages that are spoken by non-human languages -A feared and all-powerful dark lord who is after the main hero -the archetypal wise wizard -a community of wizards and sorceresses -Dark themes of tragedy, corruption, betrayal, and genocide -A tone that turns into being dark and gritty while always being mature from the start -Characters that are realistic and relatable in personality -Light and positive themes of faith, love, friendship, loyalty, honor, sacrifice and optimism
Favorite tropes: the band of misfits (like the fellowship but specifically derpy)! And Re-enforcements arrive, in the final battle when all is lost, and then the previous factions that the hero has helped show up and turn the tide.
Tbh, if I was the leader of the army that is getting raped by the enemy and my allies finally comes in the last second. I would be hella pissed and relieved
I used to do that when I was younger in elementary school writing simple short stories that usually went like "When he (main character) thought all was done, suddenly (army from someone he helped earlier) shows up and they kill all of the bad guys and they live happily ever after-" you get it
One trope that I don’t see enough is the opposite of insta love- friends to lovers. I automatically care more because when it’s done well there is the relational depth that comes from actually knowing each other. Enemies to lovers is also good, but harder to pull off
Enemies to lovers always feels cheap to me because it seems to be one of the most popular tropes among fandoms, such as Zuko - Katara or... Well, actually that's the biggest one I can think of. I see it with like Harry Potter and Draco, too, though. I'm sure it can be done well, but it just screams Fanon OTP™ to me. Friends to lovers has been done very well, though. My first thought was the Percy Jackson series, where I think Riordan did a good job taking his time to build the relationship. Somewhere in between friends to lovers and InstaLove™ is the relationship where the characters obviously feel some attraction pretty early on, but their relationship still takes time to develop into something truly romantic.
@@OrionSeas Zuko and Katara don't fit that tho. I do think that it can be written properly tho if you just have time in a story to do so. The only problem is that typically, stories don't have enough time to show the villainous be evil and then not only change for the better but also be in a relatiomship with someone on the enemy side.
Not quite enemies, more like antagonistic. Midna and link from twilight princess. At the start she clearly thinks of link as nothing but a servant but by the end it can easily be interpreted that she fell in love with the mute lug.
You forgot "best friend/side character unnecessary sacrifice in completely survivable situation." I'm lookin at you, Bob Newby, Just. Fucking. Turn. And run. D tier.
If an author's going to play the Useless Sacrifice card, they really have to let the sacrifice mean something first, even for an instant. When it's revealed to be ultimately useless in the large scale, make it affect the surviving characters. It can be done well, but so many people have a needless sacrifice just because a pre-written plot calls for it without understanding the reason it happened or the effect it had on everyone. Even when Jorge-052's sacrifice was undercut within a minute of a single cutscene, you still felt like he was justified in giving himself up to detonate the slipspace drive. Carter even says, "He died thinking he just saved the planet. We should all be so lucky." Please, PLEASE, can authors stop including stuff without making it mean something?
I feel like trying to divide tropes into tiers is impossible because in any given author's hands any trope can be either amazing or terrible. That said we all have tropes we love and hate. Screw secret royalty, but gimme some innocent farmboy.
No! Wrong! Liar reveal can NEVER be done right- no matter who is doing it. There are several tropes that suck so bad no one can ever do them right as far as I am concern ed and should never be used again.
I feel like Daniel's ranking by likeliness to be good for a story. The Dark Lord isn't low B because Daniel doesn't have particular fondness for it, he's a huge fan of LotR and WoT, it's because he thinks it doesn't have as high of a success rate as the Mentor or even the Dark Forest. I think he's going for exactly what you're talking about. Sure, any trope can be executed well, but some need more work on the author's part than others. As he says, the Fifth Sorceress is garbage, but even there the mentor was able to elevate it a few millimetres.
@@silverhawk1045 i dunno if u still want this answer but imma say it anyway. Liar reveal is when usually the lies told by protagonist are revealed. It can be any type of lies. In How to train your dragon, Hiccup kinda puts up a facade that he's a good dragon hunter when really he's the opposite. In Alladin, he lies that he's a prince when he's not. Gulliver tells the little men that he's a savior in his county. When these lies are all revealed, everyone is, in most cases, disappointed. And drama unfolds. This is lie reveal. Nd it can be annoying sometimes.
Daniel Greene Three was not good. It was dulled down for kids. Like, the first 2 were dark but kiddish. You could enjoy the stupid moments but also liked the serious dark moments. The third just lost that an went full childish mode.
I actually enjoy the third movie but I can agree that it is far from 1 and 2. 2 is my favorite because the villain is made for Po, whereas 1 is Shifu's villain and 3 is Oogway's villain.
I’d argue Secret Royalty is more fulfilled by A New Hope, with Like finding out he has the Force, like his father before him. Finding out his father is Darth Vader probably is more of a Villainous Lineage.
Depends what exactly you mean by plot armor. If it's "protagonist is in a situation where he could be killed but he comes out unharmed with no logical, In-Universe explanation" just because the plot needs him to survive then that's almost always D tier. If you mean this character survives to the end because the story is about the guy who made it all the way and not about the guy that died halfway to the end so naturally, he survives against the odds then that can definitely be A tier.
i don't see the difference between the two, honestly. In order for plot armor to work, the character must have a minimum amount of skills, wits and preparation to escape death in the situation he encounters (also people ready to protect him/her for satisfying reasons).
@@benjaminthibieroz4155 There is a big difference. Let's say we are in a war. Not 100% of the people die in a war., Someone lives through it, sometimes through sheer luck, not even skills necessary. Say there is a plane crash, 150 people die, 3 live, just because they sat in the right seat. Want to write a book about survivors guilt? Would you tell a story from the perspective of the 150 dead people? This is NOT plot armor, we just follow the story of the survivors. It can become plot armor, if there are obstacles no one would live through, but they do(3 plane crashes in a row? ;)). In the end it just comes down to how this is done. If you can make the reader forget that we all know the protagonist will live through it, you've done it right.
@@BoredMarcus Exactly, a stories written about someone who went through interesting things, and who saw them play out. No one else is the MC because they're boring.
@@BoredMarcus You're right about luck, it's an essential factor. Problem is: it's not a factor the reader will easily accept. Sheer luck is realistic but can look like cheating. Also, though i understand what you mean with the second case, it doesn't classify as plot armor to me. Plot armor apply to obstacles over the course of the story. In your example, survival is the mandatory premise of the story.
The Ring is not actually a Mcguffin, because it has a function in the story - as in, it DOES something, it has uses and effects. An item in a story is only a mcguffin if its ONLY function is "people want it"
True mcguffins are such a useful trope too. It provides a clear direction/motivation without needing to justify the 'why'. The criminals want the pearl/cat statue/ left glove because it grants power/wealth, great now let's move on to seeing how the charecters act and react. It gives momentum but allows us to really focus on the 'who' and 'how' of the charecters. It's one of the reason Hitchcock films are so good. We don't really care about what exactly the charecters are trying to do (run off with lots of money) it's much more about their emotions, ways of handling stress, interaction with obstacles, dreams etc.
Yeah, the One Ring wasn't a Mcguffin in Lord of the Rings. We have been told, "Power corupts, absolute power curupts absulutely." This was the central theme of Lord of the Rings. We see all kinds of characters in Tolkien's work. There might kings, and the lowest of the low. Power corupted them all. I've alway argued that Gollem was the hero of Lord of the Rings. Yes he was corupted, but he always controled the ring, they ring never controled him. You could say, Lord of the Ring was a story about an Evil ring was held captive, but escaped. The ring tried to be free, but in the end, it was captured, and destroyed by the weakest, and lowest of people.
The One Ring isn't a McGuffin, it's more like a character and definitely has a very large effect on the story. It corrupts everything it touches and that is the centre part of Lotr. You can't replace it with anything else, it can only be a ring (which can be worn) thus it isn't a mcguffin
Notice how your favorite tropes all fit in perfectly with the Hero’s Journey? Maybe that’s why they are great; because they are primeval aspects of the human experience?
Two ways to do a love triangle: Option A. They talk it out like adults and come to an agreement (a polycule is optional but encouraged) Option B. Korrasami
Korrasami was nice, but you’d have to make both the characters show their gay/bi/pan side every now and then so it makes sense when they end up together.
There's a big difference between a character *having* plot armour and that plot armour becoming obvious to the reader. It's the latter that people generally have a problem with.
@@samuelleask1132 a subtle instance of plot armor would be a character managing to escape through luck or something like that, while the more annoying kind of plot armor is when a character is being shot at by a trillion archers/snipers and MAYBE they only get hit on the shoulder at worst, which is annoying because it's like there's a switch that turns the enemy forces into incompetent idiots whenever the MC is around. but even more annoying than plot armor is plot de-armor, which is pretty much when a character gets stabbed THROUGH THEIR FUCKING ARMOR, with normal weapons.
@@samuelleask1132 The single worst plot armour i have ever seen is June/Offred not being killed ever in the handmaids tale. People get hung drawn and quartered all over the place for the most minor infraction and she is just strutting around cause mayhem and literally nothing bad happening. How my girlfriend managed to get me to watch 4 seasons of the utter garbage is beyond me.
In Russian language, we have a similar word to "trope" not related to books but surprisingly fits into "we won't have stories without tropes". The word is "тропа" (tropa) and it means 'trail' or 'a path'. When i hear the word trope, i always make this connection, and it makes sanse why those tropes exist.
My favorite tropes: -enemy turned into mc's companion to go on a journey together. Basically hostile to friend. -Love interest that fought together with the mc -isekais (it's so overused but i still like it) -antagonist experiencing something wholesome -kind characters turning berserk after enemy hurts their loved ones -mentor figure decides to teach mc even though they didn't want to at first -mc picking up a student to teach -mc's friends getting their spotlight and more chara development at the end fight -after endings
Agreed! I especially would like to see more main characters being mentors/teachers. Often protagonists are the ones being tought things, so I find it interesting to see them in different roles - in particular if the main character starts off as a student and turns into a teacher as the story unfolds.
I love myself some isekais. I generally like escapist fantasy and now that it jumped into the Western sphere of writing I see more interesting uses, like a doctor just being isekaid into a fantasy realm and turning into a prophet.
I think the quest is an excellent way to lead coherence to your story. You establish immediate stakes, gets characters united toward a common goal, and are able to introduce your wider world in a natural way.
Just wanted to note: the One Ring and Callendor are not really McGuffins, since their special abilities are important to the plot (Callendor is more of a McGuffin in the third book, but not in later ones)
@@nicthebull That's what makes it a Mcguffin in the 3rd book. It's only purpose at that point was that people wanted it and wanted to fulfill a prophecy
@@hckytwn3192 Yeah the ring is basically a character all of its own. Hello Future Me did a video about it, I didn't remember it all as I'm not a big Lord of the Rings fan but I feel it's good.
@@e443productions9 Best wishes. I have finally started writing the actual story for a world I have been building for 2 years and hope to execute some tropes well and subvert some.
Just like all tropes, can be amazing as well as annoying...but, hey, dragons are cool. Aren't they the embodiment of all of what makes fantasy great? Epicness and grace, horror and wonder, beauty and fear,... A-tier for me.
Man, what tropes didn't he subvert in First Law? *****SPOILERS***** He subverts fighting tournaments, wizard mentors, quests, evil torturers, instant love, Helm's Deep style last stands, and probably many more I can't remember.
@@alexquin4001 It could be that they're just all subverted these days. I don't know cause now I can't remember any except from that Brent Weeks book where the main character wins one by cheating.
Wheel of Time series is killing me with the relationships. Actually, every other page has to remind the reader what the character thinks of men or women.
Really?! One of my absolute favorite parts of The Wheel of Time is the depth, variety, and familiarity of the relationships. They all seem natural and real and they grow and develop in believable ways throughout the series. There are great friendships, romances, casual acquaintances, reluctant allies, and more. Yes, some of those dozens upon dozens of relationships feel less original, but for every "I've seen this before" there are several "They should do this more often"s.
You know what I've never ever seen? A love triangle of bicurious disasters where ALL THREE people are struggling over their feelings for the other two, instead of just one guy/girl choosing which of the two hottest guys/girls to kiss. That's a fucking goldmine of possibility when it comes to symbiotic characterization.
I mean it takes the character from part of their worries being about the feelings of others and not hurting someone they care about, to worrying about their own potential feelings of disappointment at choosing the wrong relationship.
Okay, but I've seen it done (and done well) ONCE but unfortunately it was in a very late installment of the Cassandra Claire books and I wouldn't wanna force those books on anyone who isn't interested anyways. But I liked it alright in there :)
I have a similar triangle in a story I'm working on where one is pansexual but the other two who like eachother are hetero. So rather than a triangle its a mutual romance between two parties with the third struggling to move on. I was a bit nervous including it and the character wasn't pansexual until I began getting further in the outline and I suddenly realized that she had good chemistry with the girl as well. I kinda like the "unrequited and complicated love" trope and I don't see it happen too often where a character has to really let go of those feelings and move on. (And yes the character is planned to have an arc where she moves on)
I think Azula in Avatar The Last Air Bender is a near perfect example of a prodigy character. She may be an amazing fire bender but it's because her father would only show her love when she succeeded and surpassed her peers. As a result her mental instability festers and became uncontrollable, eventually crippling her before she gradually clawed her way to a more stable insanity. She may have been nearly unsurpassed in skill but consequently she lost everything and her potential for a normal life was destroyed.
LOVE that you put Name of the Wind as the picture for Epic World. I LOVE those books. Seriously one of the most cohesive epic worlds I've read in a long time.
Hey Daniel, don’t think you’ll see this but I just want to say thank you SO much for your content. I’m around the same age as you, also grew up with my father getting me into fantasy and grew up in a home of avid readers. However, a number of my late teens/early twenties was spent in heavy academic writing, followed by a journalism specialization, then the beginnings of a copywriting career, so reading books no longer became an escape for me as I would unwind by avoiding the written word altogether (a shame, I know). But this year? WOW I’m on kick because of you re-sparking my drive to immerse myself and learn the craft of creative writing. I’ve power through First Law trilogy and am now starting Wheel of Time and burning through the pages. Haven’t been this fulfilled in ages. Thank you again from Toronto!
Instead of going with classical fantasy tropes, Sanderson has his own list of tropes that he tends to use: dead parents, arranged marriages, super hard magic systems, interactions of different magic systems, morally gray mentors, deific ascension/descension, easter egg characters doing things behind the scenes. They're mostly pretty great tropes, part of that Branderson/Cosmere flavor, and he's usually good at subverting them (esp. in Warbreaker), but they are there. P.S. 17th Shard has a great video up on Brandon tropes - it's really hilarious.
Yeah, tropes are pretty much unavoidable because they're basically a categorical description of common plot devices. If you don't have tropes you probably don't have a story. The trick, and the thing Sanderson has said repeatedly that he works really hard to do, is to find creative ways to take a trope and twist it, turn it on its head, or otherwise do it in a new way.
Oh man, idk what it is about remote village, but I absolutely love that trope. I just discovered your channel, so idk if you play videogames at all, but every fantasy trope that shows up in Fire Emblem Echoes are tropes I adore.
I deliberately start my d&d campaigns not in a remote village, but usually in bustling cities (preferably ones where long trade routes intersect). It makes much more sense for a handful of oddballs to meet in a place where nothing's out of place than for them to all be magically drawn to the middle of nowhere.
My thoughts on a few of these: MacGuffin/The Quest: I actually kind of like these tropes. They provide a perfectly serviceable framework on which to hang the action, character interactions, and worldbuilding that are the real reason I'm reading. Good King/Bad King: There are too many damn kings in fantasy. Unless your world is populated entirely by autonomous city-states, or your setting provides a 20th-century level of long-distance travel and communication, you would expect that the relevant political actors in many situations would be local governors or mid-level nobility who (nominally!) act on behalf of some distant authority. Yet how often do you hear about the "Good Viceroy" trope? Plot Armor: I think it's important to distinguish between a character surviving a situation because they do something clever or make interesting decisions, from a character surviving a situation because the baddies can't aim. If the MC gets into 100 situations where they should have died, and they survive every single one of them by doing something creative or solving the problem in a surprising way-that's fun, pulpy action writing, even if it strains the bounds of plausibility. But you need to show that the character is _trying_ to reduce the danger to themselves, and you need to make it seem that there is an actual threat of the MC dying if they make the wrong decisions.
Loved this video! After reading the Green Bone saga I wish the characters had a bit MORE plot armor... lmao I think my least favorite trope right now is kings in general. Obviously it depends on the author's skill, but I'm generally bored with books that focus heavily on the monarchy. Tier list suggestion: MAGICAL CITIES, aka the best trope (you should definitely read the Daevabad trilogy btw)!
You should have really added the "Unknown region" trope. Seriously they are one of the most interesting fantasy or scifi tropes out there (for me at least), i always love it when they are brought up it enables the imagination to go wild and make the world bigger and misterios especially if there small enough information about it to tease your interest and imagination
One thing that I love: The Legend of Drizzt series has a fellowship, but it gets built up over time. The story starts out (for pretty much the entire first trilogy) as just Drizzt, but then more people join the party as the series progresses.
The only secret royalty moment I'm okay with is Space Balls and it is largely because it is pointing out how stupid secret royalty is. Well royalty in general.
I am a non-native English speaker and I started to learn English this year so I don't even know the meanings of half of these tropes but here I am still watching this.
While I will agree the the hidden royalty is very often executed poorly. I think it is the most misused trope and has potential to be fantastic for plot and character development. The biggest issue is that it usually comes at the end of a story when it has no bearing on the plot and that it is usually a good thing and they can transition into power easily. This trope need to be used to create problems, not solve them and should occur more towards the middle of a series. People finding out there is another royal family should be power struggles between them and the reigning family, even in the situation where they are blood and not just when the throne was usurped by a new family. What if the hidden royalty has a better claim then the next in line prince, would that prince not fight for what they were told is their birthright. How would the common people feel? Would this create a civil war? Is the hero now an enemy to the nation and cause he/she was fighting for. This idea of hidden royalty can be explored but writers never seem to want to make it anything more than something to tack on to the end. A decent example is John Snow being the rightful king did not fix any problem it created tension, him being the rightful air did not even come to fruition. No t the best example but one of the only ones that actually creates problems instead of solving the, hopefully the books do this more justice. I also don't see the issue with the hidden royalty being a clueless leader. They don't need to know how to tax people, they likely would form a counsel to take care of aspects of there rule they have no training in, hell plenty of leader for counsels to cover there weaknesses anyway. They might even be able offer things that no other leader in the past has, sympathy for the commoners. They truly know what matters to 99% of their country. This could even go a few different ways. They could be a beloved ruler by the people while also being a bad ruler when it come to policies. Now that they have a level of power and influence they never had it might start going to their head, if the person is stubborn and does not want help they could accidentally become a tyrant. Exploring the ideas that this hidden royalty might be a bad leader and cause more problems is also something important to consider that many writers don't Bottom line this trope needs to be used to create problems and tension that can move the plot along while also showing the struggle with the hidden royalty and their changes, be that for better or the worst.
Another thing you could include is whether they person actually wants the throne of whether just having the financial security and such of being royalty would be fine, maybe even just a grant to go to a good magic school, money to support their adoptive family, assistance with whatever quest they're on or such, depending on the motivation of the character, and whether anyone actually believes this. Maybe they're pressured into it, maybe however little they want the throne others target him because they're still a risk, maybe they are in a decent position otherwise and just want to walk away from it but aren't able to due to various circumstances. Honestly, having potential claims over a region/country just paints a target on their back in many ways which could lead to it's own struggles even if they have no intention of acting on their right.
I love how in the movies, Aragorn is like NO DON'T TELL THEM I'M THE KING I'M SO SHY and in the books, he's like I'M THE KING, BOW TO ME YOU LITTLE SH*
Royalty revealed at the end was perfectly done in Ghibli's howl's moving castle! (with turnip head!) because breadcrumbs were planted along the way that the prince of the neighboring kingdom had gone missing ~ and was a contributor to the start of the war!
Absolutely agree with a fellowship being in S tier. And I am a huge fan of a quest or journey in fantasy. And I think there’s important distinctions to be made between high tier, well done or not, and being overused or not.
I like this type of video a lot. I would like it more if you used more examples or alluded to specific scenes when discussing these tropes though! Thanks for all you do
Honestly, one trope in fantasy that gets sooo under my skin is the “evil = ugly (or not traditionally attractive)” trope. I can see it done well in some stories such as LOTR with the orcs being used (perhaps corrupted by Sauron) or Redwall with the more brutish animals trying to conquer the humble smaller animals, but most of the time it feels very unnecessary, and even perhaps insulting, as if a character cannot be good unless they’re beautiful or traditionally attractive. I’d love to see a story subvert this in the future or something like that.
i mean the alternative is "evil = pretty" and that itself is also sort of overused in my opinion, but in another way? people know that one is more predisposed to judge someone negatively if they are unkempt, unclean, disheveled, unsightly. often, the trope is subverted for a twist villain being "* gasp * the attractive one ?? but the old hag and her glass eye and her creepy leering totally had us convinced!" im tempted to say that this subversion is more common than the trope you mentioned, at least due to modern example, but maybe thats just because of the ham-fisted moral lesson of "beauty is skin deep" that's always tacked onto this subversion? it kinda makes it stick out like a sore thumb anytime i witness it lol
I have only seen one story where I think it did Secret Royalty pretty decent in my eyes (Keep in mind that I have zero taste in anime/literature, so I made be wrong). I liked the False Prince book/series, and I dont know if secret royalty added to it, but I dont think it detracted from it either.
If you wanna know more about the origin of the dark forest trope it kind of dates back to the earliest greek myths, where nature was scary and the realm of satyrs and gods and wild centaurs .
What tier list would you like to see in the future??
Romance in fantasy!
Fantasy mounts (aka rideables aka transportation (living, unliving, and mechanical)...
Battles in fantasy books
King killer plot lines (because it bassicly became a short story book)
Sci-fi universes
The good way to use plot armour:
The protagonist doesn't survive because he is the protagonist, he is the protagonist because he survives.
The Way of Kings in a nutshell. (Also, I definitely agree and it's a great way of putting it!)
I agree. If you look at it that way. We follow these people because they survive not the other way around
That sound like ASOIAF to me.
@@Rik-B My first thought. Also, the difference between Books Jon Snow and Jon Shnow.
Thats how ive always viewed plot armor
Random Kung Fu Panda appreciation rant? INSTANT LIKE FROM ME, SIR!!
Same
Totally! The Kung Fu Panda movies are highly underrated
@@naughtyniffler404 1st movie is one of best 2nd and 3rd are good too.
I recently rewatched that as well a few days ago even, and asp remembered how great
It was
If only i had an audience to share those thoughts with :p
@@IamnotfromUSA 1st had the best action and humor, 2nd had the best story and 3rd was just all around good except for the main villain Kai
One trope that I like that not featured here is the “cavalry is here trope” one of my personal favorites
Totally agree
Isn’t that also a military movie thing? And sci-fi? Though you may count that as fantasy too
@@doxazo5512 I believe that is from the idea that cavalry are the strongest force in the battlefield
Is that really a trope? Should cavalry never be allowed to go anywhere. I guess it’s a trope if it always only comes “just in the nick of time” .
It's a good one!
"Denethor's a great villain."
"Who?"
"Steward of Gondor, father of Boromir and Faramir, dies by jumping off a cliff while on fire."
"Sorry, I don't know-"
"Tomato guy."
"Oh yeah, he's the worst."
How is Denethor being bad at tomatoes the most memorable part of his character? Like at least once or twice a year I think about how he couldn't just eat a cherry tomato without making a huge mess. I didn't even realize until this video that other people felt the same way.
@@Metadaxe because the internet,its random. They found something like a guy eating a tomato badly and the watchers felt uncomfortable by it. It's somewhat meme-able and it's funny because such a great written villain and character is being remembered as a tomato moron.
Short answer, it's the internet, don't question it.
@@Metadaxe memes
I WILL NOT BOW TO THIS BASIC TABLE ETIQUETTE FROM THE NORTH
The utter disgust and horror has been burned into out memory.
As soon as he said "Im tired of romances I want some good friendships" I screamed in joy
Same
I’m a sucker for romances 😂
I love me a good romance, but give me some man and woman just being bros; there's nothing wrong with that!
@@DrDolan2000 Exactly! I love seeing relationships like that especially when written well
Thing is it doesn't really matter whether you do romances or friendships, as long as you do them correctly.
If you drop a book because someone did romance with someone instead of friendships, you're kinda going about it the wrong way.
Everytime you say "love triangle" I can't help but think of Terrible Writing Advice
He would put it in the E tier xD
I prefer a good rhombus of terror.
D. Draber *S
I can't help but think about him either when I here love triangle, no matter where I hear it.
LOL! That was the FIRST thing that popped in my head as well.
When th Fellowship of the ring was formed back in 1953 little did Tolkien know he had created the first ever D&D party. Although in hindsight they could have done with a Cleric.
four different fighters (two even picked the same subclass), one wizard, and four rouges that were starting at level one while the other five started at level ten. A horribly balanced party
Frodo: we are going to the land of evil, ruled by a dark lord and occupied by armies of orcs, all while hunted by high level undead. Shouldnt we take a cleric?
Gandalf: nah, we will be fine
Boromir:
@@terrible209 wouldnt it be 3 fighters wizzard 4 rogues (or 3 if Sam is more of lvl1 warrior) and a hunter/marksman ie. Legolas?
Actually Aragorn is kinda of a ranger/cleric.
It is certainly better than the party of the hobbit: a rogue, a part time wizard, and 13 identical dwarf fighters
The Kung-Fu apanda movies are unironically some of the best animated films I’ve watched. They’re a complete love-letter to the Wuxia genre, and the action scenes are tight and well animated. And don’t get me started on the actually well-written characters and dialogue. On top of that they’ve got great moral lessons for the little ones. They’re honestly some of my favorite films.
Agreed
Villains are hit or miss though...
Lord Shen is awesome
Tai Lung is just a vengeful prick who only lost to Po because of plot armor and cartoon logic
Kai is a regular boring dark lord type
The comedy is amazing too, especially given it's a kids' movie
you forgot the excellent music.
@@artaum5635 I liked Tai Lung the most out of the villains. He's smart and resourceful, and his character makes sense given that he was a kid getting a singular goal driven into him by Shifu.
Daniel Greene: "Aragon is not Secret Royalty."
Elrond: *Plan Failed*
0-20 year old Aragorn was secret royalty. 87 year old Aragorn knows what he is and he wants to get sh*t done
i want someone to write a satire book that includes every single trope in this list and makes it as cliche as possible.
So... Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth? not sure if satire, tho
You mean like The Princess Bride?
Do you watch Terrible Writing Advice? I have a feeling you'll enjoy their videos
Me right now writing a story with only tropes
@@rayraffiki1856 or overly sarcastic productions trope talk
One of my favourite character tropes is the protag who's just tired of this shit. Goes well with the "old badass" and "too angry to die" tropes. Sam Vimes, Geralt, Granny Wetherwax and Kazuma Kiryu are some personal favourites.
Yes! This!
Logen 9 fingers is my fav take on that trope
@@GhostBusters-wb4un I feel like Doomguy is more " done with this shit" than "tired of this shit" since he never gets exhausted by it, he is boundlessly passionate. But he's definitely a standout on the spectrum.
Also realised I omitted possibly my favourite example, Raziel from the Legacy of Kain series!
I want to see a good third or half of a book develop a student/old master relationship only to kill off the student and have the grumpy old master save the world by themself instead
"Every fantasy has an evil forest or a *swamp* " dark souls flashbacks
Darrei Deamos Everything is evil in a SoulsBorne game! 😂
Dark souls forest or swamps are straight up out to get you
Fuck farron keep
Fuck blight-town all my homies hate blight-town
"Leaked: fromsoft's new game has a swamp in it!"
"We know."
Tier list idea: favorite "monsters" in fantasy, dragons, trolls, giant spiders etc. Could even be all magical creatures. Some are more generic than others, but they can have small quirks or twists about them which makes them interesting.
Age of fire is a good one
You want monsters? SCP has monsters. Like 'SCP 939: With many voices'.
Personally, Dragons, Wendigo and Genies all the way.
Man so much of what makes Witcher interesting is all the subversions/plays/twists on established ideas of fantasy monsters and the deep cuts to European myths and lore.
I always wanted to write a story in which the so called "Demons" are actually the nice guys and the real bad ones are the gods and humans. Any ideas?
"The Remote village" THAT is probably the most overused trope imo. IIRC, Terry Pratchett even poked fun of it in "Equal Rites" back in the 80's, describing the village the protagonist came from as a place so small and unremarkable, that it only existed so that someone could come from it.
Then there's "Secret Royalty" and Carrot... Come to think of it, a lot of these tropes got the Discworld cheek.
Daniel: *puts Love Triangle to C tier*
Terrible Writing Advice: "So it's war!"
I would've put it in D honestly. I hate love triangles. It would have to be done so fucking perfectly for me to like it that it's not even fair to the author.
I think it's a terrible trope
@@THEPELADOMASTER This video actually made me want to write a story with a love triangle as the main focus. The skeleton of it would be some Chosen One hero, raised basically in isolation to maintain some prophetic "purity" requirement by a cult, eventually being released to go fight the Dark Lord.
Normal Act One fellowship-gathering ensues, but notably the first woman he ever sees is one of the other points of the triangle. Action-girl type - in fact, let's throw in that "I'm not like other girls" self-hatred in there as well. Make her an abrasive character. Like she's been transported here from the Wheel of Time world. Just constantly needling and talking down to the naive protagonist. Except he, being an stereotypical young man raised in isolation, can't see past his surging hormones and falls head over heels for her (bam! We got instant "love" in there as well). She doesn't take to his instant affection very well. Maybe we learn that this is because she was betrayed in the past. She doesn't want to get close to people. Maybe give her some external flaw that makes her think no one will "truly" love her, they just want to use her. All classic stuff.
Act two rolls around, and another female character joins the party, maybe a magic user of some kind (you can even make her a prodigy, but that's not necessary). And this one isn't a flaming asshole. Treats people with respect, including the hero. Maybe the party splits up for a while, and she spends time alone with him. He realizes that hey, here's a person that doesn't treat me like dogshit. Wow, I like her just as much - in fact, I like her more! Except he feels really guilty about that. He thought he loved Action Girl, now he thinks the same way about Mage Girl. So here there's this massive source of inner conflict. And what's more, he's been raised to believe he needs to be morally perfect to accomplish this prophecy. The idea that he would "betray" his "love" starts eating him up inside.
When the party regroups, Action Girl notices the new warmth between Mage Girl and Hero. And to her surprise, gets jealous. She had been warming up to the Hero before the split, and was missing his puppy love. And now, in front of her eyes, she's being betrayed again. Rejected again. She's angry and hurt, and starts to take it out on the Hero even more, acting like an even more colossal jackass. But we can see where it's coming from.
The low point of her arc comes when she's commiserating with one of the other, uninvolved party members, about how she's being rejected because she's "not a pretty doll hanging off the Hero's arm" and gets told point blank, no, it's because you're an asshole.
So, three characters, with two interesting arcs between them. The question is, what to do with the third. The obvious choice is to make her a traitor, an agent of the Dark Lord intent on betraying the party. I'm hesitant to do that, since it makes the whole Hero-Action Girl pair seem inevitable. Then again, having the Hero come around could be a nice capstone to Action Girl's arc, a nice redemption/maturation moment for her. You could twist it for comedy, by revealing she was actually married the entire time, or really an 800-year-old elf or something that was completely uninterested in the Hero but just had a friendly personality. The supposed "love triangle" was just the Hero and Action Girl being super self-conscious and jealous, respectively. Not sure how interesting that would be in practice though.
The Hero could, of course, just not end up with anyone, but that seems really dickish to the people that get invested in the romance aspect of the novel, and it seems like that would have to be a large part of this novel to do this particular subplot justice.
Would need some more development. Too bad I have too many books I want to write already.
It’s not even a triangle. It’s a love segmented line.
@@Aredel THANK YOU. what most people call love triangles is just a love *angle* because damn near never are the two (often male) love interests also interested in each other! the romantic prospects have to be connected to each other to imply the third line completing the triangle!!!!
In a way, "secret royalty" is a manifestation of the "chosen one" trope. Also, Denethor is much more of a tragic character than an "evil" one.
Yep the Dark lord drove him mad. And seen what he could do to Saruman it's a great sign for Denathors morals that he only became that bad instead of getting fully corrupted.
Riakm Especially the way he was portrayed in the movies. Very reminiscent of King Lear, Othello and Macbeth.
Agreed, Denethor wasn't evil. Comes out better in the books.
Yes, he's tragic...Until he tries to burn you alive and runs RIGHT PAST the WATER FOUNTAIN and throws himself over the edge and falls....while BURNING. (Movie Denethor)
@@Juhani139 crazy human fireball in the movies...
I had an idea for the prodigy trope, were the character is actually a master wizard whose pretending to be a student as a spy. The reason they act like an unrealistic prodigy is because they are prideful, and this gets the characters to figure him out
I feel like this is so easy to write badly, especially if this character is the protagonist or a protagonist-sided side character.
@@MagizardInternet the prodigy in this scenario is one of the antagonists
@@PedroGarcia-jj2xs That's fine loads easier then. The idea lends itself well to a prick, so antagonist is the way to go.
I have anti prodigy idea where Ch is super powerfull but he do not have talent so he strugle to handle that power
@@volttur3711 I think that's Carry On by Rainbow Rowell. S-tier power, E-tier skill, main character at magic school.
I love the secret royalty troupe because it’s absolutely hilarious. Some of my favorite example:
The Barbie nutcracker movie
“Clara u r the sugarplum princess”
This Clara being a princess adds nothing but its just such a hilarious and awkward addition that makes me laugh. Any time there is secret royalty in a story I call my sister and yell “Clara u r the sugar plum princess” at her.
I rewatched that movie recently and oh boy, its fucking knee-breakingly hilarious when that happens
Old mentor trope: S tier
Old mentor dying trope: D tier
Old mentor is actually the villain: S+ teir
Old Mentor vs Fallen Apprentice: S+ Tier
Old Mentor is Actually the villain, but his apprentice change his heart, but after that the Apprentice become the real villain: SS+ Tier
@@Jamdoe That legit sounds really nice, but I wonder if its been done before, because I have not seen it in anything I read lol. Any suggestions?
@@Jamdoe but then apprentice villain reveals that all along it was actually the old mentor that was the true villain all along SSS+
I just realized how hard it is to write a Fantasy story without clichés...
The tricky part is that they are only clichés if used poorly. These tropes define the genre. That's the tricky part of hating on some tropes and not others. Some ARE overused. It's probably a good idea to steer clear... until they been off the scene for a while. Then you circle back around. A lot of the most popular books don't follow popular opinion--they shape it.
It's because there's only so many ways a story can go to make it interesting. When you break down the fundamental strokes of every plot, a lot of them share a lot of things. Most stories have been written already. You just have to find a way to make it interesting
Trope =\= cliché
Pretty much impossible.
Its kinda impossible to write anything without cliché. Clichés are pretty inherently in writing because they basically just translate to the assumptions we all make on a daily basis to get through the day. Our brains are literally wired for pattern recognition and it’s because we recognize patterns that we can get through the day. For example, I wake up and feel a rumbling in my stomach. I know because of pattern recognition (and basic survival instinct) that the next step is to make or buy food to eat (or if you’re me ignore it until it goes away which I also know kinda works). Clichés are just common patterns we recognize. They aren’t inherently good or bad (as stated), but it depends on how they’re used. Take plot armor for example with the broader definition including plot convenience and etc you can’t not have it. Some things NEED to happen to advance the plot or story or character growth. You CAN affect how much of those things feel overly forced vs organic/natural plot, but that’s it. Let’s say the big bad kills the chosen one asap, okay how did they know they were the chosen one? Did no one else know? Why wasn’t the chosen one being protected or hidden if it’s something you can know? How are they the chosen one if they’re defenseless this early in their life? Why wouldn’t the chosen one be made or chosen AFTER they’ve passed X trials or trained enough? And it goes on and on. Eventually we all know the answer is just gonna be “because the author/story needed it to happen” and that’s fine. The problem is when that’s the answer far too often and its far too glaringly obvious.
"Epic world" is a trope? Why? That's like saying "humans are a fantasy trope".
I guess you could write an novel of Urban Fantasy without an epic world, but even there it would be a bit difficult, since a lot of UF has portal type elements, from Dresden Files on down. 🤔
Well, there are a lot of non-epic fantasies that are still amazing. But yes, it is a a lot more difficult, and I get what you’re trying to say.
Depends on a very built up world like Tolkien’s or a small world like in The Last Apprentice series where the world is kinda small and everything outside of the areas where the story is going on, doesn’t matter. Small worlds work well when used well.
There's a DND campaign that takes place entirely within a city
Because "trope" is another old word that's coming back into fashion despite the fact that everyone is apparently too busy to look up what it means in this context.
"They turned out to be royalty all along! ...It often doesn't even largely affect the story in some ways; it's just there to be there and be cool"
*Looks pointedly at Jon Snow*
I was thinking the same thing, I'm surprised he didnt even mentioned it
You referring to the TV show Jon Snow right? Cause we honestly don't know how GRRM will use Jon in the upcoming books. If GRRM utilizes Jon's plotline well then I daresay it'll be fricking fantastic and raise the series even higher.
well, he’s not in the books (yet, at least).
@@annie-il9dj Jon is one of my favorite characters, but i'd rather he stays dead than having the same fate he had in the series
I got a Question. What are some really good examples of a High Fantasy series that has these qualities?:
-A fantasy world that is its own mythology
-Epic fight scenes and wars
-Intense magic battles
-A hugely expanded magic system
-The archetypical hero’s journey
-Dragons, Unicorns, Griffins, Sea Monsters, Phoenixes, and other known mythical beasts
-Stunningly beautiful and smart female characters and love interests
-Romantic story arcs that involve love and sex
-Conflicts involving politics
-Themes and elements and faith and religion
-Spiritual and psychological themes
-Elves, Dwarves, Goblins, Ghouls, Vampires, Merfolk, Fairies, Centaurs, and other non-human races
-Different languages that are spoken by non-human languages
-A feared and all-powerful dark lord who is after the main hero
-the archetypal wise wizard
-a community of wizards and sorceresses
-Dark themes of tragedy, corruption, betrayal, and genocide
-A tone that turns into being dark and gritty while always being mature from the start
-Characters that are realistic and relatable in personality
-Light and positive themes of faith, love, friendship, loyalty, honor, sacrifice and optimism
My favorite subversion of the not like other girls trope is in Well of Ascension.
Paraphrased:
Vin: "I'm not like other girls"
Tindwyl: *Eye Roll* "No shit, everyone is unique."
Edit: Important context Vin is anxious about the fact that she is different. It's not something she views as being better.
subversion done right indeed.
Alos the fact that this difference came from life and not a pure choice of the character made out of contempt.
And it’s only in THoA that she actually acknowledges that she CAN be both a fierce warrior AND a noble woman who enjoys makeup, gowns and jewelry. I just love this trope in the series!
“Vin isn't...like other women."
Tindwyl raised an eyebrow, her voice softening slightly.
"I think that the more women you come to know, Your Majesty, the more you'll find that statement applies to all of them.”
Vin and Mistborn are amazing
And sometimes there are those Karen types, where all of them are more or less the same.
Seeing these tropes and realizing how well Tolkien did most of them is crazy
They also became true tropes largely due to tolkien
Let's go niners
@@Liam-ve1ir TreyDay
@@dannygld23 Trey Area lfg
I like the dark lord trope because it seems like there’s a flood anti-villains and anti-heroes right now across genres. Some clean good-vs-evil escapism can be comforting. I get enough gritty reality/moral ambiguity in real life.
Brandon Sanderson book or character tier list!
He already did one for his books, but i'd love a tier ranking of Sanderson characters!!
The stick js S tier hands down
Dude a character tier list would need about 100 episodes
Dew it
There better be a Dalinar-tier above S.
Secret Royalty is just overplayed and outdone even when they are like hey I know you thought it was this character but bam the character I forgot to develop Prince 👑
I'd love to have an inversion of that, honestly. A member of royalty finding out their heritage is a lie, and their life comes crashing down.
The Once and Future Jake I think that could work on a lot of different levels but it would be a huge development with little payoff if we simply invert the trope. I think hidden lineage works better doesn’t have to be royal lineage but where the character and reader know it but the author moves to a place where the other characters experience the reveal and if done well you include the reader in on the surprise party.
@@thefinderskeep1680 Well, I was more thinking about the journey you could take with that kind of inversion. It isn't supposed to be set up for big payoff, but more the surprise catalyst to a downward spiral. I definitely don't think that using a trope like that would end happily. So maybe some kind of character study of a person losing everything and how that journey shapes them in unexpected ways.
@@TheOnceandFutureJake The decoy princess by dawn cook. You're welcome.
(its about a girl finding out she was only a decoy for assassins bought off a beggar while the real princes was swaped with her in childhood and send away to a save place. Neither of them knew - until an political marriage and a war need the truth to come out. Welp)
Edit: as a bonus, the magic system of this world was really cool too. Like its kinda based on poisoning yourself as far as my memory recalls (its been a lot of years since i read this, but i stll remember a lot bc it has a lot of very original ideas!)
The Once and Future Jake yeah we saw that with Loki finding out he wasn’t a Prince of Asgard but born a frost giant. I like the character study portion and yeah it would be totally a world crashing down moment for sure
"I don't like feminine products."
I don't think that word means what you think it means. ;)
I was totally coming to leave this comment bahahaha. My mind was like where is he going with this?
what does it mean then?
Feminine products are period products. Tampons and the like.
The problem with saying that is some people think that, but I've only heard of tampons, pads, etc. referred to as 'feminine *hygiene* products,' so feminine products is completely fine. I hear that and think more of nail polish and makeup stuff among other things that are associated with femininity.
@@changelingreader14 Except that those products are not marketed that way and people who use them do not refer to them that way. Nor are nail polish and makeup used exclusively by people who use tampons etc.
The loveable giant trope is one of my faves. Hagrid and Hodor being the most iconic ones maybe.
hold the door
I’d argue some D&D adventures are the closest you kinda get to “no plot armor” fantasy. There’s still a degree of it since the players are all generally stronger and luckier than average, but they can actually die in times where no one wants or expects them to and that to me means they mostly are free of plot armor.
Of course this is only true if people aren’t fudging dice rolls.
You step into a large room with a small crevasse in the middle.
You jump across the crevasse.
*Roll... 1*
The room collapses on you.
I’d say the story that most closely replicated the tension of D&D is Goblin Slayer. Like, for a show with basically no character death I am never not on edge.
It's also free of the chosen one, since... The chosen one can't die and will stop the bad guy.
And in D&D anyone can die at any time and anyone can finish off the bad guy.
Now that I think about it, I guess instead of chosen one you could have chosen *ones* but still, the risk of death is still there.
@@THEPELADOMASTER There can only be one Chosen One. It's in the name.
@@Former_Halo_Fan that's why I said instead of one the chosen could be the whole party and have chosen *ones* since in dnd you don't have a single protagonist
Dark forest, or at least magic forest is one of my faves. Give me Mirkwood, The Old Forest, Fangorn, or the Woods from Uprooted anytime.
Secret royalty can be done well, so long as it includes tall red haired dwarfs.
Carrot Ironfoundersson! One of my favs!
First law handles royality trope well imo
Warhammer Fantasy Battle has dope Dark Forests.
yeah I‘m really intimidated now because I am going for a secret royalty trope in the first book of my series but it‘s hinted at
Question. What is a good High Fantasy series that has these qualities?:
-A fantasy world that is its own mythology
-Epic fight scenes and wars
-Intense magic battles
-A hugely expanded magic system
-The archetypical hero’s journey
-Dragons, Unicorns, Griffins, Sea Monsters, Phoenixes, and other known mythical beasts
-Stunningly beautiful and smart female characters and love interests
-Romantic story arcs that involve love and sex
-Conflicts involving politics
-Themes and elements and faith and religion
-Spiritual and psychological themes
-Elves, Dwarves, Goblins, Ghouls, Vampires, Merfolk, Fairies, Centaurs, and other non-human races
-Different languages that are spoken by non-human languages
-A feared and all-powerful dark lord who is after the main hero
-the archetypal wise wizard
-a community of wizards and sorceresses
-Dark themes of tragedy, corruption, betrayal, and genocide
-A tone that turns into being dark and gritty while always being mature from the start
-Characters that are realistic and relatable in personality
-Light and positive themes of faith, love, friendship, loyalty, honor, sacrifice and optimism
Favorite tropes: the band of misfits (like the fellowship but specifically derpy)! And Re-enforcements arrive, in the final battle when all is lost, and then the previous factions that the hero has helped show up and turn the tide.
Tbh, if I was the leader of the army that is getting raped by the enemy and my allies finally comes in the last second. I would be hella pissed and relieved
I used to do that when I was younger in elementary school writing simple short stories that usually went like "When he (main character) thought all was done, suddenly (army from someone he helped earlier) shows up and they kill all of the bad guys and they live happily ever after-" you get it
One trope that I don’t see enough is the opposite of insta love- friends to lovers. I automatically care more because when it’s done well there is the relational depth that comes from actually knowing each other. Enemies to lovers is also good, but harder to pull off
Enemies to lovers always feels cheap to me because it seems to be one of the most popular tropes among fandoms, such as Zuko - Katara or... Well, actually that's the biggest one I can think of. I see it with like Harry Potter and Draco, too, though. I'm sure it can be done well, but it just screams Fanon OTP™ to me.
Friends to lovers has been done very well, though. My first thought was the Percy Jackson series, where I think Riordan did a good job taking his time to build the relationship.
Somewhere in between friends to lovers and InstaLove™ is the relationship where the characters obviously feel some attraction pretty early on, but their relationship still takes time to develop into something truly romantic.
@@OrionSeas did you forget Yggrite and Jon snow? It was done beautifully
@@OrionSeas Zuko and Katara don't fit that tho. I do think that it can be written properly tho if you just have time in a story to do so. The only problem is that typically, stories don't have enough time to show the villainous be evil and then not only change for the better but also be in a relatiomship with someone on the enemy side.
Not quite enemies, more like antagonistic. Midna and link from twilight princess. At the start she clearly thinks of link as nothing but a servant but by the end it can easily be interpreted that she fell in love with the mute lug.
Enimies to lovers is for bad fanfic writers imo. Doesn’t make much sense. The farthest enemy becoming close trope id go is enemies to friends.
You forgot "best friend/side character unnecessary sacrifice in completely survivable situation."
I'm lookin at you, Bob Newby, Just. Fucking. Turn. And run.
D tier.
If an author's going to play the Useless Sacrifice card, they really have to let the sacrifice mean something first, even for an instant. When it's revealed to be ultimately useless in the large scale, make it affect the surviving characters. It can be done well, but so many people have a needless sacrifice just because a pre-written plot calls for it without understanding the reason it happened or the effect it had on everyone.
Even when Jorge-052's sacrifice was undercut within a minute of a single cutscene, you still felt like he was justified in giving himself up to detonate the slipspace drive. Carter even says, "He died thinking he just saved the planet. We should all be so lucky."
Please, PLEASE, can authors stop including stuff without making it mean something?
The red queen series be like, “hold my beer, imma take all of these tropes”
I feel like trying to divide tropes into tiers is impossible because in any given author's hands any trope can be either amazing or terrible. That said we all have tropes we love and hate. Screw secret royalty, but gimme some innocent farmboy.
No! Wrong! Liar reveal can NEVER be done right- no matter who is doing it. There are several tropes that suck so bad no one can ever do them right as far as I am concern ed and should never be used again.
@@MrParkerman6 Whats liar reveal?
@@MrParkerman6 people lie all the time in real life tho...
I feel like Daniel's ranking by likeliness to be good for a story. The Dark Lord isn't low B because Daniel doesn't have particular fondness for it, he's a huge fan of LotR and WoT, it's because he thinks it doesn't have as high of a success rate as the Mentor or even the Dark Forest.
I think he's going for exactly what you're talking about. Sure, any trope can be executed well, but some need more work on the author's part than others. As he says, the Fifth Sorceress is garbage, but even there the mentor was able to elevate it a few millimetres.
@@silverhawk1045 i dunno if u still want this answer but imma say it anyway.
Liar reveal is when usually the lies told by protagonist are revealed. It can be any type of lies.
In How to train your dragon, Hiccup kinda puts up a facade that he's a good dragon hunter when really he's the opposite.
In Alladin, he lies that he's a prince when he's not.
Gulliver tells the little men that he's a savior in his county.
When these lies are all revealed, everyone is, in most cases, disappointed. And drama unfolds.
This is lie reveal. Nd it can be annoying sometimes.
Kung fu panda 2 is great,honestly.
AND 3!
The 3 was very disapointing to me, but 2 is great indeed
I hated the third movie, but the other two are borderline perfect
Daniel Greene Three was not good. It was dulled down for kids. Like, the first 2 were dark but kiddish. You could enjoy the stupid moments but also liked the serious dark moments. The third just lost that an went full childish mode.
I actually enjoy the third movie but I can agree that it is far from 1 and 2. 2 is my favorite because the villain is made for Po, whereas 1 is Shifu's villain and 3 is Oogway's villain.
Old wise wizard needs to be in S tier. Old wise wizards are awesome!
Edit: I knew it!
Isn't Luke being Vader's son technically the secret royalty trope? I would say that one is well done.
I’d argue Secret Royalty is more fulfilled by A New Hope, with Like finding out he has the Force, like his father before him.
Finding out his father is Darth Vader probably is more of a Villainous Lineage.
"Let people be friends." THANK YOU!! YES!
Depends what exactly you mean by plot armor.
If it's "protagonist is in a situation where he could be killed but he comes out unharmed with no logical, In-Universe explanation" just because the plot needs him to survive then that's almost always D tier.
If you mean this character survives to the end because the story is about the guy who made it all the way and not about the guy that died halfway to the end so naturally, he survives against the odds then that can definitely be A tier.
Say our main character is a really good swordsman who manages to fight his way out of
i don't see the difference between the two, honestly. In order for plot armor to work, the character must have a minimum amount of skills, wits and preparation to escape death in the situation he encounters (also people ready to protect him/her for satisfying reasons).
@@benjaminthibieroz4155 There is a big difference. Let's say we are in a war. Not 100% of the people die in a war., Someone lives through it, sometimes through sheer luck, not even skills necessary. Say there is a plane crash, 150 people die, 3 live, just because they sat in the right seat. Want to write a book about survivors guilt? Would you tell a story from the perspective of the 150 dead people? This is NOT plot armor, we just follow the story of the survivors. It can become plot armor, if there are obstacles no one would live through, but they do(3 plane crashes in a row? ;)). In the end it just comes down to how this is done. If you can make the reader forget that we all know the protagonist will live through it, you've done it right.
@@BoredMarcus Exactly, a stories written about someone who went through interesting things, and who saw them play out. No one else is the MC because they're boring.
@@BoredMarcus You're right about luck, it's an essential factor. Problem is: it's not a factor the reader will easily accept. Sheer luck is realistic but can look like cheating.
Also, though i understand what you mean with the second case, it doesn't classify as plot armor to me. Plot armor apply to obstacles over the course of the story. In your example, survival is the mandatory premise of the story.
The Ring is not actually a Mcguffin, because it has a function in the story - as in, it DOES something, it has uses and effects. An item in a story is only a mcguffin if its ONLY function is "people want it"
True mcguffins are such a useful trope too. It provides a clear direction/motivation without needing to justify the 'why'. The criminals want the pearl/cat statue/ left glove because it grants power/wealth, great now let's move on to seeing how the charecters act and react. It gives momentum but allows us to really focus on the 'who' and 'how' of the charecters. It's one of the reason Hitchcock films are so good. We don't really care about what exactly the charecters are trying to do (run off with lots of money) it's much more about their emotions, ways of handling stress, interaction with obstacles, dreams etc.
Yeah, the One Ring wasn't a Mcguffin in Lord of the Rings. We have been told, "Power corupts, absolute power curupts absulutely." This was the central theme of Lord of the Rings. We see all kinds of characters in Tolkien's work. There might kings, and the lowest of the low. Power corupted them all. I've alway argued that Gollem was the hero of Lord of the Rings. Yes he was corupted, but he always controled the ring, they ring never controled him. You could say, Lord of the Ring was a story about an Evil ring was held captive, but escaped. The ring tried to be free, but in the end, it was captured, and destroyed by the weakest, and lowest of people.
A better example of a mcguffin would be the army of the dead, though it's more of a mcguffin in the movies than the books.
Still a McGuffin. That’s not a bad title I mean the ring was one of the first so who cares.
Just cuz something has a use doesn't make it any less of a MacGuffin, dumbass.
The One Ring isn't a McGuffin, it's more like a character and definitely has a very large effect on the story. It corrupts everything it touches and that is the centre part of Lotr. You can't replace it with anything else, it can only be a ring (which can be worn) thus it isn't a mcguffin
Can it be an amulet or an armband?
I agree. True MacGuffins are supposed to be meaningless. The Ring is full of character and meaning and relevance to theme
@D S
You literally described a Macguffin, dumbass. The rings are Macguffins, dumbass. Get over it.
@@MrParkerman6 that's not the definition of a macguffin
@@zachhecita A Mgguffin can be a person. Princess Peach in Mario Bros is a Mgguffin.
Notice how your favorite tropes all fit in perfectly with the Hero’s Journey? Maybe that’s why they are great; because they are primeval aspects of the human experience?
Two ways to do a love triangle:
Option A. They talk it out like adults and come to an agreement (a polycule is optional but encouraged)
Option B. Korrasami
Korrasami was nice, but you’d have to make both the characters show their gay/bi/pan side every now and then so it makes sense when they end up together.
Love me some Tier List!! + Tropes are always fun to discuss!!
Magic school didn't make the cut here which makes me sad. Probably one of my favourite tropes.
Ooh yeah, this is a good one
There's a big difference between a character *having* plot armour and that plot armour becoming obvious to the reader. It's the latter that people generally have a problem with.
Interesting. Could we have an example? :)
Samuel Leask Game of Thrones Seasons 7-8
@@samuelleask1132 a subtle instance of plot armor would be a character managing to escape through luck or something like that, while the more annoying kind of plot armor is when a character is being shot at by a trillion archers/snipers and MAYBE they only get hit on the shoulder at worst, which is annoying because it's like there's a switch that turns the enemy forces into incompetent idiots whenever the MC is around.
but even more annoying than plot armor is plot de-armor, which is pretty much when a character gets stabbed THROUGH THEIR FUCKING ARMOR, with normal weapons.
@@samuelleask1132 The single worst plot armour i have ever seen is June/Offred not being killed ever in the handmaids tale. People get hung drawn and quartered all over the place for the most minor infraction and she is just strutting around cause mayhem and literally nothing bad happening. How my girlfriend managed to get me to watch 4 seasons of the utter garbage is beyond me.
In Russian language, we have a similar word to "trope" not related to books but surprisingly fits into "we won't have stories without tropes". The word is "тропа" (tropa) and it means 'trail' or 'a path'. When i hear the word trope, i always make this connection, and it makes sanse why those tropes exist.
Oh good twist on convention make the "chosen one" absolutely horribly insufferable so old wise mentor has to kill him and do it himself lmao
Fellowship, especially found family is my favorite trope. I eat that s*** up.
My favorite tropes:
-enemy turned into mc's companion to go on a journey together. Basically hostile to friend.
-Love interest that fought together with the mc
-isekais (it's so overused but i still like it)
-antagonist experiencing something wholesome
-kind characters turning berserk after enemy hurts their loved ones
-mentor figure decides to teach mc even though they didn't want to at first
-mc picking up a student to teach
-mc's friends getting their spotlight and more chara development at the end fight
-after endings
Agreed!
I especially would like to see more main characters being mentors/teachers. Often protagonists are the ones being tought things, so I find it interesting to see them in different roles
- in particular if the main character starts off as a student and turns into a teacher as the story unfolds.
Isekai is usually so bad yet so good that every time i read anything with an actual publisher i feel like I'm reading LotR.
I love everything on your list
I love myself some isekais. I generally like escapist fantasy and now that it jumped into the Western sphere of writing I see more interesting uses, like a doctor just being isekaid into a fantasy realm and turning into a prophet.
- mc's love interest also being the mentor and the two of them fighting side by side as equal badasses
As someone raised in a small village in Brazil, I love it when characters come from tiny cottages.
I think the quest is an excellent way to lead coherence to your story. You establish immediate stakes, gets characters united toward a common goal, and are able to introduce your wider world in a natural way.
Just wanted to note: the One Ring and Callendor are not really McGuffins, since their special abilities are important to the plot (Callendor is more of a McGuffin in the third book, but not in later ones)
It isn't really a mcguffins in the 3 book because it doesn't really do anything other than forfill the prophecy
@@nicthebull That's what makes it a Mcguffin in the 3rd book. It's only purpose at that point was that people wanted it and wanted to fulfill a prophecy
@@andrewdiaz3529 I've misunderstood the meaning of the term then 😅
Yes, thank you... the one ring is definitely not a McGuffin
@@hckytwn3192 Yeah the ring is basically a character all of its own. Hello Future Me did a video about it, I didn't remember it all as I'm not a big Lord of the Rings fan but I feel it's good.
Here’s one I’ve noticed: gross, crime ridden cities. Luthadel, camorr, tarbean, ankh morpork to name a few
I mean it’s kind of an A or S Tier trope because it can be done very well. Especially Ankh-Morpork.
Germ-X Agreed, I like them a lot, they’re usually very entertaining settings
gross, crime ridden cities AKA cities. That's like saying glass, transparent windows
New York
Ketterdam? (Six of Crows)
Lol I didn’t even realize evil swamp was a trope lmao. Writing a fantasy book thinking you are somewhat original be like:
It's most probable that your idea won't be original and unique. Don't fret on it. The execution is what nails the trope.
@@thesaintzor625 Yeah that's very much true. Here's to hoping my editing phase will boost that sequence up
@@e443productions9 Best wishes. I have finally started writing the actual story for a world I have been building for 2 years and hope to execute some tropes well and subvert some.
@@thesaintzor625 Good luck to you too!
Secret royalty done well: Pan's Labyrinth.
I mean it’s questionable if it’s even real so idk if that counts strictly
my personal favorite trope in any story is when the humans are scarier/ more evil than the monsters. I know it's overused but I love it
It is, tbh, entirely accurate knowing there are animals scarier than us but we can be even more scary
I honestly hate it at this point
"....But What About Dragons?...."
Shad-isms aside how are dragons not a trope?! Dragons have always been a trope! theyre as old as human fiction!
Definitely S-Tier
D-tier for me. I am so goddamn sick of dragons
Biodiversity appreciation
Just like all tropes, can be amazing as well as annoying...but, hey, dragons are cool. Aren't they the embodiment of all of what makes fantasy great? Epicness and grace, horror and wonder, beauty and fear,... A-tier for me.
Another Shadiversity fan! Come, join the fight against nunchucks!
One of the best subversion of the secret royalty is Jezal from First Law.
True. It was done in a way it felt like as if Joe Abercrombie was mocking the secret royalty trope.
Man, what tropes didn't he subvert in First Law? *****SPOILERS***** He subverts fighting tournaments, wizard mentors, quests, evil torturers, instant love, Helm's Deep style last stands, and probably many more I can't remember.
@@calebmauer1751 He didn't really subvert fighting tournaments as almost all fighting tournaments have a twist to them.
@@alexquin4001 It could be that they're just all subverted these days. I don't know cause now I can't remember any except from that Brent Weeks book where the main character wins one by cheating.
Or from blade runner 2048 he was the clone
“I’m tired of everything being romance” is so true.
I love the "goon turned independent antagonist" trope.
0:00-0:30 Intro
0:31-1:39 Plot Armour
1:40-2:31 Remote Village
2:32-3:33 Secret Royalty
3:34-4:24 The Chosen One
4:25-5:03 The Dark Lord
5:04-5:49 Mcguffin Item
5:50-6:42 The Fellowship
6:43-7:24 "I Am Not Like Other Girls"
7:25-7:45 Instant Love
7:46-8:28 The Evil King
8:29-8:41 The Good King
8:42-8:59 Magical City
9:00-9:45 The Prodigy
9:46-10:40 Wise/Mentor Wizard
10:41-11:21 The Dark Forest
11:22-12:20 The Love Triangle
12:21-12:36 The Epic World
12:37-13:38 The Quest
13:39-14:10 The Elves Race
14:11-15:06 Random Horror Sequence
15:07-15:41 The Cannon Fodder
15:42-16:16 Grand Epic Battle
16:17-17:10 The Final Showdown
17:11-17:52 outro
Random teir list idea (that might just be bad idk): climax teir list (e.g Dumai's Wells)
Kung Fu panda is incredible. And the sequel when he throws back the canon ball! Love kung fu panda.
Ok
Daniel: *You can’t write a book without plot armour*
Brandon Sanderson while writing Mistborn: *Yeah totally*
Don't know if you read Well of Ascension, but Vin should definitely should have died in that book
Even then there is plot armor
Wheel of Time series is killing me with the relationships. Actually, every other page has to remind the reader what the character thinks of men or women.
I can't even get started with the first book. All my respects to Daniel, but it's way too wordy.
I waded through the first... ten books was it? Robert Jordan definitely could have used a stricter editor.
Oh Same! Also has a side of “Not like other girls”. “Instalove” And “Undercooked Fellowship” And “perfect Prodigy.” Erg.
Really?! One of my absolute favorite parts of The Wheel of Time is the depth, variety, and familiarity of the relationships. They all seem natural and real and they grow and develop in believable ways throughout the series. There are great friendships, romances, casual acquaintances, reluctant allies, and more. Yes, some of those dozens upon dozens of relationships feel less original, but for every "I've seen this before" there are several "They should do this more often"s.
love this channel man
magic city for life
I just came here after watching your video 😂
You know what I've never ever seen? A love triangle of bicurious disasters where ALL THREE people are struggling over their feelings for the other two, instead of just one guy/girl choosing which of the two hottest guys/girls to kiss. That's a fucking goldmine of possibility when it comes to symbiotic characterization.
I mean it takes the character from part of their worries being about the feelings of others and not hurting someone they care about, to worrying about their own potential feelings of disappointment at choosing the wrong relationship.
Okay, but I've seen it done (and done well) ONCE but unfortunately it was in a very late installment of the Cassandra Claire books and I wouldn't wanna force those books on anyone who isn't interested anyways. But I liked it alright in there :)
I have a similar triangle in a story I'm working on where one is pansexual but the other two who like eachother are hetero. So rather than a triangle its a mutual romance between two parties with the third struggling to move on.
I was a bit nervous including it and the character wasn't pansexual until I began getting further in the outline and I suddenly realized that she had good chemistry with the girl as well.
I kinda like the "unrequited and complicated love" trope and I don't see it happen too often where a character has to really let go of those feelings and move on.
(And yes the character is planned to have an arc where she moves on)
oh you mean an *actual* triangle?? refreshing to see lol
I think Azula in Avatar The Last Air Bender is a near perfect example of a prodigy character. She may be an amazing fire bender but it's because her father would only show her love when she succeeded and surpassed her peers. As a result her mental instability festers and became uncontrollable, eventually crippling her before she gradually clawed her way to a more stable insanity. She may have been nearly unsurpassed in skill but consequently she lost everything and her potential for a normal life was destroyed.
LOVE that you put Name of the Wind as the picture for Epic World. I LOVE those books. Seriously one of the most cohesive epic worlds I've read in a long time.
Hey Daniel, don’t think you’ll see this but I just want to say thank you SO much for your content. I’m around the same age as you, also grew up with my father getting me into fantasy and grew up in a home of avid readers. However, a number of my late teens/early twenties was spent in heavy academic writing, followed by a journalism specialization, then the beginnings of a copywriting career, so reading books no longer became an escape for me as I would unwind by avoiding the written word altogether (a shame, I know). But this year? WOW I’m on kick because of you re-sparking my drive to immerse myself and learn the craft of creative writing. I’ve power through First Law trilogy and am now starting Wheel of Time and burning through the pages. Haven’t been this fulfilled in ages. Thank you again from Toronto!
How about ranking the Wheel of Time books individually, with the rule that at least one book has to go under each category.
Going through all the tropes made me realize that Sanderson's works are pretty anti-trope....
And I love it.
Instead of going with classical fantasy tropes, Sanderson has his own list of tropes that he tends to use: dead parents, arranged marriages, super hard magic systems, interactions of different magic systems, morally gray mentors, deific ascension/descension, easter egg characters doing things behind the scenes. They're mostly pretty great tropes, part of that Branderson/Cosmere flavor, and he's usually good at subverting them (esp. in Warbreaker), but they are there.
P.S. 17th Shard has a great video up on Brandon tropes - it's really hilarious.
take just the final empire and count how many of these tropes are in that book. sandarson isn't anti-trope. he just does it better.
Yeah, tropes are pretty much unavoidable because they're basically a categorical description of common plot devices. If you don't have tropes you probably don't have a story. The trick, and the thing Sanderson has said repeatedly that he works really hard to do, is to find creative ways to take a trope and twist it, turn it on its head, or otherwise do it in a new way.
I feel like Ender’s Game is a prodigy done really well, and it feels justified in context.
Oh man, idk what it is about remote village, but I absolutely love that trope. I just discovered your channel, so idk if you play videogames at all, but every fantasy trope that shows up in Fire Emblem Echoes are tropes I adore.
I deliberately start my d&d campaigns not in a remote village, but usually in bustling cities (preferably ones where long trade routes intersect). It makes much more sense for a handful of oddballs to meet in a place where nothing's out of place than for them to all be magically drawn to the middle of nowhere.
Ahh love the trope lists. Definitely a video for authors to watch and digest. Your insight is always epic.
My thoughts on a few of these:
MacGuffin/The Quest: I actually kind of like these tropes. They provide a perfectly serviceable framework on which to hang the action, character interactions, and worldbuilding that are the real reason I'm reading.
Good King/Bad King: There are too many damn kings in fantasy. Unless your world is populated entirely by autonomous city-states, or your setting provides a 20th-century level of long-distance travel and communication, you would expect that the relevant political actors in many situations would be local governors or mid-level nobility who (nominally!) act on behalf of some distant authority. Yet how often do you hear about the "Good Viceroy" trope?
Plot Armor: I think it's important to distinguish between a character surviving a situation because they do something clever or make interesting decisions, from a character surviving a situation because the baddies can't aim. If the MC gets into 100 situations where they should have died, and they survive every single one of them by doing something creative or solving the problem in a surprising way-that's fun, pulpy action writing, even if it strains the bounds of plausibility. But you need to show that the character is _trying_ to reduce the danger to themselves, and you need to make it seem that there is an actual threat of the MC dying if they make the wrong decisions.
Loved this video! After reading the Green Bone saga I wish the characters had a bit MORE plot armor... lmao
I think my least favorite trope right now is kings in general. Obviously it depends on the author's skill, but I'm generally bored with books that focus heavily on the monarchy.
Tier list suggestion: MAGICAL CITIES, aka the best trope (you should definitely read the Daevabad trilogy btw)!
You should have really added the "Unknown region" trope. Seriously they are one of the most interesting fantasy or scifi tropes out there (for me at least), i always love it when they are brought up it enables the imagination to go wild and make the world bigger and misterios especially if there small enough information about it to tease your interest and imagination
One thing that I love: The Legend of Drizzt series has a fellowship, but it gets built up over time. The story starts out (for pretty much the entire first trilogy) as just Drizzt, but then more people join the party as the series progresses.
The only secret royalty moment I'm okay with is Space Balls and it is largely because it is pointing out how stupid secret royalty is. Well royalty in general.
I am a non-native English speaker and I started to learn English this year so I don't even know the meanings of half of these tropes but here I am still watching this.
While I will agree the the hidden royalty is very often executed poorly. I think it is the most misused trope and has potential to be fantastic for plot and character development.
The biggest issue is that it usually comes at the end of a story when it has no bearing on the plot and that it is usually a good thing and they can transition into power easily. This trope need to be used to create problems, not solve them and should occur more towards the middle of a series. People finding out there is another royal family should be power struggles between them and the reigning family, even in the situation where they are blood and not just when the throne was usurped by a new family. What if the hidden royalty has a better claim then the next in line prince, would that prince not fight for what they were told is their birthright. How would the common people feel? Would this create a civil war? Is the hero now an enemy to the nation and cause he/she was fighting for. This idea of hidden royalty can be explored but writers never seem to want to make it anything more than something to tack on to the end. A decent example is John Snow being the rightful king did not fix any problem it created tension, him being the rightful air did not even come to fruition. No t the best example but one of the only ones that actually creates problems instead of solving the, hopefully the books do this more justice.
I also don't see the issue with the hidden royalty being a clueless leader. They don't need to know how to tax people, they likely would form a counsel to take care of aspects of there rule they have no training in, hell plenty of leader for counsels to cover there weaknesses anyway. They might even be able offer things that no other leader in the past has, sympathy for the commoners. They truly know what matters to 99% of their country. This could even go a few different ways. They could be a beloved ruler by the people while also being a bad ruler when it come to policies. Now that they have a level of power and influence they never had it might start going to their head, if the person is stubborn and does not want help they could accidentally become a tyrant. Exploring the ideas that this hidden royalty might be a bad leader and cause more problems is also something important to consider that many writers don't
Bottom line this trope needs to be used to create problems and tension that can move the plot along while also showing the struggle with the hidden royalty and their changes, be that for better or the worst.
Like I said earlier I think the false prince did this very well
Another thing you could include is whether they person actually wants the throne of whether just having the financial security and such of being royalty would be fine, maybe even just a grant to go to a good magic school, money to support their adoptive family, assistance with whatever quest they're on or such, depending on the motivation of the character, and whether anyone actually believes this.
Maybe they're pressured into it, maybe however little they want the throne others target him because they're still a risk, maybe they are in a decent position otherwise and just want to walk away from it but aren't able to due to various circumstances.
Honestly, having potential claims over a region/country just paints a target on their back in many ways which could lead to it's own struggles even if they have no intention of acting on their right.
I love how in the movies, Aragorn is like NO DON'T TELL THEM I'M THE KING I'M SO SHY and in the books, he's like I'M THE KING, BOW TO ME YOU LITTLE SH*
Royalty revealed at the end was perfectly done in Ghibli's howl's moving castle! (with turnip head!) because breadcrumbs were planted along the way that the prince of the neighboring kingdom had gone missing ~ and was a contributor to the start of the war!
Absolutely agree with a fellowship being in S tier. And I am a huge fan of a quest or journey in fantasy.
And I think there’s important distinctions to be made between high tier, well done or not, and being overused or not.
The tomato scene from lord of the rings (I thought it was a cherry) makes me loose my appetite everytime i think of it
Its as gross as Smeagols fish scene
@@gasoline10head I find that scene not gross at all for some reason, same with when gollum snaps the rabbit in half
While there were Cherry's on his table, he was most definitely eating a tomato.
Those tomatoes are sometimes called Cherry Tomatoes, but they are definitely Tomatoes.
@@ThanatoselNyx oh okay....God it feels bad to be nerded out
Me: wtf Daniel is sleep deprived and depressed.
Also me: Oh I am not watching him on 2x again. Whoops.
Betrayal is the best trope and the protagonist turning to the antagonist or just being morally grey until everyone is turning against him ❤️.❤️
I like this type of video a lot. I would like it more if you used more examples or alluded to specific scenes when discussing these tropes though! Thanks for all you do
Honestly, one trope in fantasy that gets sooo under my skin is the “evil = ugly (or not traditionally attractive)” trope. I can see it done well in some stories such as LOTR with the orcs being used (perhaps corrupted by Sauron) or Redwall with the more brutish animals trying to conquer the humble smaller animals, but most of the time it feels very unnecessary, and even perhaps insulting, as if a character cannot be good unless they’re beautiful or traditionally attractive. I’d love to see a story subvert this in the future or something like that.
The 300 movie : this sign can't stop me cause I can't read
i mean the alternative is "evil = pretty" and that itself is also sort of overused in my opinion, but in another way?
people know that one is more predisposed to judge someone negatively if they are unkempt, unclean, disheveled, unsightly. often, the trope is subverted for a twist villain being "* gasp * the attractive one ?? but the old hag and her glass eye and her creepy leering totally had us convinced!"
im tempted to say that this subversion is more common than the trope you mentioned, at least due to modern example, but maybe thats just because of the ham-fisted moral lesson of "beauty is skin deep" that's always tacked onto this subversion? it kinda makes it stick out like a sore thumb anytime i witness it lol
The book "The False Prince" actually pulls off secret royalty pretty well
yes i was just thinking this!!
I have only seen one story where I think it did Secret Royalty pretty decent in my eyes (Keep in mind that I have zero taste in anime/literature, so I made be wrong). I liked the False Prince book/series, and I dont know if secret royalty added to it, but I dont think it detracted from it either.
The amount of these tropes that show up in Fire Emblem is astonishing.
If you wanna know more about the origin of the dark forest trope it kind of dates back to the earliest greek myths, where nature was scary and the realm of satyrs and gods and wild centaurs
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Joe Abercrombie and Terry Pratchett have done two of the best "secret royalty" tropes execution I've ever read.