I've uploaded subtitles for this video, but haven't had the time to "proof read" them yet. I hope to do that in the upcoming week. Hope they're still ok for those of you who need it. As mentioned in the video you can find my sources, information on my survey and the disclaimers in the description.
It's really interesting because in today's Chinese lesbian community, the idea of butchfem, or rather T for (Tomeboy) and P for (Pretty Girls) were similar to how the quote from Reggie (the butch lady from 1950s) said. The idea of butchfem dynamic here is not tied that much to appearances as Chinese culture puts less emphasis on aesthetic and more on the kind just roles (?) one is in during a butchfem lesbian relationship. So the idea of long hair, feminine looking Ts are very common, I'd say I even fall into that category eventhough I am bi. And the idea that someone both is T and present masculine/adopt masculine traits as well as assuming the identity of T has its own subcategory, which is called 铁T (direct translated into iron butch I guess but it's not as simple as it sounds and very heavily characterized by Chinese societal context that's hard to explain in one comment). And the idea of P which is an equivalent of femme, is one that also doesn't desonate to appearance mostly. It is more defined by one's role in a relationship's...private times lol. And there is H which just means one switches. I meet a lot of Chinese lesbian/sapphic friends through creative and writing and art scene, and it is literally impossible to tell almost always who is the T or the P in the relationship (unless the T is 铁T which means they would advertly adopt masculine traits), unless like they directly tells you and define it themselves etc
Also worth noting gender roles in Chinese community is not as pronounced in appearance than in the west (not saying misogyny and standard of beauty do not exist, but they are tuned down in Chinese culture especially in the north where I'm from). Maybe contrary to popular belief but nothern Chinese women are characterized by kind of an inheritent defying of gender norms of being very masculine in the sense that no one is western-standard of soft spoken or gentle (which is also an East Asian stereotype of women being more quiet and submissive, always make me laugh out loud for someone from the west who believes to be true unironically). This creates a lesbian culture that the idea of T and P usually are used as definitions for finding a partner or the roles a couple assumes during their relationship, and can almost never be presumed or discerned by gender presentation, and assuming someone's T or P based on appearrances will usually just confuse what I think is the definition of butch and fem in the western sphere. Even the foundational writer of Chinese lesbian community, Qiu Miaojin, who would be defined as possibly a traditional butch because she lived mostly in the western sphere of queer community, described herself in her book Last Words from Montmartre by stating that her hair has grown longer and she feels like she has become more feminine, despite it never seemingly comes to much debate about her T or P alignment.
I'm not gonna lie, as a black bisexual woman with a complicated relationship with womanhood and femininity, I have felt alienated by the term femme. Femme has just felt like something that was not made with someone like me in mind. There is only so many times you can hear that femme is a lesbian term before you give up and just say "fuck it, keep your term then!". Combine that with the struggle to even feel feminine enough to claim the term aesthetically, and it leads me to not see myself as femme at all. I kind of wish there was a more popular term for black femmes, in the same way that stud is used (that is more relevant than fish). I appreciate you making this video because it is irritating constantly seeing this argument online in passive-aggressive ways. I don't know if I will go on to call myself femme, but I will at least feel more like I can if I want to in the future.
I understand your struggles..I am a femme lesbian brown woman... attracted mostly to other females but also I love masc energy in women .. absolutely not in men...
Femme is french for woman, it's pronounced [fam] When I discovered the English part of the lgbt family I founded it so weird to use a word that mean woman to describe a specific type of woman 😂😅
I learned so much from this!! Thank you for all your research and for making it really accessible for those of us who may be newer to queer history. And yes, the infighting and policing of other people's identities really needs to stop. To me, queerness is (and should be) expansive. I have not rejected heteronormativity only to squeeze my complex self into another rigid framework defined by somebody else.
Hey thanks, this is really good. I'm fem(me), I guess? Like nonbinary and feminine but pretty ambivalent about femme identity due to the gatekeeping you discuss in this video, but I definitely relate to the concept of consciously constructed queer/trans femininity AND to femininity in a kinda ~sapphic but not necessarily monosexual lesbian context. And idk just, thanks for this, good video.
This was such an interesting watch! I’m transmasc and pretty exclusively date transfems, and we often refer to those relationships as butch/femme. I think for me, butchness is about a performance I am doing specifically to appeal to women - I’ve definitely felt an expectation and pressure to be available and appealing to cis men, even (and tbh in some ways especially) post-transition, and refusing this and focusing my sexuality and performance of sexuality towards women feels really liberating. In terms of my partners’ femme-ness, I think there’s a lot to be said about the economics. People do talk about how butchfemme is historically working class, and transphobia and transmisogyny especially absolutely make trans people statistically a social underclass. My partners’ femininity is treated as a ‘bad’ femininity, both because of general transmisogyny but also because economic transmisogyny has meant most of them have engaged in sex work at least occasionally in the past. The one thing I don’t see my experience in here is the discussion of femme invisibility - although as you mentioned, I do think that is a primarily cissexual experience. I don’t personally pass as straight (as a straight man or as a straight woman), and my partners are pretty much never read as cishet women. I experience more queerphobic street harassment in these butchfemme partnerships than I ever did dating men (even when I was/am read as a cis man). I actually don’t agree with participant 7 on this - I don’t think it’s an ‘especially if they’re cis’ situation, but a ‘this basically only applies if you are read as a cis woman’ thing.
thanks a lot for the informative takes and reading material on this video. tbh i held some of these incorrect views on fem(me) and i'm glad i've been able to learn more about the openness of the term and identities. i'd also love to see you do a deep dive on butch (bc i'm a butch myself and i have a lot more reading behind me than i do on femme)💖
this is so interesting, thanks ! but as a French, using a term in another language to identify an identity seem really confusing because it cannot be used in the original language of the term you are using since it already means something ! since Femme means Woman in French :/ and even if it is not used that way, well in French we are at lost because of that !
@ true haha , and it is okay to not perfectly clear sometimes I think , it s better to find ways to be clear than to fight about it anyway 😅 I m non binary and since I present most of the time fem , people labels me as a woman and in the international queer community sometimes as Femme , which triggers me since it is the word meaning woman in French , so thank you for seeing I the confusion and even Pain it can create for French speaking people ! I do think we should have an English term so that as French we can create one instead of Femme though
Wow! As you went throughout evolutions/branches of the world...I felt more connected to the word, at the start I was feeling very distant from the words origins. Fascinating stuff! I'll be sharing this video with my friends for sure. .... OMG AROACES AND ACES WERE MENTIONED❤🎉!!!! Even black women's struggles were touched upon? I'm surprised. 😮 👍🏾
I am a nonbinary omnisexual femme top and I am looking forward to watching this video. I struggle to be seen correctly. It would so much easier for me to date if I presented butch. In some ways the community still feels like it works in a traditionally gendered way.
Im open to the idea Ive been so thoroughly indoctrinated into radical neoliberal individualism that I can't understand certain concepts but.... what is the point of all this? All of this presumes I should fit into some kind of role or that other's are entitled to a set of predefined behavior from me. I guess what Im driving at is: *why is it just an assumption that people have identities?* Who am I? Im me. I was someone who like Mystic frozen pizzas, I ate a bunch of them, & now Im someone who can't stand them. I do what I like, I do what I don't like, I like what I didn't like, I don't like what I did like, I don't do what I don't like. Everything about me is constantly changing as I interact with the world. Sure I have a few preferences that have been stable. Ive never been attracted to women or desired a romantic relationship with one. But if that situation occurred Id be open to it All these conversations seem to be about "redefining the role because it excluded [X] group" or came with "[X] expectation that is problematic" or "this role should not be allowed for [X] reason". It all seems kinda pointless. A role is always going to be exclusionary and constraining... because that's the definition of a role. That kind of thing seems to require a belief that you personally need a role & the role others are choosing is your business. Both of those things I don't get or believe in
Growing up I have heard the word lipstick lesbian and pillow princess used often with its derogatory connotations attached, and these often felt like connected terms referring to the same person! I only ever wanted two qualities in my style: pretty in a feminine way, and comfortable to exist in. Sometimes even these two qualities clash, and then came the added challenge of shame (due to above terminology) and visibility - how to attract another girl without looking queer? Needless to say, my style journey was long and painful 😅
I've uploaded subtitles for this video, but haven't had the time to "proof read" them yet. I hope to do that in the upcoming week. Hope they're still ok for those of you who need it.
As mentioned in the video you can find my sources, information on my survey and the disclaimers in the description.
It's really interesting because in today's Chinese lesbian community, the idea of butchfem, or rather T for (Tomeboy) and P for (Pretty Girls) were similar to how the quote from Reggie (the butch lady from 1950s) said. The idea of butchfem dynamic here is not tied that much to appearances as Chinese culture puts less emphasis on aesthetic and more on the kind just roles (?) one is in during a butchfem lesbian relationship. So the idea of long hair, feminine looking Ts are very common, I'd say I even fall into that category eventhough I am bi. And the idea that someone both is T and present masculine/adopt masculine traits as well as assuming the identity of T has its own subcategory, which is called 铁T (direct translated into iron butch I guess but it's not as simple as it sounds and very heavily characterized by Chinese societal context that's hard to explain in one comment). And the idea of P which is an equivalent of femme, is one that also doesn't desonate to appearance mostly. It is more defined by one's role in a relationship's...private times lol. And there is H which just means one switches. I meet a lot of Chinese lesbian/sapphic friends through creative and writing and art scene, and it is literally impossible to tell almost always who is the T or the P in the relationship (unless the T is 铁T which means they would advertly adopt masculine traits), unless like they directly tells you and define it themselves etc
Also worth noting gender roles in Chinese community is not as pronounced in appearance than in the west (not saying misogyny and standard of beauty do not exist, but they are tuned down in Chinese culture especially in the north where I'm from). Maybe contrary to popular belief but nothern Chinese women are characterized by kind of an inheritent defying of gender norms of being very masculine in the sense that no one is western-standard of soft spoken or gentle (which is also an East Asian stereotype of women being more quiet and submissive, always make me laugh out loud for someone from the west who believes to be true unironically). This creates a lesbian culture that the idea of T and P usually are used as definitions for finding a partner or the roles a couple assumes during their relationship, and can almost never be presumed or discerned by gender presentation, and assuming someone's T or P based on appearrances will usually just confuse what I think is the definition of butch and fem in the western sphere. Even the foundational writer of Chinese lesbian community, Qiu Miaojin, who would be defined as possibly a traditional butch because she lived mostly in the western sphere of queer community, described herself in her book Last Words from Montmartre by stating that her hair has grown longer and she feels like she has become more feminine, despite it never seemingly comes to much debate about her T or P alignment.
I'm not gonna lie, as a black bisexual woman with a complicated relationship with womanhood and femininity, I have felt alienated by the term femme. Femme has just felt like something that was not made with someone like me in mind. There is only so many times you can hear that femme is a lesbian term before you give up and just say "fuck it, keep your term then!". Combine that with the struggle to even feel feminine enough to claim the term aesthetically, and it leads me to not see myself as femme at all. I kind of wish there was a more popular term for black femmes, in the same way that stud is used (that is more relevant than fish). I appreciate you making this video because it is irritating constantly seeing this argument online in passive-aggressive ways. I don't know if I will go on to call myself femme, but I will at least feel more like I can if I want to in the future.
I understand your struggles..I am a femme lesbian brown woman... attracted mostly to other females but also I love masc energy in women .. absolutely not in men...
Femme is french for woman, it's pronounced [fam]
When I discovered the English part of the lgbt family I founded it so weird to use a word that mean woman to describe a specific type of woman 😂😅
I learned so much from this!! Thank you for all your research and for making it really accessible for those of us who may be newer to queer history. And yes, the infighting and policing of other people's identities really needs to stop. To me, queerness is (and should be) expansive. I have not rejected heteronormativity only to squeeze my complex self into another rigid framework defined by somebody else.
Amen! (and thank you)
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
The trans femme label got me to understand myself more. I am a bisexuell trans femme married to a bisexuell cis femme, happy with the situation 💕
the work and effort you put into making this video is incredible!
Hey thanks, this is really good. I'm fem(me), I guess? Like nonbinary and feminine but pretty ambivalent about femme identity due to the gatekeeping you discuss in this video, but I definitely relate to the concept of consciously constructed queer/trans femininity AND to femininity in a kinda ~sapphic but not necessarily monosexual lesbian context. And idk just, thanks for this, good video.
Thank you so much for your representation and varied perspectives ❤
This was such an interesting watch! I’m transmasc and pretty exclusively date transfems, and we often refer to those relationships as butch/femme. I think for me, butchness is about a performance I am doing specifically to appeal to women - I’ve definitely felt an expectation and pressure to be available and appealing to cis men, even (and tbh in some ways especially) post-transition, and refusing this and focusing my sexuality and performance of sexuality towards women feels really liberating.
In terms of my partners’ femme-ness, I think there’s a lot to be said about the economics. People do talk about how butchfemme is historically working class, and transphobia and transmisogyny especially absolutely make trans people statistically a social underclass. My partners’ femininity is treated as a ‘bad’ femininity, both because of general transmisogyny but also because economic transmisogyny has meant most of them have engaged in sex work at least occasionally in the past.
The one thing I don’t see my experience in here is the discussion of femme invisibility - although as you mentioned, I do think that is a primarily cissexual experience. I don’t personally pass as straight (as a straight man or as a straight woman), and my partners are pretty much never read as cishet women. I experience more queerphobic street harassment in these butchfemme partnerships than I ever did dating men (even when I was/am read as a cis man). I actually don’t agree with participant 7 on this - I don’t think it’s an ‘especially if they’re cis’ situation, but a ‘this basically only applies if you are read as a cis woman’ thing.
Such a well-done video! So well researched and so so important with all of the sweeping, unfounded generalizations on the internet right now
Appreciate all the work you put in making this video.
Endelig er du tilbake 🥹🙏 We missed you…
thanks a lot for the informative takes and reading material on this video. tbh i held some of these incorrect views on fem(me) and i'm glad i've been able to learn more about the openness of the term and identities.
i'd also love to see you do a deep dive on butch (bc i'm a butch myself and i have a lot more reading behind me than i do on femme)💖
this is so interesting, thanks ! but as a French, using a term in another language to identify an identity seem really confusing because it cannot be used in the original language of the term you are using since it already means something ! since Femme means Woman in French :/ and even if it is not used that way, well in French we are at lost because of that !
Haha 100%! As you can tell it IS a very confusing identity and for French people I guess even more so
@ true haha , and it is okay to not perfectly clear sometimes I think , it s better to find ways to be clear than to fight about it anyway 😅 I m non binary and since I present most of the time fem , people labels me as a woman and in the international queer community sometimes as Femme , which triggers me since it is the word meaning woman in French , so thank you for seeing I the confusion and even Pain it can create for French speaking people ! I do think we should have an English term so that as French we can create one instead of Femme though
Wow! As you went throughout evolutions/branches of the world...I felt more connected to the word, at the start I was feeling very distant from the words origins. Fascinating stuff! I'll be sharing this video with my friends for sure.
....
OMG AROACES AND ACES WERE MENTIONED❤🎉!!!! Even black women's struggles were touched upon? I'm surprised. 😮 👍🏾
I am a nonbinary omnisexual femme top and I am looking forward to watching this video. I struggle to be seen correctly. It would so much easier for me to date if I presented butch. In some ways the community still feels like it works in a traditionally gendered way.
Im open to the idea Ive been so thoroughly indoctrinated into radical neoliberal individualism that I can't understand certain concepts but.... what is the point of all this? All of this presumes I should fit into some kind of role or that other's are entitled to a set of predefined behavior from me. I guess what Im driving at is: *why is it just an assumption that people have identities?*
Who am I? Im me. I was someone who like Mystic frozen pizzas, I ate a bunch of them, & now Im someone who can't stand them. I do what I like, I do what I don't like, I like what I didn't like, I don't like what I did like, I don't do what I don't like. Everything about me is constantly changing as I interact with the world. Sure I have a few preferences that have been stable. Ive never been attracted to women or desired a romantic relationship with one. But if that situation occurred Id be open to it
All these conversations seem to be about "redefining the role because it excluded [X] group" or came with "[X] expectation that is problematic" or "this role should not be allowed for [X] reason". It all seems kinda pointless. A role is always going to be exclusionary and constraining... because that's the definition of a role. That kind of thing seems to require a belief that you personally need a role & the role others are choosing is your business. Both of those things I don't get or believe in
Growing up I have heard the word lipstick lesbian and pillow princess used often with its derogatory connotations attached, and these often felt like connected terms referring to the same person!
I only ever wanted two qualities in my style: pretty in a feminine way, and comfortable to exist in. Sometimes even these two qualities clash, and then came the added challenge of shame (due to above terminology) and visibility - how to attract another girl without looking queer?
Needless to say, my style journey was long and painful 😅
BEST VIDEO EVER!!! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! 😭💕
Thank You!
my pet peeve is that you inverted femme and fem, a femme in butchfemme, but fem is in queer feminity.
Holyyyy cow