I worked at a shop that the supervisor said we had to punch out to unload a truck. I did not do this. Never heard anything about. Because it is not legal. The reasoning was to save the company money. Imagine getting injured while unloading. What a mess that would be.
Happened to me once. I screwed up a expensive one off part. The owner told me I was going to work for free to make a new one. After I pointed out the legal issues. I agreed to fix this and any future mistakes I make, IF I get a cut on the profits from this and all future jobs I work on. That was the end of the work for “free” conversation.
Been there, done that. I got paid for it. I was an apprentice and not getting paid that much. I also got written up for making to many competed parts in a shift. I work the night shift and we had fewer employees working. The night shift was non-union and the day shift was union workers. We stressed out the day shift by completion of more part with few people. The union rep did an investigation and figured out it was me making to many parts and got a warning. It was in the 80’s and I can’t remember the exact words he used but yes I did too well of a job. Thanks for sharing.
The owner of the shop is responsible also if he's not providing all the proper tools and equipment's. I've had the experience of that when I began in the trade. The shop had not enough clamping for all the cnc mills in the shop. And because of that, the part I was asked to bore and mill, one of the part moved on me. Luckily the part could be fix by the welding dept. But still the shop owner did place the responsibility of the damage part. In one other situation, I was asked on a manual lathe to punch a hole on 1/2 thick circular harden steel plate with a spade drill with no coolant on that lathe, The problem with that job, at one point I experienced what happened when the main carbide insert of this 1.750" spade drill chipped, I witness the orange glow and by the time I stop and pulled out the tool, a good 2" of the tool was missing. I did save the part, but the owner did not like the idea of replacing that costly spade drill. At one point I did moved on an worked somewhere else. Because that shop owner had zero experience in machining, the only experience he had was from welding, since originally that's a welding shop.
Denny here in So CAL. DEFINATLY NOT LEGAL IN CAL! I know as a matter of fact as a shop foreman, technician, shop owner, and manager. In every shop, there SHOULD BE redundant processes in place to prevent most situations like this. That owner/management team would be in trouble with the California Labor Commission for just asking that of an employee.
Yup, totally agree. However much it might hurt, a mistake like that should have been caught during the quote preparation, not at the final stage after shipping the part. I think EVERY shop should start with: what's going to be the finishing process. FIRST, and foremost, how is the part going to be finished? This should always be the very first question. Once that's established then you can look at tolerances. Also, will the finisher have to plug certain holes before finishing or is that going to be your responsibility? After finishing, are you going to run the parts through your quality control people before shipping? Lastly, did anyone have a discussion with the machinist before work commenced? Thanks for doing these videos! Much appreciated! You're helping the entire industry!!! :)
I have worked as an I99 employee, as a subcontractor I am responsible. However I make more than anyone in the shop because I pay my own insurance, supply my own machinery,, in my case welders. One job went to paint was dropped the large frame off a truck and it came back extremely warped and that was a repair that I did get paid for! So it can go both ways!
over the years have heard machinists offer to fix mistakes for free and owner has accepted, have had interviews 30 years ago, owners have said any scrap is taken out of wages lol, them companies will not get or keep good machinists .
Refreshing to hear you speak about responsibility as it should be, everyone's, not the more common blame game we get. So as for the parts, if it's not on the print, not the machinists fault, print is gospel. If there was a note about plating then some direction should have been given from the top down because if the print has something along the lines of "plated to xyz standard" that means shit to a machinist. Planner or estimators should have placed a note "part will receive 5um xyz coating, please ensure this is taken into account when machining parts." Thats itinerary, problem solved. Working for free, I've stayed back on my own time to fix my own mistakes, but that's on me, not my employer.
A related note, your employer cannot take broken tools and machinery out of your pay (*I am not a lawyer and am speaking for the US)! They can fire you, they can lay you off for a period, but they absolutely cannot take money from you or your earned income. Highly recommend the US Department of Labor website, they have many great infographics about wage theft and worker's rights. My favorite one was a list of common lies that HR will tell you, and the exact statutes that are being violated. Each item of course followed by, "if your employer reads this and still doesn't comply, call us". I don't begrudge anyone making an honest mistake, US labor laws being a mess between the state and federal levels, so it is always best to start with a polite conversation to resolve the issue before threatening to turn your shop in for wage theft.
Yes, and if employees (machinists in particular) were responsible for the cost of replacing damaged tools or scrapped parts, none of us would do this job. The cost of the equipment we use is orders of magnitude higher than our wages. Coming to work would be such a huge financial liability for us that it would only make more sense to find other work. Mistakes happen, even to experienced tool makers... I'm not in that category, but I see it happen to them all the time. Of course nobody is trying to destroy parts, machines, or tools... and most people I know take it very hard and quite personally when they crash something. There's no reason to further punish people for honest mistakes.
My old job shop was like that , we were paid 90% of salary cuz we didn't make the quote or braking parts sometimes material cost would be uphold Where I work now it's day and night difference, every employee has access to all the jobs info, we know how much the tools cost , how much is the material and how much the parts sell for , we can see how much we make for the shop in a month and the average for the hour
I was a tool room machinist for over 40 years, never did I hear of an employer telling someone to fix something on their own time. I would add that I always kept an eye out for possible over sights such as the one you have mentioned. In this case that you have mentioned federal laws and regulations with the NLRB might supersede state laws.
I had an employer call me at home late at night (after 9 PM) and want me to come to the shop that night to correct an issue with quality of the product. And he wanted me to do it for free. The product was produced within the spec's given as I had the worksheet. I said no. He told me if I didn't come in that night and work all night for free so he could ship in the morning, I would be fired. I told him that you won't fire me as I quit. I had to take him to the Labour Board as he would not pay me for hours already worked.
I read the thread, there is definitely missing information. From experience this sounds like he’s made some mistakes before and this was the last one. So it’s “fix it yourself or hit the door” kind of situation. But that’s just reading between the lines. Not saying I agree, Ian said it best. I’m just offering my opinion.
@@iansandusky417 I didn’t say not at all, I said, not everyone is in the position to just up and go right away. You can also plan your exit if it can’t be worked out. What if employers fired you for anything at all? Think first. Talk and go from there.
The buck stops here attitude is true leadership. I’ve seen too many shop owners that want all the glory but none of the downside and will look to blame anyone they can. This is wrong. Mistakes happen. It’s how you deal with them is what matters. Solutions not scapegoating.
Simple email no that I wouldn't be willing to come in to work for free to fix a mistake then when the boss fires you for not doing it sue for retaliation
So the surface treatment brought the parts that were in spec when they left the shop out of spec. These people need to learn the difference between tolerance and allowance.
Contextually. It's not legal in the slightest. I would offer my time to learn how to cut the stuff the guy was trying to machine (Molybdenum), but I wouldn't blink an eye and leave if I was told to work for free/ pay for a mistake that I made because I don't know the material. Owner screwed the pooch. That should have been a prototype job order, one or two pieces. Those should have been poked and prodded until they were ABSOLUTELY perfect. THEN, once the part is good, you can run production.
It's wrong to work for nothing. But the worker needs to be looking for an out . Planning his escape . You still need to have money coming in . Some of us are only living week to week . Hang in there find another job .
Do the work for free. And you wonder why nobody (except fools) will go near this trade. Couple this with the lower pay and high skill level needed.....
Mistakes happen. You aren't going to retain good machinists with that attitude. Most of the guys I work with are mortified when they make mistakes. It's not a matter of a lack of integrity.
As a machinist in Ontario it is refreshing to see a humble and common sense train of thought from an owner.
I worked at a shop that the supervisor said we had to punch out to unload a truck. I did not do this. Never heard anything about. Because it is not legal. The reasoning was to save the company money. Imagine getting injured while unloading. What a mess that would be.
Happened to me once. I screwed up a expensive one off part. The owner told me I was going to work for free to make a new one.
After I pointed out the legal issues. I agreed to fix this and any future mistakes I make, IF I get a cut on the profits from this and all future jobs I work on.
That was the end of the work for “free” conversation.
Been there, done that. I got paid for it. I was an apprentice and not getting paid that much. I also got written up for making to many competed parts in a shift. I work the night shift and we had fewer employees working. The night shift was non-union and the day shift was union workers. We stressed out the day shift by completion of more part with few people. The union rep did an investigation and figured out it was me making to many parts and got a warning. It was in the 80’s and I can’t remember the exact words he used but yes I did too well of a job. Thanks for sharing.
The owner of the shop is responsible also if he's not providing all the proper tools and equipment's. I've had the experience of that when I began in the trade. The shop had not enough clamping for all the cnc mills in the shop. And because of that, the part I was asked to bore and mill, one of the part moved on me. Luckily the part could be fix by the welding dept. But still the shop owner did place the responsibility of the damage part. In one other situation, I was asked on a manual lathe to punch a hole on 1/2 thick circular harden steel plate with a spade drill with no coolant on that lathe, The problem with that job, at one point I experienced what happened when the main carbide insert of this 1.750" spade drill chipped, I witness the orange glow and by the time I stop and pulled out the tool, a good 2" of the tool was missing. I did save the part, but the owner did not like the idea of replacing that costly spade drill. At one point I did moved on an worked somewhere else. Because that shop owner had zero experience in machining, the only experience he had was from welding, since originally that's a welding shop.
My mom made me wash dishes from age 7 until I graduated high school, unpaid! Might just call a lawyer after seeing this. That'll teach her a lesson
100% well put.
Denny here in So CAL. DEFINATLY NOT LEGAL IN CAL! I know as a matter of fact as a shop foreman, technician, shop owner, and manager. In every shop, there SHOULD BE redundant processes in place to prevent most situations like this. That owner/management team would be in trouble with the California Labor Commission for just asking that of an employee.
Yup, totally agree.
However much it might hurt, a mistake like that should have been caught during the quote preparation, not at the final stage after shipping the part.
I think EVERY shop should start with: what's going to be the finishing process. FIRST, and foremost, how is the part going to be finished? This should always be the very first question.
Once that's established then you can look at tolerances. Also, will the finisher have to plug certain holes before finishing or is that going to be your responsibility?
After finishing, are you going to run the parts through your quality control people before shipping?
Lastly, did anyone have a discussion with the machinist before work commenced?
Thanks for doing these videos! Much appreciated! You're helping the entire industry!!! :)
I have worked as an I99 employee, as a subcontractor I am responsible. However I make more than anyone in the shop because I pay my own insurance, supply my own machinery,, in my case welders. One job went to paint was dropped the large frame off a truck and it came back extremely warped and that was a repair that I did get paid for! So it can go both ways!
over the years have heard machinists offer to fix mistakes for free and owner has accepted, have had interviews 30 years ago, owners have said any scrap is taken out of wages lol, them companies will not get or keep good machinists .
Refreshing to hear you speak about responsibility as it should be, everyone's, not the more common blame game we get. So as for the parts, if it's not on the print, not the machinists fault, print is gospel. If there was a note about plating then some direction should have been given from the top down because if the print has something along the lines of "plated to xyz standard" that means shit to a machinist. Planner or estimators should have placed a note "part will receive 5um xyz coating, please ensure this is taken into account when machining parts." Thats itinerary, problem solved. Working for free, I've stayed back on my own time to fix my own mistakes, but that's on me, not my employer.
A related note, your employer cannot take broken tools and machinery out of your pay (*I am not a lawyer and am speaking for the US)! They can fire you, they can lay you off for a period, but they absolutely cannot take money from you or your earned income. Highly recommend the US Department of Labor website, they have many great infographics about wage theft and worker's rights. My favorite one was a list of common lies that HR will tell you, and the exact statutes that are being violated. Each item of course followed by, "if your employer reads this and still doesn't comply, call us". I don't begrudge anyone making an honest mistake, US labor laws being a mess between the state and federal levels, so it is always best to start with a polite conversation to resolve the issue before threatening to turn your shop in for wage theft.
Yes, and if employees (machinists in particular) were responsible for the cost of replacing damaged tools or scrapped parts, none of us would do this job. The cost of the equipment we use is orders of magnitude higher than our wages. Coming to work would be such a huge financial liability for us that it would only make more sense to find other work. Mistakes happen, even to experienced tool makers... I'm not in that category, but I see it happen to them all the time. Of course nobody is trying to destroy parts, machines, or tools... and most people I know take it very hard and quite personally when they crash something. There's no reason to further punish people for honest mistakes.
My old job shop was like that , we were paid 90% of salary cuz we didn't make the quote or braking parts sometimes material cost would be uphold
Where I work now it's day and night difference, every employee has access to all the jobs info, we know how much the tools cost , how much is the material and how much the parts sell for , we can see how much we make for the shop in a month and the average for the hour
I was a tool room machinist for over 40 years, never did I hear of an employer telling someone to fix something on their own time. I would add that I always kept an eye out for possible over sights such as the one you have mentioned. In this case that you have mentioned federal laws and regulations with the NLRB might supersede state laws.
I agree - this is a very weird situation, and it was disheartening to hear how common it seems to be out there!
Yes sir I use to be a Shop Forman for CNC Milling
He can threaten you but definitely not threat you!!!
I had an employer call me at home late at night (after 9 PM) and want me to come to the shop that night to correct an issue with quality of the product. And he wanted me to do it for free. The product was produced within the spec's given as I had the worksheet. I said no. He told me if I didn't come in that night and work all night for free so he could ship in the morning, I would be fired. I told him that you won't fire me as I quit. I had to take him to the Labour Board as he would not pay me for hours already worked.
You can only be fired, not charged for anything nor be docked for pay.
End of story.
🤐
JIM
Worked for an jerk like that before. Key word, BEFORE but no longer 👍
good video,,thanks for your time
Thank you very much for checking it out!
had this happen the first place i worked. i stood my ground on this working for free. got punished ,then found another job within the week and walked.
That's the way to do it! These skills are too valuable to be wasted at a place that pulls this nonsense.
I read the thread, there is definitely missing information. From experience this sounds like he’s made some mistakes before and this was the last one. So it’s “fix it yourself or hit the door” kind of situation. But that’s just reading between the lines. Not saying I agree, Ian said it best. I’m just offering my opinion.
I would laugh as I rolled my box out the door. 🤷
10000000% yes!
Not everyone can do that.
@@egx161 why not? Man, places are offering $5000 sign on bonuses right now.
@@iansandusky417 I didn’t say not at all, I said, not everyone is in the position to just up and go right away. You can also plan your exit if it can’t be worked out. What if employers fired you for anything at all? Think first. Talk and go from there.
@@egx161 nah man, if an employer is abusing you to the point of not paying you for labour - you don’t have a real job to lose anyway
Hey, you got paid to screw them up! You should get paid to fix 'em.
The buck stops here attitude is true leadership. I’ve seen too many shop owners that want all the glory but none of the downside and will look to blame anyone they can. This is wrong. Mistakes happen. It’s how you deal with them is what matters. Solutions not scapegoating.
When an employee comes up with a process or idea will the employer pay him for that?
Simple email no that I wouldn't be willing to come in to work for free to fix a mistake then when the boss fires you for not doing it sue for retaliation
So the surface treatment brought the parts that were in spec when they left the shop out of spec. These people need to learn the difference between tolerance and allowance.
Def illegal in the states if you are an employee on the payroll.
You can not change what you are willing to tolerate. AND NO ONE WORKS FOR FREE
as the owner - i am probaly the one that does most errors lol
Contextually. It's not legal in the slightest. I would offer my time to learn how to cut the stuff the guy was trying to machine (Molybdenum), but I wouldn't blink an eye and leave if I was told to work for free/ pay for a mistake that I made because I don't know the material.
Owner screwed the pooch. That should have been a prototype job order, one or two pieces. Those should have been poked and prodded until they were ABSOLUTELY perfect. THEN, once the part is good, you can run production.
It's wrong to work for nothing. But the worker needs to be looking for an out . Planning his escape
. You still need to have money coming in . Some of us are only living week to week . Hang in there find another job .
I bet the guy who made the mistake felt bad about it .
Do the work for free.
And you wonder why nobody (except fools) will go near this trade. Couple this with the lower pay and high skill level needed.....
Your videos have great subjects, but you seriously say one thing, then say it 10 more times 10 different ways.
This is true, but I'm glad he's trying. Something he could have done here is coming up with a few examples from the law and showing that.
You do not need to assume there telling the truth! LOL Employees almost never take responsibility. That's why there still just employees!
Man, this attitude is garbage.
Boo.
You have a liberal outlook and obviously suffer from a bit of the same lack of integrity and ownership the employee had as well.
Lmao ok man cool comment
Mistakes happen. You aren't going to retain good machinists with that attitude. Most of the guys I work with are mortified when they make mistakes. It's not a matter of a lack of integrity.
@Kevin Wayne
Watch between the 9-10 min mark Ian says everything that goes out the door has his name on it.