Thanks for taking up this topic Ian! The ability to easily order tools, tool holders and even machines is often the key to success in the workshop. We at HAIMER have heard this again and again in recent years and for this reason we rolled out our own HAIMER SHOP for Germany and Austria in October. The US and other countries will follow in 2024. Based on our initial experiences, it's clear to say that providing data and marrying traditional organisational structures with new digital sales channels is a challenge. And it keeps us busy every day. But in the end, it is such an important capability that manufacturers and retailers simply have to offer. After all, it's almost 2024!
traditional sales structures dont work in the modern age. there is no need for endless middle men and their mark up as well as piss poor service. sell direct.
I could only get in 4:00 minutes before reaching full... I've owned & run businesses off & on for 40 yrs. I'm officially 'ancient' now, but not inert. I took up machining almost 10 yrs ago, shortly after my wife went to work for MSC. All of the businesses I owned & operated depended on both tools & materials & all were pre Internet, hell, pre-computer. If you are having problems finding tooling & inserts in this day & age, you are not trying very hard. Scenario 1: You break tooling. (I'm not going to address breaking an insert & not having more. If you are so shoestring budget wise you can't buy 50 inserts at a shot, quit now & get a job working for someone. I just priced inserts for a new boring bar I'm looking at. Price for 10 was X; in 3 minutes I found qty 50 for 2.5X. Buy enough you have spares, you're running machines which cost 10's of 1,000's.) Ok, broken tool. Call your sales contact at one of your suppliers. You don't have a contact at any suppliers? Not MSC, McMaster, nobody? Why the f not? You may not buy much, but set up an account, make a contact BEFORE it's an emergency. Buy their sales stuff for you operation, if budget's an issue, a machine shop needs a diverse group of things from gloves to replacement machines, shop for deals if you have to, but have an ace in the hole, a big supplier when you need something to keep production going. Is paying 30% more an issue if you can get it tomorrow & get back to work vs next week? No. If you get caught with no contact, go to effing Amazon. The only cheaper place you can get stuff is China via eBay, (lots of low dollar sellers now have US warehouses.) Scenario 2. You need tooling or inserts & it's not an emergency. You want US/Euro made? Big name supplier... face it. Small places may be better price, but will be hit & miss on selection. Manufacturers rarely sell direct. It's the deal they have w/ companies like MSC, McMaster, Grainger, etc, who buy 1,000's of pieces of product. It's called, "Don't compete with your customers, stupid." Been that way for a long time; auto parts industry used to be better, they've went to chit. Industrial still has structure. Oh, here's an inside scoop: small size distributors buy from MSC, McMaster, etc., they can't buy enough to buy direct; manufacturers in US/Euro typically have minimum qty rules. You want import/Chinese/Indian? Might as well buy the same stuff the big names buy & resell or re-label & resell. If you have the time to look, (which I do, being ancient), here's the kinds of deals you can find. I'm pricing & sourcing a boring head & bars. A head & indexed bar set is too pricey for me. MSC has best price on head & shanks. Bars are another issue. One bar, ¾ × 5.9" eBay: bar + 10 inserts $24.00 free S&H, 18-21 days Ali Express: bar $2.04, free S&H, 18-22 days. Same identical bar. Different Chinese manufacturer. The Ali Express deal was a 1st time customer buy. Other AliExpress pricing was as low as 18.00 for same package as eBay, identical. If you're a small shop or starting out, you foolish to get hung up on brand name stuff in simple indexed tooling & inserts. eBay can be gold mines for inserts if you're looking for brand names. Last time I stocked up, I found Mitsubishi inserts in 20 & 40 qty for peanuts, I wanna say < 0.20 ea. I also found another big name I bought 20-30 of for similar price, but can't recall name, 'cause I'm ancient. A few days ago, a different length boring I found came w/ 11 Sandvik inserts, 1-C5 & 10-C4's. It was the best priced combo of bar & inserts, w/ a bonus insert! I also have some generic inserts I bought from China via eBay. I have all my inserts mixed together in a box I made w/ little welding rod posts, so I don't have to dig through drawers looking. I have pieces if foam on the groups of posts & sections for different shapes, grades & new vs used, (2 of 3 points good, but changed for different grade.) I use a red paint pen & mark blown out points, if I put them back in inventory, (saves a lot of squinting) Here's something I discovered 'cause I'm ancient & can experiment: don't be afraid to use a diamond emory board on an insert to hone it up, new or used. You'ĺl be surprised at the difference. Msg me, if you want to pick my brain on biz issues. Started my 1st auto repair biz at 15. Been through a lot in 70 yrs. Biggest fault of colleges & trade schools is they teach you a skill/trade, but don't teach you squat about running a biz, even in a field where MOST go into biz for selves. GeoD
I got into the undustry in 2006 - THIS has been my biggest complaint. Distributors and tool dealers are soooooo slow. The knowledge is dwindling to the point where I typically know a lot more than they do. Therefore, they add nothing other than cost and complexity when all I need is a small quantity of tools. Hope this changes things.
@@DieselRamcharger That limits your options. A lot of the best and most unique tools are not sold that way. If you are happy shopping with limited choice, that can be fine.
I’ve been using them for a bit now and I’m honestly shocked at the price point versus performance. I’ve had inserts that cost three times as much and don’t show any real better performance. Highly recommend as well!
Used to work as a prototype machinist where availability of every tool and the speed I could get it was absolutely critical. Biggest hold up I've ever had as a machinist is exactly what this video is addressing- at least in America, tool companies are HORRIBLE with websites. It's 2023 guys- I don't even want an excuse anymore. I shouldn't have to talk to human beings to buy my tools. I know the helix angle, the carbide grade, the nose radius, etc on what I want. Put your inserts on websites exactly like that and make ordering inserts and tools that everyone uses straightforward and quick. I've done everything from hard grinding ceramics with diamond tooling, to nickel superalloys used in jet engine manufacturer, to exotic tool steels to weird elements like pure molybdenum. Occasionally you need a tool seller to find something specific for really weird things in mass production. But usually I have a good idea of what I need. Just make buying it quick!!! This is why I normally dealt through MSC- at least they have a half-functioning website. They still don't have things like a basic checkbox for split point drills though! It's amazing how horrible buying straightforward tools in America as a machinist is. There's just no excuse for this anymore and there hasn't been for years
Right! This is my standpoint as well - I’m shocked to see how many people don’t seem to find this an issue - even with my current network it can be a HUGE hold up in the quoting process when I need pricing on a tool I don’t hold on the shelf for a job, and I need that pricing to get the quote out the door! As you say - it’s 2023 - there’s no excuse for not having at least ballpark pricing (that can get better if you’re buying volume of course) - available on the website.
As my own website developer (after hiring 4 others who did not have the skills they hyped they had), doing a woocommerce or product site to handle all that tooling would take a huge crew a long time to get a site like that to work. It is awesome that you found a source that took the time and effort!
Spot on I can’t believe how hard it is to buy anything here in Canada. Deboer is pritty good but limited. Any of the tool suppliers with salesman is a multi hoop jumping process and usually have part of your order and you have to go elsewhere to get the rest or they offer something other than what you want
I order my 99% of my tools and tooling from pt solutions, I've used many others in the past. I can type in what I'm looking for it shows me how many they have and how many the manufacturers have. I've learned from experience that if you stay with a supplier the more you buy the lower pricing you get.
I have been through the same problem, only Three employees. Limited suppliers can or are willing to sell inserts for older tooling off the shelf. Manual machines only, and they are worked hard, i decided to try chikny imported inserts to keep us going, Now i buy 6,8,10 boxes same cost of (One branded box) of inserts at a time for roughing and they excellent, for roughing (superb), but i still keep to branded for finishing passes. your speed and feeds are higher, see how it goes. I would prefer to buy a brand name, but the percentages/performance is financially major.
Ive actually bought a few tools with inserts off of Amazon with the mindset that it's cheap and if it breaks im not out a lot of money. The shell mill actually works very well . Thank you for this. We do better when making things amd not slogging through websites on insert searches.
In 1977 I took a job in inside sales at a small, but serious tool distributer in Denver. I had only applied for the delivery driver ppl opinion, but my future boss showed me a stack of applications and said hardly any of them had the shop and mfg. experience that I had, and would I please try sales? (Inside sales.) It sounds like even with the Web, things are pretty much the same. Sales people making promises that Production can't deliver? Check!
I worked as a local cutting tool distributor for many years, this is not a problem in my state. You call in the office and get pricing and availability on basic stuff right on the phone. Stock is a much bigger issue as these companies don't make huge amounts of profits to justify stocking hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of carbide in thousands of brands/grades. They will likely sell you something similar they stock for a competitive price.They likely will not stock generic no name inserts for 5$ each, and will have something similar like Iscar for 8$ on the shelf. The sales people are high quality as well and do more than just punch in EPD #'s. They walk customers through everything the need to order the correct tools (there is often a lot to know/usually lots of questions they need to ask). Some even go as far as helping companies processes engineer ways to make their parts, make huge increases in production, and can bring in free "test tools". Also don't use outside reps for stuff you need quoted and ordered right away, call the office and use the people who are at a CPU all day doing quotes/orders.
This describes the concept and intent of a sales/tool rep but in reality it’s seldom that wonderful. It’s usually , you supply the part number or edp of exactly what you want and then go back and forth with multiple emails and phone calls chasing your request around for days and sometimes weeks . Maybe this is just in Canada
Yes, you wont get good service from big chains and web sites. You need to work with the local tooling distributors closest to you (look for 1 day ground shipping if in rural areas). Also to minimize the calls an chasing, that is somewhat explained in my post about brands/stock. To further elaborate on it you call a vendor with your list of epd #'s of exactly what you want. They quote all kinds of different stuff simply because its the brands they sell and stock. Not all vendors are even allowed to sell every brand of tool. The wholesalers themselves (kennametal, Iscar, Sanvik, ect) often don't let the vendor (who you buy from) carry their line if they have the competitor's. So it is best to try and go with the brands your vendor are trying to offer/quote. Or just simplify your ordering and tell them what type of tools you need, not brands and edp #'s. Let them fill your tooling order/quote with the lines they sell/stock. @@Jonnywoods_049
@@noneya574 I’m talking about ordering a brand that they carry and they being a local tool rep. You’re assuming every tool rep everywhere is good and you would be incorrect. Not all sales people know what they are talking about or care
It’s almost as if pricing is a liability to some suppliers, and they would rather groom the consumer into just ordering and paying when the product shows up rather than supply answers to the most asked questions. Price Time availability Location
One man shop. Sorry wont buy from you if i have to deal with a distributor. The days of the middle man slowing me down are long gone for me. Even if I to pay a few bucks more doesnt outweigh the cost of not making chips while I am dealing with sales. I click order and arrives next day for my vendor.
The dorks at harvey tool are the worst, they claim easy ordering and then you cant order on their own website and you have to deal with the run around from vendors that dont care at all. But on all of harveys marketing they claim fast shipping in stock blah blah blah but they dont even sell stuff, then it takes 3 weeks when you go through the "vendor".
Ohmagurd its soo friggin frustrating jumping through their stupid friggin hoops to find out you can't even order direct. It's made me want to never use a particular brand ever again. It's pissing me off just thinking about it right now. And I'm a chill dude I swear, that's how bad it is.
I’m a big fan of buying direct from the website, I wish we could do it more up here. I do buy a bit of deBoer, I’ve never used the brand you mentioned.
Completely different here in India. I want a certain endmill, an insert, or even a specific grade of any tool, I can goto a local store, qnd buy it right away. If its not available, ill get it next day with an overnight charge of 5$. Or if i wanna buy in a quantity, i can goto a b2b marketplace, call the supplier and get catalogue and pricing and purchase right away, sometimes in a single call. But with some businesses, its like i make a request, they send me a quote, i negotiate and agree and raise request for pi, they send me pi, i make payment and share details, they verify payment, and queue for dispatch, then they dispatch and share the cargo details and i reach the cargo office at described time with my stamps and letterhead and recive the product. Such a stupid thing. Also its a problem when you cannot afford to stock everything whereas a big company can keep a stock even through a long purchase cycle. Though here we may not have an extreme variety of item but things are readily available and are priced correctly. And shipping is good and fast over here.
Is this a local issue or the same in all of The U.S ? Here in Sweden and i assume most part of Europe the major brands have their own webshops with pricing and inventory, 95% of the time i have the Tools delivered the following day if i order before 3 PM. Sandvik,OSG,Ceratizit,ISCAR,SECO,Walter,AURA are a few i order from that have their own sites, some smaller brands are sold by distributors with their own webshops. The distributors without webshops are almost extinct..
Do you not have a local tooling house? In Ca we use Western Tool. If they don't have some thing we need in house, they can get it for us. We make one call to tell them what we need and they send us a quote with price and lead times. Spending time getting 3 quotes from three different places is just not worth the effort and time involved. Any savings to be had is burned up in time on the phone or sending emails.
@@janeblogs324 If your job is doing nothing else but purchasing, then shopping around is kinda part of the job description. If you're in a small shop wearing multiple hats then the time spent making phone calls is time not making parts. What you'll find is that most suppliers are very close on price for most items. A 2% savings isn't worth the time on a $100 box of inserts.
All those crappy sales reps better be looking for a new line of work because AI is gonna crush them. I order maybe $15,000 of tooling a year and the reps treat me like I’m a nuisance. I don’t even care about the price. I just need what I need when I need it. I don’t have enough time to do my work, I definitely don’t have time to spend my whole day badgering reps.
This is for sure not the most efficient way to order tools. The techmet thing is a great tool to add to the arsenal, but I think you really missed on building relationships with your vendors. I've helped start a few shops and the very first thing done at each place is get accounts setup with the local vendors and getting them all into the shop to explain our needs in person. Gotta know what brands they sell and stock. Keep a list or line cards available for reference. You also didn't talk about the fact that us as programmers should be responsible for knowing our tooling and planning around lead times. If you see a 2 week lead time on some inserts, you need to select a different insert. Of course none of this applies if you don't have good local vendors which is why I never recommend opening a shop where you don't have a good local supply chain. I do think every brand needs to offer an online purchasing option. I don't understand waiting on a quote from a local vendor knowing they won't have it in stock and will drop ship from the vendor. However there is something to be said about ordering all through your vendors and keeping that relationship good so they will help you when you need them.
I definitely agree that having a good relationship with your vendors - tooling or otherwise - is going to be key to having a functioning machine shop that can actually get parts out the door. Where I think this solution outlined really shines is for smaller shops where you don't get the attention and diligence from vendors that larger, more profitable accounts for them might get. I can remember when I first started, we bought virtually everything through one vendor - even though we were ultimately getting hosed on pricing - because they were the only ones who would give us the time of day. Everything you said is fantastic advice though - every option has a role in your supply chain if you use it correctly!
Manufacturers in the US & Europe tend to have qty minimums & abide by the "Don't compete w/ your customers.", otherwise, why would MSC, McMaster, Fastenal, Grainger buy 100 or 1,000's of items, to have in stock. If a manufacturer does sell direct, you'll pay a premium, 'cause 'Don't compete w/ customers.' Smaller distributors typically by from the big ones I listed above. There are places that are drop ship suppliers, Walmart started an 'industrial supplier' company. They sell on Amazon... Zero? Something like that, 4 letters. No inventory, drop ship everything. No product knowledge or support.
@@iansandusky417 Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've only ever had the issue of being treated like a small company with machine dealers, and never vendors, but I'm also the guy that will break out some brews in the shop with reps and take them to lunch to keep them happy to come back.
yeah, its one of the reasons i have left that continent tbh. distributers and dealers.. so slow, bad for business, with an air of scammyness everytime. Europe does it much better. Websites with prices and delivery times and you can order without having to speak with some phone warrior.
Don't you guys have local tooling reps? I live in Adelaide, Australia. It's a tiny town and we get almost everything same day or overnight. Seems like it's a case of not being organised. Or just fluffing this website.
Sounds like you are dealing with the wrong distributors. Here is Ontario, we still have a family owned distributor that has next day delivery on most top brands. I have never had an issue with getting tooling!
Not buying it mate sorry. Don't matter if you're a one man shop you must have your supply chain all set-up. How come you are making a job and from a sudden you have to find out where to buy the inserts you are already using? That should be addressed before making the first chip.
While I agree with you 100%, that is not always the reality of the situation at least for us. We are a shop with 40 plus machines and 10 machinists and we will often begin a job with no thought to tooling. I am slowly changing this as the "new" tool room manager, but it is still an up hill battle at times. We generally have no trouble getting tooling. We have a great local vendor who typically has a quote back to us in an hour or so. We also purchase from MSC several times/week and we stock quite a bit of tooling, some in a Matrix vending cabinet.
Im here in a small shop of 4 people,we are lucky enough to have a good supplier that has tools in stock and we usually buy the tools we need as the job comes
Chinese high feed cutter? No thank you. I prefer to keep an extra pack of inserts in my drawer. Ian you were at Pierson Workholding, just learn how to implement LEAN in your shop and you will never need to buy Chinese stuff again
@@65cj55 which car would you drive german VW or chinese Great Wall? And I do use chinese Sandvik drills and satisfied with them, but I will not use old copy if OSG high feed cutter with unknown coating
@@ov3753 The subject, is not Cars...the point is people say they will only buy German or Swiss tooling over U S or Japanese etc, it's called cognitive bias...but to answer your question, i would buy a Great Wall over a VW, specifically the Tank 300, they are getting great reviews and passing rigorous testing..
Thanks for taking up this topic Ian! The ability to easily order tools, tool holders and even machines is often the key to success in the workshop. We at HAIMER have heard this again and again in recent years and for this reason we rolled out our own HAIMER SHOP for Germany and Austria in October. The US and other countries will follow in 2024.
Based on our initial experiences, it's clear to say that providing data and marrying traditional organisational structures with new digital sales channels is a challenge. And it keeps us busy every day. But in the end, it is such an important capability that manufacturers and retailers simply have to offer. After all, it's almost 2024!
Thank you very much for checking it out! I'm excited to see the North American rollout of that program!
traditional sales structures dont work in the modern age. there is no need for endless middle men and their mark up as well as piss poor service. sell direct.
I could only get in 4:00 minutes before reaching full...
I've owned & run businesses off & on for 40 yrs. I'm officially 'ancient' now, but not inert. I took up machining almost 10 yrs ago, shortly after my wife went to work for MSC.
All of the businesses I owned & operated depended on both tools & materials & all were pre Internet, hell, pre-computer.
If you are having problems finding tooling & inserts in this day & age, you are not trying very hard.
Scenario 1: You break tooling. (I'm not going to address breaking an insert & not having more. If you are so shoestring budget wise you can't buy 50 inserts at a shot, quit now & get a job working for someone. I just priced inserts for a new boring bar I'm looking at. Price for 10 was X; in 3 minutes I found qty 50 for 2.5X. Buy enough you have spares, you're running machines which cost 10's of 1,000's.)
Ok, broken tool. Call your sales contact at one of your suppliers. You don't have a contact at any suppliers? Not MSC, McMaster, nobody? Why the f not?
You may not buy much, but set up an account, make a contact BEFORE it's an emergency. Buy their sales stuff for you operation, if budget's an issue, a machine shop needs a diverse group of things from gloves to replacement machines, shop for deals if you have to, but have an ace in the hole, a big supplier when you need something to keep production going. Is paying 30% more an issue if you can get it tomorrow & get back to work vs next week? No.
If you get caught with no contact, go to effing Amazon. The only cheaper place you can get stuff is China via eBay, (lots of low dollar sellers now have US warehouses.)
Scenario 2. You need tooling or inserts & it's not an emergency.
You want US/Euro made? Big name supplier... face it. Small places may be better price, but will be hit & miss on selection.
Manufacturers rarely sell direct. It's the deal they have w/ companies like MSC, McMaster, Grainger, etc, who buy 1,000's of pieces of product. It's called, "Don't compete with your customers, stupid." Been that way for a long time; auto parts industry used to be better, they've went to chit. Industrial still has structure.
Oh, here's an inside scoop: small size distributors buy from MSC, McMaster, etc., they can't buy enough to buy direct; manufacturers in US/Euro typically have minimum qty rules.
You want import/Chinese/Indian? Might as well buy the same stuff the big names buy & resell or re-label & resell.
If you have the time to look, (which I do, being ancient), here's the kinds of deals you can find.
I'm pricing & sourcing a boring head & bars. A head & indexed bar set is too pricey for me. MSC has best price on head & shanks. Bars are another issue.
One bar, ¾ × 5.9"
eBay: bar + 10 inserts $24.00 free S&H, 18-21 days
Ali Express: bar $2.04, free S&H, 18-22 days.
Same identical bar. Different Chinese manufacturer. The Ali Express deal was a 1st time customer buy.
Other AliExpress pricing was as low as 18.00 for same package as eBay, identical.
If you're a small shop or starting out, you foolish to get hung up on brand name stuff in simple indexed tooling & inserts.
eBay can be gold mines for inserts if you're looking for brand names. Last time I stocked up, I found Mitsubishi inserts in 20 & 40 qty for peanuts, I wanna say < 0.20 ea.
I also found another big name I bought 20-30 of for similar price, but can't recall name, 'cause I'm ancient.
A few days ago, a different length boring I found came w/ 11 Sandvik inserts, 1-C5 & 10-C4's. It was the best priced combo of bar & inserts, w/ a bonus insert!
I also have some generic inserts I bought from China via eBay. I have all my inserts mixed together in a box I made w/ little welding rod posts, so I don't have to dig through drawers looking.
I have pieces if foam on the groups of posts & sections for different shapes, grades & new vs used, (2 of 3 points good, but changed for different grade.)
I use a red paint pen & mark blown out points, if I put them back in inventory, (saves a lot of squinting)
Here's something I discovered 'cause I'm ancient & can experiment: don't be afraid to use a diamond emory board on an insert to hone it up, new or used. You'ĺl be surprised at the difference.
Msg me, if you want to pick my brain on biz issues. Started my 1st auto repair biz at 15. Been through a lot in 70 yrs.
Biggest fault of colleges & trade schools is they teach you a skill/trade, but don't teach you squat about running a biz, even in a field where MOST go into biz for selves.
GeoD
Haas tooling is a great option. I use them almost exclusively now.
Thanks! I'm volunteering on the restoration of the USS Texas and paying for lathe inserts out of my own pocket. A resource like this helps.
I got into the undustry in 2006 - THIS has been my biggest complaint.
Distributors and tool dealers are soooooo slow. The knowledge is dwindling to the point where I typically know a lot more than they do. Therefore, they add nothing other than cost and complexity when all I need is a small quantity of tools.
Hope this changes things.
now PTS is all I'm stuck with, and although their rep is cute as fuck, none of them know anything
im a small shop. never talked to tool dealer in my life. i order on line or go to my local tool crib and buy over the counter.
@@DieselRamcharger That limits your options. A lot of the best and most unique tools are not sold that way. If you are happy shopping with limited choice, that can be fine.
thanks for your time ian
I have used the tech met stuff. The inserts are high quality and the service is excellent.
I’ve been using them for a bit now and I’m honestly shocked at the price point versus performance. I’ve had inserts that cost three times as much and don’t show any real better performance. Highly recommend as well!
Used to work as a prototype machinist where availability of every tool and the speed I could get it was absolutely critical. Biggest hold up I've ever had as a machinist is exactly what this video is addressing- at least in America, tool companies are HORRIBLE with websites. It's 2023 guys- I don't even want an excuse anymore. I shouldn't have to talk to human beings to buy my tools. I know the helix angle, the carbide grade, the nose radius, etc on what I want. Put your inserts on websites exactly like that and make ordering inserts and tools that everyone uses straightforward and quick. I've done everything from hard grinding ceramics with diamond tooling, to nickel superalloys used in jet engine manufacturer, to exotic tool steels to weird elements like pure molybdenum. Occasionally you need a tool seller to find something specific for really weird things in mass production. But usually I have a good idea of what I need. Just make buying it quick!!! This is why I normally dealt through MSC- at least they have a half-functioning website. They still don't have things like a basic checkbox for split point drills though! It's amazing how horrible buying straightforward tools in America as a machinist is. There's just no excuse for this anymore and there hasn't been for years
Right! This is my standpoint as well - I’m shocked to see how many people don’t seem to find this an issue - even with my current network it can be a HUGE hold up in the quoting process when I need pricing on a tool I don’t hold on the shelf for a job, and I need that pricing to get the quote out the door!
As you say - it’s 2023 - there’s no excuse for not having at least ballpark pricing (that can get better if you’re buying volume of course) - available on the website.
As my own website developer (after hiring 4 others who did not have the skills they hyped they had), doing a woocommerce or product site to handle all that tooling would take a huge crew a long time to get a site like that to work. It is awesome that you found a source that took the time and effort!
Spot on I can’t believe how hard it is to buy anything here in Canada. Deboer is pritty good but limited. Any of the tool suppliers with salesman is a multi hoop jumping process and usually have part of your order and you have to go elsewhere to get the rest or they offer something other than what you want
I order my 99% of my tools and tooling from pt solutions, I've used many others in the past. I can type in what I'm looking for it shows me how many they have and how many the manufacturers have. I've learned from experience that if you stay with a supplier the more you buy the lower pricing you get.
I have been through the same problem, only Three employees. Limited suppliers can or are willing to sell inserts for older tooling off the shelf. Manual machines only, and they are worked hard, i decided to try chikny imported inserts to keep us going, Now i buy 6,8,10 boxes same cost of (One branded box) of inserts at a time for roughing and they excellent, for roughing (superb), but i still keep to branded for finishing passes. your speed and feeds are higher, see how it goes. I would prefer to buy a brand name, but the percentages/performance is financially major.
Thank you. I have experienced exactly what you were talking about. I will certainly try Techmet.
Carbide Depot, great to work with and the website isnt too bad. Charles
seconded.
Ive actually bought a few tools with inserts off of Amazon with the mindset that it's cheap and if it breaks im not out a lot of money. The shell mill actually works very well .
Thank you for this. We do better when making things amd not slogging through websites on insert searches.
In 1977 I took a job in inside sales at a small, but serious tool distributer in Denver. I had only applied for the delivery driver ppl opinion, but my future boss showed me a stack of applications and said hardly any of them had the shop and mfg. experience that I had, and would I please try sales?
(Inside sales.) It sounds like even with the Web, things are pretty much the same. Sales people making promises that Production can't deliver? Check!
Position, not opinion, of course.
I worked as a local cutting tool distributor for many years, this is not a problem in my state. You call in the office and get pricing and availability on basic stuff right on the phone. Stock is a much bigger issue as these companies don't make huge amounts of profits to justify stocking hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of carbide in thousands of brands/grades. They will likely sell you something similar they stock for a competitive price.They likely will not stock generic no name inserts for 5$ each, and will have something similar like Iscar for 8$ on the shelf. The sales people are high quality as well and do more than just punch in EPD #'s. They walk customers through everything the need to order the correct tools (there is often a lot to know/usually lots of questions they need to ask). Some even go as far as helping companies processes engineer ways to make their parts, make huge increases in production, and can bring in free "test tools". Also don't use outside reps for stuff you need quoted and ordered right away, call the office and use the people who are at a CPU all day doing quotes/orders.
This describes the concept and intent of a sales/tool rep but in reality it’s seldom that wonderful. It’s usually , you supply the part number or edp of exactly what you want and then go back and forth with multiple emails and phone calls chasing your request around for days and sometimes weeks . Maybe this is just in Canada
Yes, you wont get good service from big chains and web sites. You need to work with the local tooling distributors closest to you (look for 1 day ground shipping if in rural areas). Also to minimize the calls an chasing, that is somewhat explained in my post about brands/stock. To further elaborate on it you call a vendor with your list of epd #'s of exactly what you want. They quote all kinds of different stuff simply because its the brands they sell and stock. Not all vendors are even allowed to sell every brand of tool. The wholesalers themselves (kennametal, Iscar, Sanvik, ect) often don't let the vendor (who you buy from) carry their line if they have the competitor's. So it is best to try and go with the brands your vendor are trying to offer/quote. Or just simplify your ordering and tell them what type of tools you need, not brands and edp #'s. Let them fill your tooling order/quote with the lines they sell/stock. @@Jonnywoods_049
@@noneya574 I’m talking about ordering a brand that they carry and they being a local tool rep. You’re assuming every tool rep everywhere is good and you would be incorrect. Not all sales people know what they are talking about or care
Dude one hundred perfuckingcent. Just put them on your website and let me buy them…
It’s almost as if pricing is a liability to some suppliers, and they would rather groom the consumer into just ordering and paying when the product shows up rather than supply answers to the most asked questions.
Price
Time availability
Location
Thank you for the information. I enjoy your shop talk episodes 13:47
One man shop. Sorry wont buy from you if i have to deal with a distributor. The days of the middle man slowing me down are long gone for me. Even if I to pay a few bucks more doesnt outweigh the cost of not making chips while I am dealing with sales. I click order and arrives next day for my vendor.
The dorks at harvey tool are the worst, they claim easy ordering and then you cant order on their own website and you have to deal with the run around from vendors that dont care at all. But on all of harveys marketing they claim fast shipping in stock blah blah blah but they dont even sell stuff, then it takes 3 weeks when you go through the "vendor".
@@CMTeamCobra Who are you using? I asked harvey who is the fastest and they claimed they cant recommend one vendor over the other
Ohmagurd its soo friggin frustrating jumping through their stupid friggin hoops to find out you can't even order direct. It's made me want to never use a particular brand ever again. It's pissing me off just thinking about it right now. And I'm a chill dude I swear, that's how bad it is.
Cool! I didn't know, will shurly have a look.
Been using them for a few weeks now and the performance has been nothing but excellent for the price point so far!
I’m a big fan of buying direct from the website, I wish we could do it more up here.
I do buy a bit of deBoer, I’ve never used the brand you mentioned.
Thank god im at a university shop company’s kiss our asses like the big shops even though we have 3 machines and purchase maybe 5k a year
What tool is it?
Completely different here in India. I want a certain endmill, an insert, or even a specific grade of any tool, I can goto a local store, qnd buy it right away. If its not available, ill get it next day with an overnight charge of 5$. Or if i wanna buy in a quantity, i can goto a b2b marketplace, call the supplier and get catalogue and pricing and purchase right away, sometimes in a single call. But with some businesses, its like i make a request, they send me a quote, i negotiate and agree and raise request for pi, they send me pi, i make payment and share details, they verify payment, and queue for dispatch, then they dispatch and share the cargo details and i reach the cargo office at described time with my stamps and letterhead and recive the product. Such a stupid thing. Also its a problem when you cannot afford to stock everything whereas a big company can keep a stock even through a long purchase cycle. Though here we may not have an extreme variety of item but things are readily available and are priced correctly. And shipping is good and fast over here.
I'm glad I have a great supplier, and don't have to deal with this!
Is this a local issue or the same in all of The U.S ? Here in Sweden and i assume most part of Europe the major brands have their own webshops with pricing and inventory, 95% of the time i have the Tools delivered the following day if i order before 3 PM.
Sandvik,OSG,Ceratizit,ISCAR,SECO,Walter,AURA are a few i order from that have their own sites, some smaller brands are sold by distributors with their own webshops. The distributors without webshops are almost extinct..
yes, i think we are faster in europe
Do you not have a local tooling house? In Ca we use Western Tool. If they don't have some thing we need in house, they can get it for us. We make one call to tell them what we need and they send us a quote with price and lead times. Spending time getting 3 quotes from three different places is just not worth the effort and time involved. Any savings to be had is burned up in time on the phone or sending emails.
Maybe, but my phone calls take less than 10 minutes. Businesses love it when you have the part numbers and lingo ready to go
@@janeblogs324 If your job is doing nothing else but purchasing, then shopping around is kinda part of the job description. If you're in a small shop wearing multiple hats then the time spent making phone calls is time not making parts. What you'll find is that most suppliers are very close on price for most items. A 2% savings isn't worth the time on a $100 box of inserts.
Out of stock. Comes to mind. Or back ordered after they take your money.
All those crappy sales reps better be looking for a new line of work because AI is gonna crush them. I order maybe $15,000 of tooling a year and the reps treat me like I’m a nuisance. I don’t even care about the price. I just need what I need when I need it. I don’t have enough time to do my work, I definitely don’t have time to spend my whole day badgering reps.
This is for sure not the most efficient way to order tools. The techmet thing is a great tool to add to the arsenal, but I think you really missed on building relationships with your vendors. I've helped start a few shops and the very first thing done at each place is get accounts setup with the local vendors and getting them all into the shop to explain our needs in person. Gotta know what brands they sell and stock. Keep a list or line cards available for reference. You also didn't talk about the fact that us as programmers should be responsible for knowing our tooling and planning around lead times. If you see a 2 week lead time on some inserts, you need to select a different insert. Of course none of this applies if you don't have good local vendors which is why I never recommend opening a shop where you don't have a good local supply chain.
I do think every brand needs to offer an online purchasing option. I don't understand waiting on a quote from a local vendor knowing they won't have it in stock and will drop ship from the vendor. However there is something to be said about ordering all through your vendors and keeping that relationship good so they will help you when you need them.
I definitely agree that having a good relationship with your vendors - tooling or otherwise - is going to be key to having a functioning machine shop that can actually get parts out the door. Where I think this solution outlined really shines is for smaller shops where you don't get the attention and diligence from vendors that larger, more profitable accounts for them might get.
I can remember when I first started, we bought virtually everything through one vendor - even though we were ultimately getting hosed on pricing - because they were the only ones who would give us the time of day.
Everything you said is fantastic advice though - every option has a role in your supply chain if you use it correctly!
Manufacturers in the US & Europe tend to have qty minimums & abide by the "Don't compete w/ your customers.", otherwise, why would MSC, McMaster, Fastenal, Grainger buy 100 or 1,000's of items, to have in stock.
If a manufacturer does sell direct, you'll pay a premium, 'cause 'Don't compete w/ customers.'
Smaller distributors typically by from the big ones I listed above.
There are places that are drop ship suppliers, Walmart started an 'industrial supplier' company. They sell on Amazon... Zero? Something like that, 4 letters. No inventory, drop ship everything. No product knowledge or support.
@@iansandusky417 Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've only ever had the issue of being treated like a small company with machine dealers, and never vendors, but I'm also the guy that will break out some brews in the shop with reps and take them to lunch to keep them happy to come back.
yeah, its one of the reasons i have left that continent tbh. distributers and dealers.. so slow, bad for business, with an air of scammyness everytime. Europe does it much better. Websites with prices and delivery times and you can order without having to speak with some phone warrior.
Don't you guys have local tooling reps? I live in Adelaide, Australia. It's a tiny town and we get almost everything same day or overnight. Seems like it's a case of not being organised. Or just fluffing this website.
Sounds like you are dealing with the wrong distributors. Here is Ontario, we still have a family owned distributor that has next day delivery on most top brands. I have never had an issue with getting tooling!
And some people wonder why China is doing well. Added to cart, done.
Really don’t see this issue in mid-Tn
Plenty of distributors , competitive pricing and good service. At least 7 different suppliers come by my shop
Not buying it mate sorry. Don't matter if you're a one man shop you must have your supply chain all set-up. How come you are making a job and from a sudden you have to find out where to buy the inserts you are already using? That should be addressed before making the first chip.
While I agree with you 100%, that is not always the reality of the situation at least for us. We are a shop with 40 plus machines and 10 machinists and we will often begin a job with no thought to tooling. I am slowly changing this as the "new" tool room manager, but it is still an up hill battle at times.
We generally have no trouble getting tooling. We have a great local vendor who typically has a quote back to us in an hour or so. We also purchase from MSC several times/week and we stock quite a bit of tooling, some in a Matrix vending cabinet.
Im here in a small shop of 4 people,we are lucky enough to have a good supplier that has tools in stock and we usually buy the tools we need as the job comes
Hang on, you break an insert or a holder, and you don't have a dozen spares on hand?
The video title is accurate, but the opening speech only applies to total beginners
Our distributor gets back to me within a day and usually has better pricing than msc.
Chinese high feed cutter? No thank you. I prefer to keep an extra pack of inserts in my drawer. Ian you were at Pierson Workholding, just learn how to implement LEAN in your shop and you will never need to buy Chinese stuff again
Chinese today is fine...
@@65cj55 Kennametal made in china is better than Chinese noname. And my Japanese Hitachi Moldino high feed cutter is better than Chinese Kennametal
@@ov3753 According to you, some will only buy German claiming it the best...
@@65cj55 which car would you drive german VW or chinese Great Wall?
And I do use chinese Sandvik drills and satisfied with them, but I will not use old copy if OSG high feed cutter with unknown coating
@@ov3753 The subject, is not Cars...the point is people say they will only buy German or Swiss tooling over U S or Japanese etc, it's called cognitive bias...but to answer your question, i would buy a Great Wall over a VW, specifically the Tank 300, they are getting great reviews and passing rigorous testing..
I live down the road from a big grainger store no problem for me
Private industry will eventually change this as china keeps shutting down. New players will level the playing field as demand will rocket for 2024