Heckuva comparison…thank you! I’ve been using the GF Sanding Sealer in conjunction with the Enduro 2K CV, and really like how it lays down. I sand to 320G prior to applying the sanding sealer, then two coats of the CV with 400G between coats. I use Liberon 0000 steel after the final coat. I use a Fuji 4 turbine HVLP with the as it sprays everything I need from topcoats to stains to acrylic latex’s. The 3M PPS 2.0 system is an added bonus for easy cleanup. I have a gallon of EmTech, but have never tried it. Keep up the great content👏🏻👏🏻!
Those are all great products! Instead of steel wool, I use a (well used) 1000 grit 3m pad and lightly stroke with the grain. This cuts off dust nibs and smooths things over without effecting the sheen like steel does. Check out my newer finishing videos like th-cam.com/video/iEM-2myv4qo/w-d-xo.html or th-cam.com/video/qYOqEikoWaI/w-d-xo.html for more finishing fun! Thanks for watching!
Thank you soo much for the video. I have been in business for almost 4 years now. I started out with shirwin William water born Laquer. I would get a very smooth finish but I had to spray 4 coats. The secret was to spray the last coat very very thick. That is fine for a table top but you can’t spray thick vertical. I also noticed it would run easier. Later I switch to solvent base laquer. I tried both pre cat and post cat. I find I get the same results on both. Only thing I like more from post cat is that it is more scratch resistant for table top. I hate the strong fumes of solvent laquer. Only reason I haven’t gone back to water base is because the wood gets a richer look with solvent base just like you said.
Sounds like you have had similar experience. I am about to try envirolak products, I hear great things. They are European and expensive but I'm getting tired of the solvents. Please subscribe and stay tuned for in-depth future content. Thanks!
Haha that’s funny you say you will try envirolak cause after doing more research last night I decided to either order envirolak or Reneer. Will call both of them today and make a decision. Subscribed I also have a TH-cam channel. French River Woodworks. I have 100,000 subs.
First off, I know (knew) nothing about wood finishes. Second, I had absolutely no interest in wood finishes. However, you made something that I had little interest in, interesting. Before I knew it, I was learning something and enjoying it! Along with your knowledge of the industry, you have a gift for sharing that knowledge in a way that even someone with no woodworking experience could enjoy. Seriously one of the best videos I've seen on here in awhile. Your production gets better and better with each one. Keep it up!
I've been using EMTECH since 2010. They recently changed their formulation across all of their products. What used to spray well no longer does. I had problems spraying their white lacquer and switched to General Finishes just for one project. GF was so easy to spray and it was flat, dead flat, really nice. I have access to Sherwin Williams professional finishes and will be doing some samples for finishes I typically spray. I am also considering just handing off to a local finisher with over 20 years experience. I've talked to a few small companies like mine who use him and they are very satisfied with his work.
Honestly, the best product I use these days is Envirolak 170 white primer (amazing stuff) and Envirolak 200 White topcoat. And for water based clears I use Envirolak 100 or 300. You will likely be happy with any of these and they have much more resistence than General finishes. Just use an airless sprayer with a 308 FFLP tip! Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the detail. I'm heavily invested in HVLP with both 4 stage and 5 stage turbines and 4 guns. I have been looking to airless since I have been getting more jobs that are painted.
I agree. Do you use your sprayer for both pigmented and clear coats? I have yet to see a YT video describing HOW to clean an airless system when switching over. Maybe this is something you could cover?
I clean it with a gallon or two of clean water every time. Whether Im switching between colors or clears. And haven't had problems. Just keep the gun filter clean.
Great video! As a piano refinisher, I’ve experimented with a great many types and brands of sealers, grain fillers, and top coats.I too have tried Emtech only to be disappointed. I used to use Mohawk but their prices have skyrocketed. And shipping charges have gotten out of hand (not a Mohawk problem). Now I use exclusively Sherwin-Williams Chemical coatings division as they are local, and I can call or stop by any time with technical questions and they are always so helpful. And I don’t have to pay big $$$ to ship hazardous materials.
Exactly! I've tried many as well. My favorite water based coatings are envirolak. That's what my trestle table is finished with. And I'm trying Imron solvent coatings in a future video. Thanks for watching!
I was really close to going with Emtech for my walnut cabinet door finish but I couldn’t find enough information/reviews. I decided to go with general finished high performance. I’m glad I did.
So I tested their oil based finish first. It’s called Arm-R-Seal. It was absolutely flawless. The best finish I’ve ever seen. However i was only testing it on a small surface. I went on Reddit and many people were saying that had problems with streaking. Now mind you…..if you shot it this is not an issued. I was using a foam brush applicator. Also the oil based drying process is almost 24 hours between costs which is excruciating. I didn’t want to risk the streaks so I went to their water based finish called high performance which is basically impossible to screw up. Drying time for this is 30 min. It’s fantastic. There’s also 1 other huge difference between the two and that’s the ambering effect. The oil ambers adding a beautiful golden color to the walnut. The water based one does not amber. Not much anyway. 👊🏻
@@FortressFineWoodworks Have you tried or heard of Renner? They are supposed to be next level (whatever that means lol). I believe they are out of Italy but they have US distributors. Elite Fine Finishes is the US distributor that I know of. They have a TH-cam channel too.
Thanks for the entertaining education, lol! You are obviously experienced and very knowledgeable. Keep up the good work, we're looking forward to your next video!
In my experience (Professional Furniture Maker of 10 years in the biz) I agree target coatings is near trash. I had endless problems with it and it’s not very tough at all. Sealer is super low solids and so thin it basically does nothing. Complaints of water rings and other damage by customers using 6000. No real chemical resistance. My go to now is the Envirolak family for water based everything. (in the commercial world at least not sure if you can get it diy). Seriously amazing stuff, night and day difference.
It’s so obvious then that Jason Bent’s walnut table 5 finishes video was just a paid review by Target Coatings. Goes to show you….gotta be really careful who you trust. Too bad cuz I really dig him.
I’ve used Emtec 8000 since 2006. The new formula doesn’t spray well at all. I use shellac to bring out the grain. I won’t use it again. I believe Envirolak 300 and Renner 688 will outperform the Sherwood in adhesion and chemical resistance
That's a great alternative! Automotive urethane is a touch more flexible and scratch resistant than Sherwood. It is much harder to flatten before a last satin coat (in my experience)
Not familiar with Emtech. As for water based products they are best sprayed with a pump instead of HVLP. You can get a good Polyurethane WB from Gemini (Sirca), Ilva, CIC, Renner, and Envirolak. Most EU products tend to be better than US. With the recant resin shortages we will probably finally see reworks of WB from SW, ML Campbell, Axaulta, and AcromaPro. If you stick with WB get a soft spraying pump ED655 for electric or an air assisted airless for air powered. Use a 308 tip and follow mill thickness to a T. It will go down looking orange peeled however it will lay out. You will never get that off the gun instant glass like you can from a precat solvent.
Very good advice, thank you. I will be spraying Enduro black poly in my newest project with hvlp. I've been able to lay this stuff like glass in the past so we will see. I'll be looking forward to your insight in that video. Thanks for watching
I've been waiting for a comparison like this! I've been comparing WB CV's to the Sherwood as well. So far I've had some really good durability from the Renner 688 finish. Better than the Sherwood actually. Might be worth testing out. It still looks like a WB finish, but you can apply a penetrating oil first to make it look like the Sherwood. Also, Sherwin Williams carries a penetrating oil for application under their CV, which makes it look even better on walnut.
Thank you for the video. I'm thinking about switching to conversion varnish from water based Poly. I don't believe anyone asked below... but why were you getting air bubbles in your finish??
Some finishes are just tricky to atomize properly. With an hvlp, I've learned that I need to Fine tune how much product is leaving the tip for perfect atomization. Then there's usually minimal air bubbles. Using an airless sprayer with water based is the way to go.
My cabinet maker used conversion varnish on the cabinets he made for me. Problem is he got overspray on a small portion of the cabinet and he was not able to buff it out, until I mentioned using crumbled gift tissue paper, which is what other cabinet makers suggested. That got most of the overspray out, but now it looks too shiny where the overspray was buffed out. He tried using lacquer thinner to bring back out the satin finish, but I have come to find out that lacquer thinner really doesn't penetrate the conversion varnish he used, which is something he should have known. I am stuck with a shiny spot on my cabinet now, which doesn't match the rest of my cabinet. Do you have any suggestions? My cabinet maker seems incompetent.
That's a great question. Lacquer thinner will only revive a sheen if it can melt the coating. Otherwise, using abrasives like steel wool or 1000 grit (soft backed) sandpaper can work if you blend it into the rest of the panel. Another idea is to try a small test of satin (wipe on) poly and see if you get 1. Adhesion 2. No color change, and 3. A matching satin sheen. Otherwise, a respray of that area is the best option.
Will your finishes stand up to "knife wielding toddlers"? My "go to" finish is the General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. I apply it with a foam brush and find it very forgiving. I usually apply 4 coats with a 320 sand between coats.
That's some pretty strong stuff since it's an oil poly. (Arm r seal). I would say the conversion varnish is a bit more brittle. Lately, I've been trying 2k poly systems and they seem to be the strongest I've ever seen.
Sherwin Williams has been getting greedy. They discontinued their waterborne lacquer Kem Aqua Plus which used to cost around $50 per gallon in my area for their new Gallery Series which costs a whopping $120 per gallon which is basically a repackaged KA+. For that I will be moving over to CV. Thank you for this informative video
Soo many mistakes. Any oil based solvent will soften water base. Rubbing it with acetone just shows you don’t understand wb. Cross hatch is done is with special tape and graded on a scale as per astm d3359.
Heckuva comparison…thank you! I’ve been using the GF Sanding Sealer in conjunction with the Enduro 2K CV, and really like how it lays down. I sand to 320G prior to applying the sanding sealer, then two coats of the CV with 400G between coats. I use Liberon 0000 steel after the final coat. I use a Fuji 4 turbine HVLP with the as it sprays everything I need from topcoats to stains to acrylic latex’s. The 3M PPS 2.0 system is an added bonus for easy cleanup. I have a gallon of EmTech, but have never tried it. Keep up the great content👏🏻👏🏻!
Those are all great products! Instead of steel wool, I use a (well used) 1000 grit 3m pad and lightly stroke with the grain. This cuts off dust nibs and smooths things over without effecting the sheen like steel does. Check out my newer finishing videos like th-cam.com/video/iEM-2myv4qo/w-d-xo.html or th-cam.com/video/qYOqEikoWaI/w-d-xo.html for more finishing fun! Thanks for watching!
Thank you soo much for the video. I have been in business for almost 4 years now. I started out with shirwin William water born Laquer. I would get a very smooth finish but I had to spray 4 coats. The secret was to spray the last coat very very thick. That is fine for a table top but you can’t spray thick vertical. I also noticed it would run easier. Later I switch to solvent base laquer. I tried both pre cat and post cat. I find I get the same results on both. Only thing I like more from post cat is that it is more scratch resistant for table top. I hate the strong fumes of solvent laquer. Only reason I haven’t gone back to water base is because the wood gets a richer look with solvent base just like you said.
Sounds like you have had similar experience. I am about to try envirolak products, I hear great things. They are European and expensive but I'm getting tired of the solvents. Please subscribe and stay tuned for in-depth future content. Thanks!
Haha that’s funny you say you will try envirolak cause after doing more research last night I decided to either order envirolak or Reneer. Will call both of them today and make a decision. Subscribed
I also have a TH-cam channel. French River Woodworks. I have 100,000 subs.
I just ordered the Envirolak EL 100 20
You should never apply wb really thick. The issue is in your spraying
First off, I know (knew) nothing about wood finishes. Second, I had absolutely no interest in wood finishes. However, you made something that I had little interest in, interesting. Before I knew it, I was learning something and enjoying it! Along with your knowledge of the industry, you have a gift for sharing that knowledge in a way that even someone with no woodworking experience could enjoy. Seriously one of the best videos I've seen on here in awhile. Your production gets better and better with each one. Keep it up!
Thank you truly. These videos are a lot of work to create so I appreciate you watching and learning.
The final table is GORGEOUS!! The color is so rich!
Thanks for being such a strong helper!
I've been using EMTECH since 2010. They recently changed their formulation across all of their products. What used to spray well no longer does. I had problems spraying their white lacquer and switched to General Finishes just for one project. GF was so easy to spray and it was flat, dead flat, really nice. I have access to Sherwin Williams professional finishes and will be doing some samples for finishes I typically spray. I am also considering just handing off to a local finisher with over 20 years experience. I've talked to a few small companies like mine who use him and they are very satisfied with his work.
Honestly, the best product I use these days is Envirolak 170 white primer (amazing stuff) and Envirolak 200 White topcoat. And for water based clears I use Envirolak 100 or 300. You will likely be happy with any of these and they have much more resistence than General finishes. Just use an airless sprayer with a 308 FFLP tip!
Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the detail. I'm heavily invested in HVLP with both 4 stage and 5 stage turbines and 4 guns. I have been looking to airless since I have been getting more jobs that are painted.
Airless sprays twice as fast. Although each have their place.
I agree. Do you use your sprayer for both pigmented and clear coats? I have yet to see a YT video describing HOW to clean an airless system when switching over. Maybe this is something you could cover?
I clean it with a gallon or two of clean water every time. Whether Im switching between colors or clears. And haven't had problems. Just keep the gun filter clean.
Great video! As a piano refinisher, I’ve experimented with a great many types and brands of sealers, grain fillers, and top coats.I too have tried Emtech only to be disappointed. I used to use Mohawk but their prices have skyrocketed. And shipping charges have gotten out of hand (not a Mohawk problem). Now I use exclusively Sherwin-Williams Chemical coatings division as they are local, and I can call or stop by any time with technical questions and they are always so helpful. And I don’t have to pay big $$$ to ship hazardous materials.
Exactly! I've tried many as well. My favorite water based coatings are envirolak. That's what my trestle table is finished with. And I'm trying Imron solvent coatings in a future video. Thanks for watching!
I was really close to going with Emtech for my walnut cabinet door finish but I couldn’t find enough information/reviews. I decided to go with general finished high performance. I’m glad I did.
Oh yeah? How did the High Performance turn out?
So I tested their oil based finish first. It’s called Arm-R-Seal. It was absolutely flawless. The best finish I’ve ever seen. However i was only testing it on a small surface. I went on Reddit and many people were saying that had problems with streaking. Now mind you…..if you shot it this is not an issued. I was using a foam brush applicator. Also the oil based drying process is almost 24 hours between costs which is excruciating. I didn’t want to risk the streaks so I went to their water based finish called high performance which is basically impossible to screw up. Drying time for this is 30 min. It’s fantastic.
There’s also 1 other huge difference between the two and that’s the ambering effect. The oil ambers adding a beautiful golden color to the walnut. The water based one does not amber. Not much anyway. 👊🏻
I've gotten the same results. I'm still on a search for the best Water-based product on walnut
@@FortressFineWoodworks Have you tried or heard of Renner? They are supposed to be next level (whatever that means lol). I believe they are out of Italy but they have US distributors.
Elite Fine Finishes is the US distributor that I know of. They have a TH-cam channel too.
Yes, it's similar to envirolak. My best source tells me that even renner doesn't look like solvent on walnut
Thanks for the entertaining education, lol! You are obviously experienced and very knowledgeable. Keep up the good work, we're looking forward to your next video!
Thanks my friend
Learned so much! Wish I’d seen this before I varnished a metric shitload of ash wood last year
MAN! How much is a metric shitload? That sounds like a couple and a half!
In my experience (Professional Furniture Maker of 10 years in the biz) I agree target coatings is near trash. I had endless problems with it and it’s not very tough at all. Sealer is super low solids and so thin it basically does nothing. Complaints of water rings and other damage by customers using 6000. No real chemical resistance.
My go to now is the Envirolak family for water based everything. (in the commercial world at least not sure if you can get it diy). Seriously amazing stuff, night and day difference.
I will absolutely take a look into that. Sounds like a great product! Thanks for such a well informed tip.
It’s so obvious then that Jason Bent’s walnut table 5 finishes video was just a paid review by Target Coatings. Goes to show you….gotta be really careful who you trust. Too bad cuz I really dig him.
I’ve used Emtec 8000 since 2006. The new formula doesn’t spray well at all. I use shellac to bring out the grain. I won’t use it again. I believe Envirolak 300 and Renner 688 will outperform the Sherwood in adhesion and chemical resistance
I'm trying envirolak on my current project so I will see how it performs! Thanks for watching
Thanks I use catalyzed automotive finishes on all wood projects
That's a great alternative! Automotive urethane is a touch more flexible and scratch resistant than Sherwood. It is much harder to flatten before a last satin coat (in my experience)
Not familiar with Emtech. As for water based products they are best sprayed with a pump instead of HVLP. You can get a good Polyurethane WB from Gemini (Sirca), Ilva, CIC, Renner, and Envirolak. Most EU products tend to be better than US. With the recant resin shortages we will probably finally see reworks of WB from SW, ML Campbell, Axaulta, and AcromaPro.
If you stick with WB get a soft spraying pump ED655 for electric or an air assisted airless for air powered. Use a 308 tip and follow mill thickness to a T. It will go down looking orange peeled however it will lay out. You will never get that off the gun instant glass like you can from a precat solvent.
Very good advice, thank you. I will be spraying Enduro black poly in my newest project with hvlp. I've been able to lay this stuff like glass in the past so we will see. I'll be looking forward to your insight in that video. Thanks for watching
I've been waiting for a comparison like this! I've been comparing WB CV's to the Sherwood as well. So far I've had some really good durability from the Renner 688 finish. Better than the Sherwood actually. Might be worth testing out. It still looks like a WB finish, but you can apply a penetrating oil first to make it look like the Sherwood. Also, Sherwin Williams carries a penetrating oil for application under their CV, which makes it look even better on walnut.
I will definitely try renner at some point. How's the depth of color?
Great idea with the oil as well!
Thank you for the video. I'm thinking about switching to conversion varnish from water based Poly. I don't believe anyone asked below... but why were you getting air bubbles in your finish??
Some finishes are just tricky to atomize properly. With an hvlp, I've learned that I need to Fine tune how much product is leaving the tip for perfect atomization. Then there's usually minimal air bubbles. Using an airless sprayer with water based is the way to go.
My cabinet maker used conversion varnish on the cabinets he made for me. Problem is he got overspray on a small portion of the cabinet and he was not able to buff it out, until I mentioned using crumbled gift tissue paper, which is what other cabinet makers suggested. That got most of the overspray out, but now it looks too shiny where the overspray was buffed out. He tried using lacquer thinner to bring back out the satin finish, but I have come to find out that lacquer thinner really doesn't penetrate the conversion varnish he used, which is something he should have known. I am stuck with a shiny spot on my cabinet now, which doesn't match the rest of my cabinet. Do you have any suggestions? My cabinet maker seems incompetent.
That's a great question. Lacquer thinner will only revive a sheen if it can melt the coating. Otherwise, using abrasives like steel wool or 1000 grit (soft backed) sandpaper can work if you blend it into the rest of the panel. Another idea is to try a small test of satin (wipe on) poly and see if you get
1. Adhesion
2. No color change, and
3. A matching satin sheen.
Otherwise, a respray of that area is the best option.
I would love to see what the em might look like with a coat of shellac, before laying the 8000 down
I have reason to think it would look similar. The em8000 seemed to mute color quite effectively. For good or for bad
Will your finishes stand up to "knife wielding toddlers"? My "go to" finish is the General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. I apply it with a foam brush and find it very forgiving. I usually apply 4 coats with a 320 sand between coats.
That's some pretty strong stuff since it's an oil poly. (Arm r seal). I would say the conversion varnish is a bit more brittle. Lately, I've been trying 2k poly systems and they seem to be the strongest I've ever seen.
Sherwin Williams has been getting greedy. They discontinued their waterborne lacquer Kem Aqua Plus which used to cost around $50 per gallon in my area for their new Gallery Series which costs a whopping $120 per gallon which is basically a repackaged KA+. For that I will be moving over to CV. Thank you for this informative video
I recommend trying envirolaks products. They have a great waterbased poly envirothane 100 or envirothane 300. Thanks for watching!
ml Campbell… is all I can say. Cost more but 🤷♂️ quality ain’t cheap Neither is anything at this time but you get what u pay for
I will have to take a look at their products and test a few. Thanks for the tip
Soo many mistakes. Any oil based solvent will soften water base. Rubbing it with acetone just shows you don’t understand wb. Cross hatch is done is with special tape and graded on a scale as per astm d3359.
I appreciate your input! I will look into the terms you mentioned. Thanks for watching!
I would say you should be a teacher as you know how to educate and entertain without being obsequious. But, teaching sucks. Cheers, bro.
That's awesome to know! Thank you for that!