Is your Engine Damaged? | Blow-By & Engine Breathers [GOLD WEBINAR LESSON]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 เม.ย. 2020
- Watching the breathers during a full power run on the dyno can be quite worrying for many engine builders.
It’s a fact that regardless of how well built your engine is, and how mechanically healthy it is, some amount of combustion pressure will make its way past the rings into the crankcase. When this happens, it needs to be evacuated by way of the engine’s breather system.
In this webinar we’ll discuss what’s normal, what you should expect, and how to decide if your engine has a problem.
Due to the current global situation we though over the next few weeks we'd help keep you guys out there entertained and release some of these Gold Membership webinars to you for FREE to help pass the time.
Want to watch the members-only webinar on Engine Build Considerations or Engine Failure Analysis along with over 230 other lessons on engine building, tuning, and wiring topics? Sign up here for only $19 USD a month, start and stop at any time (unlike your gym membership!):bit.ly/GoldMembershipHPA
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#highperformanceacademy #enginebuilding101 #engineblowby #breather - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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Every time I watch a gold webinar I mentally fix one of the cars I've sold 😂😭
hahaha, haven't heard that one before! Know the feeling though! - Taz.
When you see a HPA gold webinar lesson popup on the thing you are heavy researching currently... Priceless... Thanks again guys, you are the torch in the dark maze of automotive tuning.
Dude, exact same here.
Really like the fact you don't mind telling us about a mistake you've made!! It's refreshing to know even after all the years you have doing this you still make mistakes...
Agreed, I've learned more from my, and other people's, mistakes than from things working properly, as one then needs to figure out why the problems occurred and understand how to remedy them.
The fact he just talks about it and then moves on. Doesn't make excuses. Understands everything is a learning process. You sir would produce some mighty fine apprentices.
This is a subject very often overlooked by beginners and quite hard to find quality material on.
I feel spoiled having an expert explain the subject in such depth and so clearly. Thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
@@hpa101 More than helpful! Some ideas for improving my build immediately came to mind.
Lots of good advice.. (35 years turning wrenchs)
The good thing about using a pcv valve / check valve, is that at idle the manifold vacuum will pull fumes into the intake versus them escaping a vented catch can, where they can leave oil residue and be smelled. Not a big deal for a race build, but for a daily driven vehicle the fumes may not be desirable. I'm attempting to utilize the pcv setup on my build, with an air oil separator and exhaust venturi to (hopefully) take over under boost conditions.
If you haven't come up with a solution yet, I can help you out
I don't speak English but Andre speaks so well I understand😂
I've searched the Internet for months for this subject and this by far is the most comprehensive and confidence inspiring thank you!
Glad it helped you out mate! - Taz.
This video pretty much confirms the knock issue that I've had being caused by Blow by
Again, thanks for the volume of vids and great info, even though I know a bit about the subjects you are doing episodes on lately, it is great to refresh and also a great boredom killer during lockdown. Learning heaps on other subjects too. Cheers, HPA 👍
Thanks started to watch what size breather and found you fixed / addressed 2 other issues i have (but not for to much longer) THANKS a million.
I have found that if you daily your car it’s more advantageous to keep your PCV system, it’s not just good for emissions but it uses vacuum from the intake to help with the turbo oil return line moving that oil to the sump more easily especially when the oil is cold and thick. I use to have an issue where every time I took off from a light I would have a blue cloud behind me, I thought I had blown turbo seals. It turns out it went away after I reconnected the PCV.
Great lesson! Good day to all. I want to share my experience with crankcase pressure issues that have been a pain in my arse for the last 4 or 5 winters. I bought a 2009 WRX265 with a spun rod bearing for cheap. Cleaned and adjusted all the valves and bought a new short block from Subaru. Put nearly 1000km on it and driving home just a huge blue cloud behind me. At the time of purchase, they informed me that just not long ago the turbo had failed and got a new one. Suspect this was related to the spun bearing. Anyway, I suspected the pressure in the case coming from elsewhere. Installed a vacuum/pressure gauge into the case, drove down the road and boost gauge and the one I installed almost reading the same. PCV had stuck open so putting MAP straight into the case! How stupid! So I blanked of the hose to the intake manifold. Few months later (I live in Alberta Canada where we have a challenging climate possible +35 to -40 degrees Celsius) same thing happened blowing oil out the exhaust. Found that stupid Xmas tree fitting that the PCV valve attaches to was frozen up. Once thawed out I realized that fitting has restrictor of only like 8mm. I opened it up as much as possible and had no issue after. March 2021 at minus 30 driving home from work put a rod through the block, froze up and all the engine oil forced out of the turbine housing seal. Changed the convoluted ventilation lines a few times now but even this winter I gave up. I thought unless you were running speed density your car wouldn’t run well by dumping the fumes. But that’s what I do now. -25 and I have issues. High crankcase pressure is not good. I have had to replace my front crank seal cause it pushed that out as well. Boring Write I imagine but no idea how much frustration this is still causing plus the lose of an engine.
Subaru is garbage.
Now thats performance .! Improve flow by evacuating exaust through the valve cover 😉
Factory crankcase ventilation system has one advantage, it generates vacuum, because it is connected to intake before the turbocharger. Suction helps to evacuate excessive amount of gasses from crankcase. So if you apply less restrictive pcv system but connected to oil catch can not into the intake, the result might be not much better that factory solution.
But what if that vacuum was offset by a catch can or oil separator system where the intake has a connection still and under load will pull a lot of vaccum still but at idle not enough to suck like the factory system(barely any suction, more vent). What do you think about that? My VQ35DE just blew up after 5 months of hard driving every week. I was burning .5 quarts to 1q every drive. On highway it was worse. But if you kept rpm under 2200 or went to 5000 then locked cruise at 2200 and chill. It would burn no oil. I've been driven nuts about blow by seems like everyone else's cars dont have lots of blowby
Thanks a lot Andre. The videos are really gold for me
I haven't pushed out seals with blow by, but definitely had enough crankcase pressure to cause all the seals to leak significantly.
Wanted some basic info got led astray by the internet got an entire lecture right here awesome
That's awesome! Better than ending up watching dogs fall down some stairs, those and 'Curb your enthusiasm' memes are where TH-cam seems to always take me haha.
Catch you next time Ray! - Taz
This is a very good channel! Subbed!
I should just pay this guy to build, film videos, program, and maintain a motor for me.
Great video, what would be a general healthy vacuum number most stock crankcases run hot idle NA?
1-2inHg?
Re: PCV valve, they often stick, or even get blocked, so rather than have some/all the crankcase gases being drawn off, they can cause some pressure build up and venting out the breather that is supposed to let fresh air in. It can also cause a poor idle as the engine is tuned for that crankcase air.
As you say, removal of the splash shield allows more oil to be carried as droplets but, worse, most OHC designs have a pressurised oil feed to each cam'lobe, and in some instances it can splash off the components directly into the breathers... Some engines, though, do need the splash shield to be modified as, while adaquate for moderate street use, under harder use oil can build up on top of them and under cornering/braking/hard acc'n that oil can find it's way into the breather - the old 20XE engine was notorious fo this, and modifying the shield was an important step.
The biggest issue is that a stuck open pcv is effectively a vacuum leak into the intake manifold, assuming you have the factory pcv system.
Great video.
Breathers are too rare of matter really examinated in details.
It is greatly interesting to realize that pressure or vacuum in crankcase has several effects on oil pump, seals, air-fuel mixture...
For the question about seals damaged from removing breathers I can definitely answer "yes, if you don't increase breathers sizes (and number) and remove the vacuum effect from intake, pressure will manage to build into crankcase / rockers case / timing case and you will begin to find oil appearing around every engine seals"
100 %
This is by far the best video I have seen on this subject. Very accurate! All your videos are excellent. You cover subjects most skip or think unimportant, but they are actually very important, like this one, keeping oil out of the intake manifold, and your video on how to tune crank/cold-start enrichment.
I play all of the HP Academy tips to every level of engine Motorsports or auto mechanics. An engine is an engine a wire is a wire.
My (Honda) H22 / 420WHP with 2x10AN fittings recently started filling up the catch can under load with no other symptoms. Compression & leak down were good. I'm going to start with replacing valve stem seals. This video helped, thanks.
catch can is causing pressure
Forgot I typed a comment in here. 1 year later and did valve stem seals but still have the same issue. I would guess normal wear or a cracked ring...
I have had a customer cap off all breathers for start up before he plumbed in his breather system, and it popped out the rear main seal on a LS motor, mind you he had the motor completely sealed off and ran the motor for a couple of minutes,.
Starts video discussing engine blow by while running B-Roll of a SR20 valve cover. hahahaha. Gotta love a dirty Nissan.
Only thing looser than the ring gaps on a stock Cheery-Top SR20 are the... (well this is a family friendly channel ;) )
PS, I haven't watched the whole video yet, do you address crankcase vacuum pumps at all in this vid?
Maybe I missed this but, is it better to vent both naturally aspirated and turbocharged engines to air?
I've seen in the past some kits that utilities the scavenging effect of the exhaust for example to suck blow by out the engine. Some have complained of seeing oil in the exhaust.
You should see how GM ecotecs PCV system under no load operates. The PCV valve sits inbetween the intake manifold as a little cartridge. It's a real nightmare. Vacuum pumps would of been a great addition to relieving excessive crank case pressure because of blow by. Another thing for people to consider is when you vent gasses to the atmosphere a lot of times your MAF is losing its ability to measure the lost air so your tuner should compensate for that loss of air or extra intake from outside air if the lines are run post MAF meaning if your sucking in gases through your PCV outlet and that has an air filter on it, your MAF has no idea the extra air being ingesting leading to rich conditions. he talk about it at about 50:00
Can you do a webinar on lspi and how to tune around it.
Whats your take on Diesel crank case vent routing? on my subaru i was running a basically identical setup you talked about in the video. but in a diesel (light to moderately modified engine in the 30-70 pound of boost range) oil vapor isnt necessarily a bad thing. is there a significant advantage to pulling a small vacuum on the system as opposed to just venting? My research is in the 6.7 Cummins engine in the Dodge ram trucks in the US, and most of them just route a single line to the ground.
im looking to have a big line off the block and heads to a single huge can and im undecided on if i will vent it to atmosphere or back to the intake.
Hey Andre how effective is a breather mod to the valve cover? I only ask this because we are still relying on a internal vent up to the head which cfm would remain the same wouldnt it? Unless we do like you say.. add a crank case vent. The only benefit to a head vent is the no gumming up of throttle body / AFR's because we re route to a catch can. Would you say my theory is correct?
Nice work! I love all stuff you publish.
The only thing to comment about blowby is that the rocker valve you mention in the video is not a PCV but a one way valve. Its work is to avoid boost to enter the crankcase while letting gases work in vacuum situation. The other tube is connected before turbocharger. Tube diameter is low in this case to avoid vacuum to enter the rocker cover. Its main work is to avoid dirtyness in idle valve and/or throttle.
Real PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) valves that are used in modern engines work as pressure regulators tuned around 100mbar. All blowby flow runs over it, on boost and on vacuum. Then the gas is directed to one side or another by pressure difference. In motorsport situation there is no improvement because blowby is not recirculated.
As you said in other videos turbochargers can also generate underpressure at high power. Both underpressure and boost pressure in crankcase can lead to high oil consumption and oil seals damage.
In OEM engine development crankcase pressure and even blowby flow is measured an often used as alarm for testbench. As soon as crankcase pressure rises over the PCV set value it means there is a problem and the engine is automatically stopped to avoid more damage.
Here is a nice video about crankcase ventilation, and a interesting system from mann+hummel:
th-cam.com/video/dkNand6EiFM/w-d-xo.html
Regards!
This is why BMW engine sensors work wonders am I right or wrong ? Heavily sensitive right?!
Interesting.quite interesting
Hi ya. Is there such a thing like recirculating oil breather system? Onway pressure restricted valve draining into sump?
I found your video while trying to figure out an issue on my s13 sr20. I found oil in my charge pipe. I have a catch can setup already and have it going from the T to the catch can and then also from the T to the drain in the block, and then a filter on the catch can instead of also connection to the intake. Do you think this oil in the charge pipe is blow by somehow, or do you think the turbo seals are gone? Its weird because I dont hear any weird noise from the turbo, and it still makes full boost.
Hi will you be leaving these videos up on TH-cam or removing them after some time?
Just added a catch can to a buddy 5.3 ls and it's filling all the way up with In 20 to 30 miles can is kinda small but any ideas
You can suck out the catch can through the filter on top with a little fluid pump
Is there a rule of thumb that helps one determine adequate cross-section in regards to breather outlet size?
Isn't that one vent to the atmosphere of the 86 a restriction? Like you add 2 breathers to the engine, but still only have a small catch can opening to actuality vent it.
Thanks for the great info! Is there any ecu tuning which needs to take place after removing a pcv system and venting to a catch can?
No
I had alot of oil in the air intake box. The engine was blowing smoge from the oil stick. I was told to replace the engien
Why didn't you fit a non-return valve on the bottom of catch can to allow oil drain to scavenge box at low boost pressure, so it can be pumped out from there to oil pan as intended but it will be shut on the high boost? Anyway there shouldn't be a problem with overfilling the scavenge box if it is properly sized..
The kind of oil can increase the blow by?
I was wondering if you had any experience with this system in the 350z, G35 (v35 skyline) with the VQ35DE engine. The engine is known for oil consumption problems. I have put a catch can on it and it fills quite quickly. But i figure that its better to fill the catch can than to put that oil into the combustion chamber. Is there any way to improve the efficiency of this system? It has an awful valve cover design being plastic. Its surprising to me that after all this time and all the people who modify these engines, that no one has made a real great system to address this issue. I.E. billet valve covers with better pcv channels in it to give the oil time to drop out of the air in the system. You hear stories about people who had these engines replaced under warranty only to go right back to the consumption issue. I swear its the result of a poorly designed pcv system. Thanks for any information you can provide or even just humoring the discussion.
Can blow-by cause inconsistencies in the AFR?
More serious comment:
Sump return catch cans are fantastic. To alleviate the problem you mentioned of an open air path between the sump and the base of the catch can. Install the sump return to the sump below the oil level (what I did.) Thus the oil acts as a U-Tube where oil can easily drain back, but no gasses can pass. What I've done on my race car (CA18DET powered.) Since it's only ever being thrashed, any water vapours are flashed off, so that's not an issue.
However, even though it's been rebuilt, it still throws alot of oil out of the exhaust cam cover (breather is right at the back corner,) so an long acceleration, especially around a right hand corner just causes oil to pool and be rejected out the breathers. (Have external head drains and oil restrictor into the head, to help as well.) Can't afford and empty sum 15 laps in.
For a street car, I agree. no real need for a sump return.
You seem like the right person to ask! A very reputable shop built my 2.3L engine and I added a bigger turbo. Stock 350 hp, now pushing 570 hp at the crank. 3,000 miles later i decide to add a crank case catch can and i seem to get excessive blowby. 2.5 oz per 150miles!!! On the PCV side though, I get minimal blow by in the catch can. I have checked the radium PCV valve and all good. I removed the PCV catch can and the checkvalve and went back to stock on that side. I am told i need to use vented catch cans to solve this issue. Is that true? I can't be emptying half way on a road trip lol I dont think a vented oil cap would help or would it? dipstick always in place, does not lift
Can we get this question answered please 🙏
@@addisonmataa9941 no need, turns out it was a shitty build from essliner engineering and they installed pistons backwards.
The pistons move air in both directions, so pcv is critical for maximizing engine efficiency
Could blow by push oil back into the turbo in forged engine with stock breathers ? I'm having intermittent smoke on my forged 3sgte. I've done leak down test and compression test was told my engine is healthy. Just every now and then when I come to red light i see grey white smoke that smells like oil escaping from my exhaust:(
Use the pcv valve to create vacuum
On the crankcase at idle. Just run a catch can in between it.
8:20 - is PCV valve in turbo engine different than in naturally aspirated engine? I thought, in naturally aspirated engine, the PCV valve OPENS to allow more venting at higher RPM and the intake manifold vacuum at lower RPM actually CLOSES (almost) the PCV valve to limit venting.
@@andyjames1494 Thanks I think I get it now. I'm not too familiar with turbo engines and didn't think about the air pressure in the intake at high RPM (boost). Naturally aspirated doesn't have that. And that difference is what makes the same PVC valve behave differently during high RPM, under naturally aspirated and turbo operation.
I am running 40psi through my built motor with more ring gap and the factory plastic rocker cover only has a single 13mm breather in it. No one makes aftermarket rocker covers for my engine and the rocker cover plastic with no nice flat surfaces to add a breather to. I have blown 2 rocker cover gaskets out and all of my injector seals out. It doesn't have much blow by at idle but it must be making a lot of pressure when its doing long pulls at 40psi.
Try an oil fill breather 😀
is it just me or are these webinars different from the webinars on hpa.com? how come these courses are not on that?
No sir these are all in the webinars section on our website :) www.hpacademy.com/previous-webinars/173-engine-breathers-is-your-engine-damaged/
- Ben
@@hpa101 ah just under different titles?
can engine breath from dipstick line.....and is it bad??
But what about the benefits of having vacuum in the crankcase ect in a turbocharged application with pcv valves. The vacuum alone adds horsepower and aids in seals sealing ect.
Just a pcv valve and catch can on both intake and exhaust breathers. Plumbed like normal minus the catch cans.
The reality is that on a turbocharged engine you're unlikely to see vacuum at higher boost and rpm due to the higher levels of blow-by. That's not always the case but in most instances the blow-by will exceed the ability of the scavenge stages to evacuate the crankcase and you'll still see positive pressure. Admittedly the positive pressure is less than with a wet sump but you'll still see positive pressure. If you're running relatively low boost pressure then you may still see a slight vacuum in the sump but it will still be minor compared to what you'll see on an N/A engine and hence the benefit is reduced significantly. If you are still able to pull a vacuum then there's definitely no harm in using a one way valve / PCV valve in the breather line but the benefit is just reduced - Andre.
@@hpa101 I’ve always had really good luck w pcv setups. Even dual pcv setups w catch cans on both sides of the manifold.
None the less.
Would you suggest running pcv on the intake side w catch can and run the exhaust side in series but not to the turbo intake? So when it’s under boost the pcv shuts and just lets the engine breath through the catch can only?
I truly need to put a gauge on the turbo side to see just how much vacuum I can pull under boost on the turbo side.
This is a topic I visited years ago and I’ve always done pcv valves w filters and just recently ran into several cars that had the system deleted and showing signs of exhaust valves ect wearing but the moment I plumb the pcv system I can make those puffs of white smoke disappear no problem. In all these scenarios I’m
Suggesting in line pcv/oil separators and not just a stock pcv as they gum up quickly without routine cleaning. Doing it this way I see extremely minimal blowby even at high boost. Literally just drops in the catch cans at the end of a week. Where if I don’t apply vacuum I see a catch can gathering oil rather quickly.
Anyways. I’d def like to talk more about this topic as it’s a highly debatable topic between me and other tuners.
Wouldn't a compression test show this up early?
Andre: "Oil Doesn't make a great fuel"
F1 Engineer: "Hold my Beer"
Also: Spends $10-15k on a billet block. doesn't buy dry sump...
What Andre is talking about is different than what was happening with F1's fuel restrictions. I think in F1 they were actually putting fuel additives in the oil that would effectively raise octane, because F1 teams were not allowed to raise the octane of the fuel in their fuel tanks.
@@Greekspd no, they were burning oil because of fuel flow restrictions and they could effectively side step this by burning oil in specific situations where they wanted more power.
@@manitoublack Yes, octane and additive restrictions exist in F1 in addition to fuel flow restrictions. Here is a video of what I'm talking about. th-cam.com/video/ixfsyoGKlmE/w-d-xo.html
manitoublack I thought the same thing when he said that. Lol
The first engine we built had 0 blow by, could rev it, boost it and nothing would come out the breather system. After i foolishly killed it we built a second engine and now on idle it chuffs oil smoke and burns off about half a litre every 1000km's. But the catch can remains empty.
Very annoyed by it
You've got a ring problem, homie
@@98integraGSR Yep the people who did the first start didn't follow my instructions and in fact did the exact opposite. they also tuned it to run 9:1 AFR during the run in tune
@@Skirk84 they washed down the cylinders
@@98integraGSR Yeah looks that way, nothing much I can do.
Well THAT was overkill!!
What material are your countertops?
Wood? MDF? Metal? Stone?
Rich mahogany of course. Nothing but the finest 😂
These are melamine-coated MDF. They're pretty scratched up but you don't notice it on camera and the choice was more for the fact it is a studio than something we'd pumping out builds on day to day. HPA was also really poor (as all businesses getting started) when they did this. The lack of handles was a budget choice at the time and now that we can afford handles it's too late as it would ruin the continuity 😂
The workshop ones are steel topped, the fab room benches are steel. You can place wood or rubber/silicone mat on those when/if you require easily. I think stainless with a silicone type mat is pretty standard for many.
Pros and cons for all depending what you're up to really, although I'd probably stay away from stone or poured concrete tops personally 😅
And there is your really long answer to a really simple question. Happy New Year - Taz.
@@hpa101 looks like a serious kitchen…..any minute it appears Gordon Ramsay will start to use the table to chop his expensive rich people ingredients that arent easy to find at my local supermarket….
We keep him in the basement for such occasions. Don't tell our mum's - Taz.
@High Performance Academy while i am loving that hope there is a cross over with @viva la dirt league in future coz they around your block somewhere...hope i can visit both places for photos.
So if dry sumps are better and cheaper then a really good wet sump why aren't they as common on daily build type cars.
I know the dudes in Australia building the v12 supra wanted to avoid a dry sump.
Why did they want to avoid a dry sump? More info needed.
As for the first question, a daily/street performance build is not driven in anger anywhere near as much as a track car. Doesn't matter how big the owners EGO is, that is just a fact - Taz.
@@hpa101 well they wanted to do a 1gz fe swapped mark 4 supra like smokey nagata but leave it more as a proper street built car. also yeah a street car isnt but some people do take their built street whips to the track vs having a track specific car.
seemed more like they were saying its like having a wet block vs not. or other things you can get away with in a race car that isnt generally gonna be doing any real distance for anything length of time.
whole point of my r34 plan is to have a daily that can also do some endurance runs on the track.
obviously you cant drive on legal roads as wild as a track. but thats a given. well maybe in the states in the specific states with the abandoned highway system some of those roads are now basically lawless. or autobahn. was more along the lines of reliability or noise concerns if you had any insight.
The only reason I could think to not run a dry sump is if you simply don't need one due to the way the vehicle is used/budget. There are no reliability issues, some cars but more commonly motorcycles come with them from factory - Taz.
@@hpa101 hmmm wonder what they were on about then. maybe complexity? cause from what i know a good wet sump is more expensive then a dry sump set up.
and dry sumps have multiple advantages. crank case vacuum being one. plus the obvious ones.
After I increased boost, my dipstick starts popping out. However i don't find much oil in the catch can. Should i just tie down the dipstick or increase breather size?
George Chai what size lines running from valve cover?
@@anthonyhousein3497 stock size
Run the pcv system to the intake mani w a catch can no breather. It relieves crankcase pressure and has many benefits. Vacuum at no boost is a beautiful
Thing.
Normaly diesel engines bacause they run very high compression have a good amount of blow by at idle, some people think that is not normal kkkkk
the worst blow-by is no blow-by
when the motor blows up can it cause the battery to have a bad cell
Mention of the Direct Injection non Port Inj engine issues re blowby
Anyone had issues with b16a turbo build honda
Pretty broad question. I'm sure plenty have for numerous reasons, and I'm sure plenty more haven't for other numerous reasons :) - Tz.
@@hpa101 yeah 😂
When you own a hemi, a catch can isn't an option.
So basicly just fix everything.
Blow-by is not an issue??? Yep, if you plan to keep the car only one year.
Some performance engines are rebuilt multiple times in a single year depending on the application and usage which an arbitrary length of time has no influence on - Taz.
Didn't mention that brake servo on removing pcv valve lol won't have no brakes
Did you give that ANY thought before posting?
@@gordowg1wg145 thinking is for loosers we get iphones and follow what everyone else does
Your brake booster has its own pcv. No
Worries.
you talk weird
Must be something in your ears 😂 - Taz.