Kearney & Trecker Model H vs Model K Dividing Heads and Setting up to a Lead Attachment
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 พ.ย. 2022
- Kearney & Trecker Model H vs Model K Dividing Heads and Setting up to a Lead Attachment
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Not Being a Machinist, I wondered how that all worked. I have watch Keith for a number of years and it fascinates me how it all works. Thanks again!
I found this extremely interesting, from the history to the setup. Thanks for a great video, Keith!
The engineering and tooling back then simply amazing, and the way its built. Great channel Keith.
I worked at K-T rebuilding dividing heads. The H head uses a worm and worm wheel. The K head uses bevel gears. The K is much more heavy duty. P.S. mitering the bevel gears is very precise and is required for accuracy.
The movements of all three dividing heads seems to me to be sticky or stiff. Is that normal or do all these need service?
@@ulwur theres not much servicing to do. The H head can be adjusted. On the top you can loosen or tighten the split worm by loosening set screws and rotating the end cap with a punch in holes-either tighter or looser. Both units can be cleaned by removing the unit that is driven. I can’t remember but you can drain the oil out and replace from a drain hole or through the filler hole. Around the spindles that plate can come off and reveal the precision ball bearing. Try cleaning around there and resealing. Those bearings are VERY expensive. Good luck.
Seems there is a heck of a lot more intricate setup to make helix milled parts than one would initially think. And I can see that the setup has to be spot on. Doesn't seem like something you just install and go quickly... I also see, like most everything else, the correct implements are needed to do such milling processes. Sure hope you don't have to make such milling part very often. The production cost just to set everything up would have to be factored in... Thumbs Up!
Thank you for preserving the knowledge and passing it along.
Keith ... You are a very good teacher; knowledgeable; truly informative! John, Michigan
Excellent video! Thanks for going into the details on how everything works.
I absolutely love watching this equipment being handled and prepared for a job. Gotta find me a K&T/Milwaukee Model 3H someday soon.
Carl Spence - West Michigan
Good explanation on use and setting of the dividing head Keith. I've used them many times in the distant past and you just gave me a refresher. Keep on smiling.
Keith what a great video, never used a dividing head and never had anybody explain how to use one but you explanation help me understand it perfectly 👍👴🏻
You’re a very smart man Keith. To understand and work some of this machinery, whew!
Always something. There is a cause and affect for everything we do. Your skill in reviewing, analyzing and addressing these issues shows your craftsmanship. Will keep my eye out for a K type tail stock. Thanks very much for sharing.
Appreciate you working through all these problems on video. Very interested in seeing the universal head being used to cut this gear. I have a 2HL Plain, but I have a universal head. Looking forward to learning how you get that set up.
Someone said: “Making the car is the easy part, building the factory to make the car is 100 times harder.”
Elon Musk
Please add two zeros behind the 100 LOL
As an owner of a 2K, I appreciate the history of the K&T H and K series mills. Keep up the good work, Keith!
Thank you - Really interesting to see how the dividing head works in detail. Not seen that explained before.
Even before the war started K&T was looking for extra capacity. K&T contracted with Westinghouse Nuttall Works in Pittsburg PA to make the 2H mills and Miehle Printing Press in Chicago IL to make 2HL mills (the 1H was discontinued) which allowed K&T to focus on building the larger mills and accessories. K&T was also contracted build a number of special orders and many of those were build by Saranac Machine, Benton Harbor, MI.
The Westinghouse models are supposed to be pretty much identical to the K&T built 2h machines but minor differences did occur as there were problems with patents, I think.. There is a thick book which details the differences and serial numbers of the Westinghouse machines.... Cheers from Louisiana; Mike
that was and amazing demonstration of the differences between the various models.
Brings back memories, one thing I learned was to always make a test complete rotation making sure you get the correct number of divisions. I never did miss but I have seen it happen were the guy missed by a couple of holes and cut of half of the last tooth. So my lesson from his slip up was when yo think you can't make a mistake you will. Great video!🙂
Well Done Keith!
I picked up a Model H a few days ago. I need that manual for it.
explanation satisfactory. Thank you Keith! Good video
From my research, K&T contracted the Miehle Printing Press company to assembly the 2H and 2HL machines. My 2HL was a Miehle made machine.
Thank you for sharing. Enjoyed.👍👀
Thanks for sharing 👍
Very interesting Keith
Great explanation, Keith. Long winded, but sometimes that's what it takes. I'm more than happy to listen. The cats look fantastic, very healthy and happy to be where they are. There's no way to guess what goes on in a cat's head, but I'd like to think they are still very grateful for what you did for them. I know I am. Losing Josie had to be hard, but it's clear that she taught the boys well. She lives on in them. I'm just a few years away from retirement, and I'm planning on a shop building similar to yours. I've never done a lick of machining, but I'm starting to catch that bug (along with every virus that seems to be floating around right now). That shop may need a cast iron repository in order to settle that itch. Can't wait to see the next video.
Great video Keith, keep'um coming.
That was great! Thank you for the thorough explanation.
So that dividing head with the 40:1 ratio, when you'd cut teeth I more-or-less understood the reason for the two index bars. But now with the 5:1 model K The indexing is more understandable. Thanks very much Keith
Carefully stoning the bed to get rid of burrs and/or imperfections is good practice (but not too often) but then dropping, dragging or banging heavy pieces including the index head after stoning just replaces the old gouges with new gouges. Stoning the bottom mating parts might help too. They might be part of the reason there’s burrs each time something needs to be attached. Can’t wait for some work to actually begin.
a nice view of the "slippery slope" in the machining world. getting a machine is the easy part. tooling it up is where it gets complicated. and possibly expensive.
That's true about almost everything! You buy the "thing" and then all the "accessories" to go with it sometimes cost more than the "thing" did! Cameras, you need lenses. Telescopes you need eyepieces etc.
That's very impressive.
Always very interesting thanks for sharing Keith 🦘👍
We have a kt dividing head at work with 5:1 ratio. I mounted a motor and a variable frequency drive to it and used it to mill out a billet crankshaft for a 6 cyl. pulling tractor. I have few pictures if you would want to see them.
If you need 30 divisions and have a 5:1 gear ratio, you can use any hole pattern with a multiple of 6 holes. So that 60 circle will line up every 10 holes. Curious that the manual chose the 96 hole pattern instead.
Thank you for not calling an engine hoist a cherry picker.
Good learning resource.
A real nice walk around and discovery of the K and T technology. Glad you're on the case Keith! Not sure if many would have the patience and focus to keep plugging along. This story will have an end I'm sure; Good Job!
Don't you mean the H and K tech lol
As is often the case, 3 weeks of set-up and 30 min. of making chips. Thanks for sharing.
Quite the series of contraptions to turn the blank to make the proper cut, and you're still not ready at the end of the video! Glad to see the kitties snoozing on a little bed like that together.
You could also build a shaft with a couple small u-joints in it thanks for sharing always a great video hope you and your family have a wonderful thanksgiving
And add a bunch of slop and backlash - not good for making precision gears. Keith is all about having the right tool for the job and has spent his lifetime hunting them down and accumulating them.
Most excellent.
In your last video, I was worried about that coupler that went to the dividing head it looked like it might slide off while you were using it. Now I understand why. The fact you had to tap that coupler on to the sliding head should make a difference whether it will slide off or not.
Awe the little shop kitties, no shop is complete without a shop kitty or two!
Keith, a trick on engraved or stamped letters/numbers that we use in gunsmithing - old fashion correction fluid. Clean the area with some alcohol and dry it, coat the stamping with correction fluid and then use a stiff card to trim the top off and fill the marks. Easily removable with alcohol and stays put real well during use. The even older version was to use chalk and wax, but that gets messy. For the foot stock, Why not make one that is dead center for use until you can find the proper adjustable one.
He 'made' an aligned foot stock by adding some outboard toe clamps.🙂Keith's whole thing is to search down original vintage parts - I'm sure he'll find one eventually, or if necessary, find someone willing to loan theirs so Keith and Clarke can make a pattern and cast a replacement.
GREAT BUY, I'M READY LET'S GO TO WORK, GREAT VIDEO...
JUST got a dividing head in an industrial auction.
Turns out, it's a K&T, not as big as the K you show, so probably an H !
Has 3 index plates and a chuck that ?may? fit.
I was the only bidder and got it for an obscenely low price.
Well done sir. Difficult to explain. Then you can have chapter two with CK and TF series KT machines
Im not sure about a kt but I have a cincinnati with a set up like that and the dividing head mounts clear at the right end of the table and engages the lead attachment without a long driveshaft. This gives you the full use the table length.
For the tailstock could you make a spacer plate to lift it up and make it align correctly with the dividing head. It may not be perfect but it would simplify future setup.
In fact, it MIGHT be possible to raise and translate the old smaller indexing head with a spacer plate also. Since the height difference is pretty small, the plate would have to be rather thin in the middle. So, Keith almost certainly made the best choice for the real world.
Looks like an adaptor plate for the dividing head would likely be about a half inch thick. Thats enough metal to securely anchor everything. Cross slots cut into it would make alighnment easy.
Keith likes to have original vintage parts if at all possible - it's part of his passion as a collector/archiver as well as a machinist. He has already found a way to make-do until he finds an original.
Keith... just looking at that makes me feel that it just right.... and you can use a 1/2 plate and make an adaptor for the end support
thanks....
My suggestion would be to make an adapter pale to go under the model H to correct the shaft alignment and bolt down problems. Abom79 has that new fancy CNC mill and that would be a good project to practice with.
Keith, The way you tell about the machines and processes I think it is almost possible for an apprentice to do the job. Your shop has to be one of the best in the area, barring CNC machines, They are certainly not as much fun. Keith, do you know the story of Fred Dibner? He was a fellow like you but his interest was steam engines. He was a man born in the wrong century but had passion like yours. His legacy was destroyed by fools, thieves and greedy people not to mention the insensitivity and indifference of the local and national government. I hope your shop will not suffer the same fate. What you have done is awesome. There is a series about his life is two sections. You have so much in common.
Is the "series" about Mr. Dibner available to the general public?
@@oleran4569 Lots of Fred Dibnah stuff on Amazon UK and TH-cam. His forte was demolishing industrial chimneys using timber props to which he set fire. Amazing guy.
My head is spinning with H's and K's, but can't wait to see the beast in action.
I think a mounting plate of the proper thickness could have solved both your dividing head issues, but we support your iron deficiency Keith.
From what I've read by a K&T tech above, the model K is much more robust and therefore more likely to be more accurate after 50 years of use. Plus, yeah, Keith has a 'need' to have the proper vintage equipment whenever possible. He will make-do until he finds the right one.
Interesting viewing and rather fascinating the name denominations for the various mills in the series - I'm sure there was some old-time logic which explains how and why. I'm looking forward to seeing some chips when you're ready to go.
I am curious to understand how the 40:1 vs 5:1 ratio difference between the H and the K varients of the dividing head handwheels driven by the same input can cut with the same input gear ratio. Do you follow?
I was wondering the same - is the tail stock geared to a different ratio (same in both models) to the hand wheel?
@@robjchristopher Keith specifically mentioned the lead attachment gears were the same for both, which is why I ask. I can only assume the input from the lead attachment has no mechanical connection with the mechanical drive from the handwheel. I am genuinely fascinated by the whole mechanism.
I think that the register-holed plates make the difference. The 5 turns plate would have many more holes per circle.
The lead screw drive uses different gearing than the plate hand crank. Keith mentioned the K & H heads were the same when driven via the lead screw drive.
Note that with that model K dividing head you will need the foot stock for it.... Ten and Twelve inch mod k have the same offset from centerline but fourteen inch is different.... Model K foot stocks are peculiar to model K dividing heads....I own a ten inch model H and a ten inch model K dividing head with both foot stocks.. Cheers from Louisiana .. Mike
Great video. Yes KT really can be confusing with their model no. I have a 2CH this model was design for gear cutting, larger table, universal table. Been looking for a Standard Leads attachment for ever, if you have one give me a email. I was really lucky to get the overhead attachment and the docking arm.
The best jobs are the ones you can use as an excuse to buy more tools.
I have tried to use a dividing head... my "math battery" in my brain isn't up to it. Today when watching CAD/CAM ops, I tend to think the same thing. All those tables and indexing holes and all the wrenching you do JUST to setup., these darn computers get it done and still wait for us to push a button. Great instructional video!!!
Great video Keith, I particularly enjoyed the in depth explanations. Your last comments regarding not enough clearance caught my attention. Would it not be easier to mount the gear on a longer arbor or delete the chuck and machine the job between centers? It seems pointless to have a universal mill if you can not utilize the angle feature. All that said I would also like to see you set up the universal head. I'm an eat your cake and have it too kind of guy.
Another question, would the 5:1 ratio of the model K mean that it has a lower resolution or accuracy than the 40:1 model H?
Make an adapter plate and you will also compensate the height difference in the dividing head
Glad you cut that shaft down, it was bugging me that it was so long :-). That's an impressive set up though. It's going to be an engineering work of art once it had the universal head on as well.
Hi Keith,
Enjoying following this process.
Love that dividing head.
This has got me thinking.
If its 40:1 on the dividing plate to job. Whats the ratio on the worm gear on the table drive to the plate?
Feel like some time in the future to making an adaption on my small rotary table to be able to do this. Basically a rotary table on a rotary table.
Regards,
Paul
I would turn a brass or copper practice disk before cutting the final cast iron one. Even Wood or Delrin would do.
There’s a product known as “machinable wax” that I watched Steve Watkins use to proof a large bronze nut for a shaper.
The Army got Singer sewing machine company to make pistols. 1911 model. The prototype was so well made they decided to have them make bomb sights instead. The Singer 1911 is very valuable today.
Remington also made M1911A1 pistols during the war.
Like finding a 'Union Switch and Signal' 1911. It is amazing how many old black Singer sewing machines are still able to work today with a little cleaning and oiling.
0- 8:20 "Kinda confusing" You got that right
Nice Job Keith... Listening to the popping, and breathing from your mic is quite a distraction though.
just make a longer mandrel for the gear blank to get the dividing head further away from the overhead support.
I must be very mean but would have made a adapter plate to raise and align the head and the tail stock.
Then finally honesty.😉
Now send it to Abom, for his CNC learning curve.
Now you need to make a longer mounting shaft to give you some more space so you don't hit the dividing head.
How about making a 1/2" spacer plate for the foot. Weld studs at the proper place to position the center properly and mill three slots to match the table slots.
That would definitely be the permanent fix for the foot stock.
In the same vein he could have just clamped the smaller head down. I think it's more that he wants it to be "correct" as KT would have sold it.
Can you move the outboard support in about six inches and mount the cutter outboard of the support to get the clearance you need? You will lose a little rigidity but it should work. I have a benchtop P&W universal mill with a fabricobbled overarm support that lets you mount the cutter out.
What that splined driveshaft really needs is a couple of CV joints. That way you wouldndn't run into the height difference problem with the dividing head, and you wouldn't have to rotate the table at all, you could rotate the dividing head.
I understand how CV joints work at an angle but would they actually transmit power at 45 degrees? Seems a little extreme even for this type.
@@ellieprice363 Yes, they will, especially if you go with 2 of them. Look at the front wheels of any front wheel drive car when the steering wheel is in its full left or right position. That's what 1 CV joint does.
@@LambertZero Thanks, I wasn’t sure about that so I appreciate you confirming it.
When that table started to slide out from under your dividing head I was thinking, "No!"
Could you mount the gear blank on a longer mandrel to get the clearance needed?
I've never machined before but very interested in the trade. With that being said, could have you made a fixture plate for the smaller head to solve alignment issues? Question of curiosity and not criticism. Thank you..
Golly! That's a lot of setup work for just one gear.
Fun for the enthusiast, but unless you're doing some kind of production, it's just not worth it.
I can see why CNC was the next logical step!
Could you make a plate for that center a-liner
18th century plug & pray !
Is it missing a swivel joint 🤣🤣.
seems like it's hard to turn, is it possible that a lock is still engaged?
That looks a lot better as a match.
Keith,
Out of curiosity, could you have used a Cardan shaft to compensate for the misalignment?
Bob
Could you make a riser/adapter for the foot stock?
I look at every job as an opportunity to buy a new tool.
I've lusted after a 10 EE for years. I am curious though has to whatever happened to that Rivett 1020S you had been working on some years ago.
Very please for you
Keith, are you going to cut a test part first to make sure that it works? Thanks
You need to review the last video in this series!
Hey Keith, what ever happened to the Jimmy Diresta band saw?
Couldnt you mill a plate for the foot stock to raise and line up to the dividing head and table slots??. Don't think it would take much time or material. That way it would work for both heads I think..
Would simply a longer Arbor holding the gear blank fixture clearance Issue?
Could you just use a universal joint on the drive shaft?
A universal joint produces clocking errors. Perhaps a CV joint? Simpler solution might be a riser plate for the dividing head?
Keith, may I just confirm that the first hole in the dividing head is zero not one, so that for a 16 hole increment, before you engage the pin, there will actually be 17 holes showing between the sector arms.
No, the first hole is #1 not zero. The movable bar is set to cover hole #17. Each sector is 16 holes. Six indexes = 96 holes for one complete turn.
The rule is 'add 16 holes' from wherever you are. It doesn't matter where you start or what you call the hole numbers.
@@kindablue1959 That’s true as long as you move 16 holes, not 17.
On the center, wouldn't it be possible to just flip the center part around, not the whole block with the cam? It's a bit difficult to see if possible, but it might be.
Well, it looks like the drive shaft may be a tad long after ya get the H attachment on. Oops, didn’t watch long enough. 🤪
So you could’t make a riser spacer /adapter plate for slot spacing, lol.
How in the heck did some engineer ever figure all of this out?
that's what I'm saying, big brains.
Probably because they were actually taught mathematics, how it worked, and why. These days it seems all that's taught is "use this formula, and don't worry about what it all means". I'm in my 50's and I believe that even when I was in school, the emphasis was on getting any answer, rather than trying to teach how to get the correct answer.
IT is indeed incredible what it takes to make all this stuff work!
Okay Keith I understand where you're coming from but my my question would be what about the discs that have the holes in it that you got to use to set it up with does that change also do you have to have different discs from the h to the k just a question I don't know you know what the answer would be I don't all right this is Bob from Vero Beach Florida happy holidays have a great day say God bless and stay safe and Happy Thanksgiving