Monarch 10EE DC Drive Retrofit 1: Gutting the Old Electrical System from the Lathe
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ส.ค. 2022
- Monarch 10EE DC Drive Retrofit 1: Gutting the Old Electrical System from the Lathe
I am retrofitting the old tube based DC drive system - the "works in a drawer" from a circa 1952 Monarch 10EE Lathe with modern electrical components.
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THANK YOU JOHN FROM MINNESOTA 🎇✨🎆
How many remember going to the hardware store and testing the tubes?
Keith, being a electrician for 43 years, just let me say one thing. If you had applied power to that control transformer on the side, and it got hot and started smoking, you have probably compromised the windings in the transformer to a certain extent. I would HIGHLY recommend putting on the new transformer, why go to all that length to rewire it, with all brand new components, and leave a suspect transformer that could possibly damage your new drive.
Keith,
Before you start rewiring your lathe, you might want to consider a DYMO Label Maker. They make labels that are designed for marking wires. Their products include tags and shrink wrap labels.
It may not be a necessity. But it will make trouble shooting far easier.
Bob
My Brother PTH110 does too! It can do wire flags OR you can get heat shrink cartridges. Came in SO handy rewiring my old RX-7. What a rat's nest ;)
Very cool. It would be cool to learn from the redesign of an electrical engineer. Looking forward 👍
Was thinking the same thing. I’d like to see one restored to factory and one completely modernized.
Life was so much simpler with overhead line shafts. :-)
I’m a forklift mechanic and I couldn’t tell you how to do it but I bet a 3 phase DC forklift motor would work great in there.
Kieth, Thanks for documenting this. My machine is currently running on the “Wiad” tube drive like yours had originally. I know the day will come when it will no longer be serviceable for a reasonable price, so I am thankful to watch your process.
6 wire dc motor..whoa that take me back to highschool. Series parallel dc motor. Two poles in series and two switchable shunted poles in parallel for different speed ranges. Three or four speed ranges in total. Complicated, however if it went bad the dc motor could have run on. May want to have motor checked. Run on is when the fields supply current to armature and motor goes up and up in speed till it explodes. Note dc motors it’s fields and armature. Stator is ac or alternator.
Advantage to design is torque. Two shunted fields means low speed but maximum torque. One field shunted is medium speed. None shunted maximum speed. Fourth requires a centrifugal switch for startup. 426 Chrysler hemi starters used a shunted field for extra torque. Hard to find.
Yep, I've experienced runaway on a big shunt connected DC motor when a student started it up without checking that the field winding was excited too. Very scary but the armature fuses saved the day!
@@hectorpascal My lab partner in school 40 years ago couldn't see the field ammeter. He picked up it and the field wire popped off. I never thought a motor could spin that fast. Man, it was wild for a second. I panicked and pulled the power wired out of the wall box. The prof asked if we got a speed measurement. Those were the days!
The DC motor is a Series-Shunt Wound motor. The shunt field is controlled as well as the voltage to the series winding and armature. The original system had armature winding current compensation to compensate for the resistive drop in the windings. The armature voltage is controlled for one speed range and the shunt winding is controlled for the other speed range. The motor armature voltage would be 365 VDC at 200 RPM and 235 VDC at 2000 RPM. The six wires are F1-F2 shunt winding, S1-S2 series winding, and A1-A2 armature winding.
The three "grid controlled rectifier" tubes (thyratron) may be difficult to source today (Type C3J and C16J). The power resistors are 8 ohm 385 watt braking resistors. The whole system could be connected for 460 VAC or 230 VAC operation off one phase of a 3-phase line (L1-L3).
The thyratron tubes now have solid state replacements available.
Steve is exactly correct. When you connect it simply wire the series field in series with the armature and always energize the shunt field before the armature. Jerry Miller
@@ronkellis769 The replacements for the C16J's are $135.00 apiece. the C16J's may be had for $1500 per. And there is no direct replacement for the C3J. Possibly, use the C16J replacement and spice into the C3J circuit. Some readjustment of the electronics may be needed. The replacement should last longer and require fewer technician visits.
@@jrrymiller I would try leaving the series field disconnected first (i.e.open circuit) and see how the system works. A modern DC drive will reverse motor direction by reversing armature voltage and current, without changing the shunt field. If the series field remains connected, its flux will oppose the shunt field flux when running in reverse. Since this is the opposite of what is required, some method of reversing the series field polarity would be required when running in reverse. (Connecting the series field within a bridge rectifier would do the job.)
@@steveschulte8696 I guess it will work but they didn't make it official because the solid state replacement and a new old stock C3J still cost about the same.
Great video sir.
This is a neat project. The electrical upgrades will be very interesting.
Thanks for sharing. 😊
Keith, I purchase used contactors and the like and donate them to a local trade school. I also donate plastic off cuts from a local firm for various trade shops for whatever they can use them for. One instructor had his students machine out some Tyvar for a caliper box, and then they lined them with felt, put a hinged lid on them, and the students had a protective box. In the HVAC class, an instructor cut a squirrel cage fan open and covered it with polycarbonate to safely show them how it operated. The machine shop uses plastic for prototyping before making final projects as it's easier on tooling and if it doesn't work or turn out right, they haven't lost much. If it works out, They then have two. One in plastic, and another in metal.
I hate to see waste, and ame grateful that they found a way to reuse those materials.
Thanks John from Minnesota.
Good show Keith, thank you.
Ooooo, so excited about this project, and the restoration of the other one. This is a mission I'm inspired to try myself in the future, so happy to sit back and watch you go through the trials before I'm anywhere near ready to. 👍
It is amazing that I am so used to transistors. The mechanical switches are just awesome!
Looking forward to learning more about these lesser known electrical applications and solutions.
Well done
Thank you Keith!🙂
Great video Keith, keep'um coming..
Great job
Just another project, Nice!
Got a brand new shiny titanium knee for christmas. YOU sir, have amazingly tough knees!
WOW - John from Minnesota is your savior o this project. Looking forward to following along on the rewire
Looking forward to this one!
Can't wait for the next one !!
I'm so glad you decided to go this way. It will retain the original performance and won't rely on obsolete technology.
That variAC is a beauty!!
Keith, this will be a very cool project, look forward to seeing the details.
I just love TRIMMING up wiring. Good video.
I've been away too long, watching other channels. This is a great discussion and project.
Great work!! Beauty late!! Greatings from the netherlands.
Borrowed phone The turning point video here TH-cam shows just how impressive of company monarch is Nice machine
THANKS KEITH
Very cool! I am so excited to see how you create all the controls. I don't have much electronics knowledge and so I look forward to learning from your experience. Take care.
Thanks for sharing 👍
Most excellent.
Big ups to John from Minnesota.
Good info thanks for sharing
As a electrician I am really looking forward to seeing what y'all came up with.
This is going to be a very interesting series of videos.It would be great if John could give an explanation of the circuit.
Looking forward to this rebuild and like I said in the first video, I'd sure like to have that Variac for my electronics repair I do!!! Its a nice one.
Another video we'll done. Thanks. I agree with taking out the old wires. You won't have to worry about worn insulation/shorts or bad connections. Plus, you can bundle and route the new wires as you see fit.
Thanks for the video🤗😎🤗😎
very nice lath
Fun to see ALL the guts pulled out of one of these! Only a master would attempt this!
I will happy to view the Monarch running with today Electric Technology, thank Keith.. :)
Hi Keith, an idea popped into my head when watching this episode. I think a t slot milled in to some aluminum 2 by 2 bar stock bolted down to the drawer would make perfect sense. That way your assembled panel of electronics could be be slid into the slot and secured quickly.
Thank you for sharing.👍👀
Great to see you working on the Monarch lathe. Like a Ferrari Testarossa I could just look at both of these machines in wonder. I need one(Monarch) to check off a bucket list item.
Hi Keith, very cool video and excited to see what you guys came up with for the update. And first off, don't get me wrong, I'm on board and I'd do the same thing in your place, but I thought you might get a chuckle out of my reaction to part of the video. As a field service engineer for well over 25 years, working on a bunch of different machines, tracking down faults, often wiring faults, watching you snipping all those wires kind of willy nilly is what the young 'uns nowadays would call triggering. Mentally onboard and then just ahh, careful, what! Had to chuckle at myself, so figured you might get a chuckle too. Looking forward to the rest of the update!
Good job👍👍👌👌
we have approx 25 EE 10 monarchs in our company from the 50's --many need retrofits-----just recently our electricians just finished a retro fit kit - on a single machine----we are going to see evaulate it 4 a while then decidecide if that kit is what we want to use on the rest or go to another ---lots of $ involved. I used the for 44 years ------Absolutely best 10 inch tool room lathe made .
About 5 of them have duplicator attachments!!!
The future looks good
I recently found a schematic of the vacuum tube motor controller. It is a surprisingly clever design. While updating the lathe electronics is a practical solution it would be interesting to have a fully functional restoration done on one of the vacuum tube controllers.
Honestly, I like the old chunky electr(on)ics, their controls and how they sound during operation, their hums and clunks.
If it is shot beyond repair and cannot be brought back to life, replacing it unfortunately is the only way.
But someone said it already - a full restore of a few of those systems on old equipment would be awesome!
That variac is good to bring old equipment to voltage for forming the caps . Very good to have. Color coded wiring make life sweet.
Very interesting and in my case very overwhelming
Old machinery built to last but always bloody heavy.
KEITH, CAN'T WAIT, PET AND OR TELL EVERYBODY HELLO, SEE YOU WHEN, GREAT JOB, GREAT VIDEO...
Wow, Keith you certainly have many irons in the fire!
Hello Keith. As we have the same first name. Also another person mentioned that he has electrical background. Yep I even got the last name. MONARCH... and installed some serious machinery. As a complete Engine Block - Honing system. I really enjoy to watch your video's, they are great....
Looking to the next video on this project, maybe look for the wire that has insulation that can be around oil and sulfur or it will crack and short out.
One of the other important reasons Monarch went with a DC drive was to eliminate the phonographing of impulses coming from an AC motor as each phase gives it a 'kick'. Using DC completely eliminates this phenomenon. My 10EE had an Allen-Bradley DC drive retrofitted in it by the then owner Delco (now Delphi), but it never worked correctly. When it died, I didn't bother repairing the drive. Instead, I put a 3.5kW Mitsubishi servo drive and motor in it. Top end is just over 3K so I lose about 1000rpm but I don't think I've ever needed to run anywhere close to that. They retain very good torque at lower RPM's, and will stop the spindle in less than a turn at moderate speeds and masses. My 10EE has the ELSR option on it. I wired 2 prox. switches into the drive inputs for the axis limits and attach them to the ELSR stops at either side with a switch on the control panel for both. If active, they will stop the spindle when the prox turns ON. I just used some random prox. switches I had in stock (not precision types) and again at moderate speeds/mass, it will stop the carriage in < 0.002" consistently, usually it's under a thou. I also have separate speed controls for both forward and reverse. I've been meaning to write it up on Practical Machinist's Monarch forum, but I just haven't had the time. I've run a lot of lathes over the years and I can honestly say nothing comes close to the feel of a Monarch 10EE.
With much focus on the electronics and their connectivity to each other, I would encourage you to document the physical wiring harnesses (particularly lengths, braches, routing) so that a set for your second lathe can be built on the bench. Additionally, those harness build diagrams would be an assets if you share your new drive configuration.
I'm pretty sure he takes a lot more video then what he uses for these videos. I bet there's plenty of documentation on the cutting room floor so to speak.
He has an EE designing this so you know there will be plenty of diagrams to document the install. If this works as planned, it seems there might be a market for a "retro kit"!! A lot of Monarch 10EE owners seem interested.
Looking forward to seeing you build this electrical system. If it's really custom you might have to machine your own heat sinks. There's a video in and of itself.
I'd love to have that machine
I was biting my nails waiting for you to scrap that variac. I'm glad you didn't, a heavy copper one is hard to find at any price.
"I am not going to watch Keith spend 30 mins taking electrical motors and parts out of a 10EE."
- four minutes later -
****Eating blueberries, watching Keith take electrical motors and parts out of a 10EE*****
Just saw 10EE on EBay for $500 with 2015 Baldor smart motor with controls. Might be worth a look.
You are learning just how much a PIA DC is.
It would be interesting to see the lathe restored to original. But you have a good plan that is probably easier to accomplish. It's satisfying to cut everything and rip it out. Will be watching with interest.
Great project! I have a 10 ee that needs an update like this. You should consider putting an emergency cut off somewhere on the lathe. Maybe a foot bar? Remember what happened to Outside screwballs friend Chewy? He got his arm caught in the lathe and was stuck there until someone came to shut it off.
I’m sure the 10EEs are wonderful machines but I found the base cabinet on the headstock end to be in the way. Good luck with this retrofit. It will be an interesting series.
Be kind --- that big Variac is watching you.
it is going to be an interesting retrofit. Hope you put a big wiring diagram on board so we can follow along and show it often during videos. Going to be fun. !!!!!!!!
Wow!
Kind of funny that us machinist want those old lathes restored 100% authentic in the mechanical side but don't care about the electrical. I am sure that those electrical components used by Monarch were also state-of-art and high quality, American made. Unfortunately somebody along the road messed with them.
My late father in law had a monarch with a power and drive conversion similar to that one. He was a machinist and lifelong employee at an Army depot in East Texas, and bought his at surplus auction from that same depot. I'm wondering if there was once an Army contract for monarch power conversions to that same spec.
OBTW those tubes are still being made and used. Some places solid state never got to the level of ability. Very nice Auto-Transformer in the front corner. A keeper !! Vari-AC it must be a GE ! The transformer looks maybe 1 or 2KW . Likely a 1:1 with split windings.
I have one suggestion for you. Since you already have a set of heavy duty saw horses and a hoist, lift the 10EE up and set it on the horses to make access to everything MUCH easier.
I just finished the upgrades on my new 600#, 30 kW solar power inverter. The Keith-clone sawhorses were perfect for the job.
Keith i lost you for a wile but found you again seams that a lot of the old such as OXTOOLS ROB RENSETY and like not much activity there any way found you keep up the good projects
John's great:)
That transformer is original to the ''works in a drawer'' (WiaD) drive system.
Sometimes is just plain enjoyable to cut wires!
Cool... 🙂
A couple lengths of angle (aluminum or steel) sandwiched onto the bottom of your aluminum component plate would provide a good foundation for mounting to the slide drawer.
This has always been my dream lathe, but I doubt I'll ever be able to afford one.
the contactor box (and the other original parts that are to go to the scrap pile) should go to a museum, spare parts are scarce !
My dad used to operate automatic screw machines like that, I believe they were made by Brown & Sharp.
Your "rats' nest" of wiring reminds me of a job I had years ago. Basically, a lot of 440 3-phase circuitry in a control cabinet. I never (in 8 years) could get anybody to tell me WHY the original design used ALL RED WIRE with only a number code at each end! 🤔
I work on a PLC controlled retort system that was originally built in 1989. I worked extensively with the engineer who installed the system. They used ALL BLACK WIRE with number tags. The reason I was told: it made it easier for the guys who were building the panel. They could just grab the end on the spool, stick a number tag on it, pull the required length, cut and put the matching number tag on the other end. then all they had to do was match the wires to the corresponding terminals.
Single color wire simplifies inventory requirements. It does force you to use accurately labeled wires that are identified on wire lists and schematics.
Hi Phil, I've done a considerable amount of control wiring in the past, what I came to realize is there are not enough colors of wire to get most jobs done. its far easier and less time consuming to settle on one color and number them then mark on a print. I did use red only because it was there and easier to see if you had a problem.
Rich
When I did this sort of thing in Canada red wires were DC blue wires were 240 Volts and less black wire was 440 volts and up
The circuit diagrams just had numbers on too. Maybe it was cheaper to buy one huge reel of wire rather than a number of different coloured wires. I've had plenty of machines in my time and they were either all red or all black wiring.
There may have been, or still be, a 240V/120V transformer for operating the light, and possibly a coolant pump. I can see the light so it will need something to power it. Thanks for the video. Jon
Based on the images of the old speed control electronics here is what I think was the design of the old motor speed controller. The key item is the Variac which is a variable AC transformer. It takes the incoming steady AC voltage (220V?) and outputs anything from zero to ~100% of the input voltage or higher. This variable AC then goes to a diode, or better a set of diodes, (probably mounted on the black rectangular heatsink) that converts it to "DC" (half wave or full wave rectification) - but could have been some active high power voltage regulator (depends on the age) - I'd love to see a close up. But only using diodes creates a really lousy DC and if this was sent to the DC motor it wouldn't run very smoothly at all. It would at least need a big bank of capacitors to smooth the DC or, better, a voltage regulator active component (a.k.a. transistor based thingy). Maybe that heavy "transformer" shown at 10:16 is actually a huge filtering inductor which could do the job of the missing capacitors. God knows.
The big old transformer. If the windings don't match, you can have it rewound. Just like big motors can be rewound. After all, you already have the iron you need, and the old copper can lower the price. So you get new copper wires almost from the old turns in the price.
The scrap copper is definitely valuable. The laminations in the transformer may be old enough to predate grain oriented silicon steel (GOSS). GOSS is definitely superior to what was previously used. Outright scrapping might be preferable to a rewind.
You will be glad you field dressed it.Nothing is more irritating than old wiring.Whenever I rewire anything,all the old wiring goes away. I would suggest pulling the motor to clean it inside and out and,check the bearings.
I'm designing a new controller board (dc driver) for my mill from of the shelf Vacon 3-phase VFD.
I started from the field current controller which seems to work, I'll need to measure the field coil inductance and add some if it is too low for my synchronous buck converter.
DC bus voltage is 565volts(Finland and "every" house has 3-phase) and the field coil is 400v 1 amp nominal.
I fully reverse engineered the Vacon power board with all of it's control pins and feedbacks and safety related functions.
I have also a braking resistor (external) so my mill could stop on a dime or as soon it has dumped excess voltage from the DC bus through 2.75kw braking resistor (also Vacon)
I know you’re doing an all new electrical but it just makes me cringe seeing good original equipment (especially vintage mechanically actuated electrical equipment) get hacked out. I swear I could hear the machine screaming 😱 as you were snipping wires left and right … oh wait no that was me 😭.
I really have such huge appreciation for the designers of these early DC electrical systems. On these high quality lathes they didn’t skimp on materials or features. Everything was designed to be rugged and keep performing 50+ years in the future and as we have come to find out many of these machines are actually still going strong 80, 90, or even 100 years since manufacturing.
I am to the age that before I get down on my knees I look around for something I can hold onto to get up off my knees again---I AM CONSIDERING ADDING HYDRALIC JACKS TO BOTH MY ARMS----LOL.
You took an Aluminum plate out of the lathe to make a simple bracket to mount the new plate, weld it at 90 degrees instant mounting bracket to bolt down to the drawer