Cutting Helical Gears on the Horizontal Milling Machine: Setting up the Lead Attachment Part 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ต.ค. 2024
- Cutting Helical Gears on the Horizontal Milling Machine: Setting up the Lead Attachment Part 2
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I suspect, there's thousands of people like me, that have never seen a job like that carried out..
Cheers 👍👌
Will the tapered pin fit back in to align the table perfectly to 45 degrees?
Was going to suggest the same thing!
I am no mill operator, but would there be positive stops for 45 degrees on your mill? I do know that drill presses and radial arm saws have a positive stop at 45, or at least my own do. that would make the 45 as accurate as the 0. I only ask because you were unfamiliar with that feature.
as always, enjoyed the video. thanks for sharing. looking forward to the rest of the story !
Good luck. We are pulling for you.
It is very cool seeing all of these pieces coming together.
Great content thank you
I did some helical milling many years ago,. It was not for gears but for a part for a printing press. I had the extra complication that I was having to make an imperial part on a metric machine.
45 degrees sounds like a large helix angle for a single helical gear, think it would result in guide a high axial force.
45° is rather rare for a helical (at least in my made to order shop) . Usually we make anything from ~8° to 23°30', but we use hobbers.
Way back in 1976 our high school metal shop set up a milling attachment on a lathe to cut a helical pinion gear for a truck axle. It was a very complicated setup and took a very long time.
Why is it that machinists tend to use adjustable wrenches and open end wrenches instead of box end wrenches or sockets, especially when dealing with very tight fasteners? Just curious.
You either have 100 wrenches across all of your machines, or an adjustable at each alongside 1-2 common wrenches per machine. You don't want to not have redundant wrench sizes if using dedicated wrenches because it takes a lot of time to search for which machine had the ¾ inch wrench last.
Just an observation, I may be wrong, but you may have rotated the table the wrong way. From the glimpse we had of the original, it looks like a LH helix. I think your table rotation is set up for a RH.
I have cut 45deg helicals on my Elliott mill using the vertical head tilted to get the cutter angle as it's not a universal machine and sympathise with you over the difficulty of the setup. It really does push the working envelope of the mill.
It’s been decades ago, but if I remember, the tapper screw can be used at nominal intervals to set table dead nuts.
Kieth this is very interesting to see how it was done in years past
Challenging project! Really enjoying the journey.
👍that tapered bolt doesn’t index the table at 45 degrees?😊
Was wondering the same thing.
He would have seen the hole when he had the flashlight on it. You’ll have to go scold Messrs. Kearney and Trecker for not machining more tapered index holes into that big casting.
Just imagine what was going through the minds of the engineers that designed and built that attachment. It's amazing to think that it was so before the computer.
And to think they were also using slide rules to work out the math! I still have a nice Frederick Post one that was my Dad's but I haven't used a "slipstick" in so long I'd probably have to start over to learn how to use it! 🤔
If you peruse old magazines, 1905 and alike, you'll find they did pretty much everything we're doing today, thinking the same too, just with more hat and suit.
@@aserta And safety tie.
Look up differential hobbers if this intrigues you. Automatically generates the gear due to a differential gear train inserted between the index table gears and the feed gears.
Prior to differential hobbers, you'd have to calculate the helix angle lead into the index gears. While this worked, you'd have to run the hobber in reverse in order to return to starting position alignment for a second pass.
Back then they had to use their minds instead of fingers tapping keys. A lot of that mental brain power has now been lost.
Fascinating and sent me running to review the ins and outs of gear design (why helical gears?). I cannot wait to see the machining in action and to learn the problems that you'll encounter. It would seem very easy to get the setup angle opposite what is needed so the test gear would be a very good idea -
Helical gears run extremely quietly. They may or may not last longer because of the way they mesh
In a way I am like Keith. He restores and uses vintage machine tools. I restore and use vintage radios. There is a real head rush when you key a transmitter that has not been used in 80 years, or bring back a 100 year old receiver.
In my early teenage years {early 1960s} I brought home many 1930s-vintage AM radios from the local town garbage dump {long before the safety nannies surrounded our "sanitary landfill" with high fences}. By swapping vacuum tubes between radios I eventually restored a few receivers to full function. Listening in the summer of 1965 to the Stones "Satisfaction" played by a local AM radio station at loud volume on a top-quality 12" electro-dynamic** loudspeaker was a game-changer for me, & the beginning of my career in audio electronics & physics.
How do kids today get their hands on equivalent antiquated tech to learn the basics by experimenting? TH-cam videos are a great resource, but hands on is often superior - you smell hot components, see wax dripping from failing paper capacitors, watch a thick rectifier tube filament start to glow dark red, experience the shock of touching a finger to ~350 volts DC {the back of my skull punched a dimple into the wallboard of my bedroom, a lesson I never forgot}, etc, etc.
** uses an electromagnet field coil that does double duty as the L of an LC filter for the high-voltage B+ rail
@@flat-earther Please take your nonsense elsewhere. What does this have to do with machine work?
I find it amazing that people seem to be able to get old machinery parts from all over and get everything they need to make things work..
Quite often you can make the thing you need if you have a way of finding out the proper dimensions of it.
keith has a big enough audience that he can ask for parts in a video and someone will email him and say they have one.
I appreciate your honesty about your own inexperience at doing this operation. Makes the rest of us feel in good company.
Watching you go through the learning process is very interesting, even if it makes it hard to make a "professional" video. Don't be afraid to take us on the journey with you!
Hi Keith, Please try the tapered bolt into the threaded hole, there may be a tapered hole for it to fit in and lock the table on that angle I love your videos, and watch everyone. Cheers, Lee.
That’s what I was thinking also!
@@paulstanley31 I have a Brown & Sharpe No 2 universal mill from around 1912 and it has a tapered bolt to index the table at O deg. Not a new invention.
I'm curious if there is a locating hole drilled at the 45 degree position that utilizes the pin you removed. It would make sense that the most common angles would have those "detents" in place.
Cool 😎
I sincerely hope you have a couple of apprentices to pass along this knowledge. Thanks, I'm fascinated.
The leg bone's connected to the knee bone,
The knee bone's connected to the thigh bone,
The thigh bone's connected to the hip bone...
Check that tapered pin. On my Deckel FP1 universal table there are tapered pin holes at 0 and +-45 deg.
Apologies if you mentioned it and I just didn't catch it - but is there perhaps another hole for the tapered plug at 45 degrees? Being common angles I wouldn't be surprised if there's a hole for 30 and 45 in either direction. Super weird to see a milling machine with an angled bed though; almost more interesting than the attachment!
As Mortimer Snerd famously said: "Nope . . . .Ah don't think it's gonna work!"
finally helical gears! I've been waiting for one of the youtube machining guys to make some content regarding them.
Look into the tapered pin hole to see if there's a locating taper at 45 degrees. If there is you'll probably have to clean it out first.
If you are an "old school" machining fan, this is as good as it gets!!! Incredibly complex setup. Well done! BTW, I've read through all of the comments available and I don't see the "flat earth guy" and his nonsense! Also, there is no questions about the "stoker project"!! Dang, what is going on??
So, this turns that and then the other goes around and all of it moves forward and when it's all done you get a do-hicky with weird teeth. And the whole thing was invented by Rube Goldberg! LOL I love it.
I wonder if that table has a position with a tapered hole for that pin that was taken out for "common" table angles to assure accuracy.
Certainly a good test part made of aluminum or plastic. Then you can try and adjust.
Also, soft material is better if something goes horribly wrong then you won't damage the milling machine.
After seeing how complicated this set-up is, I realize how much skill was required in order to make parts like the gear you are replicating. Hats off you sir for reminding us that we wouldn't be where we are today without the skills of men from the past.
No matter the machine, generating helical gears is a pain... At least for gear driven machines. I cut gears for a living and thankfully there are good apps for figuring out closest gears for differentials on hobbers. It takes a while to do the figuring longhand.
That is one clever bit of old kit. The set up is insanely complicated though, makes me thankful for computers.
Is 0 degrees the only index point? Thanks for your time. Pete in South Carolina.
I wonder if that tapered pin goes in the 45º as well.
Makes sense why shops that do a fair amount of gear cutting had dedicated machines and operators for these operations
Yep. They are a bit of a PITA to setup, even on a hobber designed for it.
I've been waiting for this. I've had a K&T 2H for some years and I've managed to find the universal head with parking attachment, the dividing head and a complete standard lead box and gears. I also have an incomplete low lead box.
Your Milwaukee is one I never had run . Would love to see videos of running test parts to make sure things are set up right
I really is enjoying this video.
First time I have seen anybody do this on you tube so it is for sure an adventure!
This is going to interesting to say the least
Thair is something you don't see every day.
Seeing the blank still on the arbor does worry me a little bit.
Hope you did read the comments about importance of the timing of the keyway in relation to the gear teeth.
Amazing to see such complex parts being made on manual machines.
Three million billzion ziillion people have comment on that . I'm sure he knows.
I was an MR (machinery repairman) in the Navy for 22 years. I went to MR "C" school in 1976. We cut these gears as well as spur , bevel and the worm and worm wheel.
hello Keith
Just a quick question
What would a fair price for a Barnes Drill press Model 201 1/4
I just do not want to dig myself into a very deep hole .
Thank You
Keith, you might want to look into acquiring some machinists wax for your blanks. Steve Watkins used it on his YT channel to make a part on his CNC machine. It's recoverable and reusable, which will save you $$ in materials.
I love this experiment. Don't send the big brass balls out for scrap, if you suffer some wrinkles.
I can't understand, if the gear blank is rotating, that itself should cut the helix angle of the tooth, but by rotating the table to 45, it seems your repeating the angled cut, thus you should net a perpendicular cut.. Trying to play this through in my mind, but it just ain't computing.. Now I'm VERY intrigued to see the next video. Hmmmmm.....
Thanks for tutorial for helical gear set up❤😂🎉
You might be the first person to use that lead attachment to cut a one-off gear 😁 That's an incredibly large amount of setup, and I assume mostly they would get things ready and cut hundreds of gears over the course of months, then change the setup and cut hundreds more.
I'm not so sure about that. Back before CNC was in wide use, lots of machine shops would have routinely cut gears this way. The machinists would have known their machines from top to bottom, and would have been able to do these setups in their sleep. Just like blacksmiths knew how to work metal using skills largely lost today, the old-time machinists would have had no trouble knocking out the jobs in a timely manner on the machines they had grown up with. Todays technicians do the same but with modern machinery they can do it quicker and to finer tolerances, but it is still amazing to think what was achieved back in the day.
For a real eye opener google the Antikythera Mechanism.
KEITH, LOOKS GREAT, I WILL WAIT ON YOU / I THINK I'M READY TO GO TO WORK/MAYBE, GREAT VIDEO...SEE YOU WHEN...
Thanks for sharing Keith.
I'm calling it now, you are a true living legend.
I actually got my hands on a K&T 2K universal and two of those table lock bolts where broken off in the bottom of the tapered holes, I had to remove the table and saddle off to fix the issues.
Did you check to see if there is an index drilling for the 45 degree setting? If it is similar to a DeWalt RAS there should be an index for the alignment pin on the 45 degree position. I did notice the taper on the pin which is similar to the taper on the RAS at the index points.
Obviously this isn't a simple setup. And I also could see many sample attempts as well. i am sure you don't want to try it on the final gear until you absolutely know the setup is perfect. At least that would be how I would do it...
That sure makes CNC look a whole less complicated.
Great video Keith, keep'um coming..
I am curious to see how you index the gear to align the camshaft timing marks.
hmm isn't this double? i mean, the lead attachment turns it in conjunction with the table 45 deg, but now you set the table on 45 degrees too, so won't that make it cut on 90 deg?
looking at the earlier Video i think the Worm Gears F and G are the wrong way around or even the wrong ratio. That makes for that wrong speed. Your note and the manual differ in that point.
I'm curious if there may be detent holes for that alignment pin at various degrees other than zero.
This takes me back to the sixties making a helical gear when I was an apprentice. The other use for the input connection is for differential indexing.
I couldn't figure out how you were going to get the angle cut on the table without cutting the sides of the gears a lot.
Then you turned the table. Sheesh. I should have known. I can only plead that I've never seen it done. Nice to see it getting done. Thank you.
Are there holes for the tapered lock pin at 15, 30 and 45 degrees???
Does it have a corresponding hole for a 45 degree angle like it does for 0? If so you may be able to reinstall that tapered bolt and have it set right on 45.
I wonder if you can put the tappered pin back in @ 45 degrees?
"When all else fails, go read the manual" Man, that hits pretty close to home 😁
You didn't check to see if the tapered pin would go in at 45 deg?
Read the manual? Isn't that cheating?
Is it possible that the tapered pin will lock the table at set standard angles?
I like the new format. Let’s me see some of your stuff with my busy life.
No idea why he had to turn the table when he could just bend his arbor to 45 degrees and be done with it. 🤔
See if your alignment pin goes in at the 45 degree setting.
I have been waiting for Keith to try this gear cutting set up out.
That's has to be really scary being the first time setting all this up. Also fun and exciting.
Show the teat runs too good teaching moment
Keith just a thought, maybe take and indicate a 45deg angle gauge and check your angle on the table just to make sure your truly at 45 deg
Being close is enough for a functional gear. Being a degree off will slightly change the tooth flank geometry, but I doubt the original was a precision ground gear with tight tolerance.
Keith it is almost like going back to school
Isn't this much easier with the vertical head on tilted to 45 and the cutter in a stub arbor in front or behind the blank rather than above? No need to angle the table.
Probably easier to move the table as it only swings in one plane. With the universal head you have to get it trammed in on two axes.
Does the location pin fit at 45 degrees. It would seem that it probably does. Like many others, I'm sure, can't wait to see it in action.
I thought that too.
Is there a hole for the locating taper pin at the 45 angle?
This makes my brain hurt.
Looking at the setup. It seems to me that the gearbox would be used to cut a gear with a special shaped endmill (tooth) with a vertical attachment. With the table set to the helix angle, wouldn't it be a straight cut? Then you don't need the special gearbox.. Just trying to wrap my head around the setup..
You need a full depth cut across the rotating OD. Keeping the OD static and just feeding across will only have full depth at the center of the overall length across the OD. Rotating brings the OD to top dead center at the cutter .
I’m thinking the same as you, with the table turned to 45 degrees it should be a straight cut. And if you use a regular shaped cutter and the part turns with the cutter engaged wouldn’t it just cut the sides of the teeth off especially as it’s turned to 45 degrees. I thought maybe he would put the vertical head on with an end mill that’s cut to the shape of the gear.
I’m hoping something just clicks in my brain when Keith actually cuts this gear and then I think “Oh Yea” that’s how it works! Lol
@@dumbo800 Understand what you are saying. Makes sense as far as how the tooth is formed. Still have trouble wrapping my head around how the cuter cuts evenly. I guess we'll see.. :D
Wow, this one is making my head spin 😆
arge. did the pin go back in at the 45 mark ? I would think there would be pin holes at standard marks. 15, 22.5 , 30 ect.
This is mind boggling.
What an amazing gizmo!
This is IMMENSELY interesting!!!
Thank you Mr Rucker!!!
one wonders iif that tapered 'plug' has a 45 degree hole to slip into also
This is why you get jaw dropping price quotes from machine shops on what you may mistakenly think is an easy job.
Set Up Time.
This series has been very, very eye opening on what it sometimes takes. Not to mention the very specialized equipment on top of everything else.
Set up is a killer. I remember telling a customer that the final bill would be the same for any number of items between 1 and 10,000 because of set up and minimum material batch sizes to meet specs.
Good morning Keith from the UK, time for a coffee and education ☕😁
Hello Paul. Me too, also in the uk.
Hello there from Oxford England 🏴
It’s the uk Keith Rucker Appreciation Society!!
Thanks 👍❤
Nice project!
Really fascinating series. Your detailed explanation of the setup is extremely interesting. Thank you very much!
As I had to do some helical milling with similar setups recently, I wrote a tiny octave/matlab script which found the (close to) perfect combination of change gears. (Also useful for thread cutting an a lathe.) Feel free to contact me via email (available in the "about" section of my channel) if you are interested.
Hi Keith! I have a FUN suggestion ....Why not invite Tyler to your shop for a Team Video on this complex process. He has cut many helical gears and has this totally De-Bugged. Plus he is articulate, enthusiastic, and very intelligent.
I for one would love to see him get a "Moment in the Sun " with you, so.......Roll out the Red Carpet for Tyler H. from Southern Indiana and you will be happy you did. Thanks, Mark C.
Watching all of that heavy metal meshing intricately, it's amazing. Reminds me of the Brick Experiment Channel, but with iron!
Right nice