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Another reason it's so good in casual beyond just the skill gap is how much more chaotic a 12v12 is compared to 6v6. It's just easier to find someone out of position
Also communication is available to every in competitive (and WILL used against the enemy but mostly middle finger to spy specifically), while casual voice chat is either completely silent (because f2p or don't know what to voice) or meme and rarely competitve unless future/resting member from a competitve team joined in.
Honestly, 12 vs 12 with random crits on is how the game is _meant_ to be played. While the finalists of tf2 tournaments are undoubtably good, I half wonder if the teams they beat would have difficulty winning a 12 vs 12. Take a comp team that aren't finalists, grab 6 other random guys who have lots of hour on FPS games (including tf2) to fill out the team and pit them against 12 other random guys who regularly play tf2? Would the comp team do better than 50%? Yes, but that's probably due to some of the randoms sometimes being friendly. Will they win more than 50% if no one on the server is friendly (or a cheater, casual has too many of those)? I really doubt it would be above 57.1% and it might even actually be a 50% split. Say hit to random crits. Also it's a lot easier to figure out that your "teaammate" who died is walking around when you only have 5 of them and there is a lot less visual noise in these "sterile" order leagues. At least highlander _uses _ all 9 classes and it visual noise from action isn't gone.
@@alex_zetsu The people who aren’t finalists still play tf2 consistently, and for 1000’s of hours. And they all have large amounts of hours in casual. Plus great aim, movement, and even game sense for casual.
Can't agree. The YER requiring L'entranger to just break even on cloak drain will always make it the weakest knife to don, no matter if it's casual or comp. No matter the watch, that drain is painful, and needing L'entranger can limit your offensive plays in a lot of ways over something like stock or even Enforcer, if you're having to deal with razorback snipers in plat div or that kind of stuff. It really is a case where the knife was better before the "buff" imo
Yall act like these comp players are supercomputers. They are nerds playing a videogame as a hobby. This is why the Eternal Reward is so good and people are wrong about this invalidating it, because comp players don't _rely_ on communicating to catch out a spy unless he hasn't even made a play yet! They just like everyone hear the scream of their teammate and instintively and instantly delete the spy automatically without even thinking about it, because all their brain's attention is on other communication. This means that when you start stabbing a group of comp players, there will be a short pause (which is a LOT of time for you) for their brains to even process what just happen, _then_ realize they have to actually ANNOUNCE theyve been stabbed, and then their team has to process *that* (each of these takes roughly a split second obviously, but this is significant) then turn around only to get confused even _more_ because unless the stab victim vocalized in the few words they'll use in order to be as quick as possible that they _died_ instead of just yelling "SPY!" it'll take another two seconds for their team to figure out what is going on and respond accordingly. Of course the situation will vary slightly each instance but at the very beginning after the first stab, that time alone before the _additional_ confusion following can be enough to stab 2-3 players grouped together, and if the group is slightly bigger than that, which is probably the most it is in comp, even if their monkey-brains process the situation quicker, you've reduced a group-vs-you fight into something more managable, where you can either shoot the weakest who remain, assuming you were smart enough to plan this right and leave them last, or only take 2 stabs instead of pushing it to 3 and dip before they even realize you were _there._ This sounds like I'm buttering this knife up (lol) but with how the Kunai performs polar-opposite in competitive, it's no surprise the best comp knives are the Big Earner & the Eternal Reward. The first gives so much more flexibility when you blow your cover after the first stab, and the second doesn't even takemaway from your base health. Is the reduced cloak still bad? Yes, but using the L'etranger anyway is a no-brainer, increased cloak-drain or not because it's just such a direct-upgrade of a weapon and considering you are discouraged from shooting with the Eternal Reward to begin with, it removes the downside with cloak to spare.
@@vyor8837 that's the point. If you want to make the weapon concept balanced in competitive you need to buff it, but it's already strong in casual so the balance would be even worse there.
@@CyrogenicNation so alter it so it works. Make it like the eylander, just with a bigger 35hp jump per backstab. Go to, say, 90hp at base, first stab would be 125hp, second is 160, then 195, cap it with the fourth stab at 230hp or at stab 3's 195. When you get a stab you get a flat 40hp heal. This solves every problem with the knife.
@@vyor8837 not sure how that would look in practice, and we could end up with entirely new problems instead. 3 stabs for a permanent 195 health means that after 3 stabs Spies could play at the frontlines with more health than a demoman, which is interesting for gunspies but might also be pretty annoying paired with the dead ringer. I don't really want to argue over that rework idea tbh, to go back to the main point I just think that 12v12 and HL or 6s are too different to make weapon balancing for all formats not as easy as it sounds. Competitive runs on different rulesets and restrictions that makes certain weapons stronger or weaker in it.
I never do this, but I'd like to make some counterarguments to the points you made in this video. 1:45 The lower base health does make it more difficult for the Kunai to get that first stab, but when you get a stab with the Big Earner, it still has a significant downside of -25hp. With the kunai, once you get that first stab it no longer has a real downside until you drop below 125hp. 2:31 That's true, a Spy with 210hp at base isn't that much more threatening, but after that first stab, your health depends on how many backstabs you can get. If you take 209 damage and then get a second stab, you had the equivalent of 280-420hp. 3:23 While the YER is better for remaining undetected AFTER you get the first stab, getting there in the first place is a lot more difficult than with the Kunai since the YER inhibits your disguise BY inhibiting your cloak. You basically HAVE to use the Cloak & Dagger and/or the L'etranger so you're not constantly running out of cloak. 5:47 The health drain isn't that fast; Spy's max overheal from a kunai backstab is higher than his max overheal with stock, so it takes longer for a kunai Spy to drop to 125hp, even if the Kunai's overheal doesn't (allegedly) have reduced overheal decay. And that overheal goes right back up if you get another stab, so it lets you be more reckless in general. 5:50 Your overheal only went up to 185, and then you immediately took ~37 damage, so you only would have lost ~23hp in the 8-9 seconds it took for your health to drain to 125. 6:06 You started with 9hp and ended with 44hp. If you hadn't already gotten a backstab this life, then this would absolutely be the Kunai's fault. But if you did get a stab, then the Kunai's the reason you're alive, assuming the overheal didn't wear off before you took damage. As a side note, I find it funny how the sponsor section is 1 second longer than the Good Things section. And despite my rebuttals, this was a good video, well organized.
0:30, I think Fish would actually agree with you, he said it in his own video, that he thought stock was superior in competitive and in other videos aswell where he admitted that snipers best rifle, isnt the best in competitive, because you die more often and have less heads to shoot.
I think the problem with the kunai in casual is that it's usually paired with the dead ringer so spy becomes fast and tanky. The reason it feels annoying is that you are actively being punished for trying to punish the kunai spy. My proposed rework would be the longer overheal decay time paired with increased damage vulnerability when cloaked, which should mostly effect deadringer spy and not effect regular spy. Vulnerability would be 20% which should counteract the resistance from regular watches(which shouldn't matter since you usually die cloaked anyways) and reduce the DR to 55%, something more manageable so the spy isn't just erasing all the damage you tried to inflict. Just don't get hit when you're cloaked, you have longer overheal time so take your time.
@@asierx7047 Diamondback is also an example of a weapon that's less problematic in Competitive where the enemies know what they're doing. When it gets you in Casual, it's usually because someone on your team is feeding the enemy Spy.
@@asierx7047 Oh, you're right it is banned by UGC. I dunno, to me it feels like the kind of weapon that's less problematic the more level the playing field, but at the same time, I guess that the double crit off of a sapped teleporter might have pushed it over the edge.
This video explains my frustration about the kunai balance discussion so well that I might just start quoting this video from now on when people start crying about it. The biggest counter to any spy, especially kunai spy is being competent enough to remember the spy class exists when he isn't actively stabbing you
is it really a valid complaint if its literally a weakness all knifes have and the kunai can ease the blow of such encounters when you get a expanded pool of hp :7
@@Sleepy_Cabbage the kunai really does just push the risk and reward mentality more compared to other knives If you are simply just more aware of your surroundings the upside instantly gets nullified and the downside becomes extremely punishing which is exactly why the weapon is seen as a pub stomping tool against less experienced players So basically its: If you are bad you will suffer even more than normal. If you are good you will get a free spy kill every 35 seconds or so
id argue the eternal reward or big earner does risk vs reward much better since it doesnt come at the expense of the enemies teams agency, if you get caught as spy, that should be it, or the only reason you got away was threw out-witting your seekers, meanwhile ive scene many clips of a kunai spy clumsily escaping an encounter as his back gets shredded, but cause of his extra hp, this clunky method of playing spy is rewarded and creates a terrible co-dependancy for many spy mains who cant play without that extra hp to escape the enemy, by the very least the eternal reward needs you to improvise the disguse to fool nearby enemies and the eternal reward still has roomed for you to get fucked for playing like a clutz even if you have its bonus, all this to say it still leaves room for the enemy teams agency. One of Spys core principles is if you get caught, you should be fucked, which is spys general dynamic with the enemy team unless he out smarts them with his postioning and stealth. the kunai in its current state however just goes against a core principle of how spy should work by making his means of escape all the more easier with the extra hp, and then invalidating the effort of a single enemy who had every right to kill you if it werent for that extra hp.
@@Sleepy_Cabbage I understand what you mean but I don't think the spy should be instantly dead if he gets caught off. Think we both just have different thoughts on the characters playstyle. I was gonna write up another long paragraph about how the whole "spy should be just dead when he gets caught" mentality but I have seen people preach it so many times that I can't give time to argue against it anymore. The spies extra hp is earned and whenever I am fighting an overhealed spy I enjoy it because I am actually fighting another player instead of just one shotting them and getting a free point in the leaderboards
Kunai was the surfing knife before the chaining knife... don't quote my bias on that hehe. As far as reasonable balance changes, you could cap the health you can steal from a player to say, 125, and make the overheal drain slower to compensate. Essentially for each stab you get, you gain the life points of a whole spy 8)
@@Zhasper ok let me unfold here Realistically , spy only probably gets a glimmer of overheal on respawn rolling forwards kindly ask and did get respond with crit heal . That is if you're not playing an against odd team in a competitive match , or find even one medic in casual doesn't play for their personal friend pocket/best power class available . Mechanically , clocking prevent medibeam connect to a spy to begins with . On top of within the prototype vision building the game spy is expected to be sustained by consuming enemy resource , ammo / health pack or enemy medic (much as we know fooling a enemy with disguise in a none intense game especially without threatening teammate in the same casual game isn't as viable in 2024 , let alone pass enough to soak heals or Uber besides the rare high moments)
So nice to finally see this video. I have genuinely considered learning to make videos just to get this across to people. Many of Spys biggest issues are multiplied by peoples insistence on picking the Kunai, when you can play a supportive and helpful role if you don't go all in on the trickstab 1v1 loadout and actually use your gun (something the Kunai punishes HEAVILY)
Buff/Tweak: keep overheal drain rate the same, but make being invisible slow the drain rate considerably. That way you can get a stab and have a reasonable amount of time to make a big play with the health boost
Tbh weapons like the Kunai make me realize how I feel like there’s just a lot of weapons that frankly aren’t really able to be balanced well for all levels, I feel like one point you missed is how casual has 12 players which usually makes a difference. Though tbh outside of that pretty much all snowball weapons suffer from the issue of one bad player making the other opponent stronger. Outside of that I see the opposite case a lot as well, like the Quick-Fix being kind of underwhelming in casual and banned in comp, which makes me feel like some weapons should just be designed for one side because it’s nearly impossible to make them useful for both sides without making it a different weapon entirely.
The kunai takes 36 seconds to drain from 210hp to 125hp. Over half a minute of being better off than you'd be with any other knife. It does NOT need to last any longer.
Rating a knife based off the competitive scene is irrelevant. Most people don't play competitive, the scene is barely alive to begin with so really all this video was made for was to be an ENTP devils advocate edgelord for 10 minutes
"But lowering the Kunai's overheal would ruin it in casual!" "Yes." Should have ended right there. No need for further discussion. Please for the love of god ruin this knife in casual so Spy mains actually need to develop a personality and any sense of individuality instead of defaulting to the knife that has no downsides in casual play.
I think either balance change would work, my first suggestion just cuts it down in casual play too. I did wanna show both perspectives tho cause there are a lot of people (mostly spy mains) who don’t have a problem/like the current Kunai
I disagree You see this is kind of like training wheels for everyone but that spy, it lowers their base health so that if you do find him he will die instantly but if you dont find him you will die instantly, it helps the enemy team train themselves to look for spies instead of not doing that.
12:24 I don't understand why people go melee as soon as they see a spy but I could assume it happens of the trickstabs being as dumb as in this clip. It's just not meant to be a backstab in these conditions
I don't think its possible to balance for both scenes. The kunai is already super strong in casual and shouldn't accept any buffs and if it does it could end up being banned for competitive anyways, spy already plays an important role (information gathering and single picks) and being able to face tank should be a part of it. If anything, it should be nerfed, fuck competitive
The weapon feels awful, it basically is "what if the same high risk high reward concept of the Big Earner, but instead of getting something that helps you do your job even better or get away, you become a shittier Demoknight" Big Earner makes it so you can go for chain stabs, or get more lenient strafe stabs. Or you can get away and reposition, it's perfect. But the moment the Kunai gets a stab, you are incentivized to stay in the fight because of the health draining away. Only, you are now a decloaked spy in the middle of the enemy. You're not being sneaky, you're not looking for smart decloak spots anymore. You're running into the fray with 170 HP and spy speed because if you don't get another stab immediately you're pretty much guaranteed to die. It runs contradictory to the core gameplay loop of spy
Love the video cyber. I think the main problem with the kunai in casual is not the max health but the gain with each stab, perhaps changing it to a 2:1 enemy health to health gained then changing the max health would be a good fix. Also sorry for being so weird last time we went against you, I was on new meds
3:18 Casual players be like: "OMG KUNAI SO BROKEN YOU CAN'T EVEN KILL SOY BEFORE HE DOES CHAINSTABS" Heavy be like: *haha, now u die* 😊 *killa spy in a second* It's WILD how people pretend Kunai is that strong
Hmm yes the class with 500~ sustained hitscan dps kills a spy fast. Most classes don’t get that unfourtunately and since being in melee range of a spy is suicidal with most classes, you don’t get that full damage ramp up. So now your rtk increases by 1-2 with basically every class and if you’ve played spy or hell even a pick class being you’ll know given .5-1.5 seconds is pretty useful
I think the Kunai is the perfect example of "Everything is good against bad players". Like, yea, a spy can do a lot with it in casual because your team will feed them backs like no tomorrow. But even if your team is decent they will make that first stab not worth much.
I think that with this weapon you can see why the competitive format (mainly 6v6) and the casual format are incompatible, both would have to be extremely medicated to do it
i'd rip out my liver. spit on it. throw it in the toilet. and feed it to the homeless man down the block only to erase the kunai from everyone's memory and in tf2 god this thing gets horded by spy mains and it's not even that good on experienced players
Kunai is just annoying, very annoying, specially when these guys pair it with the Deadringer. This is why I go Mad Milk Scout when theres more than one edgelord trickstabber on the enemy team, they instantly become free kills
10:40 it doesn't fix infinite health with infinite chainstabs problem. Yeah having it take approx 1 second to fill would make spy being hard focused cause a lot of attention more fair.
9:40 Just cause it's situational doesn't mean it's not broken thought either. The kunai follows the same issues as other snowballing weapons in tf2 the difference being the kunai is as you said more punishing. I'd say it's flawed design is similar to that of the baby's face and bazaar bargain. It's punished hard for situations out of the players control and very powerful for highly skilled players.
I predict this, when Spy Mains realise how good Big Earner is(or kunai gets nerfed by Valve...) you'll atart seeing Tf2ubers suddenly think "Omg, is Big Earner OP?!? WHY DO WE GIVE SPY SCOUT'S SPEED?!?!? THAT'S OP!1!1!1!1! 😱😱😱"
The best fix for weapons is just exclusive stats for competitive and exclusive stats for casual because no one gave a shlt about competitive competitive players shoul stick with their default weapons
@@Kalergi_Plan_Accelerationistwhat’s the difference between comp and casual? Is it trying two win? Is it rbs and crits disabled? Is it taking the game more seriously? Is it using communication? Is it discouraging stacking a class? Is it queueing as a party? All of these happen in casual or even casual community servers either explicitly or implicitly, so what’s the difference. Even when the competitive scene was much smaller items were still changed around people playing without stuff in casual, like the blutsager’s downside was no random crits until valve realized it was a straight upgrade in servers without it, so there’s at least some thought going intwo designing around a more competitive experience even very early on
I thought a fun way to balance the Kunai would be to emphasize the Conniver in Conniver's Kunai by having you place a mark on an enemy that only you can see from any range via the Reload Key while holding it. At default you'd take half an enemy's health as overheal, but if you place a mark on them and wait, you can get up to 100% of their health as overheal. It's not like an idea I'm super proud of, but has been a fun thought experiment for me. Personally, if I was introducing the Kunai into TF2 back when it was first designed, I would've given it the ability to be throwable with a rope attached to it that can be used to climb walls and hit players from afar, but Valve had an idea for a theme gimmick where Japanese style melee weapons would give overheal, which is 2 weapons in total. Sadly, Scout doesn't get Nunchucks and Heavy doesn't get Sai's or Batons to encourage use of their Melee, and Soldiers just have better melee options than the Half-Zat. A struggle in balancing the Kunai is it's simplicity, and disrupting that simplicity could have major reactions from all kinds of people, which is probably why Valve didn't really touch the thing, and probably wouldn't want to even if they didn't develop an allergy to TF2.
If you were to do the "remove health drain" stat i would recommend simply making so cloak no longer gives damage resistance or reduces it after a successful stab. It will still remove status effects faster but this is mostly to combat that the biggest issue (atleast in casual) which is kunai + DR. TL;DR You swap out damage resist for the extra health.
The problem with kunai is chainstabs leading to insane amounts of tanked damage, and it can easily be countered by giving the knife a timer before it can steal health. Like 4-5 seconds cooldown to steal health again is all this knife needs to be tolerable in casual. It also can be buffed by giving 230-240 max overheal to compensate for the nerf.
Kunai buff: Upon backstab, instantly cloaks you in a millisecond instead of a gradual fade + 1 granted insta uncloak for each kill (similar to diamondback or frontier justice revenge crits system). Side note: Feature not compatible with Dead Ringer.
the problem with the kunai i feel like isnt really the kunai itself, but really the lack of a proper mmr system in tf2. If tf2 matches queued equally skilled players with each other the kunai would be an acceptable sidegrade in casual
Personally I’d just increase the push fource taken. It’s easier two disrupt by just blasting the spy around but at the same time a spy that knows two surf rockets and damage is crazy dangerous and fun, also probably making the overheal decay correctly over 15 seconds. Comp wise I’m not so sure when you got the big earner
Weird thought, what about a total rework to the Kunai? Instead of gaining health on kill, you instantly activate your cloak with no fade-out? It would go from the ultimate chain-stab knife to the ultimate getaway knife. Get a backstab and _poof_ you're gone. For balance, I'd probably go with reducing the cloak recharge speed, rather than reducing cloak duration. Thus, you have the regular amount of time being invisible, but you need to spend it more wisely. The concept could have interesting interactions with the Dead Ringer. You could make it fail to activate the DR if the watch isn't ready, _or_ be able to activate the Dead Ringer at any time, bypassing its restrictions. Both options could be balanced with some tweaks, I think, and both could be fun.
I remember playing on a custom weapon server with a knife just like that and it's very frustrating to play with. The Kunai is good at chainstabs, but it also doesn't prevent you from the option to escape. This hypothetical instant cloak knife will mess you up if you're in a good position to chainstab because you need to decloak before stabbing someone else. It's like accidentally running into a razorback in the middle of a chain. Your option to exploit a chainstab is severely discouraged, so now your playstyle is mostly limited to this one very specific stab and escape tactic.
counterpoint: this still gives a benefit, meanwhile the YER is invalidated by talking to each other. leaving you with shittier cloak for nothing. "YER Spy me" and suddenly the weapons gimmick doesnt matter
good video idk if i would say its spies worst weapon in comp, or that its bad in comp, but i agree with your ideas, and i really think the best change to the weapon, is just not changing it, people will complain about it in casual, but the same issues happen with top level players of any class
One thing that could be done is make it so the Deadringer removes all your overheal if you still have any when it activates. Kunai's strongest with the Deadringer because it removes the vulnerability of having 70hp.
i prefer the first rebalance, the kunai is absolutely broken in casual due to the massively increased player numbers and skill gap of players, in fact i would even say scrap the minimum buff to encourage kunai spys to kill specifically high health targets as opposed to simply running into other peoples fire fights and gaining 55 health from a nearly dead enemy especially if the overheal drain is entirely removed.
I think an even more evil change would be interesting. Like this : Keep everything but. *Remove max hp limit from backstabs but no overheal from medic* . What do you think? Its pretty much more risk more reward.
I think that balancing the Kunai like the Eyelander and Bazaar Bargain would be the best way to change it. Something like: Pros: +25 hp and max hp on kill up to 200. Cons: Default hp set at 75. Capping at 5 kills just like the Eyelander.
The Kunai sucks because spy as a class sucks in comp, it relies on deceit (lack of communication) and sound queues to not be notice by players for Spy to be effective, two things any good player (even in casual) actually has
To summarize : Kunai bad in competitive because when the enemy team doesnt have stupid people the spy can't farm stabs and be immortal like he usually is in casual with the kunai
I agree with most of the information presented in this video. Surf escapes are plausible with most knife health though. I see the point you were trying to say but I wouldn’t say it’s an amazing benefit. For knife heavy spies big earner is also just way better. Raw and you are right.
Honestly the best idea I've heard for a change to the kunai is just give it a downside that doesn't interact with the health steal like idk make it so you take longer to cloak and decloak (don't take that stat seriously it's just what I thought up first) it's the same problem with the eyelander it's downside is completely negated after a certain point (although I do concede that the kunais benefits aren't permanent)
yes, but this paper in here says you're wrong so... jk, it's always nice to see a spy analysis (even tho I don't even touch spy and main pyro) and one focused on the sub niche of competitive, where spy is even less played than my total playtime with the class.
I really dont mind the kunai in casual, and my main reason is that if a spy heals off my team, thats my teams fault, that spy cant kill me unless im bad and let them trickstab me, which is my fault. Kunai is only a issue for people who arent aware (which is spys main target lol)
I've been playing spy since 2015 or 2016 (I joined 2015), I've mainly used stock my entire team fortress 2 career, with an occasional Yer mixed in from time to time. Once Jungle inferno released changing the stats on the Yer, I started using it more. I completely agree that the Yer is NOT A BAD WEAPON. It's pretty good but what I don't like is the -33% drainrate. To use that knife it need the le'tranger. That's my biggest beef with it, any other revolver is just not good with the yer. I started to branch out last year on using the big earner and the kunai, I didn't like either knife. That reduce max health is very punishing for both of these knives. Epsecially the Kunai, when I started to try it, I got the exact same mindset that you spoke in this video. The only upside to this knife is the constant health on kill. 210 health is not very much and with the health drain rate, you'll be at 200 or below 185 soon enough. Here's the thing. Scouts will still two shot you if they are up close, soldiers will have an easier time two shotin' you because the max rampu up can go above 105 from ranges where the soilder may not take any damage, and even (this goes for scout too) the drainrate will make you two shottable within a few seconds to go below 105. Demoman will most of the time (if using pipes) will two shot you; because 10 health on a drain rate is not that long. A heavy still mows down a solider at point blank range in under a second, the time it will take to kill a full health overhead junai spy will only be barley any longer. Sniper won't be able to quick scope you, but if he sees you, he can just charge up a shot to 200-210 or even less, because in reality as you said, the kunai is still loud. People will just instantly shoot you taking your overhead away unless you're getting stab after stab. These are my problems with the kunai. My brain is a bit autisitic, I do not understand trcikstabs very well for all the years I've played. I understand be on their back and click m1. Which has been the way I play spy, I have accidentally gotten trickstabs but not on purpose. Unless someone is a God at abusing the melee hit reg and hitboxes, this knife is not good. As state at the top, the only way that knife will be good, is if you can constantly get stabs to heal yourself.
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Also big thanks to Raw for helping get footage for the vido and giving a lot of great feedback in production! MY GOAT!!!!
finally, the kunai is bad.
seeing as how the link doesnt work im sure theres a 90% chance it was a phishing site
@@FreakyHimmel does it not work anymore? I can at least say it wasn’t a phishing site lol. If you know yahiamice, he made the site with a few others
@@FreakyHimmel (at least I hope it’s not) 💀
Another reason it's so good in casual beyond just the skill gap is how much more chaotic a 12v12 is compared to 6v6. It's just easier to find someone out of position
Also communication is available to every in competitive (and WILL used against the enemy but mostly middle finger to spy specifically), while casual voice chat is either completely silent (because f2p or don't know what to voice) or meme and rarely competitve unless future/resting member from a competitve team joined in.
He was talking about competitive HL. Not sixes
9v9 highlander comp, where spy is actually played lol
Honestly, 12 vs 12 with random crits on is how the game is _meant_ to be played. While the finalists of tf2 tournaments are undoubtably good, I half wonder if the teams they beat would have difficulty winning a 12 vs 12. Take a comp team that aren't finalists, grab 6 other random guys who have lots of hour on FPS games (including tf2) to fill out the team and pit them against 12 other random guys who regularly play tf2? Would the comp team do better than 50%? Yes, but that's probably due to some of the randoms sometimes being friendly. Will they win more than 50% if no one on the server is friendly (or a cheater, casual has too many of those)? I really doubt it would be above 57.1% and it might even actually be a 50% split. Say hit to random crits. Also it's a lot easier to figure out that your "teaammate" who died is walking around when you only have 5 of them and there is a lot less visual noise in these "sterile" order leagues. At least highlander _uses _ all 9 classes and it visual noise from action isn't gone.
@@alex_zetsu The people who aren’t finalists still play tf2 consistently, and for 1000’s of hours. And they all have large amounts of hours in casual. Plus great aim, movement, and even game sense for casual.
Who knew that the biggest nerf the Kunai could receive is an enemy team with braincells....
I stan the YER (or the Big Earner) forever, FUCK the Kunai
Disguisepilled YERcells rise UP!
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Can't agree. The YER requiring L'entranger to just break even on cloak drain will always make it the weakest knife to don, no matter if it's casual or comp. No matter the watch, that drain is painful, and needing L'entranger can limit your offensive plays in a lot of ways over something like stock or even Enforcer, if you're having to deal with razorback snipers in plat div or that kind of stuff. It really is a case where the knife was better before the "buff" imo
Yer is good but if the enemy team uses voice chat then idk if it works well anymore. Do any Highlander players utilize it?
Voice communication, spy’s biggest weakness 😭
True
Yall act like these comp players are supercomputers. They are nerds playing a videogame as a hobby. This is why the Eternal Reward is so good and people are wrong about this invalidating it, because comp players don't _rely_ on communicating to catch out a spy unless he hasn't even made a play yet! They just like everyone hear the scream of their teammate and instintively and instantly delete the spy automatically without even thinking about it, because all their brain's attention is on other communication.
This means that when you start stabbing a group of comp players, there will be a short pause (which is a LOT of time for you) for their brains to even process what just happen, _then_ realize they have to actually ANNOUNCE theyve been stabbed, and then their team has to process *that* (each of these takes roughly a split second obviously, but this is significant) then turn around only to get confused even _more_ because unless the stab victim vocalized in the few words they'll use in order to be as quick as possible that they _died_ instead of just yelling "SPY!" it'll take another two seconds for their team to figure out what is going on and respond accordingly. Of course the situation will vary slightly each instance but at the very beginning after the first stab, that time alone before the _additional_ confusion following can be enough to stab 2-3 players grouped together, and if the group is slightly bigger than that, which is probably the most it is in comp, even if their monkey-brains process the situation quicker, you've reduced a group-vs-you fight into something more managable, where you can either shoot the weakest who remain, assuming you were smart enough to plan this right and leave them last, or only take 2 stabs instead of pushing it to 3 and dip before they even realize you were _there._
This sounds like I'm buttering this knife up (lol) but with how the Kunai performs polar-opposite in competitive, it's no surprise the best comp knives are the Big Earner & the Eternal Reward. The first gives so much more flexibility when you blow your cover after the first stab, and the second doesn't even takemaway from your base health. Is the reduced cloak still bad? Yes, but using the L'etranger anyway is a no-brainer, increased cloak-drain or not because it's just such a direct-upgrade of a weapon and considering you are discouraged from shooting with the Eternal Reward to begin with, it removes the downside with cloak to spare.
Us big earner players gonna show you kunai players who truly the god tier spy players.
Ankle Breaking French
Unlike kunai spies
I actually respect you guys
Thanks pally!
Why do people hate kunai again?
Also if u rly want to prove it u can 1v1 me mate
Seeing raw get air blasted over and over again is cathartic
He never knows when to give up a stab
Spy when enemies can communicate (his efficient is reduced to zero):
At that point, you might just be better off harassing with the enforcer assuming that's not banned
People assuming teens in a videogame are supercomputers, when I use the Y.E.R.
2:00 ultrakill spotted!!!!
MANKIND IS DEAD
BLOOD IS FUEL
HELL IS FULL
NOOO THE UPWARD PUB SPOT TRICKSTAB MADE IT IN, bro tapped me on the shoulder like "hey look whats that over there"
This weapon is a good example of "Balanced in competitive does NOT mean balanced in casual"
It's not really balanced in either of them. Too weak in one and too strong in the other.
@@vyor8837 I think it's fine in competitive
@@vyor8837 that's the point. If you want to make the weapon concept balanced in competitive you need to buff it, but it's already strong in casual so the balance would be even worse there.
@@CyrogenicNation so alter it so it works. Make it like the eylander, just with a bigger 35hp jump per backstab. Go to, say, 90hp at base, first stab would be 125hp, second is 160, then 195, cap it with the fourth stab at 230hp or at stab 3's 195. When you get a stab you get a flat 40hp heal.
This solves every problem with the knife.
@@vyor8837 not sure how that would look in practice, and we could end up with entirely new problems instead. 3 stabs for a permanent 195 health means that after 3 stabs Spies could play at the frontlines with more health than a demoman, which is interesting for gunspies but might also be pretty annoying paired with the dead ringer.
I don't really want to argue over that rework idea tbh, to go back to the main point I just think that 12v12 and HL or 6s are too different to make weapon balancing for all formats not as easy as it sounds. Competitive runs on different rulesets and restrictions that makes certain weapons stronger or weaker in it.
"competitive players" on their way to not hear a YER stab
competitive players not seeing the yer half-cloaked bodies because they turned off ragdolls
I wouldn't have expected the kunai to be the exact opposite in competitive when compared to casual situations. Great video mister wizard.
I never do this, but I'd like to make some counterarguments to the points you made in this video.
1:45 The lower base health does make it more difficult for the Kunai to get that first stab, but when you get a stab with the Big Earner, it still has a significant downside of -25hp. With the kunai, once you get that first stab it no longer has a real downside until you drop below 125hp.
2:31 That's true, a Spy with 210hp at base isn't that much more threatening, but after that first stab, your health depends on how many backstabs you can get. If you take 209 damage and then get a second stab, you had the equivalent of 280-420hp.
3:23 While the YER is better for remaining undetected AFTER you get the first stab, getting there in the first place is a lot more difficult than with the Kunai since the YER inhibits your disguise BY inhibiting your cloak. You basically HAVE to use the Cloak & Dagger and/or the L'etranger so you're not constantly running out of cloak.
5:47 The health drain isn't that fast; Spy's max overheal from a kunai backstab is higher than his max overheal with stock, so it takes longer for a kunai Spy to drop to 125hp, even if the Kunai's overheal doesn't (allegedly) have reduced overheal decay. And that overheal goes right back up if you get another stab, so it lets you be more reckless in general.
5:50 Your overheal only went up to 185, and then you immediately took ~37 damage, so you only would have lost ~23hp in the 8-9 seconds it took for your health to drain to 125.
6:06 You started with 9hp and ended with 44hp. If you hadn't already gotten a backstab this life, then this would absolutely be the Kunai's fault. But if you did get a stab, then the Kunai's the reason you're alive, assuming the overheal didn't wear off before you took damage.
As a side note, I find it funny how the sponsor section is 1 second longer than the Good Things section. And despite my rebuttals, this was a good video, well organized.
0:30, I think Fish would actually agree with you, he said it in his own video, that he thought stock was superior in competitive and in other videos aswell where he admitted that snipers best rifle, isnt the best in competitive, because you die more often and have less heads to shoot.
I think the problem with the kunai in casual is that it's usually paired with the dead ringer so spy becomes fast and tanky. The reason it feels annoying is that you are actively being punished for trying to punish the kunai spy.
My proposed rework would be the longer overheal decay time paired with increased damage vulnerability when cloaked, which should mostly effect deadringer spy and not effect regular spy.
Vulnerability would be 20% which should counteract the resistance from regular watches(which shouldn't matter since you usually die cloaked anyways) and reduce the DR to 55%, something more manageable so the spy isn't just erasing all the damage you tried to inflict. Just don't get hit when you're cloaked, you have longer overheal time so take your time.
It would be nice for the DR give the mark for death after decloacing with it
it kinda shows that like every "op" weapon in tf2 are actully because it's casual mode and not because it's actually good
Except the diamondback (screw the diamondback)
@@asierx7047 Diamondback is also an example of a weapon that's less problematic in Competitive where the enemies know what they're doing. When it gets you in Casual, it's usually because someone on your team is feeding the enemy Spy.
Wrangler (banned in 6s & 4s, hard meta for engie in every other format)
@@invenblocker i might be wrong but isnt the dia literally banned
@@asierx7047 Oh, you're right it is banned by UGC.
I dunno, to me it feels like the kind of weapon that's less problematic the more level the playing field, but at the same time, I guess that the double crit off of a sapped teleporter might have pushed it over the edge.
This video explains my frustration about the kunai balance discussion so well that I might just start quoting this video from now on when people start crying about it. The biggest counter to any spy, especially kunai spy is being competent enough to remember the spy class exists when he isn't actively stabbing you
is it really a valid complaint if its literally a weakness all knifes have and the kunai can ease the blow of such encounters when you get a expanded pool of hp :7
@@Sleepy_Cabbage the kunai really does just push the risk and reward mentality more compared to other knives
If you are simply just more aware of your surroundings the upside instantly gets nullified and the downside becomes extremely punishing which is exactly why the weapon is seen as a pub stomping tool against less experienced players
So basically its: If you are bad you will suffer even more than normal. If you are good you will get a free spy kill every 35 seconds or so
id argue the eternal reward or big earner does risk vs reward much better since it doesnt come at the expense of the enemies teams agency, if you get caught as spy, that should be it, or the only reason you got away was threw out-witting your seekers, meanwhile ive scene many clips of a kunai spy clumsily escaping an encounter as his back gets shredded, but cause of his extra hp, this clunky method of playing spy is rewarded and creates a terrible co-dependancy for many spy mains who cant play without that extra hp to escape the enemy, by the very least the eternal reward needs you to improvise the disguse to fool nearby enemies and the eternal reward still has roomed for you to get fucked for playing like a clutz even if you have its bonus, all this to say it still leaves room for the enemy teams agency.
One of Spys core principles is if you get caught, you should be fucked, which is spys general dynamic with the enemy team unless he out smarts them with his postioning and stealth. the kunai in its current state however just goes against a core principle of how spy should work by making his means of escape all the more easier with the extra hp, and then invalidating the effort of a single enemy who had every right to kill you if it werent for that extra hp.
The problem with the Kunai isn't that you need to be good to counter it. It's that your ENTIRE TEAM needs to be good to counter ONE PERSON.
@@Sleepy_Cabbage I understand what you mean but I don't think the spy should be instantly dead if he gets caught off. Think we both just have different thoughts on the characters playstyle.
I was gonna write up another long paragraph about how the whole "spy should be just dead when he gets caught" mentality but I have seen people preach it so many times that I can't give time to argue against it anymore. The spies extra hp is earned and whenever I am fighting an overhealed spy I enjoy it because I am actually fighting another player instead of just one shotting them and getting a free point in the leaderboards
2:33 hey that guy has a cool hat
Kunai was the surfing knife before the chaining knife... don't quote my bias on that hehe. As far as reasonable balance changes, you could cap the health you can steal from a player to say, 125, and make the overheal drain slower to compensate. Essentially for each stab you get, you gain the life points of a whole spy 8)
The Kunai is like the Eyelander, it’s a pub stomper, but against competent players, you will die a lot.
The Kunai isn’t bad, it just uses the same role as the Eyelander, being better for casual and not against good and experienced players
Add a negative of "Can't be healed by medics" and I think it could work
Maybe no health pack healing either would be interesting too
Nah , not like medic ever do
@ammi5311 good medics try to overheal everyone close to them
@@Zhasper ok let me unfold here
Realistically , spy only probably gets a glimmer of overheal on respawn rolling forwards kindly ask and did get respond with crit heal .
That is if you're not playing an against odd team in a competitive match , or find even one medic in casual doesn't play for their personal friend pocket/best power class available .
Mechanically , clocking prevent medibeam connect to a spy to begins with .
On top of within the prototype vision building the game spy is expected to be sustained by consuming enemy resource , ammo / health pack or enemy medic (much as we know fooling a enemy with disguise in a none intense game especially without threatening teammate in the same casual game isn't as viable in 2024 , let alone pass enough to soak heals or Uber besides the rare high moments)
@@Zhasper that's a myth you're hypothesis against reality we all familiar with
So nice to finally see this video. I have genuinely considered learning to make videos just to get this across to people. Many of Spys biggest issues are multiplied by peoples insistence on picking the Kunai, when you can play a supportive and helpful role if you don't go all in on the trickstab 1v1 loadout and actually use your gun (something the Kunai punishes HEAVILY)
Buff/Tweak: keep overheal drain rate the same, but make being invisible slow the drain rate considerably. That way you can get a stab and have a reasonable amount of time to make a big play with the health boost
You know, this also makes the weeb kunai dead ringer spy loadout that everyone hates get essentially no buffs
0:32 I think FsoaS addressed the Kunai not being the best in comp (Specifically in Highlander).
Tbh weapons like the Kunai make me realize how I feel like there’s just a lot of weapons that frankly aren’t really able to be balanced well for all levels, I feel like one point you missed is how casual has 12 players which usually makes a difference. Though tbh outside of that pretty much all snowball weapons suffer from the issue of one bad player making the other opponent stronger. Outside of that I see the opposite case a lot as well, like the Quick-Fix being kind of underwhelming in casual and banned in comp, which makes me feel like some weapons should just be designed for one side because it’s nearly impossible to make them useful for both sides without making it a different weapon entirely.
using the in casual is like coin flip either you have fun with trickstabs or you get fucked by the enemy team
edit : using it in casual is like coin flip either you have fun with trickstabs or you get fucked by the enemy team
The kunai takes 36 seconds to drain from 210hp to 125hp. Over half a minute of being better off than you'd be with any other knife. It does NOT need to last any longer.
7:05 That backstab made me scream and shout and let it all out.
Rating a knife based off the competitive scene is irrelevant. Most people don't play competitive, the scene is barely alive to begin with so really all this video was made for was to be an ENTP devils advocate edgelord for 10 minutes
Isn't this a moot point since no one plays competitive?
"But lowering the Kunai's overheal would ruin it in casual!"
"Yes."
Should have ended right there. No need for further discussion. Please for the love of god ruin this knife in casual so Spy mains actually need to develop a personality and any sense of individuality instead of defaulting to the knife that has no downsides in casual play.
I think either balance change would work, my first suggestion just cuts it down in casual play too. I did wanna show both perspectives tho cause there are a lot of people (mostly spy mains) who don’t have a problem/like the current Kunai
delulu
I disagree
You see this is kind of like training wheels for everyone but that spy, it lowers their base health so that if you do find him he will die instantly but if you dont find him you will die instantly, it helps the enemy team train themselves to look for spies instead of not doing that.
always the most garbage players crying
12:24 I don't understand why people go melee as soon as they see a spy but I could assume it happens of the trickstabs being as dumb as in this clip. It's just not meant to be a backstab in these conditions
I don't think its possible to balance for both scenes. The kunai is already super strong in casual and shouldn't accept any buffs and if it does it could end up being banned for competitive anyways, spy already plays an important role (information gathering and single picks) and being able to face tank should be a part of it. If anything, it should be nerfed, fuck competitive
The weapon feels awful, it basically is "what if the same high risk high reward concept of the Big Earner, but instead of getting something that helps you do your job even better or get away, you become a shittier Demoknight"
Big Earner makes it so you can go for chain stabs, or get more lenient strafe stabs. Or you can get away and reposition, it's perfect. But the moment the Kunai gets a stab, you are incentivized to stay in the fight because of the health draining away. Only, you are now a decloaked spy in the middle of the enemy. You're not being sneaky, you're not looking for smart decloak spots anymore. You're running into the fray with 170 HP and spy speed because if you don't get another stab immediately you're pretty much guaranteed to die. It runs contradictory to the core gameplay loop of spy
this weapon basically exacerbates spy’s weakness of competent players. But rewards spy for playing against incompetent players.
i love the YER!!!
i don't think it sucks as I've definitely done well with it in HL in the past, but it's not the spy-cicle so in the bin it goes
I probably laid into it a bit much lmao, it’s not like unusable, I don’t like how overrated it is tho
i agree (this post was powered by Klown Town Hunters)
Love the video cyber. I think the main problem with the kunai in casual is not the max health but the gain with each stab, perhaps changing it to a 2:1 enemy health to health gained then changing the max health would be a good fix. Also sorry for being so weird last time we went against you, I was on new meds
3:18 Casual players be like: "OMG KUNAI SO BROKEN YOU CAN'T EVEN KILL SOY BEFORE HE DOES CHAINSTABS"
Heavy be like: *haha, now u die* 😊 *killa spy in a second*
It's WILD how people pretend Kunai is that strong
Hmm yes the class with 500~ sustained hitscan dps kills a spy fast.
Most classes don’t get that unfourtunately and since being in melee range of a spy is suicidal with most classes, you don’t get that full damage ramp up. So now your rtk increases by 1-2 with basically every class and if you’ve played spy or hell even a pick class being you’ll know given .5-1.5 seconds is pretty useful
I think the Kunai is the perfect example of "Everything is good against bad players". Like, yea, a spy can do a lot with it in casual because your team will feed them backs like no tomorrow. But even if your team is decent they will make that first stab not worth much.
The duality of Kunai in casual vs Comp is such an interesting case.
1:57
"even if the targets- ULTRAKILL"
one hit from a southern hospitality and a kunai is dead on the spot
Fun fact: the image you used of the kunai thats in the thumbnail and at 1:00 is the tetragon fortress image of the kunai.
I know it looks nicer tho teehee
real
TETRAGON GANG
dude aint no way you use 0:60 lol that's just 1:00
I LOVE MINEFORT
Im just watching this video now but I’ll hear you out cyber
I think that with this weapon you can see why the competitive format (mainly 6v6) and the casual format are incompatible, both would have to be extremely medicated to do it
Maybe a less evil version of the second change would be:
Overheal drain is reduced (or completely stopped) when Spy has 150hp or less
Yea, the Kunai is bad, “good” Spy mains can go cry
The only reason it is op in casual is because they have the watch that makes you invincible even though they have 70 health. There is no risk
Communication is def a big weakness to spy but when you can't talk with your teamates thats when spy in general shines
You're gonna get ripped to shreds, but I completely agree with you. Stock Knife for Life!
i'd rip out my liver. spit on it. throw it in the toilet. and feed it to the homeless man down the block only to erase the kunai from everyone's memory and in tf2 god this thing gets horded by spy mains and it's not even that good on experienced players
Kunai is just annoying, very annoying, specially when these guys pair it with the Deadringer. This is why I go Mad Milk Scout when theres more than one edgelord trickstabber on the enemy team, they instantly become free kills
9:40 THE POWERHOUSE STALEMATE WOOOOOOOOOOO
10:40 it doesn't fix infinite health with infinite chainstabs problem. Yeah having it take approx 1 second to fill would make spy being hard focused cause a lot of attention more fair.
no health drain but marked for death for the first second after switching to it
9:40 Just cause it's situational doesn't mean it's not broken thought either. The kunai follows the same issues as other snowballing weapons in tf2 the difference being the kunai is as you said more punishing. I'd say it's flawed design is similar to that of the baby's face and bazaar bargain. It's punished hard for situations out of the players control and very powerful for highly skilled players.
2:48 a good demo will sticky plus pipe you if he has the chance
"now you are becoming a spy main, you must choose: Kunai, YER or Big earner..."
"meh, I'll go with spycicle"
I predict this, when Spy Mains realise how good Big Earner is(or kunai gets nerfed by Valve...) you'll atart seeing Tf2ubers suddenly think "Omg, is Big Earner OP?!? WHY DO WE GIVE SPY SCOUT'S SPEED?!?!? THAT'S OP!1!1!1!1! 😱😱😱"
The best fix for weapons is just exclusive stats for competitive and exclusive stats for casual because no one gave a shlt about competitive competitive players shoul stick with their default weapons
game wasn't designed for comp.
@@Kalergi_Plan_Accelerationistwhat’s the difference between comp and casual? Is it trying two win? Is it rbs and crits disabled? Is it taking the game more seriously? Is it using communication? Is it discouraging stacking a class? Is it queueing as a party? All of these happen in casual or even casual community servers either explicitly or implicitly, so what’s the difference. Even when the competitive scene was much smaller items were still changed around people playing without stuff in casual, like the blutsager’s downside was no random crits until valve realized it was a straight upgrade in servers without it, so there’s at least some thought going intwo designing around a more competitive experience even very early on
11:12 we must always assume that a balance change is taking into account no random crits🙏🙏🙏
I thought a fun way to balance the Kunai would be to emphasize the Conniver in Conniver's Kunai by having you place a mark on an enemy that only you can see from any range via the Reload Key while holding it. At default you'd take half an enemy's health as overheal, but if you place a mark on them and wait, you can get up to 100% of their health as overheal. It's not like an idea I'm super proud of, but has been a fun thought experiment for me. Personally, if I was introducing the Kunai into TF2 back when it was first designed, I would've given it the ability to be throwable with a rope attached to it that can be used to climb walls and hit players from afar, but Valve had an idea for a theme gimmick where Japanese style melee weapons would give overheal, which is 2 weapons in total. Sadly, Scout doesn't get Nunchucks and Heavy doesn't get Sai's or Batons to encourage use of their Melee, and Soldiers just have better melee options than the Half-Zat. A struggle in balancing the Kunai is it's simplicity, and disrupting that simplicity could have major reactions from all kinds of people, which is probably why Valve didn't really touch the thing, and probably wouldn't want to even if they didn't develop an allergy to TF2.
If you were to do the "remove health drain" stat i would recommend simply making so cloak no longer gives damage resistance or reduces it after a successful stab. It will still remove status effects faster but this is mostly to combat that the biggest issue (atleast in casual) which is kunai + DR.
TL;DR You swap out damage resist for the extra health.
The problem with kunai is chainstabs leading to insane amounts of tanked damage, and it can easily be countered by giving the knife a timer before it can steal health. Like 4-5 seconds cooldown to steal health again is all this knife needs to be tolerable in casual. It also can be buffed by giving 230-240 max overheal to compensate for the nerf.
shoutout to the bomberman ds 2 music i wasnt expecting that
Kunai buff: Upon backstab, instantly cloaks you in a millisecond instead of a gradual fade + 1 granted insta uncloak for each kill (similar to diamondback or frontier justice revenge crits system). Side note: Feature not compatible with Dead Ringer.
the problem with the kunai i feel like isnt really the kunai itself, but really the lack of a proper mmr system in tf2. If tf2 matches queued equally skilled players with each other the kunai would be an acceptable sidegrade in casual
Bro cooked a good video :00000
Personally I’d just increase the push fource taken. It’s easier two disrupt by just blasting the spy around but at the same time a spy that knows two surf rockets and damage is crazy dangerous and fun, also probably making the overheal decay correctly over 15 seconds. Comp wise I’m not so sure when you got the big earner
this was a weirdly long, 13 minute way to say "hit your shots and dont hold w into a knife"
Weird thought, what about a total rework to the Kunai? Instead of gaining health on kill, you instantly activate your cloak with no fade-out?
It would go from the ultimate chain-stab knife to the ultimate getaway knife. Get a backstab and _poof_ you're gone.
For balance, I'd probably go with reducing the cloak recharge speed, rather than reducing cloak duration. Thus, you have the regular amount of time being invisible, but you need to spend it more wisely.
The concept could have interesting interactions with the Dead Ringer. You could make it fail to activate the DR if the watch isn't ready, _or_ be able to activate the Dead Ringer at any time, bypassing its restrictions. Both options could be balanced with some tweaks, I think, and both could be fun.
I’d love a knife like this I just think it might be better as a completely new weapon
i think that be way better then the kunai currently, plus it fits the theme of it being a ninja weapon, scilent but deadly
I remember playing on a custom weapon server with a knife just like that and it's very frustrating to play with. The Kunai is good at chainstabs, but it also doesn't prevent you from the option to escape. This hypothetical instant cloak knife will mess you up if you're in a good position to chainstab because you need to decloak before stabbing someone else. It's like accidentally running into a razorback in the middle of a chain. Your option to exploit a chainstab is severely discouraged, so now your playstyle is mostly limited to this one very specific stab and escape tactic.
I think make it that u got just 10 health,but u r invincible while cloaked and when u get a stab,U GET 1000 HP,but Ur cloak recharges 10% slower
counterpoint: this still gives a benefit, meanwhile the YER is invalidated by talking to each other. leaving you with shittier cloak for nothing.
"YER Spy me" and suddenly the weapons gimmick doesnt matter
9:54 WEAK OPINION, YOU GOTTA QUADRUPLE DOWN ON IT. GIVE IT -120 HEALTH ON WEARER AND NO OVERHEAL LIMIT.
YO, the beginning of the "Can We Fix It?" audio comes from only one side, also good vid.
With the kunai you can stab, cloak for resistance, and run away. Cloaking is itself possibly like you got another stab, because of the 20% resistance.
This vid has to be cia meme warfare cause of how bad of a opinion this is
love the kirby epic yarn music :)
good video
idk if i would say its spies worst weapon in comp, or that its bad in comp, but i agree with your ideas, and i really think the best change to the weapon, is just not changing it, people will complain about it in casual, but the same issues happen with top level players of any class
One thing that could be done is make it so the Deadringer removes all your overheal if you still have any when it activates. Kunai's strongest with the Deadringer because it removes the vulnerability of having 70hp.
Didn’t know you made videos I have scrimed your team before good video by the way
i need fishonastick to do an hour long react to this as he just gets a hear attack to this infomation
i prefer the first rebalance, the kunai is absolutely broken in casual due to the massively increased player numbers and skill gap of players, in fact i would even say scrap the minimum buff to encourage kunai spys to kill specifically high health targets as opposed to simply running into other peoples fire fights and gaining 55 health from a nearly dead enemy especially if the overheal drain is entirely removed.
1:00 oh god it really is a foo strategy. Welcome game sense the weapon.
I say let them have no overheal drain but make it so they have a cooldown on getting health on a stab to balance it out.
I think an even more evil change would be interesting. Like this : Keep everything but. *Remove max hp limit from backstabs but no overheal from medic* . What do you think? Its pretty much more risk more reward.
I thought of a Nerf that would totally trash The kunai: you cam't get kunai overheal If you already have kunai overheal
I think that balancing the Kunai like the Eyelander and Bazaar Bargain would be the best way to change it. Something like: Pros: +25 hp and max hp on kill up to 200. Cons: Default hp set at 75. Capping at 5 kills just like the Eyelander.
The Kunai sucks because spy as a class sucks in comp, it relies on deceit (lack of communication) and sound queues to not be notice by players for Spy to be effective, two things any good player (even in casual) actually has
To summarize : Kunai bad in competitive because when the enemy team doesnt have stupid people the spy can't farm stabs and be immortal like he usually is in casual with the kunai
I agree with most of the information presented in this video. Surf escapes are plausible with most knife health though. I see the point you were trying to say but I wouldn’t say it’s an amazing benefit. For knife heavy spies big earner is also just way better. Raw and you are right.
I love that Fish is just a community-wide meme for how much he hates certain weapons.
Honestly the best idea I've heard for a change to the kunai is just give it a downside that doesn't interact with the health steal like idk make it so you take longer to cloak and decloak (don't take that stat seriously it's just what I thought up first) it's the same problem with the eyelander it's downside is completely negated after a certain point (although I do concede that the kunais benefits aren't permanent)
yes, but this paper in here says you're wrong so...
jk, it's always nice to see a spy analysis (even tho I don't even touch spy and main pyro) and one focused on the sub niche of competitive, where spy is even less played than my total playtime with the class.
2:05 this shit is why i now run smg LMAO
I really dont mind the kunai in casual, and my main reason is that if a spy heals off my team, thats my teams fault, that spy cant kill me unless im bad and let them trickstab me, which is my fault. Kunai is only a issue for people who arent aware (which is spys main target lol)
then how do you get frag videos then?
This is how I think of it
Guy: the kunai is so good it gives you health on backstab
Me: but remember, you have to actually stab them
I've been playing spy since 2015 or 2016 (I joined 2015), I've mainly used stock my entire team fortress 2 career, with an occasional Yer mixed in from time to time. Once Jungle inferno released changing the stats on the Yer, I started using it more. I completely agree that the Yer is NOT A BAD WEAPON. It's pretty good but what I don't like is the -33% drainrate. To use that knife it need the le'tranger. That's my biggest beef with it, any other revolver is just not good with the yer.
I started to branch out last year on using the big earner and the kunai, I didn't like either knife. That reduce max health is very punishing for both of these knives. Epsecially the Kunai, when I started to try it, I got the exact same mindset that you spoke in this video.
The only upside to this knife is the constant health on kill. 210 health is not very much and with the health drain rate, you'll be at 200 or below 185 soon enough. Here's the thing. Scouts will still two shot you if they are up close, soldiers will have an easier time two shotin' you because the max rampu up can go above 105 from ranges where the soilder may not take any damage, and even (this goes for scout too) the drainrate will make you two shottable within a few seconds to go below 105.
Demoman will most of the time (if using pipes) will two shot you; because 10 health on a drain rate is not that long. A heavy still mows down a solider at point blank range in under a second, the time it will take to kill a full health overhead junai spy will only be barley any longer.
Sniper won't be able to quick scope you, but if he sees you, he can just charge up a shot to 200-210 or even less, because in reality as you said, the kunai is still loud. People will just instantly shoot you taking your overhead away unless you're getting stab after stab.
These are my problems with the kunai. My brain is a bit autisitic, I do not understand trcikstabs very well for all the years I've played. I understand be on their back and click m1. Which has been the way I play spy, I have accidentally gotten trickstabs but not on purpose. Unless someone is a God at abusing the melee hit reg and hitboxes, this knife is not good.
As state at the top, the only way that knife will be good, is if you can constantly get stabs to heal yourself.