Why Christian
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ม.ค. 2025
- I’ve done a few videos on aspects of our #Catholic culture, with a focus on #liturgy and music, in the past and it’s given me the opportunity to encounter some feedback and rebuttals from commenters as well as people I know personally, so I wanted to make another video addressing some of those sentiments.
One argument I’ve seen out there and have had addressed to me is that the Church has a rich history of recognizing what is good in the culture around it and adopting those things into it. So this is why it’s perfectly fine for us to take elements of pop culture and integrate them into our worship.
And this is true the #Church has drawn from cultural influences in the past and many of the things that are associated with traditional Catholicism were not familiar to the early Church.
One example is ancestor worship in pagan culture. We recognized a need to look to our ancestors, especially those who were virtuous and left behind a deposit of prosperity and knowledge. So we used the communion of saints as a way to communicate what those pagan cultures were trying to grasp.
But notice that that is an example of taking something and elevating it so that it is more true and good, not less.
But what we have today, in your average Catholic parish, isn't a case in which we're taking something good in our culture and elevating it to become something more good, true, or beautiful, but rather we're reproducing it in ways that actually reduce it's appeal.
More than that, the popular music of today finds its appeal though novelty and fashion. It's the offspring of an art establishment that is based on the philosophy of modernism which is where we get ideas like, “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. In other words, your subjective taste defines what is beautiful. This idea is utterly incompatible with Christianity which has always taught that God is beauty and, therefore, is objective. It exists outside and apart from your particular preferences.
And this brings me to another really popular argument that is out there. It’s a plea to a relativistic idea that we should each seek what happens to appeal to us. If I like chant, I should go to a Latin mass, if you like folk, you should go to a Novus Ordo. If someone else likes third rate 80’s rock ballads, they should go to a youth mass.
OK, let’s say, for the sake of argument, that there’s nothing fundamentally wrong with this line of reasoning. Is the Church not universal? What’s the likelihood that the parish in my neighborhood, which is where I’m supposed to go, is going to succeed in this method in appealing to my particular tastes?
And if it doesn’t, does that mean that I’m just out of luck. Too bad for me, I guess I have to drive halfway across the city to find something I like. What’s the likelihood that any of these attempts are going to actually appeal to our youth? Are we actually so naïve that we think that we will succeed in appealing to their tastes in popular music? And if the unlikely event that we do succeed in that occurs, will there be anything recognizably Christian left in it?
If the Church is universal and a place that should welcome all, shouldn’t we be trying to avoid a presentation of the faith that only appeals to one cultural persuasion. Because we have to choose something at the end of the day. That’s why sacred music is such a good fit. It transcends fashions and preferences. It avoids all fashions and, thereby, has an appeal that is universal.
Here’s the thing, liturgy isn’t entertainment. Your religion doesn’t exist to amuse you. Your religion is an emersion into the death and resurrection of the second person of the divine trinity which was necessary for the expiation of human evil. How do you look at that and say, well, as long as they’re playing my kind of music.
People who advocate for traditional liturgy aren’t doing it because it best reflects their taste in music. They’re doing it because they recognize that God is Beauty, as has always been taught, and since he is, that means that beauty is objective. Beauty exists outside and apart from yours or my subjective taste. Our taste is irrelevant. Instead of trying to enforce our preferences onto everyone else, we should be trying to allow ourselves and our tastes to be transformed so that they better correspond to the objective reality of God’s beauty.
I didn't become Catholic because it was the most appealing to me. I became Catholic because it's true. Likewise, I'm not trying to find a liturgical environment that suits my taste.
I'm trying to find one that best reflects the objective reality of God's beauty. My money's on the one that first understood that it is objective and second held captive the spiritual imagination of countless generations of Christians for centuries.
Twitter: / briankeepsworth
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"Can't you see you aren't making Christianity better, you're just making rock and roll worse?" - Hank Hill
If by "you," you mean the modernists, I agree. Do identify your pronoun, please.
@@SuperIliad it's a meme m8
@Ian What is this in reference to?
@@SuperIliad King of the Hill
@@alfredolozano7486 Now I see. Good.
Thank you so much for your wisdom Brian. As a priest, it warms and edifies my heart to hear young people, like yourself, speak on the beauty and the wisdom of the Sacred Liturgy. May God continue to sustain you and to speak through you!
I agree Father, are you a Roman Catholic Priest?
@@UnlikelyLDS Yes sir!
Awesome! I'm actually planning on entering the FSSP seminary in Denton Nebraska, Our Lady of Guadalupe.
Agree😊
Agreed here, Father!
"Liturgy isn’t entertainment." BOOM!
Brian sets us up for Dietrich von Hildebrand's proposal: “[T]he Face of Christ is revealed in the Liturgy: *The Liturgy is Christ praying.* To learn the fundamental dispositions embodied in the Liturgy means to penetrate more deeply into the great mystery of the adoration of God, which is Jesus Christ (Liturgy and Personality. Hildebrand Press, 2016, p. 5, emphasis added).
BP26P who is claiming that liturgy is entertainment? Stop mischaracterizing! People like you are causing divisions the church among those who are seeking root causes of the overall lack of faith in the western culture, the falling away from the faith as prophesied by St. Paul in his letters. Even if we ONLY had the Latin mass or the Tridentine mass, this falling away would still happen. It’s time to trust in the Lord and seek His face, pray pray pray for the whole world, Pray for mercy as our Lord and our Lady is asking us to do. Stop attacking the mass.
@@bpcathcrusader4952, to assert that the Liturgy is not entertainment but Christ praying is not to attack the Mass.
I've started liking your videos before finishing them. I have not regretted this.
Me too😄
Low church evangelical here. I could not agree more with you regarding variety show religiosity. Love your channel.
Cannot enjoy this one enough. Thank you for putting into words what many of us struggle to say or even know how to formulate. Well done.
"Liturgy is not entertainment. Your religion does not exist to amuse you."
This is something that I wish I could work up the courage to say to my family members who attend non-denominational churches. We need to go back to the roots of Christianity, not chase passing trends.
Great video. I too became a Catholic because I think it’s true! Keep up the good work.
I have always been saying this and I know it in my heart it's true. I am a cradle Catholic and I always will be! Thannks!
A comment I saw on Facebook about how liturgy is not entertainment.
" We went to a different NO parish for Mass today. Average age 80. Wonderful warm welcoming people and genuine holiness of heart, despite "Shine Jesus Shine!" and clapping.
I was pounced on directly after mass by 2 different well meaning people insisting that my children (12, 9, 5) would love to go to the children's liturgy to do colouring sheets based on the Gospel ect. I told both of them that i prefer to keep the children in the main body of the church so they can learn. The people were not having any of it and could not understand why i would not take advantage of the resource they have obviously carefully planned.
The truth is that my kids are too old to do colouring in a seperate room. I take them to mass to go to mass! Not to go to todlers playgroup!
Another old lady told me she was greatly moved by the fact that my children genuflect before receiving communion. I quietly told my son "See, actions are evangelistic and important."
Another lady was totally bemused by the fact that we enjoy the Latin Mass and the nuns chanting as our regular parish.
On leaving, one well meaning man basically begged us to return next week. "We need children! Come back - it's fun here! " he said in desperation. It was sad. I didn't have the heart to tell him that we go to mass to worship God, not to have "fun" as such. "
no wonder that church is falling
The parish in my neighborhood does the clapping thing (Soon and Very Soon we are going to see the king) and the children’s liturgy. As much as they try to help, I don’t see it as any different than the Baptist Church I went to as a kid that sent me off to a Junior Service to sing silly songs about God and the disciples until I was old enough to be baptized and be a member. Maybe the criticism leveled at the sentiment on NO mass being Protestant is valid if I can see similarities between them and my childhood.
Young people around my age (30-something singles) don’t go to church as much because it is such a subjective thing or conscience driven reality. My mom even says that taking communion in a Protestant Church is only about clearing your conscience and doesn’t mention anything about confession before a priest. Some churches have even gone so far to say that you should confess everything, and I adamantly oppose that logic because it might be none of my business to expose something that isn’t mine. Old people and young alike who look at new youth who come into the church with such wonder like it’s a delicacy probably have that mentality that says, “Hey! We have a new member in our army fighting for the Lord’s kingdom on earth. Take that, Satan!” Never mind it is completely false to assume such pretension on people, Carl Jung made a similar observation about people who formed in mass groups in the 20th Century that caused huge amounts of destruction and devastation en masse. Those groups (nazis and communists) are shunned in particular societies on left or right because ideologies are dangerous.
I see well meaning Catholics pushing single issues like pro-life as a matter of negating all other possible affiliation with a group. One issue isn’t going to be the lynch pin that holds anything if you don’t ask any other questions about your new friends.
Sona Mihai
If there is one thing that I hate at mass, that would be clapping... The worst is that they always want the young ones to do so and I'm always thinking "you'll have to kill me and force my two arms to do the motion, before I'll start clapping at mass !"
The first Roman Catholic Mass I attended shocked me. I knew I had stepped into what the book of Revelation called the Supper of the Lamb. I had not planned to become Catholic but was so drawn to it. The Mass drew me into that place where heaven and earth meet
Many western Christians need to hear this. I was raised in a Western Evangelical tradition. While I am grateful to my past, I am so thankful Christ led me to the Eastern Orthodox Church where I participate in St. John Chrysostom’s Divine Liturgy every Sunday. You have a compelling channel and I hope many hear the words you share.
Brilliant!!! 10,000 thumb up.
Thank you so much! I've been digging more and more about the beauty in the Catholic architecture, sacred music, and liturgy, and I don't want to stop because beauty helps me to be more concentrated, to make a better pray and contemplate God's creation. As a Catholics, we have a lot of wealth.
Does God care how we worship Him was a video you did which I loved and this one is all the more excellent! Once again, you did it. Now I have someone who thinks objectively on such issues.
Excellent as always, Brian. Thank you for what you do.
Brian you nailed it!👍
As a Serbian Orthodox Christian, Liturgy is everything. It is powerful, moving, peaceful and a walk with Christ. It’s a Liturgy that hasn’t changed in over 2,000 years. I also noticed you have an icon on your bookshelf? I didn’t realize Catholics had icons? Glad I found your channel.
Your videos are truly inspiring to me! Thank you!
I love listening to you! So glad I found you. There's nothing out there like this.
Congrats! Keep strong and Keep going, have may families' prayers!
I always love your content and your opinion.thank you very much for sharing your faith and knowledge,the beauty of our faith and history
"Liking" is surely not enough to adequately express my appreciation for your videos, especially for that one. I've watched you for over a year now, I often come back to see some of your older videos, and I really think your channel fills the missing gap on catholic side of youtube. You're seriously doing a great job, thank you for that! Greetings from Poland!
Another timely and most excellent commentary, Brian. I recently attended my first Tridentine Mass. I believe God chose the way he wanted to be worshipped and yes, it’s meant to be universal. Well done.
You're spot-on, as usual. The more the liturgy becomes like pop-culture and the modern world, the less it stands out from the world and the less compelling it becomes! I'm a Protestant still working on coming in, but I can tell you that the older style music as seen in Latin Mass and Paul Jernberg's work speak to my heart in ways that very few modern works do. That music tells me the Catholic Church is like no other church or organization, and I'm DRAWN to it! The Church needs to get back to that!
You put a voice to my thoughts. Thank you.
Thank you also for the detailed description provided ... reading that (along with the title) convinced me to watch/listen to the whole video.
Dominus tecum Brian!
Thank you Brian. Your succinct arguments, comments, and history are encouraging and useful in addressing the primacy and importance of Sacred Music, especially Chant
Years ago, I watched a video on YT by the Venerable Fulton J Sheen. He spoke of drums, etc disturbing the link between the choir on earth and that of the angelic choir in heaven. I have yet to find it again.
www.ccwatershed.org/blog/2017/may/18/fulton-j-sheen-nuns-pants-distribute-communion/
"Sacred music is not there for subjective tastes... it is there for, 'universal'" ...beautifully said, my man.
In the Eastern Orthodox view (and maybe Eastern Catholic...not sure), by praying the liturgy and offering the unbloody sacrifice, we are literally joining in with the eternal liturgy happening at the throne of God. The whole point of Jewish and now Christian worship is to mimic what is going on in Heaven! It has nothing to do with us, and everything to do with the pattern of worship God revealed to us. Thanks for the great video Brian. I do enjoy the way you speak from your heart, and yet at the same time, avoid making it about yourself.
The conversation we could have on this! Wow! It's nice to know someone else is asking questions, especially about the objectivity of Christianity in a world where individualism and subjectivity reigns.
Fascinating. I subscribed and look forward to viewing more videos.
Subscribed. Another great voice in my Catholic life. God bless, Brian.
IF each generation tweaks the liturgy and therefore the message, it will be like the "Telephone game". The original teaching will have morphed into something entirely different. Thank GOD, literally, thank Him for Tradition.
If we were going to go with the subjective beauty argument, why is the Divine Liturgy only filled with 60s music that only the grey hairs seem to enjoy?
It’s hard to think about how many souls this subjectively “good” music has helped push away from the Church.
I’d give a lot to get true beautiful music back to the Divine Liturgy. Our Lord would appreciate the the reverence, and the youth would see it as the only place they’ve witnessed beauty in this noisy world.
God Bless!
The second of your videos I've watched this evening. I love how you have a deep understanding of what religion is and how it works, which most people who are tinkering with the operation of churches do not have.
In the case of the Catholic Church specifically, I suppose that half the people in the pews don't really believe the contents of the Creed. They recite it because "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". (I couldn't do it any more, but that's just me.) Their sense of the connection to the divine comes through the beauty and symbolism of the liturgy and in most churches, the physical premises.
Protestants see the gold and bitch "think how many poor people could have been fed if that were sold." That line is one found in the bible itself, when Peter complains about the perfume "wasted" on Jesus. He didn't give a damn about using money to feed the poor, he was just jealous. Jesus replied "The poor you always have with you". Precisely. If you sell off the things that make the church a thing of beauty, you feed people for a little while (if the money isn't just pocketed for more selfish reasons). And now the place where they go once a week to escape the cares of the world to experience the divine has been degraded, the people have been robbed of the nonmaterial that gives meaning to the material.
I'm your fan from Philippines
Excellent! Thank you for your work Brian!
So true! I'm Colombian, Mass here, in it's attempt to reach young people, has become a 'kinder course' and I find no reason why would a kid want to keep going after he be 7. Many parishes use Salsa for the music, just when we are going to receive the Holy Communion, there is Salsa, and many people (no youth, of course) actually dance it while making the queue! It's a mess.
Once again Brian, you are spot on. The assimilation of culture by the Church is predicated upon the value of that culture as it relates to Christianity, i.e. will the assimilation of a culture bring us closer to Christ or will it lead us away from Christ. I think a strong case could be made that the assimilation of modern culture has led us away from Christ, i.e. truth and beauty.
I am so glad I subscribed. Thank you for the depth of your thinking.
Fully agree. Excellent analysis!
I love it when I hear the truth spoken!
Man! Your videos are brilliant, and this one is just great!
This video is educational. Thanks.
I remember an episode of King of the Hill where they had a prottie guitar religious service and Hank said “This does not make Christianity better it makes rock music worse”.
I go for the sacraments and focus on that. Sometimes the music is great and elevates my mind towards the readings and liturgy. Other times they play protestant music and it makes me cringe. These are songs that outside of mass I would listen to but when Chris Redman wrote 10,000 reasons I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking of the holy Eucharist.
You hit that one out of the park Brian! ...Kudo's
Man, do I agree with you. Same thing, I came back to the Faith after going secular because I believed it true, no because it was what I liked. The way you reasoned it, resonated so much with me. 👍🏼👌🏼
In my parish, our choir has been incorporating popular music styles (Christian pop, etc) into the Mass, and I can say from experience as a young person, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY love the older style of music way better (the songs we all know)
As a young person, I want to say DONT TRY AND APPEAL TO THE YOUNGER GENERATION WITH THEIR "KIND" OF MUSIC. LET THEM FALL IN LOVE WITH THE CHANTS AND THE OLDER MUSIC, OR ELSE THE MUSIC IS JUST GONNA BE "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus" and that's it!!! It almost seems like the Protestant type music is creeping into the Catholic Masses...
I totally agree that music isnt what we should focus on. And what the true goal is of our belief in our Heaven father. I'm not catholic but... you gave me some insight on your belief so thank you for that as well.
I am a Ukrainian Catholic, and Brian Holdsworth, if you haven't yet been to a Catholic Eastern liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or St. Basil the Great, you will love it when you do!
Also, Dr. Ryan Topping was my professor. He's awesome.
Doctorwho798 Dr. Topping was my professor too! Smart man
I have struggled with this since I discovered my faith 5 years ago. As a child the only time we attended church was for sacraments, after my first communion we never returned. My whole life I felt the nudging of the Holy Spirt and through much prayer I discovered my beautiful faith. When I studied the faith, Holy Scriptures and the Saints I would go to Mass and see something totally different. I couldn’t understand why we were not kneeling if this was truly Jesus. Why weren’t women wearing veils if the church and the Bible called for it? Why were there not long confession lines . Don’t even get me started on the liturgical abuses, hideous music, talking, inappropriate clothing attire, dropping the Precious Host etc. I struggled and struggled because so many said it was me, I was the problem, that I was projecting ideologies that were not right. That the church was full of sinners and would never look perfect. So I would fight back these feelings of confusion and anger. Now, 5 years later I attend a Latin Mass. And you know what? It is perfect. It elevates my soul to a level I never imagined. Is the priest perfect? NO! But it doesn’t matter, his behavior quirks, the parishioners cannot affect the beauty of the Latin Mass. And to me that is universal. I feel allowing people’s passing preferences and culture norms to dictate the Mass no longer makes it a Christ centered liturgy. You are making the Mass about you and what you like, not what is. I have attended every parish in my town, I know without a doubt, the people who are changing the music and adding and subtracting from the Mass truly do not have a clue what the purpose of the liturgy is to begin with. And the only person who can change that is our shepherds.
This is one of your best videos yet.
Yes!!! Preach it brother.
When you attend a Divine Liturgy for the first time, don’t go with any expectations. That’s what I have done when I attended my first Divine Liturgy in a Greek Orthodox Church. It has wounded my soul. I was not prepared to experience God’s glory like that.
Brian you are very articulate, I was brought up Christian, but I admit I was never the best Christian. I am 23 now and I am starting to go to Church. I will also read the bible in its entirety. I love your thoughts and opinions.
I’ve really been enjoying your videos recently. Most Catholics I met growing up were never devout so it’s nice to listen to you and hear what you have to say and feel like I’m getting a truly Catholic perspective. I was wondering though if you’ve ever interacted with the Reformed Church as in those who hold to the 3 Forms of Unity or the Westminster Confession of Faith. Many Reformed Christians also share appreciation for liturgy and keeping worship and entertainment separate. After leaving the broadly Evangelical world, becoming convinced of Reformed Theology, and going to a Reformed Church I’ve really enjoyed the corporate aspect of worship and the dialogical liturgy they use.
Exactly. This is why Clamavi De Profundis is so popular with the Lord of the Rings fans. They elevate the psalms above and beyond what other artists are doing, creating something really spectacular!
Brilliant!! Thank you for this, Brian 👍👍👍👍
When the "worship team" does a modern arrangement of an ancient hymn, I am drawn in. Conversely when the song selection mimics Christian pop radio, it can't end soon enough.
Did my Canon watch this this morning and based his sermon this afternoon on this? Whoa!
Coincidence? I think not.
🤯🤯🤯 i loved every minute of this.
I couldn’t agree more. The Mass is an experience of heaven and earth meeting in a mystical way, and all our senses can lead us to knowing this reality more deeply. Please respond to the counter argument that the music and art forms which we identify as traditional now were the current, popular forms of them at the time they were created.
Enjoyed this video very much. I, too, prefer liturgical traditions.
One thing bothers me: it seems that contemporary music forms /should/ be salvageable, if not for use in liturgy, then at least for lay or private worship. For some reason this seems very difficult to do, and I'm not sure why.
I've long desired to find ways that electronic music can be elevated to the beatific.
Just saw this video. So good and informative. I would say that culture now is so about relativism especially in regards to Millennials, in business and Religion. Some of my family are Lutheran, they are disappointed in how their Church is so focused on the younger generation and adding/changing services to appeal to more of the 20 and 30 even 40 somethings. Luckily I don't see this at my Parish...
Thank you Brian. Would love to see some videos on how to effectively respond to my agnostic Mom. She brought me up Catholic, she was never into much and is now involved in a Democratic party group who are anti Christian..(not making this political) she is so influenced by them. Thanks again.
I agree with most of what you said here, however, it's worth noting that the Russian emissaries were also impressed by the wealth of the Byzantine empire. They also checked out Rome and the Middle east, because they were considering choosing between Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Judaism, and Islam.
Well said. The Church, should present herself as she is and not try to appeal to what some within the Church might think certain people might want.
Great teaching- Beauty is objective!
A great discussion, once again!
brian i am an exmuslim , now a christian ,read the new testament , but still how can i become a catholic ?
Welcome to the family. You can find all resources and guidance through this website: www.cominghomenetwork.com. You can reach out to them as well for guidance
Some other great resources for learning about Catholicism are *The Coming Home Network International* www.chnetwork.org - The Coming Home Network also has a TH-cam channel, so look them up & subscribe!
*Relevant Radio* www.relevantradio.org - Relevant Radio has a variety of shows covering topics from a Catholic perspective.
*"Called to Communion" with Dr. David Anders,* & *"Open Line,"* and *"Catholic Answers Live"* are great call-in radio shows which you can call about any questions concerning Catholicism. They all air on EWTN radio www.ewtn.com and can also be found on TH-cam.
May God continue to bless you & guide you on your journey of faith!
Go to "ecclesiadei .org/masses" and find the nearest Latin Mass parish and speak with the priest.
God be with you! There is a party in heaven for your Conversion, be welcome, my brother!
Any of the parishes should have RCIA/ RCIY programme, you can enquire abt it in the parish church.
I agree except on one point. Coming from a contemporary evangelical background, I think there is a strong chance of appealing to youth via modern music and atmospheres. The problem is that, IMO, the more you conform the sacred to the world, the more it just looks like the world. You'll attract people alright, modern mega churches being exhibit A. But the spiritual quality of experience is often greatly diminished. That said, I think there is another side to this coin. Even traditional ways can become stuffy and devoid of life. It depends greatly on the condition of the heart and its approach to worship. Having come from a contemporary church background, I now have a much deeper respect for the traditional, liturgical ways.
Sr you absolutely nail it with this video, is so good that I think it should be translated into Spanish
Well done. I believe the Catholic Church began to reflect the culture rather than transcend it in the 60's. We have an uphill battle especially given the smoke of Satan is thick within the bride of Christ. God bless you and pray for your success with the millennial.
In light of the topic, what can be said of this example if used in the Mass (Communion, Recessional, ..)? I I deliberately picked this version over his commercial version. Your comments might help me understand Brian's point. Thanks a lot for anyone who'd comment.
thanks Brian. you could give a look at Nikolaus Gihr's "The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass" as well. Stunning work.
Thank you. I like what you said.
Agree with what you’re saying, but where I am, when I try telling that message to those around me, they give me loads of strange looks. Those who want tradition and chant have to go downtown for the EF mass.
It's always downtown too.
In my archdiocese, it's either in the metropolitan area or up in the boonies. Or across the border (requiring a passport).
I'm going near downtown, to the 1st or 2nd oldest parish in my diocese. It's 15 or 20 miles away - but its Masses are so much better than the Masses at the parish that's 1 mile away. I miss my buddies at the 1-mile-away parish, but shouldn't the reverentiality of the Mass come before everything else?
When Brian speaks, Tradition is clearly in the background.. When I heard he saying “... go to the Novus Ordo...”, then I said, that’s it.
Thank you so much for this video. I am becoming Catholic for the same reasons....because I believe it is true. I had been given the most incredible opportunity to attend the traditional Latin mass in Toronto and when I attended my local parish, novus ordo, I was stunned. My heart hurt. I don’t want to be critical, and I feel guilty seeking mass at a more distant parish, but the novus ordo is so unfamiliar; even to someone from a non-denominational evangelical background. Is it wrong to seek a different mass?
Very well said, sir. Thank you.
Don't know why the Novus Or do can't be the Extraordinary Form with a few subtle modifications like:
1. Modern English but metered to the chants
2. Proper vesting for all actors including Lay Ministers
3. Proper dressing for Parishioners
4. Hymns
I have always found RCC NO Masses as poor imitations of the Anglican Communion Service without due reverence.
As an Anglican I now understand why. Sadly you guys did not get a Cranmer who understood the difference between relevance and iconoclasm
Very true. I would presume on a practical side note, that not only did Russia become Christian because of the objective beauty of the Mass compared to the bland service of the mosque, but also because to ask Russians to give up alcohol for their entire earthly life is not something that the people would go for lol (Islam prohibits alcohol until their version of heaven).
@Keith Mayhew Hammond
The Russian envoys rejected the Western Church too.
Maybe because alcohol wasn't the issue, regardless of the stereotypes of today.
@@mariusfilip1847 Stereotypes exist for a reason and are usually based on some truth. My comment was more of a joke. I clearly do not believe that the Russians accepted the Christian faith just so that they could keep drinking, otherwise they would have remained pagan. I am simply saying that an extra reason to reject Islam is that it is difficult to prohibit alcohol completely from society.
As for the schism, I believe that to be a separate topic entirely. However, I will indulge you a little. First off, the acceptance of a particular liturgical style such as Eastern is not a rejection of the Western liturgy - it is rather choosing which liturgy perhaps best suits ones people. Considering that Russia is in the East, it makes sense even on a practical level as to why they would have a preference for Eastern Liturgy. There are many Eastern Catholic Churches that are in full communion with Rome. And I am sure they do not see their liturgy as a rejection of another liturgy.
I personally love both the Eastern and Western liturgies in all of their valid forms. My reason for choosing the western one is because it has the least cultural barriers for me and because I don't think that I could live without Christmas carols and hymns - since that is such a huge part of how I grew up. I don't feel the need to insult another cultures liturgy though in order to validate my own. If Christ is in the Liturgy, than that in of itself is enough to validate it. I am aware also that there are even western orthodox Churches that use western liturgies as well. I hope and pray for the ending of this schism. When it ends, it is not as if the East will take up the Mass or that the West will take up the Divine Service. They will both worship in union with whichever form of valid worship that Christ gifted them. In a time as dark as this, it extremely saddens me to see this sort of petty resentments between Christian cultures when there are so many enemies at the gate.
This is tricky for me. None of the Catholic parishes in my vicinity resonate as beautiful or reverent, but there's an Orthodox church where I feel exactly like I'm in the foyer of heaven. This is how I hear some describing Catholicism and I wish that were true where I am. So I have to choose: go where there is reference and the holy spirit resonates with me, or go where it's supposed to be like that but isn't?
If I could like this video 100 times I would.
Dr. Topping was my freshman theology teacher at Walsh University before I converted to Catholicism! Hands down my favorite class from my four years in university.
Also, at the beginning of the video isn’t he referring to the Orthodox Divine Liturgy? Not mass.
It's not the Orthodox liturgy, it's the divine liturgy which the Orthodox use, but so do eastern rite Catholics. That anecdote comes from before the East West schism. :)
It’s the same
It’s the same sacrifice of the mass happening in Divine Liturgy, though practiced illicitly, it is valid and a true sacrifice.
You are are right. I should have chosen my words more precisely. However the east and west schism didn’t happen in one year it finally came to its conclusion in 1054.
On a side note, I’m about to read Two Paths by Michael Whelton. Former Catholic now Orthodox convert.
How can it be valid? If there is one church and line of apostolic succession agreeing that the Orthodox Church is valid couldn’t you just stretch it and go to say all churches are valid? Personally that doesn’t make sense to me.
Andrea Leon All Orthodox sacraments are valid, though illicit, because they are administering these sacraments outside the authority of the Church under the Pope. The Catholic Church has always said that the Orthodox sacraments and apostolic succession is valid. That’s the reason why an Eastern Orthodox member is allowed to take communion in a Catholic Mass, although his own Orthodox Church or priest may not allow it. (There are like 12 or so different Orthodox churches all with their own law, it’s weird...)
This understanding is also why the Church has never called the Orthodox heretics, but only schismatic, and even that is used sparingly nowadays. They do indeed share the True faith, although we do not share full communion with them.
I agree with you. I'm a very liberal Catholic, yes, we exist. But, liturgically, very conservative. I remember when the 'folk mass' began. At the moment, it was cool. It was around the time of the movie the Singing Nun (not many here will remember this, I suppose). But, at the time, it was interesting, and I was young. But, yet it persists. In my parish, we have a nice organ and a good organist. We often sing traditional hymns(no Gregorian Chant, sadly). But, it's ok. But, every now and then, when the organist is away, we have a folk mass. When I see the folk group and their guitars, I want to leave immediately. I suffer through the out of tune guitar and bad singing. But, why should I or anyone have to suffer at Mass? At these times, I feel like there is a lack of reverance, more happy clappy. If there was an Eastern Rite Church near me, I'd join.
I once again say that I think the primary problem with the typical Catholic parish is that the people who make the music for the Liturgy do not care enough to do what they're doing well. John Michael Talbot and the St Louis Jesuits can be sung well. There are harmony versions out there, and there is such a thing as professional guitar playing. If people actually tried to sing what they're singing with skill and with knowledge, they could and have made quite worshipful modern music.
"Your taste is irrelevant." ..."Liturgy isnt entertainment." - totally agree! Everytime a friend says they are going to this or that church because it's fun and engaging, I have to remind myself not to blurt out "but it's not about YOU!"
I would have to challenge you on the matter of modern music. I have found some modern Christian songs that are objectively beautiful, such as "In Christ Alone", anything from Kari Jobe and I cannot remember the names.
Now are you familiar with two talks on beauty by Bishop Barron and Peter Kreeft?
Aeternum Sophia Spiritual Direction
Agreed. The Holy Spirit is still inspiring great hymn writers today, as you mentioned.
I think you hit on it in one word "transcendent." The buildings and structures of the Church should be transcendent.
I would never want to go to Mass and hear heavy metal XD
1) I would be terrified even though I love the genre.
2) Like you said, because beauty is objective
3) Heavy metal typically isn't even considered SUBJECTIVELY beutiful lmao.
Looked like you were wearing a Roman collar for a second 😆
I love Matt Maher's music. I think he does a great job combining the scared with the contemporary. Jaci Velazquez is another great music artist whose worship songs are also great quality. She is protest but some of her songs have a strong Catholic vibe to them. Being that said, i want scared traditional music at the Holy mass and not modern music.
Interesting that Mr. Holdsworth would refer to the very reason why Kiev chose Constantinople over Rome.
Spot on. The Catholic Novus Ordo liturgy is tightly specified by the General Instruction for the Roman Missal and the music and texts are given in the Graduale Romanum. Unfortunately the Vatican 2 documents are worded in such an ambiguous way that in practice almost anything goes.
You will spend your lifetime arguing against bad liturgy, verging on liturgical abuse. Speaking from experience: fighting against the tide will wear you down in the end. Have another look at the Orthodox if you want to find peace of mind.
Serious question: What about Christians who do not enjoy organ music?
I've watched some of your videos on the liturgy and I think I understand what you are for and what you are against when I look at the context in which you are discussing these things based on the examples you use, but I wish you would explain your opinion at the other side of the coin. If subjective taste or attempts to be entertaining are informing or have informed liturgy to the point of watering down the worship, then where should some subjectivity be applied and what is the proper expression of diversity of faith as described in 1 Corinthians 12? Is a better expression of diversity of faith more to do with appealing to the strengths of the members of God's body (and what they can provide) instead of appealing to their weaknesses? Have you made a video on what a good diversity of faith in God's body looks like and where the confusion might be on this?
Re why liturgy matters: look up video by Jewish prof Dr Rachel Elior, who wrote the Dead Sea scrolls, talk at U of Chicago 1/15/14. In complex talk, she outlined priestly activity and liturgy meaning done in Holy Temple. Dr Elior explains liturgy is communication and in Union with angelic priests in heaven and on earth. The liturgy done by Catholic/orthodox of course continues the work of the Holy Temple, but with Jesus Christ.