Hey, that's me! I've been following your content for a little bit now, Brian. Thanks for your thoughtful insight, and thanks for the shoutout! If you ever want to have a chat on either of our channels, let me know. God bless!
.... as I was saying, a Mass in the extraordinary form in Cardiff, Wales. It takes us an hour or so to get there from England. It's a sung Mass in the Gregorian style, with an organist and choir of three. It fulfills all that you say worshipful music should be.
Wow, what a great experience. Such a shame you have the inconvenience of travelling all the time, however. Isn't there anywhere in England near to wear you live? The only extraordinary near to me - 40/45 MINS away - all are in low Mass. We need this movement to spread!
For many years I played guitar at Mass. I came to a parting of the ways with the powers that be and left. But after more than 25 years of playing at basically the same Mass, I didn't get a single note of praise or thanks from anyone. I didn't do music for praise. I did it to praise the Lord. Maybe the music was indeed more of a distraction rather than adding to the holiness of the occasion. I loved a lot of the music we played but I also noted that every few years a new group of people would look to other music and it became an endless cycle of trying to find the most recent music to attract young people. So as I reach my 70's, I find myself drawn to the traditional Latin Mass and it's music. I see the growth of the church coming from the more traditional value and liturgy that are in a sense timeless.
And that's exactly why I quit going to mass, because it's not Catholic it takes away from the entire liturgy and hand clapping and hoop'in and hollering isn't what I want to hear at the Catholic mass
I honestly think this is the most unique Catholic TH-cam channel I’ve ever seen. You take a very distinct perspective on things, a perspective that, to me, is very reminiscent of ancient Catholicism and how the Church Fathers thought. Your concepts of beauty, reason, and Christian teachings is refreshing. Godspeed!
As someone who plays drums every Sunday with a guitarist and pianist and singer, I can definitely feel that when we do a good job, the sacred element has been lost due to distractions.
Excellent Brian! I’ve been involved in contemporary music in church since 1968 where our school principal, a catholic nun, invited some of us to play guitar for masses. Our church also had high masses in which I sang in choir. Only in the past 10 years have I come to appreciate that music can and should be written specifically for the liturgy. There are some wonderful masses here in Rochester that have Hymnals of Gregorian chant, where the choir is not even visible.
I too use to play my violin with the cool guitar kids and drummer, even recently, I was asked to play for Holy Week. I did but it didn't feel right. I have since found a TLM in the area and will drive 1.5hrs to get there, with Gregorian Chant. Worth it!
I should say that I completely agree with you, in terms of taste. Gregorian chant is my preferred musical style of worship. It communicates the transcendent nature of the Mass in an incredibly humble and simple way. I took a class in undergrad on the history of Music in the Catholic Church, and this argument cannot be defended from the perspective of tradition. Polyphonic music had its origins in the secular world- and then Palestrina made it beautiful and transcendent enough for the Church to deem it acceptable. Operatic music had its origins in the secular world (and for the record, if you’ve ever seen/heard an opera- you know the content is as scandalous as what we hear today in modern rock or hip-hop). And yet, Schubert’s Ave Maria goes unquestioned- because it’s beautiful and transcendent. Perhaps a better argument should be this: if you can use the drums (not a drum set) and guitars prayerfully in a way that can communicate the transcendence of the Mass- rare but possible- then perhaps. If not, then put the instrument down.
The main problem is that the Church itself and it's bishops don't support the gregorian chant anymore. In my city there are 7 Catholic churches but neither of them has masses with latin chants. (I live in Central Europe)
I agree that all the arguing between traditional/contemporary factions distracts us from the grand duty of evangelizing. If you're saying that both sides are competing for their personal preferences when it comes to music for the liturgy, then I agree all the way with what you were saying at the beginning. From my experience, however, the traditional voices are the ones who argue in favor of gregorian chant and they express it as appropriate for the liturgy and not as their personal preferences, or at least that's how I've understood them.
Absolutely agree! My wife and I have been on this tumultuous journey through various denominations for many years (currently exploring Catholicism) - and music has always been a central issue because of the irreverence and profanity. I eventually reached a point, personally, where I believed that music should not be a part of church worship at all because of all this - and, to be clear, I hold a master's degree in music and am a professional musician and scholar, so that's kind of a crazy thing to believe! Great video and well=articulated arguments! :)
Thank you for this video! I have sang in choirs my whole life and been exposed to beautiful ancient sacred music and it always baffled me that many Catholic Churches did not embrace this incredible music.
The Church needs to harvest sacred musicians as ministers. There are too many musicians who perceive what they do at church as a “gig.” In scripture, the priests and the musicians of the temple are mentioned side by side. Being a true minister of music is a sacred calling - one’s life is devoted to developing it, growing in it and living it...
Ah, if only churches would follow your high ideals. Unfortunately, most singers and players employed by Catholic churches are well-meaning but low-skilled people. Add to that the impatience of most priests with anything that takes "too much time" or that takes attention away from themselves and you have a recipe for mediocrity.
Great video Brian. I only have to point that in actual fact the normative form of Mass in the West is the *Missa Solemnis* the solemn Mass, which has always been sung. Singing is essentially part of the rite. Gregorian chant is not an addendum to the liturgy; it *is* the liturgy, when sung. The low Mass (properly the *Missa Privata* ) only came to exist in the Medieval period, when in monasteries a flood of enthusiastic vocations led to lots of individual priests all celebrating Mass at once (concelebration having been largely phased out); thus a concession was made so that Mass might be merely said or recited rather than sung. All other non-chant music, is only ornamental, and strictly optional. It is why, for example, the organ is prohibited during Lent. Not belonging to liturgy as such, it may be dispensed with. It is notable that in the East, all the various rites are sung, even if only the priest is celebrating. Nor do they permit any instruments of any sort into their liturgies, having only the human voice resound to God's praises. I think this is the wiser course, personally. For a fantastic talk on the merits and history of Gregorian chant in particular, see this video: th-cam.com/video/-dO9i7UI2Kk/w-d-xo.html
A Russian Orthodox Church recently relocated near my home which has given me the opportunity to attend some of their services. It’s a very small parish, but the singing and chanting is beautiful. My Catholic Parish, which is 10 times larger, doesn’t come close even during the Latin Mass which is primarily the Low Mass.
@@flisom @Fred I'm glad you find the singing at the Orthodox Church beautiful, but you shouldn't be attending Orthodox services. They are schismatics, therefore their rites are illicit and as such sacrilegious. You should support your Catholic parish as much as possible, to try and help it grow and promote the TLM. Eventually with enough interest a regular High Mass could be celebrated there, which would be extraordinary. I'd recommend getting to a High Mass if you've never been. It's out of this world .
@@ClassicPhilosophyFTW What is sacrilegious about the Orthodox liturgy? It is exactly the same as the Greek Catholic liturgy used by, for example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church. It is a good thing to support a Catholic parish which promotes the TLM but they are few and far between and generally exist under the hostile eye of the other half of the parish, the bishop and the pope. Priests who celebrate the TLM get a hard time from their parishioners and the hierarchy. How long can that even continue?
@@ClassicPhilosophyFTW The Catholic Church is a Novus Ordo Church and I accept that fact. The Tridentine Mass is the exception and even where it is available, Catholics are unlikely to have the other six sacrements available in the Latin Tridentine Rite. In other words, our funeral Mass will likely be in the new rite. To make the situation even more tenuous, the Bishop can at any moment decided to move my priest and then even the Latin Mass will be gone. Anyone who has witnessed an Easter Orthodox Liturgy will recognized it. Many, may even feel sorrow for what the Catholic Church once had and then through on the trash heap of history. I know I do. As to the schism between the East and West, I leave that to God. What I do know is the rite you call illicit is more holy than any Novus Ordo Mass that I've attended. The people of the Church can judge me as they will, but I leave my final judgement to God.
"Therefore it is regrettable that the ROLE OF THE CHOIR is not yet understood in the Church. Many choirs perform in such a way as to attract attention on themselves, as if they were the centre of the celebration. The choir has a MINISTERIAL ROLE - the Church says - to play in the celebration of the Liturgy. Ministry means SERVICE Therefore the Choir is at the service of the Congregation, the people of God. Its purpose and task is to lead and help, to animate and support, to encourage the full participation of the congregation....The primary task of the choir is to lead, to guide, to ENABLE the whole assembly to celebrate and sing the praises of God. Let them not forget the verse of that Psalm: "Not to us, o Lord, not to us, but to your name give the glory!" This should be the MOTTO of every serious, mature, faith-full choir!....I want to denounce that kind of OBSESSION by the choirs to fill in every small space with "noise" (unwanted, unnecessary music), instead of giving a much needed break of silence." Fr Piero Lazzarini SX, 16 September 2016.
The need for sacredness is huge! The Catholic Church is and should be sacred but it isn't treated that way! How many masses have I attended that people come in to chat, to socialise, to exchange stories etc. The secular culture has no respect of sacred space and of the sacred. I agree with everything you have said. I just can't image how angry Christ is right now being muzzled, secular, hillsong music being played and those people who are still convinced that the Church needs to modernise... give me a break. We need sacred music and sacred spaces and you are right, it should be universal.
Many liturgical ministers and/or choir directors are paid to provide music. Gregorian chant is extremely beautiful and pulls one deeper into unitive contemplation of Christ’ sacrifice and the Mass. As a parent who lost a toddler, the band music is quite a distraction to my desired depth of plunging into the mystery of the Mass. Many directors do not know how to read chant. The “do” scale doesn’t even begin at middle c - at least the is what I think I learned at a class last night haha! There is much education needed to acquaint music directors with reading the ancient music. The next step is to create an opportunity for anyone who wants to learn chant to learn chant.
“Christianity will go,” Lennon said, “It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that; I'm right and I will be proved right.We're more popular than Jesus now. Went to Church and heard the choir sing John Lennon's "Imagine" I walked out"Imagine there's no heavenIt's easy if you tryNo hell below usAbove us, only sky""You may say I'm a dreamerBut I'm not the only oneI hope someday you'll join usAnd the world will be as one"
Now when we know about the importance of Gregorian Chants in the liturgy, how do we uproot the cultural and traditional rock/pop/folk music etc. which have so deeply been rooted inside the minds of the faithful and the congregations?
Thank you so much for this! By and large, it was excellent--and much needed today in the Latin Church, where Chant is treated either as an interesting, albeit exotic, blast from the past. When people hear the term "Gregorian Chant" today--and particularly, when they experience it at Masses or other Liturgies--it's often done poorly, without regard for the proper rules for performance, and in Latin, which makes it (within the context of a service that is otherwise offered in the vernacular) SO "rarefied" that it gives the clear impression that it is something reserved for special occasions only. My only problem with your presentation is the clear impression you give that Liturgy in the West can be considered properly served when simply "spoken", BUT that chant can be "added", particularly if or when the idea is to make the liturgical event even more special. That has never been the position of the Church. The Liturgical bottom line is that the Solemn celebration of the Liturgy, complete with a full use of all its "sensual" elements, is the norm. While a Mass not chanted, or without incense, or done in less than the finest vesture, etc.) may still be valid, the "optics" conveyed say that the mysteries celebrated at this kind of event are somehow less awesome than when done on Christmas or Pascha (Easter) or at the visit of the Bishop, when we "pull out all the stops". Unfortunately, this popular line of thought pervades the Liturgy not only with respect to chant, but as I have implied, across the board. "Low Mass", which was the regular experience of Catholics through to the mid-60s, no longer exists officially as a liturgical designation. Rather, the understanding which the Church officially promotes is that the Mass is always to be celebrated with greatest reverence (and solemnity) normally, but when this is seriously inconvenient, some things may be temporarily replaced or removed if necessary. The post-conciliar document Musicam Sacram offers some suggestions for how this can be done, while leaving the topic open for further exploration within certain perameters. In the 60s, the idea that the Liturgy must be "simplified" began to mean in the popular mind that it must be pruned of anything out of the ordinary experience of the average worshipper. Consequently churches were ransacked and pruned of whatever those "in charge" considered exotic or excessive. Statues and images were reduced or eliminated because popular thought was that they distracted from the reality the rites themselves were trying to re-present. The form the rites took were constantly "reconsidered" in an attempt to make them "relevant" or "meaningful", without any corresponding effort (by and large) to explain their meaning through incorporating an explanation of those rubrics, words or forms, in the homily. Worse, the idea that the Rites must be clear and self-explanatory became pervasive even to the simplest mind. As a result, the popular experience of Liturgy, especially at the Parish level, was trivialized and contrived, and worst, boring. The Norm for Liturgy is that the entire person is to be involved, which means that not only the mind, but the senses too, must be engaged. The Liturgy is that privileged place wherein man is taken up out of time and into eternity where he offers his praise before God Himself. Consequently, what is done liturgically must be so special that the average worshipper can feel "transported" beyond the realms of earth into the Divine Presence itself. That has traditionally been done in a number of ways, but the Chanting of Liturgical texts, from Scripture readings to the ordinary prayers, is primary. Your presentation really did a fine job explaining that. Today, chant is very poorly understood by the average person in the pew--and even the clergy that stand at the altar! It is considered monotonous and dull, and by the standards of contemporary hymnody it probably is. But the real problem isn't chant. It's understanding why music is so fundamental to worship that, without it, something is seriously "wrong". The reason we "sing" at Mass isn't to keep ourselves entertained, but to assist us in moving outside ourselves so that the words we pray can surround and wash over us, and ultimately "zone us out" of the here and now so that we can, more easily, enter into the "there and then" of God's eternity. Metric music, which we are surrounded by throughout the day, can't do that because it's intended (as you pointed out) to focus on a special idea or emotion which the composer thought very important. All those things, while perhaps very important in the day-to-day of our lives, can distract us from the very thing we are at the Liturgy to encounter. On the other hand, the "boring" sameness of chant and the quietness of the liturgical atmosphere can better enable us to be moved into the awesomeness of the God's presence, and dispose us to really "relate" to Him. Chant has traditionally been the liturgical vehicle for prayer in all major religions because it can do something nothing else can. In our Catholic culture today, however, it has been replaced, because its function has been misunderstood. The strange environment it provides has been re-considered and dubbed "spooky" because it is so foreign, and yet that is precisely why it so essential. It more easily than anything else renders us capable of coming to an awareness of entering into something totally different. Without that awareness, our worship is too easily focused on ourselves. I am a first-generation Irishman (both parents from Ireland), which means born and bred Roman Catholic. I entered the seminary in 1964, and so have an experience of not just contemporary Catholicism, but its earlier forms. The Latin Rite was pretty much all I really truly knew until very shortly before Ordination, when I encountered the Melkite Church. Within 2 years of becoming a priest, I was also granted bi-ritual faculties so that I could serve in the nearby Melkite Parish as an assistant, at which time I became acquainted not only with a much different form of Liturgical expression, but, more importantly, with an ability to become much more objective about Liturgy generally. As I considered my new Liturgical experience over and against that I'd grown up with, I began to see how much of what I'd come to accept in light of the popularly expressed changes since Vatican II (and their corresponding explanations and understanding) really "cheapened" worship and short-changed worshippers. Priests, particularly parish priests, need to be seriously exposed to the use of chant in the Liturgy, because it is priests who are often the biggest hinderance in its re-introduction and regular use. Just like everyone else, they have all sorts of wrong-headed impressions of it, and an overall fear, therefore, that if they were to feature it routinely in their parishes as a regular part of worship (and NOT just on Sunday, but daily as well!!!), their parishioners would flee. My own experience as a Pastor has shown me that quite the opposite is true. What's more, on the market today there are a number of "worship aids" which make the various liturgical texts highly accessible to ordinary folks, even to those who are "musically illiterate". Fr. Samuel Weber, OSB, for example, has produced an English version of the Roman Gradual (the proper Antiphons for Mass--i.e. Introit, Responsorial Psalm and Communion verse) as well as the Divine Office for use in a parish setting. In addition to the various works Fr. Weber, Adam Bartlett has produced a very fine volume entitled Simple English Propers. For me, who never really learned modern musical notation very well, the fact that these are written in Gregorian notation makes them even more valuable, especially since "reading" is so much easier for a music novice. I'm so sorry to have written such a long note, as I'm sure you're a busy guy. I hope that what I've written is clear and intelligible. If it isn't, please let me know and I'll try to fix it for you. I really enjoy your videos, and hope you keep them coming. FYI, my email address is: martingfarrell@yahoo.com. God bless! Fr. Martin Farrell, o.p.
This may have been a long note but it was worth it. I'm a lay person but many things tou memrion about how the senses are a key part of the process ring true for me. Thank you
You brought up a lot of excellent points which I'd never really thought about much, other than the fact that I personally dislike the modern approach to the Church's liturgical music. We could definitely use more Gregorian Chant to calm people down and put them in the proper mood for worship. Thank you for all your deep insights into Catholicism and the spiritual realm.
Brian you’re such a considerate and respectful faithful. And I completely agree with you. Sacredness where sacredness is called. I love Gregorian chants in mass: one of my favorite Pange Lingua Gloriosi. A time and place for everything. 🙏
I recently visited Tur Abdin, the Turkish Region in which there are still Syriac-Orthodox Christians, and got to talk with many Priests and monks there. Their liturgy is entirely sung in Syriac, a mostly dead language (someone can speak Syriac, a Few people speak Neoaramaic which is similar and the majority of them speaks turkish or arabic). How do they manage to preserve it? Instead of our sunday school, they teach to children every afternoon after secular school, in the weekends and in summer to read in Syriac the Scriptures, to chant the Liturgy of the Hour and the Mass and through the liturgical chant they convey the doctrine of the church. In this way, though besieged by a Muslim society, they managed to preserve their liturgical and thelogical Tradition (in the church the two are one: lex orandi lex credendi). Now, the Second Vatican Council received and accepted the call from the people of God to a greater participation in liturgy. However, they also called to a rediscovery of Gregorian Chant, the proper Form of latin church music. We should have applied a Model similar to that of the Syriac Orthodox, teaching Gregorian Chant and Latin to children, so that they could participate better in the Mass. An interesting side effect of the syriac orthodox method is that Christian children in Turkey study a lot more than their Muslim peers and they are used to attach great value to studying. They tend to know more languages and to be employed more in liberal professions (attorney, physician) or in money-lending and money-changing, because of their higher cultural Level.
Thank you for noting and expanding so clearly the odd uneasiness I've felt when the pop music invades the holy celebrations. (I love Gregorian chant, and especially enjoy singing Tallis as well.)
This is a very great video and needs to be shared. However, the only flaw in this video is that it fails to recognise the diversity inside the church itself; by that I mean the Eastern traditions. One way to address this would have been to say this video was exculsively about the liturgy of the Latin rite or you could have mentioned the common roots of Gregorian, Byzantine, Antiochene, Coptic, Aramaic and Syriac chant, by that I mean the chant in the Temple of Jerusalem. Anyway, its a great video!!!!!!!
Music is a big part of religion for so many people. In fact music may be as old as humanity itself. If you have ever been to a Welsh Church, or an Anglican Church, or a Uniting Church, or Jimmy Swaggart, or an African American Revivalist Church, music is a tool to connect people with Jesus and God. But the music must be written for the purpose.
As a minister of music and organist in a parish; I get this a lot… "But the people like it! It makes the "feel" good! It brings them closer to God!" People look to their emotions as a basis for constituting music as "good," not what is sanctifying their souls. The second half of this issue is the LACK of quality musicians within the church. Just because you have an "organist" who makes the organ sound like a carousel and has no formal training playing the organ does not make music sanctifying either. Sacred music must be selected, practiced, meditated upon, and executed well for it to be effective. The easy way out is to pick "whatever is easy, makes me feel good and familiar to the people," which is evident in 90% of Novus ordo parishes in the US. And while participation of the assembly is important, we cannot allow that compromise their exposure to good, quality music.
The thing I feel is overlooked here is that the Bible actually tells us how to worship musically, most notably in the book of Psalms. It tells of stringed instruments, flutes, drums and tambourines. Psalm 150 doesn't tell us to sing, but it does tell us to use a litany of musical instruments, including the precursors to guitars and drum sets
Just as a guitar can be used in profane ways, so can the human voice (profanity), and also the pipe organ (Fantom of the Opera). So just because an instrument, like the guitar, is used in profane ways does not mean it can't also be used in sacred music.
You've nailed it here. It's incredible that given V2 people don't even know what Gregorian Chant _is._ One of Olivier Messiaen's most beautiful compositions is an _a capella_ liturgical choral piece, _O Sacrum Convivium._ It was his singular contribution to the tradition. He wrote no more, because he knew plainchant was already the perfect music.
I agree with you 200%! But (please forgive my nitpicking - I'm not being purposefully critical) could you make another video about this subject that 1. doesn't go off on tangents, 2. doesn't ridicule those who disagree, 3. doesn't focus on your own experience, and 4. has more examples of beautiful music such as Paul Jernberg's? I LOVE your quotes from church documents, etc. but I want to share one of your excellent videos with people who might not agree, so we need to be careful not to talk down to them. Thanks for all you do and God bless.
I can see where you come from, and I agree - Gregorian chant should be the standard music for Mass. But people are Christian 24/7, not just on Sunday mornings, and music can and must be an integral part of a Christian life. Especially in countries where national identity and Catholicism are intimately intertwined. Here in Spain, this has been the case for millennia: Mozarabic chant, Renaissance polyphony, sacramental dramas, Christian flamenco, marching music for Holy Week processions, Christmas carols, hymns for the Marian devotions of every corner of our country... and Gregorian chant too, certainly. These styles are diverse in forms and usages, but they speak both to the heart of a nation and to the richess of a common Catholic heritage. Sure, you can argue that they should be sung outside of the Mass, e.g. Christmas carols were traditionally song when after Mignidht Mass, not inside the church. But the outburst of joy that the coming of Our Lord brings to people cannot just be exclusively reserved to a building, a schedule or a historic time. Especially when, for many Spaniards, our nationality and our faith are intimately intertwined, as acknowledged by all popes. Since this is the case in many other countries, it's and opportunity to share and learn from other Catholics all around the globe. Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that I understand your position, but I would have liked to hear that popular music has its appeal, whether in or outside mass.
I was born in 1971 and was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school until 4th grade. I was never taught Latin. I think I didn't even know the Latin mass existed until I reached high school when I dated a girl whose father insisted they attend the Latin mass.
"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, `God, have mercy on me, a sinner. ... "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Just remember that music is NOT an essential part of Mass. It just help to smoothly connect all the parts, so in my opinion should be short and used with moderation, otherwise it becomes a distraction itself.
@Brian Holdsworth you should really collaborate with Austin Suggs from Gospel Simplicity. He's got a great TH-cam channel and is a Protestant that's studying out Catholicism, Orthodoxy, etc.
Gregorian chant is beautiful to listen to, but to worship I need to be able to understand the lyrics. Its similar to the Latin mass. I can appreciate the reverance and tradition, but my prayer is my own. To be able to unite my prayer to the priest's and congregation's, I need to know what is being said. So mass or music in the vernacular becomes most important.
It’s not that the “NO” crowd “prefers” the “contemporary” form of the mass... it’s that they understand the validity of both forms of the mass and resent that the TLM participants believe that the TLM is BETTER than the NO.
Thomas More So does a NO goer not like the NO version better? Do they not think it’s better? When we chose the TLM over the NOM we ran to it because we did think the TLM is better. The Eucharist is handled with utmost reverence. A NO priest in Knoxville would sit every time before Jesus was placed in the tabernacle. When my husband approached him about it, he pridefully dismissed my husband’s observation. It is the NO movement that dismissed the daily rosary, took out invocations of multiple saints from every Mass by ignoring Eucharistic prayer 1. Gregorian chant is beautiful, so why is it so hard to find? I could go on. Women know not to dress provocatively at the TLM which is a good influence on my daughters in order for them to keep their purity. The list goes on and on. The best part is, I don’t have to kneel on the bare floor to receive the Eucharist on the tongue - which was not even given to me as an option in the NO as a child in the 80s. I was taught to receive standing in my hand. The TLM is awesome, and is something I know was hidden from me as a child, teenager and young adult. I am so grateful to God He moved my family seven times to get us to a city with a TLM where the best effort is put forward as a sacrifice to God. God takes us imperfectly, but He also says be perfect as my father is perfect. It is important for us to worship Him as best we are able.
@@Angela41Fire 1. It's not that the NO SIMPLY prefers one mass over the other. We do have a preference but that's different from failing to acknowledge the validity of both forms. 2. My anecdotal experience at the NO mass has been drastically different from yours. Does that change a thing? No. In fact, my family was very active in our NO parish in the Archdiocese of Chicago and successfully brought the communion rail back to the church. Everyone wore suits to mass. 3. Another NO parish I attended growing up in the Archdiocese of Arlington, VA, used Gregorian chant regularly. My current NO parish uses Gregorian chant as well. There are also opportunities to attend the latin mass at these very "NO" parishes. 4. Here is the exegesis of that Matthew passage on perfection: www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/be-perfect.
The liturgical reforms created a new rite and impoverished many parts of the Mass. Take the Offertory vs the preparation of the gifts, the traditional Roman Canon vs its current form stripped of signs and gestures, roman canon vs eucharistic prayer II, the impoverishment of the confiteor and allowing it to be replaced by other things and the end of the prayers at the foot of the altar. The NO is valid, licit, sanctifying and disposes the faithful to piety, but it is impoverished nevertheless
Hi Brian, can you do a video on whether Catholics can work on Sundays, a coworker asked me this and not only was I unsure, but the internet also seemed to have different answers, I even read that you can work but you have to go to confession for it which doesn't make sense. Thank You! Edit: This was great video, the mariachi music always made me uncomfortable at mass, like it wasn't as special.
I wonder how we Cebuanos would be able to do this. We have a long and unhappy history of colonization which actually kept us from being proper Catholics, because we could not understand the liturgy in Latin. Is it possible for the traditional mass to be said in the local language? I believe this would be crucial for Cebuanos.
I understand what you're on about, with the fact that popular genres can't appeal Universally, but that same argument could be made for music such as Gregorian chant, even if it is designed and set apart from the liturgy.
Nothing will appeal to everyone. That's conceded. Gregorian chant, other forms of chant, and valid sacred music, aren't meant to be appealing in the sense of entertaining or amusing. Popular music is meant to be that. So if it isn't universally appealing, then it is, by its nature, failing in an ontological way. Sacred music is not when it fails to appeal. Instead, it invites us to be conformed to it so that we can learn to appreciate the beauty in it. In the same way, truth doesn't appeal to everyone. That doesn't mean we go and try to find our own truth; one that appeals to us. No, we try to conform ourselves to the truth so that it does appeal to us as we learn to flourish within its boundaries.
I gotta say, I absolutely LOVE Gregorian Chant. Neat that the Pope actually praised it the way he did, that's awesome. I think there are many kinds of music which are uplifting, but I also agree that "pop music" is not really appropriate for church, and certainly not for the extremely ceremonial nature of the Catholic services. It's jarring, it doesn't feel right, and I think it would take away significantly from the spirit intended for such meetings.
Tank you so Much Brian for this very wise video. I have heard someone Who had been ordained as a priest for 3 years, and attended a saint Pius V mass for the first time (...) who got really so appealed that he said that probably if we showed this type of rite to the muslims it would contribute greatly to convert them... And the grégorien chant is made in and for our churches for one purpose...to prepare and help us to unite in the sacrifice of our Savior Jésus Christ: the Eucharist. But saying that, it is also the ritual performed by the priest that is so important and his training to do so in order to disappear to let us feel Jesus come in the host which becomes so difficult these days with all the profane and banalised display.
The problem with Novus Ordo is not that it promotes irreverence, it doesn't. Instead of saying "worship by doing X, because X is the most reverent" it simply says "worship God in what you believe to be the most reverent way possible, and treat the liturgy with utmost respect." This doesn't mean to do away with gregorian chants, not by a longshot. But for non european cultures there are styles of music, and actions that are considerent as reverent as gregorian is to europeans. So it may make sense to use them to give glory to God. Novus Ordo is not meant to take away the reverence of mass, it just gives the whole universal Church the freedom to express that reverence in ways that are culturally meaningful and relevant in accordance with local beliefs and customs. Sadly a lot of parishes mistook this freedom for freedom to half-ass liturgy but that is not what it is meant to be ! The message of Novus Ordo isn't "do away with reverence and with your traditions" but rather : "All that you consider reverence, all that you consider glory, and all that you consider honour, offer all of it to God through the liturgy used in worship !" And so, we are not called to offer up mediocrity or profaneness. But what music, prayers and attitude we hold in highest regard and we consider worthiest of Him, in hopes that He may find our sacrifice worthy. As a european myself I LOVE gregorian chants, but there is also a lot of more recent classical sacred music that I think lifts prayers and gives just as much glory to God. Not pop music, but music that is written specifically with the purposed of giving glory and reverence to God, highlighting His greatness, and strengthening our prayers. I mean this is all just my opinion. I don't feel a specific need to practice the TLM rather than the NO but I most certainly want every mass I attend, regardless of rite, to not settle for mediocrity and instead try to be the best worship we can offer to God. Hopefully the whole Church can some day soon agree on the prime importance of reverence at the very least.
Hey, we get it. No condemnation. There are those who focus on worship but only play guitars... Finger plucking and Gregorian harmonies. There are those who can bridge the gap... It is not one or the other. We all have our crosses.
It's funny, actually the protestant converts have moved the southern Baptist music in our catholic church and it went from go tell it on the mountain to boogie woogie, and I don't prefer amazing grace at Easter and Christmas. It actually caused me to quit going to church. I told one of the choir ladies when I go to the catholic mass I want to hear catholic music a d I don't want to see and hear people clapping their hands and kicking up their feet yelling woo yea yea that is not holy that is not the catholic church and she proceeded to tell me that David danced for the lord, I said actually that verse is Greek and it literally translates to jump not dance oh she got within inches of my face leaning in and raising her voice with contempt and malice, but imagine how I felt through years of watching our holy mass deteriorate fist the Latin then the gregorian chant then the mass itself and now even the music is gone. When protestants have turned the mass protestant its no longer catholic and I'm not being hateful but um sick and fed up with accommodating protestants so they feel welcome, so why did they leave the Baptist, or the gospel or zion or whatever church they left if they are turning our catholic church into the church they left????? The music is part of the mass may not be the liturgy but it was part of the mass
I don't have an issue with bringing some of the modern forms of music into the Church, as long as its Not distracting from my time with God. It shouldn't be tasteless, cheap, raunchy, noisy, etc. Should be music that God would appreciate ultimately.
I don't see how it would. The new mass is supposed to use chant. In fact, if it was done according to the official instructions, it would be virtually the same as the TLM, but with some slight variations.
@@BrianHoldsworth thanks for the reply. I'm one of 'those' worship ministers and I know our music has reached people in ways that typical (not gregorian) church music has not. I would actually love to incorporate latin mass parts. I'm also attending TLM and def understand the draw, although I'm not sure it should be the only option. I once asked a priest how to learn the chant for TLM and if I could start with the more basic ones so we could have more high Masses. He replied don't bother since that stuff is elementary and not suitable for TLM. 😔
@BVale Talking of copyright, this can still apply to the printed sheet music even if the music itself is in the Public Domain. Please don't photocopy sheets or books which are copyright eg current Solemnes editions - it is the monks' livelihood. There is plenty of copyright-free chant and other liturgical music online. The quality can be a bit grungy, though.
I think I partly disagree. I love traditional church music, namely organ and choir. But I think the point of church music is to rejoice in the Lord, and it seems that the best way to do that is to sing emotionally and triumphantly. I’m not saying that one cannot find joy in Gregorian chants, but I do think that as long as the music is faithful to the Bible, is not explicitly profane, and does well to inspire the congregation’s love of God, it is music worthy of performance in worship.
This argument, though sound, should be directed at bishops and those they choose to be in charge of the liturgy in their diocese. Appealing to the common Catholics in the pews can not resolve this problem.
I usually agree with you Brian, but I only partially agree. Agree: We should select any music as appropriate to the liturgical celebration. The content and tone should be considered. However, I don't think that automatically excludes any genre. Every music genre, including Gregorian Chant, was innovative at some time. If your going to have a guitar mass, set it aside, announce it and let those who find it to enhance their faith go to it. As long as content is appropriate, it does not do dishonor or divide the body. And this is from someone who personally would avoid a guitar mass.
Gregorian chant was around 3000 years ago and was not an innovation even then. _Sacrosanctum Concilium_ sets out the guidelines. Catholics should stick to them. Unfortunately, when the attempt is made, the liturgy becomes a cause of dissent.
@@rickmiller2042 There has been a lot of work done on this subject, notably by the late Dr Mary Berry. Gregorian chant tones were discovered to be in use by Yemeni Jews who had been isolated for at least 2000 years. The original music of the Roman Church was similar to Byzantine music and is known as Old Roman. It was re-worked around the 9th century by the monks of Charlemagne's empire, and that is the Gregorian chant we still have. It was simplified around the 10th century when the stave system of notation was introduced. Byzantine music is still used in the Greek church and to a lesser extent in the Russian and Serbian churches. There is also the music of the Coptic church which is thought to be that of ancient Egypt. Characteristically it is modal and melismatic, as is Jewish liturgical music. Guitar amplification was not practicable until affordable, quiet and non-distorting transistorised power amplifiers were available. When SC was written, typical audio output valves (tubes) were would not produce enough power - you would have to spend a lot of money to get 25 watts which would be lost in a church. Also valve amplifiers should not be moved around as they are easily damaged - the glass valves are fragile and printed circuits had only just come into use. It would not have occurred to anyone that guitars might be used in the liturgy so of course they were not excluded. The liturgy is "received" and should not be catering for different "tastes". It then ends up as a source of division and conflict, which is the last thing that is needed. The devil smiles.
@@rickmiller2042 The liturgy was spread by the apostles. Who else? The Mass, in particular, the Liturgy of St James, is modelled on the Jewish temple liturgy. The instructions in SC are as clear as they could be. It doesn't say that other instruments or electronic devices not yet heard of should not be used. If you don't want to have to listen to guitar masses and music by Bernadette Farrell or Paul Inwood, or Luther or Cruger, or Neander, then you have to make sure the masses are silent, which can never be guaranteed. If you come out of mass feeling angry, what was the point of going? The problem now is that the can of worms is open.
@@rickmiller2042 Gregorian chant is much, much older than the Christian church, though it was revised around 800 AD to approximately its present form. Some of what we think of as Gregorian mass chants are used in Jewish synagogue services. This has been well researched. The original liturgy was in Aramaic, which is still used in some of the eastern churches. Then it was adapted to Greek in the Greek speaking world. Then Latin was adopted in _those parts of the church_ which came under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of the West, ie the Pope. There were several reasons for this. One was practical, as the services were much the same everywhere and priests could be sent anywhere. The introduction of compulsory priestly celibacy was for the same reason. The second reason for Latin was that the Pope claimed to be the supreme head of the one Christian church throughout the world and the standardisation of the liturgy was a mark of this unity. But this is well known. Why are you asking me? Thus, the use of Latin was both a means of maintaining the unity of the Christian church and a sign of its Catholicity, ie universality. By giving up Latin, the unity of the Catholic church was weakened and the Catholic church effectively gave up its claim to being One Church. As you have pointed out, Latin versus vernacular is a point of division and friction. It can be much worse in places where there are different nationalities in the parish. In the local Catholic parish where I live, there are Masses in about ten different languages from Arabic to Spanish and Togaluk, plus Latin. It does not make for a happy united parish. The reform of the liturgy is an important reason, for the decline of the Catholic church in the past 40 years. The change to the vernacular was in itself particularly damaging for the Latin Rite Catholic church. This was made worse by poor translation. On top of that was the banal music. The damage was compounded by changes like communion in the hand, abandoning the reception of communion while kneeling, the removal of communion rails and other changes in church architecture, and the practice of celebrating Mass facing the people. Liturgical changes have been a destroyer of faith, just as they were, intentionally, at the Reformation. They are not the only thing, of course. The Vatican 2 Fathers were warned not to make these changes at the time but they went ahead regardless. Personally, I see no way back. Add in the mismanagement from the Vatican and it looks as if it will be finished in another generation - it has been a sort of assisted suicide.
@@rickmiller2042 I see that you edited out most of what you said. It is undisputed that the Liturgy was spread by the Apostles. It was closely modelled on the Temple Liturgy. All the early Christians were Jews. The Sacrifice of the Mass supersedes the Temple Sacrifice but the structure of the service is exactly the same. If you go to a Jewish synagogue you will find that it is the same today. The early Church used the vernacular ie Aramaic or Greek. These languages are still in use. There was also a Liturgy in Gothic, and later came a Liturgy in Slavonic which is still widespread including in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. There can therefore be no objection in principle to the use of this vernacular. However, the Latin Rite Catholic Church adopted Latin early on, for particular reasons, and the change to vernacular has been endlessly problematic. A change to vernacular was considered at the Council of Trent in the 1500s, but the idea was dropped. Given the amount of travel and migration in the past century, the arguments for staying with Latin were stronger in 1960 than they were 400 years before.
I love Gregorian Chant, but I feel like there’s something to be said for 20th or 21st century music written for Catholic mass in the local language. Tell me you haven’t felt moved while hearing the choir sing the Prayer of St. Francis after receiving the Eucharist, or that you haven’t felt inspired to go out and evangelize when the accompaniment stops and the whole congregation sings the chorus of a song like Canticle of the Turning a cappella after the dismissal. Gregorian Chant is the gold standard, but when done right, I think modern music can serve a similar purpose. It can draw attention to the gravity and sacredness of the mass, and move the hearts of those contemplating their faith.
For every person that finds those songs inspiring, there is someone who finds them annoying. So that can't be the solution. We can't choose music based on the potential for it to appeal to some people. That's why musical genres exist. We need to transcend beyond that trap and simply sing the prayers of the mass. That's what chant is. It's not a genre or style of music. It's a way of singing the prayers. Singing songs at mass is not what we're supposed to be doing and has never been the tradition of the Church.
Brian Holdsworth Singing hymns instead of propers is certainly not ideal, but I fail to see an issue with singing them alongside the propers (as long as they are good hymns, which many modern ones, unfortunately, are not).
@@andrewburch3694 That's a bit of a different topic. It's much worse than "not ideal". According to the council who wrote the new mass, replacing propers with hymns is depriving the faithful of their rights and forbidden. I don't think that hymns are inadmissible, altogether, though.
Brian Holdsworth Agreed. “Not ideal” is putting it lightly. It wasn’t an unknown phenomenon before the liturgical reform, but at least in those times the priest would read the propers quietly at the altar. In the Novus Ordo, they’re often omitted entirely.
@@BrianHoldsworth "For every person that finds those songs inspiring, there is someone who finds them annoying" applies to Gregorian Chant just as well, unfortunately. Gregorian Chant may be the best, but there is evidence in the bible that instruments -- many different types -- may be used. The best example is Psalm 150 which states in part: Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with clanging cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals! I believe we must take into account intent. If our sole intent with our music, in whatever form or style, is to praise God, then it is not profane. When allow other reasons such as to draw younger people into mass, we start slipping.
Amen! You nailed it. (And I have actually left a church years ago because the they threw out their a capella hymnals and "modernized" their songs and went to a guitar band format -- that music was SO un-edifying (I would go so far as to call it spiritually disturbing)!
Thanks for finally, and I might add, satisfactorily explaining that parable . I had always taken it to mean our Bible bookstore was in grave danger of Gods wrath. That’s the way I feel when I hear CCM in any setting. It’s just bad music, as well as profane. Just wondering what anyone thinks of the concept that: as the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, is music as well? Mozart’s Ave Vernum Corpus, Vivaldi’s Gloria, and, of course Gregorian chant had to have been a download from heaven. Hence the perfect beauty that is timeless. I too got sucked into CCM... (would that qualify as a mortal sin since is made Jesus so mad)...several years ago. I love traditional hymns because they are not profane as well. But I think the reason chants are more Holy is because there is no meter or cadence.....”timeless” like heaven. Love your insights....except for the ones concerning Vatican II. You don’t think there is a connection between CCM and Vatican II? Seriously?
You refer to the profane. Interesting that the word is derived from pro fanum. Fanum being Latin for temple and the lands around it. Profane then means in front of, or outside of, the temple and the lands around it.
@@BrianHoldsworth but it's just a link to the artist. I've looked through his stuff and I can't find this song Edit: nevermind, it's Introit: The Love of God for anyone who's interested.
Although I love the TLM, Gregorian chant or traditional Catholic hymns it simply isn't for everyone. I've been to charismatic healing Masses that contained contemporary worship music which were very good and people were on fire for the Lord. I think we need to stay open to the leading of the Holy spirit rather than demanding things be one way or the other. Just my two cents. God Bless.
As an african I agree with you! Everything is right in this video, but each culture should be allowed to develop its form of sacred music; It is possible and it's been done. The main thing is it must be suitable for the sacred liturgy and prayer and interiority. You can accomplish this with organ, but also with african drums, with other instruments like the Kora or the piano who can be played in a celestial way.
Yes, liturgical music should be sacred, set apart, not used for purposes other than worship. It is an aid to get us in the worshipping frame of mind. Chant is the oldest and most tried-and-true sacred genre, but not the only one. Hymns are also separate, sacred. Maybe the instrumentation doesn't matter so much as the reverent and sober tone.
A note from a small island: my wife and I have started to attend a Mass
Glory to God🙏
New zealand??
Welcome! God bless your family 😄
Long Island?
Castlebay, Barra?
Hey, that's me! I've been following your content for a little bit now, Brian. Thanks for your thoughtful insight, and thanks for the shoutout! If you ever want to have a chat on either of our channels, let me know. God bless!
❤️ I hope that happens. God bless you both.
@@culturecoroner I think that would be a great time. I'll see what I can do
.... as I was saying, a Mass in the extraordinary form in Cardiff, Wales. It takes us an hour or so to get there from England. It's a sung Mass in the Gregorian style, with an organist and choir of three. It fulfills all that you say worshipful music should be.
Wow, what a great experience. Such a shame you have the inconvenience of travelling all the time, however. Isn't there anywhere in England near to wear you live? The only extraordinary near to me - 40/45 MINS away - all are in low Mass. We need this movement to spread!
Gregorian chants is best for Roman Church in its Liturgy. It's her identity
Vatican II explicitly gives pride of place to Gregorian chant.
@@worldnotworld yes
I just sang Gregorian chant for the first time at Mass last Sunday, and it was a very special experience. It just feels right in the Mass.
For many years I played guitar at Mass. I came to a parting of the ways with the powers that be and left.
But after more than 25 years of playing at basically the same Mass, I didn't get a single note of praise or thanks from anyone. I didn't do music for praise. I did it to praise the Lord. Maybe the music was indeed more of a distraction rather than adding to the holiness of the occasion.
I loved a lot of the music we played but I also noted that every few years a new group of people would look to other music and it became an endless cycle of trying to find the most recent music to attract young people. So as I reach my 70's, I find myself drawn to the traditional Latin Mass and it's music. I see the growth of the church coming from the more traditional value and liturgy that are in a sense timeless.
That’s really beautiful. Thank you for sharing. ❤️
And that's exactly why I quit going to mass, because it's not Catholic it takes away from the entire liturgy and hand clapping and hoop'in and hollering isn't what I want to hear at the Catholic mass
I think more could be done in introducing silence in the literary too.
I honestly think this is the most unique Catholic TH-cam channel I’ve ever seen. You take a very distinct perspective on things, a perspective that, to me, is very reminiscent of ancient Catholicism and how the Church Fathers thought. Your concepts of beauty, reason, and Christian teachings is refreshing. Godspeed!
Thanks Brian. Lutheran brother here who is seeing this struggle in my own heart where I sit.
Nothing beats the power of the Pipe Organ and the human voice.
As someone who plays drums every Sunday with a guitarist and pianist and singer, I can definitely feel that when we do a good job, the sacred element has been lost due to distractions.
Excellent Brian! I’ve been involved in contemporary music in church since 1968 where our school principal, a catholic nun, invited some of us to play guitar for masses. Our church also had high masses in which I sang in choir. Only in the past 10 years have I come to appreciate that music can and should be written specifically for the liturgy. There are some wonderful masses here in Rochester that have Hymnals of Gregorian chant, where the choir is not even visible.
I always thought of the "Folk/Teen Mass" as penitential in nature. You've suffered enough.
I feel like this guy takes my thoughts and makes them sound smart. Right on Mr. Holdsworth.
I too use to play my violin with the cool guitar kids and drummer, even recently, I was asked to play for Holy Week. I did but it didn't feel right. I have since found a TLM in the area and will drive 1.5hrs to get there, with Gregorian Chant. Worth it!
GREGORIAN CHANT FTW!!!
and if using instruments, the pipe organ is always our #1...
Never thought I'd see "Gregorian Chant" and "FTW" in the same sentence.
@@theoldsaxon6484 It definitely is in my world! ;-) Love Gregorian chant.
What does FTW mean f'bomb the world? I find this absolutely offensive!
@@bernadette1928 I think it's "For the win"
Gracias por los subtítulos, saludos desde Argentina 🇦🇷
Viva Cristo Rey!!!
I should say that I completely agree with you, in terms of taste. Gregorian chant is my preferred musical style of worship. It communicates the transcendent nature of the Mass in an incredibly humble and simple way.
I took a class in undergrad on the history of Music in the Catholic Church, and this argument cannot be defended from the perspective of tradition. Polyphonic music had its origins in the secular world- and then Palestrina made it beautiful and transcendent enough for the Church to deem it acceptable. Operatic music had its origins in the secular world (and for the record, if you’ve ever seen/heard an opera- you know the content is as scandalous as what we hear today in modern rock or hip-hop). And yet, Schubert’s Ave Maria goes unquestioned- because it’s beautiful and transcendent.
Perhaps a better argument should be this: if you can use the drums (not a drum set) and guitars prayerfully in a way that can communicate the transcendence of the Mass- rare but possible- then perhaps. If not, then put the instrument down.
I totally agree.
You make me hungry for a meaningful worship service.
The main problem is that the Church itself and it's bishops don't support the gregorian chant anymore. In my city there are 7 Catholic churches but neither of them has masses with latin chants. (I live in Central Europe)
That is sad. I believe strongly in the importance of the vernacular, but also in the importance of the Latin Mass. I don't see it as one or the other.
I agree that all the arguing between traditional/contemporary factions distracts us from the grand duty of evangelizing. If you're saying that both sides are competing for their personal preferences when it comes to music for the liturgy, then I agree all the way with what you were saying at the beginning. From my experience, however, the traditional voices are the ones who argue in favor of gregorian chant and they express it as appropriate for the liturgy and not as their personal preferences, or at least that's how I've understood them.
Absolutely agree! My wife and I have been on this tumultuous journey through various denominations for many years (currently exploring Catholicism) - and music has always been a central issue because of the irreverence and profanity. I eventually reached a point, personally, where I believed that music should not be a part of church worship at all because of all this - and, to be clear, I hold a master's degree in music and am a professional musician and scholar, so that's kind of a crazy thing to believe!
Great video and well=articulated arguments! :)
Thank you for this video! I have sang in choirs my whole life and been exposed to beautiful ancient sacred music and it always baffled
me that many Catholic Churches did not embrace this incredible music.
The Church needs to harvest sacred musicians as ministers. There are too many musicians who perceive what they do at church as a “gig.” In scripture, the priests and the musicians of the temple are mentioned side by side. Being a true minister of music is a sacred calling - one’s life is devoted to developing it, growing in it and living it...
Ah, if only churches would follow your high ideals. Unfortunately, most singers and players employed by Catholic churches are well-meaning but low-skilled people. Add to that the impatience of most priests with anything that takes "too much time" or that takes attention away from themselves and you have a recipe for mediocrity.
@@marks.7593 Uhhh, yep... I get it... You're preaching to the choir.
You have opened my eyes sir. Thank you. I grew up catholic but left it once I got older and turned to non denominational churches. I now see
Praying you will return home to the Catholic faith
Great video Brian. I only have to point that in actual fact the normative form of Mass in the West is the *Missa Solemnis* the solemn Mass, which has always been sung. Singing is essentially part of the rite. Gregorian chant is not an addendum to the liturgy; it *is* the liturgy, when sung. The low Mass (properly the *Missa Privata* ) only came to exist in the Medieval period, when in monasteries a flood of enthusiastic vocations led to lots of individual priests all celebrating Mass at once (concelebration having been largely phased out); thus a concession was made so that Mass might be merely said or recited rather than sung.
All other non-chant music, is only ornamental, and strictly optional. It is why, for example, the organ is prohibited during Lent. Not belonging to liturgy as such, it may be dispensed with.
It is notable that in the East, all the various rites are sung, even if only the priest is celebrating. Nor do they permit any instruments of any sort into their liturgies, having only the human voice resound to God's praises. I think this is the wiser course, personally.
For a fantastic talk on the merits and history of Gregorian chant in particular, see this video: th-cam.com/video/-dO9i7UI2Kk/w-d-xo.html
A Russian Orthodox Church recently relocated near my home which has given me the opportunity to attend some of their services. It’s a very small parish, but the singing and chanting is beautiful. My Catholic Parish, which is 10 times larger, doesn’t come close even during the Latin Mass which is primarily the Low Mass.
@@flisom @Fred I'm glad you find the singing at the Orthodox Church beautiful, but you shouldn't be attending Orthodox services. They are schismatics, therefore their rites are illicit and as such sacrilegious.
You should support your Catholic parish as much as possible, to try and help it grow and promote the TLM. Eventually with enough interest a regular High Mass could be celebrated there, which would be extraordinary. I'd recommend getting to a High Mass if you've never been. It's out of this world .
@@ClassicPhilosophyFTW What is sacrilegious about the Orthodox liturgy? It is exactly the same as the Greek Catholic liturgy used by, for example, the Ukrainian Catholic Church.
It is a good thing to support a Catholic parish which promotes the TLM but they are few and far between and generally exist under the hostile eye of the other half of the parish, the bishop and the pope. Priests who celebrate the TLM get a hard time from their parishioners and the hierarchy. How long can that even continue?
@@ClassicPhilosophyFTW The Catholic Church is a Novus Ordo Church and I accept that fact. The Tridentine Mass is the exception and even where it is available, Catholics are unlikely to have the other six sacrements available in the Latin Tridentine Rite. In other words, our funeral Mass will likely be in the new rite. To make the situation even more tenuous, the Bishop can at any moment decided to move my priest and then even the Latin Mass will be gone.
Anyone who has witnessed an Easter Orthodox Liturgy will recognized it. Many, may even feel sorrow for what the Catholic Church once had and then through on the trash heap of history. I know I do.
As to the schism between the East and West, I leave that to God. What I do know is the rite you call illicit is more holy than any Novus Ordo Mass that I've attended. The people of the Church can judge me as they will, but I leave my final judgement to God.
@@flisom I am not an expert or a theologian but I too find the Orthodox mass uplifting in a pure and sacred way in a way lacking in ky local RC parish
"Therefore it is regrettable that the ROLE OF THE CHOIR is not yet understood in the Church. Many choirs perform in such a way as to attract attention on themselves, as if they were the centre of the celebration. The choir has a MINISTERIAL ROLE - the Church says - to play in the celebration of the Liturgy. Ministry means SERVICE Therefore the Choir is at the service of the Congregation, the people of God. Its purpose and task is to lead and help, to animate and support, to encourage the full participation of the congregation....The primary task of the choir is to lead, to guide, to ENABLE the whole assembly to celebrate and sing the praises of God. Let them not forget the verse of that Psalm: "Not to us, o Lord, not to us, but to your name give the glory!" This should be the MOTTO of every serious, mature, faith-full choir!....I want to denounce that kind of OBSESSION by the choirs to fill in every small space with "noise" (unwanted, unnecessary music), instead of giving a much needed break of silence." Fr Piero Lazzarini SX, 16 September 2016.
Jesus didn't know Gregorian chant but he still worshipped God!
The need for sacredness is huge! The Catholic Church is and should be sacred but it isn't treated that way! How many masses have I attended that people come in to chat, to socialise, to exchange stories etc. The secular culture has no respect of sacred space and of the sacred. I agree with everything you have said. I just can't image how angry Christ is right now being muzzled, secular, hillsong music being played and those people who are still convinced that the Church needs to modernise... give me a break. We need sacred music and sacred spaces and you are right, it should be universal.
Many liturgical ministers and/or choir directors are paid to provide music. Gregorian chant is extremely beautiful and pulls one deeper into unitive contemplation of Christ’ sacrifice and the Mass. As a parent who lost a toddler, the band music is quite a distraction to my desired depth of plunging into the mystery of the Mass. Many directors do not know how to read chant. The “do” scale doesn’t even begin at middle c - at least the is what I think I learned at a class last night haha! There is much education needed to acquaint music directors with reading the ancient music. The next step is to create an opportunity for anyone who wants to learn chant to learn chant.
“Christianity will go,” Lennon said, “It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue about that; I'm right and I will be proved right.We're more popular than Jesus now.
Went to Church and heard the choir sing John Lennon's "Imagine" I walked out"Imagine there's no heavenIt's easy if you tryNo hell below usAbove us, only sky""You may say I'm a dreamerBut I'm not the only oneI hope someday you'll join usAnd the world will be as one"
Come to a Traditional Latin Mass!
Now when we know about the importance of Gregorian Chants in the liturgy, how do we uproot the cultural and traditional rock/pop/folk music etc. which have so deeply been rooted inside the minds of the faithful and the congregations?
Thank you so much for this! By and large, it was excellent--and much needed today in the Latin Church, where Chant is treated either as an interesting, albeit exotic,
blast from the past. When people hear the term "Gregorian Chant" today--and particularly, when they experience it at Masses or other Liturgies--it's often done poorly,
without regard for the proper rules for performance, and in Latin, which makes it (within the context of a service that is otherwise offered in the vernacular) SO "rarefied"
that it gives the clear impression that it is something reserved for special occasions only.
My only problem with your presentation is the clear impression you give that Liturgy in the West can be considered properly served when simply "spoken", BUT that chant can be "added", particularly if or when the idea is to make the liturgical event even more special. That has never been the position of the Church. The Liturgical bottom line is that the Solemn celebration of the Liturgy, complete with a full use of all its "sensual" elements, is the norm. While a Mass not chanted, or without incense, or done
in less than the finest vesture, etc.) may still be valid, the "optics" conveyed say that the mysteries celebrated at this kind of event are somehow less awesome than when done on Christmas or Pascha (Easter) or at the visit of the Bishop, when we "pull out all the stops".
Unfortunately, this popular line of thought pervades the Liturgy not only with respect to chant, but as I have implied, across the board. "Low Mass", which was the regular experience of Catholics through to the mid-60s, no longer exists officially as a liturgical designation. Rather, the understanding which the Church officially promotes is that the Mass is always to be celebrated with greatest reverence (and solemnity) normally, but when this is seriously inconvenient, some things may be temporarily replaced or removed if necessary. The post-conciliar document Musicam Sacram offers some suggestions for how this can be done, while leaving the topic
open for further exploration within certain perameters.
In the 60s, the idea that the Liturgy must be "simplified" began to mean in the popular mind that it must be pruned of anything out of the ordinary experience of the average worshipper. Consequently churches were ransacked and pruned of whatever those "in charge" considered exotic or excessive. Statues and images were reduced or eliminated because popular thought was that they distracted from the reality the rites themselves were trying to re-present. The form the rites took were constantly "reconsidered" in an attempt to make them "relevant" or "meaningful", without any corresponding effort (by and large) to explain their meaning through incorporating an explanation of those rubrics, words or forms, in the homily. Worse, the idea that the Rites must be clear and self-explanatory became pervasive even to the simplest mind.
As a result, the popular experience of Liturgy, especially at the Parish level, was trivialized and contrived, and worst, boring.
The Norm for Liturgy is that the entire person is to be involved, which means that not only the mind, but the senses too, must be engaged. The Liturgy is that privileged place wherein man is taken up out of time and into eternity where he offers his praise before God Himself. Consequently, what is done liturgically must be so special that the average worshipper can feel "transported" beyond the realms of earth into the Divine Presence itself. That has traditionally been done in a number of ways, but the Chanting of Liturgical texts, from Scripture readings to the ordinary prayers, is primary. Your presentation really did a fine job explaining that.
Today, chant is very poorly understood by the average person in the pew--and even the clergy that stand at the altar! It is considered monotonous and dull, and by the standards of contemporary hymnody it probably is. But the real problem isn't chant. It's understanding why music is so fundamental to worship that, without it, something is seriously "wrong". The reason we "sing" at Mass isn't to keep ourselves entertained, but to assist us in moving outside ourselves so that the words we pray can surround and wash over us, and ultimately "zone us out" of the here and now so that we can, more easily, enter into the "there and then" of God's eternity. Metric music, which we are surrounded by throughout the day, can't do that because it's intended (as you pointed out) to focus on a special idea or emotion which the composer thought very important. All those things, while perhaps very important in the day-to-day of our lives, can distract us from the very thing we are at the Liturgy to encounter. On the other hand, the "boring" sameness of chant and the quietness of the liturgical atmosphere can better enable us to be moved into the awesomeness of the God's presence, and dispose us to really "relate" to Him.
Chant has traditionally been the liturgical vehicle for prayer in all major religions because it can do something nothing else can. In our Catholic culture today, however, it has been replaced, because its function has been misunderstood. The strange environment it provides has been re-considered and dubbed "spooky" because it is so foreign, and yet that is precisely why it so essential. It more easily than anything else renders us capable of coming to an awareness of entering into something totally different. Without that awareness, our worship is too easily focused on ourselves.
I am a first-generation Irishman (both parents from Ireland), which means born and bred Roman Catholic. I entered the seminary in 1964, and so have an experience of not just contemporary Catholicism, but its earlier forms. The Latin Rite was pretty much all I really truly knew until very shortly before Ordination, when I encountered the Melkite Church. Within 2 years of becoming a priest, I was also granted bi-ritual faculties so that I could serve in the nearby Melkite Parish as an assistant, at which time I became acquainted not only with a much different form of Liturgical expression, but, more importantly, with an ability to become much more objective about Liturgy
generally. As I considered my new Liturgical experience over and against that I'd grown up with, I began to see how much of what I'd come to accept in light of the popularly expressed changes since Vatican II (and their corresponding explanations and understanding) really "cheapened" worship and short-changed worshippers.
Priests, particularly parish priests, need to be seriously exposed to the use of chant in the Liturgy, because it is priests who are often the biggest hinderance in its re-introduction and regular use. Just like everyone else, they have all sorts of wrong-headed impressions of it, and an overall fear, therefore, that if they were to feature it routinely in their parishes as a regular part of worship (and NOT just on Sunday, but daily as well!!!), their parishioners would flee. My own experience as a Pastor has shown me that quite the opposite is true.
What's more, on the market today there are a number of "worship aids" which make the various liturgical texts highly accessible to ordinary folks, even to those who are "musically illiterate". Fr. Samuel Weber, OSB, for example, has produced an English version of the Roman Gradual (the proper Antiphons for Mass--i.e. Introit, Responsorial Psalm and Communion verse) as well as the Divine Office for use in a parish setting. In addition to the various works Fr. Weber, Adam Bartlett has produced a very fine volume entitled Simple English Propers. For me, who never really learned modern musical notation very well, the fact that these are written in Gregorian notation makes them even more valuable, especially since "reading" is so much easier for a music novice.
I'm so sorry to have written such a long note, as I'm sure you're a busy guy. I hope that what I've written is clear and intelligible. If it isn't, please let me know and I'll try to fix it for you. I really enjoy your videos, and hope you keep them coming. FYI, my email address is: martingfarrell@yahoo.com.
God bless!
Fr. Martin Farrell, o.p.
This may have been a long note but it was worth it. I'm a lay person but many things tou memrion about how the senses are a key part of the process ring true for me. Thank you
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I pray that God will continue to guide you through your faith🙏🙏🙏
This is excellent. The liturgy war is over listening to the Church or not listening - the solution is simple. Thank you for this video!
Sooo clear and I couldn't agree more!! Excellent argument Brian! I'm following you from Buenos Aires, Argentina :)
You brought up a lot of excellent points which I'd never really thought about much, other than the fact that I personally dislike the modern approach to the Church's liturgical music. We could definitely use more Gregorian Chant to calm people down and put them in the proper mood for worship. Thank you for all your deep insights into Catholicism and the spiritual realm.
Brian you’re such a considerate and respectful faithful. And I completely agree with you. Sacredness where sacredness is called. I love Gregorian chants in mass: one of my favorite Pange Lingua Gloriosi. A time and place for everything. 🙏
Deo Gratias.
Thank you brother for beautiful explanation
I recently visited Tur Abdin, the Turkish Region in which there are still Syriac-Orthodox Christians, and got to talk with many Priests and monks there. Their liturgy is entirely sung in Syriac, a mostly dead language (someone can speak Syriac, a Few people speak Neoaramaic which is similar and the majority of them speaks turkish or arabic). How do they manage to preserve it? Instead of our sunday school, they teach to children every afternoon after secular school, in the weekends and in summer to read in Syriac the Scriptures, to chant the Liturgy of the Hour and the Mass and through the liturgical chant they convey the doctrine of the church. In this way, though besieged by a Muslim society, they managed to preserve their liturgical and thelogical Tradition (in the church the two are one: lex orandi lex credendi).
Now, the Second Vatican Council received and accepted the call from the people of God to a greater participation in liturgy. However, they also called to a rediscovery of Gregorian Chant, the proper Form of latin church music. We should have applied a Model similar to that of the Syriac Orthodox, teaching Gregorian Chant and Latin to children, so that they could participate better in the Mass.
An interesting side effect of the syriac orthodox method is that Christian children in Turkey study a lot more than their Muslim peers and they are used to attach great value to studying. They tend to know more languages and to be employed more in liberal professions (attorney, physician) or in money-lending and money-changing, because of their higher cultural Level.
I am never disappointed by your logic & reasoning, great video!!!
Thank you for noting and expanding so clearly the odd uneasiness I've felt when the pop music invades the holy celebrations. (I love Gregorian chant, and especially enjoy singing Tallis as well.)
Thank you. God Bless.
Amen! Great insights as always. Thank you and God bless for being one of the peacemakers.
This is a very great video and needs to be shared. However, the only flaw in this video is that it fails to recognise the diversity inside the church itself; by that I mean the Eastern traditions. One way to address this would have been to say this video was exculsively about the liturgy of the Latin rite or you could have mentioned the common roots of Gregorian, Byzantine, Antiochene, Coptic, Aramaic and Syriac chant, by that I mean the chant in the Temple of Jerusalem. Anyway, its a great video!!!!!!!
That was really good! Thank you 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Music is a big part of religion for so many people. In fact music may be as old as humanity itself. If you have ever been to a Welsh Church, or an Anglican Church, or a Uniting Church, or Jimmy Swaggart, or an African American Revivalist Church, music is a tool to connect people with Jesus and God. But the music must be written for the purpose.
Such wise words...and hard to hear....but i am inspired!! 🙂🙌🙌🙌
You hit the nail on the head here brother!
As a minister of music and organist in a parish; I get this a lot… "But the people like it! It makes the "feel" good! It brings them closer to God!" People look to their emotions as a basis for constituting music as "good," not what is sanctifying their souls. The second half of this issue is the LACK of quality musicians within the church. Just because you have an "organist" who makes the organ sound like a carousel and has no formal training playing the organ does not make music sanctifying either. Sacred music must be selected, practiced, meditated upon, and executed well for it to be effective. The easy way out is to pick "whatever is easy, makes me feel good and familiar to the people," which is evident in 90% of Novus ordo parishes in the US. And while participation of the assembly is important, we cannot allow that compromise their exposure to good, quality music.
Kevin Litzinger - Wonderfully said! Greetings, fellow organist.
The thing I feel is overlooked here is that the Bible actually tells us how to worship musically, most notably in the book of Psalms. It tells of stringed instruments, flutes, drums and tambourines. Psalm 150 doesn't tell us to sing, but it does tell us to use a litany of musical instruments, including the precursors to guitars and drum sets
Amen.
Just as a guitar can be used in profane ways, so can the human voice (profanity), and also the pipe organ (Fantom of the Opera). So just because an instrument, like the guitar, is used in profane ways does not mean it can't also be used in sacred music.
"Phantom"
You've nailed it here. It's incredible that given V2 people don't even know what Gregorian Chant _is._
One of Olivier Messiaen's most beautiful compositions is an _a capella_ liturgical choral piece, _O Sacrum Convivium._ It was his singular contribution to the tradition. He wrote no more, because he knew plainchant was already the perfect music.
Thank you so much for this video. And for all you do. You're doing God's work
I agree with you 200%! But (please forgive my nitpicking - I'm not being purposefully critical) could you make another video about this subject that 1. doesn't go off on tangents, 2. doesn't ridicule those who disagree, 3. doesn't focus on your own experience, and 4. has more examples of beautiful music such as Paul Jernberg's? I LOVE your quotes from church documents, etc. but I want to share one of your excellent videos with people who might not agree, so we need to be careful not to talk down to them. Thanks for all you do and God bless.
So much wisdom here. Thank you.
I can see where you come from, and I agree - Gregorian chant should be the standard music for Mass. But people are Christian 24/7, not just on Sunday mornings, and music can and must be an integral part of a Christian life. Especially in countries where national identity and Catholicism are intimately intertwined. Here in Spain, this has been the case for millennia: Mozarabic chant, Renaissance polyphony, sacramental dramas, Christian flamenco, marching music for Holy Week processions, Christmas carols, hymns for the Marian devotions of every corner of our country... and Gregorian chant too, certainly. These styles are diverse in forms and usages, but they speak both to the heart of a nation and to the richess of a common Catholic heritage. Sure, you can argue that they should be sung outside of the Mass, e.g. Christmas carols were traditionally song when after Mignidht Mass, not inside the church. But the outburst of joy that the coming of Our Lord brings to people cannot just be exclusively reserved to a building, a schedule or a historic time. Especially when, for many Spaniards, our nationality and our faith are intimately intertwined, as acknowledged by all popes. Since this is the case in many other countries, it's and opportunity to share and learn from other Catholics all around the globe. Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that I understand your position, but I would have liked to hear that popular music has its appeal, whether in or outside mass.
I was born in 1971 and was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school until 4th grade. I was never taught Latin. I think I didn't even know the Latin mass existed until I reached high school when I dated a girl whose father insisted they attend the Latin mass.
Nothing tops Ave Maria. And I say that as an Anglican.
I would really LOVE it if you would share your favorite sacred music that you may find on TH-cam or otherwise.
I learn something from every video you put up, thanks.
Acoustic guitar does not make for a very inspiring service.
"But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, `God, have mercy on me, a sinner. ... "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
@@Lulue_90 And?? No one is talking about morality here, but about which music style better disposes people for the Liturgy
Just remember that music is NOT an essential part of Mass. It just help to smoothly connect all the parts, so in my opinion should be short and used with moderation, otherwise it becomes a distraction itself.
@Brian Holdsworth you should really collaborate with Austin Suggs from Gospel Simplicity. He's got a great TH-cam channel and is a Protestant that's studying out Catholicism, Orthodoxy, etc.
Great video - The truth is the way to live.
Acapella, Byrd's Ave Verbum Corpus on Corpus Christi etc.
Gregorian chant is beautiful to listen to, but to worship I need to be able to understand the lyrics. Its similar to the Latin mass. I can appreciate the reverance and tradition, but my prayer is my own. To be able to unite my prayer to the priest's and congregation's, I need to know what is being said. So mass or music in the vernacular becomes most important.
Chant doesn't have to be in a language you don't understand.
Well said, we develop in our faith as we grow.
Thanks for this video Brian, I 100% agree with your point of view.
It’s not that the “NO” crowd “prefers” the “contemporary” form of the mass... it’s that they understand the validity of both forms of the mass and resent that the TLM participants believe that the TLM is BETTER than the NO.
Thomas More So does a NO goer not like the NO version better? Do they not think it’s better? When we chose the TLM over the NOM we ran to it because we did think the TLM is better. The Eucharist is handled with utmost reverence. A NO priest in Knoxville would sit every time before Jesus was placed in the tabernacle. When my husband approached him about it, he pridefully dismissed my husband’s observation. It is the NO movement that dismissed the daily rosary, took out invocations of multiple saints from every Mass by ignoring Eucharistic prayer 1. Gregorian chant is beautiful, so why is it so hard to find? I could go on. Women know not to dress provocatively at the TLM which is a good influence on my daughters in order for them to keep their purity. The list goes on and on. The best part is, I don’t have to kneel on the bare floor to receive the Eucharist on the tongue - which was not even given to me as an option in the NO as a child in the 80s. I was taught to receive standing in my hand. The TLM is awesome, and is something I know was hidden from me as a child, teenager and young adult. I am so grateful to God He moved my family seven times to get us to a city with a TLM where the best effort is put forward as a sacrifice to God. God takes us imperfectly, but He also says be perfect as my father is perfect. It is important for us to worship Him as best we are able.
@@Angela41Fire
1. It's not that the NO SIMPLY prefers one mass over the other. We do have a preference but that's different from failing to acknowledge the validity of both forms.
2. My anecdotal experience at the NO mass has been drastically different from yours. Does that change a thing? No. In fact, my family was very active in our NO parish in the Archdiocese of Chicago and successfully brought the communion rail back to the church. Everyone wore suits to mass.
3. Another NO parish I attended growing up in the Archdiocese of Arlington, VA, used Gregorian chant regularly. My current NO parish uses Gregorian chant as well. There are also opportunities to attend the latin mass at these very "NO" parishes.
4. Here is the exegesis of that Matthew passage on perfection: www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/be-perfect.
The liturgical reforms created a new rite and impoverished many parts of the Mass. Take the Offertory vs the preparation of the gifts, the traditional Roman Canon vs its current form stripped of signs and gestures, roman canon vs eucharistic prayer II, the impoverishment of the confiteor and allowing it to be replaced by other things and the end of the prayers at the foot of the altar. The NO is valid, licit, sanctifying and disposes the faithful to piety, but it is impoverished nevertheless
Excellent!
Hi Brian, can you do a video on whether Catholics can work on Sundays, a coworker asked me this and not only was I unsure, but the internet also seemed to have different answers, I even read that you can work but you have to go to confession for it which doesn't make sense. Thank You!
Edit: This was great video, the mariachi music always made me uncomfortable at mass, like it wasn't as special.
I wonder how we Cebuanos would be able to do this. We have a long and unhappy history of colonization which actually kept us from being proper Catholics, because we could not understand the liturgy in Latin.
Is it possible for the traditional mass to be said in the local language? I believe this would be crucial for Cebuanos.
I understand what you're on about, with the fact that popular genres can't appeal Universally, but that same argument could be made for music such as Gregorian chant, even if it is designed and set apart from the liturgy.
Nothing will appeal to everyone. That's conceded. Gregorian chant, other forms of chant, and valid sacred music, aren't meant to be appealing in the sense of entertaining or amusing. Popular music is meant to be that. So if it isn't universally appealing, then it is, by its nature, failing in an ontological way. Sacred music is not when it fails to appeal. Instead, it invites us to be conformed to it so that we can learn to appreciate the beauty in it. In the same way, truth doesn't appeal to everyone. That doesn't mean we go and try to find our own truth; one that appeals to us. No, we try to conform ourselves to the truth so that it does appeal to us as we learn to flourish within its boundaries.
I'm still amazed I get to share a diocese with you
I gotta say, I absolutely LOVE Gregorian Chant. Neat that the Pope actually praised it the way he did, that's awesome.
I think there are many kinds of music which are uplifting, but I also agree that "pop music" is not really appropriate for church, and certainly not for the extremely ceremonial nature of the Catholic services. It's jarring, it doesn't feel right, and I think it would take away significantly from the spirit intended for such meetings.
Tank you so Much Brian for this very wise video. I have heard someone Who had been ordained as a priest for 3 years, and attended a saint Pius V mass for the first time (...) who got really so appealed that he said that probably if we showed this type of rite to the muslims it would contribute greatly to convert them... And the grégorien chant is made in and for our churches for one purpose...to prepare and help us to unite in the sacrifice of our Savior Jésus Christ: the Eucharist. But saying that, it is also the ritual performed by the priest that is so important and his training to do so in order to disappear to let us feel Jesus come in the host which becomes so difficult these days with all the profane and banalised display.
The problem with Novus Ordo is not that it promotes irreverence, it doesn't.
Instead of saying "worship by doing X, because X is the most reverent" it simply says "worship God in what you believe to be the most reverent way possible, and treat the liturgy with utmost respect."
This doesn't mean to do away with gregorian chants, not by a longshot. But for non european cultures there are styles of music, and actions that are considerent as reverent as gregorian is to europeans. So it may make sense to use them to give glory to God.
Novus Ordo is not meant to take away the reverence of mass, it just gives the whole universal Church the freedom to express that reverence in ways that are culturally meaningful and relevant in accordance with local beliefs and customs. Sadly a lot of parishes mistook this freedom for freedom to half-ass liturgy but that is not what it is meant to be ! The message of Novus Ordo isn't "do away with reverence and with your traditions" but rather : "All that you consider reverence, all that you consider glory, and all that you consider honour, offer all of it to God through the liturgy used in worship !" And so, we are not called to offer up mediocrity or profaneness. But what music, prayers and attitude we hold in highest regard and we consider worthiest of Him, in hopes that He may find our sacrifice worthy.
As a european myself I LOVE gregorian chants, but there is also a lot of more recent classical sacred music that I think lifts prayers and gives just as much glory to God. Not pop music, but music that is written specifically with the purposed of giving glory and reverence to God, highlighting His greatness, and strengthening our prayers.
I mean this is all just my opinion. I don't feel a specific need to practice the TLM rather than the NO but I most certainly want every mass I attend, regardless of rite, to not settle for mediocrity and instead try to be the best worship we can offer to God.
Hopefully the whole Church can some day soon agree on the prime importance of reverence at the very least.
Hey, we get it. No condemnation. There are those who focus on worship but only play guitars... Finger plucking and Gregorian harmonies. There are those who can bridge the gap... It is not one or the other. We all have our crosses.
It's funny, actually the protestant converts have moved the southern Baptist music in our catholic church and it went from go tell it on the mountain to boogie woogie, and I don't prefer amazing grace at Easter and Christmas. It actually caused me to quit going to church. I told one of the choir ladies when I go to the catholic mass I want to hear catholic music a d I don't want to see and hear people clapping their hands and kicking up their feet yelling woo yea yea that is not holy that is not the catholic church and she proceeded to tell me that David danced for the lord, I said actually that verse is Greek and it literally translates to jump not dance oh she got within inches of my face leaning in and raising her voice with contempt and malice, but imagine how I felt through years of watching our holy mass deteriorate fist the Latin then the gregorian chant then the mass itself and now even the music is gone. When protestants have turned the mass protestant its no longer catholic and I'm not being hateful but um sick and fed up with accommodating protestants so they feel welcome, so why did they leave the Baptist, or the gospel or zion or whatever church they left if they are turning our catholic church into the church they left????? The music is part of the mass may not be the liturgy but it was part of the mass
Totally agree with you
I don't have an issue with bringing some of the modern forms of music into the Church, as long as its Not distracting from my time with God. It shouldn't be tasteless, cheap, raunchy, noisy, etc. Should be music that God would appreciate ultimately.
I appreciate what you're saying, however isnt it implied that TLM is the only way? I'm not sure how that would help the divide in the church....
I don't see how it would. The new mass is supposed to use chant. In fact, if it was done according to the official instructions, it would be virtually the same as the TLM, but with some slight variations.
@@BrianHoldsworth thanks for the reply. I'm one of 'those' worship ministers and I know our music has reached people in ways that typical (not gregorian) church music has not. I would actually love to incorporate latin mass parts. I'm also attending TLM and def understand the draw, although I'm not sure it should be the only option. I once asked a priest how to learn the chant for TLM and if I could start with the more basic ones so we could have more high Masses. He replied don't bother since that stuff is elementary and not suitable for TLM. 😔
Very simple. For the Roman Rite, use its native sung prayer: Gregorian Chant.
@BVale Talking of copyright, this can still apply to the printed sheet music even if the music itself is in the Public Domain. Please don't photocopy sheets or books which are copyright eg current Solemnes editions - it is the monks' livelihood. There is plenty of copyright-free chant and other liturgical music online. The quality can be a bit grungy, though.
@GospelSimplicity
I think I partly disagree. I love traditional church music, namely organ and choir. But I think the point of church music is to rejoice in the Lord, and it seems that the best way to do that is to sing emotionally and triumphantly. I’m not saying that one cannot find joy in Gregorian chants, but I do think that as long as the music is faithful to the Bible, is not explicitly profane, and does well to inspire the congregation’s love of God, it is music worthy of performance in worship.
While I agree with your comment on it's own, the context of this video is specifically what is best _for Mass._
This argument, though sound, should be directed at bishops and those they choose to be in charge of the liturgy in their diocese. Appealing to the common Catholics in the pews can not resolve this problem.
I usually agree with you Brian, but I only partially agree. Agree: We should select any music as appropriate to the liturgical celebration. The content and tone should be considered. However, I don't think that automatically excludes any genre. Every music genre, including Gregorian Chant, was innovative at some time. If your going to have a guitar mass, set it aside, announce it and let those who find it to enhance their faith go to it. As long as content is appropriate, it does not do dishonor or divide the body. And this is from someone who personally would avoid a guitar mass.
Gregorian chant was around 3000 years ago and was not an innovation even then. _Sacrosanctum Concilium_ sets out the guidelines. Catholics should stick to them. Unfortunately, when the attempt is made, the liturgy becomes a cause of dissent.
@@rickmiller2042 There has been a lot of work done on this subject, notably by the late Dr Mary Berry. Gregorian chant tones were discovered to be in use by Yemeni Jews who had been isolated for at least 2000 years. The original music of the Roman Church was similar to Byzantine music and is known as Old Roman. It was re-worked around the 9th century by the monks of Charlemagne's empire, and that is the Gregorian chant we still have. It was simplified around the 10th century when the stave system of notation was introduced. Byzantine music is still used in the Greek church and to a lesser extent in the Russian and Serbian churches. There is also the music of the Coptic church which is thought to be that of ancient Egypt. Characteristically it is modal and melismatic, as is Jewish liturgical music.
Guitar amplification was not practicable until affordable, quiet and non-distorting transistorised power amplifiers were available. When SC was written, typical audio output valves (tubes) were would not produce enough power - you would have to spend a lot of money to get 25 watts which would be lost in a church. Also valve amplifiers should not be moved around as they are easily damaged - the glass valves are fragile and printed circuits had only just come into use. It would not have occurred to anyone that guitars might be used in the liturgy so of course they were not excluded.
The liturgy is "received" and should not be catering for different "tastes". It then ends up as a source of division and conflict, which is the last thing that is needed. The devil smiles.
@@rickmiller2042 The liturgy was spread by the apostles. Who else? The Mass, in particular, the Liturgy of St James, is modelled on the Jewish temple liturgy. The instructions in SC are as clear as they could be. It doesn't say that other instruments or electronic devices not yet heard of should not be used. If you don't want to have to listen to guitar masses and music by Bernadette Farrell or Paul Inwood, or Luther or Cruger, or Neander, then you have to make sure the masses are silent, which can never be guaranteed. If you come out of mass feeling angry, what was the point of going?
The problem now is that the can of worms is open.
@@rickmiller2042 Gregorian chant is much, much older than the Christian church, though it was revised around 800 AD to approximately its present form. Some of what we think of as Gregorian mass chants are used in Jewish synagogue services. This has been well researched.
The original liturgy was in Aramaic, which is still used in some of the eastern churches. Then it was adapted to Greek in the Greek speaking world. Then Latin was adopted in _those parts of the church_ which came under the jurisdiction of the Patriarch of the West, ie the Pope. There were several reasons for this. One was practical, as the services were much the same everywhere and priests could be sent anywhere. The introduction of compulsory priestly celibacy was for the same reason. The second reason for Latin was that the Pope claimed to be the supreme head of the one Christian church throughout the world and the standardisation of the liturgy was a mark of this unity. But this is well known. Why are you asking me?
Thus, the use of Latin was both a means of maintaining the unity of the Christian church and a sign of its Catholicity, ie universality. By giving up Latin, the unity of the Catholic church was weakened and the Catholic church effectively gave up its claim to being One Church. As you have pointed out, Latin versus vernacular is a point of division and friction. It can be much worse in places where there are different nationalities in the parish. In the local Catholic parish where I live, there are Masses in about ten different languages from Arabic to Spanish and Togaluk, plus Latin. It does not make for a happy united parish.
The reform of the liturgy is an important reason, for the decline of the Catholic church in the past 40 years. The change to the vernacular was in itself particularly damaging for the Latin Rite Catholic church. This was made worse by poor translation. On top of that was the banal music. The damage was compounded by changes like communion in the hand, abandoning the reception of communion while kneeling, the removal of communion rails and other changes in church architecture, and the practice of celebrating Mass facing the people.
Liturgical changes have been a destroyer of faith, just as they were, intentionally, at the Reformation. They are not the only thing, of course. The Vatican 2 Fathers were warned not to make these changes at the time but they went ahead regardless. Personally, I see no way back. Add in the mismanagement from the Vatican and it looks as if it will be finished in another generation - it has been a sort of assisted suicide.
@@rickmiller2042 I see that you edited out most of what you said. It is undisputed that the Liturgy was spread by the Apostles. It was closely modelled on the Temple Liturgy. All the early Christians were Jews. The Sacrifice of the Mass supersedes the Temple Sacrifice but the structure of the service is exactly the same. If you go to a Jewish synagogue you will find that it is the same today. The early Church used the vernacular ie Aramaic or Greek. These languages are still in use. There was also a Liturgy in Gothic, and later came a Liturgy in Slavonic which is still widespread including in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. There can therefore be no objection in principle to the use of this vernacular.
However, the Latin Rite Catholic Church adopted Latin early on, for particular reasons, and the change to vernacular has been endlessly problematic. A change to vernacular was considered at the Council of Trent in the 1500s, but the idea was dropped. Given the amount of travel and migration in the past century, the arguments for staying with Latin were stronger in 1960 than they were 400 years before.
St Ephraim is the father of liturgical music, and he rewrote lyrics of popular tunes the Arians had used.
I love Gregorian Chant, but I feel like there’s something to be said for 20th or 21st century music written for Catholic mass in the local language. Tell me you haven’t felt moved while hearing the choir sing the Prayer of St. Francis after receiving the Eucharist, or that you haven’t felt inspired to go out and evangelize when the accompaniment stops and the whole congregation sings the chorus of a song like Canticle of the Turning a cappella after the dismissal. Gregorian Chant is the gold standard, but when done right, I think modern music can serve a similar purpose. It can draw attention to the gravity and sacredness of the mass, and move the hearts of those contemplating their faith.
For every person that finds those songs inspiring, there is someone who finds them annoying. So that can't be the solution. We can't choose music based on the potential for it to appeal to some people. That's why musical genres exist. We need to transcend beyond that trap and simply sing the prayers of the mass. That's what chant is. It's not a genre or style of music. It's a way of singing the prayers. Singing songs at mass is not what we're supposed to be doing and has never been the tradition of the Church.
Brian Holdsworth Singing hymns instead of propers is certainly not ideal, but I fail to see an issue with singing them alongside the propers (as long as they are good hymns, which many modern ones, unfortunately, are not).
@@andrewburch3694 That's a bit of a different topic. It's much worse than "not ideal". According to the council who wrote the new mass, replacing propers with hymns is depriving the faithful of their rights and forbidden. I don't think that hymns are inadmissible, altogether, though.
Brian Holdsworth Agreed. “Not ideal” is putting it lightly. It wasn’t an unknown phenomenon before the liturgical reform, but at least in those times the priest would read the propers quietly at the altar. In the Novus Ordo, they’re often omitted entirely.
@@BrianHoldsworth "For every person that finds those songs inspiring, there is someone who finds them annoying" applies to Gregorian Chant just as well, unfortunately. Gregorian Chant may be the best, but there is evidence in the bible that instruments -- many different types -- may be used. The best example is Psalm 150 which states in part:
Praise him with trumpet sound;
praise him with lute and harp!
Praise him with tambourine and dance;
praise him with strings and pipe!
Praise him with clanging cymbals;
praise him with loud clashing cymbals!
I believe we must take into account intent. If our sole intent with our music, in whatever form or style, is to praise God, then it is not profane. When allow other reasons such as to draw younger people into mass, we start slipping.
Amen! You nailed it. (And I have actually left a church years ago because the they threw out their a capella hymnals and "modernized" their songs and went to a guitar band format -- that music was SO un-edifying (I would go so far as to call it spiritually disturbing)!
Thanks for finally, and I might add, satisfactorily explaining that parable . I had always taken it to mean our Bible bookstore was in grave danger of Gods wrath. That’s the way I feel when I hear CCM in any setting. It’s just bad music, as well as profane.
Just wondering what anyone thinks of the concept that: as the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, is music as well? Mozart’s Ave Vernum Corpus, Vivaldi’s Gloria, and, of course Gregorian chant had to have been a download from heaven. Hence the perfect beauty that is timeless.
I too got sucked into CCM... (would that qualify as a mortal sin since is made Jesus so mad)...several years ago. I love traditional hymns because they are not profane as well. But I think the reason chants are more Holy is because there is no meter or cadence.....”timeless” like heaven.
Love your insights....except for the ones concerning Vatican II. You don’t think there is a connection between CCM and Vatican II? Seriously?
What exact song is playing in the background at the end?
I am always distracted by the guitar solo or notes of the instruments.
You refer to the profane. Interesting that the word is derived from pro fanum. Fanum being Latin for temple and the lands around it. Profane then means in front of, or outside of, the temple and the lands around it.
Can you please share the title of the song that always plays at the beginning of your videos?
See the link in the description.
@@BrianHoldsworth but it's just a link to the artist. I've looked through his stuff and I can't find this song
Edit: nevermind, it's Introit: The Love of God for anyone who's interested.
Have you read "Chanting the Psalms" by Cyinthia Bourgeault? Or "How the Choir Converted the World" by Mark Aquillina?
What is the name of the psalm you used in the intro and ending?
Although I love the TLM, Gregorian chant or traditional Catholic hymns it simply isn't for everyone. I've been to charismatic healing Masses that contained contemporary worship music which were very good and people were on fire for the Lord. I think we need to stay open to the leading of the Holy spirit rather than demanding things be one way or the other. Just my two cents. God Bless.
As an african I agree with you! Everything is right in this video, but each culture should be allowed to develop its form of sacred music; It is possible and it's been done. The main thing is it must be suitable for the sacred liturgy and prayer and interiority. You can accomplish this with organ, but also with african drums, with other instruments like the Kora or the piano who can be played in a celestial way.
Well said! Brian, can you do a video on the merit of contemporary music to lead us to or lead us away from God?
Yes, liturgical music should be sacred, set apart, not used for purposes other than worship. It is an aid to get us in the worshipping frame of mind.
Chant is the oldest and most tried-and-true sacred genre, but not the only one. Hymns are also separate, sacred. Maybe the instrumentation doesn't matter so much as the reverent and sober tone.