Thanks to everyone who came to the premiere, I think we maxed out at around 150 people which is awesome. And there were a couple "misses" in this video. One thing is that Cedar Point's population center should consider the Detroit metro area, and the other is that Cedar Fair very recently purchased the land that Great America sits on so its no longer leased
As a Carolina native, I wanted to chime in about Carowinds - it's literally the only thing to do in all of North and South Carolina. It's practically cultural at this point - talk to anyone who grew up from those two states and it's clear that Carowinds is an enshrined part of the summer experience. If you wanna go somewhere and have fun for a day, Carowinds is basically your only choice. I've met many people waking up at 5AM and driving 5 hours from where they live in the furthest reaches of NC to get down to Carowinds for the day. It's status as a basically undisputed monopoly on the 15 million people in those two states probably helps its case, in addition to Charlotte's massive growth.
Carrowinds is an amazing park. KI is our home park. I wish they had some more wooden coasters though, but the place is a Mecca of steel coasters. We really enjoyed it both times we visited. I rode my first Gigga there at Night. Wow what ride that is!
Best field trip, hands down. We went in middle school for a band competition, it was a rite of passage for sure. I think I rode Top Gun when I was there (1999 I think)
To be fair, Knott's is the most popular park in the chain. It just can't grow any bigger without some drastic changes like expanding into its parking lot. Canada's Wonderland would need to do the same to expand, but it at least has some mediocre rides that could be refurbished or replaced to make it better.
I’m close to Detroit but I went to Michigan’s Adventure for YEARS before I ever went to Cedar Point. I’m a huge adrenaline junky so of course I wanted to go to Cedar Point, but my family all hate thrill rides, so we never went. I’ve only ever been to Cedar Point 3 times, once with my best friends family, and twice for a school trip. I’ve been to Michigan’s Adventure more times than I can count, and I have so much nostalgia from it. I know it sucks but I can’t bring myself to hate it!
As someone who has family who lives near Detroit (Ann Arbor), this is 100% accurate. My aunt and uncle go to Cedar Point yearly, and yet have never been to Michigans Adventures once in their lives.
i had never even heard of michigan's adventure until recently by doing research for a huge amusement park trip I wanna do eventually starting with visiting every cedar fair park and I live in Indiana so there is no reason why I shouldn't have heard of it. it's also about equal distance of driving for me to go to Cedar Point and Kings Island because I'm in the middle of those two parks, but MA isn't that much farther tbh
Something interesting to note about Valleyfair’s property is that while only 58% of the land owned has been developed, a vast majority of that remaining land sits in flood zones from the nearby river. Everything past the western access road berm, specifically where Excalibur and Thunder Canyon lie, is sometimes under up to a few feet of water depending on the season and year. So while Cedar Fair might own a lot more land, not all of it is necessarily developable, which is a shame. It feels like their only option for a major new coaster is to replace one of the existing ones.
Another issue is the nearby airport which restricts ride heights to 275 feet. The Power Tower had to cut down its height from the original plans because of that restriction.
I'm surprised that when you listed Cedar Point's geographical metro area you left out Toledo, Detroit, and Windsor. I've been a pass holder since 1995, and I can tell you that when you go there in the late summer and fall, you'll see about as many Michigan shirts as you will Ohio State, and tons of Ontario license plates. The Detroit/Toledo area is an important part of their "local" draw. People heading out just for a day will make that drive and back. Been doing it for years.
@@racingphotographer8251 this is true. Standing in line for many of these rides I've conversed with many a Maple Leafs or Blue Jays fan about where they were from and the parks they've been to.
also Fort Wayne, IN. i'm located equally distanced to both CP and KI. i grew up going to KI every year until I was finally tall enough to go to CP and would consider that my homepark now. never been to Holiday world bc it is over 4 and a half hours from me. CP & KI are roughly 2 and a half hour drives
•Kings Island ~"I like the way you think, Blandy! But it's gonna take a lot more than a suitcase of cash to buy the Krusty Krab from me." ~"Oh, there's a lot more than that. The rest is over there. (Boat full of briefcases)" •Canada's Wonderland ~"I'm crossing over to the _Dark_ Side! (Half of the Krusty Krab is dark)" ~"Why should I waste money lighting the whole store?" •Carowinds ~"What's worker's compensation?" ~"You know, when you get paid for sitting at home!" ~"(Jolts up) You mean, _I_ can get paid while I'm at home?" ~"Yeah; what do you think compensation stands for?" •California's Great America ~"There's just one thing I don't understand." ~"What's that, laddie?" _~"That._ (Two Patricks laughing)" •Kings Dominion ~"I'm done with my shift, Mr. Krabs! And let me just say, there will come a day when I will make _something_ of my life, and I will never have to set foot in this grease trap _again!_ (Audience cheering in the background)" ~"Yeah, we'll see you after your lunch break, Squidward." •Knott's Berry Farm ~"SpongeBob, _why_ is my house filled with photos of your dumb junk!?" ~"Oh, I forgot to tell you. I took so many pictures, I ran out of room in my house." •Dorney Park ~"Ah, what am I worried about? I've got plenty of friends! I can name _three_ right off the bat! Uh... (Draws faces on three fingers) The gang's all here!" •Worlds of Fun ~"What a majestic view!" ~"What view?" ~"Oh, yeah! I forgot about your blindfold. (Removes blindfold; on a hot air balloon) Isn't it beautiful?" _~"Very_ nice..." •Valleyfair ~"Hey, what about me? Can I get fired, too?" ~"I'm afraid not, Squidward! You've got seniority." ~"Oh, yeah..." •Michigan's Adventure ~"Give me a raise, or I'm quitting!" ~"A... raise? Hm. (Scrolls book) That's not in my Hiptionary. Help me get with it, Jack." ~"Stop talking like that!" ~"(Rips off hair) These sideburns aren't real." ~"I _need_ more money in my paycheck at the end of every week; _capiche!?_ (Silence; Mr. Krabs laughs hysterically)" •Gilroy Gardens ~"The _Mitten!_ (Coughs) I mean... The Mitten." ~"That ride's for _babies."_ ~"Yeah. Let's ride it just to see how _babified_ it is!" •Geauga Lake ~"Close Glove World!? Has the world gone _mad!?"_ ~"Well... that depends on your definition."
As a someone from Michigan, I consider Cedar Point my home park. A lot of my family used to go to Michigan’s Adventure often, but I’ve never even been.
I like to say I have two home parks because my family used to go to MA every year. That tradition slowly faded away and now we go to Cedar Point which is closer
@@toebel How long has Michigan Adventures been around? I grew up in the Grand Rapids area, but haven't lived there in thirty odd years, and don't recall hearing of that.
Thank you! And youre right about Dorney being close to the population center in Jersey as well as Philly, but that actually bolsters my point that Dorney has a pretty decent population center to draw from if they saw it was worth going to
Fun fact, my friend and her husband are the family who sold Dorney park to cedar fair. Her family started Dorney, she grew up working in the park. They sold the park because their son had a life threatening illness. They wanted to retire so they could enjoy the rest of his life together. He sadly died about 8 years ago. Great family
I love your channel please don’t quit because your not “big” I love how your super calm in all your videos and I can really tell that you love being an enthusiast!!
Dorney’s situation makes me sad. I went to college near there and it’s my most visited park. And now all they’re getting for 2020 is a water complex renovation!
It’s a joke. There was all this talk last year that a new coaster was on the way. All fake news. Good thing there is GA and HP. Both are getting new coasters next year so DP will die on the vine.
It is sad. Especially since Dorney is near Six Flags Great Adventure and Hersheypark, which have expanded beyond expectations. You would think Dorney would follow in their footsteps but nope.
Dorney Park has the oldest Wooden Coaster on the east coast Thunderhawk. The wildwater Kingdom side needed investment the water slide system being replaced was installed in the 80's by the last owner. It needed to be upgraded. The original wave pool was the first of its kind in the east coast.
Knott's has an asterisk next to it as it's open 363 or 364 days per year. Their average attendance per operating day falls behind the two Ohio CF parks
@Quick Caliber Since I live 15 minutes down the freeway from Kings Island, I have a platinum pass and did a driving trip to toronto to visit Wonderland for Yukon Striker, and what got me was in the morning it wasn't very crowded, but around 11:30 - noon, it suddenly got super crowded on a wednesday... I had gotten to ride what I really wanted, so waiting in line at the point wasn't that much of a issue.
Knotts is my home park and I have very good times there small park but a good balance of rides and some rides can be very compact like ghostrider or xcelerator etc.
@@rarecheeto790 Knott's was my home park too growing up. It's always been fun, but they have better rides under their belt now then they did when I was a kid. I would like to see them explore expansion options, maybe a parking structure, maybe buy and demolish the buena park mall and expand east, i dunno, but i think acquiring some more space is something they should think about.
I was going to say this too. Every coaster enthusiast I have met in Detroit considers Cedar Point their home park. It's about the same travel time as coming from Columbus and adds 4.3 million people to the nearby population centers.
Glad to see Carowinds in the "haves." CF has done a lot of work to turn a pretty lame park into a legit amusment park. It's so much better than it was under Paramount. It has the little quirk of half the park being in NC and half in SC, and the coasters CF has put in are all very good.
With the smaller parks, at least world's of fun, I'd rather just cedar Fair drop/sell the park and bring it back to local operators. Kentucky Kingdom shows it can be done
This is seriously becoming one of my favorite channels. These videos about the current snd historic macroeconomics/macromanagement of chains us super interesting.
Carowinds draws from Columbia and Greenville-Spartanburg, SC, as well as Winston-Salem, Greensboro, and splits Raleigh and Durham with King’s Dominion. All of these metro areas are booming!
I think he only mentioned Charlotte because that market is a given for Carowinds. Those to the west could go to Dollywood or those to the south could go to SFoG, while those in the north could go to BGW or KD. I'd say with all their investments there it makes alot of people more willing to drive to Carowinds but they share a 50/50 shot in the outlying markets with the parks mentioned.
Most of the Cedar Fair target population (middle class with disposable income) live to the west and south of the Raleigh-Durham area (Cary, Apex, Holly Springs, Pittsboro, etc.). Additionally driving past Richmond, VA from NC is a pain in the *** (I drive it about once a month). As such, Carowinds has a much more than 50% of the market in that area. Dollywood is closer for western NC, but western NC is sparsely populated, so there isn't much of a market in that area. Having lived in South Carolina, people as far as Charleston also are drawn to Carowinds, given that there really are no other parks of any significance that service South Carolina. With these factors in mind, probably 75% of the population of North Carolina and 85%+ of the population of South Carolina are in the market of Carowinds (about 8 million) would probably look at Carowinds as the closest park. And that doesn't include those from northern GA who would travel to Carowinds rather than going to Six Flags.
Yeah I don't understand why he didn't include the Atlanta Metro area. Sure we have Six Flags but everyone I know in this area makes day trips to Carowinds all of the time. I'm also very confused why he said it was the only major park within a 4 hour drive of Charlotte when both Six Flags Over Georgia and Dollywood take under 4 hours to reach from the metro area...
I actually thought that even though Michigan’s Adventure has the lowest attendance in the chain, it still offers one of the largest profit margins for Cedar Fair somehow. Even so, I don’t see much reason for expansion. Also, I want to compliment you on this video. It makes me so happy that someone actually takes nearby metro populations into account (this also sort of appeals to my geography nerd side). But yeah, it’s so important to pay mind to major population centers around a theme park. That’s the kind of research I really like to hear about in regards to theme parks!
Despite the low contribution to the overal revenue, the park is apparently profitable for the chain so yeah as long as that's the case I'm sure they are content where they are with MA
It’s probably because they have a monopoly atleast on that part of Michigan. So the few people that are there have no choice and cedar fair has to do little to no work.
@@brianmcfeely9038 Since Cedar Fair no longer publicly shares its attendance numbers, I won't give any specific digits, but I worked in a job at a Cedar Fair park that allowed me to see attendance numbers across the chain for the last two decades, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that Michigan's Adventure does not get anywhere near 1.2 million visitors. In fact, Cedar Point Shores alone gets more visitors than Michigan's Adventure in most years. This was true before the pandemic, and it continues to be true today. I can also say that Cedar Point draws a deceptively large number of its guests from the Detroit metro area, and from the company's perspective, expanding Michigan's Adventure would just take business away from Cedar Point, where people are willing to spend more money. As sad as it made me to realize this, parks don't just "earn" a roller coaster by existing for a number of years; it is entirely based off of attendance and profit numbers, and Michigan's Adventure just does not pull in the crowds to justify any substantial investment. Unless later studies reveal that both CP and MA can expand without fighting with each other's markets, CP will always win, and MA will always lose in this regard. At best, they will get relocated coasters and kiddie rides.
Valley fair needs new coasters. I haven't been their since 2007 and I was floored when I found out they still haven't added anything new coasters. The water park is fun and all and it's has other shit todo but it badly needs a brand new coaster.
let's be honest, it draws in people from Canada, Iowa, Wisconsin and the Dakotas as well - probably more. It's just a shame that those attendance numbers aren't a bit higher - but part of that is due to no new rides; and nobody, I repeat nobody I know wanted them to kill the Log Flume, Hydroblaster, the IMAX theater etc and put in that damn wave pool (and the astonishingly rough texture on the concrete all around it - got bad blisters just walking in that area) where they did. That was really poor planning. If the Flume was getting a wee bit old, tear it down and replace it with a newer model of flume with a higher riders/hour number and problem solved (they never did properly support that ride, despite it being one of the most fun of all for little kids and those too afraid to ride "coasters"). But to tear down that whole section of the park for tanning chairs? D'oh!!! Don't blame Valleyfair for poor attendance, blame whoever forgot we already have 10,000+ lakes and not enough hot days to keep that new monstrosity packed. The old tube rides were a lot of fun, and adding a few more could have been nice, but that whole new area screams of trying to sell overpriced food "brought right to your cabana" that was cold by the time it arrived since they don't even cook it there. Not a good business model, and no surprise the attendance numbers are down.
One thing to factor in for Michigan's Adventure is that, besides Cedar Point down in Ohio, it's the only amusement park within a 'day trip' driving distance for most of Michigan. So while Grand Rapids might be the only close city to it, there are actually several million people who have the choice of "Michigan's Adventure" or "two-day trip somewhere". Cedar Fair could probably make money if they just invested a bit in the park, because for many people from Michigan it's the only amusement park they might get to visit yearly.
I agree with your comment. Grand Rapids alone has 1.5 million people, but there are likely 3 million people or more within a 2 hour drive from the park, especially cities in southern Michigan, and only 3 or 4 hours to Chicago and Detroit or likely 10 million people. The fact of the matter is that Cedar Fair wants all those people to go to Cedar Point, and not Michigan's Adventure. That's why it doesn't change.
Wonderland has what I would say the second highest metro area. It draws toronto and the gta, Hamilton Niagara Windsor London, the golden Horseshoe, Kingston and possibly Ottawa. They only have to compete with Montreal's La Ronde which I still see more people traveling 7 hours from Montreal to this park.
Carowinds’ growth is the most impressive to me looking at the investments from 2010-present. Easily $100 million. A few years ago CF execs said they wanted it to be the Cedar Point of the South, so I’m sure they aren’t done. Plus they have the space.
Carowinds Phase 1 starting with Fury 2015 thru 2018 was 50M...Phase 2 started with 2019 Copperhead,the new themed area which will be built out & the hotel...another 50M. Cedar Fair is thrilled with Carowinds growth & phase 1 was beyond their initial expected growth goals. Carowinds like Wonderland is in a phased development plan & they will continue investing at these levels as long as they keep meeting or exceeding their ROI goals.
As was pointed out in the video, Charlotte is the fastest growing metro area in the country and it’s demographics are young. That is why Cedar Fair is investing so much in it. They would be dumb not to.
Building Carowinds up this much is a real thorn in the side of Six Flags over Georgia and Dollywood as well. The most visited National Park in the country is less than half a day from Charlotte as well (Great Smoky Mountains NP). And Asheville and Greenville Spartanburg have been on a huge growth spurt as well. Asheville is a close to halfway between Dollywood and Charlotte and Greenville/Spartanburg is about halfway between Atlanta and Charlotte. That's a lot of market to compete in so the way things are going you have to bring your A game or become irrelevant. And parking decks are going to be the answer to all of these land development/space issues. If you can't spread out you have to go vertical!
I never knew Cedar Fair owned Dorney Park. I'm going to Dorney next week, and I am looking forward to it. I've been plenty of times and it has always been fun. With prices lower than their local competitors while still maintaining high quality rides Dorney Park is a great stop for your summer fun. High velocity coasters like Steel Force and Talon are sure to excite the thrill seekers. Constrictor and Aqua Blast are great for those who want to slide around and get wet. And for the more laid back crowd check out a Cabana and relax by the Wave Pool. Whatever kind of adventurer you are Dorney Park is the place to be.
I've been to Kings island Cedar point and Carowinds. Cedar Fair spoils us man. We have some good coasters in Ohio. Glad to call Norwalk and Sandusky Home
I think the reason Cedar Fair invests so heavily in Carowinds is because it's essentially the only theme park in either state (NC/SC), and while their are close-ish alternatives, such as King's Dominion and Dollywood, most in the Carolina's still prefer and will travel to Carowinds. Meaning the actual population that Carowinds serves is closer to 15 million. I could easily see Carowinds becoming one of the most profitable and attended in the chain within 10-15 years.
Dorney has a Allentown water subplant o site next to steel force underground were Dinosaurs alive was that's why no major rides can go there can't dig supports. Portable flats can fit on the site.
Ryan Thompson IKR like Cedar Point only has an RMC, Intamin Strata, Intamin Blitz, Intamin Giga, Intamin Impulse, B&M Wing, B&M Floorless, B&M Invert, B&M Dive, Arrow Hyper, and only like 7 other coasters.
Thank you as a Minnesotan valleyfair is it for major theme parks and it's not even that great and I hate it I just wish we could get something here that was actually amazing but sadly that's just the Minnesota way I feel generally bland and uninteresting but harmless
i feel like Valleyfair could have potential as Rochester and Mankato are only 2 hours away. In total those two cities add 500k people. Nearby states like North Dakota and South Dakota have nothing and the many people who get layovers at MSP Airport could spend a day at Valleyfair if there was a big expansion or better advertising. Honestly we need a new expansion in my home park. Im tired of underwhelming flat rides like Delirious. I see potential in Valleyfair but maybe its just me.
@@escminnesota5543 absolutely right - I can't recall them even bothering to do any advertising besides the Halloween deal in recent years. Also, they have a huge ass parking lot, yet still charge for parking... that in itself reduces their profits, as people don't want to pay for parking right before paying to go inside - there's plenty of space in that lot, so them charging to park there is BS. They assume it's to keep people in the park for lunch, but the reality is it makes casual evening visits less likely to happen. I did have the season pass about 15 years ago, and got the parking pass as well, but even that requires you to pay the first time to get in and buy the pass itself. Astonishingly annoying, and not a good business practice. They really need to push the season pass again, and make it so people can casually go for a few hours in the evening; that summer my buddy and I went at least 30 times - I frequently picked him up from work and if either one of us said "hit Wild Thing a few times?" the other generally agreed, and Cedar Fair got some of our money each time, as who can turn down a nice hot pronto pup? :D
My daughter and I love your videos. They are very informative and more analytical than some other coaster enthusiast channels. You offer viewers an informed expert opinion. This year, we have visited parks in all three of the tiers you describe. My daughter just turned 10 and roller coasters have been our favorite father/daughter activity for five years now. We aren’t necessarily credit seekers, but we keep track of every single ride each season (503 rides on 55 coasters so far this year). Your assessments and placing of the Cedar Fair parks is spot on. Thank you for the effort that you put into your channel. As always, we will look forward to your next video. To quote Cedar Point’s former slogan.....Ride on.
It’s nice how much love they’ve been giving Carowinds lately. I hope they’ll do the same for Kong’s Dominion since Busch Gardens is set to ramp up their coaster game.
Carowinds market is infinitely better than KD's. CF has stated about a year ago in conf call the priority investment parks are Knotts, Cedar Point, Wonderland, Carowinds, and CGA. Cedar Fair has at Cedar Point an analyst day Aug where they stated in a slide presentation "The near term priority will be the tourist market in Southern California." So, one could take that to mean the rumored expansion of Ghost Town at Knotts is even more likely than speculated.
In Michigan the majority of the population lives in the Detroit metro area. So we are 2 hours from Cedar Point or 3 hours from Michigan's Adventure. It just doesn't make sense to travel farther for Less.
I wish that Michigan Adventure got more love. I consider Cedar point my home park, I've even done volunteer work there, but Michigan adventure would surely pull in more people from the east side of the state if it actually had good coasters.
As a native of the Charlotte area, Carowinds is one of the few fun things to do in the area that don't involve booze or NASCAR. I didn't like going there as a kid, I always preferred going to the Pavillion down at Myrtle Beach rather than going to Carowinds. Now as an adult though, I love it, cause it's a great place to hang out with friends and listen to people from Ohio complain about the heat.
I think you are mostly correct however you are wrong about Knotts. It’s in the “haves”. The park has a ton of flat parking in 3 adjacent locations. A structure could really help open needed space to expand.
No doubt! I think that for the moment CF has been kind of thinking, if it ain't broke don't fix it. But it's easy enough to slap up a 5 or even 10 story parking deck. The infrastructure cost is minimal compared to building actual rides and buildings. Universal has some impressively sized parking decks in Orlando that work quite well for them.
This is one of the best coaster videos I have ever watched and that is saying something because I almost have watched 2000! You explained everything so well and now it makes sense why cedar fair only invests in some parks. You did so much research and spent so much time making a perfect video. Keep up the good work! And please do one for 6 flags
I live in Louisville. You’re right about how we travel up north to go to King’s Island. It’s a bit of a drive but it’s so much fun! I go for my birthday. As much as I have fond childhood me memories of Kentucky Kingdom and I still enjoy it to this day, it really can’t compare to a spectacle like King’s Island. Some of us even drive as far as Cedar Point but it’s less accessible. Four hours is a long drive, and that’s only one way. You absolutely have to get a hotel unless you only plan to be there are hour or two (and of course no one does that).
KC local here, I think Cedar Fir has been focusing more on Oceans of Fun for the last 8 years as they try to establish themselves as the premier water park and force schlitterbahn out. They've added some flat rides to the WoF side but mostly been upgrading everyhting on the OoF side. We are over due for a new coaster tho, as Mahomes says, KC is on the rise. (Just not as fast as Charelotte)
Airtime Thrills yeah i don’t understand how they were nearly bankrupt a decade ago but SWO and both BG are now on par with CF and SF top tier parks. Quite amazing tbh they played their cards right. I remember rumors of them selling SWO
i live an hour from wonderland and went to michigans adventure this year with my kids. It is definitely a great family park with lots of kids carnival rides throughout. The water park is the best part of the park. Wildcat was the only rough coaster there and we all liked the experience.
Charlotte does have a major metro near it. Raleigh/Durham. Also Greensboro/W-S too. What Carowinds has on it's side is a longer season than Kings Island or Cedar Point. The park can open earlier in the year and run through October basically.
"Lets start with one I think is definitely headed into the haves, and that's California's Great America." *3 years later...* California's Great America announces that they will be closing in at most 11 years. That aged well lol.
As I was watching the video I forgot that this was posted a while ago so when I heard this I almost spit my drink out and was like “buddy you sure about that?”😅
I have noticed a huge uptick in attendance at Carowinds from this year over last year and 2 years ago, they're even adding in more parking and an onsite hotel for next year
It crazy how much different you sound now compared to when you made this video. The great America call doesn't look so good today though now with it be completely strap for possibly a large warehouse
I used to work at Knott's. It's definitely geared more towards families, but I enjoy their rides as they're still thrilling without being as intense as what Magic Mountain offers.
Awesome vid as always! the only thing to correct is the Toronto population stats, as of 2016 the GTA was at 6.4M (there was a HUUUUUGE undercount in the 2016 Canadian census) and the GTA grows about 100-130K per year. Then you have the Golden Horshoe area which is 9.2M+ from Niagara Falls to Toronto, and then the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, where 22-22M Canadians live (out of a country of 37M lol). Their main target, of course, is aimed at people living in the GTA, but they also target these areas and the N.E United States.
The way the US measures metro areas are much more liberal than Canadian measurements. For example the Greater Golden horseshoe area is equivalent in area to the Chicagoland and Washington-Baltimore area and is more populated and should be listed as 2nd on the cedar fairs market list. The other difference is that the Toronto area is rapidly growing unlike most of the US metros in colder climates, which is probably why CF has been investing so heavily into Wonderland.
Another (small) issue for ValleyFair. Its built across the river from a small airport, so rides have a height limit of 275 feet (reached by the Power Tower, who's original desigin called for a 300 ft tower.)
All of these parks are on my list of where to go including Michigan's Adventure (except Valleyfair because that's my home park so not really in a hurry). I think Dorney Park and Valleyfair have plans for a new coaster in the near horizon. With Michigan's Adventure getting the new Camp Snoopy, I think that park is starting to get more attention in the chain. I think Kings Dominion should get some more attention as well for the reasons you just explained earlier and I think it will if they're going to put something where Volcano used to sit. I think it's important to remember that just because some parks may be more successful than others doesn't mean they shouldn't be overlooked.
Glad you looked past the parks themselves in determining this. Carowinds is my home park and the community surrounding it really wants to continue the climb and investment in the area.
Love how the definition of cities being close is so different in the US, like in your terms every city in the UK is local to every theme park in the UK :P
Grew up 40 minutes from Cedar Point, it was our favorite thing to do after school. Because we were so close we would pick a ride or two and just get back in line until close.
Weve been going every year since before the orient was retired. I love this park and I will continue to go but yes it is in dire need of a new coaster. Boomerang is getting old just saying.......
Good video. I consider myself lucky to live within 5 hours of Cedar Point, Kings Island, Kings Dominion, and Carowinds. I have been able to visit all 4 parks this summer and have really turned into an enthusiast. I hope all of these parks can hang on becuase I want to ride them all!
Dorney is my home park. Honestly, I'm okay with not having a new coaster every year. I really wish they had expanded Wild Water Kingdom instead of replacing many of the simpler attractions. I know that's a bit of nostalgia talking, but I really enjoy competing with my friends to see who can muscle their way across the lily pad lagoon first, or suddenly dropping ten feet off the end of a short slide. I think the better-rides-less-often model is a sound plan. Would I be excited to see a high powered, twisting, looping, thriller of a roller coaster? Absolutely, but that would hold me over for a while. Come to think about it, I could really go for a wooden or hybrid coaster. And Hershey is only a sort-of competitor for Philadelphia; it's twice the price and twice as far away. I noticed that you completely ignored the water parks at these locations. Dorney and Wild Water are one ticket, can both be done in a day but are better in two, and are a third the price of doing both Six Flags parks in Jackson. For those of you who couldn't give a darn about beating the heat... it's actually a bonus. Wild Water takes most of the visitor traffic during the day, meaning lines for coasters are short to non-existent. I think the addition of single rider lines would be great, too.
As someone who lives closer to California’s Great America than any other theme/amusement park, it’s nice to see it becoming a better amusement park than it has been in a while😉
Awesome video on the Cedar Fair chain, I also watched your video on the Six Flags chain, I loved the way you explained the population, the revenue and attendance both videos were great!!!
Worlds of Fun is EXTREMELY underrated, we have some great coasters. I think if they’d invest a little more in each of the have not parks the parks would have more attendance. I just ended the video when you said cedar fair does not spread their wealth around. I extremely agree and personally I think that’s a bad business model. The more you put into a park the more attendance you’ll get. They need to get that in their heads or else they could be headed down hill. Heck what do I know I’m just a grouchy park guest who has common sense unlike the leaders of the company. Edit: I should also add that having no A/C during the hot 90 degree summer weather is NOT a good business model to attract guests.
Yeah CF isn't giving small parks that produce little revenue and ebidta much. It's called ROI. They are doing horrible...you might want to look as t their financials. Just reported Great Q2. Compare to SF..the quarter was cramped on by wall street and the stock plummeted after earnings for the 3rd quarter in a row. CF was up 3percent after q2 results. Cf reported great numbers and organic growth were the something SF can't do and are trying to cover it by adding more parks on leases and wall street isn't buying it no matter how much JRA tries to spin it.
Great analysis of Cedar Fair! As an update to your video: Cedar Fair has purchased the land under Great America which will definitely move it up to the "Haves" list. Do you have the available population, attendance and revenue plotted on charts? Can you do the same analysis for Six Flags? It makes you wonder what the fate will be for Michigan Adventures and Worlds of Fun. I suppose they bought out Six Flags Worlds of Adventure (Geauga Lake) to eliminate competition for Cedar Point and Kings Island which was a smart move. It also provided roller coasters that they could distribute to the "have not" theme parks.
Very informative video! I might disagree with your ranking for Knotts, but I understand where you are coming from. This video clearly explains why we should never expect anything "big" for Michigan's Adventure. Great work!
Would you put Knotts in the top tier? I know they definitely get investments other than major thrill rides and they have different objectives than the other parks so you could consider it in the Haves
Almost should be 4 tiers: HAVES" Cedar Point, Carowinds, Kings Island, Canada's Wonderland THE COULD GO EITHER WAY: California Great America, Kings Dominion, & Knott's The HAVE NOTS: Dorney, Worlds of Fun, ValleyFair and THE PLEASE DON'T CLOSE US: Michigan's Adventure.
Under your system CW clearly belongs in the "could go other way" tier. It is clearly not a "have" park in a league with CP, Cwinds, or KI. It's the weakest link among those 4.
@@racingphotographer8251 given their massive additions on the 3-5 year timetable, I dont see why this park is 2nd tier. Just because Cedar Fair didnt start with much doesnt diminish what theyve added recently
I'd also add that for West Virginia (a state where our only theme park is Camden Park), that Kings Island is the home park for everyone in the lower 3/5 of the state. Kings island is a 3 hour drive from us and we have season passes. We usually don't get a hotel either. Wake up at 6:00 am and get back home around midnight or so. Cedar Point is definitely more of a destination and is obviously the coaster king, but Kings Island is the perfect family park. Just adding my perspective that people far from these metro areas consider some of these parks as their home park.
I remember going to Michigan's Adventure when I was little. I live around Kalamazoo, and it was much easier to make a trip up there than to go all the way to the more expensive Cedar Point or King's Island. It sucks that MA is the bottom of the list:(
Daniel Peppa-Pig Powers Wouldn't CP be worth the extra distance? It's a several-hour-long drive for the flagship park of CF and the so-called "coaster capital of the world", vs 2 hours or less for what is the worst CF park in every way, according to this video.
@@aggroknight4259 well, CP isn't so family friendly, and it's a *lot* more expensive. Mich Ad is trash, yes, but it's dominated by several family coasters and a surprisingly REALLY good water park. the waterpark is honestly what sells the park.
I'd gone to Valleyfair in 2019 after not going since 2013, and whereas they're not adding that many more rides, they did get an overhaul when it came to non-rides, like having more food areas, updating bathrooms, and getting the Planet Snoopy treatment. They also closed the "Dinosaurs Alive!" attraction, which I never saw that many people use, so maybe they can do something more interesting with that space.
Dorney is very small and really has no room for expansion. It’s also very *old* - it has been around for well over 100 years, and its founders had no idea what the future of amusement parks was going to be. There’s only so much that can be done with it. But those of us who grew up with that as our hometown park love it. 🙂
I wish they would remove the garbage coasters in Wonder Mountain at CW (Thunder Run and Guardian) and put an RMC dark ride in there. Think Disney's Space Mountain on steroids.
@@adventuresinthemeparks6683 the "Have Not" parks like Wonderland get filled up with spinning flat rides. The "haves" like Cedar Point get all the giga coasters.
Knotts has a few dark rides already (Bear-y Tales, Calico Mine Train, Timber Mountain Log Ride), probably to create some synergy with nearby Disneyland, which is almost nothing but dark rides.
Lot's of great information in this video, was fun watching this. Even though Michigan's Adventure is on the bottom I would still like to go there and ride Shivering Timbers, looks real good.
that was a great video!!!!! I am more the "theme park" kinda person as opposed the concrete and steel parks of Six Flags. Great America is my home park and since Marriotts sold it way back in the day its really hasn't had much love so i was shocked to see it in the "on the fence" category, but happy to see it's finally getting some much needed love. Both Great America and Knotts could be great parks but they have the same issue as all parks in California have and that's they are all land locked and surrounded by residential and big business. Dorney is one that i always root for, it's a nice park, in a well populated area, always friendly staff, I would love to see them become a destination park some day. Again thank you for that video i can see how much work you put into it.
I think you nailed it with this video! I totally agree with where you put each of the parks. It is sad for me, since Worlds of Fun is my closest Cedar Fair park, and I think it has great potential. On the flip side, one of the nicest things about WoF is that I don't have to wait in long lines for Prowler & Patriot or the great waterslides. Part of why I liked my day at Michigans Adventure so much is that the lines were very short the whole day.
My teacher grew up in kings island she said she heard what happend on son of beast and she rode it she was actually involved in a accident when the wood thing cracked she wasn’t one of the injured but she was on train 1 2 round when it get e stop and thank you for hearting my comment it made my day
THANK YOU for posting this... finally my park will see it.. and realize we need a coaster!! your right we have gone the longest of any park in the chain with out a coaster.. and our park isn't bad.. we have the space. just give us the invert!! we have been rumoring now for 12 years.. and what people want.. or ANYTHING...
Generally agree with this assesment. I might shift the rankings around somewhat, though. I'd move Kings Island down slightly in the "haves" column since they haven't yet received a giga-coaster and Banshee, despite being a record-breaker, was a relatively safe investment as a Son of Beast replacement. Same goes for Mystic Timbers being a safe addition. I'd definitely move Kings Dominion to the top of the "on-the-fence" column. Yeah, it's true that the SF Bay Area has a much larger population base than western Virginia and Baltimore/Washington, and CGA has less space to work with, but they haven't *yet* received huge investments on par with I-305 and Twisted Timbers. Agree with Knott's being last of the "on-the-fence" parks. Ironically, they have the exact opposite problem of almost every other park in the chain. Knotts will always have high attendance with their year-round ops, central location in SoCal, and appeal to families on a budget, so they're the biggest park in the chain with little incentive to add huge coasters. Hasn't stopped them from adding the best dark ride in the chain, refurbishing the log flume, retracking GhostRider with GCI, and of course adding HangTime. Would not at all be surprised if they're the first Cedar Fair park to add a parking garage, too! That could allow Knotts to move Marketplace across the street and free up space for a park expansion. SoCal could use a great B&M wing coaster! Agree with the "have nots" ranking, assuming Dorney Park is first because they're getting a GCI to replace Invertigo and Dinos Alive. Dorney just hasn't had to add much recently because Hershey's major recent thrill coasters, Fahrenheit and Skyrush, are too intense for Dorney's target market. Same goes for Joker at Great Adventure. The recent family additions at Hershey (plus Candymonium) have probably forced CF to make a GCI at Dorney more of a priority than they'd otherwise prefer. Of the "recent" WoF vs. Valleyfair additions, WoF's are obviously better (yay Timber Wolf retracking), and Valleyfair is at a clear disadvantage having to compete with Nickelodeon Universe being open year-round. Cedar Fair only keeps Michigan's Adventure around to serve lake tourists to Western MI who want a quieter park atmosphere without a dozen thrilling coasters. They've made decent water park investments since they're cheap and compact, but if an RMC Raptor clone is headed to any of the "have nots", it'll almost certainly be Valleyfair! They're m the most desperate for a looping coaster that isn't horrible. And I wouldn't be shocked if Carowinds decided to take out Vortex and Nighthawk for their next major coaster project. A floorless conversion of Vortex would be a good fit for Dorney Park, and they have plenty of space for it. Would be awesome of GCI could build a single-track dueling woodie straddling the Carolina border where Nighthawk and Vortex are! Might happen in the 2023/2024 timeframe. Great video overall. Waiting to get a platinum pass until Dorney, Valleyfair, and WoF each get an extra non-kiddie coaster. Doesn't matter if it's a hand-me-down, but could still be a while.
1st to comment! I would like to see how Cedar Fair decides the fate of attractions at their parks. One of my home parks WAS Knott's Berry Farm. It was a charming park with history. Once they bought the farm in 1997, they started gutting almost everything that gave Knott's its charm. First the Haunted Shack, Sky Jump, Kingdom of the Dinosaurs, Reflection Lake, & recently closing Mystery Lodge after 25 years. They built roller coasters on top of other attractions, trying to turn Knott's into a mini Cedar Point. The only good move was getting rid of the piece of trash Windjammer, for Xcellerator. I have been going to Knott's since the late 70's, and made the Corkscrew my 1st coaster @ 5 years old in 1981. I still miss the Wacky Soap Box Racers, & Knott's Berry Tales, but at least bring back the Haunted Shack. THERE, now I feel better. Hello from Phoenix Arizona.
I remember the Haunted Shack, I had completely forgotten about that. I'm too young to really remember the park pre-CF (I started going in the late 90s) but I did appreciate the things they did for the park right after the purchase (though Ghostrider was already in the works under prior ownership)
Knott's was my home park growing up. Windjammer sucked, and i still miss to this day the Soapbox Racers. I feel like the park fumbled around for a while, but once they built Silver bullet I feel like the park was beginning to find it's footing and at the moment i think it's on a pretty good trajectory namely because the replaced that bumpy Boomerang with Hangtime. Honestly though, they should bring back the sky jump, it was fun to watch inside and outside of the park, also effing terrifying.
Thanks to everyone who came to the premiere, I think we maxed out at around 150 people which is awesome. And there were a couple "misses" in this video. One thing is that Cedar Point's population center should consider the Detroit metro area, and the other is that Cedar Fair very recently purchased the land that Great America sits on so its no longer leased
YAYAYAYAYYAAYYAYAYAYYYYYYYY
Sweet let the crazed expansion begin
You also forgot the consider the Dayton area for Kings Island
The Detroit metro area still exists? I go on Google maps and all I see is abandoned houses and open fields
Canadas Wonderland also draws from the Buffalo-Niagara Falls area that's just across the border though most of it's crowd is from Toronto.
As a Carolina native, I wanted to chime in about Carowinds - it's literally the only thing to do in all of North and South Carolina. It's practically cultural at this point - talk to anyone who grew up from those two states and it's clear that Carowinds is an enshrined part of the summer experience. If you wanna go somewhere and have fun for a day, Carowinds is basically your only choice. I've met many people waking up at 5AM and driving 5 hours from where they live in the furthest reaches of NC to get down to Carowinds for the day. It's status as a basically undisputed monopoly on the 15 million people in those two states probably helps its case, in addition to Charlotte's massive growth.
Ok why can you ride any ride you want 3 times on the 4th of July?? Shhhh
Columbia sc here, this comment is very accurate
Cedar Point is pretty much engraved in the Ohio culture at this point too.
Carrowinds is an amazing park. KI is our home park. I wish they had some more wooden coasters though, but the place is a Mecca of steel coasters. We really enjoyed it both times we visited. I rode my first Gigga there at Night. Wow what ride that is!
Best field trip, hands down. We went in middle school for a band competition, it was a rite of passage for sure. I think I rode Top Gun when I was there (1999 I think)
Imagine cedar fair being called “Valley Point”
That would be weird and work better as a park name
I was literally thinking the same thing lol
PointlessPickle2 Cursed
That basically would make me sense - a valley goes into the ground, yet a point would probably go up
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“When all of your kids are hungry, you don’t feed the favorite”-Coaster Studios
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Skii Animation ?
Skii Animation why are u everywhere
Gtccoasters I’m a bot
WINNERS!: Cedar Point, Kings Island, Canada's Wonderland and Carowinds.
Losers: Everyone else.
Worst loser: Michigan's Adventure.
To be fair, Knott's is the most popular park in the chain. It just can't grow any bigger without some drastic changes like expanding into its parking lot. Canada's Wonderland would need to do the same to expand, but it at least has some mediocre rides that could be refurbished or replaced to make it better.
With a B and M hyper coming to CGA, I think it is a winner. Also, Kings Dominion should be a winner.
Kings Dominion is a have though.
Reilly Walker What about a multi story parking garage?
I’m close to Detroit but I went to Michigan’s Adventure for YEARS before I ever went to Cedar Point. I’m a huge adrenaline junky so of course I wanted to go to Cedar Point, but my family all hate thrill rides, so we never went. I’ve only ever been to Cedar Point 3 times, once with my best friends family, and twice for a school trip. I’ve been to Michigan’s Adventure more times than I can count, and I have so much nostalgia from it. I know it sucks but I can’t bring myself to hate it!
Michigan's Adventure can't even draw from Detroit because they're closer to Cedar Point.
As someone who has family who lives near Detroit (Ann Arbor), this is 100% accurate. My aunt and uncle go to Cedar Point yearly, and yet have never been to Michigans Adventures once in their lives.
i had never even heard of michigan's adventure until recently by doing research for a huge amusement park trip I wanna do eventually starting with visiting every cedar fair park and I live in Indiana so there is no reason why I shouldn't have heard of it. it's also about equal distance of driving for me to go to Cedar Point and Kings Island because I'm in the middle of those two parks, but MA isn't that much farther tbh
@@AshleyChalfant88 its worth going to once because Shivering Timbers is fantastic, other than that there isn't much
Or Chicago either - given the drive involved it's better to go the extra distance to Cedar Point.
@@mikebarnes2294 they also have six flags great America
Something interesting to note about Valleyfair’s property is that while only 58% of the land owned has been developed, a vast majority of that remaining land sits in flood zones from the nearby river. Everything past the western access road berm, specifically where Excalibur and Thunder Canyon lie, is sometimes under up to a few feet of water depending on the season and year.
So while Cedar Fair might own a lot more land, not all of it is necessarily developable, which is a shame. It feels like their only option for a major new coaster is to replace one of the existing ones.
Another issue is the nearby airport which restricts ride heights to 275 feet. The Power Tower had to cut down its height from the original plans because of that restriction.
They could probably do something similar to the way they did excalibur. they designed both excalibur and thunder canyon with flooding in mind
Just kill Excalibur, and replace it with something good
I'm surprised that when you listed Cedar Point's geographical metro area you left out Toledo, Detroit, and Windsor. I've been a pass holder since 1995, and I can tell you that when you go there in the late summer and fall, you'll see about as many Michigan shirts as you will Ohio State, and tons of Ontario license plates. The Detroit/Toledo area is an important part of their "local" draw. People heading out just for a day will make that drive and back. Been doing it for years.
A lot of those Ontario plates at CP are from the Toronto area... tired of the second tier coasters at Canada's Wonderland and SF Darien Lake.
@@racingphotographer8251 this is true. Standing in line for many of these rides I've conversed with many a Maple Leafs or Blue Jays fan about where they were from and the parks they've been to.
@@matthintz9468 These days you're more likely to see them wearing Raptors gear...
Dont forget the Akron canton area
also Fort Wayne, IN. i'm located equally distanced to both CP and KI. i grew up going to KI every year until I was finally tall enough to go to CP and would consider that my homepark now. never been to Holiday world bc it is over 4 and a half hours from me. CP & KI are roughly 2 and a half hour drives
Cedar Fair portrayed by SpongeBob:
Cedar Point-
Patrick: You took my only food; now I’m gonna starve!
XD
Knott’s Berry Farm: Am I a joke to you?
Person Guy yes
Person Guy yes
•Kings Island
~"I like the way you think, Blandy! But it's gonna take a lot more than a suitcase of cash to buy the Krusty Krab from me."
~"Oh, there's a lot more than that. The rest is over there. (Boat full of briefcases)"
•Canada's Wonderland
~"I'm crossing over to the _Dark_ Side! (Half of the Krusty Krab is dark)"
~"Why should I waste money lighting the whole store?"
•Carowinds
~"What's worker's compensation?"
~"You know, when you get paid for sitting at home!"
~"(Jolts up) You mean, _I_ can get paid while I'm at home?"
~"Yeah; what do you think compensation stands for?"
•California's Great America
~"There's just one thing I don't understand."
~"What's that, laddie?"
_~"That._ (Two Patricks laughing)"
•Kings Dominion
~"I'm done with my shift, Mr. Krabs! And let me just say, there will come a day when I will make _something_ of my life, and I will never have to set foot in this grease trap _again!_ (Audience cheering in the background)"
~"Yeah, we'll see you after your lunch break, Squidward."
•Knott's Berry Farm
~"SpongeBob, _why_ is my house filled with photos of your dumb junk!?"
~"Oh, I forgot to tell you. I took so many pictures, I ran out of room in my house."
•Dorney Park
~"Ah, what am I worried about? I've got plenty of friends! I can name _three_ right off the bat! Uh... (Draws faces on three fingers) The gang's all here!"
•Worlds of Fun
~"What a majestic view!"
~"What view?"
~"Oh, yeah! I forgot about your blindfold. (Removes blindfold; on a hot air balloon) Isn't it beautiful?"
_~"Very_ nice..."
•Valleyfair
~"Hey, what about me? Can I get fired, too?"
~"I'm afraid not, Squidward! You've got seniority."
~"Oh, yeah..."
•Michigan's Adventure
~"Give me a raise, or I'm quitting!"
~"A... raise? Hm. (Scrolls book) That's not in my Hiptionary. Help me get with it, Jack."
~"Stop talking like that!"
~"(Rips off hair) These sideburns aren't real."
~"I _need_ more money in my paycheck at the end of every week; _capiche!?_ (Silence; Mr. Krabs laughs hysterically)"
•Gilroy Gardens
~"The _Mitten!_ (Coughs) I mean... The Mitten."
~"That ride's for _babies."_
~"Yeah. Let's ride it just to see how _babified_ it is!"
•Geauga Lake
~"Close Glove World!? Has the world gone _mad!?"_
~"Well... that depends on your definition."
As a someone from Michigan, I consider Cedar Point my home park. A lot of my family used to go to Michigan’s Adventure often, but I’ve never even been.
I grew up in Grand Rapids, used to go about once a year. Trust me, you're not missing out. Cedar Point may as well be my home park
I like to say I have two home parks because my family used to go to MA every year. That tradition slowly faded away and now we go to Cedar Point which is closer
@@toebel How long has Michigan Adventures been around? I grew up in the Grand Rapids area, but haven't lived there in thirty odd years, and don't recall hearing of that.
@@johnmullholand2044 They got their first coaster in '79 but have been around in some form since 1956.
You put a lot of work into your videos. Much appreciated.
Thank you! And youre right about Dorney being close to the population center in Jersey as well as Philly, but that actually bolsters my point that Dorney has a pretty decent population center to draw from if they saw it was worth going to
Stamfordbridge, I was thinking the same thing. Very well organized and thought out videos 👍
Fun fact, my friend and her husband are the family who sold Dorney park to cedar fair. Her family started Dorney, she grew up working in the park. They sold the park because their son had a life threatening illness. They wanted to retire so they could enjoy the rest of his life together. He sadly died about 8 years ago. Great family
I love your channel please don’t quit because your not “big” I love how your super calm in all your videos and I can really tell that you love being an enthusiast!!
This is probably my favorite video of yours yet. You can really tell how much effort went into it. It's great that it's a long video too. Keep it up!
Dorney’s situation makes me sad. I went to college near there and it’s my most visited park. And now all they’re getting for 2020 is a water complex renovation!
It’s a joke. There was all this talk last year that a new coaster was on the way. All fake news. Good thing there is GA and HP. Both are getting new coasters next year so DP will die on the vine.
It is sad. Especially since Dorney is near Six Flags Great Adventure and Hersheypark, which have expanded beyond expectations. You would think Dorney would follow in their footsteps but nope.
Dorney Park has the oldest Wooden Coaster on the east coast Thunderhawk. The wildwater Kingdom side needed investment the water slide system being replaced was installed in the 80's by the last owner. It needed to be upgraded. The original wave pool was the first of its kind in the east coast.
something exciting from gravity group might be heading your way after this pandemic clears up
So I’ve heard.
you know who is winner Michigan adventure
😂
Edward Isom Not Funny Didn’t Laugh. MA is my HP.
Dosware Pictures mine is KD and we’re supposed to be a top tier park but they keep removing our coasters and giving us decade gaps between coasters
Edward Isom Mine also used to be KD. Let’s hope they give good things in the future.
Edward Isom yah mine is KD as well I think it kind of stupid how we don’t get many coasters, but whatever hopefully volcano becomes something
Canada's Wonderland and Knott's Berry Farm are crazy with attendance. Top 2 Cedar Fair parks for attendance :)
Knott's has an asterisk next to it as it's open 363 or 364 days per year. Their average attendance per operating day falls behind the two Ohio CF parks
@Quick Caliber Since I live 15 minutes down the freeway from Kings Island, I have a platinum pass and did a driving trip to toronto to visit Wonderland for Yukon Striker, and what got me was in the morning it wasn't very crowded, but around 11:30 - noon, it suddenly got super crowded on a wednesday... I had gotten to ride what I really wanted, so waiting in line at the point wasn't that much of a issue.
Knotts is my home park and I have very good times there small park but a good balance of rides and some rides can be very compact like ghostrider or xcelerator etc.
@Sam I am so true lol
@@rarecheeto790 Knott's was my home park too growing up. It's always been fun, but they have better rides under their belt now then they did when I was a kid. I would like to see them explore expansion options, maybe a parking structure, maybe buy and demolish the buena park mall and expand east, i dunno, but i think acquiring some more space is something they should think about.
Surprised you didn't include the Detroit metro for cedar point
I was going to say this too. Every coaster enthusiast I have met in Detroit considers Cedar Point their home park. It's about the same travel time as coming from Columbus and adds 4.3 million people to the nearby population centers.
Yep I definitely overlooked Detroit, didnt realize how close it was to Sandusky
Yeah, same. If you ask anyone from Detroit what their home park is, they will always say Cedar Point. It's not far at all.
@@AirtimeThrills I’d say that cedar point also serves the metropolitan areas of Toledo and even Fort Wayne
Glad to see Carowinds in the "haves." CF has done a lot of work to turn a pretty lame park into a legit amusment park. It's so much better than it was under Paramount. It has the little quirk of half the park being in NC and half in SC, and the coasters CF has put in are all very good.
With the smaller parks, at least world's of fun, I'd rather just cedar Fair drop/sell the park and bring it back to local operators. Kentucky Kingdom shows it can be done
Not a bad ideal as World's of Fun was a lot better run, was competitive, and had bigger crowds when the Hunt's owned it....
But not all parks succeed. Elitch Gardens practically died after being released from six flags.
This is seriously becoming one of my favorite channels. These videos about the current snd historic macroeconomics/macromanagement of chains us super interesting.
Agreed.
You also can't go wrong with the intro music. You listening Coaster Fanatics?
Great video. FYI, as of 7/1/2019 Cedar Fair has purchased the land California's Great America sits on for $150 million.
Honestly, if I win the Lottery, definitely would buy that park
I would get rid of grizzly and put a giga in its place. I would put and rmc woodie like joker at sfdk
Yeah, every thing about that park aged like milk
Carowinds draws from Columbia and Greenville-Spartanburg, SC, as well as Winston-Salem, Greensboro, and splits Raleigh and Durham with King’s Dominion. All of these metro areas are booming!
Facts. He only mentioned Charlotte for Carowinds but he mentioned Baltimore which is a 2 hr drive from KD
yeah man. there are apartments and neighborhoods being built EVERYWHERE. kinda sucks cause it makes the traffice much worse
I think he only mentioned Charlotte because that market is a given for Carowinds. Those to the west could go to Dollywood or those to the south could go to SFoG, while those in the north could go to BGW or KD. I'd say with all their investments there it makes alot of people more willing to drive to Carowinds but they share a 50/50 shot in the outlying markets with the parks mentioned.
Most of the Cedar Fair target population (middle class with disposable income) live to the west and south of the Raleigh-Durham area (Cary, Apex, Holly Springs, Pittsboro, etc.). Additionally driving past Richmond, VA from NC is a pain in the *** (I drive it about once a month). As such, Carowinds has a much more than 50% of the market in that area. Dollywood is closer for western NC, but western NC is sparsely populated, so there isn't much of a market in that area. Having lived in South Carolina, people as far as Charleston also are drawn to Carowinds, given that there really are no other parks of any significance that service South Carolina. With these factors in mind, probably 75% of the population of North Carolina and 85%+ of the population of South Carolina are in the market of Carowinds (about 8 million) would probably look at Carowinds as the closest park. And that doesn't include those from northern GA who would travel to Carowinds rather than going to Six Flags.
Yeah I don't understand why he didn't include the Atlanta Metro area. Sure we have Six Flags but everyone I know in this area makes day trips to Carowinds all of the time.
I'm also very confused why he said it was the only major park within a 4 hour drive of Charlotte when both Six Flags Over Georgia and Dollywood take under 4 hours to reach from the metro area...
I actually thought that even though Michigan’s Adventure has the lowest attendance in the chain, it still offers one of the largest profit margins for Cedar Fair somehow. Even so, I don’t see much reason for expansion.
Also, I want to compliment you on this video. It makes me so happy that someone actually takes nearby metro populations into account (this also sort of appeals to my geography nerd side). But yeah, it’s so important to pay mind to major population centers around a theme park. That’s the kind of research I really like to hear about in regards to theme parks!
Despite the low contribution to the overal revenue, the park is apparently profitable for the chain so yeah as long as that's the case I'm sure they are content where they are with MA
Thanks Great Reporting
It’s probably because they have a monopoly atleast on that part of Michigan. So the few people that are there have no choice and cedar fair has to do little to no work.
Michigan's Adventure is listed as getting 1.2 million visitors a year. Could double that if Cedar Fair did anything with it.
@@brianmcfeely9038 Since Cedar Fair no longer publicly shares its attendance numbers, I won't give any specific digits, but I worked in a job at a Cedar Fair park that allowed me to see attendance numbers across the chain for the last two decades, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that Michigan's Adventure does not get anywhere near 1.2 million visitors. In fact, Cedar Point Shores alone gets more visitors than Michigan's Adventure in most years. This was true before the pandemic, and it continues to be true today.
I can also say that Cedar Point draws a deceptively large number of its guests from the Detroit metro area, and from the company's perspective, expanding Michigan's Adventure would just take business away from Cedar Point, where people are willing to spend more money. As sad as it made me to realize this, parks don't just "earn" a roller coaster by existing for a number of years; it is entirely based off of attendance and profit numbers, and Michigan's Adventure just does not pull in the crowds to justify any substantial investment. Unless later studies reveal that both CP and MA can expand without fighting with each other's markets, CP will always win, and MA will always lose in this regard. At best, they will get relocated coasters and kiddie rides.
U should do this with six flags
That would be way too easy. Magic Mountain and Great Adventure top tier, the rest nowhere.
@@racingphotographer8251Actually Great America and Fiesta Texas seem to get more than Great Adventure.
Alan Trotter very true, great America will be better than great adventure if it keeps getting new coasters every 2 or 3 years
@@markmccormick6628 great america already is better, unless gadvs 2020 coaster is some crazy good coaster.
Oohh looks like we already have some controversy. I definitely would put Great America in the top tier of that list
Valleyfair also brings in people from the Duluth and Fargo area
But you're right about the new flat ride growth
Valley fair needs new coasters. I haven't been their since 2007 and I was floored when I found out they still haven't added anything new coasters. The water park is fun and all and it's has other shit todo but it badly needs a brand new coaster.
@@123456789554332 Maybe a B&M wing coaster and some sort of coaster that inverts, from, like, Vekoma or Intamin?
@@hmmyes7807 A Gerstlauer wouldn't be bad either.
let's be honest, it draws in people from Canada, Iowa, Wisconsin and the Dakotas as well - probably more. It's just a shame that those attendance numbers aren't a bit higher - but part of that is due to no new rides; and nobody, I repeat nobody I know wanted them to kill the Log Flume, Hydroblaster, the IMAX theater etc and put in that damn wave pool (and the astonishingly rough texture on the concrete all around it - got bad blisters just walking in that area) where they did. That was really poor planning.
If the Flume was getting a wee bit old, tear it down and replace it with a newer model of flume with a higher riders/hour number and problem solved (they never did properly support that ride, despite it being one of the most fun of all for little kids and those too afraid to ride "coasters"). But to tear down that whole section of the park for tanning chairs? D'oh!!! Don't blame Valleyfair for poor attendance, blame whoever forgot we already have 10,000+ lakes and not enough hot days to keep that new monstrosity packed.
The old tube rides were a lot of fun, and adding a few more could have been nice, but that whole new area screams of trying to sell overpriced food "brought right to your cabana" that was cold by the time it arrived since they don't even cook it there. Not a good business model, and no surprise the attendance numbers are down.
One thing to factor in for Michigan's Adventure is that, besides Cedar Point down in Ohio, it's the only amusement park within a 'day trip' driving distance for most of Michigan. So while Grand Rapids might be the only close city to it, there are actually several million people who have the choice of "Michigan's Adventure" or "two-day trip somewhere". Cedar Fair could probably make money if they just invested a bit in the park, because for many people from Michigan it's the only amusement park they might get to visit yearly.
I agree with your comment. Grand Rapids alone has 1.5 million people, but there are likely 3 million people or more within a 2 hour drive from the park, especially cities in southern Michigan, and only 3 or 4 hours to Chicago and Detroit or likely 10 million people.
The fact of the matter is that Cedar Fair wants all those people to go to Cedar Point, and not Michigan's Adventure. That's why it doesn't change.
Wonderland has what I would say the second highest metro area. It draws toronto and the gta, Hamilton Niagara Windsor London, the golden Horseshoe, Kingston and possibly Ottawa. They only have to compete with Montreal's La Ronde which I still see more people traveling 7 hours from Montreal to this park.
They're also competing against SF Darien Lake which is 2 hours away.
Agreed, the catchment area for wonderland is more like 8-9million people.
La Ronde is a dump that needs a Major renovation. Its dirty and grungy. Line flows are terrible, and layout sucks
@@racingphotographer8251 yeah but darien lake really isn't up to the standards that canada's wonderland is at.
@@racingphotographer8251 Darien lake sucks its basically a camground with one coaster
Carowinds’ growth is the most impressive to me looking at the investments from 2010-present. Easily $100 million. A few years ago CF execs said they wanted it to be the Cedar Point of the South, so I’m sure they aren’t done. Plus they have the space.
Carowinds Phase 1 starting with Fury 2015 thru 2018 was 50M...Phase 2 started with 2019 Copperhead,the new themed area which will be built out & the hotel...another 50M. Cedar Fair is thrilled with Carowinds growth & phase 1 was beyond their initial expected growth goals. Carowinds like Wonderland is in a phased development plan & they will continue investing at these levels as long as they keep meeting or exceeding their ROI goals.
They’ve Used 75% of the land and parking is getting outta control some of that land will have to be used For Parking
As was pointed out in the video, Charlotte is the fastest growing metro area in the country and it’s demographics are young. That is why Cedar Fair is investing so much in it. They would be dumb not to.
@@kevinthompson6986 they have 100 acres of undeveloped land
Building Carowinds up this much is a real thorn in the side of Six Flags over Georgia and Dollywood as well. The most visited National Park in the country is less than half a day from Charlotte as well (Great Smoky Mountains NP). And Asheville and Greenville Spartanburg have been on a huge growth spurt as well. Asheville is a close to halfway between Dollywood and Charlotte and Greenville/Spartanburg is about halfway between Atlanta and Charlotte. That's a lot of market to compete in so the way things are going you have to bring your A game or become irrelevant. And parking decks are going to be the answer to all of these land development/space issues. If you can't spread out you have to go vertical!
I never knew Cedar Fair owned Dorney Park. I'm going to Dorney next week, and I am looking forward to it. I've been plenty of times and it has always been fun. With prices lower than their local competitors while still maintaining high quality rides Dorney Park is a great stop for your summer fun. High velocity coasters like Steel Force and Talon are sure to excite the thrill seekers. Constrictor and Aqua Blast are great for those who want to slide around and get wet. And for the more laid back crowd check out a Cabana and relax by the Wave Pool. Whatever kind of adventurer you are Dorney Park is the place to be.
Was that copy and pasted from the website?
@@adaml.5355 No, just felt like advertising for them lol. I went last week and once again it was a great time.
I've been to Kings island Cedar point and Carowinds. Cedar Fair spoils us man. We have some good coasters in Ohio. Glad to call Norwalk and Sandusky Home
I think the reason Cedar Fair invests so heavily in Carowinds is because it's essentially the only theme park in either state (NC/SC), and while their are close-ish alternatives, such as King's Dominion and Dollywood, most in the Carolina's still prefer and will travel to Carowinds. Meaning the actual population that Carowinds serves is closer to 15 million. I could easily see Carowinds becoming one of the most profitable and attended in the chain within 10-15 years.
I’ve heard that Allentown is pretty heavy on planning restrictions, which might explain why Dorney isn’t getting the Carowinds treatment.
Dorney has a Allentown water subplant o site next to steel force underground were Dinosaurs alive was that's why no major rides can go there can't dig supports. Portable flats can fit on the site.
Yeah its so unfair... why does cedar fair give every new ride to Michigans Adventure?
Ryan Thompson IKR like Cedar Point only has an RMC, Intamin Strata, Intamin Blitz, Intamin Giga, Intamin Impulse, B&M Wing, B&M Floorless, B&M Invert, B&M Dive, Arrow Hyper, and only like 7 other coasters.
Knott funny. My home Park is Michigan’s Adventure, and it’s still very far away.
Dosware Pictures just go to 6 flags great America instead or cedar point, they aren’t that far away
Mark McCormick Still pretty far, I might have to go to a hotel.
@Dosware Pictures I am going to cedar point and it’s 6 hour drive this summer, and I also have to get a hotel
I feel really bad for Valleyfair and Michigans Adventure :(
Thank you as a Minnesotan valleyfair is it for major theme parks and it's not even that great and I hate it I just wish we could get something here that was actually amazing but sadly that's just the Minnesota way I feel generally bland and uninteresting but harmless
i feel like Valleyfair could have potential as Rochester and Mankato are only 2 hours away. In total those two cities add 500k people. Nearby states like North Dakota and South Dakota have nothing and the many people who get layovers at MSP Airport could spend a day at Valleyfair if there was a big expansion or better advertising. Honestly we need a new expansion in my home park. Im tired of underwhelming flat rides like Delirious. I see potential in Valleyfair but maybe its just me.
@@escminnesota5543 totally agree!
@@escminnesota5543 absolutely right - I can't recall them even bothering to do any advertising besides the Halloween deal in recent years. Also, they have a huge ass parking lot, yet still charge for parking... that in itself reduces their profits, as people don't want to pay for parking right before paying to go inside - there's plenty of space in that lot, so them charging to park there is BS. They assume it's to keep people in the park for lunch, but the reality is it makes casual evening visits less likely to happen. I did have the season pass about 15 years ago, and got the parking pass as well, but even that requires you to pay the first time to get in and buy the pass itself. Astonishingly annoying, and not a good business practice. They really need to push the season pass again, and make it so people can casually go for a few hours in the evening; that summer my buddy and I went at least 30 times - I frequently picked him up from work and if either one of us said "hit Wild Thing a few times?" the other generally agreed, and Cedar Fair got some of our money each time, as who can turn down a nice hot pronto pup? :D
Valleyfair 5 Year Prediction:
2022: Planet Snoopy Expansion (hasn't happened in 11 years)
2023: Funtime Slingshot, Chance Unicoaster
2024: B&M Mini-Dive (Dinosaurs Alive land)
2025: New Show, Zamperla WaterMania
2026: Zamperla Nebulaz, Petting Zoo
Michigan's Adventure 5 Year Prediction:
2022: Larson Drop Tower
2023: Zamperla Rockin' Tug (old Big Dipper land)
2024: New restaurant near Thunderhawk, Corkscrew Removal
2025: Gerstlauer Eurofighter (Corkscrew Land)
2026: Front Entrance Improvements, New Petting Zoo Exhibit
My daughter and I love your videos. They are very informative and more analytical than some other coaster enthusiast channels. You offer viewers an informed expert opinion. This year, we have visited parks in all three of the tiers you describe. My daughter just turned 10 and roller coasters have been our favorite father/daughter activity for five years now. We aren’t necessarily credit seekers, but we keep track of every single ride each season (503 rides on 55 coasters so far this year). Your assessments and placing of the Cedar Fair parks is spot on. Thank you for the effort that you put into your channel. As always, we will look forward to your next video. To quote Cedar Point’s former slogan.....Ride on.
It’s nice how much love they’ve been giving Carowinds lately. I hope they’ll do the same for Kong’s Dominion since Busch Gardens is set to ramp up their coaster game.
Carowinds market is infinitely better than KD's. CF has stated about a year ago in conf call the priority investment parks are Knotts, Cedar Point, Wonderland, Carowinds, and CGA. Cedar Fair has at Cedar Point an analyst day Aug where they stated in a slide presentation "The near term priority will be the tourist market in Southern California." So, one could take that to mean the rumored expansion of Ghost Town at Knotts is even more likely than speculated.
In Michigan the majority of the population lives in the Detroit metro area. So we are 2 hours from Cedar Point or 3 hours from Michigan's Adventure. It just doesn't make sense to travel farther for Less.
I wish that Michigan Adventure got more love. I consider Cedar point my home park, I've even done volunteer work there, but Michigan adventure would surely pull in more people from the east side of the state if it actually had good coasters.
Dorney Park is also very close to New York/Newark metro area
Mike Connolly Yeah, but why go there when you got SFGA or Hershey Park?
NEONProductions a lot of PA schools have field trips there and PA hosts Music in the Parks there
@@etheralonyx4471 True, well, mostly summer camp groups, as sons schools in the area prefer to go somewhere more expansive, like Hershey
@@etheralonyx4471 some*
NEONProductions yeah when I went to summer camp I went to great adventure and Dorney park
As a native of the Charlotte area, Carowinds is one of the few fun things to do in the area that don't involve booze or NASCAR. I didn't like going there as a kid, I always preferred going to the Pavillion down at Myrtle Beach rather than going to Carowinds. Now as an adult though, I love it, cause it's a great place to hang out with friends and listen to people from Ohio complain about the heat.
I think you are mostly correct however you are wrong about Knotts. It’s in the “haves”. The park has a ton of flat parking in 3 adjacent locations. A structure could really help open needed space to expand.
No doubt! I think that for the moment CF has been kind of thinking, if it ain't broke don't fix it. But it's easy enough to slap up a 5 or even 10 story parking deck. The infrastructure cost is minimal compared to building actual rides and buildings. Universal has some impressively sized parking decks in Orlando that work quite well for them.
I love Cedar Fair! (And that's not just because they pay my bills).
Ah, the man who thinks anyone who's favorite at Cedar Point is Valravn is GP. What a surprise. Love this channel NOT!
@@Fury325Fan how is valravn good at all?
This is one of the best coaster videos I have ever watched and that is saying something because I almost have watched 2000! You explained everything so well and now it makes sense why cedar fair only invests in some parks. You did so much research and spent so much time making a perfect video. Keep up the good work!
And please do one for 6 flags
Haha thank you! I will do one for six flags
I love world's of fun, especially going late nights in October. Deserves a new coaster
I live in Louisville. You’re right about how we travel up north to go to King’s Island. It’s a bit of a drive but it’s so much fun! I go for my birthday. As much as I have fond childhood me memories of Kentucky Kingdom and I still enjoy it to this day, it really can’t compare to a spectacle like King’s Island.
Some of us even drive as far as Cedar Point but it’s less accessible. Four hours is a long drive, and that’s only one way. You absolutely have to get a hotel unless you only plan to be there are hour or two (and of course no one does that).
KC local here, I think Cedar Fir has been focusing more on Oceans of Fun for the last 8 years as they try to establish themselves as the premier water park and force schlitterbahn out. They've added some flat rides to the WoF side but mostly been upgrading everyhting on the OoF side. We are over due for a new coaster tho, as Mahomes says, KC is on the rise. (Just not as fast as Charelotte)
I went to Valleyfair for the first time a few weeks ago. I really loved the laid back atmosphere of the park.
Would love a video on the resurgence of the sea world company!
That's something I can look into
Airtime Thrills yeah i don’t understand how they were nearly bankrupt a decade ago but SWO and both BG are now on par with CF and SF top tier parks. Quite amazing tbh they played their cards right. I remember rumors of them selling SWO
Airtime Thrills as BGW being my home park I’d absolutely love to see this
would love to see sea world shut down lmao
Brady Andres those were fake rumors stop lol
9:05-9:10 well this aged perfectly
i live an hour from wonderland and went to michigans adventure this year with my kids. It is definitely a great family park with lots of kids carnival rides throughout. The water park is the best part of the park. Wildcat was the only rough coaster there and we all liked the experience.
Dude, I dont know why, but watching your videos just get me sooo excited for new roller coasters and amusement parks! Thanks for that, keep it up
You should do this exact footprint of a video with six flags
Charlotte does have a major metro near it. Raleigh/Durham. Also Greensboro/W-S too.
What Carowinds has on it's side is a longer season than Kings Island or Cedar Point. The park can open earlier in the year and run through October basically.
"Lets start with one I think is definitely headed into the haves, and that's California's Great America."
*3 years later...*
California's Great America announces that they will be closing in at most 11 years.
That aged well lol.
As I was watching the video I forgot that this was posted a while ago so when I heard this I almost spit my drink out and was like “buddy you sure about that?”😅
I have noticed a huge uptick in attendance at Carowinds from this year over last year and 2 years ago, they're even adding in more parking and an onsite hotel for next year
It crazy how much different you sound now compared to when you made this video.
The great America call doesn't look so good today though now with it be completely strap for possibly a large warehouse
I used to work at Knott's. It's definitely geared more towards families, but I enjoy their rides as they're still thrilling without being as intense as what Magic Mountain offers.
Awesome vid as always! the only thing to correct is the Toronto population stats, as of 2016 the GTA was at 6.4M (there was a HUUUUUGE undercount in the 2016 Canadian census) and the GTA grows about 100-130K per year. Then you have the Golden Horshoe area which is 9.2M+ from Niagara Falls to Toronto, and then the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, where 22-22M Canadians live (out of a country of 37M lol). Their main target, of course, is aimed at people living in the GTA, but they also target these areas and the N.E United States.
The way the US measures metro areas are much more liberal than Canadian measurements. For example the Greater Golden horseshoe area is equivalent in area to the Chicagoland and Washington-Baltimore area and is more populated and should be listed as 2nd on the cedar fairs market list. The other difference is that the Toronto area is rapidly growing unlike most of the US metros in colder climates, which is probably why CF has been investing so heavily into Wonderland.
Watch this once every few days for some reason. Did an amazing job with all the stats.
Another (small) issue for ValleyFair. Its built across the river from a small airport, so rides have a height limit of 275 feet (reached by the Power Tower, who's original desigin called for a 300 ft tower.)
I live in Iowa and we usually go to either Worlds of Fun or Valleyfair. I wish Cedar Fair would pay more attention to them.
All of these parks are on my list of where to go including Michigan's Adventure (except Valleyfair because that's my home park so not really in a hurry). I think Dorney Park and Valleyfair have plans for a new coaster in the near horizon. With Michigan's Adventure getting the new Camp Snoopy, I think that park is starting to get more attention in the chain. I think Kings Dominion should get some more attention as well for the reasons you just explained earlier and I think it will if they're going to put something where Volcano used to sit. I think it's important to remember that just because some parks may be more successful than others doesn't mean they shouldn't be overlooked.
Glad you looked past the parks themselves in determining this. Carowinds is my home park and the community surrounding it really wants to continue the climb and investment in the area.
Love how the definition of cities being close is so different in the US, like in your terms every city in the UK is local to every theme park in the UK :P
I lived in Orange County, and it took me about 1.5 to 2 hours to get to six flags magic mountain, i wouldn't consider it my "local" park.
Grew up 40 minutes from Cedar Point, it was our favorite thing to do after school. Because we were so close we would pick a ride or two and just get back in line until close.
Like if worlds of fun needs a new coaster
Weve been going every year since before the orient was retired. I love this park and I will continue to go but yes it is in dire need of a new coaster. Boomerang is getting old just saying.......
Will we ever get a new ride and/or coaster 😢😁
TheNuttyMechanic boomerang needs to die along with dinosaurs alive like what a waste of space
andrew savoy vlogs ikr
None of these enthusiasts know or remember WOF in it's heyday when the Hunt's owned it.
The crowds were massive back then.
Good video. I consider myself lucky to live within 5 hours of Cedar Point, Kings Island, Kings Dominion, and Carowinds. I have been able to visit all 4 parks this summer and have really turned into an enthusiast. I hope all of these parks can hang on becuase I want to ride them all!
Dorney is my home park. Honestly, I'm okay with not having a new coaster every year. I really wish they had expanded Wild Water Kingdom instead of replacing many of the simpler attractions. I know that's a bit of nostalgia talking, but I really enjoy competing with my friends to see who can muscle their way across the lily pad lagoon first, or suddenly dropping ten feet off the end of a short slide. I think the better-rides-less-often model is a sound plan. Would I be excited to see a high powered, twisting, looping, thriller of a roller coaster? Absolutely, but that would hold me over for a while. Come to think about it, I could really go for a wooden or hybrid coaster.
And Hershey is only a sort-of competitor for Philadelphia; it's twice the price and twice as far away. I noticed that you completely ignored the water parks at these locations. Dorney and Wild Water are one ticket, can both be done in a day but are better in two, and are a third the price of doing both Six Flags parks in Jackson. For those of you who couldn't give a darn about beating the heat... it's actually a bonus. Wild Water takes most of the visitor traffic during the day, meaning lines for coasters are short to non-existent. I think the addition of single rider lines would be great, too.
Awesome video! Probably one of the best coaster channels I've seen on youtube. Keep up the great work!
“Let’s start with another park heading into the haves, California’s Great America.”
Well that aged poorly
Well done on the video. I appreciate the consistency of giving all the numbers and ranks. Easy to follow and held my attention.
As someone who lives closer to California’s Great America than any other theme/amusement park, it’s nice to see it becoming a better amusement park than it has been in a while😉
B&M Hyper 2021 :D, oh and give GoldStriker some retracting work if it's truly starting to get rough.
This aged really bad. :(
Awesome video on the Cedar Fair chain, I also watched your video on the Six Flags chain, I loved the way you explained the population, the revenue and attendance both videos were great!!!
I would consider adding Detroit to Cedar Points area served.
I’m happy to see great America getting more recognition. It’s a great park with awesome rides. Nice and informative video!
Worlds of Fun is EXTREMELY underrated, we have some great coasters. I think if they’d invest a little more in each of the have not parks the parks would have more attendance. I just ended the video when you said cedar fair does not spread their wealth around. I extremely agree and personally I think that’s a bad business model. The more you put into a park the more attendance you’ll get. They need to get that in their heads or else they could be headed down hill. Heck what do I know I’m just a grouchy park guest who has common sense unlike the leaders of the company.
Edit:
I should also add that having no A/C during the hot 90 degree summer weather is NOT a good business model to attract guests.
Yeah CF isn't giving small parks that produce little revenue and ebidta much. It's called ROI. They are doing horrible...you might want to look as t their financials. Just reported Great Q2. Compare to SF..the quarter was cramped on by wall street and the stock plummeted after earnings for the 3rd quarter in a row. CF was up 3percent after q2 results. Cf reported great numbers and organic growth were the something SF can't do and are trying to cover it by adding more parks on leases and wall street isn't buying it no matter how much JRA tries to spin it.
Great analysis of Cedar Fair! As an update to your video: Cedar Fair has purchased the land under Great America which will definitely move it up to the "Haves" list. Do you have the available population, attendance and revenue plotted on charts? Can you do the same analysis for Six Flags? It makes you wonder what the fate will be for Michigan Adventures and Worlds of Fun. I suppose they bought out Six Flags Worlds of Adventure (Geauga Lake) to eliminate competition for Cedar Point and Kings Island which was a smart move. It also provided roller coasters that they could distribute to the "have not" theme parks.
10:36 "and it's the smallest park in terms of acreage" --also the smallest in terms of shade
Very informative video! I might disagree with your ranking for Knotts, but I understand where you are coming from. This video clearly explains why we should never expect anything "big" for Michigan's Adventure. Great work!
Would you put Knotts in the top tier? I know they definitely get investments other than major thrill rides and they have different objectives than the other parks so you could consider it in the Haves
Almost should be 4 tiers:
HAVES" Cedar Point, Carowinds, Kings Island, Canada's Wonderland
THE COULD GO EITHER WAY: California Great America, Kings Dominion, & Knott's
The HAVE NOTS: Dorney, Worlds of Fun, ValleyFair and
THE PLEASE DON'T CLOSE US: Michigan's Adventure.
🤣
Under your system CW clearly belongs in the "could go other way" tier. It is clearly not a "have" park in a league with CP, Cwinds, or KI. It's the weakest link among those 4.
I’m offended at this stuff. Michigan’s Adventure is my home park and it’s still pretty far.
@@racingphotographer8251 given their massive additions on the 3-5 year timetable, I dont see why this park is 2nd tier. Just because Cedar Fair didnt start with much doesnt diminish what theyve added recently
@@AirtimeThrills KI and Cwinds both got puked on by Paramount. Unfortunately, unlike those two, CW still looks like a Paramount park today.
I'd also add that for West Virginia (a state where our only theme park is Camden Park), that Kings Island is the home park for everyone in the lower 3/5 of the state. Kings island is a 3 hour drive from us and we have season passes. We usually don't get a hotel either. Wake up at 6:00 am and get back home around midnight or so. Cedar Point is definitely more of a destination and is obviously the coaster king, but Kings Island is the perfect family park. Just adding my perspective that people far from these metro areas consider some of these parks as their home park.
I remember going to Michigan's Adventure when I was little. I live around Kalamazoo, and it was much easier to make a trip up there than to go all the way to the more expensive Cedar Point or King's Island. It sucks that MA is the bottom of the list:(
Daniel Peppa-Pig Powers Wouldn't CP be worth the extra distance? It's a several-hour-long drive for the flagship park of CF and the so-called "coaster capital of the world", vs 2 hours or less for what is the worst CF park in every way, according to this video.
@@aggroknight4259 well, CP isn't so family friendly, and it's a *lot* more expensive. Mich Ad is trash, yes, but it's dominated by several family coasters and a surprisingly REALLY good water park. the waterpark is honestly what sells the park.
Amazing video like always. It is a good "documentary" feel, nice job
I'd gone to Valleyfair in 2019 after not going since 2013, and whereas they're not adding that many more rides, they did get an overhaul when it came to non-rides, like having more food areas, updating bathrooms, and getting the Planet Snoopy treatment. They also closed the "Dinosaurs Alive!" attraction, which I never saw that many people use, so maybe they can do something more interesting with that space.
Dorney is very small and really has no room for expansion. It’s also very *old* - it has been around for well over 100 years, and its founders had no idea what the future of amusement parks was going to be. There’s only so much that can be done with it. But those of us who grew up with that as our hometown park love it. 🙂
If i was cedar fair, i would make a dark ride in one of the 'on the fence' parks.
I wish they would remove the garbage coasters in Wonder Mountain at CW (Thunder Run and Guardian) and put an RMC dark ride in there. Think Disney's Space Mountain on steroids.
Yeah
For real, everything doesn't have to be a spinning flat ride or a coaster.
@@adventuresinthemeparks6683 the "Have Not" parks like Wonderland get filled up with spinning flat rides. The "haves" like Cedar Point get all the giga coasters.
Knotts has a few dark rides already (Bear-y Tales, Calico Mine Train, Timber Mountain Log Ride), probably to create some synergy with nearby Disneyland, which is almost nothing but dark rides.
Lot's of great information in this video, was fun watching this. Even though Michigan's Adventure is on the bottom I would still like to go there and ride Shivering Timbers, looks real good.
Michigan's Adventure is replacing their antique car ride with a Camp Snoopy area. Yay for my home park!
that was a great video!!!!! I am more the "theme park" kinda person as opposed the concrete and steel parks of Six Flags. Great America is my home park and since Marriotts sold it way back in the day its really hasn't had much love so i was shocked to see it in the "on the fence" category, but happy to see it's finally getting some much needed love. Both Great America and Knotts could be great parks but they have the same issue as all parks in California have and that's they are all land locked and surrounded by residential and big business. Dorney is one that i always root for, it's a nice park, in a well populated area, always friendly staff, I would love to see them become a destination park some day. Again thank you for that video i can see how much work you put into it.
For Canada's Wonderland, I'd say the entire Golden Horseshoe region would be a suitable population for the park. That's over 9 million people!
I think you nailed it with this video! I totally agree with where you put each of the parks. It is sad for me, since Worlds of Fun is my closest Cedar Fair park, and I think it has great potential. On the flip side, one of the nicest things about WoF is that I don't have to wait in long lines for Prowler & Patriot or the great waterslides. Part of why I liked my day at Michigans Adventure so much is that the lines were very short the whole day.
I noticed that 3 parks at the bottom also (aside from Cedar Point) have been in the company the longest
My teacher grew up in kings island she said she heard what happend on son of beast and she rode it she was actually involved in a accident when the wood thing cracked she wasn’t one of the injured but she was on train 1 2 round when it get e stop and thank you for hearting my comment it made my day
>tfw you're a coaster enthusiast
>tfw you also have Worlds of Fun as your home park
THANK YOU for posting this... finally my park will see it.. and realize we need a coaster!! your right we have gone the longest of any park in the chain with out a coaster.. and our park isn't bad.. we have the space. just give us the invert!! we have been rumoring now for 12 years.. and what people want.. or ANYTHING...
ThrillRider247 which park in particular?
Generally agree with this assesment. I might shift the rankings around somewhat, though. I'd move Kings Island down slightly in the "haves" column since they haven't yet received a giga-coaster and Banshee, despite being a record-breaker, was a relatively safe investment as a Son of Beast replacement. Same goes for Mystic Timbers being a safe addition.
I'd definitely move Kings Dominion to the top of the "on-the-fence" column. Yeah, it's true that the SF Bay Area has a much larger population base than western Virginia and Baltimore/Washington, and CGA has less space to work with, but they haven't *yet* received huge investments on par with I-305 and Twisted Timbers. Agree with Knott's being last of the "on-the-fence" parks. Ironically, they have the exact opposite problem of almost every other park in the chain.
Knotts will always have high attendance with their year-round ops, central location in SoCal, and appeal to families on a budget, so they're the biggest park in the chain with little incentive to add huge coasters. Hasn't stopped them from adding the best dark ride in the chain, refurbishing the log flume, retracking GhostRider with GCI, and of course adding HangTime. Would not at all be surprised if they're the first Cedar Fair park to add a parking garage, too! That could allow Knotts to move Marketplace across the street and free up space for a park expansion. SoCal could use a great B&M wing coaster!
Agree with the "have nots" ranking, assuming Dorney Park is first because they're getting a GCI to replace Invertigo and Dinos Alive. Dorney just hasn't had to add much recently because Hershey's major recent thrill coasters, Fahrenheit and Skyrush, are too intense for Dorney's target market. Same goes for Joker at Great Adventure. The recent family additions at Hershey (plus Candymonium) have probably forced CF to make a GCI at Dorney more of a priority than they'd otherwise prefer.
Of the "recent" WoF vs. Valleyfair additions, WoF's are obviously better (yay Timber Wolf retracking), and Valleyfair is at a clear disadvantage having to compete with Nickelodeon Universe being open year-round.
Cedar Fair only keeps Michigan's Adventure around to serve lake tourists to Western MI who want a quieter park atmosphere without a dozen thrilling coasters. They've made decent water park investments since they're cheap and compact, but if an RMC Raptor clone is headed to any of the "have nots", it'll almost certainly be Valleyfair! They're m
the most desperate for a looping coaster that isn't horrible.
And I wouldn't be shocked if Carowinds decided to take out Vortex and Nighthawk for their next major coaster project. A floorless conversion of Vortex would be a good fit for Dorney Park, and they have plenty of space for it. Would be awesome of GCI could build a single-track dueling woodie straddling the Carolina border where Nighthawk and Vortex are! Might happen in the 2023/2024 timeframe.
Great video overall. Waiting to get a platinum pass until Dorney, Valleyfair, and WoF each get an extra non-kiddie coaster. Doesn't matter if it's a hand-me-down, but could still be a while.
u killed it wit this one. big ups my dude
1st to comment! I would like to see how Cedar Fair decides the fate of attractions at their parks. One of my home parks WAS Knott's Berry Farm. It was a charming park with history. Once they bought the farm in 1997, they started gutting almost everything that gave Knott's its charm. First the Haunted Shack, Sky Jump, Kingdom of the Dinosaurs, Reflection Lake, & recently closing Mystery Lodge after 25 years. They built roller coasters on top of other attractions, trying to turn Knott's into a mini Cedar Point. The only good move was getting rid of the piece of trash Windjammer, for Xcellerator. I have been going to Knott's since the late 70's, and made the Corkscrew my 1st coaster @ 5 years old in 1981. I still miss the Wacky Soap Box Racers, & Knott's Berry Tales, but at least bring back the Haunted Shack. THERE, now I feel better. Hello from Phoenix Arizona.
I remember the Haunted Shack, I had completely forgotten about that. I'm too young to really remember the park pre-CF (I started going in the late 90s) but I did appreciate the things they did for the park right after the purchase (though Ghostrider was already in the works under prior ownership)
You know what knott’s really needs? A BrainRush reboot, and on a network that fits.
Knott's was my home park growing up. Windjammer sucked, and i still miss to this day the Soapbox Racers. I feel like the park fumbled around for a while, but once they built Silver bullet I feel like the park was beginning to find it's footing and at the moment i think it's on a pretty good trajectory namely because the replaced that bumpy Boomerang with Hangtime.
Honestly though, they should bring back the sky jump, it was fun to watch inside and outside of the park, also effing terrifying.
I'm curious to see you do a tier list like this for 6 flags as well as their revenue and room for expansion stats