Lars reminded me that... Cthrion Uroniziir opened by using the psionic power ANOTHER WORLD on James and Lars. "What if things had been different? Maybe in another world, I’m the wizard and you’re the fighter! "Target two enemies. Both must succeed on an Intelligence saving throw or swap character sheets until they finish a long rest." Then James, playing Lars' character, used Divine Intervention to swap them back. :D :D :D
I love how other TH-camrs strive to make these thumbnails showing their face with a ridiculous expression fOr tHe aLgOrItHm, meanwhile TH-cam's autogenerated thumbnails do the exact same thing for me with no effort....
The fact that you, as a DM, were able to utter the phrase “milky white fluid” to your group without being wviscerated with pubescent laughter is amazing in itself. My group would have destroyed me
"The Titan of Ix has failed. Ynixquichcauitl awakes. This is the end. All hope is lost unless you can reach the Heart of the World, and stop the End of Time."
Interesting names. Are these inspired by the Nahuatl language, used in Central/South America, I wonder? When I saw Titan of Ix, my first thought was the Nahuatl word for eyes, "ixtli." Titan of Eyes would be pretty cool!
@@evangraham4607 Yep, it's actually straight-out Nahuatl; in fact, my Nahuatl dictionary (Lockhart, as part of his textbook on classical Nahuatl, if you're interested) provides 'ixquich - whole, all, the sum of it' and 'cahuitl - time', but also 'ixquich cahuitl - all of the time, the whole time; generally in the sense of "until" or "up to now"'. 'Yn' is a topical particle, often rendered as a definite article like 'the', so in this case - probably intended as something like 'all that has ever been', 'everything', 'what presently exists' Edit: And, of course, I switched the definitions as I provided them, because using dictionaries is apparently too difficult for me. Fixed now.
I had to turn on closed captions just cause I wanted to see how it would respond to some of the names... in this particular instance, it has decided on "enyx kisch coheedel" and "seth through anarona's ear"
“Is this story interesting?” *Chat is just a sea of rapt faces, eyes reflecting the shimmering firelight, forgotten s’mores in hand, captivated by the greatest camp counselor in this or any age, holding court with a ghost story that will live on in memory for as long as the last forest still stands.*
High level is always intimidating to me as a DM because it's such a high concept, mindset change. I'm excited because I really think that yours is the best channel for discussing high concept and mindset!
Honeslty high level content isn’t that different from low level content the only thing you gotta realize is throwing big numbers at a party literally doesn’t matter so have fun with it use the spells and creatures you’ve always wanted too. Wanna use a cr7 creature with a level twenty party? Throw 7 of them at the party. I’ve run level 40 games and that’s when it gets crunchy. Dnd 5 is really well designed at almost every level just people aren’t used to it. Run a level 20 games they’re a whole lotta fun!
Running 100th level H4 - Throne of Bloodstone was amazing back in the day. Yield nothing to characters this level of power. Literally throw 1000 demons at them if they ask for it.
for your first time use A LOT of cannon fodder. for the bad guys and good guys. in that way you drain out more of your players slots and abilities as they go, and you can have your multiple ancient dragons or whatever go after other groups than your players occasionally as needed to avoid accidentally megastomping them too early. imo a perfect high-level couple shot adventure is to set up some D-day style scenario with entrenched defenders and the party is one group (probabky the strongest) among many attackers who must make landing and work their way through a guantlet before they get to the big bads or rituals. really the hardest part is just that the players have so many options and tactical nuke abilities. they are basically guarunteed to defeat or get by ANYTHING for the first encounter or two, so you have to drain out half that shiz or a little more before they get to face that last supreme important challenge.
I think a lesser DM would have tried to foil the players here, particularly resurrecting godzilla "Does godzilla have a soul? Could mortal magic really restore something of this scale and power?"... but this is just a fun one-shot with level 20 PCs, so honestly the ideal game situation is that the players *do* break the game at every possible moment, that's why it's fun. I loved the story we got here.
Agreed. My impression from previous times of playing (and listening to the CR: Calamity arc) was that level 20 kinda puts the character at the position of being able to pursue godhood, so not expecting some form of old-school, channel-fireball, chain reaction would be a rookie move. Orrrr you're dealing with a DM who is stuck in the, "It's me versus themmmmmmm!" thinking and not the, "facilitate the players doing cool things" philosophy.
"I remembered it without looking at the word! - That means it's real now." Is so perfect. That is exactly how it feels as a DM to have players reference locations, people and phenomena in the world you share. Love how you captured that in a sidenote.
I love the idea of you saving some twitch streams, finding the juicy bits, and uploading them to TH-cam. The extemporaneous camera talk takes me back to the earlier days of this channel and booooy is that dopamine hit real tasty these days
I ran a modified Rise of Tiamat campaign for several years that I extended to level 20, ending with a massive siege battle at Waterdeep from an army of dragons, red wizards, zombies, cultists, dragonspawn and several custom ancient+ dragons vs Waterdeep's army, faction armies, and others they'd rallied along the way including freed kobolds, Selune's good werewolves, a dragon turtle, metallic dragons, and the reactivated Walking Statues (all using your Warfare rules!). From there, it moved to infiltrating the Well of Dragons to fight the high level cult leaders, reserve dragons, and Arkhan the Cruel's improved Dark Order (the anti-party of the campaign), slaying Tiamat's avatar, then jumping into Avernus to slay Tiamat herself and her consorts. A Scroll of Tarrasque Summoning and a Scroll of the Comet were used, legendary dragons were defeated, Waterdeep was left battered but standing, and Tiamat was slain, though her godly essence would be left to reincarnate through Arkhan the Cruel, who escaped and ascended to fill the role of God of Evil Dragons for the future of my world: a future which they managed to save. Level 20 is tricky, but it's doable.
The exact same thing happened to the RoT campaign I was running about a year ago. We were about 3 years in and like 10 games away from the end before everyone broke up. Huge bummer
i appreciate the BBC LOTR streams being saved (and linked in the description here) since they've all started at 3AM my time and i kinda regret not being able to be there
A big benefit of Gate that is oft overlooked is the fact you don't need a tuning fork for it. Plane shift is the interplanar Teleportation Circle, Gate is the interplanar Teleport
I think it’s possible that a lot of games ignore the tuning fork, and while I think that’s a mistake, I understand not wanting to deal with a very noodly material component. At my table, the creature can always plane shift to its native plane without any material, and shifting to any other plane requires possession of a magic item created on that plane. Additionally, no creature can plane shift to the Prime Material unless they are native to it (there is ancient magic that prevents it, to protect the world).
@@davidmartin5145 Yea, I think spell components are kinda underutilised in general, and keeping the tuning forks in mind, it means a DM can set their campaign across like 2 or 3 different planes without the players suddenly going to Ysgard on a whim. Though, considering someone with Wish can cast Plane Shift without requiring material components at no risk to themself, the Gate spell does end up looking even worse, but when you're comparing anything with Wish, 99% of spells will look worse
Plane shift can move the adventurers, making it a decent pc spell if the DM provides the material components. Gate can move armies, shaping global events and making it a great npc spell.
I run high level one shots to break up the long-form campaigns, and they have some of the best stories. My best was playing a "What if" where the question was "What if Gandalf was right and the Balrog had a ring of power." I made two versions of a action oriented balrog, one flame and one shadow, and boy did my players have a blast!
Holy shit, Kelsey's lvl 20 adventure is getting a shout out from MCDM! Everyone should check out the Arcane Library for other great adventures at all tiers!
Hope you guys have the time and energy to finish this level 20 adventure sometime, because the combination of learning more about level 20 play *plus* some lore about the truly terrifying shit hiding in Matt's world at that level just sounds interesting as all hell. 😤
Oh yay! I’m running a level 16 campaign right now because I decided to yeet my novice DM self into the deep end of running the game. Not a whole lot out there for running higher level games, thank you!
I'd be really interested in seeing more support for high level play. I've played at level 20 and run at level 17 but it's always seemed like high level play isn't viable in the long term. Sure it's fun and it's flashy but it's hard to have a sustainable camping at those levels.
Some of my friends have been playing a Pathfinder game for half a decade or so, and it's been max level for around four years now. After the GM added the Mythic levels, he later borrowed my Godbound book to port over its power system after the PCs became demigods. Personally I wouldn't be able to stick with a campaign that long - at that point I just wouldn't find any actual fun in anything my PC would feasibly be doing.
I think more published adventures just need to start at Lv 6-8 and ends around 15-17. Use the scary monsters from Mordekanens and make difficult skill checks or puzzles. I think Wizard just needs to commit to higher level play or run some UAs set there for player feedback. It’s clear that Wotc is at least listening to UA feedback so I don’t see why this should be too difficult in the Information Age.
I like diplomacy more than persuasion. Persuasion is more the perview of things that are resolved via fictional positioning most of the time. Diplomacy is the scale of things that justify rolling.
I have most fun running level 17-20 content in Adventurers League, you see so much insane stuff. Combats that seem impossible and are won in 3 turns cause someone turned all the enemies into rats and then use the pipes of the sewers on them. Just insane crap, I love it.
Kelsey Dionne is a marvelous author of D&D adventures and she's creating an OSR-inspired RPG called Shadowdark now! Its already got a couple of homebrewn stuff created for it by some dedicated fans!
Gate is more useful for zerg-rushing; it lasts for 1 minute and any number of people can move through it. It's useful for army movements, or large mercenary company movements. 4 people can move through a 20-foot wide space simultaneously. 24 people per round. 240 people per minute. More if there's flyers involved.
It also has summoning creatures, and it can transport objects so you could even use it as a defense against an avalanche by sending rocks to tartarus. It doesn't require a special tuning fork which may be difficult to acquire, and it works in all situations except one where you're on your way to fight a literal god (who can prevent gates opening). Plane shift just lets you teleport a bunch of creatures with linked hands to some vague location. Gate is exact, consistent, and incredibly powerful. (Not sure how well gate compared balance wise but it's an incredibly fun spell in my opinion, and summoning people is not to be scoffed at)
I love gate as a DM. Having a caster call forth an army which swarms around them. Maybe some members of that army are also casters with Gate. Great large-scale encounter.
Since most groups never reach level 20, it should be a fun treat to start a campaign world with a 20th level encounter, the outcome of which informs the campaign world set some time in the future. Many many fantasy worlds have epic events in the past that shaped the world of the current storyline; so why not give the players a personal connection to those events.
@@andrewmcmillan229 I am a DM who would be more than happy to do that. I'd be relying on the PCs not to have any clue what's really happening, because in those books the slow reveal of what the prologue really means is such a huge payoff, it'd definitely be worth it. Not to mention I already have the perfect calamity in mind to set it during
I'm actually doing this right now! Started off with a max level show down with a predetermined TPK (sorted out in session zero), and we've been playing for the past four months watching the new PCs gain power and try to stop thr apocalypse from happening to the new world they woke up in. At the end of the intro high level fight, the last PC standing cast wish, and I've been coasting off that vaguely worded gift ever since 😉
I like the idea of twitch highlights, and this was a fun story. The end felt a little abrupt. A quick 10 second outro might be worth considering in the future if it's not too much editing effort.
Imo, high level play is the best. I was in 4 "3 season" (Spring through Fall) campaigns that began in 1st Ed & ran through 2nd Ed. High level play is the most satisfying because of many reasons; everyone deeply knows the world that they are in, and the people which inhabit it. Important NPC's are a part of the characters lives; their goals can become just as important as the players. The dangerous elements of low level play have returned; the stakes are high as usually your group succeeds spectacularly or fails with great consequences. You're trying to think how to secure your characters legacy, which may be the most important plot point in any game.
More specifically, the Latin for "We work in Secret" (or rather hidden) is Occulte Laboramus. Sounds like you had an awesome time! Nice to hear 5th Edition working smoothly, even at 20th level.
Ok, I just want to acknowledge that Din Tai Fung reservations not only are MORE worthy of the sacrifice of a D&D session than most other reservations but also that they further mark Matt as a man of the finest taste. On good nights, I dream of xiao long bao
My only experience with 5e 20th level play was an 8 hour PvP battle royale that started with 14 players before being whittled down to about 4. Both the eye and hand of Vecna were in the arena and got used, someone shapechanged into an ancient bronze dragon that survived about a round and a half as all of the other players ganged up on them, it was wild. It was the last session to finish a Westmarches campaign and everybody could use their own characters, provided they had reached level 20, or create new ones that had to be underpowered (item wise) to prevent everybody making new OP builds. I hadn't reached 20 so I created a fire genasi 1 fighter 19 war wizard with signature spell shield and misty step, incredibly I came 2nd to a minmaxed triton vengeance paladin, that I nearly managed to kill, played by a good friend and DM, so I think I did pretty well.
As a DM, I honestly find higher level play to be easier to manage, but I think what people find easier or harder is entirely based on their own experiences and what types of media they consume regularly.
Same. I've a friend that always plays tanks and he DMs and says its dificult tô use many spells bcs he doesnt know them well. I belive thats why most people belive high lv tô be Hard to DM.
First: Always love when a new Colville video pops up in my notifications of any variety, what a blessed day Second: (and likely irrelevant) but casting Gate over Plane Shift can be the go to move if you only have the diamonds for Gate, and not the Tuning Forks required for Plane Shift.
Differences/why the power gap: Plane Shift is Teleport+ (but to another plane only and always only vaguely around a place) and Banishment+ (no concentration or chance of regular return if it hits) Gate, while able to be used as a go anywhere else style multiverse teleport, is mostly there at 9th level because you can say for example "Tarrasque" (or any other big scary spooky monster thing) when you cast it and it permanently summons the motherfucking titan of a dinosaur lionturtle. A real ponder of why its at 9th level after its revision form D&D next is Weird. It used to work like a aoe version of Power Word Kill that got a save, but still did damage and feared if successful; it got nerfed into shitty version of synaptic static, yet remained at 9th level as if it can still instant kill enemies.
I think level 20 dnd is some of the best dnd if your DM is willing to roll with the punches of how powerful the heroes are. My DM a few years ago did a level 20 one shot where the far realms were encroaching into the other planes. I played a shadow monk, there was a paladin of bahamut and a bard, enough I can't remember their subclasses. The first encounter was a hit team of six mind flayers and three powerful warriors who were riding full ass adult dragons. The bard force caged the mindflayers and we took the three dragon riders down then dealt with the mindflayers. As the story went on, we realized that we might all die saving the multiverse. There were people we failed save, my monk was possessed by the corrupting nature of the far realms and we finally defeated the final boss. These were characters that we had all played for years but never all together and never at level 20 before. So this could have easily been the end. But our DM gave us a choice. If we wanted to do one more adventure as these characters, our names and appearances would be struck from history and the final adventure would be about finding a new epic destiny. So we all took the deal and found ourselves at a tournament that is used to elevate a hero to godhood. My monk became the god of martial arts and paths after accidentally killing her own father but reuniting with her long lost mother. The only person still in existence that recognized her. The paladin became a dragon himself in the service of Bahamut And the bard became the new fucking Santa Claus. Now my monk is still the god of martial arts and paths and my new monk in the new campaign follows her teachings. No one remembers her how she lived, but now many people follow the paths she laid out. At no point did we feel like the adventures were like a cake walk. They felt like the sort of adventures that epic adventurers would get into. World changing, divine, huge events. If you go to high level dnd with the mindset that you're essentially DMing those last few books/chapters of the biggest of high fantasy, you'll have a good time.
I decided to go out of my comfort zone and ask two different friend group to play a lvl 20 one shot in hopes of understanding lvl 20. Bit better. Hopefully it helps me in the future for my current campaign that is at lvl 8, crossing my fingers we continue all the way to 20 .
Just wanted to extend my thanks to you for all of the content,information, suggestions,tips and tricks. I just finished up my first one shot/5 session game as DM and it was quite enjoyable for everyone involved.
THANK YOU for uploading this. As someone who uses Premium to download your videos to listen to whole driving long hours at work, I often feel like I miss out on a lot of chill, conversational content that I would enjoy but don't get because it's on Twitch. Whether it is stuff like this, or 'story time with uncle Matt' or talking about media I really enjoy it and it helps pass the hundreds of hours I spend on the road. So thank you for uploading and please consider doing some more when you can.
Just finished a campaign at lvl 20 on Monday! Was epic! Good end to a 3 year long campaign that started at level 3. I actually often prefer the DM giving us insane problems to solve as lvl 20 characters. We are all wargamers at heart, so the campaign escalating to that point is always fun when it happens.
High level play is amazing with the right DM that understands how to get over the common roadblocks. 15+ is where things are spicy. More people should try running it!
The idea of encountering an enemy who has just slain a great foe, and just ressurecting that foe and be like "want another chance with some help?" Is so cool to me. I should setup an encounter where players get a chance to do that using revivify, I bet they'll feel awesome, especially if I believably act like I didn't expect it. I love encouraging my players with the line "I can't think of a good reason not to let you do that" it allways makes them snicker.
The group I play in went through this adventure (w/o modifications) between one long-term (& much lower-level) campaign & another. It was fun in that form, too!
I wonder what Matt would think to know, that he's the one who really inspired me to hone my craft. As a DM I often ask my players many questions about their preferences and basically view myself as getting to be a game developer that plays in the game and develops the game at the same time. But I have found that I only do the broadest kind of campaign prep, and never use literature like adventure modules, because I find it most fun to run the game almost purely through improvisation. Matt has taught me many ideas about ratcheting up the tension for the players, challenging them, tweaking the math, and implementing a level of lethality in the game best suited to my own specific player's fun. So Matt, you've really gotten us into a head space where we can have loads of fun with the game, and we'd like to thank you for that.
Gate is 9th level because you can both teleport to a perfectly precise location on any plane while plane shift only takes you to a general location, there's no limit to how many creatures can traverse the portal whereas plane shift specifies a maximum of 8 creatures who must be linking hands while the spell is being cast, and gate can bring creatures to you while plane shift can only take you and a few others somewhere else. So there are actually quite a few differences that make gate a more powerful spell.
I am a big fan of high level adventures. Every time I run it, its the best improv session. Whatever your story is, it happened. I run them like the adventure was completed and we're all just ad libbing what developments and successes our characters had. Filling in plot holes with fun.
Super excited to hear about high level play. My current group is 13th level. Also psyched for The Talent. Love psionics since 3.5 and haven't been able to fall in love with a mystic or psion yet in 5. Thanks for putting out delicious content to be consumed.
@@trentdpt Offhand I do not know if Matt has confirmed whether it'll be in a book or whether it'll wind up a standalone product a la the Beastheart and Illrigger, but if I was a gambling man I'd say probably gonna be like those two. That's my best guess.
Plane Shift and Gate actually do have important differences. Wether or not those differences match the level difference (7 vs 9) is debatable, but gate is undoubtably more powerful. Plane Shift: -Targets yourself and up to 8 willing creatures holding hands in a circle (or one creature with a melee spell attack, creature gets to save against it as well, for the secondary function) -Requires a material component specifically attuned to that plane - in other words, you can only go to planes the DM gives you permission for, and only with prior preparation -The location you end up on is relatively imprecise -Secondary function to banish an enemy to a random location on another plane requires a hit with a melee spell attack AND a failed save on their side. Unlikely to happen against powerful enemies at that tier of play. Gate: -Creates a doorway between locations, up to 20ft diameter, for up to 1 minute. You can get a mid-sized warfare unit through that if they are somewhat disciplined. -End location is precise -Requires only a generic material component (which isn't used up) -Secondary function forces a creature you name to you (no save, but requires knowing their actual name - Not "True Name" though, so I guess their birth name?), assuming they are on a different plane than you are. While you don't gain any power over them, you could - for example - summon them into a Magic Circle that locks them in.
The "ok im going to pull the BBEG to the place we just did our prep in, instead of going to their surely heavily protected lair" is a power move worthy of 9th level.
I loved BBC's radio dramatisation of C. S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia. As you say this is your definitive version of LotR, that is my definitive version of Narnia. But thank you for showing me that this exists as well, it will surely lead me down a rabbit hole of dramatisations! Also your level 20 D&D video/story/game sounds awesome too. As always, love your work
At the 9:00 mark when you talk about the differences between Plane Shift and Gate, Plane Shift is used for a small group. Gate is used as a portal that can transfer armies, given enough time. Also the material component for Plane Shift is a rod attuned to that plane of existence, which means you usually have to premeditate where you're going to Plane Shift to, whereas Gate can just be compulsively cast.
My primary group I used to play with frequently had campaigns get to 20th level, but we typically would go for very long form campaigns, and had a very regular play schedule that almost never got interrupted. We played once a week 4 hours on Saturdays for about 10 years, and frequently a single campaign would go on for about a year, and sometimes even longer. So with 52 4 hour sessions a year, hitting 20th level was almost inevitable, but it was a ton of fun because it really allowed us to build a history in the DnD settings around the characters that our group had developed. A group of 4 out of 7 of our standard players had an entire Dwarven Clan they had developed with a complex family history composed of their different player characters, and how they related to each other called Clan Axegrinder. One family line generally produced Dwarven Battleragers of varying levels of crazy, for example, each with their own unique quirks, though one of that line was a pariah that was a Dwarven Mage who constructed a magical mech suit with different wands and rods built into to cast varying types of spells. We also had a tongue in cheek line of Taverns that had effectively become the largest chain Tavern in the Forgotten Realms within our campaigns called the Drunken Dragon Taverns, and you could basically find one in any city. Playing campaigns that regularly get to 20th level do frequently require that you develop a lot of internal house rules just to keep combat somewhat balanced, and keep players from coming up with just some truly ridiculous builds that trivialize combat, but it's still a ton of fun. For example, back in 2nd Edition, we had to limit the number of attacks that a player could get up to, to 4 just because we had a player who ended up creating a Monk who could do 16 attacks per turn and destroy an Adult Red Dragon in a single turn of combat. We did briefly try 4e but ran into similar issues with damage in general in 4e, in that even with the inflated health pools that 4e monsters had, frequently the party was killing even large boss level monsters like Astral Dreadnoughts in a single turn, eliminating a lot of the challenge and we had to further inflate boss health pools to keep fights interesting past that. 5e seems to in general strike a nice balance of player freedom and ability to do cool things without allowing them to just 1 turn bosses as often.
Ran a level 19 adventure last weekend (Eberron Oracle of War, back to the mud), running a level 20 adventure tomorrow night (Dreams of Red Wizards, the Death of Szass Tam), and playing in a level 20 on Sunday. Tier 4 content is a ton of fun. In the lvl 19 adventure, the party of five wrapped up with multiple death saves, almost every spell slot spent (paladin was empty, cleric had only 1st level slots, monk had 4 ki remaining) everyone was bloodied. There were multiple times where the players were positive they were heading for a TPK, but they managed to get the job done. If you have a character who's played a lot of tier 4 though, they can really crank the numbers as they slowly accumulate wishes and boons.
I had a 20th level campaign (1-20) that I organized lazily. With one exception, it was more of an adventurers guild style where we play once a month and level up after each session. At level 1 the party got recruited on a crusade preparing for an invasion of the 9 hells. Level 19 was the emotional peak, as most of the party had more of a conflict with Tiamat and that's where she died. Level 20 was probably more rough in mechanics but everyone enjoyed it because it was more of a celebration. We played online starting during lockdown. At level 20 we were around the table for 9 hours in person having a great time.
Gate is a higher level than Plane Shift because Plane Shift requires you to have a separate (pre-attuned) tuning fork for each plane you want to go to, whereas to cast Gate, you say where you want to go and it just works. Gate also allows you to go to a precise location, whereas if you Plane Shift without a teleportation circle as your destination, you could end up anywhere on that plane (narrowing it down as far as 'in or near a specified area the size of a city' at the GM's discretion). (There's also the more obvious benefits of being able to summon another creature _to you_ with Gate, or transport more than 8 people.)
I'm not connected to the author of the adventure, but I am thankful Matt that you talked about the Arcane Library! I haven't bought the adventure you talked about, but I think I have about 15 of her adventures and just about every one of her adventures has been a total blast. I hope she gets more support because she makes awesome stuff. Any DM's on here should definitely consider checking out that site if possible. My favorite so far has been The Monastery of the Shadow Sorcerers. Thank you Matt! I will definitely check this adventure out!
High level play does take an entire mental shift in how you challenge the players. I think you might have made a good case for MCDM monster design being a reason to run high level games: before, there was little motivation for DMs to want to do it. There’s nothing cool for them to bust out that a lower level party couldn’t already make mincemeat of. But now that there’s more fun and effective super-end boss design, more campaigns might begin to be run at higher levels. DMs are players too, and need rewards for playing as much, if not more, than players do since they do more work than anyone else.
The idea that anyone would willingly stop such an adventure for something as mundane as *food* is utterly beyond me. 🤣 I just love the stories, Matt. Thanks!
Loved the story, loved how it evolved from a Danger Room to a campaign, and I especially loved how you ended with Din Thai Fung which is hands down my favorite place for dumplings. 😃
Man this is great, brings me back to the old days of Matt doing campaign diaries and me just imagining how cool it would be to play in this campaign. Would love to see this more and want more of this adventure!
running a campaign for characters that are now beyond level 20 after two years (they are multiclassed, 16th level in main class anf 5th level in a second class) the party of 3 players completely stomped a tarrasque that i ran as maximally difficult as i am capable of doing
One of the better reasons to cast gate over a plane shift is you just need a diamond, not a specific tuning fork or a pair of tuning forks. So gate is your trunk card when enforcing material components and you don't have to have the right fork.
One of the most interesting aspects of this is so many of the players chose human as the character race/ancestry. This runs counter to almost every other experience, direct or virtual, I've had of 5E, as most 5E players I've known or watched seem to want to play anything BUT humans.
While in art school my Dm had me make four level 20 characters in 3.5 dnd and went into the epic level handbook. The characters lived until they hit level 28 until they all died in a vampire lair. It was only about ten sessions but those characters will live in my mind forever
My first character I played from 1st to 20th level. Part of our campaign at that point was being so powerful it was stupid, so we were doing stuff like sinking fleets of ships and fighting gods and felling kingdoms. High level DND is only boring if the fantasy presented by the DM is still assuming your players are low level, they just happen to be fighting CR 21 monsters. They can't run errands anymore, they're people of power and influence, which fundamentally changes the kind of challenges they face.
The problem is they can only fight so many world ending threats. If you are sinking a fleet the only options are entire armies or demigods. There comes a time where you really should just be playing a system thats better for it IE exalted.
@@user-dd9dh9kw5c Oh totally. You shouldn't just LINGER at 20th level. You cap your campaign, then go back to chasing goblins through the sewer. I just think a lot of people are frustrated about the culminations of their characters because it feels like the same stuff they've ALWAYS been doing.
Start new campaign with characters based in an outer plane, but do not tell them. Most players assume they are in Prime, small hints ( for example native creatures to Elysium ) during adventuring and watching the players slowly become aware of where they are is AWESOME!
High level D&D is so ridiculous. I'm in a pathfinder game at level 17 and the power levels are over9000. Fights are an exchange of one-shots and save-or-suck, and skill checks end in the 50's and 60's.
you can only compare that to 3.5e, not 5e. bounded accuracy has done away with checks being multiple times larger than the maximum roll of the original die being used.
Wow, how is it after 3 years watching you tube videos I've never come across you? Had it not been for another utuber mentioning you I'd still not know about you. Well you were highly recommended so I plan to check out much of your content.
Personally I like Diplomacy better because it seems to focus on being an intermediary or dealing with foreign or emotional differences. But I'm also the guy who thinks deception should be folded into persuasion since lying is just persuading someone that a lie is true. A person good at persuasion would be good at deception.
A vast majority of my builds (though not necessarily characters) are level 20. It's such a versatile level, you can make pretty much anything you want! Want a character with 40 cantrips (including at-will spell effects)? Level 20's got you! Want a character that can leap 594 feet in the air? Level 20, baby! Want your character to always go first, no matter the occasion? Well, level 15 can get you there, but level 20 can get you there better!
My group plays pathfinder at level 20 for like 4 hours at least once every two years, since most our campaigns go to level 20, then shortly end. The current campaign has us at level 22. In fact, I once ran one to 30.
My friend group ran a level 20 AD&D2 one-shot back in the 90s, and we definitely spent more time making those characters than actually playing. It was pretty fun, although a botch sort of ruined my poor Paladin's cool moment. To this day it's the only time we've played characters beyond 10th level, which is one reason I kind of soured on D&D as a whole.
Lars reminded me that...
Cthrion Uroniziir opened by using the psionic power ANOTHER WORLD on James and Lars.
"What if things had been different? Maybe in another world, I’m the wizard and you’re the fighter!
"Target two enemies. Both must succeed on an Intelligence saving throw or swap character sheets until they finish a long rest."
Then James, playing Lars' character, used Divine Intervention to swap them back. :D :D :D
Can I just say that Cthrion Uroniziir is an amazing name.
@@justinclement7211 This is what I get paid the big bucks for....
That is my favorite of the psionic powers in S&F and K&W. Just whacky and fun can’t wait to use it!
Hey I just watched your Vecna video where you said you'd use that kind of ability for Vecna. Or perhaps, a villain of similar power and importance? ;)
Thats a hella cool moment!
I love how other TH-camrs strive to make these thumbnails showing their face with a ridiculous expression fOr tHe aLgOrItHm, meanwhile TH-cam's autogenerated thumbnails do the exact same thing for me with no effort....
The curse of charisma
You have a gift sir. Many would like this power. Perhaps you could become a warlock patron?
I would sign on for the Pact of Colville.
Of course I'm a patron, so maybe I already have :-)
It really loves to show you with your mouth wide open. Luckily just knowing you talk in the video still sells it
Every time I paused one of your videos to go do something, I come back to a hilarious Matt face. It's perfect every time.
The fact that you, as a DM, were able to utter the phrase “milky white fluid” to your group without being wviscerated with pubescent laughter is amazing in itself. My group would have destroyed me
One hundred percent same.
Haha I would not have gotten by with that either
Do we run for the same group?
You are, of course, assuming that Matt *didn't get roasted by his players...
I can absolutely never (again) start to describe anything with "big, black.."
"The Titan of Ix has failed. Ynixquichcauitl awakes. This is the end. All hope is lost unless you can reach the Heart of the World, and stop the End of Time."
Interesting names. Are these inspired by the Nahuatl language, used in Central/South America, I wonder? When I saw Titan of Ix, my first thought was the Nahuatl word for eyes, "ixtli." Titan of Eyes would be pretty cool!
@@evangraham4607 Yep, it's actually straight-out Nahuatl; in fact, my Nahuatl dictionary (Lockhart, as part of his textbook on classical Nahuatl, if you're interested) provides 'ixquich - whole, all, the sum of it' and 'cahuitl - time', but also 'ixquich cahuitl - all of the time, the whole time; generally in the sense of "until" or "up to now"'. 'Yn' is a topical particle, often rendered as a definite article like 'the', so in this case - probably intended as something like 'all that has ever been', 'everything', 'what presently exists'
Edit: And, of course, I switched the definitions as I provided them, because using dictionaries is apparently too difficult for me. Fixed now.
I'm running a jungle campaign so I appreciate the spelling of the name for reference
Cool, seems inspired by the Anshardalon's broken souls campaign.
I had to turn on closed captions just cause I wanted to see how it would respond to some of the names... in this particular instance, it has decided on "enyx kisch coheedel" and "seth through anarona's ear"
"This world is *mine* to end!" is the rawest fucking line and I want to design a whole adventure/campaign around that concept.
Out of the Abyss has that attitude towards the end.
Okay cool it down Fandaniel 😂
This reminds me of Omni-Man saying "This planet is not yours to conquer"
Oh lord yes, my big bad (Demogorgon) is gonna say that if my players ever make it to him....
@@Rewwgh
This world belong to us and us alone.
“Is this story interesting?”
*Chat is just a sea of rapt faces, eyes reflecting the shimmering firelight, forgotten s’mores in hand, captivated by the greatest camp counselor in this or any age, holding court with a ghost story that will live on in memory for as long as the last forest still stands.*
Ikr? It broke my heart how he cut off to that just as he said "we were really getting into it!"
Like.. Me too, Matt. Me too TwT
High level is always intimidating to me as a DM because it's such a high concept, mindset change. I'm excited because I really think that yours is the best channel for discussing high concept and mindset!
Honeslty high level content isn’t that different from low level content the only thing you gotta realize is throwing big numbers at a party literally doesn’t matter so have fun with it use the spells and creatures you’ve always wanted too. Wanna use a cr7 creature with a level twenty party? Throw 7 of them at the party. I’ve run level 40 games and that’s when it gets crunchy. Dnd 5 is really well designed at almost every level just people aren’t used to it. Run a level 20 games they’re a whole lotta fun!
@@gomigaming that's really not what I've found to be true in my personal experience but hey, differences are the beauty of the game!
@@Calebgoblin I agree. 20th level play simply is not fun for player or GM. Theres a reason Ive started playing ose.
Running 100th level H4 - Throne of Bloodstone was amazing back in the day. Yield nothing to characters this level of power. Literally throw 1000 demons at them if they ask for it.
for your first time use A LOT of cannon fodder.
for the bad guys and good guys.
in that way you drain out more of your players slots and abilities as they go, and you can have your multiple ancient dragons or whatever go after other groups than your players occasionally as needed to avoid accidentally megastomping them too early.
imo a perfect high-level couple shot adventure is to set up some D-day style scenario with entrenched defenders and the party is one group (probabky the strongest) among many attackers who must make landing and work their way through a guantlet before they get to the big bads or rituals.
really the hardest part is just that the players have so many options and tactical nuke abilities. they are basically guarunteed to defeat or get by ANYTHING for the first encounter or two, so you have to drain out half that shiz or a little more before they get to face that last supreme important challenge.
I think a lesser DM would have tried to foil the players here, particularly resurrecting godzilla "Does godzilla have a soul? Could mortal magic really restore something of this scale and power?"... but this is just a fun one-shot with level 20 PCs, so honestly the ideal game situation is that the players *do* break the game at every possible moment, that's why it's fun. I loved the story we got here.
Agreed. My impression from previous times of playing (and listening to the CR: Calamity arc) was that level 20 kinda puts the character at the position of being able to pursue godhood, so not expecting some form of old-school, channel-fireball, chain reaction would be a rookie move. Orrrr you're dealing with a DM who is stuck in the, "It's me versus themmmmmmm!" thinking and not the, "facilitate the players doing cool things" philosophy.
"I remembered it without looking at the word! - That means it's real now." Is so perfect. That is exactly how it feels as a DM to have players reference locations, people and phenomena in the world you share. Love how you captured that in a sidenote.
I love the idea of you saving some twitch streams, finding the juicy bits, and uploading them to TH-cam. The extemporaneous camera talk takes me back to the earlier days of this channel and booooy is that dopamine hit real tasty these days
I second this notion!
We think this room is the heart of the house... This house has many hearts. -- Poltergeist
I ran a modified Rise of Tiamat campaign for several years that I extended to level 20, ending with a massive siege battle at Waterdeep from an army of dragons, red wizards, zombies, cultists, dragonspawn and several custom ancient+ dragons vs Waterdeep's army, faction armies, and others they'd rallied along the way including freed kobolds, Selune's good werewolves, a dragon turtle, metallic dragons, and the reactivated Walking Statues (all using your Warfare rules!). From there, it moved to infiltrating the Well of Dragons to fight the high level cult leaders, reserve dragons, and Arkhan the Cruel's improved Dark Order (the anti-party of the campaign), slaying Tiamat's avatar, then jumping into Avernus to slay Tiamat herself and her consorts. A Scroll of Tarrasque Summoning and a Scroll of the Comet were used, legendary dragons were defeated, Waterdeep was left battered but standing, and Tiamat was slain, though her godly essence would be left to reincarnate through Arkhan the Cruel, who escaped and ascended to fill the role of God of Evil Dragons for the future of my world: a future which they managed to save.
Level 20 is tricky, but it's doable.
Man, I miss that RoT ending... my group disbanded just before finishing a RoT modofied campaign.
The exact same thing happened to the RoT campaign I was running about a year ago. We were about 3 years in and like 10 games away from the end before everyone broke up. Huge bummer
"Dead universes inside her..."
Damn. That is cool, and existentially terrifying, but mostly cool.
i appreciate the BBC LOTR streams being saved (and linked in the description here) since they've all started at 3AM my time and i kinda regret not being able to be there
A big benefit of Gate that is oft overlooked is the fact you don't need a tuning fork for it. Plane shift is the interplanar Teleportation Circle, Gate is the interplanar Teleport
I think it’s possible that a lot of games ignore the tuning fork, and while I think that’s a mistake, I understand not wanting to deal with a very noodly material component. At my table, the creature can always plane shift to its native plane without any material, and shifting to any other plane requires possession of a magic item created on that plane. Additionally, no creature can plane shift to the Prime Material unless they are native to it (there is ancient magic that prevents it, to protect the world).
The other difference is in older editions planeshift was not accurate in 3rd ed it was hundreds of miles and in 4th it was up to 100 miles off target.
@@davidmartin5145 Yea, I think spell components are kinda underutilised in general, and keeping the tuning forks in mind, it means a DM can set their campaign across like 2 or 3 different planes without the players suddenly going to Ysgard on a whim.
Though, considering someone with Wish can cast Plane Shift without requiring material components at no risk to themself, the Gate spell does end up looking even worse, but when you're comparing anything with Wish, 99% of spells will look worse
Plane shift can move the adventurers, making it a decent pc spell if the DM provides the material components. Gate can move armies, shaping global events and making it a great npc spell.
I run high level one shots to break up the long-form campaigns, and they have some of the best stories. My best was playing a "What if" where the question was "What if Gandalf was right and the Balrog had a ring of power." I made two versions of a action oriented balrog, one flame and one shadow, and boy did my players have a blast!
Against the Wyrm of the World's End sounds like the logical conclusion of a game that starts with Against the Cult of the Reptile God...
Holy shit, Kelsey's lvl 20 adventure is getting a shout out from MCDM! Everyone should check out the Arcane Library for other great adventures at all tiers!
Hope you guys have the time and energy to finish this level 20 adventure sometime, because the combination of learning more about level 20 play *plus* some lore about the truly terrifying shit hiding in Matt's world at that level just sounds interesting as all hell. 😤
Oh yay! I’m running a level 16 campaign right now because I decided to yeet my novice DM self into the deep end of running the game. Not a whole lot out there for running higher level games, thank you!
I'd be really interested in seeing more support for high level play. I've played at level 20 and run at level 17 but it's always seemed like high level play isn't viable in the long term. Sure it's fun and it's flashy but it's hard to have a sustainable camping at those levels.
I've always viewed level 19 and 20 as the small time frame before the final boss in a video game where you get all the legendary boons and items.
Some of my friends have been playing a Pathfinder game for half a decade or so, and it's been max level for around four years now. After the GM added the Mythic levels, he later borrowed my Godbound book to port over its power system after the PCs became demigods.
Personally I wouldn't be able to stick with a campaign that long - at that point I just wouldn't find any actual fun in anything my PC would feasibly be doing.
A lot of people would be interested in seeing more high level support but WotC won't do it. Even TPPs are scared to do it for some reason.
I think more published adventures just need to start at Lv 6-8 and ends around 15-17. Use the scary monsters from Mordekanens and make difficult skill checks or puzzles. I think Wizard just needs to commit to higher level play or run some UAs set there for player feedback.
It’s clear that Wotc is at least listening to UA feedback so I don’t see why this should be too difficult in the Information Age.
@@ihatevnecks7015 Maybe Pathfinder has better support for high level play than 5e. I've only played Pathfinder a handful of times.
I like diplomacy more than persuasion. Persuasion is more the perview of things that are resolved via fictional positioning most of the time. Diplomacy is the scale of things that justify rolling.
I have most fun running level 17-20 content in Adventurers League, you see so much insane stuff. Combats that seem impossible and are won in 3 turns cause someone turned all the enemies into rats and then use the pipes of the sewers on them. Just insane crap, I love it.
This makes me realise how much i miss the campaign diaries. I hope we get to hear the climax of this 1 shot
Kelsey Dionne is a marvelous author of D&D adventures and she's creating an OSR-inspired RPG called Shadowdark now! Its already got a couple of homebrewn stuff created for it by some dedicated fans!
Gate is more useful for zerg-rushing; it lasts for 1 minute and any number of people can move through it. It's useful for army movements, or large mercenary company movements. 4 people can move through a 20-foot wide space simultaneously. 24 people per round. 240 people per minute. More if there's flyers involved.
It also has summoning creatures, and it can transport objects so you could even use it as a defense against an avalanche by sending rocks to tartarus. It doesn't require a special tuning fork which may be difficult to acquire, and it works in all situations except one where you're on your way to fight a literal god (who can prevent gates opening). Plane shift just lets you teleport a bunch of creatures with linked hands to some vague location. Gate is exact, consistent, and incredibly powerful.
(Not sure how well gate compared balance wise but it's an incredibly fun spell in my opinion, and summoning people is not to be scoffed at)
With 60ft on a dash you could get 546 people through in a round, multiply that several times if they are squeezing more than one person per square
I love gate as a DM. Having a caster call forth an army which swarms around them. Maybe some members of that army are also casters with Gate. Great large-scale encounter.
Since most groups never reach level 20, it should be a fun treat to start a campaign world with a 20th level encounter, the outcome of which informs
the campaign world set some time in the future. Many many fantasy worlds have epic events in the past that shaped the world of the current storyline; so why not give the players a personal connection to those events.
Big Wheel of Time/Way of Kings vibes
Would be hard on the dm though since you would have to significantly change the setting immediately after starting the campaign.
@@andrewmcmillan229 I am a DM who would be more than happy to do that. I'd be relying on the PCs not to have any clue what's really happening, because in those books the slow reveal of what the prologue really means is such a huge payoff, it'd definitely be worth it. Not to mention I already have the perfect calamity in mind to set it during
I'm actually doing this right now! Started off with a max level show down with a predetermined TPK (sorted out in session zero), and we've been playing for the past four months watching the new PCs gain power and try to stop thr apocalypse from happening to the new world they woke up in.
At the end of the intro high level fight, the last PC standing cast wish, and I've been coasting off that vaguely worded gift ever since 😉
Yeah, this is exactly my plan next time I get to run...
Nothing like some Colville content to go with my midday coffee
I like the idea of twitch highlights, and this was a fun story. The end felt a little abrupt. A quick 10 second outro might be worth considering in the future if it's not too much editing effort.
"Andddd yeah! Peace....? Out!!"
I love the Arcane Library’s stuff!!! Glad you got to play of it
Imo, high level play is the best. I was in 4 "3 season" (Spring through Fall) campaigns that began in 1st Ed & ran through 2nd Ed. High level play is the most satisfying because of many reasons; everyone deeply knows the world that they are in, and the people which inhabit it. Important NPC's are a part of the characters lives; their goals can become just as important as the players. The dangerous elements of low level play have returned; the stakes are high as usually your group succeeds spectacularly or fails with great consequences. You're trying to think how to secure your characters legacy, which may be the most important plot point in any game.
I wonder if this is the first time anyone has played a lv20 beast master after it’s release.
More specifically, the Latin for "We work in Secret" (or rather hidden) is Occulte Laboramus.
Sounds like you had an awesome time! Nice to hear 5th Edition working smoothly, even at 20th level.
Ok, I just want to acknowledge that Din Tai Fung reservations not only are MORE worthy of the sacrifice of a D&D session than most other reservations but also that they further mark Matt as a man of the finest taste.
On good nights, I dream of xiao long bao
My only experience with 5e 20th level play was an 8 hour PvP battle royale that started with 14 players before being whittled down to about 4. Both the eye and hand of Vecna were in the arena and got used, someone shapechanged into an ancient bronze dragon that survived about a round and a half as all of the other players ganged up on them, it was wild. It was the last session to finish a Westmarches campaign and everybody could use their own characters, provided they had reached level 20, or create new ones that had to be underpowered (item wise) to prevent everybody making new OP builds. I hadn't reached 20 so I created a fire genasi 1 fighter 19 war wizard with signature spell shield and misty step, incredibly I came 2nd to a minmaxed triton vengeance paladin, that I nearly managed to kill, played by a good friend and DM, so I think I did pretty well.
As a DM, I honestly find higher level play to be easier to manage, but I think what people find easier or harder is entirely based on their own experiences and what types of media they consume regularly.
Same. I've a friend that always plays tanks and he DMs and says its dificult tô use many spells bcs he doesnt know them well. I belive thats why most people belive high lv tô be Hard to DM.
First: Always love when a new Colville video pops up in my notifications of any variety, what a blessed day
Second: (and likely irrelevant) but casting Gate over Plane Shift can be the go to move if you only have the diamonds for Gate, and not the Tuning Forks required for Plane Shift.
Planeshift requires a tuning fork for the plane while Gate doesn't, right? Could explain part of the reason why it's a difference in spell level.
Differences/why the power gap:
Plane Shift is Teleport+ (but to another plane only and always only vaguely around a place) and Banishment+ (no concentration or chance of regular return if it hits)
Gate, while able to be used as a go anywhere else style multiverse teleport, is mostly there at 9th level because you can say for example "Tarrasque" (or any other big scary spooky monster thing) when you cast it and it permanently summons the motherfucking titan of a dinosaur lionturtle.
A real ponder of why its at 9th level after its revision form D&D next is Weird.
It used to work like a aoe version of Power Word Kill that got a save, but still did damage and feared if successful; it got nerfed into shitty version of synaptic static, yet remained at 9th level as if it can still instant kill enemies.
@@ANDELE3025 Another very fun use of Gate is to point the opening at your enemies, link it to the Elemental Plane of Water, and see what happens
I think level 20 dnd is some of the best dnd if your DM is willing to roll with the punches of how powerful the heroes are.
My DM a few years ago did a level 20 one shot where the far realms were encroaching into the other planes. I played a shadow monk, there was a paladin of bahamut and a bard, enough I can't remember their subclasses. The first encounter was a hit team of six mind flayers and three powerful warriors who were riding full ass adult dragons. The bard force caged the mindflayers and we took the three dragon riders down then dealt with the mindflayers.
As the story went on, we realized that we might all die saving the multiverse. There were people we failed save, my monk was possessed by the corrupting nature of the far realms and we finally defeated the final boss. These were characters that we had all played for years but never all together and never at level 20 before. So this could have easily been the end. But our DM gave us a choice. If we wanted to do one more adventure as these characters, our names and appearances would be struck from history and the final adventure would be about finding a new epic destiny.
So we all took the deal and found ourselves at a tournament that is used to elevate a hero to godhood.
My monk became the god of martial arts and paths after accidentally killing her own father but reuniting with her long lost mother. The only person still in existence that recognized her.
The paladin became a dragon himself in the service of Bahamut
And the bard became the new fucking Santa Claus.
Now my monk is still the god of martial arts and paths and my new monk in the new campaign follows her teachings. No one remembers her how she lived, but now many people follow the paths she laid out.
At no point did we feel like the adventures were like a cake walk. They felt like the sort of adventures that epic adventurers would get into. World changing, divine, huge events.
If you go to high level dnd with the mindset that you're essentially DMing those last few books/chapters of the biggest of high fantasy, you'll have a good time.
Your enjoyment of this story is palpable. Thanks for this man.
08:31 I happened to have captions on - 'younique's quiche coil' - is the name of my bard's new SKA band.
I will say Gate is mostly for summoning and mass transit. Basically Gate moves other people, Planeshift is for moving yourself and your party.
I decided to go out of my comfort zone and ask two different friend group to play a lvl 20 one shot in hopes of understanding lvl 20. Bit better. Hopefully it helps me in the future for my current campaign that is at lvl 8, crossing my fingers we continue all the way to 20 .
Oh my god, Matt I miss these!
I've been surprised not to see Campaign Diary style breakdowns for your Dusk series as well
Wow, that kicks so much azz. Just having the decades of world building to back up the universal plate tectonics.
Just wanted to extend my thanks to you for all of the content,information, suggestions,tips and tricks. I just finished up my first one shot/5 session game as DM and it was quite enjoyable for everyone involved.
THANK YOU for uploading this. As someone who uses Premium to download your videos to listen to whole driving long hours at work, I often feel like I miss out on a lot of chill, conversational content that I would enjoy but don't get because it's on Twitch. Whether it is stuff like this, or 'story time with uncle Matt' or talking about media I really enjoy it and it helps pass the hundreds of hours I spend on the road. So thank you for uploading and please consider doing some more when you can.
I love seeing you so excited about your game. It was great watching you retell the crazy adventure
Just finished a campaign at lvl 20 on Monday! Was epic! Good end to a 3 year long campaign that started at level 3.
I actually often prefer the DM giving us insane problems to solve as lvl 20 characters. We are all wargamers at heart, so the campaign escalating to that point is always fun when it happens.
dope video, cool to get some perspective on what stakes and threats are like narratively at such high levels.
High level play is amazing with the right DM that understands how to get over the common roadblocks. 15+ is where things are spicy. More people should try running it!
The idea of encountering an enemy who has just slain a great foe, and just ressurecting that foe and be like "want another chance with some help?" Is so cool to me. I should setup an encounter where players get a chance to do that using revivify, I bet they'll feel awesome, especially if I believably act like I didn't expect it. I love encouraging my players with the line "I can't think of a good reason not to let you do that" it allways makes them snicker.
The group I play in went through this adventure (w/o modifications) between one long-term (& much lower-level) campaign & another. It was fun in that form, too!
I wonder what Matt would think to know, that he's the one who really inspired me to hone my craft.
As a DM I often ask my players many questions about their preferences and basically view myself as getting to be a game developer that plays in the game and develops the game at the same time.
But I have found that I only do the broadest kind of campaign prep, and never use literature like adventure modules, because I find it most fun to run the game almost purely through improvisation. Matt has taught me many ideas about ratcheting up the tension for the players, challenging them, tweaking the math, and implementing a level of lethality in the game best suited to my own specific player's fun.
So Matt, you've really gotten us into a head space where we can have loads of fun with the game, and we'd like to thank you for that.
Gate is 9th level because you can both teleport to a perfectly precise location on any plane while plane shift only takes you to a general location, there's no limit to how many creatures can traverse the portal whereas plane shift specifies a maximum of 8 creatures who must be linking hands while the spell is being cast, and gate can bring creatures to you while plane shift can only take you and a few others somewhere else. So there are actually quite a few differences that make gate a more powerful spell.
two rounds of combat
two hours
two rounds of combat
...two hours
I am a big fan of high level adventures. Every time I run it, its the best improv session. Whatever your story is, it happened. I run them like the adventure was completed and we're all just ad libbing what developments and successes our characters had. Filling in plot holes with fun.
Super excited to hear about high level play. My current group is 13th level. Also psyched for The Talent. Love psionics since 3.5 and haven't been able to fall in love with a mystic or psion yet in 5. Thanks for putting out delicious content to be consumed.
I was wondering what The Talent was! Is that coming out in Arcadia or in one of the books?
@@trentdpt Offhand I do not know if Matt has confirmed whether it'll be in a book or whether it'll wind up a standalone product a la the Beastheart and Illrigger, but if I was a gambling man I'd say probably gonna be like those two. That's my best guess.
Plane Shift and Gate actually do have important differences. Wether or not those differences match the level difference (7 vs 9) is debatable, but gate is undoubtably more powerful.
Plane Shift:
-Targets yourself and up to 8 willing creatures holding hands in a circle (or one creature with a melee spell attack, creature gets to save against it as well, for the secondary function)
-Requires a material component specifically attuned to that plane - in other words, you can only go to planes the DM gives you permission for, and only with prior preparation
-The location you end up on is relatively imprecise
-Secondary function to banish an enemy to a random location on another plane requires a hit with a melee spell attack AND a failed save on their side. Unlikely to happen against powerful enemies at that tier of play.
Gate:
-Creates a doorway between locations, up to 20ft diameter, for up to 1 minute. You can get a mid-sized warfare unit through that if they are somewhat disciplined.
-End location is precise
-Requires only a generic material component (which isn't used up)
-Secondary function forces a creature you name to you (no save, but requires knowing their actual name - Not "True Name" though, so I guess their birth name?), assuming they are on a different plane than you are. While you don't gain any power over them, you could - for example - summon them into a Magic Circle that locks them in.
The "ok im going to pull the BBEG to the place we just did our prep in, instead of going to their surely heavily protected lair" is a power move worthy of 9th level.
I loved BBC's radio dramatisation of C. S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia. As you say this is your definitive version of LotR, that is my definitive version of Narnia. But thank you for showing me that this exists as well, it will surely lead me down a rabbit hole of dramatisations!
Also your level 20 D&D video/story/game sounds awesome too. As always, love your work
At the 9:00 mark when you talk about the differences between Plane Shift and Gate, Plane Shift is used for a small group. Gate is used as a portal that can transfer armies, given enough time.
Also the material component for Plane Shift is a rod attuned to that plane of existence, which means you usually have to premeditate where you're going to Plane Shift to, whereas Gate can just be compulsively cast.
My primary group I used to play with frequently had campaigns get to 20th level, but we typically would go for very long form campaigns, and had a very regular play schedule that almost never got interrupted. We played once a week 4 hours on Saturdays for about 10 years, and frequently a single campaign would go on for about a year, and sometimes even longer. So with 52 4 hour sessions a year, hitting 20th level was almost inevitable, but it was a ton of fun because it really allowed us to build a history in the DnD settings around the characters that our group had developed.
A group of 4 out of 7 of our standard players had an entire Dwarven Clan they had developed with a complex family history composed of their different player characters, and how they related to each other called Clan Axegrinder. One family line generally produced Dwarven Battleragers of varying levels of crazy, for example, each with their own unique quirks, though one of that line was a pariah that was a Dwarven Mage who constructed a magical mech suit with different wands and rods built into to cast varying types of spells. We also had a tongue in cheek line of Taverns that had effectively become the largest chain Tavern in the Forgotten Realms within our campaigns called the Drunken Dragon Taverns, and you could basically find one in any city.
Playing campaigns that regularly get to 20th level do frequently require that you develop a lot of internal house rules just to keep combat somewhat balanced, and keep players from coming up with just some truly ridiculous builds that trivialize combat, but it's still a ton of fun. For example, back in 2nd Edition, we had to limit the number of attacks that a player could get up to, to 4 just because we had a player who ended up creating a Monk who could do 16 attacks per turn and destroy an Adult Red Dragon in a single turn of combat. We did briefly try 4e but ran into similar issues with damage in general in 4e, in that even with the inflated health pools that 4e monsters had, frequently the party was killing even large boss level monsters like Astral Dreadnoughts in a single turn, eliminating a lot of the challenge and we had to further inflate boss health pools to keep fights interesting past that.
5e seems to in general strike a nice balance of player freedom and ability to do cool things without allowing them to just 1 turn bosses as often.
Matt i wont lie. Id love to just have a list of the batshit crazy awesome names you make
This is a great development - so much viewing gold unearthed in your life streams - all easily 'worthy' of a TH-cam release. More, please, more!
Ran a level 19 adventure last weekend (Eberron Oracle of War, back to the mud), running a level 20 adventure tomorrow night (Dreams of Red Wizards, the Death of Szass Tam), and playing in a level 20 on Sunday.
Tier 4 content is a ton of fun. In the lvl 19 adventure, the party of five wrapped up with multiple death saves, almost every spell slot spent (paladin was empty, cleric had only 1st level slots, monk had 4 ki remaining) everyone was bloodied. There were multiple times where the players were positive they were heading for a TPK, but they managed to get the job done.
If you have a character who's played a lot of tier 4 though, they can really crank the numbers as they slowly accumulate wishes and boons.
I had a 20th level campaign (1-20) that I organized lazily.
With one exception, it was more of an adventurers guild style where we play once a month and level up after each session.
At level 1 the party got recruited on a crusade preparing for an invasion of the 9 hells.
Level 19 was the emotional peak, as most of the party had more of a conflict with Tiamat and that's where she died.
Level 20 was probably more rough in mechanics but everyone enjoyed it because it was more of a celebration. We played online starting during lockdown.
At level 20 we were around the table for 9 hours in person having a great time.
Gate is a higher level than Plane Shift because Plane Shift requires you to have a separate (pre-attuned) tuning fork for each plane you want to go to, whereas to cast Gate, you say where you want to go and it just works.
Gate also allows you to go to a precise location, whereas if you Plane Shift without a teleportation circle as your destination, you could end up anywhere on that plane (narrowing it down as far as 'in or near a specified area the size of a city' at the GM's discretion).
(There's also the more obvious benefits of being able to summon another creature _to you_ with Gate, or transport more than 8 people.)
I'm not connected to the author of the adventure, but I am thankful Matt that you talked about the Arcane Library! I haven't bought the adventure you talked about, but I think I have about 15 of her adventures and just about every one of her adventures has been a total blast. I hope she gets more support because she makes awesome stuff.
Any DM's on here should definitely consider checking out that site if possible. My favorite so far has been The Monastery of the Shadow Sorcerers.
Thank you Matt! I will definitely check this adventure out!
High level play does take an entire mental shift in how you challenge the players.
I think you might have made a good case for MCDM monster design being a reason to run high level games: before, there was little motivation for DMs to want to do it. There’s nothing cool for them to bust out that a lower level party couldn’t already make mincemeat of.
But now that there’s more fun and effective super-end boss design, more campaigns might begin to be run at higher levels. DMs are players too, and need rewards for playing as much, if not more, than players do since they do more work than anyone else.
The idea that anyone would willingly stop such an adventure for something as mundane as *food* is utterly beyond me. 🤣 I just love the stories, Matt. Thanks!
Loved the story, loved how it evolved from a Danger Room to a campaign, and I especially loved how you ended with Din Thai Fung which is hands down my favorite place for dumplings. 😃
Man this is great, brings me back to the old days of Matt doing campaign diaries and me just imagining how cool it would be to play in this campaign. Would love to see this more and want more of this adventure!
Love high level dnd! I also love DMing it. You are basically playing anime in the final season, every session.
That's a dope story. Sounds like a lot of fun. I need to go back and watch the Chain. You have such a flair for drama and I need to get better at that
running a campaign for characters that are now beyond level 20 after two years (they are multiclassed, 16th level in main class anf 5th level in a second class) the party of 3 players completely stomped a tarrasque that i ran as maximally difficult as i am capable of doing
One of the better reasons to cast gate over a plane shift is you just need a diamond, not a specific tuning fork or a pair of tuning forks. So gate is your trunk card when enforcing material components and you don't have to have the right fork.
One of the most interesting aspects of this is so many of the players chose human as the character race/ancestry. This runs counter to almost every other experience, direct or virtual, I've had of 5E, as most 5E players I've known or watched seem to want to play anything BUT humans.
While in art school my Dm had me make four level 20 characters in 3.5 dnd and went into the epic level handbook. The characters lived until they hit level 28 until they all died in a vampire lair. It was only about ten sessions but those characters will live in my mind forever
So glad content is flowing again, love the dune series!!
My first character I played from 1st to 20th level. Part of our campaign at that point was being so powerful it was stupid, so we were doing stuff like sinking fleets of ships and fighting gods and felling kingdoms. High level DND is only boring if the fantasy presented by the DM is still assuming your players are low level, they just happen to be fighting CR 21 monsters. They can't run errands anymore, they're people of power and influence, which fundamentally changes the kind of challenges they face.
The problem is they can only fight so many world ending threats. If you are sinking a fleet the only options are entire armies or demigods. There comes a time where you really should just be playing a system thats better for it IE exalted.
@@user-dd9dh9kw5c Oh totally. You shouldn't just LINGER at 20th level. You cap your campaign, then go back to chasing goblins through the sewer. I just think a lot of people are frustrated about the culminations of their characters because it feels like the same stuff they've ALWAYS been doing.
Biggest takeaway? If 20th level characters don’t want to go through your dungeon, they’ll skip to the end, every time.
The resurrection is a real "rise my Galactus" moment
I would listen to Matt tell a story about waiting in line at the DMV
Start new campaign with characters based in an outer plane, but do not tell them. Most players assume they are in Prime, small hints ( for example native creatures to Elysium ) during adventuring and watching the players slowly become aware of where they are is AWESOME!
What a great voice you have! (And terrific content as well!)
What an awesome video. Thanks for posting this! Please do more!
High level D&D is so ridiculous. I'm in a pathfinder game at level 17 and the power levels are over9000. Fights are an exchange of one-shots and save-or-suck, and skill checks end in the 50's and 60's.
you can only compare that to 3.5e, not 5e. bounded accuracy has done away with checks being multiple times larger than the maximum roll of the original die being used.
I loved this thanks. It reminds me of your old d&d campaign diaries which I loved btw
Wow, how is it after 3 years watching you tube videos I've never come across you? Had it not been for another utuber mentioning you I'd still not know about you. Well you were highly recommended so I plan to check out much of your content.
You are a damn good DM, a great storyteller, and an awesome creator!
I am now fully aware of how rare it is that I've been part of a table who successfully played/ran multiple 1-20 games.
My group usually concludes the adventure before 20, but we've done multiple 1-18ish campaigns. Still pretty rare.
You guys truly are living your best life and I love to see it
Personally I like Diplomacy better because it seems to focus on being an intermediary or dealing with foreign or emotional differences.
But I'm also the guy who thinks deception should be folded into persuasion since lying is just persuading someone that a lie is true. A person good at persuasion would be good at deception.
This is now one of my favorite videos on this entire channel 😂😂
A vast majority of my builds (though not necessarily characters) are level 20. It's such a versatile level, you can make pretty much anything you want!
Want a character with 40 cantrips (including at-will spell effects)? Level 20's got you!
Want a character that can leap 594 feet in the air? Level 20, baby!
Want your character to always go first, no matter the occasion? Well, level 15 can get you there, but level 20 can get you there better!
So... No comment about hitting 2 million yet? Been waiting all day to hear from you!
Old-school vide from home. Nostalgic. cool Viper Probe Droid model in the background too! And the topic is fun. What not to love!
Diplomacy can also include veiled references to a Large Stick, wielded by you, or someone else. Thats why I like it!
My group plays pathfinder at level 20 for like 4 hours at least once every two years, since most our campaigns go to level 20, then shortly end.
The current campaign has us at level 22.
In fact, I once ran one to 30.
My friend group ran a level 20 AD&D2 one-shot back in the 90s, and we definitely spent more time making those characters than actually playing. It was pretty fun, although a botch sort of ruined my poor Paladin's cool moment.
To this day it's the only time we've played characters beyond 10th level, which is one reason I kind of soured on D&D as a whole.