[Gygax] horrified a few of the purists with one remark. Referring to the art of DM-ing, he told those assembled that a good referee only rolls the dice for the sound they make. He just decides what happens! You could have heard a pin drop... Ref: Imagine Magazine #2 May 1983. Paul Cockburn, the assistant editor, reflects on GamesFair '83, a gaming convention organized by TSR UK at Reading University.
I remember a member of one of the podcasts I follow, "Fear the Boot," had one of the hosts say words to this effect, and the table was surprised, but knew him well enough to know he played pretty above board, but the community went bananas over it. Some small few were like, "yeah, that makes sense." A lot were foaming at the mouth angry that he'd dare to impugn the sacred texts by doing this. His response, "then don't play at my table." We're playing make believe. The dice are only there to give the illusion of unbiased fairness.
I saw this comment whilst an advert was playing and I hadn’t seen the length of the video yet, and therefore thought “oh this must be like 15 minutes or something, shame I like his longer videos” how wrong I was lol
As a teacher, that bit about the Kriegsspiel was utterly revelatory to me. Of course the Referee is going to deliberately misinterpret orders! That's the purpose of the lesson! Students are supposed to be taught to give clear orders! Your referee, being your teacher, has a very good reason to punish students who are careless about their orders! Suddenly, this behavior is transplanted into dungeon exploration, and the "test" is now just... pointless. Unlike with real generals giving real military orders, nobody will get killed if you incorrectly describe how you're searching a room for magical treasure. No wonder that style of play is dying off!
Yeah, that's something people don't realize about "true" war games (those done within the military). Among other things, they're a training tool for officers. And giving clear and concise orders was and is crucial to success in actual war. But giving an order to, say, a platoon leader, is different from a rpg where you're essentially giving orders to *yourself*.
I don't remember if I say this in the video, but "closing the loop" was only ONE reason Gary was motivated to publish AD&D, the other famously being "Mine is the only credit of authorship." Currently listening to the quite good podcast: When We Were Wizards that goes over all this. Look for it wherever you get your podcasts!
I finished reading it a couple of days ago. As someone that has only been in the hobby for about 10 years, I only knew of the commonly presented narrative of "old school vs. new school", and all the arguments that break out over that. The book blew my mind, it proves that these discussions around RPG's have always been present, and that the nerds of 50 years ago created language and signifiers to communicate in ways that are still relevant today.
This video hit home. When I first got into TTRPGs, I’d look at modules like Tomb of Horrors with the iconic first entrance room- floor littered with pit traps, trapped doors, intricate details-and think, “How do you even run this?” I dove into old D&D lore, asked forums, quizzed DMs, all searching for the “right” way to run a dungeon. I wanted insider wisdom from those who played the classics or tournament games, convinced they had the secret sauce. Coming from structured games, the loose rules of RPGs felt overwhelming, and I still wrestle with the fear of “doing it wrong.” It's comforting to know even the early pioneers struggled with this too.
I just recently purchased a copy of the book after listening to you talk on stream. There's something so captivating about the diverse table culture that was present at that time, especially after I was led to believe that "well, actually, old dnd was played like THIS" for so many years.
They were already using the term "One True Way" at the time, and calling others out for it. Quote: Charlie Luce summarized the situation in 1976 with “I have seen in A&E quite a bit of what I call the ‘One True Way’ syndrome” (AE 13)
Then you made the right call. This aspect of the history of the hobby is much too interesting to have the waters be muddied with people arguing about the argument.
My brothers and I borrowed the original 3 booklets (and yes, they were basically a 'zine) from a friend. We made a dungeon, we did our best to make characters - and then were totally stumped when we ran into goblins and could not figure out how to fight them... the game could not be played as written, and truly was guidance for turning other games into a fantasy wargame. We ended up returning the books, drawing lots and lots of our own dungeons (the idea of having a team of folks raiding dungeons had caught our imagination) and finally found another set of rules (melee and wizard) and that we modified the crap out of to play our games, from fantasy to sci-fi. Some of what we did resembled theater of the mind, sometimes we used miniatures - but we were always improvising, discussing, inventing - and having a blast - right down to pulling pranks on one another (and their characters).
I've been making a joke in this vein this my first game of dnd.. Dungeon World. "if you aren't basically developing your own game halfway through the first session, are you really playing dnd?"
I love zines, and knowing that zines were so critical to my favorite hobby makes me happy. I hand-stitched a zine together of art of my dnd campaigns, for my players!! In some smaller fandoms today, or older/larger ones, zines are still popular, and it makes me happy whenever I see new zines being posted for.
There's a certain kind of video that explores the history of a hobby I'm into, from back when I was not into it (Or even born yet), that recontextualizes the relationships with fans of the era. I think it comes naturally to me to think that we were different, that people played different back then. The rules are not the same any more, so surely we the players aren't alike as well. But listening to these anecdotes, learning this history, it always warms me to learn that we were incredibly alike, and that if I played back then, or if these people played now, we would get along just fine, and still be friends. It makes me feel connected not just to the hobby, but to the history of it as well
this blew my mind! the craziest thing is: I think the ambiguity about what an RPG even is and how to play one is a big part of what makes the hobby so special. it means every player and GM has to grapple with those questions and develop their own philosophy of play, which eventually branches out into whole subcultures, styles and systems.
The nice thing about being part of this community is that over the course of a few months. I've heard bits and pieces of most of this, but these videos are where Matt polishes his ideas and puts them together and I always learn something new watching them. Very well done.
I played in the late 80s and 90s, and then a few years ago ran into a DM who still ran games in a super gotcha way. At first it was kinda cool playing that kind of old school but it got old fast. Your comment about "it was always a guy" working the game shops was so true. I don't think i saw a woman working at a game store until the 00s, and I remember it because it was so unusual even then.
At my first con, sometime in the early noughties, a grognard DM exemplified the turbo literal referee style that was just out of this world incomprehensible to me. One character got wounded. We bandaged him up to stop the bleeding, and went on with the journey. At the start of the next scene, a month later in-game, we're told that the arm has to be amputated because we never said we took off the bandage. They were absolutely real.
There's a documentary podcast called 'When we were wizards" that goes into the creation of DnD, the Gygax/Arneson relationship and early TSR stuff. Seems like DnD was kinda rushed because they had been playing it and spreading around notes in the community before they wrote all the rules, people wanted it in any shape they could get and there might have been a fear of someone beating them to the punch.
When I watched the D&D episode of Community, I was confused why Abed as the DM rolled all the dice, and I've always figured it was a change to keep things simpler for the sake of keeping the show moving. It's so incredibly interesting to learn that "no, this is just how some people thought you were supposed to play be played because the rules didn't actually tell you!"
Look at players who love insanely difficult video games where they die over and over and over again. Those players existed in the 70s. They just didn't have a video game. They had a d&d game where they had to say, "I check the under side of the chair", and got the immense satisfaction when the referee told them they found something.
I loved reading this book! I was absolutely blown away about how similar conversations continue to persist 50 years later. Thanks for making this vid to get more eyes on it!
Matt has mastered the art of pushing up your glasses while looking cool -- grasping the *side* of your glasses and moving it up in a way that looks deliberate.
Glad to know the fantasy football/competitive boardgamers arguing with the punkers, goths, and theater kids over whether playing or winning is the point....has always been one of the premiere arguments.
It's honestly hilarious that people are having the same discussions about what the point of DnD is and what "Intelligence" within the game means now and online on social media, that they were having across zines in the 70s. Completely different time, different medium, different people in all likelihood, but same discussions. And seemingly equally heated. It's all shit that I personally have more or less strong opinions on too.
to the conversation about what stats mean. especially the mental/social ones in games. I've always told my players "Please collaborate, offer suggestions, between all of you there isn't one person with a super-genius level intelligence but together maybe with a little help from me we can fake it"
Oh yeah, been playing since the late 70's, and as a player and GM, it was always about descriptions and articulating and interpreting between the players and the GM. Sadly, today there are still GM's who try to badly interpret what players say , and wonder why they have a hard time finding consistent players.
I'm so glad more young people are exposed to this old way of playing. I remember very clearly 2 times where this ambiguity fuckery was used against me. 1. I said I was going to go hit this goblin, and though I'd talked about how I was going to go around the horde between me and him, I did not say it. So the DM ruled that I just waded through 30 goblins getting 30 attacks of opportunity and essentially getting turned into paste. 2. I said I was going to disarm this trap at the back, and in doing so I tripped every trap between me and that one, getting blended in the process. (He ruled that I only saw the trap at the far end and none of the other ones.) They were good times, and they were bad times.
Hearing you call that first era an age of miracles was both incredibly moving, yet also bittersweet. The wild west of DnD, before it was even a game. But then I remember that with each new media and medium comes that same era once more. When everyone is an outsider because there is no established order. Thanks for the vid, Matt-I've had The Elusive Shift on my list since you first mentioned it, but now it's been bumped to the top.
to this day i describe every article of clothing and how i carry my weapons in all table top games because my DM would always claim "it must be in your backpack or at the inn because you did not tell me you put your shoes on"
One of your best videos, Matt. The best in a long time, I think. The passion, the preparation, the quotes, the consideration for various perspectives, and the connection to your *own* experiences all make for such a great video. Thanks for keeping up the quality and improving on earlier iterations over such a long TH-cam career.
When I was around 14-15 in the mid 80's, My two older brothers and I drove down to Origins in Baltimore. I remember sitting in the back seat, being rather confused and uncomfortable, as they got into a very heated argument, no, a FIGHT, about some of the very things you brought up in those zines. This was two guys who grew up in the same house, and they had polar opposite ideas on the Right Way to play DnD.
Man, I was still dealing with that "Simon Says" bullshit when I started playing in the late 90s/early 2000s. My first real D&D group broke up because the DM got mad that we told him to mentally append "I check for traps and then..." before every action our party took in the dungeons and that ruined the fun for him. Luckily, the guy who figured out this One Weird Trick took over and was a much better DM.
Yes, that was the laugh out loud line for me. Getting close to 60 in my case. Everyone who is not like Matt does not watch Matt, and we all know it. I'm finally the wargaming theater kid of everyone's dreams.
I love the part about roleplaying versus beating the dungeon. So different like modern games, like Burning Wheel, where playing your character’s flaws is strongly encouraged in the rules.
In Piaget's theory, around the age of 8, 'arguing about the rules of the game' becomes the game itself. Perhaps many people aren’t even trying to play the game the same way. Great video!
Yo, I started D&D in the late 90s and there were ABSOLUTELY GMs who would punish players for imprecise language like this, even then. They were often "Graybeards" as we called them at the time...do people still call older GMs who have been playing for many editions "Graybeards"? I think...I think maybe I'm a Graybeard now? Holy moley...TIME....TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEE...
So much like you, Matt, I came into D&D in the early 80's as a young kid. 1883 to be exact. However the guys that introduced me to the game were much older and had been playing for close tona decade by the time I started. Much of what you discussed in this video I heard around the table for the first few years of my D&D experience. Back then a lot of it was beyond me and once I got the basic box set and started collecting and the AD&D hardcover version of the game most of those earlier discussions I heard from my time with those older players faded away. I am very excited to read the book. Thanks for sharing it with us .
Regarding the 3rd person thing,, I still do that!! I switch back and forth between “I” and “[character name.]” I do this in part to remind myself that my character is different than myself and would often do things differently than I would, but it’s so fascinating to think that there were heated debates over which method was superior when they’re both just, valuable tools for describing and expressing character action.
If you enjoyed this video, I would recommend checking out the podcast Game Studies Study Buddies, specifically episodes 46-49 where they focus on TTRPGs. Episode 46 is also about The Elusive Shift but is well worth the time.
One of my favorite parts of one of Peterson's books was showing how due to the relatively insular nature of the hobby (most people only having exposure to the players in their area) it could be a big surprise going to one of the few gaming conventions across the country from you and finding out their "everybody plays this way" wildly differs from your area's "everybody plays this way."
I love random character creation, I am a Traveller player at heart, but its all about personal preference at the end of the day, It's interesting seeing "historical" conversations that just boil down to what preference players and DMs had at their table. It is alos wild how loose the old '74 DnD was.
Traveller is mentioned in the book several times. Before GDW released it in 77, they published a game in 75 called "En Garde!", right at that period where people starting refering to TTRPG's as "role-playing games" and trying to differentiate them from wargames, which includes some developers realizing the wargame they previously created was a role playing game all along. :D
I gotta admit, I was fully prepared to go "Wow that is some archaic stuff that sounds TOTALLY un-fun!" when Matt started reading up that "Sequence of play" thing... But much to my surprise, that sounds very reasonable! It allows for encounters that aren't just "and a thing attacks you", and opens up for negotiations, simply seeing a thing pass by, and other peaceful, non-hostile encounters.
As much as I love a lot about the OSR movement, there is a lot mythologizing about the early days of the hobby, or 'playing the game as Gary intended', as if these things were written in stone. The hobby has *always* been changing and *always* evolving; the version of the game you play says a lot more about you the player than it does about being historical or authentic.
Thank you Matt! You once said a while ago that you feel the "One Fighter at a time" series didn't add much to the community. I don't agree, I love watching that series over and over and exploring the history of our hobby. And this video just adds to that awesome collection. I look forward to more in the future!
Fascinating discussion! I asked for the elusive shift for Christmas because of this! The fact that there is NO old school style of play was a huge eye-opener to me. Make me feel free to basicaly take the rules at face value and then use them how I like rather than trying to fit some expected play style
So I started playing in 80s as well. I definitely have seen Dms trying to trip up players over unclear statements. There also was the reverse. Clever players would start asking the Dm really specific details about the environment in a dungeon. I mean really specific. They idea is the same, trying to trip them up. They would look for every advantage. Those sort of games were almost more like chess matches.
I remember hearing about the money problems of "making boxed sets to pay for the previous boxed set" and that being one of the reasons why, when TSR made an offer to WotC to buy them, WotC's counter offer was to buy out TSR instead.
Got the Illusive Shift after you raved about it on livestreams. It really blew my mind. I actually read most of it out loud because it was delighting my 3 year old... which is wild because it's at least as high brow as the most academic texts I read in college. 😂
Re: character vs player, I think the ultimate ends of this spectrum are Pendragon and its system of Passions that give a mechanical representation to a character's personality and the OSR movement and many of those GMs actively discarding any mechanical systems involving mental or social interactions.
I started it after hearing you talk about it in a stream, but I did put it down. I'll probably finish it sometime but it ws super academic, it was presented more as a research paper than a documentary
i played with a dm in 2023 who still played with the "well you didn't say you checked behind the door as you opened it so the goblins get a surprise attack against you" and like. how tf am i supposed to check behind a door i am currently opening
You're comment on the AD&D books is SPOT ON. I was introduced to RPGs with the Moldvay D&D boxed set when I was 10 years old. When I got to high school and met the very few other people in my town of 6000 playing D&D, I read the AD&D 1E books and knew right then these were terrible to run. The D&D Basic/Expert game was much, much easier to actually play around a table.
I find it really funny how half the people back then were like, "How am I supposed to run my character if I don't even know what I can do?" Meanwhile, almost half of the D&D 5e players I met before I left that game behind never had any clue about how their class abilities worked, and the DM basically had to know how to play their characters for them. Everything from monks not knowing how flurry of blows works to spellcasters never reading what their spells actually do before casting them. Basically, every single group I played in had at least a couple of players like that. Most of them weren't new players either. They just never saw any reason not to expect the DM to keep babysitting them and sort of just assumed its their job to know how your character works. I rarely, if ever see similar behaviour in other RPGs. Probably because finding a group for anything other than 5e takes so long that you need to be pretty invested in the game before you even try to LGG for it.
You usually give the gold of the video right from the start, and elaborate after, instead of saving to reveal in the last second. But this video is all gold. I NEED to read this book. You are pitching this better than yours! :D
In the UK we had "The Beholder", "Trollcrusher", "Underworld Oracle", and "Demonsblood" (amongst others). It can be argued that Games Workshop's "White Dwarf" was a fanzine in the early days before it became a house magazine for selling Warhammer product, but it was a cut above the litho'd pamphlets.
White Dwarf was a place for this kind of debate since the very first issue, where a contributor called Lewis Pulsipher writes the first article of a series on the philosophy of DnD campaings.
You know, I'm a former 5e DM, and I'm certainly gearing up to run my first OD&D campaign. Reading through the 3 LBBs, I'm not so sure the assertion that OD&D isn't a complete game is correct... at least, not anymore. Rules gaps and weird spots can be patched with Chainmail, rules from later editions, and houserules. Despite the age, the edition appeals to me greatly. I can't wait for a Fighting Man player to pick up an intelligent sword, or to be challenged by the lord of a castle they pass to a joust. It seems to have a lot of personality (especially in regards to outdoor generation).
This is a really special video. I like how you leave some of the material to discover. It's fascinating that a lot of the Zine content isn't digitalized. I am the farthest thing from a wargamer.. but... I recently saw a terrific video that may interest you on the long long arc of wargaming and the way the military now use it and modern gaming for scenarios. The concept of unambiguous commands as a necessary skill and the idea of learning (eg. about silver and werewolves) seem to belong to this element that is about non-fun skill, and that turns up in Matrix Refereed in modern scenarioing.. where players will not always know the rules or be doing the roles.. The video is titled The Games Behind Your Country's Next War by People Make Games. It is a long format video. Of course I am glad myself that D&D now focusses on players and Roleplaying... but it is fascinating to think about those early times.. and see those other directions as options that could not then be discounted out of hand. Love your style and even after all this time you still strengthen the craft of your composition and delivery. What a gift! Thanks again. and for all your videos. But this is extra special.
[Gygax] horrified a few of the purists with one remark. Referring to the art of DM-ing, he told those assembled that a good referee only rolls the dice for the sound they make. He just decides what happens! You could have heard a pin drop...
Ref: Imagine Magazine #2 May 1983. Paul Cockburn, the assistant editor, reflects on GamesFair '83, a gaming convention organized by TSR UK at Reading University.
Tfw you roll the dice and don't even look down at them before explaining what happens next, 😨
Yupp unless the whole arc has been a low roll slog there is no fun in shit stomping a boss who can't hit you back
Learned this on my second or third ever session. Fun and believeable stories beats reality anyday. Gyxgax was the man.
I remember a member of one of the podcasts I follow, "Fear the Boot," had one of the hosts say words to this effect, and the table was surprised, but knew him well enough to know he played pretty above board, but the community went bananas over it. Some small few were like, "yeah, that makes sense." A lot were foaming at the mouth angry that he'd dare to impugn the sacred texts by doing this. His response, "then don't play at my table."
We're playing make believe. The dice are only there to give the illusion of unbiased fairness.
@@michaelmarsh1723 The die is still rolling and you're already telling them what happened.
Finally, the long awaited return of the Colville short video
AGREE 1000%!!!
I saw this comment whilst an advert was playing and I hadn’t seen the length of the video yet, and therefore thought “oh this must be like 15 minutes or something, shame I like his longer videos” how wrong I was lol
😂
Rekt
Its as long as it needs to be 😊
As a teacher, that bit about the Kriegsspiel was utterly revelatory to me. Of course the Referee is going to deliberately misinterpret orders! That's the purpose of the lesson! Students are supposed to be taught to give clear orders! Your referee, being your teacher, has a very good reason to punish students who are careless about their orders!
Suddenly, this behavior is transplanted into dungeon exploration, and the "test" is now just... pointless. Unlike with real generals giving real military orders, nobody will get killed if you incorrectly describe how you're searching a room for magical treasure. No wonder that style of play is dying off!
Yeah, that's something people don't realize about "true" war games (those done within the military). Among other things, they're a training tool for officers. And giving clear and concise orders was and is crucial to success in actual war.
But giving an order to, say, a platoon leader, is different from a rpg where you're essentially giving orders to *yourself*.
I don't remember if I say this in the video, but "closing the loop" was only ONE reason Gary was motivated to publish AD&D, the other famously being "Mine is the only credit of authorship."
Currently listening to the quite good podcast: When We Were Wizards that goes over all this. Look for it wherever you get your podcasts!
Thankyou for recommending this
“There was no old guard”. This is such an eye-opening revelation to me. It makes the release of AD&D all the more interesting
I finished reading it a couple of days ago. As someone that has only been in the hobby for about 10 years, I only knew of the commonly presented narrative of "old school vs. new school", and all the arguments that break out over that. The book blew my mind, it proves that these discussions around RPG's have always been present, and that the nerds of 50 years ago created language and signifiers to communicate in ways that are still relevant today.
YES!
Only 10 years! I’ve been around for only a bit longer than that and I feel like a grizzled vet.
The part about "roleplaying is considered bad sportsmanship" remainds me a lot of the video about "why it rude to suck at warcraft"
I feel like Dan Olson and Matt Colville met, in the right circumstances, they'd have a really interesting conversation.
This video hit home. When I first got into TTRPGs, I’d look at modules like Tomb of Horrors with the iconic first entrance room- floor littered with pit traps, trapped doors, intricate details-and think, “How do you even run this?” I dove into old D&D lore, asked forums, quizzed DMs, all searching for the “right” way to run a dungeon. I wanted insider wisdom from those who played the classics or tournament games, convinced they had the secret sauce. Coming from structured games, the loose rules of RPGs felt overwhelming, and I still wrestle with the fear of “doing it wrong.” It's comforting to know even the early pioneers struggled with this too.
Matt: "no idea if this is going to be a long video or not"
Me, double checking the timestamp: "oh."
Love that you can draw a direct line between Prussian war games to train new officers and modern D&D
I just recently purchased a copy of the book after listening to you talk on stream. There's something so captivating about the diverse table culture that was present at that time, especially after I was led to believe that "well, actually, old dnd was played like THIS" for so many years.
That's the amusing part. Sure, it was definitely played like that. It was also played a lot of other ways
They were already using the term "One True Way" at the time, and calling others out for it.
Quote: Charlie Luce summarized the situation in 1976 with “I have seen in A&E quite a bit of what I call the ‘One True Way’ syndrome” (AE 13)
Gotta love it when Matt throws out multiple possible titles for the new video on stream and it ends up being none of them.
All the other ideas we had for titles would have gotten us more engagement, but it would have been the wrong kind of attention.
Then you made the right call. This aspect of the history of the hobby is much too interesting to have the waters be muddied with people arguing about the argument.
My brothers and I borrowed the original 3 booklets (and yes, they were basically a 'zine) from a friend. We made a dungeon, we did our best to make characters - and then were totally stumped when we ran into goblins and could not figure out how to fight them... the game could not be played as written, and truly was guidance for turning other games into a fantasy wargame. We ended up returning the books, drawing lots and lots of our own dungeons (the idea of having a team of folks raiding dungeons had caught our imagination) and finally found another set of rules (melee and wizard) and that we modified the crap out of to play our games, from fantasy to sci-fi. Some of what we did resembled theater of the mind, sometimes we used miniatures - but we were always improvising, discussing, inventing - and having a blast - right down to pulling pranks on one another (and their characters).
This has been a great topic of conversation in the community, I hope it remains so as it escapes containment.
Having a "gotcha" DM was what inspired me to become a DM myself.
It inspired me to say, "what a douche nozzle, I'm never gonna treat my players like that."
I just finished my first draw steel adventure on saturday! so much fun!
Glad you had fun!
For anyone who plays in multiple groups, it shouldn’t require much extrapolation to realize that each table is a game unto itself.
I've been making a joke in this vein this my first game of dnd.. Dungeon World. "if you aren't basically developing your own game halfway through the first session, are you really playing dnd?"
@@dadefrost2059 That may have been what Gygax was doing. :D
I love zines, and knowing that zines were so critical to my favorite hobby makes me happy. I hand-stitched a zine together of art of my dnd campaigns, for my players!! In some smaller fandoms today, or older/larger ones, zines are still popular, and it makes me happy whenever I see new zines being posted for.
My name isn’t Thee Hence, but I still appreciate Matt saying hi to me.
00:40 Narrator voice: It was, in fact, not a short video
There's a certain kind of video that explores the history of a hobby I'm into, from back when I was not into it (Or even born yet), that recontextualizes the relationships with fans of the era. I think it comes naturally to me to think that we were different, that people played different back then. The rules are not the same any more, so surely we the players aren't alike as well. But listening to these anecdotes, learning this history, it always warms me to learn that we were incredibly alike, and that if I played back then, or if these people played now, we would get along just fine, and still be friends. It makes me feel connected not just to the hobby, but to the history of it as well
this blew my mind! the craziest thing is: I think the ambiguity about what an RPG even is and how to play one is a big part of what makes the hobby so special. it means every player and GM has to grapple with those questions and develop their own philosophy of play, which eventually branches out into whole subcultures, styles and systems.
The nice thing about being part of this community is that over the course of a few months. I've heard bits and pieces of most of this, but these videos are where Matt polishes his ideas and puts them together and I always learn something new watching them. Very well done.
I played in the late 80s and 90s, and then a few years ago ran into a DM who still ran games in a super gotcha way. At first it was kinda cool playing that kind of old school but it got old fast.
Your comment about "it was always a guy" working the game shops was so true. I don't think i saw a woman working at a game store until the 00s, and I remember it because it was so unusual even then.
Elusive shift is a great book, I am so happy Matt talked about it!
At my first con, sometime in the early noughties, a grognard DM exemplified the turbo literal referee style that was just out of this world incomprehensible to me.
One character got wounded. We bandaged him up to stop the bleeding, and went on with the journey. At the start of the next scene, a month later in-game, we're told that the arm has to be amputated because we never said we took off the bandage.
They were absolutely real.
Hoping this reaches people in the broader ttrpg space. It's such a fundamental misunderstanding! Great video
It appears that D&D was originally created as an expansion pack for other games without expressly stating so, for legal purposes.
Yeah, the same way we got DotA, Counter Strike, never thought of that!
There's a documentary podcast called 'When we were wizards" that goes into the creation of DnD, the Gygax/Arneson relationship and early TSR stuff. Seems like DnD was kinda rushed because they had been playing it and spreading around notes in the community before they wrote all the rules, people wanted it in any shape they could get and there might have been a fear of someone beating them to the punch.
They very explicitly state it to be an expansion to Chainmail.
When I watched the D&D episode of Community, I was confused why Abed as the DM rolled all the dice, and I've always figured it was a change to keep things simpler for the sake of keeping the show moving. It's so incredibly interesting to learn that "no, this is just how some people thought you were supposed to play be played because the rules didn't actually tell you!"
Look at players who love insanely difficult video games where they die over and over and over again. Those players existed in the 70s. They just didn't have a video game. They had a d&d game where they had to say, "I check the under side of the chair", and got the immense satisfaction when the referee told them they found something.
I'll be watching this later tonight, but I love The Elusive Shift and the history of the hobby! Excited to learn more.
I loved reading this book! I was absolutely blown away about how similar conversations continue to persist 50 years later. Thanks for making this vid to get more eyes on it!
Matt has mastered the art of pushing up your glasses while looking cool -- grasping the *side* of your glasses and moving it up in a way that looks deliberate.
I don't know any other channel where, if a title starts with "Arguing..." I would say, "...and it's 50 minutes long? Hell yeah!"
"8 minutes in and I haven't even started on the point yet." When I knew it was going to be a good one.
Glad to know the fantasy football/competitive boardgamers arguing with the punkers, goths, and theater kids over whether playing or winning is the point....has always been one of the premiere arguments.
It's honestly hilarious that people are having the same discussions about what the point of DnD is and what "Intelligence" within the game means now and online on social media, that they were having across zines in the 70s. Completely different time, different medium, different people in all likelihood, but same discussions. And seemingly equally heated. It's all shit that I personally have more or less strong opinions on too.
D&D in the 70s? I was there, Gandalf. Little box. Three booklets. Those were the days.
to the conversation about what stats mean. especially the mental/social ones in games. I've always told my players "Please collaborate, offer suggestions, between all of you there isn't one person with a super-genius level intelligence but together maybe with a little help from me we can fake it"
Oh yeah, been playing since the late 70's, and as a player and GM, it was always about descriptions and articulating and interpreting between the players and the GM. Sadly, today there are still GM's who try to badly interpret what players say , and wonder why they have a hard time finding consistent players.
I'm so glad more young people are exposed to this old way of playing. I remember very clearly 2 times where this ambiguity fuckery was used against me.
1. I said I was going to go hit this goblin, and though I'd talked about how I was going to go around the horde between me and him, I did not say it. So the DM ruled that I just waded through 30 goblins getting 30 attacks of opportunity and essentially getting turned into paste.
2. I said I was going to disarm this trap at the back, and in doing so I tripped every trap between me and that one, getting blended in the process. (He ruled that I only saw the trap at the far end and none of the other ones.)
They were good times, and they were bad times.
Hearing you call that first era an age of miracles was both incredibly moving, yet also bittersweet. The wild west of DnD, before it was even a game. But then I remember that with each new media and medium comes that same era once more. When everyone is an outsider because there is no established order. Thanks for the vid, Matt-I've had The Elusive Shift on my list since you first mentioned it, but now it's been bumped to the top.
to this day i describe every article of clothing and how i carry my weapons in all table top games because my DM would always claim "it must be in your backpack or at the inn because you did not tell me you put your shoes on"
One of your best videos, Matt. The best in a long time, I think. The passion, the preparation, the quotes, the consideration for various perspectives, and the connection to your *own* experiences all make for such a great video. Thanks for keeping up the quality and improving on earlier iterations over such a long TH-cam career.
This is why all the games I get come with the Golden Rule: Change it if you want to.
I forget how much I miss Uncle Matt until he reemerges and I drink it up like a thirsty borracho 🍻
I fucking love this! Sending to my whole dnd group post haste
When I was around 14-15 in the mid 80's, My two older brothers and I drove down to Origins in Baltimore. I remember sitting in the back seat, being rather confused and uncomfortable, as they got into a very heated argument, no, a FIGHT, about some of the very things you brought up in those zines. This was two guys who grew up in the same house, and they had polar opposite ideas on the Right Way to play DnD.
Man, I was still dealing with that "Simon Says" bullshit when I started playing in the late 90s/early 2000s. My first real D&D group broke up because the DM got mad that we told him to mentally append "I check for traps and then..." before every action our party took in the dungeons and that ruined the fun for him. Luckily, the guy who figured out this One Weird Trick took over and was a much better DM.
“If you’re like me, which you are” I guess it’s good that I, a college student, felt like a forty-something man since the day I was born
Yes, that was the laugh out loud line for me. Getting close to 60 in my case. Everyone who is not like Matt does not watch Matt, and we all know it.
I'm finally the wargaming theater kid of everyone's dreams.
I love the part about roleplaying versus beating the dungeon. So different like modern games, like Burning Wheel, where playing your character’s flaws is strongly encouraged in the rules.
In Piaget's theory, around the age of 8, 'arguing about the rules of the game' becomes the game itself. Perhaps many people aren’t even trying to play the game the same way. Great video!
Yo, I started D&D in the late 90s and there were ABSOLUTELY GMs who would punish players for imprecise language like this, even then. They were often "Graybeards" as we called them at the time...do people still call older GMs who have been playing for many editions "Graybeards"? I think...I think maybe I'm a Graybeard now? Holy moley...TIME....TIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEE...
So much like you, Matt, I came into D&D in the early 80's as a young kid. 1883 to be exact. However the guys that introduced me to the game were much older and had been playing for close tona decade by the time I started. Much of what you discussed in this video I heard around the table for the first few years of my D&D experience. Back then a lot of it was beyond me and once I got the basic box set and started collecting and the AD&D hardcover version of the game most of those earlier discussions I heard from my time with those older players faded away. I am very excited to read the book. Thanks for sharing it with us .
"You have read Arduin?" "Yes." "That is not how we play."
Regarding the 3rd person thing,, I still do that!! I switch back and forth between “I” and “[character name.]”
I do this in part to remind myself that my character is different than myself and would often do things differently than I would, but it’s so fascinating to think that there were heated debates over which method was superior when they’re both just, valuable tools for describing and expressing character action.
If you enjoyed this video, I would recommend checking out the podcast Game Studies Study Buddies, specifically episodes 46-49 where they focus on TTRPGs. Episode 46 is also about The Elusive Shift but is well worth the time.
One of my favorite parts of one of Peterson's books was showing how due to the relatively insular nature of the hobby (most people only having exposure to the players in their area) it could be a big surprise going to one of the few gaming conventions across the country from you and finding out their "everybody plays this way" wildly differs from your area's "everybody plays this way."
I love random character creation, I am a Traveller player at heart, but its all about personal preference at the end of the day, It's interesting seeing "historical" conversations that just boil down to what preference players and DMs had at their table. It is alos wild how loose the old '74 DnD was.
Traveller is mentioned in the book several times. Before GDW released it in 77, they published a game in 75 called "En Garde!", right at that period where people starting refering to TTRPG's as "role-playing games" and trying to differentiate them from wargames, which includes some developers realizing the wargame they previously created was a role playing game all along. :D
I gotta admit, I was fully prepared to go "Wow that is some archaic stuff that sounds TOTALLY un-fun!" when Matt started reading up that "Sequence of play" thing... But much to my surprise, that sounds very reasonable! It allows for encounters that aren't just "and a thing attacks you", and opens up for negotiations, simply seeing a thing pass by, and other peaceful, non-hostile encounters.
As much as I love a lot about the OSR movement, there is a lot mythologizing about the early days of the hobby, or 'playing the game as Gary intended', as if these things were written in stone.
The hobby has *always* been changing and *always* evolving; the version of the game you play says a lot more about you the player than it does about being historical or authentic.
It still amazes me that there are people who go to college to learn game design.
Thank you Matt! You once said a while ago that you feel the "One Fighter at a time" series didn't add much to the community. I don't agree, I love watching that series over and over and exploring the history of our hobby. And this video just adds to that awesome collection. I look forward to more in the future!
Oh, man.
Blast from the past there, seeing those APAs.
If anyone is interested in my copies of Alarums & Excursions and many other zines, holler.
Fascinating discussion! I asked for the elusive shift for Christmas because of this! The fact that there is NO old school style of play was a huge eye-opener to me. Make me feel free to basicaly take the rules at face value and then use them how I like rather than trying to fit some expected play style
So I started playing in 80s as well. I definitely have seen Dms trying to trip up players over unclear statements. There also was the reverse. Clever players would start asking the Dm really specific details about the environment in a dungeon. I mean really specific. They idea is the same, trying to trip them up. They would look for every advantage. Those sort of games were almost more like chess matches.
Everyone plays Catan the same way. Every game experiences the "Wood for sheep" joke.
I remember hearing about the money problems of "making boxed sets to pay for the previous boxed set" and that being one of the reasons why, when TSR made an offer to WotC to buy them, WotC's counter offer was to buy out TSR instead.
Got the Illusive Shift after you raved about it on livestreams. It really blew my mind.
I actually read most of it out loud because it was delighting my 3 year old... which is wild because it's at least as high brow as the most academic texts I read in college. 😂
Yay new video an engaging topic and hopefully discussion!
Re: character vs player, I think the ultimate ends of this spectrum are Pendragon and its system of Passions that give a mechanical representation to a character's personality and the OSR movement and many of those GMs actively discarding any mechanical systems involving mental or social interactions.
Can't express how excited I am to see that this is in no way of short video
I started it after hearing you talk about it in a stream, but I did put it down. I'll probably finish it sometime but it ws super academic, it was presented more as a research paper than a documentary
If Matt made a video about Terry Pratchett I would weep with joy
Weep uncontrollably with joy
i played with a dm in 2023 who still played with the "well you didn't say you checked behind the door as you opened it so the goblins get a surprise attack against you" and like. how tf am i supposed to check behind a door i am currently opening
Referring to the 70’s as the age of miracles has this mythic ring to it, like it was the age when magic and myth still existed
Always fantastic uncle Matt, the history is always fascinating
Nice callout to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, amazing record. Also I'm getting this book for Christmas and so excited to read it!
This has been throughly enjoying to see constructed during the twitch steams.
You're comment on the AD&D books is SPOT ON. I was introduced to RPGs with the Moldvay D&D boxed set when I was 10 years old. When I got to high school and met the very few other people in my town of 6000 playing D&D, I read the AD&D 1E books and knew right then these were terrible to run. The D&D Basic/Expert game was much, much easier to actually play around a table.
I find it really funny how half the people back then were like, "How am I supposed to run my character if I don't even know what I can do?" Meanwhile, almost half of the D&D 5e players I met before I left that game behind never had any clue about how their class abilities worked, and the DM basically had to know how to play their characters for them.
Everything from monks not knowing how flurry of blows works to spellcasters never reading what their spells actually do before casting them. Basically, every single group I played in had at least a couple of players like that. Most of them weren't new players either. They just never saw any reason not to expect the DM to keep babysitting them and sort of just assumed its their job to know how your character works.
I rarely, if ever see similar behaviour in other RPGs. Probably because finding a group for anything other than 5e takes so long that you need to be pretty invested in the game before you even try to LGG for it.
This is highly intriguing! I will have to check out the book
Always happy with a new upload 😊
You usually give the gold of the video right from the start, and elaborate after, instead of saving to reveal in the last second. But this video is all gold. I NEED to read this book. You are pitching this better than yours! :D
Nice! Literally a few hours ago I thought a new Uncle Matt Video would be nice
I need this book for Christmas
This sounds like how every once in a while a bunch of people realize that the other half wipes while sitting down.
In the UK we had "The Beholder", "Trollcrusher", "Underworld Oracle", and "Demonsblood" (amongst others). It can be argued that Games Workshop's "White Dwarf" was a fanzine in the early days before it became a house magazine for selling Warhammer product, but it was a cut above the litho'd pamphlets.
White Dwarf was a place for this kind of debate since the very first issue, where a contributor called Lewis Pulsipher writes the first article of a series on the philosophy of DnD campaings.
Ahhhh the return of uncle Matt's short videos ❤ feels like a methorical coming home
I think there is a DIY Renaissance taking place. The gaming 'zine market is stronger than ever.
Dusk Book 2 confirmed?!?! Even if we never see any of it, I'm happy it's going to exist
Nice to see you excited to run :)
I, on your recommendion bought and read through this book over September and really enjoyed it
You know, I'm a former 5e DM, and I'm certainly gearing up to run my first OD&D campaign. Reading through the 3 LBBs, I'm not so sure the assertion that OD&D isn't a complete game is correct... at least, not anymore. Rules gaps and weird spots can be patched with Chainmail, rules from later editions, and houserules.
Despite the age, the edition appeals to me greatly. I can't wait for a Fighting Man player to pick up an intelligent sword, or to be challenged by the lord of a castle they pass to a joust. It seems to have a lot of personality (especially in regards to outdoor generation).
Ye boi, welcome back! Keen for draw steel
Saw the sneak peak into the script on stream. So excited to be watching this video now.
All back issues of ALARUMS AND EXCURSIONS (311 of them) are available as PDF. Lee Gold is still doing it.
This is a really special video. I like how you leave some of the material to discover. It's fascinating that a lot of the Zine content isn't digitalized.
I am the farthest thing from a wargamer.. but...
I recently saw a terrific video that may interest you on the long long arc of wargaming and the way the military now use it and modern gaming for scenarios. The concept of unambiguous commands as a necessary skill and the idea of learning (eg. about silver and werewolves) seem to belong to this element that is about non-fun skill, and that turns up in Matrix Refereed in modern scenarioing.. where players will not always know the rules or be doing the roles..
The video is titled The Games Behind Your Country's Next War by People Make Games. It is a long format video.
Of course I am glad myself that D&D now focusses on players and Roleplaying... but it is fascinating to think about those early times.. and see those other directions as options that could not then be discounted out of hand.
Love your style and even after all this time you still strengthen the craft of your composition and delivery.
What a gift! Thanks again. and for all your videos. But this is extra special.
"I don't know if this will be a long video" I know, it will be, luckily it's also a very interesting video so it's worth it lol
i’m reading it right now, so i’ll have to save this video for later so i don’t have any bias. look forward to learning your insights though!