"The threats that are needed to really challenge [Tier 4 characters] are gonna be world-shaking things." Are y'all telling me D&D is a shonen anime with a REALLY BAD escalation problem?
Once in a 4th edition campaign, around 15th level, we killed an Elf queen who we were terrified of seeing again. Our druid turned into a tiger, ate her, shat her into a bag of holding, and carried it around for three months.
Bad guys resurrecting each other. Great idea! It seems so obvious, but it had never occurred to me. LOL. Now I can’t wait to spring this on my players. I’m only now starting to get my groups into the 12+ levels, and the information in this discussion is awesome. It’ll definitely be useful. Thanks, guys!
Matthews Mercers way of turning all resurrection spells into a skill challenge ritual have worked good in my games to counter spamming revivify. Death really becomes something dangerous for low to mid level tiers. Then at higher tiers the dead pc's soul might get trapped by a demon or necromancer that wants the strong souls power.
I've never been a fan of his rituals mechanically. In practice with his players, (who are actors) it creates fantastic drama. However, as a DM I would hate to have my player's spells not work properly due to what I believe to be some misguided perspective that 'resurrection counters death, so death is never a problem'. Considering all of the options at my disposal as a DM just using spells and lead walls or the like, without homebrewing or changing a single thing, there are many ways to make death more of a complication than "do we have the money for a diamond? Yeah? Okay no problem then." Mind you, I'm a huge fan of Critical Role and absolutely love it. I've been watching faithfully since it first started. My opinion above isn't some hate against the show or MM's rituals, it's just an opinion.
@@JeremyTheGraten the death mechanics has nothing to do with there being actors, it has to do with each time resurrection is used, the DC they have to beat becomes higher, which increases the challenge, rather then making it all the same. in addition, when you tie in other worldly beings who are interested in the souls of the party members, it adds another layer of challenge.
Never apologize for stating an opinion. If it offends someone that you disagree with them, too bad. People these days need to understand an opinion is not a fact, not a personal attack, its just an opinion, nether right or wrong.
My first (and my brothers and friends) high lvl characters were 15th lvl when we were in 6th grade (1982). They were badly played, overpowered, unbalanced and hella fun!! I've learned since then and learned alot more than just gaming too. I liken high level play to war...so read Sun Tzu's Art of War: "to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting." I think it's important to remember that the opposing forces (NPC's, badguys, monsters, their own inner demons, and demons/devils) all have a will of their own and are doing and moving too. Have a plan that they are following that changes as the players make moves int he world or even change the world around them. High level play can be fun....divination and other stuff that gives players advantages....the baddies have em too :)
All of those elements are what make high level play so much fun! The PCs don't exist in a vacuum, and the higher level they are, the more they have to be proactive in eliminating threats.
Fun for a DM too. I permanently killed an asshole pc by having a fellow pc kinder pick his statuette of wish from his pocket during our 12-15 level dragonlance campaign in 1990
I've played only one Epic-level campaign, and that became a Nordic mythology-based event. Compared to just the two examples brought up here (wedding crasher, kill Orcus), I hereby bow to the superior campaign ideas. My DM back then was obviously nowhere near to your level Jim. Truly Epic. Great video.
Ehh it's Mike! Nice to see one of my favourite commenters on one of my favourite channels. Hope to see your wisdom and experience detailed in the comments of these nice fellows video playlist from now on. ;)
I recently joined an Epic level campaign. The gm is starting us at lvl 20. For some reason he allowed me to get the demigod template AND THAN GAVE ME DIVINE RANKS. My character is now pun pun.
In Brondel's defense, he genuinely wooed her before sealing the deal with the potion. It was insurance!! Totes tried to bury her whole family alive, tho.
Oathbreaker pally. And Brondel rolled something like a 32 on his Cha check to woo the princess. Also performed three feats of strength in front of her, besting the other dwarves- wrestling, axe throwing, and meat pie eating.
Seems legit. Heard a Fighter/Bladelock idea I liked where the patron is his wife. Who just so happens to be a high-tier Succubus. It'd be fun to role-play I think
I only just recently discovered this channel and I gotta say, I really can't sing it's praises enough. Already you guys have given so much inspiration for my weekly game and even though I've been rolling dice for a decade now there are these seeds you plant for settings, monsters etc. that provide new creative perspectives. One thing I would love to see from you guys is a sort of 'Web DM Workshop' series, which would be all about practical, simple things to really get DMs hands dirty. Maybe a list of cool traps to use in certain different dungeons? A way to inject roleplaying into dungeons (or at least stop sessions from becoming boring slaughterfests)? Little tips to get your players into the game and roleplaying more? Maybe videos on designing more interesting, dynamic, tactical encounters? How to design a good murder mystery? I'm waxing lyrical and rambling a bit here but I'd love to see how you guys run your games at the meat-and-potatoes bare-bones level. Subscribed and can't wait for more videos!
Have you checked out our Curse of Razel-Sinn series? It's a taste (even if somewhat stiff and artificial) of how I run my games. The workshop series you describe is a a great idea though. Our biggest constraint right now is time.
Here are two other significant considerations. First, after about level 7-9, it becomes possible for full casters especially to overcome any challenge. Seriously, you can Planar Bind a genie and Wish for the resources to do pretty much anything, potentially including Wishing more. Barring abuses of the timeless nature of the Astral Plane and the like, the one limiting feature here is time. Being higher level simply means you can do things faster, that you need less prep time. But to fully exert your power you need time unopposed by outside forces that drain your resources. As PCs facing a villain, you need to be the one draining their resources, denying them the prep time needed to complete their dastardly plot. And if you as PCs take time away from adventuring to sit back and plot and prepare, then the villain is just going to go ahead and win. Hell, when the party is sitting in their Rope Trick recovering their spell slots, the villain will simply go ahead and win. When the movers and shakers of the world deign to move, everyone is forced into a game of speed chess. Artificers aren't going to complete their new items, the party is not going to be able to rest and recover daily resources. Full stop. Unless you cheat and abuse time manipulation of course, but if the PCs can do it and are prepared to open that can of worms, then so can the villains. Secondly, the rules as written really de-emphasise collateral damage. 5th has generally nerfed power levels such that one usually isn't capable of significant collateral damage, but 3rd especially was kind of notorious in that colossal creatures needed special feats and class features and the like for the 50' sword they might be swinging to deal damage to more than precisely the one creature they are targeting (or Fireball being specifically engineered to not have any of the side effects of an explosion). 5e maintains this pattern by for example damage capping dynamite, no matter how much you throw at the problem. In high level play you either have to learn to live with these limitations and work around them, acknowledging that D&D physics are simply fundamentally alien, or you will have to ignore those limitations and embrace the fact of life that if you aren't careful, you will collapse the dungeon in on your head, which you may or may not be able to survive but will certainly make looting the place much more arduous.
On the issue of keeping tabs on powerful wizards, Dragonalnce dealt with the issue quite well with the Wizards of High Sorcery, where even there evil members had rules that they were expected to follow lest they be labeled a renegade and hunted down by the entire order.
this is a really good video. the epic epilogue descriptions you gave were exactly what i like about dnd! things aren't exactly random, but you end up in these crazy story schemes. also yesss to 0 level sessions. character building in my group is so fragmented in my group because we all have different ideas of how to plan out our characters and backstories.
Planescape and Dark Sun make great settings for having high level characters continue to adventure with that low level feeling. In the various D&D novels we see all these epic heroes having fairly normal adventures, just with higher stakes. Allowing domain play is a great option to give a player, but just because a player has the notoriety and influence that doesn't mean they should be forced into retirement. And as Hugo Strange constantly points out, heroes of great power attract villains of great power.
2E had a lot of content for high level play and an excellent source book devoted to high level play. I've run numerous high level 2E D&D games included some set in Dark Sun.
Your players had to have done really well in order to play some high level games in dark sun. In one of the campaigns I was a player in, it was a -1 level penalty on death and remaking a new character, to a minimum of level 3, and we always died before we could make it to 7th level, we had one Mul Gladiator make it to 7th level, only to fight 40 gith on his own and die.
Psionisists are very powerful and people never really delved into the class. Thrikeen fighter/Psionisist with Psycometbalism was just a beast. Kinetic energy control was very good along with energy containment and accelerate. They were also able to healer like a cleric and could even regenerate limbs at low level. Yeah Athas is a deadly place to live but the players are also deadly.
Cal Arath I see. My group never really played Psionisits, everyone except me seemed to only play Gladiator, Ranger, or Preserver. I had played a Halfling Cleric (Sphere of water) Thief, a Human Templar, and a Half Elf bard. Non of which made it past 6th level, the Half Elf bard died at level 5, the other two made it to level 6.
yeah that's the problem then. It's a world that is centered around psionic power and if you don't have one on your side you will be in trouble. Psionics is an integral part of Dark Sun and is not something that can be left out.
I played in a game in 4th edition where we reached the Epic Destiny levels. Two of the characters in the party chose Legendary Sovereign, then we had a Demi-god, and a Perfect Assassin. We literally shook the world in the final encounter. The story was so well done by the GM at the time that we set massive changes that still ripple into that game world. The mechanics really supported this as well. It was the most satisfying high level epic thing I have ever played. We still talk about it. While I can say a lot of negative things about 4E it really got that level of play right. IMHO.
I like watching these kind of videos because it gives me good ideas for other games. I haven't played dnd In a long time but the ideas carry over nicely to shadowrun or black crusade
ToM: great for fast-paced combats without a lot of AoE spellcasting. Imprecise, but still satisfying. Minis: good for dealing with large combats or fights with lots of CC/AoE. Bogs down play and can lead to a "board game" feel. I usually use whatever method I'm most inspired by in the moment.
Pro: tokens (Roll20 'miniatures') are VERY inexpensive, and once you buy them they are unlimited. A token pack of 13 goblinoids (goblins, bugbears, hobgoblins) that costs $5 nets me multiple styles of equipment on each creature, and I can post them as many times as necessary without having to spend $5 PER miniature and then extra money and time on painting them.
Man all those D&D parties have taken their toll on Jim since this video. Remember buddy you don't need to roll the dice all the time, its ok to take a break once in a while.
I have a level 40 half elf named Erickel in my Campaign that has a Homebrew spell that allows him to age himself back so he's lived about 3500 years. His current mission is to smoke every drug possible, he's also the comic relief. He rarely engages in combat. I love him
I guess I just do things differently. I don't see PCs as real movers and shakers until they hit like 15th level or so. I usually have NPCs up to level 12 to 14. then again, I also don't do power scaling. My PCs can run across a band of 0th level kobolds or a 15th level ogre, or a 30th level great wyrm red dragon, at any PC level. They never know what they are going to run into. It makes them more cautious and makes them think more about surviving an encounter because they don't have that "this encounter is set for our level" cushion in the back of their minds that lets them think they can just jump into every battle with the idea that they have a decent chance of surviving.
As a guy who came into d&d with 5e I really like your thoughts on domain level play. It sounds awesome! Albeit a lot of work to manage. I can see players having major and minor characters. Which means more managing of characters, timelines, and just more and more. Which is awesome. But you'll need dedicated players for sure and consistent play unless you want to only gather and play every couple months as people's lives happen.
Great stuff guys. Very helpful with a lot if interesting ideas. In my world the God of Competition has a guild to keep tabs on all the most powerful beings. He also has a base for hiring adventurers to do various thing to benefit the world. Heroes are ranked by deed and renown. A lot of high level spells have expensive components, so control the flow or use of components. I like to dare my players to try something crazy, as soon as they do it, so can I. They rez, I rez. They use save or die, I use save or die. They make called shots, so do I. Finding the balance is all in the details. Most movies are about high level type characters. So the beginning is establishing how great and cool the players are by using lots of lower level bait monsters to set the tone, then sending in the big guns and repeating mid-boss to test them. Never shy away from using the world against the PC's.
good discussion ! That also why I've liked the epic level from the pathfinder edition where you could have epic level in parallel like a prestige class. It was making the player really more shaped to their goals. As DM, I could really slow their leveling progression and giving them some epic level where they would obtain new spells, feat or skills. You just have to not let them looking into the book to optimize/metagame :D Also, in my next campaign, I've just put a worldbuilding rules where magic usage in the main country is regulated by a guild. If you exerce magic without permit, you can be immediatly judged. When you have this permit, you can exerce magic but not above the second level. If you want to pursue your study or if your powers are just growing strong, you have to go to the capital where you will vow with a mission spell that you belong to the Empire.
1st ed. AD&D: Played well past level 20. Most of my characters in 1 & 2 ed went at least to level 25. I barely played 3.5 or 4. I, myself , have a homebrew campaign designed to take PC's from level 3 to at least level 15 over the course of a RL year. BTW, you guys are awesome.
AD&D had different advancement rates for the various classes. You could have fighters hitting their 20s when the mages were still dicking around in the teens, which kept individual party members from completely dominating play. In 3.5, all classes advance at the same rate. Let's compare a 6th level Wizard and 6th level fighter in 3.5, which is when shit gets insane: Wizard: - Can summon large outsiders - Can drain levels (no save and btw if you can get off two castings with wands or pearls of power, you can drop most enemies at this level singlehandedly) - Can turn your entire party into giants - Can kill someone with their own worst fear (literally save or die) - Can compel any creature of 7 HD or less to do whatever s/he wants - Can scry - Can teleport Fighter: - Gets a second attack Playing beyond even 10th level in 3.5 is basically an exercise in caster masturbation, and by 20th level you're already rewriting reality wholesale with your bullshit Naruto powers.
"You are certainly a hero you are known by this point." In my game the dwarven fighter drew a card from the deck of many things, he got the skull, now keep in mind this was at level one, he actually managed to kill the thing and I was just like welp it's a very strong enemy, have 20k xp, so now we have a dwarven fighter with 6 int who is now level 6, drool on his chin as he swings his sword like a moron. The level 1 assassin and level one ranger just look at the idiot completely baffled.
For higher level characters, have them send out parties of adventurers. We know there are criminal masterminds, rivals, nemesis, etc. Design the dungeons for new characters. Have the parties they send out be the rate of exp. your higher level characters gain. Tired of getting hit, think your wizard won't try to enchant his gear? Won't make a belt of "Mage Armor" to go along with his broach of shielding? Won't make a dagger of "shocking grasp?"
This was actually pretty great, I always wondered what life would be like at that point where I've done almost everything in a campaign. If you really think about it its actually kind of reflexive on Game design in general, because if you let a player level and progress there needs to be content to suit the needs of a good and enjoyable experience.
*Next higher level play .* *I will craft beyond level 20 content .* *I will post about it at the end of this year ( 2020 ) / beginning of next year ( 2021 ) .*
Cool thought! To play weekly/monthly games! My paladin character would be able to follow her dream and build up villages.. *_* And then do the thing she always wanted to do- Use Plant Growth to enrich the villages future harvests and grow all sorts of forests to please the goddess of the forest. She would need a lot of potential Halflings and Forest Gnomes for that, maybe she could even persuade some Wood Elves to join the cause.. Tho I'm not entirely sure if they would wanna do such thing..
I thank you for the advice in this video. It made me realise that I wasn't having the world, i.e. the kings and nobles etc. react to my 9th level party the way it should and I really should change that.
The foundation for tier 4/epic level campaigns are laid in the mid-game. By 9th level, the PCs are starting to become known personalities in their respective circles - mages attract apprentices, Warriors start building up war bands or mercenary companies, and thieves begin to build their criminal organizations. Even if you forgo the domain-level game, it adds richness and complexity to a campaign to have the PCs become important players in the world.
One question I still I don't know how to anwser without homebrewing. What about higher levels? The characters get more HP, yes, but their dmg does not increse, soo... do you just slap each other at lvl 20 for 5 bludgeoning damage for five hours?
Classes give additional attacks and abilities that increase their potential for damage as you gain levels .. Feels like maybe we're missing what you're getting at?
@@WebDM nah, I Think I know what you mean. However I've allways chosen to add the rule that they add their proficiency number to damage. And I'll continue to do so, i thinnk. tnx for the anwser and have a great day.
I have as well. Although, in the version of the realms I'm running, Elminster was incinerated to ash by a flight of red dragons in the war with the Cult of the Dragon. The party death cleric lich keeps his sentient ashes in a pouch as a toes of the alliance the party made with the vampire army that overran the Dalelands.
actually strangely enough one of my groups in the tyranny of Dragons campaign, The characters had taken over the Road house in hoard of the Dragon queen, and have been using as a hub/base of operation, and since there so close to the Cult strike's back I'm able to have a perfect place to attack them
I'm 41 and new to d&d. It sounds like higher lvl stuff could be super exciting. As much stuff that is out there about power playing, it sound like DMs aren't keeping up.
I liked the idea of keeping divination risky, i also added spells that prevented some high level divination and made them available or made the Pc's aware of them. Bringing people back. I made the good res spells circumenstatial. Only during certain times the year and unique components to limit the amount of times that can happen.
One thing I noticed is that in Xanathar's Guide most of the new subclasses have their defining features in low and mid levels while their high level features are very situational and don't end up changing much. Maybe the DM already gave you a magic Item that does the same.
I am definitely with you on product development being needed to support high level. I actually prefer DMing low level (1-6th) using a benchmark / plot point award for XP. I control that narrative to garner much more action (sessions) between levels. So far my current group is nearing 6th and I've got tons left for them in my current campaign. Though my end point is based on level 10 to 12 I may have to adjust and expand the scope. I've not seen a high level 5E game yet so I'm eager to see how that performs for me and the gaming crew I have.
makes me sad that all of the campaign books so far basically stop at 10. I have all of these characters that I have to shelf unless my dm decides he wants to make a 10-15 level campaign
I'd recommend 5e Out of the Abyss, if you haven't already. As I was prepping to run it a second time, i realized that there are about 20 major set locations, and that correlates VERY nicely in 20 CHAPTERS of content at a few sessions each, which very much means my PCs will hit 18th to 20th level by the time they fight all the ______at the end of the campaign. So far, it's been a blast!
The hardest one but the most fun is legend lore. I had to make up a cryptic pome about a unique magic item because the bard couldn't be bothered it go get it identified.
3rd edition didn't start high-level campaigns, it just carried over much of the other trends that 2nd edition had already developed. Name-level retirement was only a thing in very early D&D and 1st edition AD&D. It was Gary Gygax that promoted this limited form of play and once he had left TSR, the game expanded into higher level play with many published adventures supporting high-level gaming. As of BECMI D&D, the game was extended up to 36th level and the ability to become an immortal (equivalent to a god). 2nd edition could max out anywhere from 30th to 40th level depending on setting, though there was adventure for 18-100th level characters (H4 Throne of Bloodstone, 1988).
I've been planning a campaign and working on who the opposition is, I was thinking the first five levels move without much difficulty and let the players build their characters and get to know them, then 6-10 is the first signs of the big bad threat once that is resolved 11-15 is the evil guy unleashing his undead army using the power of some very ancient very evil artifacts and post 15 is the players hunting down and confronting the evil guy for an epic final battle. Big Bad is an evil lich who commands an undead army far from the action through Death Knights, Wraiths and other foul Undead uniting with other evil creatures against men elves dwarves and other good alligned creatures. it's a very grand campaign idea.
I running a campaign through some of the hombew 1 curse of strad 2 out of the abyss 3 rise of tiamant all with the same character but say I get prince of the apocalypse should I lisen to the level restictions?
Love this series... I'm just starting as a DM and this series has been incredibly helpful. That said, it looks like y'alls white balance is off on camera 1.
The way we handled a 5th edition campaign (though this is kind of something that broke out randomly) was we the players had all become kings of a newly discovered continent, went to war... against me because i ascended to the realm of lich king and was raising armies of the dead and a minor village dispute lead to a major war and so DnD just because a war game. also 100 1st level mages are OP because 100 magic missiles
I find it funny that leve 5 paladin or level 3 cleric with paladin can easily get information from prisoners. Punch to 0hp - cast zone of truth ->tie him up -> you are he mimic
After watching today's episode of critical role, and today's episode of Web DM, I've wondered as to why players can get so emotionally invested in their high level characters especially when they die. And isn't resurrection or revivify easy to come by at fourth tier levels? How would I go about making it difficult to the point resurrection is a next to insurmountable task to make it challenging?
Just found this video. I kinda disagree. I think that certain adventurers should be of that level. I think the "hero's association" metaphor is a nice way to do it. Say the players get to level 12. They are now known across the land and tales of their escapades have even reached other continents. Now the heroes that the party has heard about in stories as children and such that havent died along the way contact them. Now the players get the "meet your heroes" moment. That legendary blind monk that punched out a legendary dragon? Yeah, here he is. He's a fucking grump that doesn't get alomg eith anyone and you realize yeah, sure, he punched out that dragon solo. But now you learn that he did so not because he's some noble hero that didn't want to endanger anyone else, he did it because nobody could work with this guy. Meanwhile they discover Princess Super Wizard who sealed the Tarasque literally just got lucky. Shes a shit mage that knows jack shit, the Tarasque was just having a really bad day and rolled 1s on all its saving throws. Now she has it locked in a hamster cage and threatens to let it out anytime she doesn't get her way. They discover that these guys basically just exist as a deterrent against one another. Its the "If you guy bad, we'll all get together and kill you, so don't use all this crazy awesome power to be a total dick." And all these high level NPC heroes have lives of their own. They arent babysitting the players or anything. Hell, maybe they're all low-key trying to get the party to quietly come to hate each other because a unified group of heroes of that power would prove hard to police. So maybe Mister Dragon Punch becomes best buds with the party monk and is a total dick to everyone else. Maybe Princess Lucksalot seduces the party's rogue AND enchants the party's fighter so the two end up fighting over her, ruining their friendship. It would be an interesting entry level plot to high level play, because it would amount to what most high level parties do when they get that high; Dick around with one another. Except these guys are doing it maliciously. I think itd be a good introduction to higher level tactics, skill checks and such. Because lets face it, the only reason why any e of that tier eould hang around on the prime material plain would be to abuse their power and fame little bit. All the worthwhile heroes move on to bigger things. So even if you want to contend that Prime Materia NPCs should stop at level 6 or 8 or something like that, I say their should still be epic level NPCs out there across the planes. Ancient wizards and warriors spoken of in myth that faded into legend. Think... Superman. The kind of hero who says "Yeah, this planet needs me, but honestly some rich guy who dresses like a bat can handle the day to day, excuse me folks, theres a planet devouring monster that wants to make us a snack, so ill go take care of that since that's more something only I can do."
Yeah, I think that's great, but I still believe it's good to have at least a couple of NPCs that are very high level and maybe very well known - and if the players have been hearing about them for some time, attaining the same levels of recognition would feel even better. To draw a comparison, imagine you grew up listening to a bunch of rock legends inducted in the rock and roll hall of fame. You become in turn a musician, and are eventually inducted yourself into the hall of fame. That would feel even more rewarding, wouldn't it ? So for example, having a couple of Mordenkainen-types, high level casters you've heard of during your whole adventuring run just through the spells they invented, might be a good idea. Maybe you can even meet them (but they might not reside on the material plane anymore...)
I made a murder mystery in my campaign that just uses illusions of the items and bodies at the scene, rather than actual items or situations, so plays can't cheese that shit.
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Web DM that level 100 player though
"The threats that are needed to really challenge [Tier 4 characters] are gonna be world-shaking things."
Are y'all telling me D&D is a shonen anime with a REALLY BAD escalation problem?
naruto
Yes.
no im telling you that dnd is a great system able to make many different power levels.
Yes, yes it is
Illusionati brilliant.
Nerdarchist Dave
Thank you. Sometimes the muse descends.
play a battle siege with the characters
I do adore how you spend most of the podcast just trying to get in your catch phrases. You totally stuck the landing on that one. :)
Once in a 4th edition campaign, around 15th level, we killed an Elf queen who we were terrified of seeing again. Our druid turned into a tiger, ate her, shat her into a bag of holding, and carried it around for three months.
I'd go to similar extreme lengths to dispose of a powerful enemy.
You: "... the Illusionaty"
Me: "Haha, I love that, I'm gonna use that."
You: "TRADEMARKED!"
:(
*Illusionati
Illusionaughty. Open source.
The camera focus knows what I'm really interested in: the unequal-sized blue triangles in the corner of their icosahedron-structure's corner.
you gotta think it like dbz, there's always someone stronger
Bad guys resurrecting each other. Great idea! It seems so obvious, but it had never occurred to me. LOL. Now I can’t wait to spring this on my players. I’m only now starting to get my groups into the 12+ levels, and the information in this discussion is awesome. It’ll definitely be useful. Thanks, guys!
Or they can come back as a undead like Ghouls or Morhgs I’d recommend morhgs they are nasty
Matthews Mercers way of turning all resurrection spells into a skill challenge ritual have worked good in my games to counter spamming revivify. Death really becomes something dangerous for low to mid level tiers.
Then at higher tiers the dead pc's soul might get trapped by a demon or necromancer that wants the strong souls power.
You on the subreddit?
mattbetts01 yupp
I've never been a fan of his rituals mechanically. In practice with his players, (who are actors) it creates fantastic drama. However, as a DM I would hate to have my player's spells not work properly due to what I believe to be some misguided perspective that 'resurrection counters death, so death is never a problem'. Considering all of the options at my disposal as a DM just using spells and lead walls or the like, without homebrewing or changing a single thing, there are many ways to make death more of a complication than "do we have the money for a diamond? Yeah? Okay no problem then."
Mind you, I'm a huge fan of Critical Role and absolutely love it. I've been watching faithfully since it first started. My opinion above isn't some hate against the show or MM's rituals, it's just an opinion.
@@JeremyTheGraten the death mechanics has nothing to do with there being actors, it has to do with each time resurrection is used, the DC they have to beat becomes higher, which increases the challenge, rather then making it all the same. in addition, when you tie in other worldly beings who are interested in the souls of the party members, it adds another layer of challenge.
Never apologize for stating an opinion. If it offends someone that you disagree with them, too bad. People these days need to understand an opinion is not a fact, not a personal attack, its just an opinion, nether right or wrong.
My first (and my brothers and friends) high lvl characters were 15th lvl when we were in 6th grade (1982). They were badly played, overpowered, unbalanced and hella fun!! I've learned since then and learned alot more than just gaming too. I liken high level play to war...so read Sun Tzu's Art of War: "to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting." I think it's important to remember that the opposing forces (NPC's, badguys, monsters, their own inner demons, and demons/devils) all have a will of their own and are doing and moving too. Have a plan that they are following that changes as the players make moves int he world or even change the world around them. High level play can be fun....divination and other stuff that gives players advantages....the baddies have em too :)
The Art of War is an excellent reference for most things in life.
All of those elements are what make high level play so much fun! The PCs don't exist in a vacuum, and the higher level they are, the more they have to be proactive in eliminating threats.
Fun for a DM too. I permanently killed an asshole pc by having a fellow pc kinder pick his statuette of wish from his pocket during our 12-15 level dragonlance campaign in 1990
Camera seems continually out of focus when its on Jim
maybe he's just a blurry guy
I told Jim not cast 'Blur' before we started shooting, but he's his own man.
You never know when extra dimensional clones will drop in unannounced. Gotta be prepared.
Web DM Customer Service is aware of this issue.
perhaps he's related to Bigfoot
I've played only one Epic-level campaign, and that became a Nordic mythology-based event. Compared to just the two examples brought up here (wedding crasher, kill Orcus), I hereby bow to the superior campaign ideas. My DM back then was obviously nowhere near to your level Jim. Truly Epic. Great video.
Jim is a DM's DM. He's a national treasure.
JPruInc Amen to that.
Ehh it's Mike! Nice to see one of my favourite commenters on one of my favourite channels. Hope to see your wisdom and experience detailed in the comments of these nice fellows video playlist from now on. ;)
Malcolm Grant Based on the quality of the content of this channel, you might well see me around a lot. ;)
And thank you for the kind words.
I recently joined an Epic level campaign. The gm is starting us at lvl 20. For some reason he allowed me to get the demigod template AND THAN GAVE ME DIVINE RANKS. My character is now pun pun.
Did I just hear a paladin buried a bunch of dwarves alive after stealing a bride with a love potion?
Brondel is a fallen paladin. So dropping things on people is ok.
In Brondel's defense, he genuinely wooed her before sealing the deal with the potion. It was insurance!! Totes tried to bury her whole family alive, tho.
Oathbreaker pally. And Brondel rolled something like a 32 on his Cha check to woo the princess. Also performed three feats of strength in front of her, besting the other dwarves- wrestling, axe throwing, and meat pie eating.
Seems legit. Heard a Fighter/Bladelock idea I liked where the patron is his wife. Who just so happens to be a high-tier Succubus. It'd be fun to role-play I think
I only just recently discovered this channel and I gotta say, I really can't sing it's praises enough. Already you guys have given so much inspiration for my weekly game and even though I've been rolling dice for a decade now there are these seeds you plant for settings, monsters etc. that provide new creative perspectives.
One thing I would love to see from you guys is a sort of 'Web DM Workshop' series, which would be all about practical, simple things to really get DMs hands dirty. Maybe a list of cool traps to use in certain different dungeons? A way to inject roleplaying into dungeons (or at least stop sessions from becoming boring slaughterfests)? Little tips to get your players into the game and roleplaying more? Maybe videos on designing more interesting, dynamic, tactical encounters? How to design a good murder mystery?
I'm waxing lyrical and rambling a bit here but I'd love to see how you guys run your games at the meat-and-potatoes bare-bones level.
Subscribed and can't wait for more videos!
Have you checked out our Curse of Razel-Sinn series? It's a taste (even if somewhat stiff and artificial) of how I run my games. The workshop series you describe is a a great idea though. Our biggest constraint right now is time.
James Davis Where can i check it out? Sounds really interesting
Well said. Everything said here is still relevant today. Thanks guys. May you always roll high when you really need to.
Honestly I could have listened to an hour of this topic, you guys have put a lot of thought into this and have amazing ideas.
Appreciate the feedback. It keeps us going!
a new Web DM video in the middle of class? sorry professor, I have some important buisness to attend to
Proprieties must be observed.
Most of the level 15+ adventures i have seen and participated in have been other planar or areas with different rules.
Same here. The planes are a lot of fun!
Same. The gods get involved, the intrigues involve the whole solar system, not just the same planet.
I wasn't sure about High Level play until I watched critical role. They do it great.
I'd say 6/7 do it great, one druid happens to forget her spells a lot, but, the rest do a really amazing job.
dragonfire fucking kelith. She fucks up so many good plans.
Jules Vinckier I agree. If only there was something that could be done *sighs*
.... Keylith has finally had her moment.
Skelebon I'm not got up, so apologies. I'm at episode 65, when they first enter Ank'Harel.
Divining, Scrying, Teleporting, Frying
Damn... is that we should have been doing?!
Shiny. Honestly the best commentary about Epic Level gaming anywhere on the Netz. And I've looked.
You guys are formidable, especially from inside that customized d20
Thanks!
I always look forward to Thursday/Friday. Excellent capstone for the week and gets me excited for my D&D for Friday night. Thanks again guys!
Happy to help your week along! May the dice be ever in your favor!
Here are two other significant considerations.
First, after about level 7-9, it becomes possible for full casters especially to overcome any challenge. Seriously, you can Planar Bind a genie and Wish for the resources to do pretty much anything, potentially including Wishing more. Barring abuses of the timeless nature of the Astral Plane and the like, the one limiting feature here is time. Being higher level simply means you can do things faster, that you need less prep time. But to fully exert your power you need time unopposed by outside forces that drain your resources. As PCs facing a villain, you need to be the one draining their resources, denying them the prep time needed to complete their dastardly plot. And if you as PCs take time away from adventuring to sit back and plot and prepare, then the villain is just going to go ahead and win. Hell, when the party is sitting in their Rope Trick recovering their spell slots, the villain will simply go ahead and win.
When the movers and shakers of the world deign to move, everyone is forced into a game of speed chess. Artificers aren't going to complete their new items, the party is not going to be able to rest and recover daily resources. Full stop. Unless you cheat and abuse time manipulation of course, but if the PCs can do it and are prepared to open that can of worms, then so can the villains.
Secondly, the rules as written really de-emphasise collateral damage. 5th has generally nerfed power levels such that one usually isn't capable of significant collateral damage, but 3rd especially was kind of notorious in that colossal creatures needed special feats and class features and the like for the 50' sword they might be swinging to deal damage to more than precisely the one creature they are targeting (or Fireball being specifically engineered to not have any of the side effects of an explosion). 5e maintains this pattern by for example damage capping dynamite, no matter how much you throw at the problem. In high level play you either have to learn to live with these limitations and work around them, acknowledging that D&D physics are simply fundamentally alien, or you will have to ignore those limitations and embrace the fact of life that if you aren't careful, you will collapse the dungeon in on your head, which you may or may not be able to survive but will certainly make looting the place much more arduous.
awesome glad your talking about this. I loved Oblivion, and Skyrim.
On the issue of keeping tabs on powerful wizards, Dragonalnce dealt with the issue quite well with the Wizards of High Sorcery, where even there evil members had rules that they were expected to follow lest they be labeled a renegade and hunted down by the entire order.
this is a really good video. the epic epilogue descriptions you gave were exactly what i like about dnd! things aren't exactly random, but you end up in these crazy story schemes.
also yesss to 0 level sessions. character building in my group is so fragmented in my group because we all have different ideas of how to plan out our characters and backstories.
It's like herding cats sometimes to get everyone in the same page.
Hey, guys! I always download your video's audio and listen them as podcasts. I really enjoy them, keep the great work!
Planescape and Dark Sun make great settings for having high level characters continue to adventure with that low level feeling. In the various D&D novels we see all these epic heroes having fairly normal adventures, just with higher stakes. Allowing domain play is a great option to give a player, but just because a player has the notoriety and influence that doesn't mean they should be forced into retirement. And as Hugo Strange constantly points out, heroes of great power attract villains of great power.
Birthright comes to mind- great setting.
2E had a lot of content for high level play and an excellent source book devoted to high level play. I've run numerous high level 2E D&D games included some set in Dark Sun.
Your players had to have done really well in order to play some high level games in dark sun. In one of the campaigns I was a player in, it was a -1 level penalty on death and remaking a new character, to a minimum of level 3, and we always died before we could make it to 7th level, we had one Mul Gladiator make it to 7th level, only to fight 40 gith on his own and die.
Psionisists are very powerful and people never really delved into the class. Thrikeen fighter/Psionisist with Psycometbalism was just a beast. Kinetic energy control was very good along with energy containment and accelerate. They were also able to healer like a cleric and could even regenerate limbs at low level. Yeah Athas is a deadly place to live but the players are also deadly.
Cal Arath I see. My group never really played Psionisits, everyone except me seemed to only play Gladiator, Ranger, or Preserver. I had played a Halfling Cleric (Sphere of water) Thief, a Human Templar, and a Half Elf bard. Non of which made it past 6th level, the Half Elf bard died at level 5, the other two made it to level 6.
yeah that's the problem then. It's a world that is centered around psionic power and if you don't have one on your side you will be in trouble. Psionics is an integral part of Dark Sun and is not something that can be left out.
Awesome Video! Also - there is a spiderbro running over the table at 7:43 - 7:49, cheers!
I played in a game in 4th edition where we reached the Epic Destiny levels. Two of the characters in the party chose Legendary Sovereign, then we had a Demi-god, and a Perfect Assassin. We literally shook the world in the final encounter. The story was so well done by the GM at the time that we set massive changes that still ripple into that game world. The mechanics really supported this as well. It was the most satisfying high level epic thing I have ever played. We still talk about it. While I can say a lot of negative things about 4E it really got that level of play right. IMHO.
I like watching these kind of videos because it gives me good ideas for other games. I haven't played dnd In a long time but the ideas carry over nicely to shadowrun or black crusade
What are your thoughts on miniatures vs theater of the mind? What are pros and cons of both?
Love the show
ToM: great for fast-paced combats without a lot of AoE spellcasting. Imprecise, but still satisfying. Minis: good for dealing with large combats or fights with lots of CC/AoE. Bogs down play and can lead to a "board game" feel. I usually use whatever method I'm most inspired by in the moment.
Prefer to stay away from Theatre of The Mind.
Con: miniatures are overpriced
Reserve miniatures for combat positioning only, and actually, you might find that LEGO are awesome for that, instead of buying regular miniatures.
Pro: tokens (Roll20 'miniatures') are VERY inexpensive, and once you buy them they are unlimited. A token pack of 13 goblinoids (goblins, bugbears, hobgoblins) that costs $5 nets me multiple styles of equipment on each creature, and I can post them as many times as necessary without having to spend $5 PER miniature and then extra money and time on painting them.
Man all those D&D parties have taken their toll on Jim since this video. Remember buddy you don't need to roll the dice all the time, its ok to take a break once in a while.
This summer on E-Bay, I scored a full copy of the Master set, which covers levels 25 thru 36 in becmi :)
I just found this Video and I want to say Thank you thank you. The Domain Game is definitely what is missing from 5 E
Web DM and Web MD are like Lawful and Chaotic Good. On the same side of one axis, on the opposite sides of another
the immortal campaign where you reach lvl 100 and become a god
There's always a bigger fish out there.
I have a level 40 half elf named Erickel in my Campaign that has a Homebrew spell that allows him to age himself back so he's lived about 3500 years. His current mission is to smoke every drug possible, he's also the comic relief. He rarely engages in combat. I love him
I guess I just do things differently. I don't see PCs as real movers and shakers until they hit like 15th level or so. I usually have NPCs up to level 12 to 14.
then again, I also don't do power scaling. My PCs can run across a band of 0th level kobolds or a 15th level ogre, or a 30th level great wyrm red dragon, at any PC level. They never know what they are going to run into. It makes them more cautious and makes them think more about surviving an encounter because they don't have that "this encounter is set for our level" cushion in the back of their minds that lets them think they can just jump into every battle with the idea that they have a decent chance of surviving.
Classic DnD, Eberron, and Epic6 for 3.5 inform a lot of my thoughts on the subject of PC's status in the world.
Me too. Much more realistic that way
As a guy who came into d&d with 5e I really like your thoughts on domain level play.
It sounds awesome! Albeit a lot of work to manage. I can see players having major and minor characters. Which means more managing of characters, timelines, and just more and more. Which is awesome. But you'll need dedicated players for sure and consistent play unless you want to only gather and play every couple months as people's lives happen.
Great stuff guys. Very helpful with a lot if interesting ideas. In my world the God of Competition has a guild to keep tabs on all the most powerful beings. He also has a base for hiring adventurers to do various thing to benefit the world. Heroes are ranked by deed and renown.
A lot of high level spells have expensive components, so control the flow or use of components. I like to dare my players to try something crazy, as soon as they do it, so can I. They rez, I rez. They use save or die, I use save or die. They make called shots, so do I. Finding the balance is all in the details. Most movies are about high level type characters. So the beginning is establishing how great and cool the players are by using lots of lower level bait monsters to set the tone, then sending in the big guns and repeating mid-boss to test them. Never shy away from using the world against the PC's.
good discussion !
That also why I've liked the epic level from the pathfinder edition where you could have epic level in parallel like a prestige class. It was making the player really more shaped to their goals. As DM, I could really slow their leveling progression and giving them some epic level where they would obtain new spells, feat or skills. You just have to not let them looking into the book to optimize/metagame :D
Also, in my next campaign, I've just put a worldbuilding rules where magic usage in the main country is regulated by a guild. If you exerce magic without permit, you can be immediatly judged. When you have this permit, you can exerce magic but not above the second level. If you want to pursue your study or if your powers are just growing strong, you have to go to the capital where you will vow with a mission spell that you belong to the Empire.
1st ed. AD&D: Played well past level 20. Most of my characters in 1 & 2 ed went at least to level 25. I barely played 3.5 or 4.
I, myself , have a homebrew campaign designed to take PC's from level 3 to at least level 15 over the course of a RL year. BTW, you guys are awesome.
AD&D had different advancement rates for the various classes. You could have fighters hitting their 20s when the mages were still dicking around in the teens, which kept individual party members from completely dominating play. In 3.5, all classes advance at the same rate. Let's compare a 6th level Wizard and 6th level fighter in 3.5, which is when shit gets insane:
Wizard:
- Can summon large outsiders
- Can drain levels (no save and btw if you can get off two castings with wands or pearls of power, you can drop most enemies at this level singlehandedly)
- Can turn your entire party into giants
- Can kill someone with their own worst fear (literally save or die)
- Can compel any creature of 7 HD or less to do whatever s/he wants
- Can scry
- Can teleport
Fighter:
- Gets a second attack
Playing beyond even 10th level in 3.5 is basically an exercise in caster masturbation, and by 20th level you're already rewriting reality wholesale with your bullshit Naruto powers.
"You are certainly a hero you are known by this point."
In my game the dwarven fighter drew a card from the deck of many things, he got the skull, now keep in mind this was at level one, he actually managed to kill the thing and I was just like welp it's a very strong enemy, have 20k xp, so now we have a dwarven fighter with 6 int who is now level 6, drool on his chin as he swings his sword like a moron. The level 1 assassin and level one ranger just look at the idiot completely baffled.
For higher level characters, have them send out parties of adventurers.
We know there are criminal masterminds, rivals, nemesis, etc. Design the dungeons for new characters. Have the parties they send out be the rate of exp. your higher level characters gain.
Tired of getting hit, think your wizard won't try to enchant his gear? Won't make a belt of "Mage Armor" to go along with his broach of shielding? Won't make a dagger of "shocking grasp?"
This was actually pretty great, I always wondered what life would be like at that point where I've done almost everything in a campaign. If you really think about it its actually kind of reflexive on Game design in general, because if you let a player level and progress there needs to be content to suit the needs of a good and enjoyable experience.
*Next higher level play .*
*I will craft beyond level 20 content .*
*I will post about it at the end of this year ( 2020 ) / beginning of next year ( 2021 ) .*
11th level be like: that baddy from the start, was actually controlled by a demon, so.... go kill it. amass an army and fight it in its own realm.
"Si mula crim" ? I always pronounced it as "Sim you lack rum".
You want us to go into the castle and kill all the things, the wizard cast meteor swarm on the castle. :D
Cool thought! To play weekly/monthly games! My paladin character would be able to follow her dream and build up villages.. *_* And then do the thing she always wanted to do- Use Plant Growth to enrich the villages future harvests and grow all sorts of forests to please the goddess of the forest.
She would need a lot of potential Halflings and Forest Gnomes for that, maybe she could even persuade some Wood Elves to join the cause.. Tho I'm not entirely sure if they would wanna do such thing..
this is a video
this is a comment
this too is a comment on a video
Oh dear god. NO! NO! NOOOOO!!!
This is a comment commenting on a comment in a video.
I thank you for the advice in this video. It made me realise that I wasn't having the world, i.e. the kings and nobles etc. react to my 9th level party the way it should and I really should change that.
The foundation for tier 4/epic level campaigns are laid in the mid-game. By 9th level, the PCs are starting to become known personalities in their respective circles - mages attract apprentices, Warriors start building up war bands or mercenary companies, and thieves begin to build their criminal organizations. Even if you forgo the domain-level game, it adds richness and complexity to a campaign to have the PCs become important players in the world.
Constructive Critique: Adding colour correction to your shots (in post) will help the transition between angles be less distracting.
One question I still I don't know how to anwser without homebrewing. What about higher levels? The characters get more HP, yes, but their dmg does not increse, soo... do you just slap each other at lvl 20 for 5 bludgeoning damage for five hours?
Classes give additional attacks and abilities that increase their potential for damage as you gain levels ..
Feels like maybe we're missing what you're getting at?
@@WebDM nah, I Think I know what you mean. However I've allways chosen to add the rule that they add their proficiency number to damage. And I'll continue to do so, i thinnk. tnx for the anwser and have a great day.
would something like Crisis on Infinite Earths (or Torils) be a good high-level campaign setting?
Have different version of Elminster fighting to correct the problem or destroy other Toril's. Sounds fun.
I have always wanted to do a high-level campaign that involves the D&D multiverses, with Elminster and Mordenkainen of Greyhawk
I have as well. Although, in the version of the realms I'm running, Elminster was incinerated to ash by a flight of red dragons in the war with the Cult of the Dragon. The party death cleric lich keeps his sentient ashes in a pouch as a toes of the alliance the party made with the vampire army that overran the Dalelands.
actually strangely enough one of my groups in the tyranny of Dragons campaign, The characters had taken over the Road house in hoard of the Dragon queen, and have been using as a hub/base of operation, and since there so close to the Cult strike's back I'm able to have a perfect place to attack them
2 WebDM videos, epic fun!
Make sure to catch the FB exclusive video released this week gang! :D
Episode Idea. Mounts and how to ride a horse alive when riding it in to battle. Custom class levels for mounts?
"Illusionati" - I was going to 'like' this video anyway, but that made me pause and scroll down just to make sure XD
I'm 41 and new to d&d. It sounds like higher lvl stuff could be super exciting. As much stuff that is out there about power playing, it sound like DMs aren't keeping up.
I liked the idea of keeping divination risky, i also added spells that prevented some high level divination and made them available or made the Pc's aware of them. Bringing people back. I made the good res spells circumenstatial. Only during certain times the year and unique components to limit the amount of times that can happen.
wonderful episode as always!
And you're a wonderful viewer, as always! Thanks for sticking around.
I've never had a game go past level 7 honestly
Techpriest Oni mine usually go to 10 just because we usually do modules. There great fun. Best is red hand of doom, in my opinion.
loves these videos, you should do one on traps and puzzles
you should do a video on solo adventures.
I remember year ago when I played first edition high level characters were the norm. what did they do to change that ?
One thing I noticed is that in Xanathar's Guide most of the new subclasses have their defining features in low and mid levels while their high level features are very situational and don't end up changing much. Maybe the DM already gave you a magic Item that does the same.
Yep taking another subclass is definitely something that I thought would be kool.
I am definitely with you on product development being needed to support high level. I actually prefer DMing low level (1-6th) using a benchmark / plot point award for XP. I control that narrative to garner much more action (sessions) between levels. So far my current group is nearing 6th and I've got tons left for them in my current campaign. Though my end point is based on level 10 to 12 I may have to adjust and expand the scope. I've not seen a high level 5E game yet so I'm eager to see how that performs for me and the gaming crew I have.
Was Infinity war an epic level campaign?
Shit now all I wanna do is figure out what class/subclass all the avengers are
makes me sad that all of the campaign books so far basically stop at 10. I have all of these characters that I have to shelf unless my dm decides he wants to make a 10-15 level campaign
I'd recommend 5e Out of the Abyss, if you haven't already. As I was prepping to run it a second time, i realized that there are about 20 major set locations, and that correlates VERY nicely in 20 CHAPTERS of content at a few sessions each, which very much means my PCs will hit 18th to 20th level by the time they fight all the ______at the end of the campaign. So far, it's been a blast!
The hardest one but the most fun is legend lore. I had to make up a cryptic pome about a unique magic item because the bard couldn't be bothered it go get it identified.
Really looking forward to Mr. Colvile's strongholds and followers set.
3rd edition didn't start high-level campaigns, it just carried over much of the other trends that 2nd edition had already developed.
Name-level retirement was only a thing in very early D&D and 1st edition AD&D. It was Gary Gygax that promoted this limited form of play and once he had left TSR, the game expanded into higher level play with many published adventures supporting high-level gaming. As of BECMI D&D, the game was extended up to 36th level and the ability to become an immortal (equivalent to a god). 2nd edition could max out anywhere from 30th to 40th level depending on setting, though there was adventure for 18-100th level characters (H4 Throne of Bloodstone, 1988).
Lots of good stuff here.
2:52 - Even if they didn't give you characters levels up to 20, you could still calculate them.
I've been planning a campaign and working on who the opposition is, I was thinking the first five levels move without much difficulty and let the players build their characters and get to know them, then 6-10 is the first signs of the big bad threat once that is resolved 11-15 is the evil guy unleashing his undead army using the power of some very ancient very evil artifacts and post 15 is the players hunting down and confronting the evil guy for an epic final battle. Big Bad is an evil lich who commands an undead army far from the action through Death Knights, Wraiths and other foul Undead uniting with other evil creatures against men elves dwarves and other good alligned creatures. it's a very grand campaign idea.
I running a campaign through some of the hombew 1 curse of strad 2 out of the abyss 3 rise of tiamant all with the same character but say I get prince of the apocalypse should I lisen to the level restictions?
Love this series... I'm just starting as a DM and this series has been incredibly helpful.
That said, it looks like y'alls white balance is off on camera 1.
People: you can't challenge high level characters
Me: my retriever, drow matron mother, and two drow favored consorts would beg to differ
Do you guys have videos of your dnd games on TH-cam? I’d love to watch how you play.
The way we handled a 5th edition campaign (though this is kind of something that broke out randomly) was we the players had all become kings of a newly discovered continent, went to war... against me because i ascended to the realm of lich king and was raising armies of the dead and a minor village dispute lead to a major war and so DnD just because a war game. also 100 1st level mages are OP because 100 magic missiles
"Simulacrum -> Wish" is busted, but "wish -> clone" straight up breaks my brain as a DM...
Can't wait for the new up to 20th undermountain HC.
Watching in 2021 and "Tier 4" means something completely different
I find it funny that leve 5 paladin or level 3 cleric with paladin can easily get information from prisoners.
Punch to 0hp - cast zone of truth ->tie him up -> you are he mimic
After watching today's episode of critical role, and today's episode of Web DM, I've wondered as to why players can get so emotionally invested in their high level characters especially when they die. And isn't resurrection or revivify easy to come by at fourth tier levels? How would I go about making it difficult to the point resurrection is a next to insurmountable task to make it challenging?
Well in Matt Mercer's campaign, returning someone from the dead is usually a ritual of some sort which implies that failure is an option.
" I dont like having NPC's at 11th level, thats the domain for PC's " thats a great thing. what a great mentality to have.
In my opinion, Eberron nailed this one - the majority of NPCs are 6th level or lower.
Jim Davis It makes sense, the pcs can become legendary heroes. You don't want all of the NPCs to be on their level.
Just found this video. I kinda disagree. I think that certain adventurers should be of that level. I think the "hero's association" metaphor is a nice way to do it.
Say the players get to level 12. They are now known across the land and tales of their escapades have even reached other continents.
Now the heroes that the party has heard about in stories as children and such that havent died along the way contact them. Now the players get the "meet your heroes" moment. That legendary blind monk that punched out a legendary dragon?
Yeah, here he is. He's a fucking grump that doesn't get alomg eith anyone and you realize yeah, sure, he punched out that dragon solo.
But now you learn that he did so not because he's some noble hero that didn't want to endanger anyone else, he did it because nobody could work with this guy.
Meanwhile they discover Princess Super Wizard who sealed the Tarasque literally just got lucky. Shes a shit mage that knows jack shit, the Tarasque was just having a really bad day and rolled 1s on all its saving throws. Now she has it locked in a hamster cage and threatens to let it out anytime she doesn't get her way.
They discover that these guys basically just exist as a deterrent against one another. Its the "If you guy bad, we'll all get together and kill you, so don't use all this crazy awesome power to be a total dick."
And all these high level NPC heroes have lives of their own. They arent babysitting the players or anything. Hell, maybe they're all low-key trying to get the party to quietly come to hate each other because a unified group of heroes of that power would prove hard to police. So maybe Mister Dragon Punch becomes best buds with the party monk and is a total dick to everyone else. Maybe Princess Lucksalot seduces the party's rogue AND enchants the party's fighter so the two end up fighting over her, ruining their friendship.
It would be an interesting entry level plot to high level play, because it would amount to what most high level parties do when they get that high; Dick around with one another. Except these guys are doing it maliciously. I think itd be a good introduction to higher level tactics, skill checks and such.
Because lets face it, the only reason why any e of that tier eould hang around on the prime material plain would be to abuse their power and fame little bit.
All the worthwhile heroes move on to bigger things. So even if you want to contend that Prime Materia NPCs should stop at level 6 or 8 or something like that, I say their should still be epic level NPCs out there across the planes. Ancient wizards and warriors spoken of in myth that faded into legend. Think... Superman. The kind of hero who says "Yeah, this planet needs me, but honestly some rich guy who dresses like a bat can handle the day to day, excuse me folks, theres a planet devouring monster that wants to make us a snack, so ill go take care of that since that's more something only I can do."
Yeah, I think that's great, but I still believe it's good to have at least a couple of NPCs that are very high level and maybe very well known - and if the players have been hearing about them for some time, attaining the same levels of recognition would feel even better.
To draw a comparison, imagine you grew up listening to a bunch of rock legends inducted in the rock and roll hall of fame. You become in turn a musician, and are eventually inducted yourself into the hall of fame. That would feel even more rewarding, wouldn't it ?
So for example, having a couple of Mordenkainen-types, high level casters you've heard of during your whole adventuring run just through the spells they invented, might be a good idea. Maybe you can even meet them (but they might not reside on the material plane anymore...)
In a game I'm in our 7th level cleric is bringing the apocalypse
If you think about it 17+ is comparatively epic.
Are all of the cameras color corrected differently
Can you do an episode on mundane weapons and properties?
Episode idea: What to do when the campaign ends (successfully)
I made a murder mystery in my campaign that just uses illusions of the items and bodies at the scene, rather than actual items or situations, so plays can't cheese that shit.