Great documentation of this very popular tramline. That international airport at Rose Bay came about after WW2 during which it was a base for the Catalina floating boats
Thanks for your recollection video. Wonderful. I was born 1960 and grew up in Watson's Bay, sadly missed the last tram. Always felt the trams in my bones when riding my bike to school. I saw the remainders of the tracks on the roads. Wow.
Glad you enjoyed it. To this day, bikes and tram tracks don't mix :) And just think what a tourist attraction it would be today if the tram still went to Watsons Bay.
Hi Marty, thanks for another excellent video. I remember this tram line very well. At Queens Square, I remember the trams terminating there in later years in a loop. It was quite close to St James railway station. The line was still referred as the King Street line, despite of it being cut back from there. I remember on one occasion back in the late 1960s, actually going to the Sydney Stadium to see the wrestling. That was all later moved to the Hordern Pavilion. In around 1963 my dad and I were in the Watson's Bay area and we discovered remains of part of the Watson's Bay tram line in the Gap Park reserved area. We told the people at Loftus Tram Museum and soon after, they collected it all. Just an extra piece of info for you. Part of the SPER video shown of the Watson's Bay trams was from the collection of the late Ben Parle, who filmed several of the remaining Sydney tram lines still in operation from late 1958 until the closure in 1961 on Standard 8 movie film. Anyway, take care. Rob in Melbourne Australia.
Thanks for sharing great memories. Specifically on what you discovered at Watsons Bay. BTW I grew up in the southern suburbs of Sydney and we visited the old Loftus Tram museum many a time.. I don't even know if you had to pay back then (should ask my mum).. so partially thanks to you I have such an interest in trams... And in researching these videos I feel like I know many of the great people who documented the trams of Sydney - like Ben Parle, Vic Solomon, Noel Reed et al. Wish I was in the generation to meet them.
I actually grew up in Marrickville and was there until moving to Melbourne in June 1981. My mum passed away when I was nine years old and my dad brought me up from then. My dad took me on many of the Sydney trams as a child and I have vivid memories of them. My favourite tram journey was the one from Wynyard across the Harbour Bridge. I met Ben Parle during the late 1970s and visited him on several occasions. He used to live at Turramurra. The first movie that Ben showed me was Brisbane and i was absolutely amazed at all the detail of the trams in the film. he later showed me some of his Sydney tram film collection. I also knew Vic Solomons.
At the old Loftus Tram Museum site, it was free to enter, but you then paid for the tram trips. From memory, there was an all day ticket available along with single trip tickets.
Thank You So Much For That!! I Lived In Elizabeth Bay In The 60's And 70's, And Grew Up In Kings Cross Through The Vietnam War, And The Huge Moratorium Marches There! I Spent All My Formative Years In The Eastern Suburbs, And This Post Brought Tears To The Eyes!! The Rose Bay Airport Actually Went On Much Longer, From Memory Late Into The 70's, Even Perhaps 80's, Servicing Lord Howe Island Mainly, With Sunderland Flying Boats. As A Kid, And At Low Tide, I Could Walk The Foreshore From Rushcutters Bay To Watson's Bay, Without Leaving The Water's Edge!! You Could Only Do It One Way, Or Be Caught By The Tide, But It Was A Fantastic Hike, With A Good Bit Of Rock Climbing Around The Shore!! I Would Sit On A High Rock At "Toft Monks" At The Head Of Rushcutters Bay Called "Horse's Head;" It's Still There!! As A Small Child I Would Watch The Harbour Traffic From This Vantage Point; The "South Steyne" And "North Head," And All The Other Venerable Vessels Of The Harbour, Including "Radar," Which I Believe Is Still Plying The Harbour Under Another Name! Where The Rushcutters Bay Depot Was, They Built A Hotel, Under Which Was The Longest And Greatest Slot-Car Track In The Southern Hemisphere, And Also The Largest 10-Pin Bowling Establishment/Club!! I Could Go On All Bloody Day, But Just: Thanks Again, From An Old Bloke!!!
You are correct about the Flying Boats operating into the 1970s. My sister flew on one to Lord Howe Island in 1973 I think; that was the only way to get there then.
@ktipuss Actually, I Should Have Said Lord Howe; Now You've Reminded Me, That Was The Main Destination. I'm Pretty Sure I Saw Those Sunderland's Operating Well Into The 80's From Rose Bay, One Of The Really Beautiful Places In Sydney!! Thanks For The Reminder; They Were Indeed Most Happy, And Elegant Times, With A Very Healthy, Well Informed And Vibrant Society, Which Gathered Together Often In A Way Not Even Contemplated Today!!
Thanks for the great memories. Yes Seaplanes still operate even today - like up to the Hawkesbury River. I read somewhere when Qantas stopped flying internationally - they literally just gave their planes to Ansett to fly the Lord Howe Island route.
My grandparents lived in Gap Rd Watsons Bay, my brother and I when we were kids used to collect the bolts that held the tracks down that were left behind.
Darlinghurst Fire Station [5:10] was designed by English architect, Colonel Walter Liberty Vernon, who was the NSW Government Architect for 21 years. Vernon designed Central station. The funeral for Vernon was held at St James’ Church which is by the former terminus loop line [3:38]. Vernon Circle, Canberra, named after the colonel, is the massive roundabout which is 230 metres in diameter. The circle, which contains City Hill park, will have a new extension of the Canberra light rail running on the hexagon shaped road which surrounds the circle, London Circuit, on its western edge. Incidentally, Vernon shares the same given name of Walter Burley Griffin, the American architect who designed Canberra.
Kudos Marty and welcome back to the city I grew-up in. This brings back many memories as my Nan and Pop lived in Point Piper. This was the late 1960s and I distinctly remember the green double-decker bus and the 399 bus route. Why? I have no idea. Seeing Sydney has made me very homesick, as I haven't been back in 30 years. I grew up in 'The Shire" from the mid-60s and I remember the tram museum at Loftus vividly. Is it still open? I was very lucky to have a father who was a member of the RVCP (Royal Volunteer Coastal Patrol) based in Botany Bay near the runways. Around 1969 I went with him when he was working on a Saturday, manning the radios. The base was actually inside the airport, using the very old control tower buildings. He had a key that would open a gate allowing access. After his shift had finished, he took me out towards the runway to the boundary fence line and we both lay on our backs watching massive jets landing above us. I've never forgotten that moment. You could almost touch them, and the noise and jet-blast was absolute joy.
The Loftus tramway museum is absolutely still open, I was there recently. It has a number of interesting vehicles added to its collection including one of the original Variotrams used on the return of trams to Sydney with the opening of the Wentworth Park line which were the first low-floor accessible trams in Australia; and trams from post-war Nagasaki and Berlin among a host of Sydney + Melbourne + Brisbane trams, and a veteran from Adelaide that was in service for decades on the original "Light Rail"-style operations there.
@@tompchromedome Nonsense, Sydney has made some massive strides forward over the last few years after a bit of a low point with the lockout laws and so on. Removal of the tram system was another low point as was the infrastructure failures of the previous Labor Government in the 1990s and 2000s.
Marty you have outdone yourself mate. I grew up in that general area and had no idea of the things you discuss. I was 10 pin bowling on-top of the old tram depot, biking with friends over/near the Sydney stadium (never knew about it) and watching small charter sea planes take off and land with parents without realising the airport part. What a brutal end of history for this line.
Until 2020 the tramline right of way at 9:36 was still little more than a rough track with railway ballast still evident on it. Almost nobody realised what it actually was. It seems that Woollahra Council (or National Parks?) took advantage of the Covid19 period to do work on that track to upgrade it and make it less of a trip hazard (and protect the roots of that Moreton Bay Fig tree there with that little ramp). It is also now signposted as a former tramway track so it will now see a lot more use from walkers. Unfortunately the cutting at 9:36 was filled in soon after closure, no doubt as another measure to make sure the Line would not reopen. Today an excavator would clear it out in a couple of hours!
Great information to know. The filling in of the cutting would explain why I had so much trouble trying to follow the path - as I was looking for that exact cutting. Thanks again for the share.
The Rushcutters Bay Depot was still in existence into the 1980s( maybe into the 90s) as a Bowling Alley; I remember driving past it in my early car driving years.Also, before the introduction of the R and later R1 class trams in the 1930s, the Watson's Bay line was served by J and later K class single truck 4 wheel trams from 1904 and 1908 respectively due to the many steep grades and sharp curves which were a feature of the line, and , AFAIK track brakes. The Js and Ks were replaced by the R and R1 class from 1933 onwards
thanks for the memories! I guess a former tram / bus depot is perfect for a bowling alley... but even then they fell out of popularity.. Those J and K trams must have been tiny compared to those of today.. even the R class which were 'big' then.. seem so tiny (I drive past the one at Narrabeen a few times a month and always think.. gosh how small they are).
Thanks for the feedback. I am with you. I have known of this shot for a number of years - and I also believed it was from the US Fleet Visit. But in searching for it to add to the video I discovered this reference: archives.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/nodes/view/596634 So I just went with that. But who knows. Could be wrong. And I just looked up the history of that tram: "Sydney J Class 679 entered service on Christmas Eve, 1904. Windscreens and air brakes were fitted in 1913 and it remained in service until May 1936." - so that doesn't really help us to date the shot.
Gosh you are right. I have the book as well. That is where I must have recalled it from. Just looked through and yes on Page 35. Thanks for your eagle eye! Unfortunately I can't edit the video now it is up. But I will make reference to error in the comments. Thanks!
@backtracks.channel all good. Just LOVE your videos. Please post as much as you can about the old Sydney system. I live in Melbourne, not Sydney, but I go there a lot & I love to see where they once were
The cable house for the Rose Bay Tram was in Mahoney Lane exactly where the Eastern Suburbs Railway viaduct is.After the cable drum was removed it became a film studio.
Labor closed almost all of the system unfortunately, and made a bit of a hash of the return of LR with the first section of the L1 Line to Wentworth Park with short platforms and a meandering poorly-planned alignment. The bulk of the closures (about 175km) ocurred from 1953-1960. The Eastern Suburbs Railway had already started construction then, and was originally planned to run beyond the current terminus at Bondi Junction to Randwick and Kingsford which would have taken the pressure off the buses which we're to replace the tram system. At the outset of construction on the ESR the Government had been very clear that the trams would remain until the ESR was open, but as ESR construction dragged on and more and more problems ocurred they seem to have abandoned this rationale and just closed all the Eastern Suburbs tram network by 1960 & 1961 (despite it taking another 18 years to finally open the ESR). Closing the Anzac Parade lines made no sense, even If other closures did make a bit of sense - they had a dedicated reservation for much of their length or ran in wide roads not suffering as much congestion as others; they were popular and well-run; they ran via the SCG and could carry far more of the events crowds than buses, could; and they could have used the rest of the newer trams from the already-closed parts of the network (at the time dozens of trams that got scrapped burnt or sold to Melbourne for pennies were less than 15 years old, some were less than 10yo). A disaster.
@@robertcox1835 the Government could have specified for longer platforms or the space be left to retrofit them, they are only 33m whereas they should have been 50m like the Gold Coast LR. The Government could have made the sensible decision not to run via the peninsula or at least made provisions not to build the line in such a way that it is now too difficult to run the outer section more directly to the city through all the slow curves and indirect alignment. The Government later bought shit trams that are slow, dont have enough doors and cant handle the curves into Central whereas the original trams at least got part of this right. The Government also built the Line with a crap station and track arrangement for a terminus at Lilyfield a few years later, and then made it even worse at Dulwich Hill which cant turn back enough trams to run a high frequency needed during peak and Had an awful long interchange to Dulwich Hill Station until Metro came and fixed it up last year. The line is a disaster.
Yes that period from after the WW2 to the mid 1950s there was a definite anti tram hysteria across the world. So governments of all persuasions caught it at the time. I guess just it would have happened anyway - but labor was in power at the time? And thanks for the history of the ESR. I just remembered - and probably could have mentioned in the video - but I rode the ESR on the first day it opened. from memory it only was running a shuttle from Central to Bondi Junction at that point? Thanks Mum for forcing me to go to it :)
@@backtracks.channel Possibly true - there was nothing certain about it, it was a political choice just like closing rail lines all over the place without even trying to reduce costs and improve returns. Brisbane had hardly closed much of the core part of their tram system well into the 1960s until fire destroyed a large part of their rolling stock as I am sure you are aware, and most of their busier lines were still operating and quite popular until the late 1960s. Other systems in Victoria hung on into the 1970s without much fuss or loss of track; whilst Adelaide kept and even invested in improvements to their busiest line after the anti-tram sentiment had already taken hold as you rightly point out. I would contend the Anzac Parade lines (including Marboura and Coogee) could have been Sydney's version of the same thing Adelaide did given that it mostly had grade separation or large wide streets, ran past massive attractors like UNSW+SCG+Beaches, and would have complemented rather than competed with the planned ESR. I am a 90s kid so I can only go off the official sources I have read, but yes I've read the ESR was only a Redfern to Bondi Jct shuttle line for at least the initial operations. Originally it was only planned to have a single-track connection to the Erskineville tracks, which on the face of it seems like a poor idea but actually might have been better remaining as a separate self-contained system running single-deck automated trains which was already being built at that time in places like London, Washington DC and San Francisco. This line could have then been extended through Green Square and Airport instead of the rather poor Airport line we ended up with, but that's history!
Would have loved to be alive then to have bought myself an old tram.. of course the issue as where I would put it as I would have been living in Sydney would have been my next challenge.
Like. Subscribe. All notifications. I’ve lived in both Auckland and Sydney and will never accept any logic that might have prevailed at the time resulting in the total removal of all tracks and services.
Thanks for watching. Yes making these videos I have learns a lot more about both networks. Auckland for me is a place that sort of is in between heavy rail and trams. They could certainly have done with modern light rail network - that ran on streets in the downtown area that then also ran on reservations into the suburbs. A bit like what could have been in Adelaide, Hobart, and Perth as well.
@@backtracks.channel much appreciate your personal and in depth reply. In my opinion, one of the issues in New Zealand is the three year term of government. Same in Australia. Sure, most governments serve a min of six years but in other places in the world a term is often four or sometimes five years. One political party promises a new rail line. Then spend $$$ on a feasibility study. By then a new government is in place and they simply can the entire project. Eventually, someone wakes up and it’s 50 years later and we are still talking about it. Thanks again. Zoltán
Agree. 3 years is way too short for federal. 4 years for state - maybe is working OK. I do think in NSW our less regular change of governments is helping to date ie about 12 years before they change as successive Labor and Liberal governments are delivering some pretty significant public transport projects ie the three metro lines and a new harbour road crossing in progress.. But my main concern now is that the current government is not announcing anything new - so in 5 - 7 years it will be noticed - nothing about extending the current light rail network to the Zetland Corridor, or along Parramatta Road, or extending current line to Maroubra / Pagewood. No extension for the M6 south to Waterfall etc..
nothing stupid. Ancient trams occupying streets with rails even when they are not there, slooooooowly crawling with 50 passengers. In 1920 it was good - as nothing else existed at all, in 1960 it was obsolete ugly thing. In 2024 its museum thing, even modern LR for $3B is much worse than possible bus service on the same route (see Tways and Adelaide OBahn) Melbourne trams in a nightmare. For the same reasons - slow and expensive to operate.
But Melbourne's trams came under threat from the then Liberal premier Sir Henry Bolte, who wanted Melbourne's tram system closed. He couldn't do it because Melbourne's trams were run by a QUANGO, the Melbourne & Metropolitan Tramways Board, and not the State government. He did though close the Ballarat and Bendigo systems because the Victorian State Govt did own those.
Thanks Marty, The system should have never been dismantled i don't know what political party was in government at the time but it was a stupid decision, I really miss them.🚊🛤😲😞
Labor closed almost all of the system, the bulk of the closures (about 175km) ocurred from 1953-1960. The Eastern Suburbs Railway had already started construction then, and was originally planned to run beyond the current terminus at Bondi Junction to Randwick and Kingsford which would have taken the pressure off the buses which we're to replace the tram system. At the outset of construction on the ESR the Government had been very clear that the trams would remain until the ESR was open, but as ESR construction dragged on and more and more problems ocurred they seem to have abandoned this rationale and Just closed all the Eastern Suburbs lines by 1961. Closing the Anzac Parade lines made no sense, even If other closures did make a bit of sense - they had a dedicated reservation for much of their length or ran in wide roads, they were popular and well-run, they ran via the SCG and could carry more crowds than buses, and could have used the rest of the new trams (at the time dozens of trams that got scrapped burnt or sold to Melbourne for pennies were less than 15 years old, some were less than 10yo). A disaster.
All across the world during the 50s and 60s a little company now known as Exxon Mobil went around lobbying/bribing cities and governments to rip out trams and build highways and only a few like Melbourne and Sanfran told them to piss off
Great documentation of this very popular tramline. That international airport at Rose Bay came about after WW2 during which it was a base for the Catalina floating boats
Thanks for watching. What a great history of the flying boat base thanks for sharing.
Thanks for your recollection video. Wonderful. I was born 1960 and grew up in Watson's Bay, sadly missed the last tram. Always felt the trams in my bones when riding my bike to school. I saw the remainders of the tracks on the roads. Wow.
Glad you enjoyed it. To this day, bikes and tram tracks don't mix :)
And just think what a tourist attraction it would be today if the tram still went to Watsons Bay.
Hi Marty, thanks for another excellent video. I remember this tram line very well. At Queens Square, I remember the trams terminating there in later years in a loop. It was quite close to St James railway station. The line was still referred as the King Street line, despite of it being cut back from there. I remember on one occasion back in the late 1960s, actually going to the Sydney Stadium to see the wrestling. That was all later moved to the Hordern Pavilion. In around 1963 my dad and I were in the Watson's Bay area and we discovered remains of part of the Watson's Bay tram line in the Gap Park reserved area. We told the people at Loftus Tram Museum and soon after, they collected it all. Just an extra piece of info for you. Part of the SPER video shown of the Watson's Bay trams was from the collection of the late Ben Parle, who filmed several of the remaining Sydney tram lines still in operation from late 1958 until the closure in 1961 on Standard 8 movie film. Anyway, take care. Rob in Melbourne Australia.
Thanks for sharing great memories. Specifically on what you discovered at Watsons Bay. BTW I grew up in the southern suburbs of Sydney and we visited the old Loftus Tram museum many a time.. I don't even know if you had to pay back then (should ask my mum).. so partially thanks to you I have such an interest in trams...
And in researching these videos I feel like I know many of the great people who documented the trams of Sydney - like Ben Parle, Vic Solomon, Noel Reed et al. Wish I was in the generation to meet them.
I actually grew up in Marrickville and was there until moving to Melbourne in June 1981. My mum passed away when I was nine years old and my dad brought me up from then. My dad took me on many of the Sydney trams as a child and I have vivid memories of them. My favourite tram journey was the one from Wynyard across the Harbour Bridge. I met Ben Parle during the late 1970s and visited him on several occasions. He used to live at Turramurra. The first movie that Ben showed me was Brisbane and i was absolutely amazed at all the detail of the trams in the film. he later showed me some of his Sydney tram film collection. I also knew Vic Solomons.
At the old Loftus Tram Museum site, it was free to enter, but you then paid for the tram trips. From memory, there was an all day ticket available along with single trip tickets.
Thanks for sharing those stories.. appreciate it.
Thank You So Much For That!! I Lived In Elizabeth Bay In The 60's And 70's, And Grew Up In Kings Cross Through The Vietnam War, And The Huge Moratorium Marches There! I Spent All My Formative Years In The Eastern Suburbs, And This Post Brought Tears To The Eyes!! The Rose Bay Airport Actually Went On Much Longer, From Memory Late Into The 70's, Even Perhaps 80's, Servicing Lord Howe Island Mainly, With Sunderland Flying Boats. As A Kid, And At Low Tide, I Could Walk The Foreshore From Rushcutters Bay To Watson's Bay, Without Leaving The Water's Edge!! You Could Only Do It One Way, Or Be Caught By The Tide, But It Was A Fantastic Hike, With A Good Bit Of Rock Climbing Around The Shore!! I Would Sit On A High Rock At "Toft Monks" At The Head Of Rushcutters Bay Called "Horse's Head;" It's Still There!! As A Small Child I Would Watch The Harbour Traffic From This Vantage Point; The "South Steyne" And "North Head," And All The Other Venerable Vessels Of The Harbour, Including "Radar," Which I Believe Is Still Plying The Harbour Under Another Name! Where The Rushcutters Bay Depot Was, They Built A Hotel, Under Which Was The Longest And Greatest Slot-Car Track In The Southern Hemisphere, And Also The Largest 10-Pin Bowling Establishment/Club!! I Could Go On All Bloody Day, But Just: Thanks Again, From An Old Bloke!!!
You are correct about the Flying Boats operating into the 1970s. My sister flew on one to Lord Howe Island in 1973 I think; that was the only way to get there then.
@ktipuss Actually, I Should Have Said Lord Howe; Now You've Reminded Me, That Was The Main Destination. I'm Pretty Sure I Saw Those Sunderland's Operating Well Into The 80's From Rose Bay, One Of The Really Beautiful Places In Sydney!! Thanks For The Reminder; They Were Indeed Most Happy, And Elegant Times, With A Very Healthy, Well Informed And Vibrant Society, Which Gathered Together Often In A Way Not Even Contemplated Today!!
Thanks for the great memories. Yes Seaplanes still operate even today - like up to the Hawkesbury River. I read somewhere when Qantas stopped flying internationally - they literally just gave their planes to Ansett to fly the Lord Howe Island route.
My grandparents lived in Gap Rd Watsons Bay, my brother and I when we were kids used to collect the bolts that held the tracks down that were left behind.
Darlinghurst Fire Station [5:10] was designed by English architect, Colonel Walter Liberty Vernon, who was the NSW Government Architect for 21 years. Vernon designed Central station. The funeral for Vernon was held at St James’ Church which is by the former terminus loop line [3:38].
Vernon Circle, Canberra, named after the colonel, is the massive roundabout which is 230 metres in diameter. The circle, which contains City Hill park, will have a new extension of the Canberra light rail running on the hexagon shaped road which surrounds the circle, London Circuit, on its western edge.
Incidentally, Vernon shares the same given name of Walter Burley Griffin, the American architect who designed Canberra.
Thanks for the share. I didn't know that. Love the name connection to Canberra.
Kudos Marty and welcome back to the city I grew-up in. This brings back many memories as my Nan and Pop lived in Point Piper. This was the late 1960s and I distinctly remember the green double-decker bus and the 399 bus route. Why? I have no idea. Seeing Sydney has made me very homesick, as I haven't been back in 30 years.
I grew up in 'The Shire" from the mid-60s and I remember the tram museum at Loftus vividly. Is it still open? I was very lucky to have a father who was a member of the RVCP (Royal Volunteer Coastal Patrol) based in Botany Bay near the runways. Around 1969 I went with him when he was working on a Saturday, manning the radios. The base was actually inside the airport, using the very old control tower buildings. He had a key that would open a gate allowing access. After his shift had finished, he took me out towards the runway to the boundary fence line and we both lay on our backs watching massive jets landing above us. I've never forgotten that moment. You could almost touch them, and the noise and jet-blast was absolute joy.
The Loftus tramway museum is absolutely still open, I was there recently. It has a number of interesting vehicles added to its collection including one of the original Variotrams used on the return of trams to Sydney with the opening of the Wentworth Park line which were the first low-floor accessible trams in Australia; and trams from post-war Nagasaki and Berlin among a host of Sydney + Melbourne + Brisbane trams, and a veteran from Adelaide that was in service for decades on the original "Light Rail"-style operations there.
you will be sadder still if you ever go back
@@tompchromedome Nonsense, Sydney has made some massive strides forward over the last few years after a bit of a low point with the lockout laws and so on. Removal of the tram system was another low point as was the infrastructure failures of the previous Labor Government in the 1990s and 2000s.
The Sydney Tramway Museum is still open and they even have a TH-cam channel if you are interested.
@@BigBlueMan118 I was referring to the increase human shit
Marty you have outdone yourself mate. I grew up in that general area and had no idea of the things you discuss. I was 10 pin bowling on-top of the old tram depot, biking with friends over/near the Sydney stadium (never knew about it) and watching small charter sea planes take off and land with parents without realising the airport part. What a brutal end of history for this line.
Glad you enjoyed it. Yes so much history just under our feet (or bike) :) I am discovering a lot of this myself as I make the videos.
Until 2020 the tramline right of way at 9:36 was still little more than a rough track with railway ballast still evident on it. Almost nobody realised what it actually was. It seems that Woollahra Council (or National Parks?) took advantage of the Covid19 period to do work on that track to upgrade it and make it less of a trip hazard (and protect the roots of that Moreton Bay Fig tree there with that little ramp). It is also now signposted as a former tramway track so it will now see a lot more use from walkers.
Unfortunately the cutting at 9:36 was filled in soon after closure, no doubt as another measure to make sure the Line would not reopen. Today an excavator would clear it out in a couple of hours!
Great information to know. The filling in of the cutting would explain why I had so much trouble trying to follow the path - as I was looking for that exact cutting. Thanks again for the share.
Thank you, very well presented and narrated!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thank you for the great video / what a shame Sydney got rid of its trams
Thank you, that was a very beautiful video
Glad you enjoyed it!
The Rushcutters Bay Depot was still in existence into the 1980s( maybe into the 90s) as a Bowling Alley; I remember driving past it in my early car driving years.Also, before the introduction of the R and later R1 class trams in the 1930s, the Watson's Bay line was served by J and later K class single truck 4 wheel trams from 1904 and 1908 respectively due to the many steep grades and sharp curves which were a feature of the line, and , AFAIK track brakes. The Js and Ks were replaced by the R and R1 class from 1933 onwards
thanks for the memories! I guess a former tram / bus depot is perfect for a bowling alley... but even then they fell out of popularity..
Those J and K trams must have been tiny compared to those of today.. even the R class which were 'big' then.. seem so tiny (I drive past the one at Narrabeen a few times a month and always think.. gosh how small they are).
Excellent. I remember it.
Actually that picture isn't from armistice day, it's from the visit of the US fleet in 1908 (I think). People flocked to thr heads to see the fleet
Thanks for the feedback. I am with you. I have known of this shot for a number of years - and I also believed it was from the US Fleet Visit. But in searching for it to add to the video I discovered this reference: archives.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/nodes/view/596634
So I just went with that. But who knows. Could be wrong.
And I just looked up the history of that tram: "Sydney J Class 679 entered service on Christmas Eve, 1904. Windscreens and air brakes were fitted in 1913 and it remained in service until May 1936." - so that doesn't really help us to date the shot.
@backtracks.channel I think I saw it in the Watson's Bay tram book and was labelled as such. I can check for you as I have that book
Yep. I just found it in my book. It's labelled as such. Us fleet visit, august 20, 1908
Gosh you are right. I have the book as well. That is where I must have recalled it from. Just looked through and yes on Page 35. Thanks for your eagle eye! Unfortunately I can't edit the video now it is up. But I will make reference to error in the comments. Thanks!
@backtracks.channel all good. Just LOVE your videos. Please post as much as you can about the old Sydney system. I live in Melbourne, not Sydney, but I go there a lot & I love to see where they once were
Another superb video 🙂
Thanks again!
The cable house for the Rose Bay Tram was in Mahoney Lane exactly where the Eastern Suburbs Railway viaduct is.After the cable drum was removed it became a film studio.
Oh, didn't know that about the films studio. Thanks for the share.
Labor closed almost all of the system unfortunately, and made a bit of a hash of the return of LR with the first section of the L1 Line to Wentworth Park with short platforms and a meandering poorly-planned alignment. The bulk of the closures (about 175km) ocurred from 1953-1960. The Eastern Suburbs Railway had already started construction then, and was originally planned to run beyond the current terminus at Bondi Junction to Randwick and Kingsford which would have taken the pressure off the buses which we're to replace the tram system. At the outset of construction on the ESR the Government had been very clear that the trams would remain until the ESR was open, but as ESR construction dragged on and more and more problems ocurred they seem to have abandoned this rationale and just closed all the Eastern Suburbs tram network by 1960 & 1961 (despite it taking another 18 years to finally open the ESR).
Closing the Anzac Parade lines made no sense, even If other closures did make a bit of sense - they had a dedicated reservation for much of their length or ran in wide roads not suffering as much congestion as others; they were popular and well-run; they ran via the SCG and could carry far more of the events crowds than buses, could; and they could have used the rest of the newer trams from the already-closed parts of the network (at the time dozens of trams that got scrapped burnt or sold to Melbourne for pennies were less than 15 years old, some were less than 10yo). A disaster.
The first section of the LR was built and run by a private operator.
@@robertcox1835 the Government could have specified for longer platforms or the space be left to retrofit them, they are only 33m whereas they should have been 50m like the Gold Coast LR. The Government could have made the sensible decision not to run via the peninsula or at least made provisions not to build the line in such a way that it is now too difficult to run the outer section more directly to the city through all the slow curves and indirect alignment. The Government later bought shit trams that are slow, dont have enough doors and cant handle the curves into Central whereas the original trams at least got part of this right. The Government also built the Line with a crap station and track arrangement for a terminus at Lilyfield a few years later, and then made it even worse at Dulwich Hill which cant turn back enough trams to run a high frequency needed during peak and Had an awful long interchange to Dulwich Hill Station until Metro came and fixed it up last year. The line is a disaster.
Labor/Liberal. Why bring up who was to blame? We are all responsible for lots of idiocies.
Yes that period from after the WW2 to the mid 1950s there was a definite anti tram hysteria across the world. So governments of all persuasions caught it at the time. I guess just it would have happened anyway - but labor was in power at the time?
And thanks for the history of the ESR. I just remembered - and probably could have mentioned in the video - but I rode the ESR on the first day it opened. from memory it only was running a shuttle from Central to Bondi Junction at that point? Thanks Mum for forcing me to go to it :)
@@backtracks.channel Possibly true - there was nothing certain about it, it was a political choice just like closing rail lines all over the place without even trying to reduce costs and improve returns. Brisbane had hardly closed much of the core part of their tram system well into the 1960s until fire destroyed a large part of their rolling stock as I am sure you are aware, and most of their busier lines were still operating and quite popular until the late 1960s. Other systems in Victoria hung on into the 1970s without much fuss or loss of track; whilst Adelaide kept and even invested in improvements to their busiest line after the anti-tram sentiment had already taken hold as you rightly point out. I would contend the Anzac Parade lines (including Marboura and Coogee) could have been Sydney's version of the same thing Adelaide did given that it mostly had grade separation or large wide streets, ran past massive attractors like UNSW+SCG+Beaches, and would have complemented rather than competed with the planned ESR.
I am a 90s kid so I can only go off the official sources I have read, but yes I've read the ESR was only a Redfern to Bondi Jct shuttle line for at least the initial operations. Originally it was only planned to have a single-track connection to the Erskineville tracks, which on the face of it seems like a poor idea but actually might have been better remaining as a separate self-contained system running single-deck automated trains which was already being built at that time in places like London, Washington DC and San Francisco. This line could have then been extended through Green Square and Airport instead of the rather poor Airport line we ended up with, but that's history!
11:02 - but some of them were sold as sheds on private properties
Would have loved to be alive then to have bought myself an old tram.. of course the issue as where I would put it as I would have been living in Sydney would have been my next challenge.
Like. Subscribe. All notifications. I’ve lived in both Auckland and Sydney and will never accept any logic that might have prevailed at the time resulting in the total removal of all tracks and services.
Thanks for watching. Yes making these videos I have learns a lot more about both networks. Auckland for me is a place that sort of is in between heavy rail and trams. They could certainly have done with modern light rail network - that ran on streets in the downtown area that then also ran on reservations into the suburbs. A bit like what could have been in Adelaide, Hobart, and Perth as well.
@@backtracks.channel much appreciate your personal and in depth reply.
In my opinion, one of the issues in New Zealand is the three year term of government. Same in Australia. Sure, most governments serve a min of six years but in other places in the world a term is often four or sometimes five years. One political party promises a new rail line. Then spend $$$ on a feasibility study. By then a new government is in place and they simply can the entire project. Eventually, someone wakes up and it’s 50 years later and we are still talking about it. Thanks again. Zoltán
Agree. 3 years is way too short for federal. 4 years for state - maybe is working OK. I do think in NSW our less regular change of governments is helping to date ie about 12 years before they change as successive Labor and Liberal governments are delivering some pretty significant public transport projects ie the three metro lines and a new harbour road crossing in progress..
But my main concern now is that the current government is not announcing anything new - so in 5 - 7 years it will be noticed - nothing about extending the current light rail network to the Zetland Corridor, or along Parramatta Road, or extending current line to Maroubra / Pagewood. No extension for the M6 south to Waterfall etc..
So sad
What a stupid thing to remove the Sydney tram network....at least Melbourne was smart we kept our....!
nothing stupid. Ancient trams occupying streets with rails even when they are not there, slooooooowly crawling with 50 passengers. In 1920 it was good - as nothing else existed at all, in 1960 it was obsolete ugly thing. In 2024 its museum thing, even modern LR for $3B is much worse than possible bus service on the same route (see Tways and Adelaide OBahn)
Melbourne trams in a nightmare. For the same reasons - slow and expensive to operate.
But Melbourne's trams came under threat from the then Liberal premier Sir Henry Bolte, who wanted Melbourne's tram system closed. He couldn't do it because Melbourne's trams were run by a QUANGO, the Melbourne & Metropolitan Tramways Board, and not the State government. He did though close the Ballarat and Bendigo systems because the Victorian State Govt did own those.
@@antontsau Agreed. Needs must. The tram network was slow and inefficient and was hampering the boom of car and truck traffic in the 1950s.
Thanks Marty, The system should have never been dismantled i don't know what political party was in government at the time but it was a stupid decision, I really miss them.🚊🛤😲😞
Labor closed almost all of the system, the bulk of the closures (about 175km) ocurred from 1953-1960. The Eastern Suburbs Railway had already started construction then, and was originally planned to run beyond the current terminus at Bondi Junction to Randwick and Kingsford which would have taken the pressure off the buses which we're to replace the tram system. At the outset of construction on the ESR the Government had been very clear that the trams would remain until the ESR was open, but as ESR construction dragged on and more and more problems ocurred they seem to have abandoned this rationale and Just closed all the Eastern Suburbs lines by 1961.
Closing the Anzac Parade lines made no sense, even If other closures did make a bit of sense - they had a dedicated reservation for much of their length or ran in wide roads, they were popular and well-run, they ran via the SCG and could carry more crowds than buses, and could have used the rest of the new trams (at the time dozens of trams that got scrapped burnt or sold to Melbourne for pennies were less than 15 years old, some were less than 10yo). A disaster.
auto and petrol industries were behind it
All across the world during the 50s and 60s a little company now known as Exxon Mobil went around lobbying/bribing cities and governments to rip out trams and build highways and only a few like Melbourne and Sanfran told them to piss off
It was an ALP Government. J.J. Cahill was probably the premier.
The NRMA had a big hand in it as well.