You can't tell me that losing parking spaces at Coogee beach will make it lose it's vibrancy, a pedestrian mall and interchange would transform a glorified car par to a friendly, inviting hub.
Hi thanks for watching and for the comment.. appreciate it... and looks like lots agree with you.. I think I phrased it wrongly.. what was in my mind when I said it was when I was there and I was picturing a big concrete light rail station right in the middle of Coogee Bay road outside of the hotel.. I thought maybe would make it all feel a bit less vibrant as you don't have all the bustle of the street today and a big quite soulless 'train station' right in the middle of it all. Maybe best to put that a block back. And perhaps even then make a pedestrian mall from there to Arden Street.
All Sydney beaches are completely clogged with horrible vehicular traffic. Going to Sydney beaches is actually quite a stressful experience because of all the aggressive and impatient car drivers who are frustrated because they can’t find somewhere to park their 2 tonne metal/plastic box on 4 wheels.
i worked on the light rail and the original plan was from the now terminus at POW hospital it would continue up to bondi junction and meet with the train line. The randwick line was also meant to go to maroubra junction. both were cut due to opposition from residents and cost blowouts.
Thanks for the share - I didn't know that. Very interesting. They do both. somewhat feel 'unfinished'. Can you recall what would have roughly been the route from Randwick to Bondi? Assume go north Avoca Street to Queens Park but there it's not so clear as mostly quiet residential streets directly from there to Bondi Junction.
@@SherifRichman The government works on the basis of following the latest shiny object.. at the moment it's metro. What we actually need is a mix of bus, tram, metro and heavy rail (and probably something in between) making maximum use of existing infrastructure.
@@jack2453 The something inbetween is active transport strategy i.e. having basic amenities within walking distance and slightly less basic amenities within cycling distance
Its especially worse outside of the sydney-parra network with newcastle's tram being pretty much dead in the water alongside a stain in the fact its built off corruption. Places like Wallsend are growing yet no train line or tram line service connecting
Sydney had an enormous tram network, one of the largest, if not the largest in the world, in the first half of the last century. Newcastle also had an extensive tram network back then. Now that the government is returning trams to Sydney, it would be logical to be doing the same in Newcastle. Trouble is that Newcastle always misses out as being "regional" when metropolitan planning is done. But it also gets labelled as "metropolitan" when funds are allocated for regional planning. Go figure! So I won't be holding my breath waiting for the government to allocate any meaningful planning resources to Newcastle for a rebuild of that city's tram/light rail network.
Sorry to burst your bubble there a bit mate but it was never even close to the largest networks in the world, Sydney reached nearly 300km for just a few years then fairly quickly dropped back to around 200km and declined steadily from there. Chicago and Los Angeles had over 1000km, Berlin and Moscow had over 500km. Buenos Aires had the largest in the southern hemisphere with over 600km. Indeed Sydney only had more than Melbourne for a few decades, for the final decade of Sydney’s trams it was already significantly below Melbourne's, though indie carry more passengers I believe. As for Newcastle they have big plans for the broadmeadows revelopment and there are several transit-oriented development precincts too plus high speed rail coming so they will certainly get their turn.
Largest in the commonwealth. There were more bigger networks in typical tram term or if you include trolleys (which are just a hybrid of a tram and train)
@@murraykitson1436 Without doing a deep-dive on it I can't say for sure, but Wikipedia has the following list of "Largest Tram Systems Ever": LA 1770km Chicago 1600km Paris 1110km Buenos Aires 875km St Petersburg 700km Detroit 640km Berlin 624km Moscow 520km London 523km San Francisco 489km Manchester 470km Rio de Janiero 433km Washington D.C. 320km Vienna 318km Sacramento 295km Sydney 291km (1930s) San Diego 266km Melbourne 259km (current)
Some very interesting proposals. However, the most beneficial ones, in my opinion, are the "L6" Parramatta Road Line from Summer Hill to Green Square and the Eastern Suburbs Line from Central to Bondi. Other proposals that I'd think would be beneficial would be Light Rail Line extensions from Carlingford to Epping, Juniors Kingsford to La Perouse, Randwick to Coogee and a Light Rail line from Parramatta to Macquarie Centre/University (which is a line that the TH-cam channel Building Beautifully conceived in an attempt to close the public transport gap between Epping/Macquarie Park and Parramtta.)
Thanks. Yes I tend to agree.. the L6 and Bondi line would be the priorities for me. Having said that both extending to Coogee and Maroubra would be relatively easy to build and straightaway add capacity to both L2 and L3. Like the other idea.. am capturing them for a future video. thanks!
Conversion of the northwestern Tway into a Tram line that intersects with the metro at mulitiple points. Could allow multiple busses to be turned into a more suburban based services. Hopefully silencing the majority of thre "needs more car park crowd".
I have mentioned this previously and suggested the extension of the Parramatta Light Rail from Westmead , along the T-Way , with Metro interchanges at Bella Vista and Rouse Hill .
Crows Nest to Balmoral and then across The Spit and all the way to Newport. Or a metro tunnel to the Northern Beaches. The Woy Woy to Palm Beach Ferry is quicker than the M1, so that's an option for commuting from Central Coast as well.
Light Rail is absolutely the best transport solution for cities. How stupid the NSW government was in the mid-twentieth century to get rid of them! It's good to seet good to see that a new generation is seriously looking at giving Sydney a tram network again.
1: fix the missing link between Carlingford light rail and Epping heavy rail and Metro. 2: Replace the rapid bus lane between Parramatta on Old Windsor Road and take it to Talloaeong Metro. Either light rail or a second Metro branch line.
Good spot re the the Elizabeth Street link. George street is great - but slow. Any serious expanson of light rail in the east of Sydney needs a faster, higher capacity connection between Central and the Quay. This is the big flaw in the ALTRAC L5 proposal.
Hi Marty, thanks for another great video. The only problem with a new line to Bondi is that the original cutting is no longer available. It is a pity they didn't keep that reservation area. It would be great if all these lines could become a reality. If they decide to run the light rail back to Darling Street Wharf, they may need to get the counterweight back. Bringing light rail along Elizabeth would be excellent and would pass Museum and St James stations, as the trams used to do in the old days. They could also extend the light rail to La Perouse, reusing the reservation there. Incidentally, what about taking back the two road lanes on the east side of the Sydney Harbour Bridge, converting it to light rail, running from North Sydney through to Wynyard station platforms 1 and 2? This should ease road traffic on the Harbour Bridge. At the tunnel end, they only need to turn the Cahill Expressway exit slightly to allow the tram tunnel to be accessed again. Road traffic shouldn't suffer too much, especially when they now have the Harbour Road Tunnel as an alternative way across. Anyway, that is just my idea. Take care and all the very best. Rob in Melbourne Australia.
It would be better for the eastern 2 lanes of the Harbour Briddge to turn straight on to the Cahill Expressway - which will be redundant once the 3rd harbour crossing opens.
Yes be good to do a video on the West. I need to do research on what / if any lines are being proposed out there... otherwise we can just 'make our own suggestions'.. I will put Penrith on list for consideration when I make the video...
Definitely agree with this. The council were actually considering a "light rail" in Penrith years ago which was just an over glorified bus like Brisbane's Metro. Thank god that was scrapped.
A short video on the potential expansion to Newcastle light rail would be great. I think Newcastle in the next few decades is poised for major growth especially with the talk of fast rail to Sydney.
There were a whole bunch of proposals branching out of Parramatta. This includes lines to Castle Hill, Macquarie Park, and Bankstown. Those were rejected leaving the 2 stages of the PLR.
Thanks! Yes need to do some research on that. Sounds interesting to dig into. This was only based on ALTRAC's document and as they don't run the Parramatta line they didn't have any proposals on that.
Hi would you think it would be feasible to extend light rail from Green Square/Waterloo down Botany Rd all the way to Port Botany possibly linking at La Perouse, or do you think it better served by buses?
Good question. Yes when I last went down that part of Sydney it didn't feel that high density of housing - so I wonder if there would be enough demand for Light Rail and that buses for the timebeing would still be better. The tram used to run down to Port Botany and then for a while also connected from there to La Perouse - so you could get a tram to La Perouse via Botany or via Maroubra.
Lots of proposals for extensions to L3 focus on the old Anzac Pde tramway... this misses the point of the enormous development at Eastgardens. So maybe Bunnerong Rd would be better or extend to Maroubra J and then across to Eastgardens.
Like the idea of going to Eastgardens.. my thought like yours was still go via Maroubra Junction.. could just turn west on Maroubra Road - which is very wide and could take light rail easily... there is not yet the housing density south of Maroubra J to justify going much further south along Anzac Pde in my view...
Yes, agree way more effective to extend the heavy rail line than build a tram for people wanting to get to and from Bondi Beach. But I guess a light rail line also benefits the whole Oxford Street corridor to Bondi Junction as well. Unfortunately, I don’t expect either to be built so it’s just fun speculation at this stage
My man you should upload a full comprehensive video proposal for Light rail lines in Sydney like what Building Beautifully did with the metro. I would love to see where you think areas of Sydney could do with a light rail line, I would love to watch that, even if it is totally unrealistic and unlikely to happen.
Agree.. making these TH-cam videos is like having your own model trainset.. just its virtual.. and possibly quite a bit less expensive.. albeit the storage of the footage of these video has cost me heaps in additional disk space haha.
Thanks. Yes that's such an interesting part of our tram history.. I have got some footage of the actual tram and what the jail looks like today.. just on my list to find time to make a video on it.
Would be very interested to see Light Rail proposals for northern Sydney as well as the east and west of the CBD. Along the Pacific Highway through the lower North Shore to Chatswood, Willoughby and maybe beyond to Roseville or further. Even if it's a major hypothetical I'd be keen to hear some ideas how it could all work.
yes there was once such a wonderful North Sydney tram network. But now with new patterns of travel - one would not rebuild it the same as it once was - eg it was first build around servicing ferry wharves. But lines like North Sydney to Chatswood via Willoughby - still would be useful today.. and certainly along Military Road - and that was a possiblity if they had have built BEACHES LINK road tunnel to Balgowlah. as northern beaches traffic would not then travel along Military / Spit Road anymore. Thanks for watching! Cheers m
A team connecting Central and Bondi Beach going down Oxford St would be great but after they've added such wide bicycle lanes all along Oxford St I worry that it won't be practical to build light rail down Oxford St as there won't be enough space. At least there should be a tram line from Bondi Junction to Bondi Beach
For a supporter of bikes and trams like me, this is a genuine dilemma. What's the answer? We need cheaper sub-surface metros without gold plated stations.
The worst part of ANY engineering to metro/light rail is the amount of time they take to build it ... For 40 years we stopped building transport in Sydney and concentrated on road systems that will NEVER be big enough.... Wish government would just bite the bullet and build it ... 🙏 FAST!!!
By Australian standards, we didn't stop building public transport. We built the eastern suburbs line (1979), extended East Hills to connect with the main south line at Glenfield (1987), L1 in three stages (from 1995), T7 Olympic Park (1998), T8 Airport (2000), Chatswood - Epping, now part of M1 (2009), South West line, now part of T2 and T5 (2012), Epping - Tallawong, now part of M1 (2019), L2 to Randwick (2019), L3 to Juniors Kingsford (2020), M1 Chatswood - Sydenham (2024) and with L4 Westmead - Carlingford opening later in 2024)...plus M2 and M3 metros under construction along with L5 Parramatta River. Not to mention major electrifications to Newcastle (1984) and Kiama/South Coast (2001). Since 1980, Melbourne has only managed two short outer suburban extensions and zero electrifications. Thank god Sydney kept plugging away at growing its rail network. (And interestingly, it's a pretty even split between Labor and Liberal government projects.)
@@Robert-um6fr I take on your rail line data (btw the T7 line already existed in main to the Homebush abattoirs) .. they can't decide when/how to extend the light rail projects... what happened to the original western distributor road project, 1970's from memory, (meant to go from southern side of harbour bridge to Parramatta Road cutting out looping thru the city & Pyrmont Bridge Road) after the 1st section to China Town it was stopped by the incoming government..(known as the road to nowhere) Then re conceived it in 1985... and what happened to the Warringah Expressway, (only got to Naremburn but was meant to go to Manly via Castle Craig & Seaforth) again it was stopped by an incoming government. I worked the F3 Hornsby bypass that stopped at Pennant Hills Road.. The next stage was to loop and connect to M2 at Browns Waterhole but agin stopped in 1990.. The Badgerys Creek Airport now Western Sydney Airport.. How long was this project delayed..2002-2012 known as the decade of deferal and again untill 2020 when work finally began... The Mono rail was also known as the loop to nowhere ... Finishing the debunked Eastern Suburbs Railway (1947-1952 and restarted 1967-1979) .. .. again highlighting governments that could not continue conceived projects and continue being innovative... NOW they have to tunnel under everything .. My point being we can't commit to building infrastructure for the future with governments that react instead of being proactive
Thanks for the good discussion below.. i am going to guess it is about 10 years from announcement of a project to it being opened? So we should really be looking at what new is being announced now.. There are a lot of metros being built now (and that that is great).. but we'll see what comes from the current government on its 'mode agnostic' view of future rail. While what they decide (or not decide now) may not have much impact today.. it will in 10 years.
Thanks for this great summary of transport history in Sydney.. as a little kid I was at the opening day of the ESR in 1979.. my mum dragged me there - I recall not really being interested before we went, but when there I think something triggered... and possibly led to me making videos on TH-cam today :)
Yes how good would that be.. living this way myself I would fully support.. I think often about how exactly would they build it - as pretty challenging topography to get across Sydney harbour and then middle harbour.. a Metro may be better option... (even Beaches Link would have helped).
a light rail network with its Hub in the North Sydney/Victoria Cross area, extending from Milson's point Ferry Pier and Train station all the way out to northern beaches, because then direct access to the CBD can be reached by Metro and Train rather than needing another crossing, connecting different modes and giving the B line a break. Pls the main roads were all built for it.
Agree that the Balmain line would be great as a small tram semi-historic line but probably not feasible in the context of 'modern light rail' practice. Another great nostalgic line would be the old tram route through backstreet Paddington (389 bus route)
@@kerrymcdonagh1327 Probably agree. But the key point is that we will spend $2-3bn on a metro station at White Bay... we need to think about who is going to catch trains there, and how they're going to get there. I can't really imagine all the Balmain folk walking or cycling from all over the peninsula.
@@jack2453 that was my point as I figured the line would not get the patronage. Sydney Harbour is beautiful but really useless for passenger ship passenger movements (other than Circular Quay).
@@kerrymcdonagh1327 I'm sure it would patronage because the Balmain peninsula is densely populated and the metro at White Bay will be a big draw - but the need for labour-intensive smaller trams would kill it cost wise.
A selection of points: - A problem with light rail, especially when built on-street, it that its construction is often disruptive to businesses in that location for extended periods, without reimbursement. It will ultimately help most businesses along the route, but for a small business it can be too long to survive. - Light rail often involves extra costs generated by 'discovering' unanticipated pipelines, gas and electricity lines and communications cables while excavating the surface for tracks. This can be a significant problem in older areas where such infrastructure may even not be on any maps or diagrams. It's less of an issue where an existing right of way can be used, or in 'greenfield' areas. - So, because of the above (and other reasons), I suggest also give consideration to alternatives to modern low-floor light rail (like L1 to L4) - such as stadtbahn (city trains) and light metro. The Canadian vlogger RM Transit has good clips on both, and describes them far more lucidly than I ever could. - Hardly anyone seems to have noticed, but Greater Sydney is soon to get its first 'light metro' in the form of the WSI Airport Metro. It will be operating in quite a different environment than the other two metros. It is at the premium end of the concept, using 3 cars expandable to 4, driverless, running at grade / elevated / underground where appropriate, with a high passenger capacity, and the ability to surge to meet sudden demands within minutes. It's well suited for being a major Western N-S transport spine. - Other examples of light metros are things like the London DLR and Vancouver SkyTrain. At the other end of the scale are the small 'people-movers' such as used to transfer passengers (who have already been security checked) to and from distant terminals at major airports. The Miami Metro is an attempt to apply an elevated people mover system to provide transport within a city (though arguably not as successfully as the Gold Coast G-Link has done using light rail). - City trains can be used as a cheaper method for moving people mainly along dedicated tracks, but extending to on street running when needed. They sometimes take advantage of existing rights of way, (like up the grassed median or along the verge of existing major roads, or along power or canal easements, etc). They may also run fast on straight stretches, then slow right down to make tight turns or climb overpasses to negotiate 'urban obstacles' judged too expensive to remove. Examples of such systems are Hanover Stadtbahn, and Dallas and Denver airport links. - Western Sydney has places where light rail might work for local transport, but maybe not just yet. Penrith, Blacktown, Liverpool and Camden/Campbelltown all each have populations just over 200,000, That probably means each of their centres is still below the population density threshold for light rail right now, unless something else is creating demand. - Penrith, for example, has a set of sports venues, adventure attractions, entertainment / eat streets, shopping centres, rail stations, a major hospital and a university, all within the sort of distance that make sense for light rail. It would also help it further develop both a 'day' and 'night' economy, and make it a 'go to' place to commute to celebrate an event, run a conference, indulge in an afternoon game or adventure, or for an enjoyable evening out. Those attractions plus an ability to trundle easily between all of them, along with a suitable marketable image, could well make Penrith the dominant beneficiary of the close proximity of WSI. Plus Penrith is 'core west', and Westies are really good at making all that sort of stuff happen. - Not as sure whether the other centres (Blacktown, Liverpool / Fairfield, Camden / Campbelltown) are in quite as potentially good a position. Liverpool is in with a chance, but as a local government area, rather than a city CBD. The Airport and Bradfield are contained within its area. Liverpool will always be a bigger than Bradfield, with more affordable housing for rank and file airport workers, and with the M7 and the Moorebank Logistics Depot in its patch, it might do fine. - St Marys might also do well, say if it positions itself as a 'one short ride', well connected, affordable tourist and business traveller accommodation centre ('Stay in the West, and train it to the rest!). - I would disagree with using light rail to connect western city centres. They're just a bit too far apart, and LR is just a bit too slow, for that. For example, Penrith and Blacktown share an existing rail corridor, and improving it (e.g. quad the tracks west of St Marys, improve signalling, and run freight traffic on dedicated lines), would probably result in a much better solution. Generally, light rail should be limited to providing a set of trips that you could conceivably walk, but which are made a lot easier by getting the tram. - I certainly would also advocate more frequent bus services, longer hours of operating, and bus priority / stops to provide a more effective 'last mile' component of public transport; and for longer and lighter routes, such as airport buses between Liverpool et al and WSI.
Hi, thanks for the thought provoking response. Really like your great points. Especially the observation about other transport approaches.. I have been on all the LRTs in Singapore and a few at international airports around the world and the DLR in London.. you are right.. why don't we in Sydney ever consider these options?.. albeit those LRTs in Singapore are pretty unsightly.. but very efficient in feeding into a transport hub. And of course everything we build in Australia is so over engineered (and so expensive). I still can't believe the 'gauge' of the gantry poles for Sydney's light rail.. and while I love the new metro (and made a few TH-cams on it) did the stations really have to be that big? And yes how good is RM Transport. Reece is great.
Thanks - I made a video on Hobart about a year ago after I was fortunate to have a trip down there. I heard mention of the Riverline Project at the time - but not many details. I will look it up. But generally I feel that Light Rail actually probably has more applicability in smaller cities.. where it can run on city streets in the CBD and then on reservations into the suburbs.. Adelaide, Darwin, Newcastle and maybe parts of Perth spring to mind. Places where not quite big enough for Heavy Rail to all suburbs but not big enough to re-build / build a light rail network. Hobart then would be perfect for that sort of operation.
I think with the coogee beach idea, rather then the typical all the way two track layout, could maybe be bettet just having it be single track and then double at the terminus as not long from Randwick plus Randwick is already a major tram destination so theres that
also maybe not having the Coogee and Bondi lines end at the beach but be joined to each other so that people can light rail from oner beach to the other
What's the topography issue with the eastern transit corridor reserved for the Green Square line? I don't think the short L1 trams would be suitable for servicing high density Green Square unless frequency is increased significantly. The L1 can get very crowded at times and even full since it is so short.
Thanks for the question and the good debate. Just after having travelled the suggested corridor from Green Square I couldn't really picture 67 m long trams through the area. There are around 5x 90 degree street turns - and most of the streets are just two traffic lanes and parking either side. And street blocks are not that large there so a tram that long may be crossing multiple intersections at the same time.. There is less of an issue as it gets closer to Central - its more the Waterloo area that I thought wasn't really suited to mega long trams.
I agree, but there is a potential solution to this. The first thing they should do is upgrade the stations on the L1 so they can take 7-car trams. I believe space has been left at some of the stops to enable this. Once this is complete, theoretically they could extend the L1 line to Zetland and run 7-car trams, which would provide some extra capacity.
I actually have the thought that the light rail to Strathfield could go to Homebush, and Parramatta Stage 2 goes to Homebush instead of Lidcombe. So the system can connect there instead.
Great thought. I do find it strange the that STAGE 2 Parramatta line sort of ends in the middle of nowhere in Carter Street Lidcombe and not go to Lidcombe railway.. I believe they considered it but it was too costly to get across Parramatta Road apparently...
If I were to extend the L3 line . I would extend it along via the tram reservation in middle of Anzac Pde as far as Fitzgerald Ave urn left on to Fitzgerald Ave along the the southern nature strip to Maroubra Beach & then left onto Marine Pdeas far the Surf Lifesaving Club.
Hi, thanks for the thought.. i couldn't recall Fitzgerald Ave, so just looked it up. Yes looks like an easier route than the original line that when along Maroubra Road and then down Mons Ave and then onto Marine Parade.. Wouldn't' it be nice to be able to catch a tram to Maroubra Beach.
who ever calls this trams they are wrong they are two major differences Generally, tram systems operate in a mixed traffic environment (road / rail / pedestrian) and are required to operate safely at speeds for which driver braking is acceptable. Light Rail systems are generally segregated. Segregation permits higher operating speeds using signal control and automatic braking systems.
Bondi probably needs both T4 heavy rail extension AND light rail. Most of the traffic there isn't local, so if non locals had a non car way to get there that'd be mint
You can't tell me that losing parking spaces at Coogee beach will make it lose it's vibrancy, a pedestrian mall and interchange would transform a glorified car par to a friendly, inviting hub.
Yeah it would remind me of Glenelg a bit
Hi thanks for watching and for the comment.. appreciate it... and looks like lots agree with you.. I think I phrased it wrongly.. what was in my mind when I said it was when I was there and I was picturing a big concrete light rail station right in the middle of Coogee Bay road outside of the hotel.. I thought maybe would make it all feel a bit less vibrant as you don't have all the bustle of the street today and a big quite soulless 'train station' right in the middle of it all. Maybe best to put that a block back. And perhaps even then make a pedestrian mall from there to Arden Street.
@@backtracks.channelnothing less vibrant than a wall of parked cars
I honestly thought that this was sarcasm
I like that the Elizabeth Street proposal creates a city Circle loop but for trams
Good point.. Thanks. Sydney could have a Melbourne style loop tram.
All Sydney beaches are completely clogged with horrible vehicular traffic. Going to Sydney beaches is actually quite a stressful experience because of all the aggressive and impatient car drivers who are frustrated because they can’t find somewhere to park their 2 tonne metal/plastic box on 4 wheels.
i worked on the light rail and the original plan was from the now terminus at POW hospital it would continue up to bondi junction and meet with the train line. The randwick line was also meant to go to maroubra junction. both were cut due to opposition from residents and cost blowouts.
Thanks for the share - I didn't know that. Very interesting. They do both. somewhat feel 'unfinished'. Can you recall what would have roughly been the route from Randwick to Bondi? Assume go north Avoca Street to Queens Park but there it's not so clear as mostly quiet residential streets directly from there to Bondi Junction.
I think light rail expansion is being extremely overlooked by the government and it’s frustrating
@@SherifRichman The government works on the basis of following the latest shiny object.. at the moment it's metro. What we actually need is a mix of bus, tram, metro and heavy rail (and probably something in between) making maximum use of existing infrastructure.
@@jack2453 The something inbetween is active transport strategy i.e. having basic amenities within walking distance and slightly less basic amenities within cycling distance
@@maxkench6139 Absolutely part of the mix. But the something in between I had in mind was fast frequent metro-like trains on the inner suburban lines.
Its especially worse outside of the sydney-parra network with newcastle's tram being pretty much dead in the water alongside a stain in the fact its built off corruption. Places like Wallsend are growing yet no train line or tram line service connecting
@@ClamTram96 Newcastle is perfect for tram expansion- and the Hunter would be perfect for tram-trains (Inc restoring lines to Cessnock and Belmont.
Sydney had an enormous tram network, one of the largest, if not the largest in the world, in the first half of the last century. Newcastle also had an extensive tram network back then. Now that the government is returning trams to Sydney, it would be logical to be doing the same in Newcastle. Trouble is that Newcastle always misses out as being "regional" when metropolitan planning is done. But it also gets labelled as "metropolitan" when funds are allocated for regional planning. Go figure! So I won't be holding my breath waiting for the government to allocate any meaningful planning resources to Newcastle for a rebuild of that city's tram/light rail network.
Sorry to burst your bubble there a bit mate but it was never even close to the largest networks in the world, Sydney reached nearly 300km for just a few years then fairly quickly dropped back to around 200km and declined steadily from there. Chicago and Los Angeles had over 1000km, Berlin and Moscow had over 500km. Buenos Aires had the largest in the southern hemisphere with over 600km. Indeed Sydney only had more than Melbourne for a few decades, for the final decade of Sydney’s trams it was already significantly below Melbourne's, though indie carry more passengers I believe.
As for Newcastle they have big plans for the broadmeadows revelopment and there are several transit-oriented development precincts too plus high speed rail coming so they will certainly get their turn.
Largest in the commonwealth. There were more bigger networks in typical tram term or if you include trolleys (which are just a hybrid of a tram and train)
@kyletopfer7818 You're dreamin if you think hst is ever comin
@@aidenteszke9000I was on my iPad and got autocorrected. Doesn't change anything else I said, but thanks I guess.
@@murraykitson1436 Without doing a deep-dive on it I can't say for sure, but Wikipedia has the following list of "Largest Tram Systems Ever":
LA 1770km
Chicago 1600km
Paris 1110km
Buenos Aires 875km
St Petersburg 700km
Detroit 640km
Berlin 624km
Moscow 520km
London 523km
San Francisco 489km
Manchester 470km
Rio de Janiero 433km
Washington D.C. 320km
Vienna 318km
Sacramento 295km
Sydney 291km (1930s)
San Diego 266km
Melbourne 259km (current)
Some very interesting proposals. However, the most beneficial ones, in my opinion, are the "L6" Parramatta Road Line from Summer Hill to Green Square and the Eastern Suburbs Line from Central to Bondi.
Other proposals that I'd think would be beneficial would be Light Rail Line extensions from Carlingford to Epping, Juniors Kingsford to La Perouse, Randwick to Coogee and a Light Rail line from Parramatta to Macquarie Centre/University (which is a line that the TH-cam channel Building Beautifully conceived in an attempt to close the public transport gap between Epping/Macquarie Park and Parramtta.)
Thanks. Yes I tend to agree.. the L6 and Bondi line would be the priorities for me. Having said that both extending to Coogee and Maroubra would be relatively easy to build and straightaway add capacity to both L2 and L3.
Like the other idea.. am capturing them for a future video. thanks!
And should have mentioned that Building Beautifully video was a great one on a line to Epping.
Building beautifully (sharath) didn’t conceive that line though, it was in planning documents and alternative strategy proposals.
Conversion of the northwestern Tway into a Tram line that intersects with the metro at mulitiple points. Could allow multiple busses to be turned into a more suburban based services. Hopefully silencing the majority of thre "needs more car park crowd".
Feeder buses to LR, Trains, and Metro to the outer suburbs would silence the car centric crowd.
I have mentioned this previously and suggested the extension of the Parramatta Light Rail from Westmead , along the T-Way , with Metro interchanges at Bella Vista and Rouse Hill .
I'd like to see some options return to the Northern Beaches. A LR line between Palm Beach and Manly Ferry would be amazing
That would be great.. and to think there once was a tram line all the way to Narrabeen. And plans were drawn up for an extension to Church Point..
Even a light rail would be a better compromise than the stupid B Line.
Way too slow, the beaches needs a metro line.
Crows Nest to Balmoral and then across The Spit and all the way to Newport. Or a metro tunnel to the Northern Beaches. The Woy Woy to Palm Beach Ferry is quicker than the M1, so that's an option for commuting from Central Coast as well.
Wouldn't that be good!
Light Rail is absolutely the best transport solution for cities. How stupid the NSW government was in the mid-twentieth century to get rid of them! It's good to seet good to see that a new generation is seriously looking at giving Sydney a tram network again.
1: fix the missing link between Carlingford light rail and Epping heavy rail and Metro.
2: Replace the rapid bus lane between Parramatta on Old Windsor Road and take it to Talloaeong Metro. Either light rail or a second Metro branch line.
Good spot re the the Elizabeth Street link. George street is great - but slow. Any serious expanson of light rail in the east of Sydney needs a faster, higher capacity connection between Central and the Quay. This is the big flaw in the ALTRAC L5 proposal.
It would be lovely to see a Mona Vale to Manly tram line.
Hi Marty, thanks for another great video. The only problem with a new line to Bondi is that the original cutting is no longer available. It is a pity they didn't keep that reservation area. It would be great if all these lines could become a reality. If they decide to run the light rail back to Darling Street Wharf, they may need to get the counterweight back. Bringing light rail along Elizabeth would be excellent and would pass Museum and St James stations, as the trams used to do in the old days. They could also extend the light rail to La Perouse, reusing the reservation there. Incidentally, what about taking back the two road lanes on the east side of the Sydney Harbour Bridge, converting it to light rail, running from North Sydney through to Wynyard station platforms 1 and 2? This should ease road traffic on the Harbour Bridge. At the tunnel end, they only need to turn the Cahill Expressway exit slightly to allow the tram tunnel to be accessed again. Road traffic shouldn't suffer too much, especially when they now have the Harbour Road Tunnel as an alternative way across. Anyway, that is just my idea. Take care and all the very best. Rob in Melbourne Australia.
It would be better for the eastern 2 lanes of the Harbour Briddge to turn straight on to the Cahill Expressway - which will be redundant once the 3rd harbour crossing opens.
if we're dreaming, a rail along the northern beaches replacing the b line service?
Yes, as I live on the Northern Beaches.. I often think of this while sitting on the top deck of a B-Line!
I reckon Penrith CBD deserve Light Rail, it should reduce the reliability use of cars.
Yes be good to do a video on the West. I need to do research on what / if any lines are being proposed out there... otherwise we can just 'make our own suggestions'.. I will put Penrith on list for consideration when I make the video...
It would be amazing to have a line going from the WSU campus to Jamisontown via the hospital, High Street, the station and Panthers stadium
@@blue.square What about Penrith to Blacktown Light Rail it'll be great...areas where there's lack of public transport
Definitely agree with this. The council were actually considering a "light rail" in Penrith years ago which was just an over glorified bus like Brisbane's Metro. Thank god that was scrapped.
But where to though? Liverpool or even Campbelltown would be better choices then Penrith
This just hurts me cus I know none of this is happening
You are probably right.. :) but one can only dream...
I reckon a light rail from Parra to Blacktown would be a great video, this would have a lot of patronage.
A short video on the potential expansion to Newcastle light rail would be great. I think Newcastle in the next few decades is poised for major growth especially with the talk of fast rail to Sydney.
There were a whole bunch of proposals branching out of Parramatta. This includes lines to Castle Hill, Macquarie Park, and Bankstown. Those were rejected leaving the 2 stages of the PLR.
Thanks! Yes need to do some research on that. Sounds interesting to dig into.
This was only based on ALTRAC's document and as they don't run the Parramatta line they didn't have any proposals on that.
Hi would you think it would be feasible to extend light rail from Green Square/Waterloo down Botany Rd all the way to Port Botany possibly linking at La Perouse, or do you think it better served by buses?
Good question. Yes when I last went down that part of Sydney it didn't feel that high density of housing - so I wonder if there would be enough demand for Light Rail and that buses for the timebeing would still be better. The tram used to run down to Port Botany and then for a while also connected from there to La Perouse - so you could get a tram to La Perouse via Botany or via Maroubra.
Lots of proposals for extensions to L3 focus on the old Anzac Pde tramway... this misses the point of the enormous development at Eastgardens. So maybe Bunnerong Rd would be better or extend to Maroubra J and then across to Eastgardens.
Like the idea of going to Eastgardens.. my thought like yours was still go via Maroubra Junction.. could just turn west on Maroubra Road - which is very wide and could take light rail easily... there is not yet the housing density south of Maroubra J to justify going much further south along Anzac Pde in my view...
Why build a light rail rine paralleling the T4 instead of extending the T4 itself to Bondi Beach?
Yes, agree way more effective to extend the heavy rail line than build a tram for people wanting to get to and from Bondi Beach.
But I guess a light rail line also benefits the whole Oxford Street corridor to Bondi Junction as well.
Unfortunately, I don’t expect either to be built so it’s just fun speculation at this stage
My man you should upload a full comprehensive video proposal for Light rail lines in Sydney like what Building Beautifully did with the metro. I would love to see where you think areas of Sydney could do with a light rail line, I would love to watch that, even if it is totally unrealistic and unlikely to happen.
Agree.. making these TH-cam videos is like having your own model trainset.. just its virtual.. and possibly quite a bit less expensive.. albeit the storage of the footage of these video has cost me heaps in additional disk space haha.
I would like to see the old jail light rail from darlinghurst to long Bay jail if you can please
Thanks. Yes that's such an interesting part of our tram history.. I have got some footage of the actual tram and what the jail looks like today.. just on my list to find time to make a video on it.
Would be very interested to see Light Rail proposals for northern Sydney as well as the east and west of the CBD. Along the Pacific Highway through the lower North Shore to Chatswood, Willoughby and maybe beyond to Roseville or further. Even if it's a major hypothetical I'd be keen to hear some ideas how it could all work.
yes there was once such a wonderful North Sydney tram network. But now with new patterns of travel - one would not rebuild it the same as it once was - eg it was first build around servicing ferry wharves.
But lines like North Sydney to Chatswood via Willoughby - still would be useful today.. and certainly along Military Road - and that was a possiblity if they had have built BEACHES LINK road tunnel to Balgowlah. as northern beaches traffic would not then travel along Military / Spit Road anymore.
Thanks for watching! Cheers m
A team connecting Central and Bondi Beach going down Oxford St would be great but after they've added such wide bicycle lanes all along Oxford St I worry that it won't be practical to build light rail down Oxford St as there won't be enough space. At least there should be a tram line from Bondi Junction to Bondi Beach
For a supporter of bikes and trams like me, this is a genuine dilemma. What's the answer? We need cheaper sub-surface metros without gold plated stations.
@@jack2453 maybe Oxford street doesn't need any on street parking at all, making sure to reserve some disability access parking on side street corners
Awesome video thank you mate
Appreciate it. Thanks for watching.
The worst part of ANY engineering to metro/light rail is the amount of time they take to build it ... For 40 years we stopped building transport in Sydney and concentrated on road systems that will NEVER be big enough.... Wish government would just bite the bullet and build it ... 🙏 FAST!!!
By Australian standards, we didn't stop building public transport. We built the eastern suburbs line (1979), extended East Hills to connect with the main south line at Glenfield (1987), L1 in three stages (from 1995), T7 Olympic Park (1998), T8 Airport (2000), Chatswood - Epping, now part of M1 (2009), South West line, now part of T2 and T5 (2012), Epping - Tallawong, now part of M1 (2019), L2 to Randwick (2019), L3 to Juniors Kingsford (2020), M1 Chatswood - Sydenham (2024) and with L4 Westmead - Carlingford opening later in 2024)...plus M2 and M3 metros under construction along with L5 Parramatta River. Not to mention major electrifications to Newcastle (1984) and Kiama/South Coast (2001). Since 1980, Melbourne has only managed two short outer suburban extensions and zero electrifications. Thank god Sydney kept plugging away at growing its rail network. (And interestingly, it's a pretty even split between Labor and Liberal government projects.)
@Robert-um👍👍👍6fr
@@Robert-um6fr I take on your rail line data (btw the T7 line already existed in main to the Homebush abattoirs) .. they can't decide when/how to extend the light rail projects... what happened to the original western distributor road project, 1970's from memory, (meant to go from southern side of harbour bridge to Parramatta Road cutting out looping thru the city & Pyrmont Bridge Road) after the 1st section to China Town it was stopped by the incoming government..(known as the road to nowhere) Then re conceived it in 1985... and what happened to the Warringah Expressway, (only got to Naremburn but was meant to go to Manly via Castle Craig & Seaforth) again it was stopped by an incoming government. I worked the F3 Hornsby bypass that stopped at Pennant Hills Road.. The next stage was to loop and connect to M2 at Browns Waterhole but agin stopped in 1990.. The Badgerys Creek Airport now Western Sydney Airport.. How long was this project delayed..2002-2012 known as the decade of deferal and again untill 2020 when work finally began... The Mono rail was also known as the loop to nowhere ... Finishing the debunked Eastern Suburbs Railway (1947-1952 and restarted 1967-1979) .. .. again highlighting governments that could not continue conceived projects and continue being innovative... NOW they have to tunnel under everything .. My point being we can't commit to building infrastructure for the future with governments that react instead of being proactive
Thanks for the good discussion below.. i am going to guess it is about 10 years from announcement of a project to it being opened? So we should really be looking at what new is being announced now.. There are a lot of metros being built now (and that that is great).. but we'll see what comes from the current government on its 'mode agnostic' view of future rail. While what they decide (or not decide now) may not have much impact today.. it will in 10 years.
Thanks for this great summary of transport history in Sydney.. as a little kid I was at the opening day of the ESR in 1979.. my mum dragged me there - I recall not really being interested before we went, but when there I think something triggered... and possibly led to me making videos on TH-cam today :)
how about a lightrail to the northern beaches as the B-line is at capacity :)
Yes how good would that be.. living this way myself I would fully support.. I think often about how exactly would they build it - as pretty challenging topography to get across Sydney harbour and then middle harbour.. a Metro may be better option... (even Beaches Link would have helped).
I like the idea of a light rail to brookvale and manly however a problem is the bottleneck that is Spit bridge
@@Thatonestrangefella yep, but haven't we talked for 20 years of bloody upgrading that bridge?
a light rail network with its Hub in the North Sydney/Victoria Cross area, extending from Milson's point Ferry Pier and Train station all the way out to northern beaches, because then direct access to the CBD can be reached by Metro and Train rather than needing another crossing, connecting different modes and giving the B line a break. Pls the main roads were all built for it.
@@MichaelTavares I can see merits in your proposal. Thank you
Awesome video!
Glad you enjoyed it
And good to hear from you again. Cheers.
Agree that the Balmain line would be great as a small tram semi-historic line but probably not feasible in the context of 'modern light rail' practice. Another great nostalgic line would be the old tram route through backstreet Paddington (389 bus route)
If it connected the Cruise Ship terminal at White Bay I would love it. However, a ship or two would not justify the cost IMO.
@@kerrymcdonagh1327 Probably agree. But the key point is that we will spend $2-3bn on a metro station at White Bay... we need to think about who is going to catch trains there, and how they're going to get there. I can't really imagine all the Balmain folk walking or cycling from all over the peninsula.
@@jack2453 that was my point as I figured the line would not get the patronage. Sydney Harbour is beautiful but really useless for passenger ship passenger movements (other than Circular Quay).
@@kerrymcdonagh1327 I'm sure it would patronage because the Balmain peninsula is densely populated and the metro at White Bay will be a big draw - but the need for labour-intensive smaller trams would kill it cost wise.
A selection of points:
- A problem with light rail, especially when built on-street, it that its construction is often disruptive to businesses in that location for extended periods, without reimbursement. It will ultimately help most businesses along the route, but for a small business it can be too long to survive.
- Light rail often involves extra costs generated by 'discovering' unanticipated pipelines, gas and electricity lines and communications cables while excavating the surface for tracks. This can be a significant problem in older areas where such infrastructure may even not be on any maps or diagrams. It's less of an issue where an existing right of way can be used, or in 'greenfield' areas.
- So, because of the above (and other reasons), I suggest also give consideration to alternatives to modern low-floor light rail (like L1 to L4) - such as stadtbahn (city trains) and light metro. The Canadian vlogger RM Transit has good clips on both, and describes them far more lucidly than I ever could.
- Hardly anyone seems to have noticed, but Greater Sydney is soon to get its first 'light metro' in the form of the WSI Airport Metro. It will be operating in quite a different environment than the other two metros. It is at the premium end of the concept, using 3 cars expandable to 4, driverless, running at grade / elevated / underground where appropriate, with a high passenger capacity, and the ability to surge to meet sudden demands within minutes. It's well suited for being a major Western N-S transport spine.
- Other examples of light metros are things like the London DLR and Vancouver SkyTrain. At the other end of the scale are the small 'people-movers' such as used to transfer passengers (who have already been security checked) to and from distant terminals at major airports. The Miami Metro is an attempt to apply an elevated people mover system to provide transport within a city (though arguably not as successfully as the Gold Coast G-Link has done using light rail).
- City trains can be used as a cheaper method for moving people mainly along dedicated tracks, but extending to on street running when needed. They sometimes take advantage of existing rights of way, (like up the grassed median or along the verge of existing major roads, or along power or canal easements, etc). They may also run fast on straight stretches, then slow right down to make tight turns or climb overpasses to negotiate 'urban obstacles' judged too expensive to remove. Examples of such systems are Hanover Stadtbahn, and Dallas and Denver airport links.
- Western Sydney has places where light rail might work for local transport, but maybe not just yet. Penrith, Blacktown, Liverpool and Camden/Campbelltown all each have populations just over 200,000, That probably means each of their centres is still below the population density threshold for light rail right now, unless something else is creating demand.
- Penrith, for example, has a set of sports venues, adventure attractions, entertainment / eat streets, shopping centres, rail stations, a major hospital and a university, all within the sort of distance that make sense for light rail. It would also help it further develop both a 'day' and 'night' economy, and make it a 'go to' place to commute to celebrate an event, run a conference, indulge in an afternoon game or adventure, or for an enjoyable evening out. Those attractions plus an ability to trundle easily between all of them, along with a suitable marketable image, could well make Penrith the dominant beneficiary of the close proximity of WSI. Plus Penrith is 'core west', and Westies are really good at making all that sort of stuff happen.
- Not as sure whether the other centres (Blacktown, Liverpool / Fairfield, Camden / Campbelltown) are in quite as potentially good a position. Liverpool is in with a chance, but as a local government area, rather than a city CBD. The Airport and Bradfield are contained within its area. Liverpool will always be a bigger than Bradfield, with more affordable housing for rank and file airport workers, and with the M7 and the Moorebank Logistics Depot in its patch, it might do fine. - St Marys might also do well, say if it positions itself as a 'one short ride', well connected, affordable tourist and business traveller accommodation centre ('Stay in the West, and train it to the rest!).
- I would disagree with using light rail to connect western city centres. They're just a bit too far apart, and LR is just a bit too slow, for that. For example, Penrith and Blacktown share an existing rail corridor, and improving it (e.g. quad the tracks west of St Marys, improve signalling, and run freight traffic on dedicated lines), would probably result in a much better solution. Generally, light rail should be limited to providing a set of trips that you could conceivably walk, but which are made a lot easier by getting the tram.
- I certainly would also advocate more frequent bus services, longer hours of operating, and bus priority / stops to provide a more effective 'last mile' component of public transport; and for longer and lighter routes, such as airport buses between Liverpool et al and WSI.
Hi, thanks for the thought provoking response. Really like your great points. Especially the observation about other transport approaches.. I have been on all the LRTs in Singapore and a few at international airports around the world and the DLR in London.. you are right.. why don't we in Sydney ever consider these options?.. albeit those LRTs in Singapore are pretty unsightly.. but very efficient in feeding into a transport hub.
And of course everything we build in Australia is so over engineered (and so expensive). I still can't believe the 'gauge' of the gantry poles for Sydney's light rail.. and while I love the new metro (and made a few TH-cams on it) did the stations really have to be that big?
And yes how good is RM Transport. Reece is great.
Any thoughts on a future video on the Hobart's riverline light rail project?
Thanks - I made a video on Hobart about a year ago after I was fortunate to have a trip down there. I heard mention of the Riverline Project at the time - but not many details. I will look it up. But generally I feel that Light Rail actually probably has more applicability in smaller cities.. where it can run on city streets in the CBD and then on reservations into the suburbs.. Adelaide, Darwin, Newcastle and maybe parts of Perth spring to mind. Places where not quite big enough for Heavy Rail to all suburbs but not big enough to re-build / build a light rail network. Hobart then would be perfect for that sort of operation.
Great
EP
Thanks for watching. Appreciate it.
I think with the coogee beach idea, rather then the typical all the way two track layout, could maybe be bettet just having it be single track and then double at the terminus as not long from Randwick plus Randwick is already a major tram destination so theres that
Nice one. and certainly would cut the cost of construction.
Could also work on Carlingford-Epping, with a crossover half way. Will take less road space (until they realise the value)
also maybe not having the Coogee and Bondi lines end at the beach but be joined to each other so that people can light rail from oner beach to the other
Crazy thought -have a small fleet of steam trams built for a "high days and holidays" tourist service on the Bondi line.....
How fun would that be.. there are a few original steam motors still running that could be used even..
Last time I was in Syney, there was only 1 line. And now, he put's it on almost every street, lol!
Well mostly on every street 'in the future'.. not quite there yet haha.
I hope these lines get built very soon
We can only dream eh!
What's the topography issue with the eastern transit corridor reserved for the Green Square line?
I don't think the short L1 trams would be suitable for servicing high density Green Square unless frequency is increased significantly. The L1 can get very crowded at times and even full since it is so short.
Thanks for the question and the good debate. Just after having travelled the suggested corridor from Green Square I couldn't really picture 67 m long trams through the area. There are around 5x 90 degree street turns - and most of the streets are just two traffic lanes and parking either side. And street blocks are not that large there so a tram that long may be crossing multiple intersections at the same time.. There is less of an issue as it gets closer to Central - its more the Waterloo area that I thought wasn't really suited to mega long trams.
I agree, but there is a potential solution to this. The first thing they should do is upgrade the stations on the L1 so they can take 7-car trams. I believe space has been left at some of the stops to enable this.
Once this is complete, theoretically they could extend the L1 line to Zetland and run 7-car trams, which would provide some extra capacity.
I actually have the thought that the light rail to Strathfield could go to Homebush, and Parramatta Stage 2 goes to Homebush instead of Lidcombe. So the system can connect there instead.
Great thought. I do find it strange the that STAGE 2 Parramatta line sort of ends in the middle of nowhere in Carter Street Lidcombe and not go to Lidcombe railway.. I believe they considered it but it was too costly to get across Parramatta Road apparently...
@@backtracks.channelContinue on to Lidcombe and on to Bankstown.
If I were to extend the L3 line . I would extend it along via the tram reservation in middle of Anzac Pde as far as Fitzgerald Ave urn left on to Fitzgerald Ave along the the southern nature strip to Maroubra Beach & then left onto Marine Pdeas far the Surf Lifesaving Club.
Hi, thanks for the thought.. i couldn't recall Fitzgerald Ave, so just looked it up. Yes looks like an easier route than the original line that when along Maroubra Road and then down Mons Ave and then onto Marine Parade..
Wouldn't' it be nice to be able to catch a tram to Maroubra Beach.
who ever calls this trams they are wrong they are two major differences Generally, tram systems operate in a mixed traffic environment (road / rail / pedestrian) and are required to operate safely at speeds for which driver braking is acceptable. Light Rail systems are generally segregated. Segregation permits higher operating speeds using signal control and automatic braking systems.
lightrail to manly beach. There is bus car or ferry to manly .
Like that idea!
There are not gonna be any more light rail lines apart from parramatta light rail stage 2 for a long time I’m afraid
You are probably right.. :) but one can only dream...
Extend the T4 train line to Bondi Beach....not light rail down the constantly congested Bondi Road.
Yes shame it didn't happen when it was originally proposed..
Bondi probably needs both T4 heavy rail extension AND light rail. Most of the traffic there isn't local, so if non locals had a non car way to get there that'd be mint
All we have is boring 🚌 diesel and battery life big deal 😢😮😅
When will we get a rail line to Sydney's northern beaches "NEVER" 😡😠🤬thanks Marty.🍺
As a northern beaches resident.. sadly I have to concur.. never is the likely answer...