Ham Radio - Type 43 vs type 2 toroids, comparing 9:1 UNUNs
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 ส.ค. 2019
- Continuing to play with the type 43 cores I obtained. I replace the 9:1 unun in my external antenna box and compare scans between the two core types.
If you like my videos, please subscribe here: th-cam.com/users/loughkb?s...
If you want me to keep making more videos like this, consider becoming my patron at Patreon: / kb9rlw
Discuss this and other videos on Facebook:
/ kb9rlw - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
type 43 core is powdered Ferrite material, a very broadband material. Whereas type 2 is powdered Iron material, not very broadband - and considering how wonkie the swr specs are, it is something i don't think i would ever use on a multi-band HF antenna system! I figured this out by looking at specs, from various manufacturers, but thanks for doing the guinea pig work for me! :) AI6XK
I could never have too many antenna videos, and I suspect most hams and your subscribers are the same. Keep 'em coming Kevin. Good job.
Agreeing here! Please continue
I love these videos. Just the right mount of theory combined with the proven formula of building it and triyng it. Thanks for bringing us along.
We love the antenna videos. Thanks for the information about ununs.
I enjoy your experiments. Always nice to see practical information live like this. Keep it up!
Great information Kevin, Been playing with Unun's myself so this is great.
Wow, what a stark contrast in SWR. Nice video.
Another excellent video. You really are good at making your findings clear and unbiased. W2UW
Thank you for the videos comparing Type 2 to Type 43 toroids, very timely for me as I am making a couple baluns and ununs. I'll be doing some similar testing with my RigExpert :) de VA3NIE
In the VNA app, you can swipe from the top (outside) of the display down. This will give you a read out marker that you can drag around. That way you can get exact read outs of specific points easily.
Thanks Kev, very interesting, best regards Carl.
Kevin: *speaks*
Rain: IM LOUDER THEN YOU
Just got through watching 3:32 min of Dr. Squatch Soap advertisement.... all for you. Worth it?? Yes.
Please do more videos in storms. Its oddly relaxing lol
I would also recommend type 33 ferrite material for the upper frequencies !!! -
Hi Kevin,
Nice video showing the differences between the two core blends. Which terminated folded dipole do you have in mind? WB3BJU
This looks like what I found with my Type 2 ununs (your scans). I settled on type 61 ununs. I have one downstairs now I’m using built with 2 stacked FT240-61 and it works pretty good. I have a bunch of type 43’s lying around, I might give them a chance now too.
Interesting Video!
Thanks a bunch for the testing Kevin on the type 43 core =) Looks like that bag of 10 type 43 cores are going into some QRP 9:1 UN-UN and 4:1 and 1:1 baluns =) Just need some bell wire now =)
Nice job Kevin
Very useful. Thanks !
Hey Kevin,
Thanks for what you do, especially the antenna videos. Anyone can buy a commercial rig (or build a rig) but the antenna is the most important part of the connection.
Why the miniVNA versus other options? Looks quite interesting and may look into getting one.
Dave K8WPE
Nice vid Kevin. Playing with baluns and ununs if fun and interesting. I've been experimenting with HF ununs for 3 months - since breaking my leg in two places and tearing tendons from the bone... whilst installing a low, 130' wire for 80m Sprint nights. Well... the wire works great on 160 as a quarter wave crappy performer with 3 radials, 150' long each, laying on the ground. On the other hand, during the NA QSO Party tonight, I worked half a dozen states on 160 using QRP. Anyways, I found (for me) the perfect unun. I wind 'em with 6 or 7 taps (not 3 turn primaries and not twisting the primary and seconday wires together on autotransformer ununs. Why would one want to increase the capacitive coupling between windings?).. and I have settled on type 43 for all HF. People are crazy about SWR. If your radio will output the power you want then you don't need your tuner. Why add another layer of loss? I'll only use mine with moderate SWR on the higher freq bands.. where my last unun performs worst of course. But with multiple taps, i get this result using the 130' leg breaker:
10m: 16:1 tap, 1.8:1 SWR
12m: 16:1 tap, 1.7:1 SWR
15M: 9:1 tap, 1.1:1 SWR
17m: 9:1 tap, 1.4:1 SWR
20m: 4:1 tap, 1.1:1 SWR
30m: 4:1 tap, 1.4:1 SWR
40m: 16:1 tap, 1.0:1 SWR
80m: 3.5 to 3.8 MHz 16:1 tap, 1.5:1 SWR
80m: 3.8 to 4.0 MHz 9:1 tap, 1.5:1 SWR (altho the 16:1 tap gives an SWR of < 2:1 at 4 MHz and so covers the whole band)
I have 2' of coax connecting my rig to the unun, which is next to my desk. Alligator clip on end of wire. With just a change of taps on the unun i can cover all HF bands. Efficiency? Not bad - the unun will only get luke warm after 10 minutes of rag chewring at 50w (CW) or 100w SSB. At 25w CW key down for 1 minute there is no temp change. I wound the same on an FT240-43 and 100w key down for 1 min only makes the core luke warm. Again.. SWR is meaningless with 2' of coax. lol. So if my rig outputs the power I want (it will output full power up to ~2.0 SWR) then I don't bother with my internal tuner. I only use it on 10 and 12.. even though I don't have to and it's doing nothing for me (other than adding more loss). The lossy baluns and ununs are bad enough.. which is a good case for using 50 ohm resonant antennas. Drives me nuts when people connect a poorly matched unun to a 'half wave end fed wire' using 50' of coax when they just don't need it. They're happy when their rig will 'tune the antenna' and 'get a 1 to 1 match'... while the 50' of coax has an SWR OF 4 or 5 to 1 on it. I guess on 80 that's fine tho. 73 OM
At first you worried me..then you said 6 mtrs which is where I am starting to get into on my new yeasu 857.....so the type 2 will work ok for me... Thank you for the video.
Hey! Do what you like! If the viewers don't like it (probably not many of those) then, tough!:-)
If you force yourself then you may not do as good of a job.
Hey again Kevin. I noticed something with my toroid fun. Using the ununs, I found that on higher freq bands (12, 10, 6, etc), the toroid itself acted as a fair antenna. I looked at it.. and jeez, what you have is a magnetic loop don't you? I've never played with a mag loop but know that you have. I wonder what would happen with a cap across the primary like in your loops, and the secondary high z taps not connected?
Thanks for the video and info! 73
I am HZ1-si (Suhail) from Saudi Arabia
First, thank you so much for this Great channel ..
I heard that some (Core materials) have some advantages over others, Particularly in (Receiving mode) which let your antenna has less noise..
Perhaps That's is why some of the End-Fed producers marketing some of End-Fed antenna as a ((SWL End-Fed antenna only) with limited TX Power capability ..
Hopefully you shed some light on such (the important secret) ..
I say this because I made myself End-Fed Half-Wave antenna, it is very good antenna, I have no big problem in (Transmit Mode) as I can compensate for Far Away DX station with a little push of TX Power ...
However, I am still struggle in Receiving Mode especially with some weak DX signals
..
Besides, I don't have much (Horizontal space) for the "Wonderful Beverage Antenna" ..
By the way ... Generally Speaking ... which is better in (Receiving Mode) .. (9:1 Un-Un*) or (49: 1 EFHW**) ? considering Both Antenna have the same Length @ same Band ..
*considering a proper Ground or Counterpoise applied..
**Considering a proper Line isolation applied..
Please Help ..
Hi, I enjoy all of your videos, would love to see more VNA basic usage
Cheers
Brendan GM0CQV
Mix 43 ferrite is great for broadband HF impedance transformers, but if you're running power they are much less tolerant of overheating. They can be ruined by overheating. The Mix 2 cores are iron powder and can be hit with enough RF to melt that plastic box, but once they cool down they are good to go once more. Iron powder cores are much more thermally stable than ferrite.
Lower permeability core has low inductance and low impedance at lower frequency. It will shunt the primary, especially with only a few turns. I would assume a lot more turns needed to make something like a type 2 or 6 core to work.
Kevin, as 43 material has higher permeability, you can use less turns then you will improve the top end. Try 6 turns and also watch for core temperature on the lower frequencies as they tend to get warm. Same goes for the 50:200... Play with the number of turns to get a flatter overall SWR curve. Less turns= better top end but works warmer on the lower end. 73 DE LU6PSG
It would also be interesting to compare type 2 to type 61 for the higher frequencies. Great video.
The 61's make a far superior unun for HF frequencies !
Yo Kevin:
As usual GREAT video! Wasn't sure this was a new video, but delighted it WAS! Too bad you can't kinda cross breed an unun for broad banddedness to serve both upper & lower frequencies! Great video, pleasant change from the bad news in the media!
73's!,
de seeker/Jeff WA7LFP
"Too bad you can't kinda cross breed an unun for broad banddedness to serve both upper & lower frequencies!" .... bet you can Jeff.. just glue a similar sized 43 and a 2 together and wind the balun on both.
what's a good cheap lightweight rechargeable 12v battery to buy for a portable backpack / manpack system i am building for long term off grid ? will recharge with portable solar. it will have btech 25 amp signal booster and baofeng gt-3tp radio.
Is there a way to test cores? I have some of them and no ideas as to the types. I see a lot of non-descript cores at hamfests and don't buy them for that reason.
Looking at both screen shots of mix Type 2 and mix Type 43, it is obvious to me that the type 43 is notably superior everywhere below 30MHz.
The 1.35:1 SWR at 30MHZ or so, just gets better and better the lower in frequency you go.
Therefore, for 95% of all my HF work I would not use the type 2 at all...
So I ended up winding my 9:1 unun on two stacked FT240-43s just in case +120 watts is a bit too much power.
Hi Kevin, did you think of putting the two materials together? When I need a very wide band material I sometimes stack up two cores of different materials and wind my inductor or transformer on the two together. This way you benefit from the material properties of both. I think in this case it may give you a good low SWR over a wider frequency range. Never tried it for an unun, only for EMI suppresion, but who knows...
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll keep that in mind.
I'm curious as to how you get packages while on the move. My electronics store is Amazon, so I can't see being away from my postbox! 73 K5DVT
Friends, Amazon drop locations, random p.o box, trusted small local stores or if you have an address where you are at.
Good comparison again. If I were you I'd stick with the type 43, or set up two outside boxes, one for each. Best of both worlds that way. Glad you got some rain. If you get more, save on your water and run outside for a natural shower (naked of course). Watch out for the sky-sparks.
Could you use two strapped together? A type 2 and a type 43 and have 1 to 30 MHz coverage that is flatter than each individually?
I am sitting on a T 184-26, I wonder if it would be suitable to make a 9:1 unun for HF. TIA.
Who is a good source for the type 2 cores?
8:00 type 2 is good for tuned inductor i.e. resonant circuits in 0.25-10 MHz but is no go for wideband transformers.
Kevin, is there a core material that would be better in the middle of that range of frequencies?
I wonder how type-6 material would perform. It's rated 3 MHz - 40 MHz. Excellent video. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing it with us, Kevin. 73 de K7RMJ Frank.
Next time, you re-supply... perhaps add a couple of type 61 cores.... while you are experimenting... great time to explore the dut input ( device under test ) on your VNA. It is interesting to see the cost (how much you loss through) of a balun or unun.... great video .... tnx for sharing yor adventures... 73's WB0ZLX
Was about to say the same thing about a type 61, they are pretty good for 9:1's.
does anyone know why 49:1 Unun End fed half wave transformers have a Frequency Coverage: 1.8 to 30 MHz while a 9:1 Unun usually can cover also the 50 mhz (6 meters bands) ?
Is the frequency limitation of a 49:1 purely mechanical or .. ?
can you still operate on 6 meters with a 49:1 ?
for ham operators like myself having to have a separate antenna for 6 meters is not an option. many thanks in advance 73
If you want to go lower on the frequency scale, look into 30 or 31 cores. I’m going to order a couple and do my own research on how they react to 80 meter frequencies. (
KI5IQE
Spooky. As I was watching this it was raining outside. I thought it had gotten real heavy as I was hearing it my headphones.
Hi,
We knows that balun and antenna tuner have similar purpose., to impedance matching the antenna system.
For tuned antenna system, balun or matching transformer is more than enough to get optimal performance, on certain bands.
Antenna tuner ism more flexible for multi-bands operation.
My question is..
If we use antenna tuner, is balun needed ? Example for the folded dipole experiments, do we get better performance just by using antenna tuner?
Thank you.
A balun can bring an extremely mis-matched antenna down to a range where a tuner can handle it in extreme cases.
QSL, and thank you,, for the answer.
It looks like the type will work better for all the HF band, maybe not that good 10 and 6. But should still work 160 to 6 with the IC7300 tuner. Can you tell if the IC7300 tuner brings in 6 meters on the 43 mix.
It depends on the antenna. If the 'raw' SWR is 3:1 or less, the 7300 will handle it.
Nice demonstration, I have also such a minivna pro but can't work anymore with the sofware on my pc and windows 10, I think you use a android system, works well, it seem, have abought a FT240-43 for 80m and a longwire follow the discription in CQQSO 5&6 june pages 17-20, 73 de Patrick
Another question about these is do they react different if wound for a 9:1 UnUN vs a EFHW half wave... the cores for the 9:1 UnUn on the QRPGuys website show the Amidon 'red' type 2 cores but they wind their EFHW cores with type 43 material... I wonder why?
I found that the type 2 cores work pretty well from 20 meters up through 10 meters. The type 43 work better for 160 meters through 20.
Also came to ask this as I’ve been looking at diy transformer and choke builds and comparing what comes in the most popular kits
Hello, iron powder material (e.g. mix #2 in your video) and all low permeability materials are not usable for wide band transformers starting from low frequencies like 1.8 o 3.5 MHz because their permeability is too low so they need too much turns to show enough reactance at those frequencies. "Too much turns" give problems on the other side, at 28 or 50 MHz due stray capacitance among the turns. High permeability helps to reduce the turns number.
You did not test the main feature for your transformers: insertion loss !
Consider that a false low SWR can also occur due to the losses introduced by the transformer itself (I am writing this for other viewers: it is not your case). 73s
It seems that the type 2 would work well for the 11 meter band. Interesting....
You should try the mix 61 cores ! You get much better HF frequency coverage overall!
I thought it would be great to have more antenna videos and then I heard LINUX? Yes please. Antennas and Linux all day. I have a ZFS array and while not on Linux, FreeNAS is in a similar spirit right?
Type 43 cores have good characteristics for the lower frequencies since it produces a lot of inductance for the number of turns you are using. Type 2 iron cores are also good for lower freqs but they don''t produce as much inductance as 43 cores so they aren't good for use as transformers but are very good in HF tuned circuits.
Iron and Ferrite are difficult to use as transformers because even it they produce enough inductance they also introduce large loss resistance. But if you use cores that don't produce low resonance frequencies and low RF loses, you then don't get enough inductance.
These characteristics make it difficult to make high inductance transformers with very low loss resistances. The answer here is to use the 43 cores for low freq HF freqs and type 2 or ft-61 cores for higher HF freqs. In other words use 2 antennas to cover HF.
Another good video.
As a thought, are you planning to work with your DOY 630m x'mtr?
Its not the season for 630m. Too many storms across the continent. Its all static crashes down there.
PVC is inclined to melt at around 27MHZ so enameled copper wire might be better than PVC covered wire.
Kevin, I have been using 43-240 toroids. With 14 gauge magnet wire on 20 and longer. What is the difference if I use 140? They are cheaper, I think. About the same?
If you mean 43-140, the difference is it's smaller. The second number is the size.
I think it must make a huge difference as to how they are used. MFJ has figured out how to use them from 2 to 30 in the intellituner. That said, the chart here www.qrz.lt/ly1gp/amidon.html and that circuit having poor low frequency response you may need to experiment with type 1 .
Thank you. N0QFT
Hi Kevin. I have changed to Linux, but am having major problems, trying to set up WSPR, and FL digi. I am using Ubuntu 18.04, and have also tried Mint 19, but find both not user friendly, what Linux package do you use? Len G8LXI
I run ubuntu MATE myself. I like the MATE desktop.
I think I have videos on setting up both fldigi and wsjtx back in my catalog. Search for each and my call to find them. The usual gotcha I hear about is people not being able to get rig control to work. Often it's caused by their user not being in the dialout group and they don't have access to the serial port or device. In the control panel there's a users and groups section where you can manage groups. You need to be a member of dialout. Once added, you need to log out and back in or restart for the change to take effect.
@@loughkb Hi Kevin, thanks for the reply, I will try and find a distro for mate. Take it easy. Le,. G8LXI
@@loughkb Hi Kevin, I have installed mate and it is great, now looking at your videos to get the apps going. Many thanks, Len G8LXI
Do you have a good place to buy type 43 cores?
There's many listed on Amazon and ebay. Just do a search for the core you're looking for and several vendors will pop up.
What would be interesting is if you did that same experiment, but glued a Type2 on to the Type 43 with a dab of crazy glue, just enough to keep em together for the experiment, then wound the test balun over both of them. My suspicion would be that you would get the best of both cores in 1 package.... I have some 31 material, which apparently favors the lower frequencies even more than the type 43. and some type 2 material but they are slightly different sizes so for me that might not work...can't even get 43 here in Mexico without paying a fortune in shipping.
Richard VA7AA/XE1
I would speculate that it would be a wash. Where one core is better at a certain frequency, the other core may negate the advantage.
@@loughkb .... dunno why Kevin, the permeability characteristics of each core material should stay the same... I suspect you'd get the characteristics of both... the cores themselves don't change, and the flux lines within them should be the same. Where the change comes in is in the ability to properly wind a test balun over the combined cores... and in how you factor those characteristics into the balun winding. Anyhoo, If I can get my sticky hands on sone #43 material down here in la país de las cucarachas, that is the same physical size as the #2 material I'm gonna give it a try using my el-cheapo NanoVNA.. it would be interesting to see what really happens... 73 Richard VA7AA/XE1 Barra de Navidad
If the 9:1 UnUn is good as shown with one, I wonder what 2 cores are like? Some other homebrewed UnUn types are based on the Comet CHA-250 which seems to make do from 40M to 10M. Here is a link to the page in question.
www.g8jnj.net/broadbandhfvertical.htm
Is that nine turns? I thought a 9.1 Unun had eight turns my friend can you verify please
What I find interesting is that people use different materials but with the same windings. From what I have read, type 2 and type 43 materials have different Al numbers which are different amounts of inductance for a turn when winding wire round the toroid. So is the crucial figure the ratio of turns for the transmitter side as opposed to the antenna side of the circuit? If so, what difference does the inductance make, if it is higher for one material than another? I have scavenged some toroids from switch mode power supplies and have found their datasheets, which show an Al number between those of type 2 or type 43 toroids, and which give a working range of frequencies that is OK for HF, so I am assuming that these toroids could be used? Or am I missing something?
Kevin, you really need to be looking at R, not Z when you scan. An antenna that is 50 ohms impedance and is mostly reactive is crap, one that is 50 ohms resistive is great. Is your long wire antenna in the video resonant? If so, a 49:1 transformer is closer to what you want. (edited)
avt Z is not reactance
AVT: Z = Impedance.
@@geokuf9679 Fully aware of that, I said "50 ohms impedance and is mostly reactive"
@@KB4QAA I give up.
I thought perhaps you had melted into a puddle. Dam hot out there! Take care. 👍🏻