Omega Speedmaster VS Seiko 6139 "Pogue" - Which is the Better Space Watch? - Comparison & Review

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ธ.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 112

  • @hermanrivera3721
    @hermanrivera3721 6 ปีที่แล้ว +36

    The honey dialed 6139 was the first watch I ever purchased back in the early 70's. I still wear it and is still very comfortable to this day.

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Love mine... Don’t ever imagine letting it go, easily one of my favorite pieces.

  • @JohnnyParanoid
    @JohnnyParanoid 6 ปีที่แล้ว +31

    I love the Speedy and consider it one of my favorite "legacy" watches, but if I see a person wearing one I THINK they're a watch enthusiast. If I ever see someone wearing a Pogue, I will KNOW they're a watch enthusiast.

  • @drticzon
    @drticzon 2 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    I'm still using my Seiko Pogue. My parents gave it to me as a 8th grade graduation gift in June 1976. It was my everyday watch for about 37 years. Then the last 10 years it sat in the original Seiko box (yes, I kept the box). After about 10 year break, the Seiko is back on my wrist. And yes...it is all still original, and everything still works.

  • @calcramer
    @calcramer 6 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    Seeing as how the Pogue is the single best and most beautiful watch ever manufactured, this isn’t really a contest.

  • @joshuaquintrell6732
    @joshuaquintrell6732 6 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    My father died suddenly in late June last year and I found his 6139 sequestered away in a drawer when sorting through all his stuff.
    It needed a service, new crown and stem and new crystal. I'm surprised he still had it considering as he'd had it in a drawer for the better part of 20 years.
    I wear it fairly often on nice days as I don't want to get it wet so in the winter months, it gets put away unless it's sunny outside.
    However, there are some drawbacks when it comes to repair as seiko used a different chronograph setup which makes that part a little harder to source as the chronograph is started by release of a brake system.
    It is a great watch though with a lot of neat history and I always get compliments when I wear it.

    • @ninobocade8755
      @ninobocade8755 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      How much sir

    • @mikekklau
      @mikekklau 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      You should keep it and pass to your son, never sell it

  • @publiusvelocitor4668
    @publiusvelocitor4668 4 ปีที่แล้ว +8

    I think Omega makes wonderful watches, but for this particular question, I have to say that Omega did the whole thing as a promotion, and have milked it to the point of being annoying since then. They made sure the watch they were promoting would be okay with the demands of the space missions... they vetted the watch. Seiko, on the other hand, had no idea the watch would go to space, and it did fine because they just make a great watch. That's a more organic proof of Seiko quality. Gotta go with Pogue on this one.

  • @tomkhong9828
    @tomkhong9828 6 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    Interesting comparison. Didn’t know about the Seiko 6139, it is so attractive. Moonwatch is a classic, but the Seiko is so rare and it is hard to ignore. Love it. Thanks for bringing them up to show us. 👍🍺🍺

  • @KRW628
    @KRW628 6 ปีที่แล้ว +5

    They selected the Omega for one reason. It survived the 8Gs of the launch/re-entry; and it works in a vacuum at +- 200F. That's good enough for me.

  • @patrickryan6065
    @patrickryan6065 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    From one Patrick to another, who also owns a 6139 Pogue, this was a great review, and very enjoyable to watch and listen to. Nice work!

  • @hichambenmira
    @hichambenmira 6 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Both are amazing but i agree that the Seiko is a better every day watch. Thanks again Patrick 👌😊😊

  • @craig2100
    @craig2100 6 ปีที่แล้ว +13

    What about the Bulova moon watch as an additional composition. Good video.

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Huh 🤔 I have owned one... Pretty dope piece. Bought an according, Velcro “Space Strap” to go with it too.

    • @craig2100
      @craig2100 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@TakeTimewPatrickMarlett i love the seiko...its truly a great piece as well.

    • @jaskey
      @jaskey 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@TakeTimewPatrickMarlett Willing to send you mine, if you are interested in doing a comparison or review.

    • @triples4good
      @triples4good 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      It's a great watch, unfortunately, it was to large for my wrist. I sold it but do miss it.

    • @stellarpod
      @stellarpod 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      I agree, Craig. The Bulova Lunar Pilot is a great alternative, striking a balance that has more aesthetically in common with the Speedmaster, while priced at a very reasonable $350 street price (new). I love mine. BTW - Added a ToxicNato strap to mine to keep the originals pristine. A review of this watch is long overdue, Patrick.
      Steve

  • @neelsengupta662
    @neelsengupta662 6 ปีที่แล้ว +7

    Great comparison!! Love the pogue, and would love to add it to my collection one day

  • @diegoeffio
    @diegoeffio 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I've been really liking your content. Great editing/information/opinion combo. Cheers from Brazil

  • @nottavictim5
    @nottavictim5 5 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    The 6139, for those who have style, is the obvious choice. You will be the only kid on the block with one of those. These remain highly undervalued. Prepare for blastoff!

  • @jaredcampbell
    @jaredcampbell 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Great video, thank you!! I own the speedy and have a few other "space" watches. I will get a pogue someday, it is on my list to pick up, hopefully in 2019.

  • @0017Bulldog
    @0017Bulldog 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Awesome Patrick. I love this kind of review and you did an awesome job as usual.

  • @mt24Carson
    @mt24Carson 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Nice comparison between these watches. I have been researching both and this video is helpful. Thanks from a new subscriber. Cheers

  • @qadrik
    @qadrik 6 ปีที่แล้ว +9

    The Omega is the better “space watch”. The Seiko is a better “everyday watch”. The Seiko is the one I’d buy; and love, for that matter. But the Omega is the one I’d dream of.

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      *Do it.* I definitely recommend hunting down a good example of a 6139. 🤘 Worthy endeavor my friend.

    • @stellarpod
      @stellarpod 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      qadrik: Buy a new Bulova Lunar Pilot and sleep soundly. Best of both worlds IMHO.
      Steve

  • @BernardManansala
    @BernardManansala 6 ปีที่แล้ว +12

    6139 All Day, Everyday

  • @7rslender
    @7rslender 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I adore the Speedy and the Pogue is just as cool as the owner whose name it wears today.
    IMHO it would be great to see a third in that group of space watches: The Fortis B-42 Cosmonout Chronograph.
    Ps. wearing kind of a mashup of the specs of the two today. The Speedy MK 40
    Great video Pat!

  • @Alancclive
    @Alancclive 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Have bought both in my time , the Speedmaster is a true icon that is without doubt, also had the Pogue with the gold dial. I ended up selling both , the speedy because I like wearing all my watches in rotation and like having a date function, sold the Pogue because the gold dial was out of my comfort zone. 12 months ago I bought a blue dial 6139-6002 and absolutely love it , just another option to consider 👍

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      I still have my Pogue, but I may be selling it soon... I find I gravitate towards my 6138 Chronograph far more. I do love the yellow dial though.

  • @erbalumkan369
    @erbalumkan369 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Between Nov 73 & Feb 1974, during Skylab-4 space station mission both William Pogue (Seiko 6139) and Gerald Carr (Movado Datron) wore an automatic chronograph. So the Seiko Pogue and Movado Carr were both the first automatic chronographs to be worn in space. So how about a comparison with the Carr Movado?

  • @floofycatz
    @floofycatz 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Great video recap of two fine watches. Your Pogue is in great condition. The bezel insert is still relatively scratch free and very legible, good find for you. I had the original pogue back in '78. Lost it a year later. Been looking to acquire another for memory sake. Where did you have your Pogue serviced?

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      A local mechanic in NYC. He's a real pro. Best of luck finding a decent example! There are a lot of frankens to look out for, but you likely have an eye for that (having owned one originally).

  • @drwindsurf
    @drwindsurf 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I think both of these watches are awesome and I think having them both in one place is brilliant. Thank you Patrick:)

  • @the_pursuit_for_life
    @the_pursuit_for_life 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    I know im coming late to the party as this is an old video but…I have had both…I still have the Seiko Pogue. The Seiko is a better every day watch. Thanks for the video mate.

  • @triples4good
    @triples4good 6 ปีที่แล้ว +6

    Both great watches. This is a very interesting comparison and I'm surprised nobody has every thought to do it. Brilliant. I would really love to add BOTH to my collection. BTW, let's not forget the G Shock DW5600. It has had quite a few space missions. Is that an NTH you are rockin there?

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      No, not an NTH! It’s my *Monta Oceanking.* Been wearing that piece for nearly three weeks straight, had to switch it up.

  • @khronokraze
    @khronokraze 6 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    I like both, but for the money, even for the nicer examples that cost around $1k or even over, I do like the 6139 and believe it's very unique. They are still a great and cool watch for the $$. There are literally 1000's of Speedmasters examples.. you can pretty much count with both hands the much lesser variety of 6139's which is totally fine that their numbers are much more limited in terms of variety, not necessarily in production.. although I'm sure the speedmasters greatly outnumber 6139's still in production as well. It just makes the 6139's stand that much more apart from the masses in mainstream chronographs. You just will see far examples on the streets than Speedmasters on the wrist.
    In addition, the yellow dial example(s) in particular already stand apart from anything else out there in the vintage AND modern chronograph world.
    However, the serviceability should be noted. Way easier, though not necessarily less expensive, to service speedmasters. Seiko simply doesn't make most, if not all, of the original components of their 6139's. So, barring basic lube, clean and adjust servicing, essentially, you need to find a VERY skilled watchmaker that can fabricate certain parts or cannibalize other 6139's for essential parts that cannot be fabricated or otherwise repaired. Thus, as time rolls on, less 6139's will be available to donate (really sacrifice itself more or less altogether) parts for another more serviceable/repairable one. UNLESS, Seiko would be so good and kind enough as to bring back the 6139 in all its original glory in design and movement. Then, we 6139 enthusiasts could get an extended life and further the ability to enjoy the 6139 line for even longer. But, I feel this HIGHLY unlikely.. though, fingers crossed, I think 2019 is the 60th anniversary of the 6139 Speed-timer.. it would be a great time to reintroduce their iconic chronograph.
    Anyways... I mentioned this before, if I were to get a Speedmaster, it would be a less common one such as the FOIS or even the moon watch or other hallmark space exploration model. It would be something different yet equally as good in its own way.. maybe even better in some cases. Most of the 1000's of examples, the Speedmaster is generally easier to mix and match to pair and dress up than the 6139.
    I did end up with a sweet rarer silver dial 6139 which I thoroughly enjoyed for my own watch collection.
    And, you are correct. Regarding subdial registers, people often mistakenly say tri-compax when they see 3 registers on a chronograph and bi-compax when they see 2 registers on a chronograph. It depends. As I understand it, you do not count the running seconds, only the added complication and registers of the chronograph function, for example. Thus, if a 2 register chronograph has a running seconds in one of them, then it is simply a compax layout. And, if a 3 register chronograph has a running seconds in one of them, it should be called a bi-compax layout. Consequently, if neither 2 or 3 register examples have a running seconds in the registers, then they can be correctly called tri- or bi-compax accordingly. I learned this while researching Universal Geneve vintage chronographs.

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      If they did bring it back, it wouldn't be with the 6139 movement... I'd *like* to see them do even better. A thinner, automatic chronograph. I know they can. Take the hand-winding from the 6138's and place it in a package that looks the part. I'd happily buy a reissued 6139.

    • @khronokraze
      @khronokraze 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@TakeTimewPatrickMarlett I would be good if they made an improved 6139. But, would also be interested. In either adopting another compatible movement or a new one all together that does the same job. But, I definitely do not want a quartz substituted nor bloating the case size. If they can't keep the original spirit and looks, then please don't try. Otherwise, if they can maintain the original 6139 spirit and cool design ( but maybe make it a little thinner as u suggested, although I don't find the 6139 wears tall and actually feels kind of low profile) then make it so! Will see... We can still dream and hope.

  • @kyleleungrulez
    @kyleleungrulez 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Have to say the speedmaster dial is the most iconic chronograph design. Even the Ultraman design one can't f it up.

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Yeah, those Ultra’s look pretty sick... I’d be lying if I said I didn’t want a Speedy Tuesday.

  • @ElijsDima
    @ElijsDima 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    1:24 - ooo, nice cut!

  • @inkitatus1
    @inkitatus1 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Couldn't pick between the two! Both iconic, both beautiful. One day I'll have both. Excellent review/comparison, most enjoyable viewing. Cheers mate 👍👍⌚🚀

  • @Lycosa
    @Lycosa 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Yes, great+amazing value with the Seiko POGUE. Would like one... have to buy it used though and such. I love both of those... don't have either. Would like a Speedy someday, or the pogue

  • @WrongTimeWatch
    @WrongTimeWatch 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I knew you were going to say seiko. But, I say, no way. Speedy all the way for me. I currently own the Bulova Lunar Pilot however.

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว +3

      Hahaha, so it’s *actually* the Bulova for you? Solid 🤘

    • @WrongTimeWatch
      @WrongTimeWatch 6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      @@TakeTimewPatrickMarlett Yea, until I can afford the Soeedmaster.

  • @Bugster987
    @Bugster987 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I’m not interested in purchasing vintage so I have to go Omega. However if there was a reissue it might be difficult to resist the Pogue.

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      Yeah... *Seiko, are you listening?* - folks have wanted a reissue for a while. Hope they don’t mess it up when it comes.

    • @Lee_K_5555
      @Lee_K_5555 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I agree. If Seiko issued a modern variant, I'm certain I would own one, even with a quartz or mechaquartz movement.

    • @liamboncodin1785
      @liamboncodin1785 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Well if they would, let's just hope they wouldnt mess up with the dimensions

  • @galaga8834
    @galaga8834 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    How can you say to go for the Pogue when it is not available new? Only as a vintage. If they reissue it then we can revisit this comparison and compare apples with apples.

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      *Go with the Pogue!* 👌 buy ten examples and you’ll still be under the Omega’s pricing. (Some people collect vintage).

    • @galaga8834
      @galaga8834 6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Take Time, w/Patrick Marlett 10? I don’t think so.

  • @gordonanderson6216
    @gordonanderson6216 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Does an automatic wind watch work properly in space where there is no gravity? Just wondering!

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      In a pressurized cabin, but *in* space... Ask Because Science that one, haha. I’m sure the answer is simple. 🤔

    • @Lee_K_5555
      @Lee_K_5555 6 ปีที่แล้ว +5

      Yes, it does. The reason that NASA chose a hand-winding chronograph in 1964 is because automatic chronographs hadn't been invented yet. Arm motion imparts momentum to the pendulum in an automatic movement and winds the rotor. Many astronauts post-Apollo have worn automatics aboard spacecraft with no ill effects.

  • @james.shafiei
    @james.shafiei 6 ปีที่แล้ว +11

    Dat lip gloss though...

  • @garrettjanssen7683
    @garrettjanssen7683 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    *Sees title*
    Damn it Patrick! Here's my 10 minutes.
    The Pogue version has never really grabbed my attention. But the Seiko 6139-7070 is a tempting proposition. I hear that it's better to leave the chronograph running on the old Seiko automatic chronographs.

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Yes, it is... Both the 6139 and 6138 in particular, because of how the mechanism works, the chrono second is meant to be running with the watch (almost like a seconds hand). There’s a “brake” that stops it and is often times the culprit in these chronos needing repair. I simply use mine as a seconds hand and if I need to time something, reset it and push it to start. Afterwards, it goes back to being a seconds hand.

  • @truxton1000
    @truxton1000 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I have had and still have a few of the Speedmasters, 321’s and later 1861-63’s. Also had some 6139’s and still got one plus some 6138’s. When it comes to “use in space” I still think the Speedmaster has the edge as I suspect it got the edge on the Seiko in terms of build quality. When you look at those tests NASA put those watches through and the Omega was the only one working after all those tests I suspect the Seiko would fall through as it’s more fragile than the Omega.

  • @vegandinner1731
    @vegandinner1731 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I hope Seiko reissue this model at some point. is 2019 the 50th anniversary of the 6139???

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว +2

      45mm in diameter, quartz movement... Let’s wait and see...

    • @rossanthony7573
      @rossanthony7573 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      Take Time, w/Patrick Marlett yup, probably going to use the case from that Seiko 5 that came out a couple years ago... fingers crossed they keep the historical sizing (and actually do it)

  • @lanari10
    @lanari10 5 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    An incredibly well thought and fair review. And I agree with you! I have had both and now only own the Seiko 6139, but the blue variant and not the true pogue like yours.

  • @tods.9947
    @tods.9947 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Iam fortunate to own several restored 6139s and I now have an Omega FOIS variant. For me it’s tough to compare. But I love that I can get restored vintage Seiko chronos for under $1000. No way can I get a Speedy in that range. Between these two I might pick the Speedy for its more modern construction.

  • @jasue2000
    @jasue2000 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Hey Pat, another great video. You know i’v been jonesing for the Speedy so another video on that only fuels the fires.The Seiko is really just terrific too. That said I am a huge lover of Seiko and a HUGE value fro watch guy, what do you think about like the SRQ023 or 025. Those are amazing Chronos that seem like really high value for what you are getting?

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      I think they’re gorgeous and good value for the money, for sure... One of their more unique options. The cost may be hard pill to swallow for some though. However, when Seiko *does it right* it’s very much evident.

  • @sevenrivers
    @sevenrivers 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Went Seiko? I totally didn’t see that coming... lol
    Either way, another good video!

  • @BayuMukti937
    @BayuMukti937 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Do you used lipstick?

  • @j8sdx
    @j8sdx 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Only issue with the 6139 is trying to find one in good condition and fully original

  • @larvancioramos9748
    @larvancioramos9748 6 ปีที่แล้ว +4

    Seiko all the way.

  • @zwalada
    @zwalada 10 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Lagiacrus in the background? Ok i can trust this guy, he clearly has a great taist.

  • @TheFlyrodder68
    @TheFlyrodder68 6 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Just based on the dial color alone, the Speedmaster wins! It is the more versatile watch and certainly more iconic IMHO. Both great watches and love them both!

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I do love ‘em both, for sure. I’ll have to get a Speedy at some point or other.

  • @klaassiersma4892
    @klaassiersma4892 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    The speedy all day, but the Pogue is nice too.

  • @KeljaSamiNation
    @KeljaSamiNation ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Any watch seems to do well in space. 🤷🏻‍♀️

  • @Scotchontherockz
    @Scotchontherockz 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Had speedy before, got true pogue and shturmanskie, only shturmanskie looks like an actual tool watch and something to take on a mission without marketing scam of moonwatch etc.

  • @threehander
    @threehander 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    I’ve owned the 6139 but prefer the Speedmaster by a mile.

  • @giantcogsturn75
    @giantcogsturn75 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    The Seiko is Porn!

  • @herbmerced7780
    @herbmerced7780 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    I love winding my Hamilton Khaki...so the Omega would be my choice...also, I don’t feel comfortable buying vintage...

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  5 ปีที่แล้ว

      How so? Worried about franken’s, presumably(?).

    • @herbmerced7780
      @herbmerced7780 5 ปีที่แล้ว

      I feel that I am not knowledgeable enough...lol

  • @kennethdjones8181
    @kennethdjones8181 6 ปีที่แล้ว

    Nice review. Very informative. Question. What's up with your lips? They shiny!!

    • @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett
      @TakeTimewPatrickMarlett  6 ปีที่แล้ว

      Haha, I know... 😑 I have this lip balm and didn’t realize my studio lights would make them look outrageously “shiny.” What can you do? 🤷‍♂️ Definitely going to hold off on the balm next time.

    • @kennethdjones8181
      @kennethdjones8181 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

      I like that you're a good sport! Last time I mentioned about your over-exaggerated hand gestures & now your shiny lips. You take is in good stride. i love that. Also did some research about you. And based on that, you somewhat of a heavyweight. Movie roles and all! Like a bawse!!

  • @evaninnewport
    @evaninnewport 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    the speedie has always seemed to over-exposed to me. yes it has a legacy, no doubt about it. but everyone has one. they're pretty boring to look at. and omega has devalued the franchise by issuing so many variants. the speedie is the Toyota Camry of chronos, IMO

  • @ElijsDima
    @ElijsDima 6 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Bulova.

  • @omegaknight01
    @omegaknight01 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Bulova lunar Moon watch

  • @ricardodiaz6187
    @ricardodiaz6187 2 ปีที่แล้ว

    Gorgeous watches. That’s not technically the Pogue though….

  • @phmwu7368
    @phmwu7368 4 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    most iconic space watch ? Rolex GMT-master 1675 considered "the pilotwatch" by both Naval aviators and USAF pilots #MoonwatchUniverse

  • @yousefgeorge3060
    @yousefgeorge3060 4 ปีที่แล้ว

    Them moisturised lips tho

  • @seikoskx
    @seikoskx ปีที่แล้ว

    Dat lip gloss lol

  • @kienchew5886
    @kienchew5886 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    You know that the automatic rotor is useless in space right?

  • @mortallious1234
    @mortallious1234 5 ปีที่แล้ว

    That's not a Pogue.