The Problem with Karma | Interview Clip |
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 พ.ย. 2022
- In my recent interview with Vimoh, we discuss how the concept of karma and its implications on caste discrimination is a serious problem in India. And ridiculing the caste system can get atheists into trouble too.
#caste #atheism #karma
Follow Vimoh: @vimoh and @vimohlive
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THE CONCEPT OF KARMA WAS INVENTED BY BRAHMINS TO JUSTIFY THE INJUSTICE PERPETRATED BY THEM. IT'S AN EXTREMELY DANGEROUS IDEA.
Good point raised by Abhijit. Concept of Karma relinquishes the society from its collective responsibility of doing the needful for the underprivileged.
Absolutely! At least, it does have the potential to do this.
Karma system only applies on dalit and adivasi and sudra and women not on Brahmins . Work only and forgot your fruit of hardwork because Brahmins will get your fruit . this is Bhagwat Geeta .
I’m not sure I understand what that means.
We don't talk about caste enough. So much nuance and thought in what he is saying. Where is the full interview?
I’ll be putting up the full interview on my podcast shortly. Subscribe to The Rationable Podcast and it’ll be with you soon.
He is infact exaggerating caste problems. Caste system is a great tool to exploit weakness in the Hindu society and demonize it. There aren't much problems with caste. If there are, they can be very well dealt with. There is reverse casteism too in which Brahmins are demonized. You can see hateful and violent slogans on university campus walls again Brahmins. That's more of a serious problem today.
You don’t see discrimination against lower castes as a problem? And don’t you think a response to that discrimination is justified?
@@rationable I said the problem is exaggerated, I think there is very less discrimination against lower castes. Whatever discrimination is there, it can be dealt with. It's not a big problem but it's used by enemies of Hinduism to weaken it.
There is more important issue of discrimination against upper caste through quota system which no one talks about. Don't you think response to that discrimination is justified?
Plus what do you have to say about Brahmin hatred and Brahmin demonising in Ambedkarites and Dravidianists? You can see hateful and violent slogans on university campus walls again Brahmins.
I see discrimination and hatred as unjustified and horrific in all contexts. However, casteism is still a very big problem in india. It’s a systemic problem. However, the Dalit and untouchable castes are still being discriminated against horribly so I do understand the backlash towards Brahmins. I don’t condone it, but I understand it. And to return to the root of your comment, I don’t think he’s exaggerating caste problems in the least bit.
subscribed buddy, keep up the good work!
Thank you so much!
Metaphorically speaking it is karma siddhant gives you the ability to rise from your ashes.
The same way a person has forgot his nature, can realise it and the person can climb back too.
One should have the attitude of service towards the lives which are in distress. Devoid of judgements and self interest.
Just because it takes away your sympathy, doesn't mean it has to be wrong. Why is your attitude of service so weak? Don't blame the doctrine, ask yourself why you can't serve but judge? It is your ego which judges, not the siddhant asks you to judge.
You’ve certainly used a lot of metaphors there and I’m not sure I understand what you mean. I’d love it if you could join the live stream on Sunday at noon and we could discuss this in more depth.
@@rationableI don't want to sound preaching, pardon me. Honestly read about karma siddhant from an unbiased standpoint first. And try to serve others around. Live streams can wait.
My best wishes.❤
@abhishekmazumdar2072 you weren’t sounding preachy. I just want to understand your viewpoint in more depth. I already try to do as much good as I can. That’s why this channel exists.
Hello! I found your channel thanks to a recommendation from an atheist TH-camr. Happy to find more Indian atheists!!!
Welcome welcome! I’m sure you will.
Yeah more and more atheists in India will spread degeneracy lol like in the West.
@@himanshukhichar4185 what sort of degeneracy?
@@thepurplebox380 The sort of that follows when Charvak like mentality spreads among people, lol. Absolute hedonism, materialism, lust, greed, purposelessness, that sort of, which naturally leads to crimes and misery, the sort of which US is going through.
@@himanshukhichar4185
Are there crimes and misery in India? Is there hedonism, materialism, lust and greed in India?
The answer to both of those questions is yes.
Doesn't seem like religion in India has prevented those things. So maybe try again.
I think the concept of karma is harmful because it leads to the idea that anyone suffering somehow deserves it. I completely agree with you there. We need more empathy, not less. Great video ❤️
Thank you so much!
No it doesn't lead to this idea in itself unless you think of it this way. All the situations that people are in isn't necessarily because of the karma of their past lives, it may well be because of their actions in this life. And sometimes we suffer because of others' actions too. Believing in karma doesn't make one less empathetic, infact it increases morality in society because people will be afraid that they can escape the punishment of human laws but they can't escape God's punishment through karma and reincarnation doctrine.
@@himanshukhichar4185 And about the Holocaust? I heard that the Jews' souls incarnated in order to burn off karma from past life misdeeds. Not to mention this perception of karma/reincarnation is not necessary for a moral society, fear only creates obedience in the weak and base, there are more beautiful ways. Nevermind that karma/reincarnation isn't even presented on pragmatic terms, it's presented as the truth, so it is no longer a matter of what works for people (as karma may not work for a Western Christian audience, or pagans with their own view of reincarnation), but what is true and logically valid.
Besides, what about butterfly effects? What is stopping one from accruing infinite karma, as all future consequences of his actions are endless (until creation is destroyed)? If I give a dollar to a homeless man, he might be robbed tonight and killed in a scuffle. This might result in a riot, resulting in many deaths and imprisonments- and this action of imprisonment and death will affect many children and widows, all my fault. I will have caused them pain for the rest of their lives, and so on, and so forth- endless karma.
@@TheEternalClown Why do you always have to give examples of Jews, Hitler, Nazism to talk about evil or give hypothetical examples? Assuming you are born in a Hindu family, why don't you talk atrocities on our people? Let's talk about Hindus massacred in Islamic invasions or Hindus massacred or living life of humiliation under British rule. Based on your argument, they all deserved this right? No. Then where is the concept of free will? It's true that having accrued good karmas will result in you being born in such an environment and you are most likely to not suffer things like crime caused by other people. But you can't always do anything about actions of other people. They have free will like you do, and they use their free will to cause suffering to others for which they will get punishment. As for you, if you have been killed because of their actions, you will continue in your next life based on karma of your previous lives.
I have friends who believe in Hinduism, Islam, Christianity and also believe in evolution theory
There can only be one true thing here, since science prooves its claim with evidence, it is more likely to be true. When religion gives evidence we'll believe it. Yojr friends if they think like that Then they are either ignorant or dont know any science.
Approximate data*( cuz i dont exactly remember)
Age of universe- 13.8 billion years
Age of earth- 4.6 billion years
Start of simple life- 3 to 4 billion years ago
The great oxygenation event- about 2.2 billion years ago
Multicellular life about- 1 billion years ago
First vertebrates about- 500 million years ago
Reptile and dinosaur development about- 230 million years ago
First mammals- around 230 million years ago
Dinosaur extinction and mammal uprising- about 65 million years ago
Formation of himalyas and merger of indian subcontinent with asia- about 40 million years ago
First records of Home sapiens just about- 0.15million years ago
Now, hard hard it is to know that we have scientifically archaeologically proved facts about these things? An old man did not create the universe, he does not care who you sleep with, what you eat, what you wear because he does not exist! How hard it is to rely on facts instead of bullshit? How hard it is to think logically about life? Honestly, i am sad about how more than half of the earth's population believes things like flying monkeys or jesus waking up from the dead. Its not that hard to understand your surroundings, the universe is "KNOWABLE".
Yes, a lot of religious people do. It’s the ones who attack the science that we are concerned about.
I am sanatani but I also believe in evolution theory because evolution is fact
THE NORMS OF THE UNIVERSE ARE CHAOS, DISORDER & INJUSTICE. ONLY HUMANS ARE TRYING TO ESTABLISH ORDER & JUSTICE IN A TEENY TINY PART OF THE UNIVERSE. CONCEPT OF KARMA SAYS THAT JUSTICE IS THE NORM INSTEAD, WHICH IS A BIG BIG LIE.
I don't believe in God, Karma, Caste, Law of attraction, Astrology and any other bullshit
I’m glad you’re on the side of reason! And I’m even more glad you’re here. 😊 stick around.
Rather talking about religion is bad, I think we all should propagate an alternative as for a lot of people, religion seems to be a way of life, so propagating philosophy of life to everyone in a simplified manner might help a lot of people, a lot of godmen does these and labels it as religions which it is not, and come from great philosophers like Socrates and Plato.
the promotion of secular humanism Ks certainly a good thing, which is what I understand from your comment. But one should also build awareness of the problems with religion. I’m not saying religion is bad. It has some benefits for sure. But there are problems with how many religions promote pseudoscience, aggravate tribalism and communal disharmony, and discourage critical thinking. These two are completely separate activities and are mutually exclusive. We don’t have to do one or the other. Rather, we can and should do both.
@@rationable Problems of pseudoscience and superstition can be dealt by Hindu values themselves. As for communal disharmony, I know where you are coming from. You are a follower of dhimmatva ideology and I am a Hindutva supporter lol.
@@himanshukhichar4185 what is dhimmatva ideology? and how can I be a follower of an ideology when I don't even know what it is?
3:36 show me which scripture says Caste is allocated by birth
Honestly, i don’t know if it’s scripture or not. But it is being practiced in the real world. That’s what most Hindus believe.
@@rationable If i claim myself to be rationale then the first thing i would do is go to the source and find out for myself if there is any scriptural backing? i would look at multiple sources (across political beliefs) then i would find out if there is any difference between the religion and its practitioners and make an informed decision. Look i am not saying atrocities have not happened but one needs to look at it from absolute details and from a contextual point of view before making any conclusions.
Manusmriti
@@electrondynamics9721 yeah read my question again and read the scripture again and come back to me
@@ashwathvinay?
Isn't it .....scripture
Without the concepts of Dharma and Karma, what will exist is 'Matsanaya':- Bigger fish eating smaller fish, like in nature. With atheism, and its sole reliance on your individual jeevatma and verification by your sense organs, you will end up with extreme individualism, with each point of view of each individual demanding laws to be passed for its own benefit. Understanding Dharma and Karma makes us human, and paves the way to sustain human existence, ensuring that our behaviour and actions align with the cosmic order of things. You are just trying to go back to a problematic state from where our ancestors started their journey towards building a Dharmic way of life.
It is not unempathetic to believe in Karmic consequences. It humbles you, and encourages you to consider the current life as a new chance to make things right, which might include helping better the conditions of the unfortunate poor children. Btw, you used that example in a problematically cynical manner, where your underlying assumption hid itself smartly under the garb of concern. I think, that the underlying assumption is 'People (in this case Hindus) generally lack compassion, and consider less fortunate ones victims of their own karma'. How are you inferring this lack of compassion?
On the other hand, if you have a dogmatically rational view (don't call it scientific when you possess the dogma of considering other fields which don't quite deal with tangible evidence because of their nature, as unscientific. For ex: the study of nakshatras and their effects on human life) of things, you will end up seeing sense in matsanaya, and perhaps hold intellectual discussions while drinking whiskey, while the world burns. It would help if you respected the conscious effort made by these humans from more than 21K years ago, to understand life and its purpose through concepts like Dharma and Karma, and regulate their actions according to that understanding.
You have evidently thought this through to a great extent. There’s a lot to unpack, and I could make a whole video on just unpacking your comment. However, I just want to make a couple of small points Judy to clarify my position. Firstly, compassion is important. I don’t think people lack compassion at all. In fact, being a humanist, compassion is very important to being human and a humanist. Secondly, I was just taking the concept of Karma to an end many don’t think about. Having spoken to a number of people about this, it seems to me that the concept of karma, not the people believing in it, is problematic.
Your criticism of karma doctrine is such: It's not morally acceptable to me, hence it's not true. That's not a refutation lol. Do you have any argument against karma? Imagine if I said that I don't like the possibility of non-existence of God, so God must be there.
And btw belief in karma doesn't lead to less empathy. You will feel motivated to help others in their misery coz you will be rewarded for that. But that doesn't mean I am saying we have to be kind to others for our sake. No, because we feel it inside. Believing in karma doesn't make one less empathetic, infact it increases morality in society because people will be afraid that they can escape the punishment of human laws but they can't escape God's punishment through karma and reincarnation doctrine.
You're misrepresenting what I believe and what I said. I never said karma isn't true. I said it was deeply problematic since it justifies the circumstances of people's lives with no evidence or merit. If a person has a good life, he must have done good in his past life, regardless of whether he's not a nice person in this life. And the reverse too: if a person is underprivileged and has a horrible life, they must have done something bad in their past life and therefore are paying for it in this one. The concept of karma needs to be revised. I don't personally claim to know if karma is the way things work or not. Also, karma doesn't need to exist to motivate people to be good. People are evidently operating regardless of karma since we have people doing good and bad deeds all the time, even if they are Hindus who believe in karma.
@@rationable So what's problematic with this idea that those who are suffering are reaping the consequences of their karma in past life, even if they are good in their present life? Actually if there wasn't karma, the suffering would seem more unjust and absurd. With the knowledge of karma, there is at least a meaning to a person's suffering. Actually that should make them more accepting of their suffering, and motivate them to do good so that they don't suffer like this in the next life. You said that karma leads you to believe that you have done better in past life than those who you more privileged than. So what's the problem with that? If it makes you more arrogant and contemptuous of them, then it's going to harm you in this life or next life by the karma principle. It should actually motivate you to utilise what you have been given by God to even become better and help others.
As for your second statement, yes it's true that knowledge of karma is not necessary for people to be good. But it does provide us with a moral system, it provides answers to our questions about why we suffer. Knowledge or belief of karma can enhance the goodness of already good person and can motivate more people to be good.
@@himanshukhichar4185 Seems like you have a very negative view of humanity as a whole. I believe that life isn't fair at times, but we have to do our best as a society to make it better. You're taking a very "ends justifies the means" approach...
Here's a question: Do you think it is more moral to help someone:
1. Because you feel the urge to help someone
OR
2. To avoid a punishment in a future life/afterlife?
@@himanshukhichar4185 The belief in karma seems to me as making people fatalistic, believing that the state of a world filled with suffering is fair, a statement with which I disagree. To cause someone (a future 'ego' completely disconnected from the previous guilty party) to suffer for the suffering they caused just creates positive feedback loops that never resolve. I would rather say that there ought not to be suffering the world, and the circumstances that create this suffering should not have existed (I do not know who created the first negative karma in your system). There does not have to be a victim-blaming explanation in order for there to be meaning in life, nor is it even an efficient system in practice judging by all of the continuous suffering. Never mind that you are not becoming more moral because you desire to, or because of a love for the good inspired in you by the divine, but by your own fear of future suffering (why even fear future karma if your current body and mind- the thing currently feeling fear- will never experience it?)
Anyways, isn't the point having no karma, not creating more karma for yourself?