You also forgot to mention, another advantage to 24V is the ability to use smaller wire/cable which really comes in handy on longer runs. At the price of wire these days, you can save quite a bundle in wire alone depending on how long your cables need to be. Great info though it's a lot to digest all at once. Probably one to watch to 2 or 3 times and/or at least go back and revisit from time to time.
When planning our Motorhome we discussed our needs with a consultant (like you) and his rule of thumb was up to 2000w, 12v, up to 3000w, 24v and above 3000w go 48v, we wanted to run 4000w pretty regularly (coffee machine, air conditioner and induction or air fryer) so went with the newer victron RS 6000 which runs up to 6000VA (5300W). It includes a 450/80 solar MPPT so that’s awesome also. You’re right, different fuses are needed (I’ve used T-Class and MRBF) and DC-DC chargers are interesting. I’ve used Daygreen 12v-56V converters and 25,000km they’ve not skipped a beat and push out 930w whilst driving, plus 900w solar (smaller MH) and we see 30+ Amps driving in the day keeps our 14kw EVE DIY/JK-BMS battery topped up. Everyone is different, ours is a little over the top but I always wanted to know we could be off grid, not drive and have 3 days reserve.
With modern batteries and inverters that are available, there's almost never a reason to run 12v. The person that gave you that information is operating on information that is 2+ years old or was trying to steer certain people to products they have that give them better margin.
First video I've seen you make where I knew 100% of the information given. But I'm an electrician and victron is the best way to go. But if I didn't already know it I would now, because that was a great, easy to understand, informative video as always.
@@ChuckCassadyYT Mine is a system based on Victron components, and the power per $ spent is better for 48V. For example, I have a SmartSolar MPPT 250/100, which is potentially clipping my solar power at peak sun, and the exact same unit will run at 48v and handle double the power, or I could have bought a cheaper MPPT 250/70 and still have plenty of headroom. Similarly, I bought a Multiplus-ii 24/3000/70-50, and then my wife wanted a microwave, so now I have two of them. A single 48/5000/70-95 would have given me all the power I need, for less money then the two 24v boxes. My build is 100% solar electric, with no propane, alternator, or shore power. For a system with propane for cooking or heat, maybe 24v would be fine.
sounds like a good use case for 48v. they all have their place, ive had good luck with 48v systems as well, though overcurrent protecion is more expensive and often harder to find since all the breakers and fuses need to be rated to at least 58V, victron doesnt yet make a 12-48v DC-DC charger but sterling does and i like them reasonably well. i wanted to run all of the solar panels in parallel on this bus (and on my own bus) which meant my battery voltage needed to stay below about 36V i think in a few years there will be enough to make 48V much easier to implement and we may see 24 become less common as 48V appears to be the standard in residential @@missingegg
I went with a 48v system, and then ran three 13.8v buck converters (step downs) to different areas where 12v items are to save on wiring. One is in the main power compartment. This one powers my lights, roof fan, water pump and water heater. The other is near my diesel heater. This one is crucial because they are so finicky on power so that run is less than a foot from the heater to limit voltage drop on start-up. That one also powers the light on my stove and my water pump for drinking water. The third is near my fridge and powers the fridge and compost toilet fan. Doing it this way just made it easier to run wiring because less wire gauge is required AND less voltage drop for the run.
@@JoshJasinski please read it again. And again. And again. Until you understand that I ran 48v wiring to the 12v appliance before a step down TO SAVE ON WIRING.
@@stargirlofantares9053 TOH is still on to the best of my knowledge, but with the departure of Steve Thomas years ago and more recently Norm Abram the show is not the same. Even Rich Trethewey and Tom Silva are stepping back and their sons are stepping in to film some episodes. Roger Cook the landscaper left the show as he was having some medical issues and a new landscaper was hired for the show. I guess I just dislike change.
@@ChuckCassadyYT I did as well, my father and I loved it. Every Saturday evening we watched on Boston's PBS channel WGBH and then we could catch the re-airing Sunday on NH PBS channel 11 out of Durham, NH. Good times
You’re a real treasure, Chuck. All this valuable info on buses and engines and all the systems it takes to keep them going is just amazing. Thank you for sharing.
They aren’t compatible with the new batteries. I’m not usually swapping batteries very much and hopefully any emergency shutdown is handled by the BMS!
You got me thinking about BMS and series application. The BMS consists of individual cell voltage monitors which shunt charge current past that single cell above a voltage threshold. A 12V battery has 4 individual cells in series, a 24V doubles that to 8 cells in series. So two 12V batteries in series are 8 cells in series, like a 24V battery, but in two boxes instead of one. So if there's a failure in one of the BMS cell monitors, there's an advantage to having them distributed across two boxes, which is that replacement of a battery would consist of half as many cells. That should mean less expense and of course producing half as much toxic waste. In theory, it would be possible to replace just the internal BMS, with access to the boards, and individual cells could be replaced too (I've seen those available) but everybody just tosses the battery and replaces it as a unit.
@@ChuckCassadyYT Does that mean you can repair an errant internal BMS? My friend went with EVE LF280K 280Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 prismatic cells for his home system. I believe he went with sixteen for a 48v system if memory serves. I guess they have a single cell monitor in each casing? Next time we talk I'll ask him how it's all working.
Think about the Big Picture, you need a 12VDC system (alternator /batteries) to start and run the engine,,, keep what you have, it comes with the Bus.. don't mess with it.. you need 120VAC,,, shore powered/solar powered/possibly generator powered. So the solar panels, charge controller/batteries/inverter need to be 12VDC or 24VDC or 48VDC. Then you need 5VDC for USB devices, DCvoltages to charge your laptops, DC voltage for interior LED lights/fans/Diesel heater, water pump, hot water heater, cameras, ...wires and outlets where you need them. water and fuel systems.. grey water tank/blackwater tank? Air pressure pump..
That's not bad idea either. Let's face it, there is going to be times where you might go 2, 3 or even more days with very little to no sunlight and I think having DC to DC charger is important. Although, I think I'd just add a secondary 24 volt alternator and it's only purpose would be to charge my 24v system so it would be divorced from my 12v system. People add air pumps, multiple AC compressors and I've seen dual alternators before so I'm certain it can't be all that hard to add a dedicated 24v divorced alternator.
@NomadicHooker idling a diesel engine to charge batteries is just not something I wanna do. Id rather rack up hours on a cheap little generator for sunless days. Driving down the road, sure thing. We’ve done secondary alternators capable of over 6000w of output. Things get very technical at those levels and you need smart regulators with those alternators that talk to the bms of the batteries
@@ChuckCassadyYT I agree running a diesel engine just to charge batteries not something I would do either. Just a question regarding military trucks such as the LMTV M1078 which provide both 12 and 24 volts from the alternator, how easy would it be to wire this up to a 24v battery system?
@@ChuckCassadyYTit's still strange for me to see a comment like this, because up until less than 20 years ago, "idling" a diesel is what you did and why they were used besides having better torque than gasoline engines. I do enjoy the silence and the cleaner smelling air at a truck stop or around trucks and heavy equipment nowadays, but I'm still not used to not idling for long periods of time.
im curious what you're referring to--idling a diesel has always been bad for it if it cant maintain operating temerature. Ive owned a good number of two stroke detroits from the 70s, 80s, and very early 90s and idling those is a surefire way to kill them early--wet stacking and fuel dilution in the oil because the temp never stays up high enough. lots of people still do it, but i never have and never would. id rather just run a $600 generator into the ground @@PWoods-cd6tk
You are the man, Stan... err should I say you are the buck, Chuck! Thanks for the video sir, appreciated the insight as I am about to install a 24v system in my conversion.
Mine is in a barn. I used twenty deep cycle batteries in 24 volts. Works great. If I have a twelve volts load, I can just run it off of ten of the batteries. I'm using 1600 watts of panels and a 600 watts wind generator. I have a thousand amp hours of battery.
Thanks for the info but I don't think I'll be going that route any time soon, I'm all ready set up for 12 volts and don't want to throw away good equipment. But, if I was going to start over 24 volts is the way to go. Keep the good stuff coming.
I ran 2 systems 12 volts for lights and water pumps and 24 volts for the inverter and fridge 48 volts was tempting but the bus system is 24 volts so I can always jump start the engine and put 2,000 watts of solar to charge the start batteries the solar is 440 volts 11 x 190 watt 40 volts at only 4.5 amps very minimal losses to the MMPT charge controller.
2 things. 1. Downside - no alternator charging without either a 24V alternator or a 12->24V DC->DC charge controller which = $$$ 2. You don't need a 24->12V converter if you use multi-volt or 24V accessories. Just about everything is available in 24V versions.
Hey, Chuck, I found a great vid to help those with alternator charging who also want to put their rv on a trickle charger to keep the start battery up during storage/inactivity. The key to this is the EasyAS Alternator sensing relay, that senses when the alternator is running (it really senses the ripple produced uniquely by an alternator). There is a great vid explaining it search youtube for "Save your Starter Battery with the EasyAS Relay"
You didn't mention 48v systems. Do you ever use those? From my research and looking at the specs of batteries you don't get the full rating of the battery if you discharge/use them at high amps. If you're running 120v stuff off of 12v or 24v you're still having to 5x to 10x the amps off the batteries. But at 48v it's only 3x amps or less I guess. Also there's all in one systems that make it even easier to setup. Do you recommend those at all?
The all in one systems have far too high idle consumption currently. 48v can be great-finding appropriate fuses and breakers can be a challenge and the selection of dc-dc chargers is more limited. It can definitely be a good way to go
I use a 24v 3kw AIO system in an off grid bus situation (Australia 240vac) & it works great. I was seriously considering going 48v at the time but went 24v as the bus is already on a 24v system. Higher voltage system = higher efficiency, but one issue you may want to consider if going 48vdc is solar panel voltage from roof area available, as you will need a minimum of 60v+ to charge a 48vdc system & some mppt AIO systems may require a minimum of 120vdc from the panels before they will even start to charge the battery. A PWM AIO system might work above 55v-60v but not as efficient as mppt. Stepping up 12v or 24vdc vehicle charging system to 55v-60vdc for dcdc charging on the go is another area for consideration & could get costly as well. Another benefit of AIO systems is their high current charging ability from mains power along with many other built in features. I like the simplicity of the AIO systems & believe they are a good way to go & can also be a cheapish & simple DIY install for the budget conscious &/or novice, because with less parts there are less potential problems points for installation. While the AIO’s do generally have a higher idle current, I don’t consider this as a real dealbreaker if you have enough re-charging capacity & batteries available, and if ur prepared to pay for a premium system like a Victron Multiplus, I think u will find they have low idle current abilities. Hope this helps.
I built an off road cabin over 20 years ago and put in a Trace 4048 inverter. The only thing 12 V inverters are good for is things that draw a few hundred watts. Anything over that and the internal resistance of the batteries at high current loads isn’t good for the batteries. I worked with inverters and batteries most of my career as telecommunications technician. Most of our battery banks were 48v. I have a separate 12v system for lights, Rv water pump and electronic ignition on Rv water heater.
I would run a 2nd 12v Inverter for the bus side. use that power when you are traveling (hook it into the multiplus) if you wanted more amp draw with ability to charge your batteries. 2-3 days of clouds no sun if you can charge batteries 5x as fast with run time, you should. Also You need active ventilation on the Victron Stuff as they auto dial back charging due to heat (dc to dc mainly).
It's not just the charge controller that is happier with lower amperage, but the rest of the components (Wires, Plugs, Fuses, disconnect) don't require larger components (e.g. 200 amps requires 3/0 cable while 100 amps can get away with 3 gage)
@ChuckCassadyYT I believe that red master battery kill switch is rated for an actual not nominal voltage of 48v and so can't be used with a 48v system which can be as high as 55 volts
My dad is a not retired electrical engineer. When i was a freshman in highschool he would force me to read books about this. Not joking. He would force me to sit at a table and read and current, watts, amps, parallel, series, etc... Pretty much I would just look at words with no idea what they meant. I still dont have any idea what you are talking about. For the hundreds of hours Ibhave studying the subject throughout my life, including watching your videos and others, I am still at a total loss.
My brain is like 🤯 with all the info but I needed it…all I need is to know how many solar panels i should get to have all the electricity that I can so I can run anytime I want in my bus…including a microwave…
Everyone always says you have to make a list of the items you want to run. For instance, how big (wattage) is your microwave? The one I just looked at was 1800 watts.
EE here, but honestly that doesn't matter because this is still confusing lol. I think 48 V systems make the most sense from an energy storage and charging standpoint. If you need 12 V, use a DC/DC buck converter. That said... 12 V batteries are $1000 cheaper for a 20.4 kWh setup. Copper is expensive but not that expensive. Buck converters are $250 from Victron.
Fun thing about voltage drop, which is the basic reason we size wires the way we do. Voltage drop does not depend on voltage, not in the equation, a 2g wire carrying 100A will have .4V drop per 10 feet, whether it is 12V so deliver 11.6V, or 120,000V and still only drop .4V! So doubling the voltage with half the wire size will still cut the line loss in half. This shouldn't be a factor with well designed systems, but for any less well designed systems, or with corrosion or loose connectors, this becomes a huge factor in the system working or not. Thanks for the basic rule of thumb, of 1,200w solar/2kw inverter for the cutoff between 12 and switching to 24v. Theory is great, but what does it all mean for me???
Smaller wire size and less heat. 24v systems are still plentiful with lots of buying options. Smaller wires are easier to route and to work with in general. Cheaper. Components are more able to handle the lower amperages. No power wasted, etc. Still a low enough voltage to not shock you. You could get by with a 12v system, but if you made a pros/cons list it seems 24v would win out.
Line losses (HEATING YOUR WIRES AND MAKING FIRES) is current SQUARED times resistance. Doubling the voltage cuts the amperage in half but cuts the conductor heating by a factor of four. So....... Why not go to 48V?
48v can shock you. Not nearly as many buying choices as the 12v and 24v products. Those would be the main reasons I wouldn't go 48v. But if your system is large enough, and your solar and power requirements are large enough, then 48v becomes more appealing. It's meant more for homes though instead of skoolies.
Hi Chuck! On the DC to DC charger, I noticed that the one coming out is an isolated model and the new one is non-isolated. I believe I know the difference, but it would have been good to see how the wiring compared. Thanks!
Does anyone know of an easy to understand book on beginner’s electronics that includes the how-to’s on bus conversions? All this information in these videos is so valuable, but when it comes at you in pieces, it can be daunting for a beginner. I really want to understand the bus systems from the ground up because invariably there will be issues that arise just when least expected and I want to be able to handle as much as possible.
Chuck your statement that if you have 2 batteries wired in series and one goes down you have only 12v and that is why you do not like them makes no sense, all batteries are wired in series to make higher voltages. What do you think is inside the big 24v server rack batteries, you guessed it 4 - 3.2v individual cells wired in series to make 12v and then the two sets of 4 batteries (8 - 3.2v cells) are wired in series to make 24v. Either way if there is a problem with one of the batteries or one of the cells that make up the battery pack there is not 24v for your inverter.
Chris, I am well aware of how cells are wired to make a pack. Like I said in the video, it is the BMS for each battery that will shut it down if it doesnt like what it sees. The single BMS controlling the entire output of a 12V battery will shut that entire battery down and it will mean that you no longer have anywhere near 24V. This only applies to batteries with a BMS which I think was made quite clear in the video. If you have 2 24V batteries, they still each have a BMS that can shut that battery off, but it one shuts off, you are still at operating voltage. it is a very very very important distinction
Hey chuck, im in the middle of a shuttlebus rebuild and have recently stumbled across your content. I gotta say its the best ive seen so far. Electrical systems have always confused me a little bit, but you broke this down in a way i totally understood, and will be going with a similar 24v setup in my bus. I like how the lifepower batteries sound, and was curious if you think 3 would be overkill? Or 2 batteries would suffice? Im still new to the electrical bits and learning, but know i want 1200+ watts of solar up top, 12-24 dc/dc for alternator charging, and the rest of the system would be 12v i believe? (lights, phones/laptop, tv, backup camera, etc). Not sure what fridge system im looking at yet or what voltage they are
For the Alternator Charger, the old one was 12/12 ISOLATED. The new one is 12/24 NON-ISOLATED. Can you please explain the difference between ISOLATED AND NON-ISOLATED. and why did you you choose non-isolated for the 24v alternator charger?
Does alternator charging work in tandem with solar if you are driving on a sunny day? How's that work? Ok, Ok, I'm going to sign up for a while and support you! Your videos are too awesome (especially being free) not to. Thanks again.
Chuck - Your scheduler isn't working and I'd like to schedule some time with you. I'm designing a 48v system for my RV and I'd like to discuss this with you. Let me know how we can talk. Thanks!
I learned that equation from my college physics class many moons ago. Had a hard time understanding him because he had a super thick Indian accent. I had to read everything on my own to understand the material. Shrug. oh well. Shrug. Why didn't Proffesional Chuck Cassidy teach physics at my college? grrrrr! lol
If you wire the batteries in series to get 24v you skip the need for the step down converter since you have 12v between the joint and the negative terminal of the battery.
I like this. Though seems to me you'd be bypassing the primary shunt and losing monitoring capability. So a second victron shunt would have to be introduced.
A lot of information, very interesting. You are swapping the 12 12 DC to DC charger "isolated" for a 12 24 but "non-isolated", so there is a difference. Why not a 12 24 isolated one?
@@ChuckCassadyYTCan you reword this in dumb people language? Lol We need to buy a DC/DC charger as the last piece of our 24 volt system but I don’t know if I need to buy isolated or non-isolated.
@@TheAtlasBus Basically the need for an isolated one is usually special use cases. Like if you are towing a trailer and the DC to DC charger is in the trailer, so you don't have a good ground connection between the two. Non isolated is usually what you need.
Ok, you convinced me on the 24v battery bank. I already committed to running a 24v system but was going to go with 2 12v 400ah's in series. I don't think you stated when installing the two in this video, that you will have these batteries in parallel, can you confirm? The lifepower are only a couple hundred bucks more than the "cheapest" batteries(with good reveiws that I have used in the past) I was going to buy, so I'm gonna also go with the lifepower. They just look "cooler" and look more professional and commercial so a great selling point if one is going to sell his shuttle bus in the future. Everything's for sale, right? Thanks Chuck!!!
Wish i saw this before ive invested in 12v. Im now going to install 12v components. What can i do? Sell the 12v multiplex. Luckily im only going with 1200 solar array.
@@NomadicHooker It's for my RV swap, not brick and mortar. And yes, I already know. I built my first camper van in 2013. I've been doing this for 10 years. Plus, my education is in electronic engineering.
Safety. 48V systems get into potentially lethal territory. I use a 48V system but for the average person who doesn't know much/anything about electrical a 24V system is just going to be safer.
@@peckerpeter2078 Ohms law argues differently, both the gun and the bullet are needed to kill. The world is generally built around the lowest common denominator, so even if a 48V system is "in-general" safe, a 24V system is greatly safer. If I was building energy storage systems on RV's for the general public it would 24V.
@@peckerpeter2078 You can't have a high current with a low voltage of the resistance is fixed. Ohm's law still applies to your body. If you look closer it is the amount of transferred energy that is the problem. A high-voltage source like a Taser will have a high current output that travels through your body. The voltage is in the thousands of volts and the current will be the same as if you touch a power line of the same voltage. The difference is the voltage and therefore the current drops very quickly in a taser, the energy is what is stored in an inductor or a capacitor. The result is the amount of transferred energy is low, it is around 1 joule per pulse. The quote current you see for Tasers is the average current peak current, the voltage on the other hand is peek voltage, You can have an average current of 2 milliamps even if the pulse current is at 2 amp, if it pulses it is only one 1/1000 of the time. A the same time you can say the average voltage is 1/1000 of the peak voltage. The position of the electrodes is also important because is changes the the resistance of the body. If you look closer it will be the voltage drop over the relevant issue that determines the curet and amount of transferred energy. So the voltage required to damage you will decrease if, for example, the electrodes penetrate your skin. this is because the total resistance drops so a lower electrode voltage can result in the same voltage drops over the same tissue You need a high enough current to the tissue to deliver enough energy. To get that current you need a high enough voltage. There is a reason warning signs are "High voltage" not "high current"
There is one problem using 24 volt batteries unless you have a center tap to get 12 volts. Not all items run on 24 volts. Your inverter will. A refrigerator can if it has the double voltage feature. It would be nice to run on DC only then no energy will be lost on no load conditions. Some things only run on 12 volts. 24 volt appliances cost more money. I would use both 24 volt and two 12 volt batteries so every possible item can be used. 73
@@ChuckCassadyYT no converters allowed. In fact I would like everything on 12 and 24 volts so no inverter would be needed either. I don't like energy wasters. Even at home I use power strips to turn off all transformer power items. When something is off it should be totally off. Oh I would like to see the size of that starter motor's converter that must be one large sucker. There also been an issue with those 49 dollar jeeps from the government they had to be converted to 12 volts to be street legal. Check local laws before converting anything on the vehicle to 24 volts. Don't get me wrong I am going to have 24 volt system but I will have at least two 12 volt batteries along with some 24 volt ones too. My first design was going to use 4 golf cart batteries that were 6 volts each but the price of lithium batteries has come down to make them more affordable. Thanks some of your ideas are good and some won't apply. Thanks 73 PS. The original solar panels at harbor freight are only 12 volt and you cannot series the thin film type. I like those because even on rainy days and cloudy days they will still make power not as much but still some power. Someone showed me that they the panels will produce power with a florescent lamp. Park under a street light and get a charge. Well that's my scoop on this issue. 73
the monocrystaline panels on my bus do excellent in partial sun and shade conditions at a fraction of the cost per watt of the HF panels--im at under $.60 per watt for the units on my bus. my bus chassis is all 12V and isolated from the house system and uses 3x 900CCA group 31 batteries for starting. keep in mind that at 12v, voltage drop is much more severe which is also energy loss. center tapping a 24v bank for 12v is not advised without a balancer of some kind. ive owned several motorcoaches that are all 24v, and there is no issue with the street legality of those, id be curious if there is a citation you can give for that. to me its a balance of cost, efficiency, simplicity, and reliability when on the road, which is what my system on my bus will represent after over a hundred system designs and installs over the years and lessons learned. there certianly are many ways to skin this kitty. thanks for watchin @@ronb6182
@@ChuckCassadyYT I don't think a florescent light would though. That is what made harbor freight panels so popular, is the low light and rainy days ability to make power They do also sell the mono crystalline panels as well. I'm thinking of trying the flexible panels on my SUV which are monocrystalline as well but not harbor freight. I also don't like modified sine wave inverters. I know they work but not for motors and most electronics. That's another issue for another video. 73
Yeah but… What about a 12 volt battery and inverter. At every solar panel. Then you are combining, 120 volts AC. And if one of the many go down. Then no big deal. And you have less line loss running AC. If you need greater current potential on a longer cable requirement. I mean think about this. Old-fashioned car distributor with wires to the spark plugs. But newer cars. Have the coil on plug now. Not distributed from a central rotating mechanical gizmo. But from a very carefully timed computer-based ignition system. And that changes everything! Now you can tell each plug, when, where and how much spark for each cylinder, individually. Instead of daddy's Chevy nova from 1972. With a 454,, V8 Big Block. With Quadra Junk Carburetor. And the best hesitation. Remember hesitation? Remember carburetors? Now only used on marijuana pipes. Who would have thunk it? How's that Rochester Pot? I don't know? We smoked them! I was born the Detroit 68 years ago. 68? The year of hippies and Sgt. Pepper. I'm from 55. RemyRAD
Inverter itself uses some power, some energy gets lost in the conversion and the inverter can also create some noise. That's why you would want to run as many appliances as possible directly on DC, especially lights and refrigerators.
TC and SC were developed by certain races organizations to make it more "inclusive" for sub par riders and drivers under the guise of faster lap times.
Chuck, just received my batteries today and they were crushed. Had to do a claim to start the return process. You stated you order a lot, have you experienced this? Also, what do you do with those cute little terminal wires that come with? Are those just if you are using a server rack?
Sorry to hear that! I’ve never had a single issue with an order from them, either in shipping or in the product itself but shipping companies are not my favorite. Best of luck, hope you don’t need it tho
Hi Chuck great content as usual I can only see one supply house that has the 24v version of the eg4. Can u recommend a supplier ? Would like to shop around for best deal Thank You I’m advance
The incoming panel voltage needs to be above the battery voltage by enough margin for the charge controller to work, id suggest coming in with at least 20% higher voltage than the battery
WELL I'M AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER AND I GOT A SNEAKING SUSPICION THAT THE 24 V IS THE SAME INSIDE AS THE 12 V AS 12 V CIRCUITS CAN DEFINITELY HANDLE HIGHER VOLTAGE AND LOWER CURRENT DAVID ADAM GRENIS MAPLETON AVENUE BOULDER COLORADO USA THERE'S PROBABLY VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE INSIDE THOSE BOXES
I've got a 12V 2000W inverter with a 12V 100 Ah battery for my car camping trailer. The single 100 Ah battery isn't sufficient for powering the inverter - it kicks off when I try to run my electric chainsaw, for example. Given this quite limited expectation, should I just get another 12V 100 Ah battery, and stay at 12V, or go to 24 V and power the inverter via a step down transformer? Or should I just try to sell the 12V components on EBay and go to 24 or 48 V? BTW, I've got about 1000 W of panels (4x200W Renogy panels & 2x100W flexible panels). Or should I just donate the electric chainsaw, and get a battery powered chainsaw? I'm not planning on using the system that much, but I'd like to get to a reasonably workable system for car camping and gathering firewood.
With another 12v 100ah battery you could distribute the amps from the chainsaw between the two. That should work, unless your chainsaw is more than 2000watts, in which case you'd need to look at a 24v system and a 3000w inverter.
@@whatarewedoingouthere The chainsaw runs on a 15 AMP circuit, so it should be good for a 2000 watt inverter given its ability to provide starting amps. The BMS's of two 100ah batteries should be able to provide power for startup and running at 1C discharge rating.
I THINK THE DAKOTA BRAND BATTERIES ARE GOING TO BE THE STRONGEST FOUL WEATHER BATTERYS I DON'T KNOW THAT THEY MAKE RACK MOUNTED DAVID ADAM GRENIS MAPLETON AVENUE BOULDER COLORADO
@@ChuckCassadyYT The construction of the SOK battery server surpasses the other battery server. Many of us are DYI type people loving your experiences that you post. The SOK battery Server are self serviceable. The indivual battery are bound together by steel sleves and not plastic strapping like the other battery brands.
i will look into that. I know the BMS on their non server units was problematic for a while based on what i saw in the groups im in. its nice that there are a lot of options out there@@scottfalcore
You also forgot to mention, another advantage to 24V is the ability to use smaller wire/cable which really comes in handy on longer runs. At the price of wire these days, you can save quite a bundle in wire alone depending on how long your cables need to be. Great info though it's a lot to digest all at once. Probably one to watch to 2 or 3 times and/or at least go back and revisit from time to time.
@ 5:10 minutes in Chuck mentioned: Optimizing conductors for smaller amperage’s.
So true. It’s a lot to digest for a newbee but I keep trying.
He did mention that. You forgot to pay attention.
When planning our Motorhome we discussed our needs with a consultant (like you) and his rule of thumb was up to 2000w, 12v, up to 3000w, 24v and above 3000w go 48v, we wanted to run 4000w pretty regularly (coffee machine, air conditioner and induction or air fryer) so went with the newer victron RS 6000 which runs up to 6000VA (5300W). It includes a 450/80 solar MPPT so that’s awesome also. You’re right, different fuses are needed (I’ve used T-Class and MRBF) and DC-DC chargers are interesting. I’ve used Daygreen 12v-56V converters and 25,000km they’ve not skipped a beat and push out 930w whilst driving, plus 900w solar (smaller MH) and we see 30+ Amps driving in the day keeps our 14kw EVE DIY/JK-BMS battery topped up. Everyone is different, ours is a little over the top but I always wanted to know we could be off grid, not drive and have 3 days reserve.
I am gonna put 4400 watts of solar on my future skoolie. And I want to get 500 Ah of 48V batteries. Yeah I am not gonna be messing around!
Bruce , we say much the same 12v for up to 1.5kw inverters and 24v for 3kw and 48v for up to 6kw
With modern batteries and inverters that are available, there's almost never a reason to run 12v. The person that gave you that information is operating on information that is 2+ years old or was trying to steer certain people to products they have that give them better margin.
I'm running a 12v system at home now, but at nearly 2000 watts of panels, i will soon upgrade to a 48v system. Nice video, greetings from Jamaica.
First video I've seen you make where I knew 100% of the information given. But I'm an electrician and victron is the best way to go. But if I didn't already know it I would now, because that was a great, easy to understand, informative video as always.
thank you! i really appreciate that coming from someone on the job. thanks for watching
How about growatt?
I did my first build out earlier this year, and picked a 24v system. After that experience, I wish I'd actually gone to a 48v system.
Why is that?
@@ChuckCassadyYT Mine is a system based on Victron components, and the power per $ spent is better for 48V. For example, I have a SmartSolar MPPT 250/100, which is potentially clipping my solar power at peak sun, and the exact same unit will run at 48v and handle double the power, or I could have bought a cheaper MPPT 250/70 and still have plenty of headroom. Similarly, I bought a Multiplus-ii 24/3000/70-50, and then my wife wanted a microwave, so now I have two of them. A single 48/5000/70-95 would have given me all the power I need, for less money then the two 24v boxes.
My build is 100% solar electric, with no propane, alternator, or shore power. For a system with propane for cooking or heat, maybe 24v would be fine.
sounds like a good use case for 48v. they all have their place, ive had good luck with 48v systems as well, though overcurrent protecion is more expensive and often harder to find since all the breakers and fuses need to be rated to at least 58V, victron doesnt yet make a 12-48v DC-DC charger but sterling does and i like them reasonably well. i wanted to run all of the solar panels in parallel on this bus (and on my own bus) which meant my battery voltage needed to stay below about 36V i think in a few years there will be enough to make 48V much easier to implement and we may see 24 become less common as 48V appears to be the standard in residential @@missingegg
I just looked the Sterling units up. Very impressive.
At 48V, would the 3,000 be plenty for you? I'm trying to plan out my own system. @@missingegg
I went with a 48v system, and then ran three 13.8v buck converters (step downs) to different areas where 12v items are to save on wiring. One is in the main power compartment. This one powers my lights, roof fan, water pump and water heater. The other is near my diesel heater. This one is crucial because they are so finicky on power so that run is less than a foot from the heater to limit voltage drop on start-up. That one also powers the light on my stove and my water pump for drinking water. The third is near my fridge and powers the fridge and compost toilet fan. Doing it this way just made it easier to run wiring because less wire gauge is required AND less voltage drop for the run.
a 12v item does not save on wiring... it uses more wiring...
@@JoshJasinski seems your didn't read what I said
@@bradenmackey8116 seems you don't know how to type. or you just don't realize that 12v would require higher awg than 48v lol.
@@JoshJasinski please read it again. And again. And again. Until you understand that I ran 48v wiring to the 12v appliance before a step down TO SAVE ON WIRING.
@@bradenmackey8116you can't tell i'm trolling you can't you
I feel like I am watching the This Old 'Mobil' House with Chuck Cassady.
I get it. I think the others are too young. I miss that show. ♥️
i grew up on that show. love it
@@stargirlofantares9053 TOH is still on to the best of my knowledge, but with the departure of Steve Thomas years ago and more recently Norm Abram the show is not the same. Even Rich Trethewey and Tom Silva are stepping back and their sons are stepping in to film some episodes. Roger Cook the landscaper left the show as he was having some medical issues and a new landscaper was hired for the show. I guess I just dislike change.
@@ChuckCassadyYT I did as well, my father and I loved it. Every Saturday evening we watched on Boston's PBS channel WGBH and then we could catch the re-airing Sunday on NH PBS channel 11 out of Durham, NH. Good times
You’re a real treasure, Chuck. All this valuable info on buses and engines and all the systems it takes to keep them going is just amazing. Thank you for sharing.
Your voltage discussion has a lot of potential
That’s what I’m talking about!
I was surprised you REMOVED that Anderson Power Pole battery connector. Those connectors are EXCELLENT and allow for QUICK disconnect if needed.
They aren’t compatible with the new batteries. I’m not usually swapping batteries very much and hopefully any emergency shutdown is handled by the BMS!
Digging the smooth jazz in the background. It def keeps my attention
You got me thinking about BMS and series application. The BMS consists of individual cell voltage monitors which shunt charge current past that single cell above a voltage threshold. A 12V battery has 4 individual cells in series, a 24V doubles that to 8 cells in series. So two 12V batteries in series are 8 cells in series, like a 24V battery, but in two boxes instead of one. So if there's a failure in one of the BMS cell monitors, there's an advantage to having them distributed across two boxes, which is that replacement of a battery would consist of half as many cells. That should mean less expense and of course producing half as much toxic waste. In theory, it would be possible to replace just the internal BMS, with access to the boards, and individual cells could be replaced too (I've seen those available) but everybody just tosses the battery and replaces it as a unit.
These server rack batteries are extremely easy to service
@@ChuckCassadyYT
Does that mean you can repair an errant internal BMS?
My friend went with EVE LF280K 280Ah 3.2V LiFePO4 prismatic cells for his home system. I believe he went with sixteen for a 48v system if memory serves. I guess they have a single cell monitor in each casing? Next time we talk I'll ask him how it's all working.
My eyes kind off glazed over. I can really appreciate why people just hire you! So worth it!!! 🥰
You explain things SO straightforward and thoroughly Chuck. Thank you.
You are very welcome
Just found your video and I appreciate your explanation! But the music in the background is distracting.
Thanks for the thorough explanation Chuck!
Think about the Big Picture, you need a 12VDC system (alternator /batteries) to start and run the engine,,, keep what you have, it comes with the Bus.. don't mess with it.. you need 120VAC,,, shore powered/solar powered/possibly generator powered. So the solar panels, charge controller/batteries/inverter need to be 12VDC or 24VDC or 48VDC. Then you need 5VDC for USB devices, DCvoltages to charge your laptops, DC voltage for interior LED lights/fans/Diesel heater, water pump, hot water heater, cameras, ...wires and outlets where you need them. water and fuel systems.. grey water tank/blackwater tank? Air pressure pump..
On a bus I like to convert the actual bus to 24v. Then the alternator is an easy secondary charger.
That's not bad idea either. Let's face it, there is going to be times where you might go 2, 3 or even more days with very little to no sunlight and I think having DC to DC charger is important. Although, I think I'd just add a secondary 24 volt alternator and it's only purpose would be to charge my 24v system so it would be divorced from my 12v system. People add air pumps, multiple AC compressors and I've seen dual alternators before so I'm certain it can't be all that hard to add a dedicated 24v divorced alternator.
@NomadicHooker idling a diesel engine to charge batteries is just not something I wanna do. Id rather rack up hours on a cheap little generator for sunless days. Driving down the road, sure thing. We’ve done secondary alternators capable of over 6000w of output. Things get very technical at those levels and you need smart regulators with those alternators that talk to the bms of the batteries
@@ChuckCassadyYT I agree running a diesel engine just to charge batteries not something I would do either. Just a question regarding military trucks such as the LMTV M1078 which provide both 12 and 24 volts from the alternator, how easy would it be to wire this up to a 24v battery system?
@@ChuckCassadyYTit's still strange for me to see a comment like this, because up until less than 20 years ago, "idling" a diesel is what you did and why they were used besides having better torque than gasoline engines. I do enjoy the silence and the cleaner smelling air at a truck stop or around trucks and heavy equipment nowadays, but I'm still not used to not idling for long periods of time.
im curious what you're referring to--idling a diesel has always been bad for it if it cant maintain operating temerature. Ive owned a good number of two stroke detroits from the 70s, 80s, and very early 90s and idling those is a surefire way to kill them early--wet stacking and fuel dilution in the oil because the temp never stays up high enough. lots of people still do it, but i never have and never would. id rather just run a $600 generator into the ground @@PWoods-cd6tk
Great detail and solid instruction .When we do our conversion to 24 volts we will be confident in its safe performance.Thank you sir.
Glad it helped!
The thing i like about my 24v system is you can get usb c boards that will do full protocols for charging laptops and plugin in any usb c device
Thanks for taking us to skool! Got the notebook out! Can't thank you enough for sharing all this knowledge!
You are the man, Stan... err should I say you are the buck, Chuck! Thanks for the video sir, appreciated the insight as I am about to install a 24v system in my conversion.
Mine is in a barn. I used twenty deep cycle batteries in 24 volts. Works great. If I have a twelve volts load, I can just run it off of ten of the batteries. I'm using 1600 watts of panels and a 600 watts wind generator. I have a thousand amp hours of battery.
Thanks for the info but I don't think I'll be going that route any time soon, I'm all ready set up for 12 volts and don't want to throw away good equipment. But, if I was going to start over 24 volts is the way to go. Keep the good stuff coming.
I ran 2 systems 12 volts for lights and water pumps and 24 volts for the inverter and fridge 48 volts was tempting but the bus system is 24 volts so I can always jump start the engine and put 2,000 watts of solar to charge the start batteries the solar is 440 volts 11 x 190 watt 40 volts at only 4.5 amps very minimal losses to the MMPT charge controller.
2 things.
1. Downside - no alternator charging without either a 24V alternator or a 12->24V DC->DC charge controller which = $$$
2. You don't need a 24->12V converter if you use multi-volt or 24V accessories. Just about everything is available in 24V versions.
Hey, Chuck, I found a great vid to help those with alternator charging who also want to put their rv on a trickle charger to keep the start battery up during storage/inactivity. The key to this is the EasyAS Alternator sensing relay, that senses when the alternator is running (it really senses the ripple produced uniquely by an alternator). There is a great vid explaining it search youtube for "Save your Starter Battery with the EasyAS Relay"
You didn't mention 48v systems. Do you ever use those? From my research and looking at the specs of batteries you don't get the full rating of the battery if you discharge/use them at high amps. If you're running 120v stuff off of 12v or 24v you're still having to 5x to 10x the amps off the batteries. But at 48v it's only 3x amps or less I guess. Also there's all in one systems that make it even easier to setup. Do you recommend those at all?
The all in one systems have far too high idle consumption currently. 48v can be great-finding appropriate fuses and breakers can be a challenge and the selection of dc-dc chargers is more limited. It can definitely be a good way to go
I use a 24v 3kw AIO system in an off grid bus situation (Australia 240vac) & it works great. I was seriously considering going 48v at the time but went 24v as the bus is already on a 24v system. Higher voltage system = higher efficiency, but one issue you may want to consider if going 48vdc is solar panel voltage from roof area available, as you will need a minimum of 60v+ to charge a 48vdc system & some mppt AIO systems may require a minimum of 120vdc from the panels before they will even start to charge the battery. A PWM AIO system might work above 55v-60v but not as efficient as mppt.
Stepping up 12v or 24vdc vehicle charging system to 55v-60vdc for dcdc charging on the go is another area for consideration & could get costly as well.
Another benefit of AIO systems is their high current charging ability from mains power along with many other built in features.
I like the simplicity of the AIO systems & believe they are a good way to go & can also be a cheapish & simple DIY install for the budget conscious &/or novice, because with less parts there are less potential problems points for installation.
While the AIO’s do generally have a higher idle current, I don’t consider this as a real dealbreaker if you have enough re-charging capacity & batteries available, and if ur prepared to pay for a premium system like a Victron Multiplus, I think u will find they have low idle current abilities. Hope this helps.
@@ChuckCassadyYT we have the 48v UL listed infrastructure for dimming lights, running fans, ceiling fans and we have USBc chargers
I built an off road cabin over 20 years ago and put in a Trace 4048 inverter. The only thing 12 V inverters are good for is things that draw a few hundred watts. Anything over that and the internal resistance of the batteries at high current loads isn’t good for the batteries. I worked with inverters and batteries most of my career as telecommunications technician. Most of our battery banks were 48v. I have a separate 12v system for lights, Rv water pump and electronic ignition on Rv water heater.
I would run a 2nd 12v Inverter for the bus side. use that power when you are traveling (hook it into the multiplus) if you wanted more amp draw with ability to charge your batteries. 2-3 days of clouds no sun if you can charge batteries 5x as fast with run time, you should.
Also You need active ventilation on the Victron Stuff as they auto dial back charging due to heat (dc to dc mainly).
It's not just the charge controller that is happier with lower amperage, but the rest of the components (Wires, Plugs, Fuses, disconnect) don't require larger components (e.g. 200 amps requires 3/0 cable while 100 amps can get away with 3 gage)
Excited the alt charging can still be used.
Great video - is the "input ac" to the inverter from shore power?
Chuck, that bus behind you looks kind of like Alyss's bus, except different color. :)
@ChuckCassadyYT I believe that red master battery kill switch is rated for an actual not nominal voltage of 48v and so can't be used with a 48v system which can be as high as 55 volts
My dad is a not retired electrical engineer. When i was a freshman in highschool he would force me to read books about this. Not joking. He would force me to sit at a table and read and current, watts, amps, parallel, series, etc...
Pretty much I would just look at words with no idea what they meant. I still dont have any idea what you are talking about. For the hundreds of hours Ibhave studying the subject throughout my life, including watching your videos and others, I am still at a total loss.
My brain is like 🤯 with all the info but I needed it…all I need is to know how many solar panels i should get to have all the electricity that I can so I can run anytime I want in my bus…including a microwave…
Everyone always says you have to make a list of the items you want to run. For instance, how big (wattage) is your microwave? The one I just looked at was 1800 watts.
thank you!@@r8edrv4fun65
Here in UK we tend to limit 12v systems to 1.5 Kw inverted and 24v systems to 3 Kw - Anything over 3 Kw tends to be 48v
EE here, but honestly that doesn't matter because this is still confusing lol. I think 48 V systems make the most sense from an energy storage and charging standpoint. If you need 12 V, use a DC/DC buck converter. That said... 12 V batteries are $1000 cheaper for a 20.4 kWh setup. Copper is expensive but not that expensive. Buck converters are $250 from Victron.
We're in a van and my husband chose to put a 24v system in ours.
Great video. Thx so much.
Lol. JUST talked to you about this. This video would have answered all the questions!
Are you running those battery wires to a bus bar and then to Lynx Distributor?
Can you use the step down for a 24 volt inverter to a 12v battery bank? thank you for reply
Fun thing about voltage drop, which is the basic reason we size wires the way we do. Voltage drop does not depend on voltage, not in the equation, a 2g wire carrying 100A will have .4V drop per 10 feet, whether it is 12V so deliver 11.6V, or 120,000V and still only drop .4V! So doubling the voltage with half the wire size will still cut the line loss in half. This shouldn't be a factor with well designed systems, but for any less well designed systems, or with corrosion or loose connectors, this becomes a huge factor in the system working or not.
Thanks for the basic rule of thumb, of 1,200w solar/2kw inverter for the cutoff between 12 and switching to 24v. Theory is great, but what does it all mean for me???
Smaller wire size and less heat. 24v systems are still plentiful with lots of buying options. Smaller wires are easier to route and to work with in general. Cheaper. Components are more able to handle the lower amperages. No power wasted, etc. Still a low enough voltage to not shock you. You could get by with a 12v system, but if you made a pros/cons list it seems 24v would win out.
Line losses (HEATING YOUR WIRES AND MAKING FIRES) is current SQUARED times resistance. Doubling the voltage cuts the amperage in half but cuts the conductor heating by a factor of four. So....... Why not go to 48V?
There are drawbacks to 48v but it can be a good choice.
48v can shock you. Not nearly as many buying choices as the 12v and 24v products. Those would be the main reasons I wouldn't go 48v. But if your system is large enough, and your solar and power requirements are large enough, then 48v becomes more appealing. It's meant more for homes though instead of skoolies.
Hi Chuck! On the DC to DC charger, I noticed that the one coming out is an isolated model and the new one is non-isolated. I believe I know the difference, but it would have been good to see how the wiring compared. Thanks!
Does anyone know of an easy to understand book on beginner’s electronics that includes the how-to’s on bus conversions? All this information in these videos is so valuable, but when it comes at you in pieces, it can be daunting for a beginner. I really want to understand the bus systems from the ground up because invariably there will be issues that arise just when least expected and I want to be able to handle as much as possible.
A lot of RV's run on 24v so, it makes sense to use 24v's.
And you tell us now...after I just finished my electrical system 😅
Chuck your statement that if you have 2 batteries wired in series and one goes down you have only 12v and that is why you do not like them makes no sense, all batteries are wired in series to make higher voltages. What do you think is inside the big 24v server rack batteries, you guessed it 4 - 3.2v individual cells wired in series to make 12v and then the two sets of 4 batteries (8 - 3.2v cells) are wired in series to make 24v. Either way if there is a problem with one of the batteries or one of the cells that make up the battery pack there is not 24v for your inverter.
Chris, I am well aware of how cells are wired to make a pack. Like I said in the video, it is the BMS for each battery that will shut it down if it doesnt like what it sees. The single BMS controlling the entire output of a 12V battery will shut that entire battery down and it will mean that you no longer have anywhere near 24V. This only applies to batteries with a BMS which I think was made quite clear in the video. If you have 2 24V batteries, they still each have a BMS that can shut that battery off, but it one shuts off, you are still at operating voltage. it is a very very very important distinction
Ecoflow power unit 48v, did you look into it?
Hey chuck, im in the middle of a shuttlebus rebuild and have recently stumbled across your content. I gotta say its the best ive seen so far. Electrical systems have always confused me a little bit, but you broke this down in a way i totally understood, and will be going with a similar 24v setup in my bus. I like how the lifepower batteries sound, and was curious if you think 3 would be overkill? Or 2 batteries would suffice? Im still new to the electrical bits and learning, but know i want 1200+ watts of solar up top, 12-24 dc/dc for alternator charging, and the rest of the system would be 12v i believe? (lights, phones/laptop, tv, backup camera, etc). Not sure what fridge system im looking at yet or what voltage they are
Does the EG4 battery have built in heater ?
For the Alternator Charger, the old one was 12/12 ISOLATED. The new one is 12/24 NON-ISOLATED. Can you please explain the difference between ISOLATED AND NON-ISOLATED. and why did you you choose non-isolated for the 24v alternator charger?
Great info, spot on!
Glad you think so!
Ooh, I bumped it up to 420! 😋☮️
You said "amps of power" twice already.
Whoops
@@ChuckCassadyYT
😂☮️
What's the servo gx and data cable do? Thanks again for all your vids! I really need to become a paid subscriber or whatever it's called.
Does alternator charging work in tandem with solar if you are driving on a sunny day? How's that work? Ok, Ok, I'm going to sign up for a while and support you! Your videos are too awesome (especially being free) not to. Thanks again.
super informative dude!
Appreciate it!
Chuck - Your scheduler isn't working and I'd like to schedule some time with you. I'm designing a 48v system for my RV and I'd like to discuss this with you. Let me know how we can talk. Thanks!
I learned that equation from my college physics class many moons ago. Had a hard time understanding him because he had a super thick Indian accent. I had to read everything on my own to understand the material. Shrug. oh well. Shrug. Why didn't Proffesional Chuck Cassidy teach physics at my college? grrrrr! lol
If you wire the batteries in series to get 24v you skip the need for the step down converter since you have 12v between the joint and the negative terminal of the battery.
I like this. Though seems to me you'd be bypassing the primary shunt and losing monitoring capability. So a second victron shunt would have to be introduced.
though, I can't help but think the string would get imbalanced@@wheresbrent
A lot of information, very interesting.
You are swapping the 12 12 DC to DC charger "isolated" for a 12 24 but "non-isolated", so there is a difference. Why not a 12 24 isolated one?
The isolated one was not needed originally as negative was already common between house and chassis systems. Saved a few bucks
@@ChuckCassadyYTCan you reword this in dumb people language? Lol We need to buy a DC/DC charger as the last piece of our 24 volt system but I don’t know if I need to buy isolated or non-isolated.
@@TheAtlasBus Basically the need for an isolated one is usually special use cases. Like if you are towing a trailer and the DC to DC charger is in the trailer, so you don't have a good ground connection between the two. Non isolated is usually what you need.
Really great video, good wording and explanations. Thanks for sharing your experience too!
How much for a roof raise on a 5 window short bus ?
Ok, you convinced me on the 24v battery bank. I already committed to running a 24v system but was going to go with 2 12v 400ah's in series. I don't think you stated when installing the two in this video, that you will have these batteries in parallel, can you confirm? The lifepower are only a couple hundred bucks more than the "cheapest" batteries(with good reveiws that I have used in the past) I was going to buy, so I'm gonna also go with the lifepower. They just look "cooler" and look more professional and commercial so a great selling point if one is going to sell his shuttle bus in the future. Everything's for sale, right? Thanks Chuck!!!
They will be in parallel
He is using 24v batteries, so all batteries must be in parallel for a 24v system.
Wish i saw this before ive invested in 12v. Im now going to install 12v components. What can i do? Sell the 12v multiplex. Luckily im only going with 1200 solar array.
I'm thinking of going 48V
That's a big system and it is common that people with brick and mortar homes do use 48v systems. You can sure make a powerful system with 48v.
@@NomadicHooker
It's for my RV swap, not brick and mortar.
And yes, I already know.
I built my first camper van in 2013. I've been doing this for 10 years.
Plus, my education is in electronic engineering.
@@Istandby666 lets talk about lights, dimmers and fans @ 48v!
Many marine loads are 12-30 Vdc
Twinkle twinkle little star, Power equals I squared R.
12 volt is for mobile use in vehicle only. Sure you can use it for other purposes. But most people know
Other than the alternator, I don't see much value in going to 24V, once you make the decision that 12V doesn't cut it, why not go 48V?
Safety. 48V systems get into potentially lethal territory. I use a 48V system but for the average person who doesn't know much/anything about electrical a 24V system is just going to be safer.
@@motocache6645It’s the amps that are lethal, not the volts. 48v would be ideal if all equipment could be had at reasonable prices.
@@peckerpeter2078 Ohms law argues differently, both the gun and the bullet are needed to kill.
The world is generally built around the lowest common denominator, so even if a 48V system is "in-general" safe, a 24V system is greatly safer. If I was building energy storage systems on RV's for the general public it would 24V.
@@motocache6645 What? Any electrician knows better? Amps are what kill you I know 100% Fact.
@@peckerpeter2078 You can't have a high current with a low voltage of the resistance is fixed. Ohm's law still applies to your body. If you look closer it is the amount of transferred energy that is the problem.
A high-voltage source like a Taser will have a high current output that travels through your body. The voltage is in the thousands of volts and the current will be the same as if you touch a power line of the same voltage. The difference is the voltage and therefore the current drops very quickly in a taser, the energy is what is stored in an inductor or a capacitor.
The result is the amount of transferred energy is low, it is around 1 joule per pulse. The quote current you see for Tasers is the average current peak current, the voltage on the other hand is peek voltage, You can have an average current of 2 milliamps even if the pulse current is at 2 amp, if it pulses it is only one 1/1000 of the time. A the same time you can say the average voltage is 1/1000 of the peak voltage.
The position of the electrodes is also important because is changes the the resistance of the body. If you look closer it will be the voltage drop over the relevant issue that determines the curet and amount of transferred energy. So the voltage required to damage you will decrease if, for example, the electrodes penetrate your skin. this is because the total resistance drops so a lower electrode voltage can result in the same voltage drops over the same tissue
You need a high enough current to the tissue to deliver enough energy. To get that current you need a high enough voltage. There is a reason warning signs are "High voltage" not "high current"
There is one problem using 24 volt batteries unless you have a center tap to get 12 volts. Not all items run on 24 volts. Your inverter will. A refrigerator can if it has the double voltage feature. It would be nice to run on DC only then no energy will be lost on no load conditions. Some things only run on 12 volts. 24 volt appliances cost more money. I would use both 24 volt and two 12 volt batteries so every possible item can be used. 73
Just use a step down converter like I showed repeatedly in the video to make 12v
@@ChuckCassadyYT no converters allowed. In fact I would like everything on 12 and 24 volts so no inverter would be needed either. I don't like energy wasters. Even at home I use power strips to turn off all transformer power items. When something is off it should be totally off. Oh I would like to see the size of that starter motor's converter that must be one large sucker. There also been an issue with those 49 dollar jeeps from the government they had to be converted to 12 volts to be street legal. Check local laws before converting anything on the vehicle to 24 volts. Don't get me wrong I am going to have 24 volt system but I will have at least two 12 volt batteries along with some 24 volt ones too. My first design was going to use 4 golf cart batteries that were 6 volts each but the price of lithium batteries has come down to make them more affordable. Thanks some of your ideas are good and some won't apply. Thanks 73
PS. The original solar panels at harbor freight are only 12 volt and you cannot series the thin film type. I like those because even on rainy days and cloudy days they will still make power not as much but still some power. Someone showed me that they the panels will produce power with a florescent lamp. Park under a street light and get a charge. Well that's my scoop on this issue. 73
the monocrystaline panels on my bus do excellent in partial sun and shade conditions at a fraction of the cost per watt of the HF panels--im at under $.60 per watt for the units on my bus. my bus chassis is all 12V and isolated from the house system and uses 3x 900CCA group 31 batteries for starting. keep in mind that at 12v, voltage drop is much more severe which is also energy loss. center tapping a 24v bank for 12v is not advised without a balancer of some kind. ive owned several motorcoaches that are all 24v, and there is no issue with the street legality of those, id be curious if there is a citation you can give for that. to me its a balance of cost, efficiency, simplicity, and reliability when on the road, which is what my system on my bus will represent after over a hundred system designs and installs over the years and lessons learned. there certianly are many ways to skin this kitty. thanks for watchin
@@ronb6182
@@ChuckCassadyYT I don't think a florescent light would though. That is what made harbor freight panels so popular, is the low light and rainy days ability to make power They do also sell the mono crystalline panels as well. I'm thinking of trying the flexible panels on my SUV which are monocrystalline as well but not harbor freight. I also don't like modified sine wave inverters. I know they work but not for motors and most electronics. That's another issue for another video. 73
Can u help me, I have 5 -12v and a 24v inverter and 2800 solar panels how do I hook up the battiers?
Why not 48v?
Yeah but… What about a 12 volt battery and inverter. At every solar panel. Then you are combining, 120 volts AC. And if one of the many go down. Then no big deal. And you have less line loss running AC. If you need greater current potential on a longer cable requirement. I mean think about this.
Old-fashioned car distributor with wires to the spark plugs. But newer cars. Have the coil on plug now. Not distributed from a central rotating mechanical gizmo. But from a very carefully timed computer-based ignition system. And that changes everything! Now you can tell each plug, when, where and how much spark for each cylinder, individually. Instead of daddy's Chevy nova from 1972. With a 454,, V8 Big Block. With Quadra Junk Carburetor. And the best hesitation. Remember hesitation? Remember carburetors? Now only used on marijuana pipes. Who would have thunk it? How's that Rochester Pot? I don't know? We smoked them!
I was born the Detroit 68 years ago. 68? The year of hippies and Sgt. Pepper. I'm from 55.
RemyRAD
What are the negatives of using all A/C appliances and fixtures? Does running D/C thru the inverter result in a loss? Thanks
Inverter itself uses some power, some energy gets lost in the conversion and the inverter can also create some noise. That's why you would want to run as many appliances as possible directly on DC, especially lights and refrigerators.
About how much would a setup like this run? My 24k budget is hurting after finding out I will be spending 2600$ on just batteries 😭😂
TC and SC were developed by certain races organizations to make it more "inclusive" for sub par riders and drivers under the guise of faster lap times.
Chuck, just received my batteries today and they were crushed. Had to do a claim to start the return process. You stated you order a lot, have you experienced this? Also, what do you do with those cute little terminal wires that come with? Are those just if you are using a server rack?
Sorry to hear that! I’ve never had a single issue with an order from them, either in shipping or in the product itself but shipping companies are not my favorite. Best of luck, hope you don’t need it tho
Hi Chuck great content as usual
I can only see one supply house that has the 24v version of the eg4. Can u recommend a supplier ? Would like to shop around for best deal
Thank You I’m advance
Me too!!!!! Please
The link in my description is the only website that sells them. Direct from signature solar.
I love math!!!
well.. theres 48 v per solar panel.... can i use 48v system? or is it wise to stay with 12v?
The incoming panel voltage needs to be above the battery voltage by enough margin for the charge controller to work, id suggest coming in with at least 20% higher voltage than the battery
You would need a minimum of 2 panels in series @ 48v to charge a 48v system to 56vdc for battery charging.
WELL I'M AN ELECTRICAL ENGINEER AND I GOT A SNEAKING SUSPICION THAT THE 24 V IS THE SAME INSIDE AS THE 12 V AS 12 V CIRCUITS CAN DEFINITELY HANDLE HIGHER VOLTAGE AND LOWER CURRENT
DAVID ADAM GRENIS MAPLETON AVENUE BOULDER COLORADO USA THERE'S PROBABLY VERY LITTLE DIFFERENCE INSIDE THOSE BOXES
AKA Ohm's Law ;)
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Why not use 48volts?
48 is great but also has drawbacks of its own
Better put a fan on that Orion Tr DC-DC charger, it overheats badly.
I haven’t had that in my experience. It runs hot if you’re getting a lot of voltage drop on the way to it
@@ChuckCassadyYT there’s a whole topic on it in the Victron forums and an exchange program.
I've got a 12V 2000W inverter with a 12V 100 Ah battery for my car camping trailer. The single 100 Ah battery isn't sufficient for powering the inverter - it kicks off when I try to run my electric chainsaw, for example. Given this quite limited expectation, should I just get another 12V 100 Ah battery, and stay at 12V, or go to 24 V and power the inverter via a step down transformer? Or should I just try to sell the 12V components on EBay and go to 24 or 48 V? BTW, I've got about 1000 W of panels (4x200W Renogy panels & 2x100W flexible panels). Or should I just donate the electric chainsaw, and get a battery powered chainsaw? I'm not planning on using the system that much, but I'd like to get to a reasonably workable system for car camping and gathering firewood.
Oh, BTW I've got an additional 60 Ah of smaller 12V batteries. All these cells are LiPo4 chemistry.
With another 12v 100ah battery you could distribute the amps from the chainsaw between the two. That should work, unless your chainsaw is more than 2000watts, in which case you'd need to look at a 24v system and a 3000w inverter.
@@whatarewedoingouthere The chainsaw runs on a 15 AMP circuit, so it should be good for a 2000 watt inverter given its ability to provide starting amps. The BMS's of two 100ah batteries should be able to provide power for startup and running at 1C discharge rating.
@@thegoodtom1718 AFAIK, the batteries have a C rating of approximately 1.
Get a battery powered chainsaw. Save the amps for the blender so you can make margaritas. 😂
24 V system is twice as good as a 12 V and a 48 V system is twice as good as 24. I have a 24 V system and wish I had gone to 48.
Why not just go 48v much better than twenty four and twelve and smaller cables
IT'S TOO BAD I CAN'T GET THE 12-VOLT ONE REBUILT INTO 24 VOLT BECAUSE THAT IS LIKE THROWING AWAY A LOT OF MONEY
I THINK THE DAKOTA BRAND BATTERIES ARE GOING TO BE THE STRONGEST FOUL WEATHER BATTERYS I DON'T KNOW THAT THEY MAKE RACK MOUNTED
DAVID ADAM GRENIS MAPLETON AVENUE BOULDER COLORADO
48v are way more popular now.
I missed it?!
Just go to 48v
Not always the best move
😎👍
... sigh, I just upgraded my 12 volt system to lithium.
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48V master race
Depends on a lot of things
SOK server rack batteries are way better than LiFePower batteries.
Let’s hear why
th-cam.com/video/V-l2Hplul3I/w-d-xo.html
@@ChuckCassadyYT
@@ChuckCassadyYT The construction of the SOK battery server surpasses the other battery server. Many of us are DYI type people loving your experiences that you post. The SOK battery Server are self serviceable. The indivual battery are bound together by steel sleves and not plastic strapping like the other battery brands.
i will look into that. I know the BMS on their non server units was problematic for a while based on what i saw in the groups im in. its nice that there are a lot of options out there@@scottfalcore