They Did It. They RUINED Black Templars. How Games Workshop Strip Away Grimdark...
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It is the fate for all culture, all art and all IPs to be rendered down into the same grey goo commercial slop in our culture. A decade from now all we'll have is a Disney marvel wearing the skinsuit made from the violated corpse of 40k.
This is why gate keeping is needed, because gate keeping maintains consistency in lore and the product, the black Templars, who even Alfa busa made insane for TTS, are angry and xenophobic, because that is part of their character, they are the ultimate crusaders of the 40k universe, if someone at GW cared about consistency than just selling models (even though they sold BECAUSE of the grimdark) then we wouldn’t have problems with it
@@Scruffynerfherder10 No I agree with you Gatekeeping is important...it's damned important, but let's not embrace stagnation while we're Gatekeeping and this is 40k there is some out there shit already (Rainbow Warriors/Noise Marines anyone?) so a Primal isn't so far fetched even though they should have embraced the Old Ones more in Lieu of Japanese Mythology but hey what do I know?
Jesus this is so doomer
It is the fate within capitalism
@@LBerti96 Maybe...but I can also tell you the first time I visited a communist country....they had something called "Toilet Paper Day." 😳
I feel like it’s got to be more executive meddling than bad writers. The real problem is guys providing the paychecks thinking they know better than the nerds who make them their cash.
Just wait untill the Black Templars realize how Gilliman was reserected by. - wait for it. - "Alien Sorcery" - Holy Emperor ! ! !
I mean is anyone surprised? The Eldar are superior in every way to the mon-keigh
North, the lexicanum does not do the meeting between Helbrect and Guilliman justice. In fact, it’s actually described pretty poorly.
In Helbrect Knight of the Throne, there is an entire chapter discussing the meeting between the two and although Helbrect does respect Guilliman because he determined that he was the emperors son after meeting him personally, Helbrect was absolutely PISSED that Guilliman calls his honor into question. Helbrect is determined to go after Ghaz and Guilliman tells a story about Sigismund and Dorn to try to convince him. Helbrect is not happy and is ready to fight Guilliman over the questioning of his honor.
He is also absolutely blown away at the mention of the possibility of Guilliman doubting the divinity of himself and Big E.
Further in the book, Helbrect undergoes the Rubicon Primaris at the behest of Guilliman as a gift from the Emperor to wage war. Only then does he understand the possibility of bringing the Primaris marines into the fold.
Look, I’m a BT fan to the death (No compromise. no Chill) and I think the original lore where the Black Templars killed the original Primaris marines and even their guardian Custode is the best. But the Helbrect novel actually handles the Primaris situation pretty well. The whole thing was done with anger and mistrust. Definitely a good read.
Don’t get your lore from the lexicanum
Edit: Helsreach is the best BT and maybe one of the best Space Marine books ever written but for REALLY good animated BT lore, everyone should check out FlashGitz videos on the BT. Funniest shit ever
this makes a bit more sense thanks for the clarification
@@AW-qz4kk no problem. I mean i totally get where North is coming from on the BTs changing at all. But the book really does a good job of showing Helbrect only doing what he does out of bitter spite towards Guilliman.
Also, they definitely don’t just throw the Primaris units into the fray Willy nilly. Helbrect talks about how untrained, naive, and inexperienced they are and there’s a scene in the book where they’re quite literally being trained by elder Sword Brothers. They do basically just what North said to do to fix them minus the trial by combat for acceptance.
I was hesitant to download that Audiobook but genuinely, it is really great. The whole book is about Helbrect going on a very small crusade with a brand new Emperors Champion that we’re both given a vision by the Emperor. Iron Warriors are involved. Really good.
Except that the voice actor made Grimaldus sound like an ancient old man for some reason. I just pretend his voice sounds like that because of all the screaming he did at Helsreach
Thank you for this comment. I am just starting into Templars and the blurb in the codex just seemed so out of character for the most devout of Dorn's sons.
I have some more reading to do.
I actually think the original lore about killing the Primaris and the Custodian is stupid. Don't get me wrong, I like that the BT has no chill, but seriously? They claim to be loyal to the Emperor and then kill a direct representative of the Emperor. Custodians speak with the Emperor's voice as they are his direct representatives and bodyguards. It's actually out of character for them to attack a Custodian given how they view the Emperor.
@@rykoshuxero It would actually be treason. Thtas all. And thats why they rectify that.
I love 40K but the real problem in it is its community who think that being "grimdark" is being stupid and inconsistent. The Black Templars are loyal to a fault to the Emperor, and they would kill a Custodes ? Wut ?
That’s what I liked about Gabriel Seth vs the Primaris. He challenged them and bodied them to prove the point that the primaris were not improvements
The Adeptus Mechanicus making up their own space marines sounds very sketchy to the point of being heretical.
They are improvements though. One blood thirsty chapter master who's basically a Khorne berserker at this point doesn't change that fact...
Seth should’ve been put down along with his chapter along time ago
@@Cyd99 Seth is basically the punisher (or Tom Berringer's character in Platoon) of 40k, a blood thirsty by any mean necessary anti hero, and the fact GW finally made a CM a "rule" hating codex ignoring loyalist was amazing. It was a much needed that not all loyalists are toeing the line "good" boys and there are some who will and can stand up to primarchs and slap the taste out of their mouth without being intended to become chaos is class. Plus the great lure update to the flesh tearers by saying the black rage is essentially a curse sent to the chapter by Khorne for Sanguinius' stand against Horus and getting close to ending the uprising of chaos was genius and making them excommunicardo cos the empire need them to do the dirty work but don't want to embrace their methods makes them even better.
@@Cyd99
They're no worse than any other Blood Angels successor.
They just don't hide what they are.
I mean, the Flesh Tearers were founded by a marine who remembered the days of the Revenant Legion, and Amit also survived the Siege of Terra. Most of their practices draw from the old legion's practices before Sanguinius showed up and tried to pretty up the monsters he got handed and told to boss around, and the rest largely come from the necessities of the Heresy. And in terms of just going full rage mode and plowing through everything in front of them, the Blood Angels are entirely capable of such brutality. I remind you the Death Company is universal to the entire lineage.
The only real difference is the Flesh Tearers skirt a bit closer to the edge of succumbing to it. And they know it, that's why Seth is so reluctant to deploy alongside other Imperial forces.
They're also not even close to the most brutal chapter in the Imperium. The Carcharodons Astra put them to shame, and the Minotaurs could teach them a thing or fifty about war crimes and collateral damage. Plus the Marines Malevolent unfortunately curse the setting with their continued existence. Plus, the Dark Angels are consistently causing FAR more harm to the Imperium and don't even try to prevent it from happening. They just drop in, look for their missing boys, abduct and torture whoever they think they have to, leave without contributing at all to the overall war effort, and only much later send token force as an excuse to send a strike force after their actual target. Absolute bastards.
Also the Mortifactors have a disturbing fascination with bones. It's got nothing to do with combat, they're just... weird. And possibly a bit disturbed.
Oh and let's not forget about the Exorcists literally shoving daemons into their recruits.
"I don´t get the hatred for the Grimdark."
It´s pretty obvious to me. Veterans of the hobby are shown the door by GW like when the Old World exploded and the vintage factions got condescending rules to embarrass anybody playing them. Same happens now with 40K and you don´t need to be a Templar player to be offended. Luckily I haven´t bought any modern SM novels and it seems that was a good idea.
The reason this is being done is simple: they're making it Safe Edge to make it easy to sell to a megacorp for a buyout and sell merchandise at Target and Walmart.
Yeah, can't have stuff like an Inquisitor ordering the virus bombing of an entire world because one farm kid accidentally started talking to a demon. That's gonna turn off modern parents. I think that's what a lot of this comes back to, marketing towards parents
obvs off topic but I just had a fucking deja vu moment, i think we used to be moots on twitter lmao
@@wolfhelm8078 possibly, used the same name and pfp before I was banned.
But- but- but...
With James squating the firstborn models, how will new players build Black Templars armies without buying piles and piles of new primaris plastic?
GW doesn't care about lore. It cares about selling plastic.
Notice I didn't mention the lack of gothic iconopraghy on the new primaris models.
Fire up the 3D printers, boys.
Buys recast firstborn and 3rd party and a 3d printer
@@crystalclearchaos5387Proxies, kit-bashes, 3D-prints, and recasts are The Way.
People seem to forget that Horus Heresy is putting out 20 man boxes of firstborn marines with more on the way
That’s a better plot but it had nothing to do with plot and story. They wanted people to stop using the perfectly good models they had and buy all new replacements. So they made the old ones look bad.
I don't know about you guys, but I just pretend the primaris lore doesn't exist. I still accept that gilliman is back, but the marines dont change. I consider the primaris models to be firstborn
There is no functional difference between the two. The are all SM. In 10k years, they (like all things) adapted to their realities and made new stuff to compete, lest they be wiped out.
Oh absolutely I take it a step further with my head cannon and just keep the setting in the m40.
It’s just a new kind of armor. That makes way more sense IMO.
Primaris are upscaled marines (had to happen) in Mark X power armour. Nothing more nothing less. Terrible lore choice
I feel the same way about the Dark Angels taking the Primaris marines, and had to have the Dark Angels lose a lot of marines to make them accept them. Hell, they should’ve went back to legion numbers and strategy.
I mean, they had most of them tortured and interrogated by their chaplains to see if they’re spies of Guilliman 💀😂
@@nathanaelotero9700 I guess I didn’t hear about that, and it wasn’t in the codex. But, I get the point you’re making. Thanks for the info. Appreciate it.
@@amg5787 ofc. I may be wrong but it’s still interesting to keep the GD of them old firstborn and translate it over to the new Primaris
Imagine how badass it would be if all that was recorded of the meeting was Helbrecht taking one look at Bobby G and saying only 5 words “Get off of my ship” as the black templars and all similar crusade fleets cut off all communication with big Gs imperium
GW wants everyone to now be like Bobby G and the "bouncy blue boys" having their fuzzy ducky adventures, basically killing 40k as we know it.
Ik it’s an imaginary scenario but that’s just dumb 💀 helbrecht seeing the G man is like a Christian seeing Jesus. Ain’t no way he saying anything to upset or disrespect the son of their God, though ofc he was prepared to “fight” him if he decided to dictate the doctrines of the BT. Luckily for both of them, that didn’t happen 😀
This is a rather sad day, 40k watered down to weak mush by the devolved form of Games Workshop. One of the iconic things about 40k was the on-the-nose grimdark vibe, get the soy boys out of gaming! This is awful!
Always remember the lore is a commercial. GW want to replace the old marines with al primaris now so in the lore they have to normalize the primaris.
They dont have to normalize it. Everyone loves the new minis because they look so much better. I havent seen an old tactical marine in month
You think the Black Templars are ruined just now? The Ultramarine's Primarch knelt to a group of space furries... Like why?.. Because he wanted their help and not anger them?
Rubbish. This is the wrong writters being asigned to characters/factions/setting they can't imagine nor have any care for, all in all, the Lore of 40000 is dying. Its a joke.
It made me quit the Hobby all together, I've heard it so many times "Oh you collect Ultramarines.. How boring and stupid"... Its even worse when you look at the crusades and how it all began through the Dawn of Fire crap and the return of Roboute Guilliman was made into another saturday cartoon for all to see.
Some people should not write the stories because they have bias views.
The fact that my second faction like the Eldar is left in the dark for so long is beyond me, this is just disgraceful and I've seen better writting coming out of so called "game journalists".
I'm at 13 armies and I still look at the few remaining and have the urge to get them
Ugh…the struggle is real. I like them all. Kudos to you for actually being able to collect AND paint said armies. Hopefully your pile of shame isn’t as large as mine 🤦🏻
It's the Hobby version of owning cats.... for some one isn't enough...I can relate.
Same, someone I thought was a friend just offered me two eldar combat patrols for $200 and I couldn't resist. Guess I've got an eldar army to build now.
this honestly makes me think that the reason gw really went after so many independent creators a few years ago is that they were beginning to scrub out the memory of any old, grimdark lore of any shape, even unofficial stuff...
as well as money, of course, bc gw gotta gw
As far as I’m concerned primaris are true scale marines and the new units are combinations of old concepts, like putting lots of grav engines on a land raider or rhino
Part of me wants to believe this was GW intentions but they’ve just failed spectacularly
This is the same reason why no characters die, because GW have to make sure that 1, the models exist, and 2, so they can keep pushing the primaris marines
Yarik would like to say otherwise
@@crystalclearchaos5387fair, but how long will it take for them to come up with some warp bullfuckery to retcon his death and bring out a new model
@@crystalclearchaos5387 Literally yarrick, creed and that blood angel captain with the golden half mask are the only characters with models I can think of that have died in the last 20 years! It's why the lore is so incredibly stale and predictable.
Just play your own 40k with the older better lore , the new stuff is awful
Realised something grim: the reason GW is including the tactical, devastator and assault doctrines in newer marine codices is because they want to have a loophole for removing all the firstborn and still _technically_ having the 3 core marine types. Assault marines are already gone and the doctrine remains, so I can only imagine that might be the scheme GW has for the tactical and devastator marines too as they lock the game to the era indomitus.
I have a story so bad GW nearly had to press criminal charges on store manager. No idea how to contact NE.
Should be able to get hold of him via email or discord
You'll have to shine a big sad face with a maltese cross on it into the sky, he'll sling you his deets then. He's right though they've gone so off track since the end of 7th with the lore, such kiddy friendly stuff now.
With all due respect, have you actually READ any black templars books? because you talk about them as if youve only seen them through the lens of lexicanum or memes, the actual acceptance of primaris marines was much more tense than you make it out to be, and one crusade fleet went as far as to MASSACRE all of their primaris reinforcements and the custodian that delivered them. Theyre not stagnant, they see themselves as the emperors will made manifest, if the emperors SON brought them marines, its very likely they view that as the emperor willing them to receive these new marines
When Corax made the raptors and had them duel his veterans for training the raptors while being bigger and physically more powerful lost because they didn't have experience like the veterans. Shame this doesn't occur with the primaris.
The dark angels and flesh tearers should not have alowed them in either
To be fair the Dark Angels mind wiped theirs.
@@northernexile true, but they have done a lot worse to a lot more important for alot less.
Also if it any consolation in the book the meeting between guiliman and Hellbrecht come off alot more standoffish, even if he did weirdly just take guiliman at his word
14:50 So they used geneseed from over the centuries to make the Primaris marines. They’d separate them by first founding origin, and go from there, taking in aspirants and loading into the tanks that would be their training, augmentation and stasis chambers.
For thousands of years.
If anything, Cawl could be brought up on charges for sitting on reinforcements that would have helped humanity out in times of dire need.
Pretty sure a Primarch outranks the High Lords
They will never get this fcker for anything cuz he‘s too fkn smart, he plays Guilliman like a fkn fiddle.
I don’t think it was on accident that Black Templars got the first range of Primaris updates, had to take them down first.
My custom chapter lore is they force the primaris sent to them on a pentance crucade for 10 thousands years of derlaticiton of duty. they then killed the weaken fleet on a fringe world
Accept ANY challenge not matter the odds
- 4th Preyer and Vow of the Black. Templars - as written by Saint Sigismond
Taking one version of the lore and saying “This is it! No changes!” just makes you look like a whiny baby. There’s plenty of old lore that you would freely call nonsense. Half Eldar Ultramarines Chief Librarian anyone? The company that wrote the version you love is the same company that wrote the version you love to hate.
Im pushing to play 3rd/4th with people now, that was the sweet spot for the lore. 40k died when the Primaris appeared, its just not the same and now they are shitting on heresy too with silly cartoony sculpts.
It's not only the templars that wouldn't accept them. Chapters like the Red Scorpions wouldn't either.
Funny i just recently started looking back at some old editions and am playing with the idea of going back to 3/4 edition. Those are what was out around the time some friends got me into the 40k universe. I dont have much experience playing but at least i already have a lot of the core units for a small BT army. May just do some SadHammer 😆
Everything Sci-Fi eventually turns into Star Trek, specifically the Borg. Everything must be assimilated into one piece of crap hodge podge of generic, cut and dry garbage. I want Black Templar stories where they have to fight the human centipede in space, I want stories that make me feel uncomfortable with gratuitous violence, I want people to be as uncomfortable reading about Black Templars having to beat to death face melting aliens with their bare hands as they are watching a Serbian film, that's what 40K was, that's who the Black Templars were, it wasn't for everyone but it sat in its own edgy niche pretty well
The TRUE sons of Dorn will NEVER accept the blasphemous Primaris abominations, see Throne of Light novel ! ! !
Iirc in the helbrecht book it goes into more detail of helbrecht and guilliman meeting (not a huge amount more but more nonetheless) and helbrecht basically tells gman that the new primaris would have their indoctrination undone, theyd be broken down into neophyte groups, then reindoctrinated and built back up so that theyd have the beliefs, training, and combat style that all templars had rather than ultramarines in templar colors
Now I want to build a templars army lol
Honestly, I think the addition of Primaris would've been fine if there was no lore stuff about it, just upscaled Space Marines. That's it. The armor may look a good bit different, but I think them being just thrown in like they were always there would've still been better than all the stupid shit for the overall setting that happened due to the Primaris being added.
100% agree, black templars should have kept their grim dark and slapped Gulliman off of their ship and take his new Marines . More reasons for in -fighting other than Badab war . Good vid North
also 40k has been dead for a bit. they have a lot of black washing and forced diversity when the game is supposed to be about european futuristic scifi fantasy thst is gritty. not some stupid marvel wanabe. it sounds like they want to make 40k turn into an avengers movie
"B..but muh bAsEd spezz ahriunzz"
To be honest, the idea that any of our current day ethnicities would prevail after 40'000 years of interbreeding, ecologic changes, mutation and genetic engineering is quite absurd to begin with.
If you wanted to be realistic everyone in 40k should look like the macdonalds amerimutt or some entirely new form of human all together.
Also keep in mind that all space marines with a historical background are essentially just a bunch of LARPers with no connection whatsoever to the ancient terran cultures they are plagarizing.
The templars are as much teutonic knigts as your next basement hentai neckbeard is a "based" warrior shogun my dude.
Agree on the disney avengers part tho.
Commercialising it to appeal to a greater market as much as possible
Guilliman is the Imperial Regent. If Helbrecht had said no he wouldve gotten put in his place for refusing a gift from the emperor. Aka dead
Not gonna lie I was thinking “woah this guy got really mad about this” but totally understood why. Then when you said how it should have been written I was thinking “yea GW fethed up. Imma bit angry too” 😅
On the contrary, Throne of Light showed me that the true Knights of DORN would NEVER accept the blasphemous Primaris abominations ! ! !
I get what you saying, but as a BT user I don’t see the Primaris change as bad.
Gulliman is revered second to Emperor himself. So long as their anti psycher and anti alien, and worship Emperor as a God, why would they turn down better soldiers?
Integrate Primaris soldiers into the BT culture and no big deal. Gotta say this video title scared me, made me think they going woke or something.
I stopped reading 40k when I realized there are no stakes.
Well, the Templars regard the Emperor as a GOD, so when an actual loyal Son of GOD offers them more troops, they probably would accept them ( as long as Guilliman didn't say anything silly like the Emperor isn't a God in earshot ), and then make them ditch all the new equipment and troop types in favour of Neophyte Crusading gear and send them to the forefront while getting them into the Imperial Cult.
Gabriel Seth was right. Primaris marines are a replacement for our grim dark marines. Just as the primaris are Flesh Tearers in name only they are also Black Templars in name only.
Primaris Marines lack the connection to the chapters identity in both cases and that's what i dislike about them.
The primaris being created en masse was the biggest mistake. Personally I despise their look and their lore, but It would have been acceptable if they were introduced as a small number of elite troops. Trying to replace the OG marines spits in the face of all the lore and history for literally every chapter. Even the ultramarines should have rejected them as the very notion that they are replacable after defending humanity for thousands of years is an insult to their legacy.
6:12 Black Templars would NEVER lie about doing the God Emperor's most divine will ! ! !
I knew the end times had arrived when I read the lore on Caul and the PrimarySues and I have the receipts. Sold over 17,000 points of painted and based Space Wolves, many of which were original metal sculpts and RT era vehicles. You're mad about Black Templars... look in the new Space Marine Codex... there are pictures of PRIMARYSUE CHARCARODONS!
I’ve long since given up with GW, sad really as they did get me into the hobby. But I couldn’t care less what they do with their IP’s now.
I agree with you that a lot of this writing is bad. I agree with you there's been some change in tone. But I see it differently. I think the Horus Heresy series had a big influence on modern 40k. We glimpsed a world where The Emperor says that he isn't a god; that logic and reason conquers barbarism. But things went wrong and the galaxy became neo-medieval and fanatical. The Emperor's vision was turned on its head. But now Guilliman, who actually remembers the original vision, is putting out fires where he can and it is becoming a synthesis of the two. I don't think it's a bad thing, I think there is plenty of both fanaticism and neoclassical thinking. It's evolving. Is it written well? In some places it is and some places it most definitely isn't. So the transition feels awkward and maybe like something that shouldn't be happening. One place where this happens beautifully is in the third Mephiston novel. An Imperial Guard officer completely loses his faith in the Emperor. He hates the godlike mural he looks at every day. But when the building gets bombed, he sees the painting beneath it, made during the Great Crusade, of a human Emperor with pain and determination in his eyes. The officer has the revelation that the Emperor is a MAN, and he has insecurities just like everyone else, and the officer recieves a brand new type of faith. And that's the moment when the war turns. I thought the synthesis was working as it should because of the good writing. So I think the new 40k can be good, it just isn't a lot of the time.
I actually wanted to give a long comment on your video last week about how the Imperium should not be united but didn’t have time and at this point i doubt anyone would see it but I wanted to say something here.
You are right they are trying to tone down the Black Templars and it’s such a shame. I don’t mind primaris and use some in my custom chapter but i think they really need to be reworked (and I have my own ideas on how to go that but i digress).
I do like your idea on how they could be incorporated into the Black Templars. It fits wonderfully with the knightly aesthetic the BT have. It also is something GW could easily take that concept and run with it making models, rules, and maybe even entire games based on that concept. But I doubt they’d do that
This is why I stick to 30k as 40k has been royally screwed up lore wise
This was a cool rant. I loved it. I could feel my temperature rise as I got a bit miffed at what you were ranting about. Nice one.
However, let's take a few things into consideration here.
Games Workshop is doing a fantastic job at not completely and utterly capitulating and bowing down to "W0|
Around 2005, When i first got into 40k, i loved the spacewolves. The ragnar books hooked me! Flash forward 10 years, i'm no longer in school, living on my own away from family/friends and I picked up salamaners because i liked green, i get to paint fire, and they actually try to defend humanity. They were relative "good dudes". Move forward another 5 ish years and now ive reassessed my inital idea of what the BT are.
Before i just dismissed them as crazy zealots... which they are. However, Now i see them as characters who's conviction is beyond measure, in a universe beyond reason where compromise is a path to certain death.
Helsreach had a lot to do with reforming my opinion. Then i listened to some epic lore videos on Sigismund... this mf was the definition of relentless. 🙌 (AmberKing & Baldermort) Im just happy to find an army again that im genuinely excited to paint/customize.
I feel like someone has stolen my life's story!
@@einrauser6103 lol good memories
An entire primaris detachment slaughtered, then precedes to neckbeard because one wins later. . . . 😂
To be fair your idea of how the Black Templars should have accepted the Primaris Astartes is better than the written lore.
Just finished HELBRECHT, I can weed out all the PRIMARIS references and it was a pretty decent book. The High Marshal NEVER needed to cross the Rubicon ! ! !
Primaris space marines really do clash dramatically with older lore. Why would dark angels accept Primaris? they kill fellow imperials for even getting close to finding out about the fallen but the Girly man spawned marines get a pass? Templars wouldn't have them, Iron hands wouldn't have them, Blood angels I won't even start. Point being it's easier to name the chapters that would be open to primaris.
War of Secrets is a novel that touches on DA mistrust of the new primaris (the protagonist) as a theme in the story.
Now I haven't read it but Ive heard it ends with DA accepting primaris. Overall I think the events of that book aren't organic to the setting but forced for plot and plastic toy sales. @@yorkletronik
@@fuhd9892 Yes probably. It's interesting in one way as the primaris protagonist comes across as a lot more empathetic/heretical (delete as applicable!) when it comes to imperial workers who allied with xenos, probably for access to shoes.
The Eternal Crusade IS about EXPANDING the most holy Emperor's domain ! ! !
Thanks for this I thought it was just me who thought this anti grim dark push was just in my head I came in at end of 9th start of 10th wanted to do black templars and flesh tearers but not as primaris cause I read helsreach, crusaders of dorn and the fleah tearers aumibus but the first born range is gone so I decided on playing heresy as world eaters instead cause I don't want to buy primaris marines and heresy world eaters are awesome. It sucks cause I got all excited for the grim dark war of the future but the new lore is grim dork and I don't like it
Yes, grim dork is what it has become. I'm out!
Stuff like this is why my view on primaris are one of 3 things
1. They shouldn't exist, or just be a new mark of armor. You wouldn't have to justify nonsensical things to get chapters to accept them, despite it being completely out of character.
2. Guilliman should have created them after reawakening (and Cawl should be exclusively a 40k character instead of the immortal warp squirrel he is). Seeing how fucked the situation is he sees the Emperor and basically does a 40k version of what Corax did, but without the Alpha Legion fucking it up. This fixes the vast majority of primaris problems, as now you're not sitting one a legion or 2 worth of super marines through conflicts that could have used them because papa blueberry was on ice with no contingency for it.
3. GW actually stuck to them being separate from the firstborn. Having two space marine lines, going the route of the Imperium splintering. With the firstborn either now representing those who wish to remain in their traditional ways, belief in the Emperor, and the High Lords of Terra or representing the ones that have gone a bit renegade or remain neutral like they did in the Age of Apostacy. With the primaris being the symbol of Guilliman's reconstituted Imperium Secundus, that aligns with 30k Imperium and technological progress, and the chapter's that follow him are remade into primaris.
One of these 3 things I believe would have been much better than we got, and one allows for the stories to be relatively unchanged, for better and for worse.
also makes the xenos/traitors far more puny now, midget orks/chaos against 10ft marines lol
@heimdul2981 yea the game has a serious scale problem both in lore and on tabletop. Like some of the most major conflicts having fewer troop deployments than some real-life battles had casualties.
I can tell you why games workshop are doing this have you seen the society we live in now Warhammer is for everyone that doesn’t fit with the xenophobic, grim dark of the 41st millennium.
The grim dark setting of 40K doesn’t fit the rainbows of society now a days that’s what’s happening games workshop are altering the setting to appeal to a wider customer base.
As always chasing that wider audience will result in a crash and burn.
North you're a little late to the fight on this one...
I think its more they needed a narrative device to have Primaris scale BTs. The lore serves the table top game other wise its tail wagging the dog. Difficult to monetise the concept of Helbrecht but the miniature is crispy clean and £32.50
It's Mary-Sue level writing - the universe needs to bend around the Sue, everyone who likes the Sue is good, everyone who doesn't is evil, their struggles and flaws are incredibly minor and they succeed with minimal effort time and time again - and the people who write this nonsense think these are character traits the audience enjoy.
I discovered M. D. Ireman on Audible and "The Axe and The Throne" is a damn effective listen to get you into the feeling of how grimdark medieval fantasy should feel - I want to hope GW doesn't muck with how WHFB's setting was when they finally release The Old World and keepthings how they are in novels like the Gotrek & Felix books, but I expect it'll be going the same way as 40K has.
I'm starting to think this guys is an oldtimer and I guess I'm right, no wonder he whines
They should have just made the space marines, and chaos space marines bigger without an in lore reason.
Good idea, but i think if they had done this we would watch a video how GW fucked up the new marines without lore
I've been a BTs fan since 1999 and GW lost me when Guilliman came back and the BTs joined the Eldar (sorry Aeldari...) as part of a crusade. I remember seeing the artwork for it and almost screaming, "XENOS SCUM!!!! Why are the Templars fighting alongside them?! They should be purging them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
I pretty much stopped my collection after that; I felt betrayed. My boys in black got done dirty and I'll not forgive GW for it.
I don't necessarily have an issue with the Primaris either, they're cool models (hate the lore). But don't stick them in a fanatical chapter like the Templars, or even the Dark Angels. Lazy writing!
That's God level petty 😂
@@BM-wf9uf maybe it is, but the story is very important to me.
Guilliman literally is a son of their god. Hence why Helbrecht accepted him and Angevin (which is not pronounced how you did by the way, the a is like a longer o, the e is silent and the i is closer to an a sound) had to fight as the guys who came to his fleet were not the sons of the Black Templars god.
Good idea by having them fight in traditional duels. Though, I'd imagine Helbrecht himself getting involved and fighting one on one against the highest in the Primaris' ranks. Why? For one, they wear the colors of Sigismund, how dare they. Second, there's a high ranking member in their ranks, who decided that? Sure as fuck not a brother in black. Sure, some of the other marines would have issues, asking to take his place, but it's his duty above all to see who these invaders are and why the Hell their wearing their colors and bearing their standard. As soon as the Primaris loses, everyone like them are stripped of rank and brought down to neophyte status until they hone their skills, the traditions and everything that will make them EARN their place underneath the veterans who lead them either begrudgingly or see the potential in these new versions and their upgrades...some of which becoming an issue looking down on human neophytes as an option by some while others are just waiting to get enough reason to report to Helbrecht to either strip them of their armor and send them back to sender...or send them on suicide missions befitting their lack of combat experience and bring the bodies back for dissection/harvesting for parts that would benefit the Chapter while also having tech priests/Tech Marines reverse engineer their weapons and armor for the same purpose. I'm sure there are other Grimdark options but these were the ones that came to mind given how zealous and temperamental the Templars are.
I have a 7k BT army is and mostly primaris my interpretation is if the HIGH MARSHAL Helbretch under went the transition to Primaris then suck it up. He is the voice and overarching authority of BT and any Bt feeling or personal ideology can brought to high marshal himself. The reality is the imperium is on a losing battle of survival on all sides and the one who dont want to change can die ignorant. But as the most loyal servant of Emperor they should do what it take to preserve his imperium, especially if his son Guilliman (practically a Demi God to them) is The only loyalist Primarch around still.
Black Templars thing is just a tip, I think. Primarchs returning, new technology was a departure from grimdark and now 40k is pretty much Horus Heresy like setting. Though dang, North you have a hate boner from here to freaking Kazakhstan for Ultramarines, lol.
Primaris simping will be dealt with extreme prejudice.
I think they wouldn't even bother saying the word HERITIC .
just retcon it, primaris never happened
Im a space vikings player and i will never buy a basic primaris marine. It stinks of heresy to me and i dont like that its simply a means of phasing out our models. Forcing the comunity to buy them or have their force retired. Like they have already done to many models already.
They are too vanilla for me anyway. Not enough space viking wolfy goodness for me to even think twice about it. First born all the way
I imagine narratively, depositing imperial fist Greyshields into chapters as divergent as the Black Templars, would be like that Horus Heresy aspirant being disappointed about being sent to the White Scars legion instead of the Luna Wolves.
And most chapters have heavily ingrained chapter traditions, and cultures. It would be an interesting story to write and tell if a more Crimson Fist esque greyshield was tasked to join the half crossed Word bearers and world eaters chapter that is basically legion strength.
Can you remember the only post-Horus Heresy Marine vehicle produced according to MkIII fluff?
The Land Raider Crusader.
And who invented it?
The Black Templars.
So much for no new tech for Black Templars.
Razorbacks STC was discovered in M36...
@@dandybeyond7234Yes, but that was an STC, so approved by AdMech and thus the Omnissiah ie the God-Emperor.
The Crusader was built by Techmarines, so technically a heresy.
If North’s point is that Black Templars resist all changes to what they perceive to be their God’s plan, finding an STC would be fine or could even be the Emperor’s divine blessing. People diverging from the plan by innovating, be it Cawl designing Primaris Marines or a Techmarine nailing Bolters on a Land Raider, would be a change they would blindly resist.
Or his argument falls flat and they will indeed use new technology if it helps them kill xenos and heretics.
@@tokunator1442 Your question was 'the only post-Horus Heresy Marine vehicle produced' Marines use Razorbacks. HOWEVER... 'I heard you like heavy bolters so I added some heavy bolters to your heavy bolters' is a FAR CRY from 'The Emperor created these organs and was too stupid to use them in his warriors so I will'...
The Sons of Dorn ARE my main army ! ! ! 2:35
Funnily enough, this happened around 2017, the same time that the ceo changed over. Which was cheered for at the time... but see where we are now.
Primaris have always been absolutely garbage in the lore. Shoe horned in.
It was never ever needed, they absolutely could have just said we're updating space marines to look cooler ~ see how badass they look *points*. Writing them in as a separate thing to replace the old boys was always a stupid, lame idea that breaks the well established lore. And did cause me to nope out.
BT were ruined in 6th when they became Emperor worshipers.
I hate the story of Primaris marines. They should have just been the same marines with a new mark of armor.
My eldar in lore dont trust mon,kei. We kill on sight and exept no surrender. The Beil-sken are part of the supirior asaunari race. And we will retake are galaxy by any means necessary
No one cares, everyone hates elves.
Not if the Dynasties rise up and reclaim the lawn of the galaxy you kids are on first
@@philgagnon275 whatever. Go back to retirement tomb old bucket if bolts
Haven’t the Black Templars always been kind and understanding?
Sorry for you guys about your hobby.
I totally understand- when Springfield Armory executives in 2018 were WORKING WITH anti gun groups… many of us SOLD our Springfields just to ditch the brand and boy did they pay a price for that.
So what's the deal? GW trying to turn 40k into Star Trek? 😂
your suggestion for how the templars primaris are selected to join has been done recently in the latest Flesh Tearers book, where Seth makes every primaris fight a FT 1st born to gain entry and if they lose they get stationed doing the worst jobs until they win a bout. Seth and all the rest of the FT's treat all primaris as weak and lesser because they can't fall to the black mist.. or can they?
My chapter was made of Greyshield veterans, gifted new astartes and the tech to continue making them to become canonized as a chapter. Picking colors, and heraldry.
The combat crucible their veterans fought in (officers and veterans alike) had them fighting alongside Greyshields from all the various legions, and it was sort of like a much larger version of Deathwatch for a time.
They serve under Lord Dante, in Imperium Nihilus. The chapter master enacted emergency protocol reorganizing the chapter so every company was a main battle company.
I collect the 8th company, who is fighting in a sector where a Dyson sphere has been detected and is going through on going engagements with Tau, Necron and chaos forces.
Gulliman is a Primarch who does diplomacy like Iron Warriors do siegecraft.
Bend the knee!
40k Lore after 7th Edition does not exist. Simple as that.
I havent seen anyone state this, but the way the primaris were added to the BT and how the BT that resisted acted towards their introduction was an intentional insult to the old guard of warhammer, like the players who dislike them are the incel man babies and we just have suck it up and accept them because they are here to say. It is a terrible way of adding them and insulting to the fan base that like them (im a HUGE BT fan boy) for their incredible lore and their crusading aspect. They are nothing now but sad little boys on a tamper tantrum. Its actually enough for me to not want to play warhammer anymore as it is just a milk toast version of its darker and more interesting olderself.
Robute "Plot Armour" Guilliman strikes again....
GW bones it's story and bones it's customers like we were fleshlights. Keep your armies, play OPR and give GW the finger
I agree the grim dark is gone, but your black Templar take is weak imo.
Hi North, I think you might enjoy a book called War of Secrets, from the Space Marine Conquest series, but you can read it stand-alone if you want to see Dark Angels being Dark Angels while dealing with the primaris 😂
@@phandaal my point stands
Feels pretty dumb if youre a fan on one of the xenos factions and you are up againt the ENTIRE imperium.
I'm totally fine with BTemplars being all too eager to accept a new weapon, especially one delivered by their uncle Guilleman.
Even then there was one crusade that killed the custodes and the primaris they were delivering.
Killing custodes=bad
But north, how else will GW sell you black primaris lieutenants?
But the miniatures look so much better