The Psychology of Charles Manson
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- Dr. Kirk Honda analyzes the psychology and history of Charles Manson.
The Psychology In Seattle Podcast.
Dec 4, 2017.
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Thank you for discussing Charles Manson without glorifying the man. He certainly needs to be studied because he is ingrained in American culture, and in a way he exposed the flaws of America that needs attention. I appreciate your objective analysis.
But also, without demonizing him. If you remember--and this is not something I've heard mentioned recently since Manson died--Vincent Bugliosi turned him into a supernatural conduit for Satan himself. Charlie, according to Bugliosi's account, could stop a person's watch just by looking at it. For a young person growing up in the 70's, Manson was like the Amityville House in pop culture. The myth of the magical cult leader who ordered his zombified sex slaves to murder in order to launch Armageddon. It was a story that was too good for Hollywood to ignore. They turned their version of Manson into a movie monster something like Freddy Kruger. Over and over, the crimes were turned into entertainment until Manson became a motif. Witness the series, Aquarius, or Manson as a character on American Horror Story.
Then people like Geraldo Rivera kept the myth alive because it was good for ratings. It's disgusting to watch Rivera goad a mentally ill man. Rivera asks Manson, "Are you evil, Charlie?" Manson replies, "Aww, man, come on, I'm like everybody else, I'm good and I'm evil." Rivera says, "Tell me about the evil, Charlie." Every once in a while they'd let him out of the hole to poke him with a stick, not unlike how visiting the inmates at a Victorian lunatic asylum used to be weekend entertainment. Geraldo promised him a guitar if he'd participate and at the end of the interview when Manson asks for it, Rivera says, "We tried. They wouldn't let us bring it in."
Even now, the mass media can't ignore the story. The recent documentary, Manson: His Final Words, is the first one in 50 years that attempted to de-mythologize the crimes.
So, I think this analysis is interesting. thank you.
I guess if you believe in the supernatural then I can see why one would want to bring up demons, satanic angels, etc. I can see where you are coming from 100% and I agree with you. I don't tend to believe in things that go bump in the night. If you do, by all means interpret him in whatever Christian/religious way you want.
I think he was a small time pimp, manipulator and conman. there's nothing particularly otherworldly about him and my point is that plugging him into our archetypes for 'EVIL' mythologizes him and explains a good deal of why his legend continues. I think it would be smarter and more respectful to the victims to think of these crimes as evil with a small 'e' than a large 'E'.
In your belief that we should 'demonize' Manson, are you ok with the entertainment industry continually rolling him out as a movie monster? I think if I was a member of one of the victims families I would be sick of it and I know that Debra Tate has recently criticized the producers of AHS so I guess that she's sick of it too.
I agree that he was a manipulator like Jim Jones and Alex Jones, or like any of the countless numbers of pimps and conmen out there. I agree with your analogy which already is moving away from turning him into "the most evil man alive."
I personally feel able to see him in the light of a person who was a violent psychopath with mental illnesses who deserved to die in jail. To me, that just seems to be more of the truth than American pop culture making him into the 'most evil man alive' or someone who can stop watches with their evil powers. THAT is more about making money.
But if you feel the best way to honour the memory of the victims of these crimes is to demonise Charles Manson, than by all means please continue to do so. I support your views totally. I just think that route contributes to more tasteless exploitation of the victims. Thanks for commenting.
PS: I'm also sick of people saying that Charlie wasn't guilty because he didn't kill anyone personally. I'm not saying that. As regards sympathy, I try to feel compassion for all living things. I don't always succeed but compassion is my goal.
Joseph Pond yes, he was not demonizing either. Manson was no angel, and should not be emulated, but he is a fascination to many, and that can’t be ignored
yes, I agree with you. That was my point. As a little boy growing up in the 70's I bought into the myth of the 'most evil man alive' and the Boogy Man is always fascinating to people. As a child, I didn't have the filters to understand that it's about ratings when shows like Geraldo's turn up the rhetoric. By way of contrast, I appreciate the intelligent tone of this podcast.
Joseph Pond yes, it is never a nice feeling when you feel manipulated by the media. As for Manson, it doesn’t take much to know he was also a manipulative person as well. And who are the victims and predators? The young people looking for someone to follow. Someone they hope has their best interest in mind. But it’s really self serving charismatic leaders they blindly follow . That’s sad.
It’s so interesting listening to this in 2020 as a young person when all of the black lives matter protests are going on when you were talking about protests and students going against “the man”.
Okay, Doc... Let me be clear: It's ok to talk about serial killers, and it's a public service in a way, or has been for me since I used serial killer documentaries to help desensitize myself to get over some nasty panic attacks. I don't like seeing them idealized or admired, but I definitely think there's a way to discuss this topic without glorifying it, and you did it! This video is fascinating while still honoring only the general stink around Manson's horrific legacy.
I dunno how useful it is to tell this to a shrink, but I read that desensitizing oneself to triggering stimuli can decrease anxiety, and my panic attacks were easily triggered by violence in movies. So I figured documentaries of well-known cases of violence would be less threatening since I knew the stories a bit, and I could control how much I would see ahead of time. And it's helped a lot! It's probably not for everyone, but it's given me a less "I'm unstable, I'm going crazy" outlook on myself. Anxiety can feel like "crazy" until you actually see "crazy."
So telling the stories can be a good thing, a healing thing! You did it right. You didn't put Manson on a pedestal. This entire podcast was good for me to hear, so thank you!
Don't know if you'll see this, two years later, but your comment reminded me of an interview of a survivor of Bundy's attack on the sorority in Tallahassee. She told the horrifying story, pretty much the one all women have worried about when finding themselves home alone or walking a dark street at night, and then she described a lifelong interest in unraveling the mystery ofTed Bundy. It was so puzzling and counterintuitive, but she read all the many books about the monstrous human who altered her life forever, and this somehow helped her to gain the perspective she needed. I wonder if part of that was a desensitization process similar to what you are describing. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
@@dreamingrightnow1174 It's probably not just about desensitization, it's also about getting to understand WHY people do/did really bad things to other people (or even oneself). I was severly traumatized by my parents in my childhood and youth, so I found it enlightening to get know about serial killings and other forms of violent crimes and abuse, as I would better understand why my parents would do these terrible things to me and also better understand my own anger and aggressions resulting from the abuse I experienced. It's easier to cope with traumatizations and their aftermath, when you know what makes people traumatize others, it helps understanding that nothing that was done to you was your own fault and it helps to not pass on the abuse and break that fucking circle of violence.
I think one of the biggest reasons that we *need to know* a serial killer's motives is because we're deeply disturbed and horrified by the their actions. Understanding a serial killer's motives from a detached, scientific/counselling perspectives allows us to create emotional distance between our own internal state and the horror of the killer's actions. We can perceive their actions from a distance and avoid getting sucked in to their disturbed reality.
I watch these while i'm at work inputting data and it makes my day go by so much faster. These are the best. Thanks
The more I learn about Manson, the more my heart breaks for the child he never got to be . He’s a poster child for child abuse .
His one happy memory of childhood was once his mom hugged him .
Heartbreaking.
I seek to understand rather then judge that which I don’t understand .
Karen Grace - I as well. I'm in my fifties and understood even as a teenager that the abuse he suffered is beyond comprehension.
i thnk ur right' ted bundy also had a horrific childhood,bad childhoods dnt always make a dysfunctional adult,but it is definitely a factor in a lot of criminals
EXACTLY. Nowadays they would send him to therapy instead of boys school.
Manson's early trauma, and it certainly was trauma, made him more likely to be predisposed to exhibit anti social behaviour. Very sad childhood indeed.
Carpe Sixties I hope one day we will all evolve & learn to have compassion for the wounded child in each other , rather then judge how each other expresses their pain .
Mother Teresa used to say the greatest poverty in the world is being unwanted unloved uncared for ,
When a baby is brought into the world under these conditions, it shapes how they see the world & themselves .
Some kids never have a chance .
Youre the first person ive heard mention Medgar Evers, ever, like, thank you, the history should not be forgotten!
*talks about Elliot Rodger*
“If you don’t know who Elliot Rodger, good.”
Me: *looks up Elliot Rodger*
Annnd, now I'm binge watching "Mindhunter"
The sad thing is that Charlie was before his time; if the Tate-LaBianca murders happened today, they'd make headlines in LA and Hollywood but the story would be back page news in 2 weeks.
Yes. Sadly true.
I would love to hear an episode of Charles Tex Watson as I would like to hear an analysis of him from a therapist
Watson at the time of murders was an established thief and mugger. He developed modus operandi typical for the time - ripping off drug dealers, like in the case of Bernard Crowe. It seems that most guys in the group were under Charlie's criminal influence, wanting to be a hardened outlaw just like him. This certainly did much harm to Bobby Beausoleil, whom tried to play hardcore debt collector but ended up just killing a guy.
Especially after Tarantino's new film. I think it's a glorious idea: don't be afraid of shit little evils, stand up, you've lost your life anyway, don't let the little shit rule, and they bleed out at the first obstacle.
In the real event, there were two men in house outnumbering shitty texy. They died anyway. They could have overpowered him at the cost of their own lives, for their lives worth was very low that hour anyway.
a lot of data on Katherine Maddox is taken from Manson's own words and it should be taken with a huge grain of salt. After being released she remarried, adopted another child, she visited Charlie as often as she could when he was in jail for auto theft. She wasn't a prostitute and she wasn't a drunkard - that's a myth.
I remember watching a TV show, (the title is evading me) of people who collect serial killer memorabilia like the artwork of Gacy. I found it horrifying and fascinating of why people would disrespect the victims in such a way as some people made a profit of selling these items and they honestly didn't have any moral qualms about it. I was disgusted by it and the public's obsession with serial killers and leaders reminds me of this. It is a little distressing when you think about it.
Would love to hear your thoughts on 'Dont F with Cats' (Netflix)
I think the fascination with Manson is that he was able to turn average people into vicious killers. The fact that any of us could be manipulated into committing such violent acts will be a constant source of discussion.
Crazy to think he was born in the 1930s... his legacy seems like he's so recent.
The depth of human mind is interesting to delve into. What a man can do when broken.
I confess that I used to find Manson & other spree killers fascinating, but you really put it in perspective for me about how much harm our obsession with these people actually does in the long run. They're not even that interesting--just malicious, pathetic losers.
I'll bet Manson wanted us to be fascinated with him. The fact that he got 60,000 letters a year just infuriates me to no end.
Agreed. Thanks for sharing!
Buying/selling serial killer memorabilia is a booming business these days, and I think THAT takes it too far. It's ok to be interested in serial killers, but there's a line between a healthy interest and morbid curiosity.
the wanderer - get a life
Carpe Sixties hey buddy, you're the one replying to a month old comment I'd completely forgotten about
A lot of you realise that Manson didn't actually order these killings right ? And that the kids who commited these murders are all drug dealers and not hypnotised hippies.Read "The Manson File" by Nikolas Schreck for a full honest interpretation of the media cover up .
Very interesting I respectfully disagree with the idea that talking about these people makes them heroes, but of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and are just trying to do their part to come up with a solution. Keep up the good content!
Caesar I agree with you ...
As for the Tate murders, I thought that he thought he was killing a man that had cheated him or denied him a record deal?
Wow! I just found your channel thanks to Paris Hilton and I love everything I’ve heard so far... also you have great merch!
Lots of comments here! I remember reading a Life magazine article about a milestone anniversary of the Woodstock concert. Journalist wrote, hippies were college age, their parents supported them, their parents worked for corporate America. When the hippies got older and their parents no longer supported their college/hippy lifestyle, they themselves had to up and find jobs somewhere. And where was that? Corporate America. The Establishment. The Man.
Exactly. There have been many pieces on that phenomenon: ex-hippies becoming the man.
There were hippies and their were trust fund baby phony hippies. Sadly the "counter-culture" made a hero out of The Family; Manson was "man of the year" on a LA underground paper with a large number of subscribers in early '69. Those people hated America and admired Manson's philosophy and actions; those same people ended up in the corporations, schools, colleges and government, bringing their Left Wing "hate America" attitude with them. That's partly why the country is so screwed up today.
Once upon a time in Hollywood is the Quentin Tarantino movie and I recommend watching it, it’s not your typical Manson movie and there are twists I think if you’re bothered by the anti-hero problem of society worshipping evil people than you would appreciate that movie a lot.
and SPEED.
That drug added, maybe fueled, the change within the group.
Why don't you cover that Charles Mansion was in Scientology? He did Scientology courses which inevitably lead to him thinking he was a sort of god. His communication and leadership skills were honed together with cold-heartedness and cold-bloodedness. He pursued some individual loner's sensation of freedom in return for destroying other human beings. That is purely the scientology recipe of ascending to higher echelons: laughing into others' faces equals freedom and personal development. He received wings for that flight.
He lived with his aunt when his mother went to prison. I mean it's definitely an interesting topic, but a lot of your information is inaccurate.
I just found you looking for stuff about Dirty John. Interesting POV that you bring to the mix. I have since enjoyed several of your you tube videos. Having said that, I HATE that all of these people have people feeling sorry for them (even posthumously) due to their probable horrific childhoods. Instead of turning to a life of crime and or killing people, I am writing a book. There are few people who have gone through what I survived, including surviving a now defunct religious cult and the foster care system with ALL the flavors of abuse therein, and yet... I have NEVER hurt anyone intentionally, stolen anything (except for when I succumbed to peer pressure and stole a hairbrush, and a few shirts when I was 14. I also gave them back the SAME DAY, and told the store owner what happened.) I BARELY drink, and don't do drugs, and I went back to school on a scholarship and have a dual college degree. Oh, and I also have a son who is now an adult with multiple disabilities whom I have raised alone for most of his life since my now ex husband abandoned us 12 years ago. Thus, I did NOT pass the abusive torch, and torture my son the way that my now late little brother (suicide) and I were tortured as children. The "Abuse excuse" in my opinion frankly Sucketh. To clarify, I am NOT saying that you are perpetuating this premise, but many in society still do. We don't have control when we are children over the "monsters" we are born to, but we do have CHOICES as adults, and our past should never be an excuse for our present or future behavior. No one new deserves to suffer for the sins that were once visited upon us "wounded kids" in our past. JMO
Damn your a legend
If you only knew how many threats I threw out there and would back them up and nobody is scared of my 5 foot 3 ass. LOL
Video Starts at 18 minutes
Charles spent his life in prison for not telling anyone to kill the 8 victims, Sharon Tates mother even says Manson was innocent and blamed for everything. Tex and the women admit everything and did not blame Manson for manipulation or anything. With the exception of Susan how many years after the fact decided maybe she was manipulated.
He never killed anyone, but lost his life in prison. Killing and Taking away a persons life are the same but yet The Judge, the Police, the media everyone involved not a trace of remorse???? So messed up.
Agreed.
Mostly from reading the comments I get a picture of a person who is not so much the man who manipulated a group of innocent kids in to doing his will as he was the point man in a criminal enterprise held together by drugs, sex and fantasies. Seems like justice was served even though the media painted him as something he was not.
Why did he write a song called Arkansas? WHAT? Everytime I've seen Charles Manson in video's he is always so sweet and polite.
Very good work. Such a polarizing figure. I wonder if you would be willing to do a psychology of James Holmes, the Colorado movie theater shooter. James does not meet the criteria you mentioned, which is why his spree made no sense. He came from a wonderful family, was a good student, never got in trouble, and was never violent. Not even a fistfight. I'd love to know, what happened? Even after the trial and many studies, I still don't understand
Thanks! Interesting. I'll look into him. I never looked into that story.
Psychology In Seattle most interesting part is he is still alive.
If you are going to Saan Fraan cisco
Make sure to wear some flowers in your hair....
Do one on susan atkins. If you want. I just think she's be an interesting one to do since her big mouth got them all arrested and with good reason too.
Interestingly it was brought up after the Manson-Beatles-Helter Skelter story became so well known. Atkins family name was Sadie Mae Glutz, aka Sexy Sadie (before the song was released.) The lines "Sexy Sadie, you broke the rules, you laid it down for all to see..." fit her to a T.
indy_go_blue60 She got the name Sadie Mae Glutz for a fake id... Dianne Lake (aka Snake) believes Charlie gave her that name because she thought she was too eager to be the center of attention/prettiest etc
Most of the things the doctor is saying is true. Expect for the reading. He did read and wrote very well, expect for his penmanship. It was horrible just like his actions.
I remember the revolutions on campuses throughout the US at that time. I missed most of them, I was lucky enough to have scored a cool girlfriend/model and we spent all our time in the mountains.
I agree with you regarding talking about the killers and their backgrounds just promotes copy cats! At the same time, I totally enjoyed this episode and want to know more about killers like this too! Lol In addition to what you mentioned about why people might be fascinated about the killers (reasons such as wanting to be informed, as well as trying to “pay attention to danger”, etc), perhaps people are also striving to find patterns that are predictable. People feel less stressed when things are predictable. Additionally, there’s likely curiosity over how a person could kill another person, since it would be really difficult most all of us. Military even struggle at pulling the trigger on enemies because it goes against continuing life to be. At any rate, it might not the best to talk about these people, but I loved listening..it was really interesting!
Thanks, Slient! Yes. I agree.
1:00 he was the point when the media talks about these you don’t hear them mention the names of the victims,I don’t wanna learn about the killers I wanna know there victims who they were, what they were like, how did thier lives affect others I wanna keep there memories alive while the pathetic killers fade into obscurity.
Go on the ed opperman podcast
Dear Dr. You should to read Jeff guinn book about Manson’s childhood.
Will do
helen Kennedy MANSON CHILD GOOD BET IT WILD LOOKING
Yes please read a pile of falsehoods, hyperbole and fluff. Everything Guinn writes is regurgitated garbage. I suggest The Manson Files by N. Schreck.
Everybodies got one, is the lyric, I am the Walrus.
you could do one with Jack the Ripper
U have ! To do the west Memphis 3 an people there involved!
Fascinating person, Manson. Thank you for your analysis, insightful as usual!!! To know more about Manson, his cult and the trial, I recommend Helter Skelter by Vincent Bugliosi. That book got me started on reading true crime books - so interesting on many levels, the formation of a killer, the legal logistics and was justice served in the case.
How intimidating is a small, little 5 foot 2 man? They could have left and not been around him even if they had to sneak out at night or whatever. I'd be dead because nobody is telling me what to do. Or we would be like Bonnie and Clyde. LOL.
You said someone was from Indiana, who were you talking about because Manson was from Ohio. Also that many people could have knocked him out and left if they wanted to. I'm 5'3 so everybody better be scared of me too then. LOL. He didn't seek out these people, they flocked to him. And where did he get money for all of these so called good drugs?
at about 57:26 he suggests that the Beatles were trolling.
That's a relatively true statement. Lennon/ MacCartney both admitted to inserting tiny clues into the lyrics of their music and artwork. At the beginning of the song "Come Together", John Lennon says "shoot me" four consecutive times and an obsessed mentally unstable individual heard it over and over and over again. Got to be careful what you put out there, fame is not really all it's cracked up to be.
Charlie Manson is a liar. You should not believe everything he said. According to Jeff Guinn he was loved but was just a horrible kid
helen Kennedy - I would suggest reading other books besides Jeff Guinn. I read that book plus several others. He's never met the man and for some reason makes excuses for others who murdered- including Bonnie and Clyde who slaughtered multiple people, but shows no mercy for Manson. Jeff Guinn's book was the first one I read and knew even at the beginning he was biased. Manson had a horrific childhood- read some other books
Jeff Guinn spews a lot of the same old lies told about the case. This case has so many tentacles and they reach deep into Hollywood, drugs etc. Think of this, the right wing conservatives wanted desperately to kill the "hippie" movement and to stall all activism that was very close to taking away the power of the elite and could actually totally change our government without a violent revolution. So, these murders happen and the right wing immediately crafted a story to portray a bunch of young, drugged out killers (Susan and Tex) and then blame them on a "hippie cult leader" who did not participate in either of the "Manson murders" and that in all reality led to the death of the activist/hippie counterculture. Sadly, the right wing used those murders to eventually start to turn our country into a fascist state and now, with the latest election, we are losing civil liberties by the day. The Patriot Act took more of our rights and civil liberties than we had lost in 200+ years. So, this case has far reaching consequences that are still echoing today. Guinn...his book was not accurate at all. They want us all fighting over petty BS so that they continue to use lobbyists to buy our government and then make law after law to restrict the power of the people and turn it over to the elite. Wake up people...wake up. It's almost too late at this point.
This explains trump a lot.
Only if you buy the medias version of Charles Manson .
Jerome Alexandre. What the hell does Your President have to do with Manson?
j lucas Same extreme nacissistic personality.
dumpthe chump. Trump and Putin will make America great again.
Well first off I live in the uk but secondaly they are so far apart -I've no idea why anyone would compare them.
22:45 Ouch.