I appreciate the video, I think that malignance is very overbought on Karma, and way overvalued. Karma's e was buffed consistently and her synergy with malignance was nerfed. It's honestly a good build path if you want to solo carry the game as damage Karma, but even then I see her built incorrectly a lot, as Sorc shoes has a significantly higher winrate than Ionian boots and items like Horizon Focus offer more value than Imperial Mandate second if you're going Malignance first, especially if you're looking to solo carry games and not rely on your teammates to proc Imperial Mandate for you. Not only that, but Imperial Mandate has also been nerfed multiple times, and overall provides less value nowadays. For a few patches now Karma has had a significantly higher winrate with the 2 item core of Echoes of Helia (which was buffed many times in a row) into Moonstone, a build path which not only supplements her ability to bully early (with echoes of helia) and win trades through its healing, something that Karma lacks in her base kit, but scales extremely well with the added power of Moonstone and later, Dawncore. This synergizes much better with her identity as a strong early game bully that scales into a shielding monster later onto the game as opposed to Malignance or Imperial Mandate, which fall off hard and delay her late game scaling. Imo she has a scaling profile similar to champions like Caitlyn where they're very strong early but weak mid-game and strong again late. The only issue with Echoes of Helia is that some games it's really hard to land Q's because enemy team is high range and doesn't have an easy front line for you to farm Echoes procs, so you need to weave RQ's inbetween RE's (meaning sometimes you don't have RE in crucial moments). In those games it's much better to just go a build path like Moonstone > Forbidden Idol item (usually redemption or mikael's) > Dawncore. Which still generally has a higher winrate than Malignance or Mandate.
ive agree with literally all of your points here, ive actually thought of several things of what youve said as well. ive also adjusted to echoes into moonstone and more recently moonstone into redemption or locket. i also HARDDD AGREE with some games being very difficult to get echoes procs, very true i look forward to read more of your comments, they're very relatable somehow 💀 edit: if you want to, try adding more space in between each sentence so it would be easier for me to read, similar to how i replied to you, thanks in advance bro :)
@Tom-ev8mk yup! Nothing has changed regarding items that would warrant any of this outdated besides changes with game systems like feats of strength. Imo especially in lower elos playing ap karma will be better this season with malignance > horizon focus than it was last season. But imo it's still situational whether you should go full enchanter with echoes/moonstone vs malignance/horizon
Riot buffed her E a lot so i turn her into a shield bot w mandate, moonstone and dawncore. U should see how much shield she creates, don’t bother the malignance Mantra Q anymore.
Yeah I saw them as well, Mandate moonstone dawncore sounds so fricking fun. I've been doing Mandate into Redemption or Locket depending on if the enemy damage output is slow or in a burst. sometimes i even buy both. Man, i needa buy dawncore again thanks for the comment, i got nostalgic over dawncore haha
yep, my bad on the late reply, yeah definitely. ardent benefits you with its stats on its own and the effect when u shield them with E be really useful. whats cool thats i learned from listening to LS is the true value of getting ardent is difficult to figure out. for example, if ardent helped an ally auto attack one more time in a fight and they had 300 AD, a bonus 300dmg dealt is ALOT. but that number wont be seen, only the on hit ;-;
I actually think that malignance is especially good when you want to start ult eing since it allows you to easily get instant ult resets. And if you can't do those then your just sitting on your ult off coldown until you wanna use your ult e, otherwise you might not have your ult up in time to use a good ult e. 45 abilty haste for your ult from one item is just too damn good. But yeah early in lane your gonna be able to snowball easier with imperial mandate but malignance is defo not terrible the winrates actually suggest the opposite. it will most likely depend on wether you can abuse the bot matchup or not. If you can hard win then imperial mandate might be a bit better but if not i think malignance is the better choice for the midgame double ults.
oh yeah i had to say Malignance being "Terrible" so it makes the chances of people clicking on it more likely, what is more accurate personally to me would be something like "theres a better option". also thanks for the in depth comment, im surprised someone wanted to chat so soon! I understand from your point of view that: - Malignance is still good when starting to R E because of the opportunity to double shield in mid game - The 45 ability haste is extremely valuable to you - Imperial mandate early game does help to snowball more easily I didn't really ever think about using Malignance for double ulti resets myself hmm. thanks for the input and thanks for watching :)
Karma's E doesn't trigger her passive ult cooldown reduction since that only triggers on hitting enemy champs, so you're not going to be getting instant ult resets by empowering your shield regardless of what you build, even if Malignace does give extra ability haste to your ult than imperial mandate.
@@MoneyPrinter123 Yes it doesn't trigger her ult passive but that's the point I was trying to make. If you want to ult e u have to hold onto your ult until it would be a good time to use it, since unlike ult q it doesn't lower the cooldown. But without malignance even the ult q wouldn't be able to instantly reset the ult cooldown unless you hit like 4 people at once. Which means you can't use ur ult q unless ur VERY sure you don't need ur ult e in the next 7 seconds or so. But with enough ability haste you CAN just throw your ult q (as long as it hits someone) and still use ult e shortly after. You wouldn't have to chose between ult e and ult q. You could just use both.
does the data show Karma with Malignance in general? if so, I can't really answer that, its too broad is it possible to go into more detail for the lolalytics data so it shows the winrate on specifically Karma support with Malignance?
Simple with mal u get 20 less cd on r who is esencial for tf on mid-late game and all abilities, besides the brutal poke on lane for 3min more u win more games... so its ez for me mal>imp
could you share to me where you got your source from when saying its the most broken rush item? i havent built echoes of helia for a long time, probably about time that i do, thanks for the reminder edit: I have to be honest here, I watched LS's item video for season 14, he described Echoes as being bad so I honestly just never built it again lol. after rereading the stats on the league wiki, 2 stacks means 120 dmg and 150 healing, thats a total of 270 health difference every time Karma shields an ally thats near an enemy. after 2 e's, the item would have made a 540 hp difference. hmhmmhmhmhmhm sounds good in theory, ill have to test it for sure. once again, thanks for the remimder
@@TyrantBrendorf comment section is incredibly buggy for me so I'll leave another comment with source to be sure th-cam.com/video/e9pcWKciHbM/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=ShoDesu
yeah so i noticed he says 'I think' and 'I feel' for his reasoning, its not convincing enough for me. despite that, that item does help karma get pretty chunky health diffs over time. ill test it. its cool that Echoes is 2200 gold, 100 cheaper than Imperial. To answer if it should work on Karma, my thoughts are to try it out for yourself, im having high hopes for my testing because the numbers seem large enough to be impactful, especially with 2 stacks ready to cast a shield an ally and enemy to activate the damage. That aside, im already thinking, if in lane my adc isn't able to activate the Imp marks, Echoes of Helia is something id consider since it less reliant on the ADC. hope this helps, chat to me anytime, cya bro Edit: added "to cast a shield on an ally" and "to activate the damage" to 'especially with 2 stacks ready to cast a shield on an ally and an enemy to activate the damage.'
yeah so i tested a few games on Karma with Echoes of Helia, I have results, Buying Echoes of Helia with an adc that has a hard time proccing Imperial's mark when your poking in lane is an option that you could consider, someone like Vayne, Zeri and Kalista I'd buy it on. I've been noticing it does noticeably more healing than dealing damage. The healing in lane can be used to keep your adc in lane as you land poke on the enemy bot lane. If you got any questions on you, just comment :)
i'm playing karma rn cuz its crack broken and now i know how to play her so emerald elo should be scare of me. seriously thx for the video, i was building it
Cool and all but if you see the winrate of the best 30 builds for Karma, 28 have malignance, and almost all as first item, facts don't care about your opinion.
could you show me your sources specifically for Karma support for evidence? Also no need for the hostility, you wouldnt be speaking like that in real life, theres more noticeable consequences for it edit: (typo) added a 'c' to properly spell consequences
@@TyrantBrendorf really man? You made a video without doing any research at all? No actual data to back up your claim? It'd take 20 seconds. Open ug lol, search karma, build paths, press to show her as sup and click winrate. You're welcome.
I had a look, I understand that there is a lot of Malignance first items and their winrates are positive, I haven't been able to find any first item Imperials on my search. I understand that you're telling me that first item Malignance has a positive winrate in multiple builds. It's unfortunate that there wasn't any large sample size first item Imperial rushes to show the difference. I'll end the conversation here
metasrc provides winrates by item, and while it recommends malignance as the first item for karma support, it also says imperial mandate (52%) and moonstone renewer (54%) have higher winrates. lolalytics also shows plenty of high elo (challenger/masters) players that don't use malignance, although there are also ones that do.
showing my grandma this video
.
what she say bro
@@a-sleepy-jae She said "this is a sick video little bro" and proceeded to get destoyed in ranked 🥺😭💃
Excellent informational video. Top tier content honestly. We need more stuff like this instead of all the clickbait on youtube!
Thanks for that :) My title is somewhat clickbaity itself but not so excessively haha
I appreciate the video, I think that malignance is very overbought on Karma, and way overvalued. Karma's e was buffed consistently and her synergy with malignance was nerfed. It's honestly a good build path if you want to solo carry the game as damage Karma, but even then I see her built incorrectly a lot, as Sorc shoes has a significantly higher winrate than Ionian boots and items like Horizon Focus offer more value than Imperial Mandate second if you're going Malignance first, especially if you're looking to solo carry games and not rely on your teammates to proc Imperial Mandate for you.
Not only that, but Imperial Mandate has also been nerfed multiple times, and overall provides less value nowadays. For a few patches now Karma has had a significantly higher winrate with the 2 item core of Echoes of Helia (which was buffed many times in a row) into Moonstone, a build path which not only supplements her ability to bully early (with echoes of helia) and win trades through its healing, something that Karma lacks in her base kit, but scales extremely well with the added power of Moonstone and later, Dawncore. This synergizes much better with her identity as a strong early game bully that scales into a shielding monster later onto the game as opposed to Malignance or Imperial Mandate, which fall off hard and delay her late game scaling. Imo she has a scaling profile similar to champions like Caitlyn where they're very strong early but weak mid-game and strong again late. The only issue with Echoes of Helia is that some games it's really hard to land Q's because enemy team is high range and doesn't have an easy front line for you to farm Echoes procs, so you need to weave RQ's inbetween RE's (meaning sometimes you don't have RE in crucial moments). In those games it's much better to just go a build path like Moonstone > Forbidden Idol item (usually redemption or mikael's) > Dawncore. Which still generally has a higher winrate than Malignance or Mandate.
ive agree with literally all of your points here, ive actually thought of several things of what youve said as well.
ive also adjusted to echoes into moonstone and more recently moonstone into redemption or locket.
i also HARDDD AGREE with some games being very difficult to get echoes procs, very true
i look forward to read more of your comments, they're very relatable somehow 💀
edit:
if you want to, try adding more space in between each sentence so it would be easier for me to read, similar to how i replied to you, thanks in advance bro :)
Hey bro I know it’s an old comment but is this advice still applicable on current patch?
@Tom-ev8mk yup! Nothing has changed regarding items that would warrant any of this outdated besides changes with game systems like feats of strength. Imo especially in lower elos playing ap karma will be better this season with malignance > horizon focus than it was last season. But imo it's still situational whether you should go full enchanter with echoes/moonstone vs malignance/horizon
Solid breakdown bro! U got a sub!
Hahaha thanks for the compliment bro, next video comin up is about Ashe and a certain item :D
The legend has returned 🔥
thank you xD
Riot buffed her E a lot so i turn her into a shield bot w mandate, moonstone and dawncore. U should see how much shield she creates, don’t bother the malignance Mantra Q anymore.
Yeah I saw them as well, Mandate moonstone dawncore sounds so fricking fun.
I've been doing Mandate into Redemption or Locket depending on if the enemy damage output is slow or in a burst. sometimes i even buy both. Man, i needa buy dawncore again
thanks for the comment, i got nostalgic over dawncore haha
600k Karma, absolutely approve of this in higher elo!
as mono karma i think the same way bro thnx for the video 🫰
ur welcome, what does mono karma mean?
@@TyrantBrendorf that i only play with her 😄 im obsessed
ohhh thats cool, thats cool. reminds me of magic the gathering, like mono blue deck for example. catcha around next time :)
Welcome back
yes good morning
What do you think about Ardent Censer when I duoq with my friend that plays Jinx ? Is it a good idea ?
yep, my bad on the late reply, yeah definitely. ardent benefits you with its stats on its own and the effect when u shield them with E be really useful.
whats cool thats i learned from listening to LS is the true value of getting ardent is difficult to figure out. for example, if ardent helped an ally auto attack one more time in a fight and they had 300 AD, a bonus 300dmg dealt is ALOT. but that number wont be seen, only the on hit ;-;
Normally yes
It's fantastic, it gives her magic damage on hit allowing her to get more mixed damage off in anyone building armor against her.
I actually think that malignance is especially good when you want to start ult eing since it allows you to easily get instant ult resets. And if you can't do those then your just sitting on your ult off coldown until you wanna use your ult e, otherwise you might not have your ult up in time to use a good ult e. 45 abilty haste for your ult from one item is just too damn good. But yeah early in lane your gonna be able to snowball easier with imperial mandate but malignance is defo not terrible the winrates actually suggest the opposite. it will most likely depend on wether you can abuse the bot matchup or not. If you can hard win then imperial mandate might be a bit better but if not i think malignance is the better choice for the midgame double ults.
oh yeah i had to say Malignance being "Terrible" so it makes the chances of people clicking on it more likely, what is more accurate personally to me would be something like "theres a better option".
also thanks for the in depth comment, im surprised someone wanted to chat so soon!
I understand from your point of view that:
- Malignance is still good when starting to R E because of the opportunity to double shield in mid game
- The 45 ability haste is extremely valuable to you
- Imperial mandate early game does help to snowball more easily
I didn't really ever think about using Malignance for double ulti resets myself hmm. thanks for the input and thanks for watching :)
Karma's E doesn't trigger her passive ult cooldown reduction since that only triggers on hitting enemy champs, so you're not going to be getting instant ult resets by empowering your shield regardless of what you build, even if Malignace does give extra ability haste to your ult than imperial mandate.
@@MoneyPrinter123 Yes it doesn't trigger her ult passive but that's the point I was trying to make. If you want to ult e u have to hold onto your ult until it would be a good time to use it, since unlike ult q it doesn't lower the cooldown. But without malignance even the ult q wouldn't be able to instantly reset the ult cooldown unless you hit like 4 people at once. Which means you can't use ur ult q unless ur VERY sure you don't need ur ult e in the next 7 seconds or so. But with enough ability haste you CAN just throw your ult q (as long as it hits someone) and still use ult e shortly after. You wouldn't have to chose between ult e and ult q. You could just use both.
Well nothing stops you from just buying both. So you should make a video explaining why at least 4 other items are better than malignance as well.
that is true, what 4 other items do you have in mind that I could make a comparison to Malignance?
malignance is simply bad on her, u dont even need to compare it to other items
Lolalytics data shows Karma has more winrate and more pickrate with Malignance though
does the data show Karma with Malignance in general? if so, I can't really answer that, its too broad
is it possible to go into more detail for the lolalytics data so it shows the winrate on specifically Karma support with Malignance?
@@TyrantBrendorf yeah it shows the first item built how many times built in how many games
oh okay, what questions do you have at the moment about Karma and Malignance?
edit: reworded sentence
now that imperial lost the ms buff i dont think its worth anymore. perhaps build sherylias instead
yeah ive been liking shureliyas
Simple with mal u get 20 less cd on r who is esencial for tf on mid-late game and all abilities, besides the brutal poke on lane for 3min more u win more games... so its ez for me mal>imp
If you are just doing R+E 80% of the time, then you are playing Karma wrong.
I was talking about "R E 80% of the time" when its past early game, we can talk more about it if you'd like
edit: typo 🤦
Echoes of Helia is the most broken rush item rn, should work on Karma too, no?
could you share to me where you got your source from when saying its the most broken rush item?
i havent built echoes of helia for a long time, probably about time that i do, thanks for the reminder
edit: I have to be honest here, I watched LS's item video for season 14, he described Echoes as being bad so I honestly just never built it again lol.
after rereading the stats on the league wiki, 2 stacks means 120 dmg and 150 healing, thats a total of 270 health difference every time Karma shields an ally thats near an enemy.
after 2 e's, the item would have made a 540 hp difference.
hmhmmhmhmhmhm sounds good in theory, ill have to test it for sure. once again, thanks for the remimder
@@TyrantBrendorf comment section is incredibly buggy for me so I'll leave another comment with source to be sure th-cam.com/video/e9pcWKciHbM/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=ShoDesu
yep, received
yeah so i noticed he says 'I think' and 'I feel' for his reasoning, its not convincing enough for me.
despite that, that item does help karma get pretty chunky health diffs over time. ill test it.
its cool that Echoes is 2200 gold, 100 cheaper than Imperial. To answer if it should work on Karma, my thoughts are to try it out for yourself, im having high hopes for my testing because the numbers seem large enough to be impactful, especially with 2 stacks ready to cast a shield an ally and enemy to activate the damage.
That aside, im already thinking, if in lane my adc isn't able to activate the Imp marks, Echoes of Helia is something id consider since it less reliant on the ADC.
hope this helps, chat to me anytime, cya bro
Edit: added "to cast a shield on an ally" and "to activate the damage" to 'especially with 2 stacks ready to cast a shield on an ally and an enemy to activate the damage.'
yeah so i tested a few games on Karma with Echoes of Helia, I have results,
Buying Echoes of Helia with an adc that has a hard time proccing Imperial's mark when your poking in lane is an option that you could consider, someone like Vayne, Zeri and Kalista I'd buy it on.
I've been noticing it does noticeably more healing than dealing damage.
The healing in lane can be used to keep your adc in lane as you land poke on the enemy bot lane.
If you got any questions on you, just comment :)
i'm playing karma rn cuz its crack broken and now i know how to play her so emerald elo should be scare of me. seriously thx for the video, i was building it
Hahaha im glad to help bro ^^
What if I just buy both
you could if you want
Cool and all but if you see the winrate of the best 30 builds for Karma, 28 have malignance, and almost all as first item, facts don't care about your opinion.
could you show me your sources specifically for Karma support for evidence?
Also no need for the hostility, you wouldnt be speaking like that in real life, theres more noticeable consequences for it
edit: (typo) added a 'c' to properly spell consequences
@@TyrantBrendorf really man? You made a video without doing any research at all? No actual data to back up your claim? It'd take 20 seconds. Open ug lol, search karma, build paths, press to show her as sup and click winrate. You're welcome.
I had a look, I understand that there is a lot of Malignance first items and their winrates are positive, I haven't been able to find any first item Imperials on my search.
I understand that you're telling me that first item Malignance has a positive winrate in multiple builds.
It's unfortunate that there wasn't any large sample size first item Imperial rushes to show the difference.
I'll end the conversation here
metasrc provides winrates by item, and while it recommends malignance as the first item for karma support, it also says imperial mandate (52%) and moonstone renewer (54%) have higher winrates. lolalytics also shows plenty of high elo (challenger/masters) players that don't use malignance, although there are also ones that do.
no
or u can just be like me and rush shurelyas XD
i used to rush shureliyas like 99% of the time when it was a mythic, awesome item