1:17:00 Indian nationalism isn't anti pak. Your ideas are dated . A new India has been taking shape since past decades. Indian natlsm today is rooted in civilisational cultural identity that celebrates thought and philosophical pluralism aptly codified in its 1947 constitution.
It’s very difficult for Pakistani to do honest research and getting rid of biases. Moreover since Pakistanis have not studied freedom movement their appreciation about joint Indian nationalism remain not understood. Since 99% of Pakistanis and Indians have same genes talking about Muslim nationalism have no meaning. If the real intentions was to have really separate nation for Muslims why leave one Pakistan in India and then blame India. As Asim Sajjad has said people of Pakistan are not ready. I also request Pakistanis particularly research associates to go through Indian text books. Let them tell how much it talks about Pakistan and Muslims. It is not a state policy perhaps Hindus do have feelings of feeling oppressed by Muslim rulers.
The basic difference between India and Pakistan is the difference in the religion followed by the majority. Hinduism respects other religions, does not indulge in proselytising, is open to questioning, has no commandments, no blasphemy, no apostasy etc. From religion, comes civilisational values. Now check Pakistan and you know the difference
Both Pakistan and Bangladesh both Muslim countries are in IMF. Whereas INDIA due to it’s educated and hardworking Hindu population is progressing towards prosperity. Thanks Jinnah for dividing INDIA
FYI. please note as 1941 census your Lahore city Lahore District population was City District Total: 632126. 1695375 Muslims: 418594. (66%). 1027772 (60%) Hindus: 161349. 284351 Sikhs: 30143 Jains: 1015 Christians: 20274 Others: 751 I didn’t find it feasible to calculate figure for Sikhs, Christians and others for whole of Lahore district.
Pakistanis must realise Pakistan split because Bengalis had a culture, whereas Pakistanis even today are without culture and history. No country can survive or thrive without cultural identity
There is a fundamental misunderstanding of situation here. 1. Secularism in India never existed - it was always appeasement politics that worked against Hindus. Hindus for the most part remained tolerant and ate it up until they could not and voted for Modi in 2014 and again in 2019. All religions were not equal in India. By law, a Muslim had more leeway to practice his religion and a Hindu did not. Please understand this. BJP only promises to make in a level playing field, not to discriminate against Muslims. 2. A vote for Modi is not just about religion issue, but also about the economic development. The youth is with him because he promises development and economic prosperity and he delivers. People were fed up about the fact that Congress could never make India into a developed country (or rather didnt want to) in 60 years after 1947 even when India they inherited had all the British Raj industrial base and a rudimentary infra and other countries like Japan (nuked twice), Korea and the likes got ahead of us. Modi promises to make India developed, not to make it a Hindu nation. Look at his promises today - "a developed India by 2047" - nowhere it says he's gonna make it into a Hindu nation. Youth votes for him not because of alleged Hindu supremacy but because of his economic polices and his pledge to being back India's civilisation glory. And BTW, an orthodox Hindu is not as useless and dangerous as an orthodox Islamic fundamentalist - there's a difference. One just minds his own business and make sure his interests are not being trampled on while the other wants to blow up the "kafir".
*10 Biggest Blunders made by Pakistan since Independence* 1)Formation of a country on the basis of religion is the biggest mistake made by the founders of Pakistan. 2)Second mistake was the name coined for the new country as Pakistan. There is Afghanistan for Afghans. There is China for Chinese people. There is Kazakhstan for Kazaki people. But there are on group or race called Pak or Pakis. The Sidhi, Baloch, Punjabi , Pushto and Bengali have their own language, culture, dresses and food habit. Tying them as a nation in the name of religion was not possible from the beginning. During united India , the revenue collection from East Bengal was less than that of West Bengal. The provinces like NWFP and Balochistan had very negligible revenue. The Sindh and Punjab provinces used have better revenue. But the revenue collection was better in Hindu and Sikh dominated areas in Punjab. In case of Sindh the revenue collection was better in cities like Karachi and Hyderabad . After formation of Pakistan there was crisis of revenue from the beginning. Pakistan had ambition to capture as much area as possible after partition. So it formed a huge Army to recapture the entire India. The cost of raising and managing such Army was enormous. Pakistan crumbled to manage such a huge Army. 3)The next problem for Pakistan was lack of democracy and respect for its leaders. Mohammad Ali Jinha could not get an ambulance during his last days to be shifted to the hospital. His PM Liyakat Alli khan tried his level best to stop all medical facilities to Jinha. He died under very difficult condition. Martial Law by Army Generals also ruined the civil and democratic institutions of Pakistan. From its inception Pakistan tried to survive on anti India slogans. Pakistan developed its ambition to capture Indian territory by any means. Jammu and Kashmir became the survival syndrome of Pakistan. Pakistan did not bother to improve its economy, agriculture, industries , education and health care. It depended on donations from Arab countries, USA, China and Turkey. 4)It used all the donations to build its Armed Forces. USA supported Pakistan and helped with advanced weapon systems. In 1947 Pak Army attacked Jammu and Kashmir and occupied 35% of the state. In 1965 Pakistan attacked J and K to capture it from India. It lost badly in the war. It lost some territory in Azad Kashmir and Punjab. 5)There was repression in east Pakistan on Bengali Muslims. Muzibur Rhaman the leader of Awami league was arrested and there was war with India in 1971. Bangladesh was liberated and Muzibur Rahman became the PM of Bangladesh. Zulfiqar Alli Bhutto the PM of Pakistan signed the Shimla Agreement. India returned all the prisoner of war to Pakistan. Pakistan started its nuclear bomb programme with the help of China. Zia ul Haque became the Army Chief of Pakistan and arrested PM Bhutto. Then he was charged with corruption and anti national activities. Bhutto was hanged in Pakistan. Zia ul Haque became the martial law dictator and started the doctrine of thousand cuts to India through terror activities. He sponsored terror activities in Punjab for Khalistan. 6)Pakistan became a terror state with the help of USA and Saudi Arab. Kashmir also came under terror activities. Zia ul Haque died in a plane crash. Democracy returned to Pakistan. But it was suffocated by Army again. 7)Pak Army sabotaged all peace process with India including the Lahore Bus Journey by PM of India Atal Bihari Vajpayee. Then there was Kargil attack by Pakistan. It lost the Kargil war. In between Pakistan also tested atomic weapons. It threatened India on any small issue to nuke . 8)Terrorism was sponsored by Pak army to damage India through Jihad in Kashmir. Pakistan sponsored dreaded terror groups in the name of Islam and Jihad. Pak PM Benazir Bhutto was eliminated by some terror group after her arrival in Pakistan. PM Nawaz Shariff was arrested and put in jail for some scandal. President Asif Zardari was arrested and put in jail. Army placed a puppet Government in Islamabad. Terror groups ruled Pakistan with Army. 9)Balochistan be came next victim of exploitation by Pakistan. Pakistan leased out some land from Gilgit to China. It started its terror hub in Muzafarabad. 10)India faced terror problems from Pakistan. But Pakistan suffered badly in economic front. Now Pakistan is a failed state. It has no money to survive. Count down has started for the collapse of Pakistan. It is a matter of time before the theocratic state and terror state of Pakistan collapse completely. *SuNaLa* !As I Live I Learn! 🙏🇮🇳🙏
Now the BJP government is doing the same thing in India with Hindu Ultranationalism, Hindutta, and persecution of Muslims with the new citizenship law to evict Muslims from India.
As far as teaching History in India is concerned, Anam is right, History is compulsorily taught in schools till the 10th or matriculation. Post that you need to opt for the subject as an Arts student for your graduation and further. She is also right that topics of history as a compulsion majorly stops at the independence of India with a few post-independence topics like the green revolution, 5-year plans etc. However, let me categorically state that our school and college history books never demonize 'muslims'! Even while teaching about invaders like Ghazni and Abdali, they are always categorized as Iranian and Afghan invaders. "Treacherous muslims and disloyal citizens left behind"...you may find these words in books written by biased historian or even parroted by ultra-nationalist, but I can bet my last cent you will never find these words in any text books taught in any Indian school or college!!
Thanks almighty Bangladesh has been saved from hybrid colonial setup of Pakistan in 1971. Otherwise Bangladesh would have been situation like as baluchistan or Afghanistan.
I'm someone from India, and I really like this show a lot. Kudos to everyone trying to get some versions of discourse going in a country slightly notorious in its reputation of tolerance (or lack thereof) towards open conversations. Just one thing to add would be on the Indian perspective for the '71 war. I believe the main reason was we couldn't fund millions of refugees, and it was cheaper to go to war with Pakistan than otherwise. Surprised that it didn't feature in the conversations you had in your travels in India. Good luck with future content 😀
I find Aasim's thinking about how Karnataka was lost by BJP and South India pushing back Indian Nationalism a fallcy. Nationalism was always there in the masses but was never evoked by any Indian leader unlike Jinnah. So if you find Indian Nationalism having a surge today it's ciz someone ( in this case BJP) has stirred the same beliefs in Hindus what Jinnah did long ago
You are completely wrong on South India and the north eastern Indian states . BJP alone does not define Indian nation . Indian nation , the concept, the reality is deep rooted among its citizens across length and breadth of India regardless of race, ethnicity, language, and any diverse factors .
State of india are based on sub naitionalism made on line of ethnicity language and etc but all guys stand together to believe in idea of india cauz together we r powerful and everyone knows that here in our states!! Its democratic plus gives freedom to follow and preserve your culture easily !! And if anyone have any prblm they can put thier idea forward by the means of democratic way not like pakistani via kashmir do to destabilize the region
Yes my home in northern side of west bengal in this area majority people they are migrated from Bangladesh including my family Even Assam in same story.
Blackhole could be for Pakistan what printing press was for Germany. Many thanks to Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy for setting up this beautiful where the students of Pakistan can learn real history otherwise the main stream is what we need to take with a pinch of salt.
BJP loss or Wins should not be the Pakistani issue. The reason for Pakistan being a rouge and failed state is because Pakistan 🇵🇰 always keep pointing on the issue of others, rather than looking into it's own problem.. India 🇮🇳 is functional and vibrant democracy so bringing any party to power is the choice of people...
I am a Bengali from India but my forefather are from east bengal. I saw the 1971 refugee flow in Tripura and heard horrific repression from the refugees about Pakistani army. In Tripura then population was 16 lakhs and received refugees more than 20 lanks. Rape and looting of bengali property by pakistani army in power, they treated bengali people as animals. Now see what India And Bangladesh economy than Pakistan. God is there. Pakistan need to change their intolerance towards minority. Muslim in India now is close to 20 % which was 9% during 1947. Mindset of Pakistani need to be more modern , come out of Koran, adopt modern way of living, give more liberal power to female population. Even Bangladeshi has changed. We want piece, there are many good people like you and co panelist but mullahs rule pakistan today.
This is a very encouraging seminar happening in Pakistan. Our people should know the people's history of different events happening each day. And this will be something that stronger the foundation of the federation in Pakistan, otherwise Pakistan's future seems very uncertain.
Most Pakistani intellectuals view India through their Islamic prism. They thought they knew everything about India. 1:16:45 The Mughals and other invaders didn't come to India with roses in their hand. Telling the raw truth is important even if its provocative. So it will never repeat. See how Jews tell their stories again and again in all formats.
I shall keep urging you to please do a show about the IMMEDIATE need for fundamental changes in Pakistan's school books. Hope some motivation comes from what is happening in your mentor Saudi Arabia. Here is something interesting I found in today's NYT. Saudi Arabia’s minister of education, Yousef al-Benyan described how Saudi Arabia has been overhauling all of its public schools and university curriculums to develop a work force of men and women who can compete in a post-oil age. Public school textbooks have been scrubbed to eliminate materials that promote intolerance of other faiths or subservience for women, and the government is doubling down on teacher training, all with the aim of “instilling technological proficiency alongside critical thinking, problem solving and analytical capabilities” to align the Saudi education system “with competitive international standards,” as a recent Oxford Business Group study put it. It has a long way to go, but compared with a decade ago, it constitutes an education revolution.
Bangladesh happened because West Pakistan never accepted East Pakistan as equals. East Pakistan leader Sheik Mujibur Rehman won the elections but he was arrested and put behind the bars because he was a Bangali and a dark person. How can a Bengali rule over the entire country. It was all because of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto who wanted to be the Prime Minister even after loosing the election to Sheik Mujibur Rehaman. The West Pakistani army killed over 3 million people in East Pakistan. And all those poor people were fleeing and coming into India. Over 10 million Bangali Muslims and Hindus from East Pakistan came as refugees to India. Indira Gandhi even went to United Nations and complained about the atrocities West Pakistan was doing in East Pakistan and those people were coming to India. It was only after that india helped Mukti Baini to fight against the cruel regime of West Pakistan over the poor Bengalis. India never started the 71 war. I think it was the 3rd of December 1971 when Pakistan attacked India and there after Pakistan surrendered. Pakistan Gen.Niazi surrendered to Indian Gen.Jagjit Singh Arora in Dhakka with 93,000 soldiers, and Bangladesh was born. India returned all the 93,000 Prisoners of War to Pakistan. If India wanted she could have bargained with Pakistan for POK in return of 93,000 prisoners but Indira Gandhi did not do anything like that. That same Bhutto then goes to United Nations and says ‘Indians are Dogs’. This is all in records. This should have been in your book and not beating around the bush. Be honest and truthful.
Very good discussion but the the discussion failed to explore the master pillars of the two ( three) nation theory. Hope next occasion will definitely strike the master pillar to show all the truths.
Anam, i dont know which Indian textbooks you have read. Every state has different curriculim. I studied the central curriculum in 70s upto 1980. It was re- emphasized all the while that Indian founding fathers saw us as an inclusive secular plurastic nation. The emphasis on interfaith harmony was shoved down our throat so much all the time. No book ever said anything derogatory about muslims at all. I saw the refugee camps where our mothers went to help. Situation was pathetic and horror stories from the Bengali women was heartwrenching.
There was a question about how can we have better relations between India and Pakistan. I feel we first need to accept the reality of each other and grant each other the right to govern their coutries as per their constitutions . If India is not happy with the treatment of minorities in Pakistan then we must allow the minorities to freely travel to India and grant them citizenship same goes for Pakistan wrt to the Muslim minority . Anyone who does not want to move need not , however after this exercise is this minority issue should never be brought up . There will of course be no redrawing of boundries . Bury Ghwas e hind and Akhand Bharat and live in peace .
whenever there is a discussion on india, the pakistani intellectuals speak as if to appease their populance they don't refer to the truth while in india even if the truth is brutal we talk about it, that is the reason when one listens to the indian side it is more in depth and true while in pak side its more shallow or far from truth, it will satify your ego but the time will come when the truth will hit you in te face and you won't know what hit you
Madam, very brave of you to even attempt this book. Seeds of Bangladeshi nationalism were laid the day Jinnah announced in Dhaka University that Urdu would be the only official language of Pakistan. Plus, pakistan state can never express regret for 1970-71 because they are afraid it would lead to a genocide investigation at the UN or ICJ. Lastly, the british cunningly used the naive muslim league & jinnah's ego to divide India to prevent the Soviet union/Russia eventually reaching the warm waters of the Indian Ocean.... something which almost happened when Afghanistan was grabbed by them.
In 1971, General AAK Niazi threatened that he would let loose his soldiers on the women of East Pakistan till the lineage or ethnicity of the Bangalees was changed,
I am amazed by the intellectual discussion, especially by the two brilliant panelists. I am originally from Bangladesh and now live in the US. I have two questions: 1. Why weren't impartial and compassionate thinkers like this lady in the 1970 -1971 debacle.? 2. Why these bright intellectuals are not at the helm of the nation, when Pakistan is in such dire straits? I have some answers. This lady and the gentleman have critical thinkers, precisely because they are Westernized, not Islamist, and thereby have progressive Muslim mindsets. Bangladeshis, including myself as I lost three close relatives being killed by Pakistan Army, suffered because of Pakistani atrocities (highly exaggerated by Bengalis), some racism, and economic disparity. I was a boy and I witnessed the dead bodies along the river killed by Pakistan Army and raped women being given sanctuary. Bengalis also killed Biharis and others, if not of the same proportion. I am sorry as a Muslim to say that Indian Army behaved much better in Bangladesh except that they took so many cars and Jeeps, not to mention military hardware left behind by Pakistan Army. Bangladesh became a reality only because of Pakistan and even though there were disparities, it was the Urdu-speaking Muslims, especially the Ismaili Shia community (Aga Khanis) who industrialized the rural backwater East Bengal into a viable province. Indian leaders during the Partition thought that East Bengal would not survive and eventually integrated into India. Nehru refused to provide housing to Hindu Bengalis coming to West Bengal as he thought one day they would go back. India's greatest surprise was that East Bengal became so developed and survived during the 1950s and especially during the 1960s. The US helps was also great. Besides, the Ismailis and other industrialists built industries like the Adamjee Jute Mill, the largest Jute Mill in the World. In Ayub Khan's time, it was industrializing very fast. Pakistan was second after Japan in Asia in economic development in the 1960s. After independence, these industries were nationalized and the economy collapsed and famine occurred with about a million dead. Partition was not the best solution. However, the arch-secular Jinnah was pushed to the wall by intransigence on the part of the Hindu right-wing politicians to come to a solution. If the partition were inevitable, then without Jinnah and Pakistan, there would not have been Bangladesh, as stated by the secessionist Leftist Maulana Bhashani of Bangladesh. When you see how Muslims are treated in India, now that all that Westernized Indian leaders and intellectuals are dead, you realize why Pakistan was created by Jinnah, the sole spokesman of Indian Muslims. Let all of us in Bangladesh, India, and Pakistan be progressive like other Western countries and let not past conquerors' mistakes be our obsession but let us praise the good things done by both Muslims and British in India in civilizing us all--both Muslims and Hindus. Compare pre-Muslim and pre-British India: Caste Racism, no good dress, no social interaction, Sutte, Noroboli (Human Sacrifice), the abject status of women, the poor state of education and science, primitive medical systems, etc, etc. We need both Western Civilizational standards and Sufi love and respect in every relationship and build ourselves and institutions that way. As a Sufi, let me end by saying that let us forgive and love each other. Only God Knows the Best.
Single reason of Bangladesh liberation is that Pakistanis are orthodox in religion but Bengalis are connected by literature only Communal man Jinnah ( not a religious man because a poke eater ) never understood it He wanted to impose Urdu & spark was ignited
Jinnah is responsible for Division of India and bhutto is responsible for separate of east pakistan . Please stop commenting history of east pakistan and war 1971.
We love Pakistan and we don’t mind having Urdu as our national language as it resembles sylheti language. We understand Pakistan halls diversity with different ethnicities so Urdu as a language can fit for all as a national language. The same way India national language is Hindi/English. We support Pakistan! It’s the corrupt leaders who are controlled by India are not allowing the both nations to merge again
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BJP lost mandate in Karnataka
bc of its misrule in the past few years That doesn't mean we support Pakistan narrative
Sare jahan ka dard inke jigar mein hai siwaye Uighar Muslim aur Pakistani awam ke !!
1:17:00 Indian nationalism isn't anti pak. Your ideas are dated . A new India has been taking shape since past decades. Indian natlsm today is rooted in civilisational cultural identity that celebrates thought and philosophical pluralism aptly codified in its 1947 constitution.
It’s very difficult for Pakistani to do honest research and getting rid of biases. Moreover since Pakistanis have not studied freedom movement their appreciation about joint Indian nationalism remain not understood. Since 99% of Pakistanis and Indians have same genes talking about Muslim nationalism have no meaning. If the real intentions was to have really separate nation for Muslims why leave one Pakistan in India and then blame India. As Asim Sajjad has said people of Pakistan are not ready. I also request Pakistanis particularly research associates to go through Indian text books. Let them tell how much it talks about Pakistan and Muslims. It is not a state policy perhaps Hindus do have feelings of feeling oppressed by Muslim rulers.
The basic difference between India and Pakistan is the difference in the religion followed by the majority. Hinduism respects other religions, does not indulge in proselytising, is open to questioning, has no commandments, no blasphemy, no apostasy etc. From religion, comes civilisational values. Now check Pakistan and you know the difference
Both Pakistan and Bangladesh both Muslim countries are in IMF. Whereas INDIA due to it’s educated and hardworking Hindu population is progressing towards prosperity. Thanks Jinnah for dividing INDIA
Facts are many but the truth is one, Bangladesh hasn't forgotten 1971.
FYI. please note as 1941 census your Lahore city Lahore District population was
City District
Total: 632126. 1695375
Muslims: 418594. (66%). 1027772 (60%)
Hindus: 161349. 284351
Sikhs: 30143
Jains: 1015
Christians: 20274
Others: 751
I didn’t find it feasible to calculate figure for Sikhs, Christians and others for whole of Lahore district.
Pakistanis must realise Pakistan split because Bengalis had a culture, whereas Pakistanis even today are without culture and history. No country can survive or thrive without cultural identity
There is a fundamental misunderstanding of situation here.
1. Secularism in India never existed - it was always appeasement politics that worked against Hindus. Hindus for the most part remained tolerant and ate it up until they could not and voted for Modi in 2014 and again in 2019. All religions were not equal in India. By law, a Muslim had more leeway to practice his religion and a Hindu did not. Please understand this. BJP only promises to make in a level playing field, not to discriminate against Muslims.
2. A vote for Modi is not just about religion issue, but also about the economic development. The youth is with him because he promises development and economic prosperity and he delivers. People were fed up about the fact that Congress could never make India into a developed country (or rather didnt want to) in 60 years after 1947 even when India they inherited had all the British Raj industrial base and a rudimentary infra and other countries like Japan (nuked twice), Korea and the likes got ahead of us. Modi promises to make India developed, not to make it a Hindu nation.
Look at his promises today - "a developed India by 2047" - nowhere it says he's gonna make it into a Hindu nation.
Youth votes for him not because of alleged Hindu supremacy but because of his economic polices and his pledge to being back India's civilisation glory.
And BTW, an orthodox Hindu is not as useless and dangerous as an orthodox Islamic fundamentalist - there's a difference. One just minds his own business and make sure his interests are not being trampled on while the other wants to blow up the "kafir".
*10 Biggest Blunders made by Pakistan since Independence*
1)Formation of a country on the basis of religion is the biggest mistake made by the founders of Pakistan.
2)Second mistake was the name coined for the new country as Pakistan. There is Afghanistan for Afghans. There is China for Chinese people. There is Kazakhstan for Kazaki people. But there are on group or race called Pak or Pakis. The Sidhi, Baloch, Punjabi , Pushto and Bengali have their own language, culture, dresses and food habit. Tying them as a nation in the name of religion was not possible from the beginning. During united India , the revenue collection from East Bengal was less than that of West Bengal. The provinces like NWFP and Balochistan had very negligible revenue. The Sindh and Punjab provinces used have better revenue. But the revenue collection was better in Hindu and Sikh dominated areas in Punjab. In case of Sindh the revenue collection was better in cities like Karachi and Hyderabad . After formation of Pakistan there was crisis of revenue from the beginning. Pakistan had ambition to capture as much area as possible after partition. So it formed a huge Army to recapture the entire India. The cost of raising and managing such Army was enormous. Pakistan crumbled to manage such a huge Army.
3)The next problem for Pakistan was lack of democracy and respect for its leaders. Mohammad Ali Jinha could not get an ambulance during his last days to be shifted to the hospital. His PM Liyakat Alli khan tried his level best to stop all medical facilities to Jinha. He died under very difficult condition. Martial Law by Army Generals also ruined the civil and democratic institutions of Pakistan. From its inception Pakistan tried to survive on anti India slogans. Pakistan developed its ambition to capture Indian territory by any means. Jammu and Kashmir became the survival syndrome of Pakistan. Pakistan did not bother to improve its economy, agriculture, industries , education and health care. It depended on donations from Arab countries, USA, China and Turkey.
4)It used all the donations to build its Armed Forces. USA supported Pakistan and helped with advanced weapon systems.
In 1947 Pak Army attacked Jammu and Kashmir and occupied 35% of the state.
In 1965 Pakistan attacked J and K to capture it from India. It lost badly in the war. It lost some territory in Azad Kashmir and Punjab.
5)There was repression in east Pakistan on Bengali Muslims. Muzibur Rhaman the leader of Awami league was arrested and there was war with India in 1971. Bangladesh was liberated and Muzibur Rahman became the PM of Bangladesh.
Zulfiqar Alli Bhutto the PM of Pakistan signed the Shimla Agreement. India returned all the prisoner of war to Pakistan. Pakistan started its nuclear bomb programme with the help of China. Zia ul Haque became the Army Chief of Pakistan and arrested PM Bhutto. Then he was charged with corruption and anti national activities. Bhutto was hanged in Pakistan. Zia ul Haque became the martial law dictator and started the doctrine of thousand cuts to India through terror activities. He sponsored terror activities in Punjab for Khalistan.
6)Pakistan became a terror state with the help of USA and Saudi Arab. Kashmir also came under terror activities. Zia ul Haque died in a plane crash. Democracy returned to Pakistan. But it was suffocated by Army again.
7)Pak Army sabotaged all peace process with India including the Lahore Bus Journey by PM of India Atal Bihari Vajpayee. Then there was Kargil attack by Pakistan. It lost the Kargil war. In between Pakistan also tested atomic weapons. It threatened India on any small issue to nuke .
8)Terrorism was sponsored by Pak army to damage India through Jihad in Kashmir. Pakistan sponsored dreaded terror groups in the name of Islam and Jihad. Pak PM Benazir Bhutto was eliminated by some terror group after her arrival in Pakistan.
PM Nawaz Shariff was arrested and put in jail for some scandal.
President Asif Zardari was arrested and put in jail. Army placed a puppet Government in Islamabad. Terror groups ruled Pakistan with Army.
9)Balochistan be came next victim of exploitation by Pakistan.
Pakistan leased out some land from Gilgit to China. It started its terror hub in Muzafarabad.
10)India faced terror problems from Pakistan. But Pakistan suffered badly in economic front. Now Pakistan is a failed state. It has no money to survive.
Count down has started for the collapse of Pakistan. It is a matter of time before the theocratic state and terror state of Pakistan collapse completely.
*SuNaLa*
!As I Live I Learn!
🙏🇮🇳🙏
Now the BJP government is doing the same thing in India with Hindu Ultranationalism, Hindutta, and persecution of Muslims with the new citizenship law to evict Muslims from India.
Creation of Bangladesh has disproved the two nation theory practically.
As far as teaching History in India is concerned, Anam is right, History is compulsorily taught in schools till the 10th or matriculation. Post that you need to opt for the subject as an Arts student for your graduation and further. She is also right that topics of history as a compulsion majorly stops at the independence of India with a few post-independence topics like the green revolution, 5-year plans etc. However, let me categorically state that our school and college history books never demonize 'muslims'! Even while teaching about invaders like Ghazni and Abdali, they are always categorized as Iranian and Afghan invaders. "Treacherous muslims and disloyal citizens left behind"...you may find these words in books written by biased historian or even parroted by ultra-nationalist, but I can bet my last cent you will never find these words in any text books taught in any Indian school or college!!
“Education “ is a great leveller . Indians should focus & prioritise on attaining 💯 % literacy & poverty alleviation
for pakistan, relation with india is compulsory but for india, it's optional.
Thanks almighty Bangladesh has been saved from hybrid colonial setup of Pakistan in 1971. Otherwise Bangladesh would have been situation like as baluchistan or Afghanistan.
I'm someone from India, and I really like this show a lot. Kudos to everyone trying to get some versions of discourse going in a country slightly notorious in its reputation of tolerance (or lack thereof) towards open conversations. Just one thing to add would be on the Indian perspective for the '71 war. I believe the main reason was we couldn't fund millions of refugees, and it was cheaper to go to war with Pakistan than otherwise. Surprised that it didn't feature in the conversations you had in your travels in India. Good luck with future content 😀
I find Aasim's thinking about how Karnataka was lost by BJP and South India pushing back Indian Nationalism a fallcy. Nationalism was always there in the masses but was never evoked by any Indian leader unlike Jinnah. So if you find Indian Nationalism having a surge today it's ciz someone ( in this case BJP) has stirred the same beliefs in Hindus what Jinnah did long ago
You are completely wrong on South India and the north eastern Indian states . BJP alone does not define Indian nation . Indian nation , the concept, the reality is deep rooted among its citizens across length and breadth of India regardless of race, ethnicity, language, and any diverse factors .
State of india are based on sub naitionalism made on line of ethnicity language and etc but all guys stand together to believe in idea of india cauz together we r powerful and everyone knows that here in our states!! Its democratic plus gives freedom to follow and preserve your culture easily !! And if anyone have any prblm they can put thier idea forward by the means of democratic way not like pakistani via kashmir do to destabilize the region
Yes my home in northern side of west bengal in this area majority people they are migrated from Bangladesh including my family Even Assam in same story.
Ms Zakaria,kudos for your brilliant and in-depth perspective!
Blackhole could be for Pakistan what printing press was for Germany. Many thanks to Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy for setting up this beautiful where the students of Pakistan can learn real history otherwise the main stream is what we need to take with a pinch of salt.
Pakistan has to get rid of their obsession with Kashmir. Then only there's a hope that they will progress.
You guys must remember that India is a secular democratic nation while Pakistan is a Islamic Hybrid regime .
BJP loss or Wins should not be the Pakistani issue. The reason for Pakistan being a rouge and failed state is because Pakistan 🇵🇰 always keep pointing on the issue of others, rather than looking into it's own problem.. India 🇮🇳 is functional and vibrant democracy so bringing any party to power is the choice of people...
Ask Ishtiyaq Ahmed Sir to do a critical review on this book.. Shukriya..
*🕉️🚩 🇮🇳 INDIA 🇮🇳 🚩🕉️*
Keep working on past, we are gonna ride future ❤
I am a Bengali from India but my forefather are from east bengal. I saw the 1971 refugee flow in Tripura and heard horrific repression from the refugees about Pakistani army. In Tripura then population was 16 lakhs and received refugees more than 20 lanks. Rape and looting of bengali property by pakistani army in power, they treated bengali people as animals. Now see what India And Bangladesh economy than Pakistan. God is there. Pakistan need to change their intolerance towards minority. Muslim in India now is close to 20 % which was 9% during 1947. Mindset of Pakistani need to be more modern , come out of Koran, adopt modern way of living, give more liberal power to female population. Even Bangladeshi has changed. We want piece, there are many good people like you and co panelist but mullahs rule pakistan today.
This is a very encouraging seminar happening in Pakistan. Our people should know the people's history of different events happening each day. And this will be something that stronger the foundation of the federation in Pakistan, otherwise Pakistan's future seems very uncertain.
Most Pakistani intellectuals view India through their Islamic prism. They thought they knew everything about India. 1:16:45 The Mughals and other invaders didn't come to India with roses in their hand. Telling the raw truth is important even if its provocative. So it will never repeat.
See how Jews tell their stories again and again in all formats.
She is the biggest think tank in Pakistan... We love you mam..
Appreciate her research and a beautiful conversation. Really wonderful work. Keep writing miss .
There are fundamental differences between Abrahamic religions and Sanatana.
I shall keep urging you to please do a show about the IMMEDIATE need for fundamental changes in Pakistan's school books. Hope some motivation comes from what is happening in your mentor Saudi Arabia.
Here is something interesting I found in today's NYT.
Saudi Arabia’s minister of education, Yousef al-Benyan described how Saudi Arabia has been overhauling all of its public schools and university curriculums to develop a work force of men and women who can compete in a post-oil age.
Public school textbooks have been scrubbed to eliminate materials that promote intolerance of other faiths or subservience for women, and the government is doubling down on teacher training, all with the aim of “instilling technological proficiency alongside critical thinking, problem solving and analytical capabilities” to align the Saudi education system “with competitive international standards,” as a recent Oxford Business Group study put it. It has a long way to go, but compared with a decade ago, it constitutes an education revolution.
Good discussion.
Appreciated from India.
love from Bangladesh.....
Great conversation! Much appreciated. The book is available here. Ordered.
Wow,Anam zakariya is here,great historian
You need to see the films of Rithvik Ghatak to understand the pain of 1947 partition in Bengal.
Bangladesh happened because West Pakistan never accepted East Pakistan as equals. East Pakistan leader Sheik Mujibur Rehman won the elections but he was arrested and put behind the bars because he was a Bangali and a dark person. How can a Bengali rule over the entire country. It was all because of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto who wanted to be the Prime Minister even after loosing the election to Sheik Mujibur Rehaman. The West Pakistani army killed over 3 million people in East Pakistan. And all those poor people were fleeing and coming into India. Over 10 million Bangali Muslims and Hindus from East Pakistan came as refugees to India. Indira Gandhi even went to United Nations and complained about the atrocities West Pakistan was doing in East Pakistan and those people were coming to India. It was only after that india helped Mukti Baini to fight against the cruel regime of West Pakistan over the poor Bengalis. India never started the 71 war. I think it was the 3rd of December 1971 when Pakistan attacked India and there after Pakistan surrendered. Pakistan Gen.Niazi surrendered to Indian Gen.Jagjit Singh Arora in Dhakka with 93,000 soldiers, and Bangladesh was born. India returned all the 93,000 Prisoners of War to Pakistan. If India wanted she could have bargained with Pakistan for POK in return of 93,000 prisoners but Indira Gandhi did not do anything like that. That same Bhutto then goes to United Nations and says ‘Indians are Dogs’. This is all in records. This should have been in your book and not beating around the bush. Be honest and truthful.
Sir Aasim teaches us at NIPS ❤
Brilliant discussion. Very bold discussion.
Good Anam and AAsam
Very good discussion but the the discussion failed to explore the master pillars of the two ( three) nation theory. Hope next occasion will definitely strike the master pillar to show all the truths.
Nice to see that subscribers of The Black Hole are increasing rapidly.
Anam, i dont know which Indian textbooks you have read. Every state has different curriculim. I studied the central curriculum in 70s upto 1980. It was re- emphasized all the while that Indian founding fathers saw us as an inclusive secular plurastic nation. The emphasis on interfaith harmony was shoved down our throat so much all the time. No book ever said anything derogatory about muslims at all. I saw the refugee camps where our mothers went to help. Situation was pathetic and horror stories from the Bengali women was heartwrenching.
Refreshing and honest discussion
There was a question about how can we have better relations between India and Pakistan. I feel we first need to accept the reality of each other and grant each other the right to govern their coutries as per their constitutions . If India is not happy with the treatment of minorities in Pakistan then we must allow the minorities to freely travel to India and grant them citizenship same goes for Pakistan wrt to the Muslim minority . Anyone who does not want to move need not , however after this exercise is this minority issue should never be brought up . There will of course be no redrawing of boundries . Bury Ghwas e hind and Akhand Bharat and live in peace .
Indian Muslims peeche nahe rehgaye… humare saath hai
In 71 india occupied bd than why they vacated later?
I don't agree with you 90 percent is bengali .
Dr. Ishtiaq Ahmed can make a critical review over your thesis....
Madam and Sir, partition looks like a hornet nest and is still playing it out.
Watching from India 😊
whenever there is a discussion on india, the pakistani intellectuals speak as if to appease their populance they don't refer to the truth while in india even if the truth is brutal we talk about it, that is the reason when one listens to the indian side it is more in depth and true while in pak side its more shallow or far from truth, it will satify your ego but the time will come when the truth will hit you in te face and you won't know what hit you
There is bangol in India, they are bengoli but Indian. Not Bangladeshi.
Yeh bahut sunder hain😮
pakistan was suppose to be union of states and not only one state as it was made in 1948
👍👍👍
She is cute ❤😊
Instead of talking about past and comparing with india just try to improve yourself then Pakistan would be more better
Madam, very brave of you to even attempt this book. Seeds of Bangladeshi nationalism were laid the day Jinnah announced in Dhaka University that Urdu would be the only official language of Pakistan. Plus, pakistan state can never express regret for 1970-71 because they are afraid it would lead to a genocide investigation at the UN or ICJ. Lastly, the british cunningly used the naive muslim league & jinnah's ego to divide India to prevent the Soviet union/Russia eventually reaching the warm waters of the Indian Ocean.... something which almost happened when Afghanistan was grabbed by them.
Please do not use Urdu as many of the viewers may not understand Urdu.
In 1971, General AAK Niazi threatened that he would let loose his soldiers on the women of East Pakistan till the lineage or ethnicity of the Bangalees was changed,
I am amazed by the intellectual discussion, especially by the two brilliant panelists. I am originally from Bangladesh and now live in the US. I have two questions: 1. Why weren't impartial and compassionate thinkers like this lady in the 1970 -1971 debacle.? 2. Why these bright intellectuals are not at the helm of the nation, when Pakistan is in such dire straits?
I have some answers. This lady and the gentleman have critical thinkers, precisely because they are Westernized, not Islamist, and thereby have progressive Muslim mindsets. Bangladeshis, including myself as I lost three close relatives being killed by Pakistan Army, suffered because of Pakistani atrocities (highly exaggerated by Bengalis), some racism, and economic disparity. I was a boy and I witnessed the dead bodies along the river killed by Pakistan Army and raped women being given sanctuary. Bengalis also killed Biharis and others, if not of the same proportion. I am sorry as a Muslim to say that Indian Army behaved much better in Bangladesh except that they took so many cars and Jeeps, not to mention military hardware left behind by Pakistan Army.
Bangladesh became a reality only because of Pakistan and even though there were disparities, it was the Urdu-speaking Muslims, especially the Ismaili Shia community (Aga Khanis) who industrialized the rural backwater East Bengal into a viable province. Indian leaders during the Partition thought that East Bengal would not survive and eventually integrated into India. Nehru refused to provide housing to Hindu Bengalis coming to West Bengal as he thought one day they would go back. India's greatest surprise was that East Bengal became so developed and survived during the 1950s and especially during the 1960s. The US helps was also great. Besides, the Ismailis and other industrialists built industries like the Adamjee Jute Mill, the largest Jute Mill in the World. In Ayub Khan's time, it was industrializing very fast. Pakistan was second after Japan in Asia in economic development in the 1960s. After independence, these industries were nationalized and the economy collapsed and famine occurred with about a million dead.
Partition was not the best solution. However, the arch-secular Jinnah was pushed to the wall by intransigence on the part of the Hindu right-wing politicians to come to a solution. If the partition were inevitable, then without Jinnah and Pakistan, there would not have been Bangladesh, as stated by the secessionist Leftist Maulana Bhashani of Bangladesh. When you see how Muslims are treated in India, now that all that Westernized Indian leaders and intellectuals are dead, you realize why Pakistan was created by Jinnah, the sole spokesman of Indian Muslims.
Let all of us in Bangladesh, India, and Pakistan be progressive like other Western countries and let not past conquerors' mistakes be our obsession but let us praise the good things done by both Muslims and British in India in civilizing us all--both Muslims and Hindus. Compare pre-Muslim and pre-British India: Caste Racism, no good dress, no social interaction, Sutte, Noroboli (Human Sacrifice), the abject status of women, the poor state of education and science, primitive medical systems, etc, etc.
We need both Western Civilizational standards and Sufi love and respect in every relationship and build ourselves and institutions that way. As a Sufi, let me end by saying that let us forgive and love each other. Only God Knows the Best.
Single reason of Bangladesh liberation is that Pakistanis are orthodox in religion but Bengalis are connected by literature only
Communal man Jinnah ( not a religious man because a poke eater ) never understood it
He wanted to impose Urdu & spark was ignited
Jinnah is responsible for Division of India and bhutto is responsible for separate of east pakistan . Please stop commenting history of east pakistan and war 1971.
We love Pakistan and we don’t mind having Urdu as our national language as it resembles sylheti language. We understand Pakistan halls diversity with different ethnicities so Urdu as a language can fit for all as a national language. The same way India national language is Hindi/English. We support Pakistan! It’s the corrupt leaders who are controlled by India are not allowing the both nations to merge again