Q: Do you guys know a good way to manage manpower and attrition? A: 3 day sieges haha Notable policy is Divine, Espionage an additional 20% siege ability.
I had a run as Utrecht (NI) and I memed siege ability really hard with Offensive, Inno, Divine and Espionage. Managed to beat both the protestant league with a massive ottomans as well as the catholics one after the other just because of that
Defensive + Humanist for -50% LA, and if you really hate attrition, you can then either take Exploration + Quality for -75%, or I guess just take Quantity for -60%. Parliamentism has a bonus that gives -10% land attrition, and it caps at 80%, so how much you want to remove attrition is up to you. It's more important in regions like India or Africa where everything is a jungle or desert giving you attrition at all times.
My next planned campaign is going to be: tengri (orthodox syncretic) Smolensk Theocracy for 90+ siege ability. Testing revealed that three day sieges should be easy :) (Starting as Oirat, considering, converting and releasing Smolensk, then get enough reform progress as a tribe to reform into Theocracy)
For a Teutonic conquest game, I really enjoy admin/espionage/divine. I really enjoy the 3 policies those have. +20%siege ability, +20% manpower in truth faith provinces and the extra reduces corruption and spy defence between esp/admin.
Dont think I will typically play it but Inno, espionage and offensive seem to give really nice policies and its spread in each category. You get +1 diplomat and 10% spynetwork construction with espionage and offensive, +1 diplomat and -25% stab cost with espionage + inno and +1 siege and +10% siege ability with inno+offensive.
it seems like this combination of policies is trying its hardest to allow you not pick diplo ideas while still going for a fast WC game. Those 3 ideas with admin + influence as your first 5 ideas might be almost as good of a setup for WC as using the usual diplo, influence and admin + offensive in your first 4 ideas. There is also a silly envoy travel time reduction combo possible that brings back your diplomats in 1 day. Tier 2 petra, with theocracy reform and influence ideas give -100% envoy travel time and anything above 100% brings back your diplomats in 1 day so needing many free diplomats for peacedeals in your conquest spree might be a lot less neccesary in this patch. And if its intended that makes influence a vital ideagroup and diplo less neccesary.
note that im not completely sold on it, diplo ideas still has -20 warcost reduction and +2 relationship slots (basically you yoink more lands and have more vassals/allies) that you cant replace with other ideas and the policies of diplo ideas are great too for buffing your dip rep, number of dip slots and give extra diplomats. Regardless I do really like that in this patch there is more variable gameplay styles that are actually good and viable.
If you look at your idea choices through Budget Monk's lens of "gap closers" (great video btw), INNO+ESP+ARISTO and their combined policies are perhaps the strongest trio for SP. Innovative ideas might be something to keep just for the free three policies and advisor costs. Look at what the three idea sets nets you: Siege -- at least 10% siege ability and a granted pip +3 diplomats 20% AE reduction -10% tech cost -10% mil tech cost 35% advisor costs and +1 advisor -0.2 corruption reduction, to tank the OE -20% Cav Cost; +30 Cav Combat (including Aristo/Esp policy) -25% General Cost 15% manpower -5% dev cost Nearly the centralization edict nationwide for free -25% Stab Cost (Inno/Esp policy) +20% Production Efficiency (Inno/Aristo policy)
Since when does aristocratic give 15% manpower? Also btw, having a spy network reduces the amount of generated AE, so useful for preventing big boys from joining the coalition.
If you're playing a theocracy, there's also a valid argument for taking divine ideas after espionage for the policy 20% siege ability and reduced leader recruitment cost. if you can reach max professionalism faster, that's another 20% siege ability
I'm not a fan of being a theocracy, but that siege ability... May be worth taking divine ideas early, so you keep it after swapping to a better government type. Though, the patch changed a bunch of reforms, so theocracy may be better now.
@@darthimperious1594 Theocracy has always been "decent" It really depends if you play Singleplayer or MP tho. Republic is the strongest for MP, simply because more monarch points means more devving means win, (and it has some morale buff if i remember correctly). Whilst Monarchy would be best in SP because of absolutism, Depends if you play tall or wide tho. And Theocracy is just.. Good tbh, Funnily enough i find myself getting better rulers as a theocrat than as a monarch. It has morale, it has pretty decent economic reforms etc. But yeah you do not need to stay theocracy. just switch to it get divine ideas switch back. 100 Govt reform cost. Or play teutons and form a horde instead.
@@sanderleander3367 theocracy is actually the best government for mp %10 morale %5 shock damage %10 morale damage received there is also mission on the high seas which gives all the good navy stuff not to mention people always switch to theocracies mp to take divine ideas at some point anyway. also japanese theocracy is bonkers they get %5 discipline %5 infantry combat %10 merc manpower plus all the things i already listed.
with teutonic order its so strong add in horde ideas once u unlock the mission with divine for 20% siege ability and the +50 flank ability. might sound weird but with the teutonic horde i killing 100k ottomen stacks in 1688 with 40k stacks doing 5-8 k damage per tick and only taking 700-1300 per tick
I've been thinking about it lately. Had to fabricate fast on multiple nations and my diplomats and spy network construction speed became a bottleneck around 1550. So yeah, espionage make sense. Also, on that note... Devs are really seem to be monitoring the meta and tweaking ideas to find a balance. Sometimes there is a lagging measure of old habits from the community.
Made great use of it for policies with horde and aristocratic in my Ayuthaha -> Lan Xang -> Siam -> Tibet -> Koshuud -> Yuan run where I experimented to get the ultimate cav army. :) 83% cav cost reduction, 90% cav combat with +1 cav fire. :)
it's actually really old way back, before the Influence nerf, Espionage-Aristocratic Policy gave you +20% cav combat, in addition to the (back then) +10% cav combat from aristocratic This only changed when they nerfed Influence and subsequently began buffing Espionage a little with every update starting with 1.31 Espionage-Aristocratic had its 20% cav combat halved to 10%
Not gonna lie, when you play a theocracy, espionage is pretty much a must have around the mid game. Just having Divine, Espionage and Offensive ideas gives you a 50% Siege ability modifier, assuming you use the Divine/Espionage policy. In other words, even without cannons, your siege ticks will rarely exceed 25 days until the late game when the AI has level 6 or 8 forts everywhere, which is pretty insane. Plus, the aggessive expansion impact is a really nice way to bridge the period between 1550 and 1610, where taking provinces causes a lot of AE, which can be nicely mitigated by the -20% modifer. On top of that, if you have a country you really don't want in a coalition, you can jus thit them with a spy network and decrease your AE impact on them by 30% (at 100% network) which basically means you ahve a targeted 50% AE reduction modifier.
Because they were objectively terrible before they were buffed? Before the patch there was no siege ability, no AE reduction, no vassalisation acceptance, and the advisor cost and corruption reduction modifiers were smaller. Even currently I am not sold on the idea group, it's obviously much, much better but I still think the other groups are better, but there's no question it used to be terrible
@@alotofswaghaver The first iteration of the idea group, the one that spawned the memes, didn't. The original Espionage ideas needed two major buffs before becoming decent, they were just so bad
I concur with your analysis. I went Sweden first game. Innovative into Quality into Espionage and I'm thinking Offensive next. Espionage has made sieging Europe down so much easier, between my 45% ICR, 10% discipline, maxed army tradition and then the siege ability modifiers. You can base race anyone and if they try to fight you, they die. And that sweet sweet advisor cost has let me permanently run L4 advisors soon L5 after I got BI and then moved trade port.
Wow they added stuff I didn't even know was in the idea set. I just finished a Holy Horde campaign where I stacked as much siege ability as I could. If I had known Espionage had that siege ability on the spy network construction I would have had absolutely taken it and gotten 90% siege power.
Espionage was always good. It's hated for no reason even though it gives you AE reduction, helps you get more siege ability and with diplomacy. Now it got improved so it's even better. So many people get salty about coalitions but never consider taking the most obvious modifier for AE reduction. It's an absolutely crucial pick when you plan on expanding into HRE.
@@gas132 Damn, you're right I remember I always used to pick influence as France and I couldn't remember why. But anyway, yes. AE reduction is important
@@TheRealXartaX Yeah, you can do that if you really wanna micromanage war. But as you said, sometimes it's just nice to annex 3 entire states of northern Italy as France and then chill with colonialism for a bit like you said, so yeah. I think AE reduction is a real quality of life idea, especially if you pick up the pope status for another 20+ AE reduction. Religious is important for that, which I think is another underrated idea group
The people complaining about coalitions and the people mocking Espionage shouldn't be the same people. Espionage was decent before, but not great. Now it's good. Still not great, but definitely not an idea group to mock anymore.
Espionage was essential for WC in dharma that corruption was brutal. Espionage, defensive, and administrative, ideas for that .6 yearly corruption reduction. (Thank god corruption reduction was capped at 1)
Winter Palace also increases vassalization acceptance, so it must be really nice to pick espionage as Russia/Novgorod/Muscovy (or the ones who own the monument)
Also Espionage + Horde ideas give you policy for extra 10% cav combat ability and 50% cav flanking ability, which is very powerful for already broken Teutonic Horde for example.
Monk will you consider doing "how to own as Athens"? As the foremost expert on the Byzantium and Knights starts I feel you would have good insight on Athens.
I tend to always go offensive, quality, trade and economic ( my logic is create a crazy op military and then attempt to gain the ability to fund it) this seems a lot more thought out and I think will try this
I’d argue that to maximize early game potential you take it before diplo ideas. The claims reduce the admin and AE for the provinces since they are going to be conquest wars. That also saves diplo, and the AE reduction is far better than improved relations.
not to mention that in the early game province war score is not much of an issue - you likely wouldn't be taking that much land anyway, due to the nasty, nasty AE and caolitions which you can't reliably handle early on.
Not in any way trying to claim that it is a powerful meta at all, but I think this patch's changes to Naval ideas - specifically the 100% barrage cost reduction - have actually made the way Marines seemed to have been conceptually designed originally into actually being viable now. Innovative - Espionage - Offensive - Naval - Maritime - combined with a flagship that has +1 fleet movement speed / +1 blockade impact on siege / -33% disembark time You will have super fast sieges (+40-60% minimum), +4 base added to sieges plus an additional +2 (1 from admiral, 1 from general) guaranteed minimum, without using cannons, 8 day landing time with 4-5 day siege ticks, and a free barrage on day one. Your ships will all have +2 fleet movement speed, and be seriously undamageable. And you won't even need to use a single point of manpower for it, it's all sailors. Sure, this only applies to coastal forts, but you will have high innovativeness, army tradition, and professionalism, to make up for the lack of other buffs, and your manpower is not being used for early sieges. Again, not for every country, but if you're a naval power, and gonna make the most of it, this actually seems viable for the first time ever. Obviously not god-tier, but definitely viable.
In my last run as cologne Espionage was the first Idea group that I took and that run was amazing, formed Germany without many complications. I don't enjoy as much meta gaming so I did
Also getting a lot of rebel support efficiency means that you can effectively weaken any nation without going to war, especially if you have a strong economy and a strong military to support those rebels, because the rebels you support gain the modifiers you have,like morale, discipline, combat ability i think also matters. it is also funny seeing a buffed stack of rebels kill half of a nations's army because you are also buffed.
i like to do a lot of expanding all the time no matter what, so i always end up getting espionage at some point because that -20% AE impact is amazing for my playstyle
what ideas and with what order would you actually recommend. Because I suppose - when you are colonial you need exploration+expansion (or diplo+expansion when Norway), then there is usually time to make some military one (offensive). Usually third spot is good for Humanist, but you are in 4th spot now which starts to be late.... then there is 5th and I feel it starts to be really late for admin and innovative
Also don't forget about the amount of cav combat ability and other cav centric buffs it gives when match up with horde ideas or aristocratic ideas. Horses go clap clap
In isolation, those are great modifiers. Here is my question though when I put it into context because the game forces you to choose one group over another: you'd want to pick espionage early because it's only a great group if you can justify using it early (as in first 3 picks). Great modifiers, but isnt going diplo before espionage strictly better? Siege is nice, but you have offensive - is maximizing siege ability early with level 2 forts really that good (given the context that you could have other ideas instead)? I'd rather have more stuff and more money = more cannons. Some short points on that: I think people like the ae reduction a lot, but expanding smartly plus diplo ideas seems much better for handling coalitions than a flat bonus. The 2nd diplomat from diplo on the other hand helps so much early game. And then talking later in the campaign, I'd rather have/pick humanist for example. But I'm not a good player, let me know why I'm wrong. The diplo plus advisor cost looks tasty, but I'd still take 2 diplomats over that I think. Speaking strictly optimizing the game of course. I always go for at least one role play idea for fun - you can do most things with most idea picks. Inno offensive gives more siege, so of you want to optimize there, go inno instead for better overall bonuses? The idea group espionage to me seems redundant, always the 2nd best pick. And don't get me wrong, it's not bad, I'd just rather go something else all the time. Given in the context of a normal game I mean. Looking at this another way: So out of the 4 best idea groups you want to get fast, 2 are diplo already and you want them asap. I also personally like my influence asap (pick 3-6 maybe). I'd rather take religious, humanist, even divine/horde or aristocratic (horses rule) as an early "fun" pick just because they offer more all around quality modifiers and are not just "diplo ideas minus". Diplo plus influence plus espionage just seems like a super weird, diplo heavy pick to me. Maybe this is me being not an s tier player, but don't you use diplo points to dev institutions? If espionage was a military idea btw, I'd be sold maybe. And yes, the policies, but there are some great other policies you could get your hands on - seems more like a meme thing to me than truly optimized gameplay if you put heavy emphasis on policies - in general, not just espionage. Let's theory craft here, in order: we pick espionage 1st, offensive 2nd, admin 3rd, influence 4th, diplo 5th perhaps? Why not just go diplo first instead then, what does espionage have over that? Then go for the 2nd pick religious as a very strong but optional pick e.g. which gives you completely different options and abilities. That's my whole point. Great modifiers, but why not just go diplo instead and don't hurt your progression by picking this specific "luxury" idea group that actually prevents you from getting the good stuff fast and seems redundant if you get diplo anyway. And don't get me wrong, 10% siege + spy network construction is a great argument for a late espionage pick imo, but I'm talking early here. I also get that you sort of have a hybrid that gives you some benefits from offensive and diplo, but you want those anyways, so redundancy again. If you go for a role play build and you want economic and trade, yes, get espionage to get 2 in 1. but if you put artificial restricions on your game, then you can justify anything. I'd love to see this put into practice by a master, please change my mind. And I'll try this out and perhaps change my mind myself :). I'd also love to see a direct comparison with other hot picks and why espionage is better, namely religious, the new aristo, divine, horde stuff, let's throw in humanist or even things like quality (with inno combined for example)
If you're going on the big campaign like he's talking about, Siege Ability is arguably the single best (military) modifier you can get, no matter the stage of the game. It starts out great and only gets better. The Otto SA Age Ability is one of the main reasons you want to avoid fighting them early unless your start demands it (Byzantium for example) or they're vulnerable. I would go so far as to recommend Espionage, Admin, Offensive as your first three ideas, precise order depending on your power availability. If you're playing seriously you're only picking fights you can win, and win them quickly; so most of your time at war is going to be sitting around, waiting for sieges to finish. The sooner it's done, the sooner you can reap the rewards of your conquest and the sooner you can move on to the next war. If it weren't for the province warscore cost, I'd even put Espionage on an even level with Diplo. In fact I would argue that your logic about Espionage being better later works even moreso with Diplo. You don't need as many diplomats in the early game (though it's always nice), whereas in the mid-to-late game is when you'll really be wanting as many diplomats as possible to manage coalitions, maintain spy networks, and annex vassals. If you want to be especially spicy, you can flip to Theocracy late game and pick up Divine for another 20% SA for the Policy with Espionage. At the end of the day, play the game however you want. It doesn't even really matter so long as what you're doing works and you're enjoying yourself.
@@aeoniangears372 thanks for such a great reply. I'm not used to people being nice and helpful while disagreeing on yt. Diplo ideas are indeed a helpful pick anytime and siege ability is very strong. I'm now drawing the following conclusion for myself: why not skip diplo until say the 6th pick, perhaps do espionage/admin/offensive/influence/situational pick/diplo and take advantage of siege mostly since the main selling point of diplo, war score cost, won't be a major factor until then. I'd still value the 2nd diplomat though. Build a spy network in preparation for the next war etc and I'd still value religious or even the new aristo/divine because I feel like it offers more of a boost, though situational of course. It's not the main selling point and not as good, but aristo gives +1 siege as well. But I'll try that. Care to explain why you don't value religious over espionage? Situational, yes, but unless playing a horde, I don't think that situation is rare at all. But all of this is trial & error, I think I'll do a teutons run with your suggested opening today. I'm also interested how 2 diplomats fares against 1 but with better spy network construction in practice since spy network detection is a thing. Budgetmonk has pointed out in the past how insanely valuable diplomat availability is, but I guess 3 / 4 diplomats is plenty via espionage
@@TheKlaun9 Also consider that Esp-Off Policy gets you a Diplomat in addition to 10% more Spy Network Efficiency (the Diplomat being the main selling point), so by the time you get both of those done you can get that extra Diplomat. Granted, assuming you take Admin, early as well then Adm-Diplo Policy is still yet another Diplomat. Religious, while excellent, is something I'd only recommend taking early (first three) in the event that your start sees you conquering a lot of wrong religion land early on, especially considering you can largely ignore religion in Trade Company land. If the amount isn't overwhelming at the start you can typically get conversions done through your Clergy Estate and an Advisor. If all you're doing with your Spy Network is making a claim for a CB, it's nearly impossible for it to be spotted before you get enough for your first claim so long as you're paying attention. If your 100% SN gets spotted while at war, you still got the advantage of getting it to 100% faster, and now can build a new network in your next target ahead of time. In my experience, by the time they find my networks it usually is too late for them, if they find it at all. If it gets spotted while not at war, you can just quickly spend it all on claims and move on. In actual gameplay, unless my ruler's Mil is garbage I end up taking Offensive first and alternating between tech and ideas (ALWAYS keep tech up to date for Mil), use early Dip to dev Renaissance (if applicable), rush Adm tech for second Idea, then take either Adm or Esp depending on my power generation at that point, preferring Esp if they're similar so I can keep using Adm to core and tech. To further illustrate the power of SA: Consider also the indirect benefits. In addition to getting your new conquered lands quicker, you also spend less time on forts which means less attrition (so saving manpower, one of the most vital resources unless you're rich enough to Merc forever), less time needing army maintenance up so saving raw money, ability to disband expensive mercs earlier (if relevant). And so on. As for the whole "not being a dick in the comments" thing, I tend to find it unhelpful at best - and detrimental at worst - to be rude or mean to someone who hasn't gone out of their way to earn it. After all, we're just talking about numbers in a silly game, there's no reason for vitriol even if we disagree on which numbers are the shiniest at any given time. I am pleased to hear you're willing to try my method, by all means if it doesn't mesh well with your style, don't feel the need to keep doing it, but your willingness to give it a go in the first places is admirable; many just stubbornly stick to their own ideas and don't entertain others. Cheers, and happy conquering! Feel free to reply with your results and further thoughts. :)
@@aeoniangears372 Now into a run where I tried ESP. It's absolutely a good group, but long story short (longer below): I'll keep some of my opinion for now. I guess you'd have to do a couple of runs with or without ESP to really draw a conclusion, but who has time for that. ESP worked out really well early, it surprised me how much the spy network generation impacts your game, but 150 years in, I really wish I'd had diplo instead. But to be fair, I opened esp divine for that extra siege ability (let's have some fun). Admin 2nd instead of 3rd would've been objectively better. That's perhaps not worth it - but why play if you don't play for fun ;), talking about 2% better or so. Stacking divine + esp + offensive is definitely something, really using that, but I think for now my point stands: ESP is not a bad idea, perhaps even a great later pick, however, Diplo feels like a simply superior group in all circumstances to me. Doesn't make the game unplayable or so and I'm sure a more skilled player may have taken advantage of a couple of things I didn't. I just think I would've been faster with Diplo given 200 years of gameplay - but without doing the same thing over and over again with different variations, well, I'll never know. That's why it's fun (for me) to theory craft. I completely agree with BudgetMonk that it's no longer a Meme pick. Maybe I just haven't figured out how to utilize it early, especially if you want diplo and influence as well. But I absolutely see more of an impact from my dear religious ideas for example. Just from one game, I'd subscribe to the following: 1) Esp is the 3rd best diplo idea group 2) Esp is for me behind religious and inno for the moment, pending further games. Delays admin, sure, but esp delays diplo influence 3) It absolutely beats humanist, I think that may even be true for hordes - but I never play them (too easy) 4) Playing the new orders right now, I like divine better for now. I know I'm a bit alone there, but it's overall such a solid group. I'd rather have diplo divine as the first 2 than esp admin for example, but that is of course restricted to a handful of nations. I'll have to do more games to see how it compares e.g. with a build that includes the new aristocratic which I'm really excited for. Really liking the general cost from divine, that's even better in Aristo. Let's point out some specific issues I had with ESP over Dip: Vassal gameplay is significantly worse. I've had a disloyal norway for way too long, takes forever to integrate anything and you have less diplomats to get the opinion up / integrate with. And going into the mid game, the missing war score cost can be felt. I'm now strong enough to really expand, but I just can't take stuff. I also had issues with dip rep due to overextension. Some good things: AE impact has an impact, Siege Ability of course is meme level, but that was never in question. A surprise was the ease with which to steal maps - specifically for the Teutons here. That was a quality of life improvement for sure. Perhaps that's down to either where I'm geographically, lack of skill or just my style (just a game), but I find that the massive siege ability gives me quick wars and then lands me in peace time a lot more than I'm used to. Don't know if I wouldn't just rather have a slightly longer war and then more stuff in the peace deal, especially combined with more vassal exploitation. Had France down in no time, but my peace deal with the ottomans wasn't even up. Perhaps I can optimize my timing, perhaps even do 4, 5? wars at the same time, be more effective than I'm doing it, but I would simply make stupid mistakes that way and I lacked the ressources for such stuff for a good, long while. So overall, it was better than expected, a really solid pick, but it feels like I said: just straight up worse than if I had picked diplo. Might be a skill issue, maybe more situational than I think, but that's for now my experience. I think it's still a very solid late game pick (but who cares there, I don't do 1 culture WC runs), it's a solid early game pick, I feel weakness in the midgame. If I wanted to do a quick but somewhat optimized game, maybe 50-100 years, I'd choose it over Diplo though. But for me, it's either a long campaign or having some fun = picking what I never pick I will go ESP and not ESP in the future - absolutely on the menu. And I hope to get more insights from better players in the future. I would've never discovered how good inno is without BudgetMonks videos for example, won't figure it all out myself. Thanks for your help!
Another thing to note- if you're an Old World coloniser then Espionage has a niche use in Rebel Support, which is one of the few casus belli that let you attack far-away countries! If you repeatedly support the same rebels they'll keep stacking up rebel trigger.
ok he noted in the comment but i feel gigabaited for him loading this on teutons and not mentioning the divine-espionage +20% siege ability policy explicitly. I think theocracies that can take divine are incredibly strong right now, especially since both divine and espionage got buffed, and the relative buff to divine's manpower modifier taking into account the base manpower decrease and the large slashing to quantity ideas. Worth nothing as well the -20% leader cost which can translate into more manpower or just straight up professionalism which will further increase your siege speed.
Aristocratic/espionage gives you brutal siege and cavalry power, influence has been nerfed badly since going over the governing capacity limit hurts admin efficiency now
i'm playing a poland game, and espionage with aristocratic gives 30% cav combat ability, along with what aristocratic and the winged hussars give, that alone means i'm melting stacks
The point of 'looking forward to spend points more efficiently' is exactly the strange sentiment that was dominant in the community. I always thought of innovative to be superior to economic if the nation doesn't die from inflation. Having just one way to spend mana cheaper is inferior to having a larger pool that could be spent on anything, especially in a game with some rng in it that rewards flexibility. It's surely neat to dip some military points into development for manpower or could put the military points into getting that professionalism up for stronger armies, that can be slackened when needed (offering more flexibility). Especially admin and diplo points are a hard cap to expand and some more production in that one province won't change the game much. Espionage and aristo are often passed on because they are generalist ideas that do many things rather than focusing on one niche. Why taking aristo when one can take quantity? Quantity gives more manpower even. Cav modifiers pale to 5% discipline from offensive or quality. But over time, I realised that having a strong army isn't that important in a game that has such a big focus on diplomacy. When one can forge more alliances, administrate the country more efficiently and bring out more troops, can out-pace other great powers by expanding faster without coalitions forming, then having less firepower is not a great loss (although one shouldn't fall too far behind). It's funny playing a campaign with a diplomatic nation, not picking offensive/quality ideas and seeing that it carries one very far. (of course not being meta play at all)
Eco ideas dominated the meta purely because of multiplayer. For whatever reason, people decided the tall meta would be efficient in SP. In reality, you really don't need all that much manpower or such a strong economy in SP.
Espionage was good since the last buff but now its amazing the problem is that playing single player you will always need diplomatic and influence ideas taking two slots of your ideas but after those too right now is think its the #3 best diplo idea
espionage is now op =) div + esp + offensive and hello 50 siege ability. I was doing the livonia achievement and thought to glance over esp for the ae reduction, didnt realize it got so buffed
Hey BudgetMonk, I'm going to try a Dithmarschen WC in the 1.34 patch and get max admin efficiency. I agree with your thoughts on Innovative & Espionage ideas, I'm just having a hard time figuring what order I should do my first 5 or 6 ideas for this run. Would it be crazy to go Inno > Espionage > Offensive > Diplo > Admin ? I feel like getting Innovative early could offset the mana cost reduction enough to justify waiting on getting the admin idea. What do you think? Also, you've taught me more about eu4 than any other youtuber by a wide margin.
I am currently doing The Three Mountains achievement run on very hard on my stream. The reason I say that is because I do not have much experience late game myself in this patch. The ideas and order you said sounds fine. You can also resort to old tactics such as deus vult. WC as an opm is a serious challenge and takes a lot of work. For example you could do this run and fail just to release what you need to do next time. Or do the equivalent amount of work as that to improve you game before hand.
Previous espionage was realistically just 20% ae. One whole idea set that gave 20% ae and you were a psychopath for taking it. Rn i can see me taking it on 18 if im just blobbing but still it feels kinda off because this buffed espionage has 3 good ideas, one mid idea and 3 nonexistent ones. I just wish espionage did more important stuff for more playstyles because rn its only good if you are mindlessly map painting and i wish every idea did something. In offensive or eco or trade EVERY idea does something important
More jameplay is the only way to put down a weeks worth of separatism. You’re getting unrest in your true faith provinces. Three hours of blessed Byzantium footage changes a man, Monk. I have needs.
Cheaper claims with faster spy network making and the first age splendor objective to make claims on provinces bordering of claims can be great before getting some CBs and to make coring stuff cheaper in the early game when admin mana is precious.
In your Bregenz run a few patches ago you did Inno and then dropped it after an initial boost. Is that an optimal strategy or would you normally finish the Inno group?
This was before the inno buff where you gain 100% more inno. And I literally needed at least 5% point cost reduction (50 inno) to reach the conversion cap. It was out of necessity. I did not have the available idea slot in the long run. For the most part you should try to keep Inno around. I like the idea a lot.
Yes, he makes reference to the recent buff to innovative in the 1.34 patch. The DLC did not change the basic ideas in any way the patch did not, according to the patch notes, AFAIK.
20% AE is really nice and the policies can be good but the average player will simply have more use getting a group with almost all useful ideas, offensive being the most stand out as you mentioned.
It’s about gap closing. If you have the army to conquer more land but your AE is too high then reducing AE directly turns into more land. If you are limited on manpower or money then a different idea group will help more. I’ve personally never used it but I see the logic.
I have always felt Espionage to be the one group I want to pick but can't simply due to how mandatory some of the other groups are and then the 5th or 6th group when I feel like I have the mandatory stuff whoops it's already late game where there won't be coalition problems or corruption problems or even particular need for extra diplomats at least for the type of goals I set for myself. I feel like province warscore cost and coring cost in particular should not be in the idea groups being far too strong, perhaps they should just be built into admin efficiency or maybe given as sort of idea group traditions where if you get 2 full groups of a type you just get the bonus on top or third of a bonus every group you finish or something along those lines. Might as well slap siege speed for military to complete the set.
Hm. I think dip and admin ideas aren't necessarily mandatory for early game tho right? unless you are talking about other ideas that i dont know about, maybe Quantity which got nerfed heavily but yeah. I think i'm going to start running inno - Espionage, then into a mil group as 3rd. Or if i want to blob earlier, dip and admin 3rd and 4th. I deem dip and admin not necessary before absolutism. But hey, i tend to play the entire 1444-1600 just getting the best trade nodes in my area and just building up till 1600. Get 100 absolutism then expand. With Quantity - trade - eco being go to. I used to play alot of Multiplayer, so Quantity - eco and playing tall is engraved in my mind, but inno espionage might yield as much of an economy benefit as quantity trade, especially since the monarch points you will earn is gonna be skyhigh.
Well maybe it was buffed . But i still cant imagine how it is possible to play without offensive and humanist. Especially when the game proceeds to the age of absolutism, when you are not allowed to raise autonomy anymore.
Moreover, when u are doing wc most countries which u are fighting with will probably have outraged opinion about u and , from my experience, they always do counter espionage , so u will probably never have 100 spy network.
However, you are missing out on 20% MP recovery if you pick these ideas for that reason. Plutocratic/espionage gives the same 33% bonus from the policy while also having 20% recovery on top, as well as 10% morale. Very strong early.
Keeping in mind you making a video where you idle your diplomats and explaining why, is the spy network construction and siege ability really better for you?
Espionage is still not as good as Influence and Diplomatic, to speak generally. Exploration if you're colonizing (though why, unless it gives you joy). And I gotta say, I ain't taking more than 2 Diplomatic Idea sets in ANY campaign. Again, I don't play colonizers or (shudder) pirates, so I am biased. I will agree that Espionage is no longer trash. Better than Trade in the Diplomatic group!
Then you obviously don't blob. Religious gives you FREE and AUTOMATIC CB. Trucejuggling is about days sometimes when you simply don't have time to fabricate claims
I'm still not sold on espionage. Mostly because it doesn't address the bottlenecks when they occur. I think it is a fundamentally flawed because it primarily targets early-game bottlenecks like ducats, and AE. A lot of what the idea group does simply does not scale up either. Making a spy network on an enemy when you declare a war maybe once every 2-3 years is viable, but when you're declaring 2~ wars a year, there's no way. The later on the game goes, the more irrelevant aggressive expansion becomes. The more irrelevant advisor cost becomes. The most irrelevant fabricating claims becomes. The more irrelevant spy networks become (because you'll be fighting 4 wars at once, with multiple belligerants, you really only need the 100% spynetwork buff against specific strong rivals, and you can get the same benefit by simply planning ahead), corruption becomes less relevant, privateering and capturing enemy ships is less impactful, vassalization and monthly favor gain is irrelevant, supporting rebels is irrelevant, cover action relation impact is irrelevant. A Diplomat is always nice but you'll get +1 diplomat policies from a ton of idea combinations anyway. Literally the ONLY buff that addresses a late game world conquest bottleneck is siege ability. All the buffs espionage brings are buffs that strengthen your early game, but like you said taking it before idea 3 or 4 would be a mistake and I genuinely think there's just better choices until around the 6th idea, and at that point all the bonuses it brings are irrelevant except the siege bonus. Religious means you can go over 100% OE pretty much whenever you want (thus needing less wars to full annex countries , saving time and resources) and have 0 rebels (thus saving manpower which is a bottleneck late game). You also get a good CB early that has a built-in AE modifier. Stacking tolerance of true faith also lets you take the state policy religious societies and alongside culture converting by stacking those modifiers and accepting cultures, you can build an extremely stable and strong country. Humanist saves you a ton of manpower and the improve relations reduces coalitions as wells. Converting provinces also gives a huge boon. After that it's just military ideas. I think the ideal idea group route is usually Influence > Religious > Dip > Admin > Offensive > Human > Quant > Defensive. Begin the game by having many vassals and primarily feeding them land and managing them and coalitions with influence + Dip. Once you unlock Admin you begin your hard blobing because tech 14 comes around 1580, just be fore absolutism. Then you HAVE to get offensive at tech 18. Tech 19 mil gets tier 3 forts and without siege ability they slow you down too much. Tier 2's are still doable so offensive before this is less important. Honestly I think you only really get real choices at idea group 6. Humanism lets you free up mental power because you have 0 rebels to deal with. I think that's actually an important part of a WC when you're managing 100 wars. However, it's not a hard requirement because you can replicate most of it's benefits with microplay. Expansion is slept on, but -10% autonomy in your territories is really freaking huge. Though I think most people are playing a core-heavy or trade-company heavy meta anyway so i think this choice usually falls off. Quantity is probably the "best" option given how tight manpower is these patches with low stack wipes, fort spams, and longer battles. Also the faster you get to military hegemony the better, this goes a long way. Quality's another option to pair with religious for 10% siege, also saves you MP through better units.
Idk i usealy pick mil idea(up to this point mostly Quantity, also i dig pluto and aristocratic, if you have large army's and manpower, bomb and assault forts and sige ability is pointless) second i usealy take eco as i dev a lot especially become i don't like playing only in central Europe so deving institutions is must. Also interest in eko ideas was good for republics when they didn't have estates...
I think the favor generation buff might enable you to take it early. It would take a hell of an idea to replace being able to call France into your early wars. I think vassalization acceptance is also underrated as vassalization is the kind of AE-free expansion that can really boost you in places like Italy and Germany.
@@johncrofford Favor generation? Just curry favors. You get 2 free diplomats from diplo for that if you need it. usually you easily get enough favors by tech 6. Vass accep? Maybe. I usually don't really bother. Really worth a whole idea group for this? Not in my opinion. Diplo and Inf are just too good. Expansion is also needed with a few nations.
You can reasonably get 50% siege ability out of espionage now (policy+full network) plus 30% AE reduction (full network + idea). Winning wars without too much fighting and saving a lot of manpower is always good, espionage has some really good policies also. For WC the corruption reduction saves your economy at times. A really solid set overall
@@civi4ever460 please don't use a full spy network as a part of the idea. You can get that without esp ideas. And i stated you get more diplomats with diplo and can do even more. Improved opinions 25% is also exceptional. Siege ability is great. But not worth an idea group alone for (is ot 10%?).
Now that you say it a Espionage-Austria game does sound like a lot of fun. Might not be the most "tryhard" way to play, but single-player is about fun campaign ideas and weird goals anyway. Becoming the grey-eminence of Europe sounds like it could check both of these boxes.
Q: Do you guys know a good way to manage manpower and attrition?
A: 3 day sieges haha
Notable policy is Divine, Espionage an additional 20% siege ability.
I had a run as Utrecht (NI) and I memed siege ability really hard with Offensive, Inno, Divine and Espionage. Managed to beat both the protestant league with a massive ottomans as well as the catholics one after the other just because of that
Defensive + Humanist for -50% LA, and if you really hate attrition, you can then either take Exploration + Quality for -75%, or I guess just take Quantity for -60%. Parliamentism has a bonus that gives -10% land attrition, and it caps at 80%, so how much you want to remove attrition is up to you. It's more important in regions like India or Africa where everything is a jungle or desert giving you attrition at all times.
Just played a game stacking siege ability and wow 50 day sieges of level 8 forts starting at - 71%.
My next planned campaign is going to be: tengri (orthodox syncretic) Smolensk Theocracy for 90+ siege ability. Testing revealed that three day sieges should be easy :)
(Starting as Oirat, considering, converting and releasing Smolensk, then get enough reform progress as a tribe to reform into Theocracy)
For a Teutonic conquest game, I really enjoy admin/espionage/divine. I really enjoy the 3 policies those have. +20%siege ability, +20% manpower in truth faith provinces and the extra reduces corruption and spy defence between esp/admin.
2nd Espionage was curcial for me when playing bohemia and puing poland through missions. 800 dip for -20% ae is massive
Can stack cavalry combat ability too with the new policies. Rad.
Reminds me of the good old days when Influence Ideas had the -20% AE, not Espionage. Used to take it everygame if I was inside or surrounding the HRE.
@@Chriseh I still play on those patches and Espionage is still very much shit lmao
What is the first for Bohemia for this?
full network also gives -30, and the 3rd idea really does help with getting to 100 network, so it's also 1200 dip for -50% ae
Dont think I will typically play it but Inno, espionage and offensive seem to give really nice policies and its spread in each category.
You get +1 diplomat and 10% spynetwork construction with espionage and offensive, +1 diplomat and -25% stab cost with espionage + inno and +1 siege and +10% siege ability with inno+offensive.
Ottomans goes brrrrrrrr
Yes these policies are really nice mixing together and +3 diplomats from this is insane
it seems like this combination of policies is trying its hardest to allow you not pick diplo ideas while still going for a fast WC game. Those 3 ideas with admin + influence as your first 5 ideas might be almost as good of a setup for WC as using the usual diplo, influence and admin + offensive in your first 4 ideas.
There is also a silly envoy travel time reduction combo possible that brings back your diplomats in 1 day. Tier 2 petra, with theocracy reform and influence ideas give -100% envoy travel time and anything above 100% brings back your diplomats in 1 day so needing many free diplomats for peacedeals in your conquest spree might be a lot less neccesary in this patch. And if its intended that makes influence a vital ideagroup and diplo less neccesary.
note that im not completely sold on it, diplo ideas still has -20 warcost reduction and +2 relationship slots (basically you yoink more lands and have more vassals/allies) that you cant replace with other ideas and the policies of diplo ideas are great too for buffing your dip rep, number of dip slots and give extra diplomats. Regardless I do really like that in this patch there is more variable gameplay styles that are actually good and viable.
Inno + Espionage + Offensive for an very powerful alternative start.
If you look at your idea choices through Budget Monk's lens of "gap closers" (great video btw), INNO+ESP+ARISTO and their combined policies are perhaps the strongest trio for SP. Innovative ideas might be something to keep just for the free three policies and advisor costs. Look at what the three idea sets nets you:
Siege -- at least 10% siege ability and a granted pip
+3 diplomats
20% AE reduction
-10% tech cost
-10% mil tech cost
35% advisor costs and +1 advisor
-0.2 corruption reduction, to tank the OE
-20% Cav Cost; +30 Cav Combat (including Aristo/Esp policy)
-25% General Cost
15% manpower
-5% dev cost
Nearly the centralization edict nationwide for free
-25% Stab Cost (Inno/Esp policy)
+20% Production Efficiency (Inno/Aristo policy)
Eco is a thing of the past...
Isn't it 40% advisor cost? 25 from Inno and 15 from Espionage?
Since when does aristocratic give 15% manpower?
Also btw, having a spy network reduces the amount of generated AE, so useful for preventing big boys from joining the coalition.
@@Notmyname1593 Since 1.34:
"- The Aristocratic idea "Serfdom" now gives -5% Development Cost and 15% Global Manpower Modifier"
@@ExitiumNL So did they change the +33% manpower from pluto+spy and exploration+ aristo? If not then those would be quite valuable now.
If you're playing a theocracy, there's also a valid argument for taking divine ideas after espionage for the policy 20% siege ability and reduced leader recruitment cost. if you can reach max professionalism faster, that's another 20% siege ability
Stacking modifiers as if they are Legos.
I'm not a fan of being a theocracy, but that siege ability... May be worth taking divine ideas early, so you keep it after swapping to a better government type. Though, the patch changed a bunch of reforms, so theocracy may be better now.
@@darthimperious1594 Theocracy has always been "decent" It really depends if you play Singleplayer or MP tho. Republic is the strongest for MP, simply because more monarch points means more devving means win, (and it has some morale buff if i remember correctly). Whilst Monarchy would be best in SP because of absolutism, Depends if you play tall or wide tho. And Theocracy is just.. Good tbh, Funnily enough i find myself getting better rulers as a theocrat than as a monarch. It has morale, it has pretty decent economic reforms etc. But yeah you do not need to stay theocracy. just switch to it get divine ideas switch back. 100 Govt reform cost. Or play teutons and form a horde instead.
@@sanderleander3367 theocracy is actually the best government for mp %10 morale %5 shock damage %10 morale damage received there is also mission on the high seas which gives all the good navy stuff not to mention people always switch to theocracies mp to take divine ideas at some point anyway. also japanese theocracy is bonkers they get %5 discipline %5 infantry combat %10 merc manpower plus all the things i already listed.
with teutonic order its so strong add in horde ideas once u unlock the mission with divine for 20% siege ability and the +50 flank ability. might sound weird but with the teutonic horde i killing 100k ottomen stacks in 1688 with 40k stacks doing 5-8 k damage per tick and only taking 700-1300 per tick
I've been thinking about it lately. Had to fabricate fast on multiple nations and my diplomats and spy network construction speed became a bottleneck around 1550. So yeah, espionage make sense. Also, on that note... Devs are really seem to be monitoring the meta and tweaking ideas to find a balance. Sometimes there is a lagging measure of old habits from the community.
Made great use of it for policies with horde and aristocratic in my Ayuthaha -> Lan Xang -> Siam -> Tibet -> Koshuud -> Yuan run where I experimented to get the ultimate cav army. :) 83% cav cost reduction, 90% cav combat with +1 cav fire. :)
It's nearly a required idea for horse playthroughs now which is rather fun and new.
it's actually really old
way back, before the Influence nerf, Espionage-Aristocratic Policy gave you +20% cav combat, in addition to the (back then) +10% cav combat from aristocratic
This only changed when they nerfed Influence and subsequently began buffing Espionage a little with every update
starting with 1.31 Espionage-Aristocratic had its 20% cav combat halved to 10%
If you want to go full on cav, then you shouldn't get the cav combat ability policies. There are better options for your cav damage.
@@Vincrand such as?
@@eretna2480 the ones that give shock damage or discipline.
@@Vincrand how do you get shock dmg bonuses tho unless you have certain types of units and certain types of gov
i disagree we need to meme espionange more so paradox will keep buffing it and make it utterly broken
Not gonna lie, when you play a theocracy, espionage is pretty much a must have around the mid game. Just having Divine, Espionage and Offensive ideas gives you a 50% Siege ability modifier, assuming you use the Divine/Espionage policy. In other words, even without cannons, your siege ticks will rarely exceed 25 days until the late game when the AI has level 6 or 8 forts everywhere, which is pretty insane. Plus, the aggessive expansion impact is a really nice way to bridge the period between 1550 and 1610, where taking provinces causes a lot of AE, which can be nicely mitigated by the -20% modifer. On top of that, if you have a country you really don't want in a coalition, you can jus thit them with a spy network and decrease your AE impact on them by 30% (at 100% network) which basically means you ahve a targeted 50% AE reduction modifier.
"Innovative is the absolute best luxury idea in the game."
A gentleman and a scholar. Literally auto-liked the vid upon hearing this.
Never understood why Espionage was a meme idea for single player.
Really? Or you just joking? ;)
Because they were objectively terrible before they were buffed? Before the patch there was no siege ability, no AE reduction, no vassalisation acceptance, and the advisor cost and corruption reduction modifiers were smaller. Even currently I am not sold on the idea group, it's obviously much, much better but I still think the other groups are better, but there's no question it used to be terrible
@@exantiuse497 the ae reduction was moved there ages ago tho?
@@alotofswaghaver The first iteration of the idea group, the one that spawned the memes, didn't. The original Espionage ideas needed two major buffs before becoming decent, they were just so bad
I concur with your analysis. I went Sweden first game. Innovative into Quality into Espionage and I'm thinking Offensive next. Espionage has made sieging Europe down so much easier, between my 45% ICR, 10% discipline, maxed army tradition and then the siege ability modifiers. You can base race anyone and if they try to fight you, they die. And that sweet sweet advisor cost has let me permanently run L4 advisors soon L5 after I got BI and then moved trade port.
Always enjoy what you bring to the game - insights, straight talk, and, of course... Byzantium videos!
Inno, Quality/Aristocratic, Espionage/Influence is my go to when I don't roleplay
Wow they added stuff I didn't even know was in the idea set. I just finished a Holy Horde campaign where I stacked as much siege ability as I could. If I had known Espionage had that siege ability on the spy network construction I would have had absolutely taken it and gotten 90% siege power.
Espionage was always good. It's hated for no reason even though it gives you AE reduction, helps you get more siege ability and with diplomacy. Now it got improved so it's even better. So many people get salty about coalitions but never consider taking the most obvious modifier for AE reduction. It's an absolutely crucial pick when you plan on expanding into HRE.
Thing is when you are really good you're are cycling truces to avoid coalitions anyway. But sure if you want to chill it's good.
boy that AE reduction was only introduced in 1.29 when they took that same exact AE modifier away from Influence ideas
@@gas132 Damn, you're right I remember I always used to pick influence as France and I couldn't remember why. But anyway, yes. AE reduction is important
@@TheRealXartaX Yeah, you can do that if you really wanna micromanage war. But as you said, sometimes it's just nice to annex 3 entire states of northern Italy as France and then chill with colonialism for a bit like you said, so yeah. I think AE reduction is a real quality of life idea, especially if you pick up the pope status for another 20+ AE reduction. Religious is important for that, which I think is another underrated idea group
The people complaining about coalitions and the people mocking Espionage shouldn't be the same people. Espionage was decent before, but not great. Now it's good. Still not great, but definitely not an idea group to mock anymore.
Espionage was essential for WC in dharma that corruption was brutal. Espionage, defensive, and administrative, ideas for that .6 yearly corruption reduction. (Thank god corruption reduction was capped at 1)
Winter Palace also increases vassalization acceptance, so it must be really nice to pick espionage as Russia/Novgorod/Muscovy (or the ones who own the monument)
Not anymore
Also Espionage + Horde ideas give you policy for extra 10% cav combat ability and 50% cav flanking ability, which is very powerful for already broken Teutonic Horde for example.
I've always taken espionage ideas non ironically, they always seemed great to me
I've been using the "My bond is my word" for ages
Monk will you consider doing "how to own as Athens"? As the foremost expert on the Byzantium and Knights starts I feel you would have good insight on Athens.
I tend to always go offensive, quality, trade and economic ( my logic is create a crazy op military and then attempt to gain the ability to fund it) this seems a lot more thought out and I think will try this
Just a note that spy network only accelerates siege ability with Mare Nostrum so it's value is reduced without that.
I’d argue that to maximize early game potential you take it before diplo ideas. The claims reduce the admin and AE for the provinces since they are going to be conquest wars. That also saves diplo, and the AE reduction is far better than improved relations.
not to mention that in the early game province war score is not much of an issue - you likely wouldn't be taking that much land anyway, due to the nasty, nasty AE and caolitions which you can't reliably handle early on.
Well to get almost free manpowers, having espionnage ideas is needed (and other ideas that will lower general cost)
Not in any way trying to claim that it is a powerful meta at all, but I think this patch's changes to Naval ideas - specifically the 100% barrage cost reduction - have actually made the way Marines seemed to have been conceptually designed originally into actually being viable now.
Innovative - Espionage - Offensive - Naval - Maritime - combined with a flagship that has +1 fleet movement speed / +1 blockade impact on siege / -33% disembark time
You will have super fast sieges (+40-60% minimum), +4 base added to sieges plus an additional +2 (1 from admiral, 1 from general) guaranteed minimum, without using cannons, 8 day landing time with 4-5 day siege ticks, and a free barrage on day one. Your ships will all have +2 fleet movement speed, and be seriously undamageable. And you won't even need to use a single point of manpower for it, it's all sailors.
Sure, this only applies to coastal forts, but you will have high innovativeness, army tradition, and professionalism, to make up for the lack of other buffs, and your manpower is not being used for early sieges.
Again, not for every country, but if you're a naval power, and gonna make the most of it, this actually seems viable for the first time ever. Obviously not god-tier, but definitely viable.
espionage + plutocracy is great. Also it unlocks Puppeter the Nobility reform for monarchy
what ideas would you recommend for Brandenburg? Diploma or spy?
In my last run as cologne Espionage was the first Idea group that I took and that run was amazing, formed Germany without many complications.
I don't enjoy as much meta gaming so I did
Omg I always choose diplomatic idea instead of espionage and it's very hard. Defenitly i will try espionage ideas next time.
Also getting a lot of rebel support efficiency means that you can effectively weaken any nation without going to war, especially if you have a strong economy and a strong military to support those rebels, because the rebels you support gain the modifiers you have,like morale, discipline, combat ability i think also matters. it is also funny seeing a buffed stack of rebels kill half of a nations's army because you are also buffed.
i like to do a lot of expanding all the time no matter what, so i always end up getting espionage at some point because that -20% AE impact is amazing for my playstyle
what ideas and with what order would you actually recommend. Because I suppose - when you are colonial you need exploration+expansion (or diplo+expansion when Norway), then there is usually time to make some military one (offensive). Usually third spot is good for Humanist, but you are in 4th spot now which starts to be late.... then there is 5th and I feel it starts to be really late for admin and innovative
what would be eg. colonial, standarde and horde playstyle
Offer vassalization reduction is great for dealing with HRE members.
Also don't forget about the amount of cav combat ability and other cav centric buffs it gives when match up with horde ideas or aristocratic ideas. Horses go clap clap
In isolation, those are great modifiers. Here is my question though when I put it into context because the game forces you to choose one group over another: you'd want to pick espionage early because it's only a great group if you can justify using it early (as in first 3 picks). Great modifiers, but isnt going diplo before espionage strictly better?
Siege is nice, but you have offensive - is maximizing siege ability early with level 2 forts really that good (given the context that you could have other ideas instead)? I'd rather have more stuff and more money = more cannons.
Some short points on that: I think people like the ae reduction a lot, but expanding smartly plus diplo ideas seems much better for handling coalitions than a flat bonus. The 2nd diplomat from diplo on the other hand helps so much early game. And then talking later in the campaign, I'd rather have/pick humanist for example. But I'm not a good player, let me know why I'm wrong.
The diplo plus advisor cost looks tasty, but I'd still take 2 diplomats over that I think. Speaking strictly optimizing the game of course. I always go for at least one role play idea for fun - you can do most things with most idea picks. Inno offensive gives more siege, so of you want to optimize there, go inno instead for better overall bonuses? The idea group espionage to me seems redundant, always the 2nd best pick. And don't get me wrong, it's not bad, I'd just rather go something else all the time. Given in the context of a normal game I mean.
Looking at this another way: So out of the 4 best idea groups you want to get fast, 2 are diplo already and you want them asap. I also personally like my influence asap (pick 3-6 maybe). I'd rather take religious, humanist, even divine/horde or aristocratic (horses rule) as an early "fun" pick just because they offer more all around quality modifiers and are not just "diplo ideas minus". Diplo plus influence plus espionage just seems like a super weird, diplo heavy pick to me. Maybe this is me being not an s tier player, but don't you use diplo points to dev institutions? If espionage was a military idea btw, I'd be sold maybe.
And yes, the policies, but there are some great other policies you could get your hands on - seems more like a meme thing to me than truly optimized gameplay if you put heavy emphasis on policies - in general, not just espionage.
Let's theory craft here, in order: we pick espionage 1st, offensive 2nd, admin 3rd, influence 4th, diplo 5th perhaps? Why not just go diplo first instead then, what does espionage have over that? Then go for the 2nd pick religious as a very strong but optional pick e.g. which gives you completely different options and abilities. That's my whole point. Great modifiers, but why not just go diplo instead and don't hurt your progression by picking this specific "luxury" idea group that actually prevents you from getting the good stuff fast and seems redundant if you get diplo anyway.
And don't get me wrong, 10% siege + spy network construction is a great argument for a late espionage pick imo, but I'm talking early here. I also get that you sort of have a hybrid that gives you some benefits from offensive and diplo, but you want those anyways, so redundancy again. If you go for a role play build and you want economic and trade, yes, get espionage to get 2 in 1. but if you put artificial restricions on your game, then you can justify anything.
I'd love to see this put into practice by a master, please change my mind. And I'll try this out and perhaps change my mind myself :). I'd also love to see a direct comparison with other hot picks and why espionage is better, namely religious, the new aristo, divine, horde stuff, let's throw in humanist or even things like quality (with inno combined for example)
If you're going on the big campaign like he's talking about, Siege Ability is arguably the single best (military) modifier you can get, no matter the stage of the game. It starts out great and only gets better. The Otto SA Age Ability is one of the main reasons you want to avoid fighting them early unless your start demands it (Byzantium for example) or they're vulnerable. I would go so far as to recommend Espionage, Admin, Offensive as your first three ideas, precise order depending on your power availability.
If you're playing seriously you're only picking fights you can win, and win them quickly; so most of your time at war is going to be sitting around, waiting for sieges to finish. The sooner it's done, the sooner you can reap the rewards of your conquest and the sooner you can move on to the next war. If it weren't for the province warscore cost, I'd even put Espionage on an even level with Diplo. In fact I would argue that your logic about Espionage being better later works even moreso with Diplo. You don't need as many diplomats in the early game (though it's always nice), whereas in the mid-to-late game is when you'll really be wanting as many diplomats as possible to manage coalitions, maintain spy networks, and annex vassals. If you want to be especially spicy, you can flip to Theocracy late game and pick up Divine for another 20% SA for the Policy with Espionage.
At the end of the day, play the game however you want. It doesn't even really matter so long as what you're doing works and you're enjoying yourself.
@@aeoniangears372 thanks for such a great reply. I'm not used to people being nice and helpful while disagreeing on yt. Diplo ideas are indeed a helpful pick anytime and siege ability is very strong. I'm now drawing the following conclusion for myself: why not skip diplo until say the 6th pick, perhaps do espionage/admin/offensive/influence/situational pick/diplo and take advantage of siege mostly since the main selling point of diplo, war score cost, won't be a major factor until then. I'd still value the 2nd diplomat though. Build a spy network in preparation for the next war etc and I'd still value religious or even the new aristo/divine because I feel like it offers more of a boost, though situational of course. It's not the main selling point and not as good, but aristo gives +1 siege as well. But I'll try that. Care to explain why you don't value religious over espionage? Situational, yes, but unless playing a horde, I don't think that situation is rare at all. But all of this is trial & error, I think I'll do a teutons run with your suggested opening today.
I'm also interested how 2 diplomats fares against 1 but with better spy network construction in practice since spy network detection is a thing. Budgetmonk has pointed out in the past how insanely valuable diplomat availability is, but I guess 3 / 4 diplomats is plenty via espionage
@@TheKlaun9 Also consider that Esp-Off Policy gets you a Diplomat in addition to 10% more Spy Network Efficiency (the Diplomat being the main selling point), so by the time you get both of those done you can get that extra Diplomat. Granted, assuming you take Admin, early as well then Adm-Diplo Policy is still yet another Diplomat. Religious, while excellent, is something I'd only recommend taking early (first three) in the event that your start sees you conquering a lot of wrong religion land early on, especially considering you can largely ignore religion in Trade Company land. If the amount isn't overwhelming at the start you can typically get conversions done through your Clergy Estate and an Advisor.
If all you're doing with your Spy Network is making a claim for a CB, it's nearly impossible for it to be spotted before you get enough for your first claim so long as you're paying attention. If your 100% SN gets spotted while at war, you still got the advantage of getting it to 100% faster, and now can build a new network in your next target ahead of time. In my experience, by the time they find my networks it usually is too late for them, if they find it at all. If it gets spotted while not at war, you can just quickly spend it all on claims and move on.
In actual gameplay, unless my ruler's Mil is garbage I end up taking Offensive first and alternating between tech and ideas (ALWAYS keep tech up to date for Mil), use early Dip to dev Renaissance (if applicable), rush Adm tech for second Idea, then take either Adm or Esp depending on my power generation at that point, preferring Esp if they're similar so I can keep using Adm to core and tech.
To further illustrate the power of SA: Consider also the indirect benefits. In addition to getting your new conquered lands quicker, you also spend less time on forts which means less attrition (so saving manpower, one of the most vital resources unless you're rich enough to Merc forever), less time needing army maintenance up so saving raw money, ability to disband expensive mercs earlier (if relevant). And so on.
As for the whole "not being a dick in the comments" thing, I tend to find it unhelpful at best - and detrimental at worst - to be rude or mean to someone who hasn't gone out of their way to earn it. After all, we're just talking about numbers in a silly game, there's no reason for vitriol even if we disagree on which numbers are the shiniest at any given time. I am pleased to hear you're willing to try my method, by all means if it doesn't mesh well with your style, don't feel the need to keep doing it, but your willingness to give it a go in the first places is admirable; many just stubbornly stick to their own ideas and don't entertain others.
Cheers, and happy conquering! Feel free to reply with your results and further thoughts. :)
@@aeoniangears372 Now into a run where I tried ESP. It's absolutely a good group, but long story short (longer below): I'll keep some of my opinion for now.
I guess you'd have to do a couple of runs with or without ESP to really draw a conclusion, but who has time for that. ESP worked out really well early, it surprised me how much the spy network generation impacts your game, but 150 years in, I really wish I'd had diplo instead. But to be fair, I opened esp divine for that extra siege ability (let's have some fun). Admin 2nd instead of 3rd would've been objectively better. That's perhaps not worth it - but why play if you don't play for fun ;), talking about 2% better or so.
Stacking divine + esp + offensive is definitely something, really using that, but I think for now my point stands: ESP is not a bad idea, perhaps even a great later pick, however, Diplo feels like a simply superior group in all circumstances to me.
Doesn't make the game unplayable or so and I'm sure a more skilled player may have taken advantage of a couple of things I didn't. I just think I would've been faster with Diplo given 200 years of gameplay - but without doing the same thing over and over again with different variations, well, I'll never know. That's why it's fun (for me) to theory craft.
I completely agree with BudgetMonk that it's no longer a Meme pick. Maybe I just haven't figured out how to utilize it early, especially if you want diplo and influence as well. But I absolutely see more of an impact from my dear religious ideas for example. Just from one game, I'd subscribe to the following:
1) Esp is the 3rd best diplo idea group
2) Esp is for me behind religious and inno for the moment, pending further games. Delays admin, sure, but esp delays diplo influence
3) It absolutely beats humanist, I think that may even be true for hordes - but I never play them (too easy)
4) Playing the new orders right now, I like divine better for now. I know I'm a bit alone there, but it's overall such a solid group. I'd rather have diplo divine as the first 2 than esp admin for example, but that is of course restricted to a handful of nations.
I'll have to do more games to see how it compares e.g. with a build that includes the new aristocratic which I'm really excited for. Really liking the general cost from divine, that's even better in Aristo.
Let's point out some specific issues I had with ESP over Dip: Vassal gameplay is significantly worse. I've had a disloyal norway for way too long, takes forever to integrate anything and you have less diplomats to get the opinion up / integrate with. And going into the mid game, the missing war score cost can be felt. I'm now strong enough to really expand, but I just can't take stuff. I also had issues with dip rep due to overextension.
Some good things: AE impact has an impact, Siege Ability of course is meme level, but that was never in question. A surprise was the ease with which to steal maps - specifically for the Teutons here. That was a quality of life improvement for sure.
Perhaps that's down to either where I'm geographically, lack of skill or just my style (just a game), but I find that the massive siege ability gives me quick wars and then lands me in peace time a lot more than I'm used to. Don't know if I wouldn't just rather have a slightly longer war and then more stuff in the peace deal, especially combined with more vassal exploitation. Had France down in no time, but my peace deal with the ottomans wasn't even up. Perhaps I can optimize my timing, perhaps even do 4, 5? wars at the same time, be more effective than I'm doing it, but I would simply make stupid mistakes that way and I lacked the ressources for such stuff for a good, long while.
So overall, it was better than expected, a really solid pick, but it feels like I said: just straight up worse than if I had picked diplo. Might be a skill issue, maybe more situational than I think, but that's for now my experience. I think it's still a very solid late game pick (but who cares there, I don't do 1 culture WC runs), it's a solid early game pick, I feel weakness in the midgame.
If I wanted to do a quick but somewhat optimized game, maybe 50-100 years, I'd choose it over Diplo though. But for me, it's either a long campaign or having some fun = picking what I never pick
I will go ESP and not ESP in the future - absolutely on the menu. And I hope to get more insights from better players in the future. I would've never discovered how good inno is without BudgetMonks videos for example, won't figure it all out myself. Thanks for your help!
Another thing to note- if you're an Old World coloniser then Espionage has a niche use in Rebel Support, which is one of the few casus belli that let you attack far-away countries! If you repeatedly support the same rebels they'll keep stacking up rebel trigger.
ok he noted in the comment but i feel gigabaited for him loading this on teutons and not mentioning the divine-espionage +20% siege ability policy explicitly. I think theocracies that can take divine are incredibly strong right now, especially since both divine and espionage got buffed, and the relative buff to divine's manpower modifier taking into account the base manpower decrease and the large slashing to quantity ideas. Worth nothing as well the -20% leader cost which can translate into more manpower or just straight up professionalism which will further increase your siege speed.
Aristocratic/espionage gives you brutal siege and cavalry power, influence has been nerfed badly since going over the governing capacity limit hurts admin efficiency now
i'm playing a poland game, and espionage with aristocratic gives 30% cav combat ability, along with what aristocratic and the winged hussars give, that alone means i'm melting stacks
The point of 'looking forward to spend points more efficiently' is exactly the strange sentiment that was dominant in the community. I always thought of innovative to be superior to economic if the nation doesn't die from inflation. Having just one way to spend mana cheaper is inferior to having a larger pool that could be spent on anything, especially in a game with some rng in it that rewards flexibility. It's surely neat to dip some military points into development for manpower or could put the military points into getting that professionalism up for stronger armies, that can be slackened when needed (offering more flexibility). Especially admin and diplo points are a hard cap to expand and some more production in that one province won't change the game much.
Espionage and aristo are often passed on because they are generalist ideas that do many things rather than focusing on one niche. Why taking aristo when one can take quantity? Quantity gives more manpower even. Cav modifiers pale to 5% discipline from offensive or quality. But over time, I realised that having a strong army isn't that important in a game that has such a big focus on diplomacy. When one can forge more alliances, administrate the country more efficiently and bring out more troops, can out-pace other great powers by expanding faster without coalitions forming, then having less firepower is not a great loss (although one shouldn't fall too far behind). It's funny playing a campaign with a diplomatic nation, not picking offensive/quality ideas and seeing that it carries one very far. (of course not being meta play at all)
Eco ideas dominated the meta purely because of multiplayer. For whatever reason, people decided the tall meta would be efficient in SP. In reality, you really don't need all that much manpower or such a strong economy in SP.
Even though it got nerfed, quantity can still be very helpful, especially with new good government reforms you can take instead of +15% manpower
Espionage was good since the last buff but now its amazing the problem is that playing single player you will always need diplomatic and influence ideas taking two slots of your ideas but after those too right now is think its the #3 best diplo idea
"how to own as byzantium in 1.34" when?
What dlc do you need to be able to get siege ability from spy networks?
Espionage is one of the best diplomatic idea group.
espionage is now op =) div + esp + offensive and hello 50 siege ability. I was doing the livonia achievement and thought to glance over esp for the ae reduction, didnt realize it got so buffed
Also add to it extra siege from proffesjonalism
I don't always go Espionage, but I always consider it. I always felt like everyone has been sleeping on it for ages.
Never once in a game in my thousand of hours did I go espionage. Until now.
Hey BudgetMonk,
I'm going to try a Dithmarschen WC in the 1.34 patch and get max admin efficiency. I agree with your thoughts on Innovative & Espionage ideas, I'm just having a hard time figuring what order I should do my first 5 or 6 ideas for this run. Would it be crazy to go Inno > Espionage > Offensive > Diplo > Admin ? I feel like getting Innovative early could offset the mana cost reduction enough to justify waiting on getting the admin idea. What do you think? Also, you've taught me more about eu4 than any other youtuber by a wide margin.
I am currently doing The Three Mountains achievement run on very hard on my stream. The reason I say that is because I do not have much experience late game myself in this patch. The ideas and order you said sounds fine. You can also resort to old tactics such as deus vult. WC as an opm is a serious challenge and takes a lot of work. For example you could do this run and fail just to release what you need to do next time. Or do the equivalent amount of work as that to improve you game before hand.
Good luck and have fun!
Saluzzo with espionage is nice for dealing with Italy
Also max spy network now gives 20% ae reduction
Previous espionage was realistically just 20% ae. One whole idea set that gave 20% ae and you were a psychopath for taking it. Rn i can see me taking it on 18 if im just blobbing but still it feels kinda off because this buffed espionage has 3 good ideas, one mid idea and 3 nonexistent ones. I just wish espionage did more important stuff for more playstyles because rn its only good if you are mindlessly map painting and i wish every idea did something. In offensive or eco or trade EVERY idea does something important
More jameplay is the only way to put down a weeks worth of separatism. You’re getting unrest in your true faith provinces.
Three hours of blessed Byzantium footage changes a man, Monk. I have needs.
I was not as active because of the new major patch and dlc that was approaching. Hope to put out a lot of content now. Thanks for watching it.
Has been for years...
I feel like navy is still a meme idea
Cheaper claims with faster spy network making and the first age splendor objective to make claims on provinces bordering of claims can be great before getting some CBs and to make coring stuff cheaper in the early game when admin mana is precious.
lmao i just saw that social streamers "5 things" video before coming here
That video was released more than a year now. Like, 1.31 patch. Of course it's outdated
In your Bregenz run a few patches ago you did Inno and then dropped it after an initial boost. Is that an optimal strategy or would you normally finish the Inno group?
This was before the inno buff where you gain 100% more inno. And I literally needed at least 5% point cost reduction (50 inno) to reach the conversion cap. It was out of necessity. I did not have the available idea slot in the long run. For the most part you should try to keep Inno around. I like the idea a lot.
@@BudgetMonk Awesome, thanks! I don't have much time to play the game so I like hearing the insight to make my runs a better use of time.
can you do an espionage run?
Is this updated for Lions of the North?
Yes, he makes reference to the recent buff to innovative in the 1.34 patch. The DLC did not change the basic ideas in any way the patch did not, according to the patch notes, AFAIK.
Opportunity cost moment
20% AE is really nice and the policies can be good but the average player will simply have more use getting a group with almost all useful ideas, offensive being the most stand out as you mentioned.
It’s about gap closing. If you have the army to conquer more land but your AE is too high then reducing AE directly turns into more land. If you are limited on manpower or money then a different idea group will help more.
I’ve personally never used it but I see the logic.
I have always felt Espionage to be the one group I want to pick but can't simply due to how mandatory some of the other groups are and then the 5th or 6th group when I feel like I have the mandatory stuff whoops it's already late game where there won't be coalition problems or corruption problems or even particular need for extra diplomats at least for the type of goals I set for myself. I feel like province warscore cost and coring cost in particular should not be in the idea groups being far too strong, perhaps they should just be built into admin efficiency or maybe given as sort of idea group traditions where if you get 2 full groups of a type you just get the bonus on top or third of a bonus every group you finish or something along those lines. Might as well slap siege speed for military to complete the set.
Hm. I think dip and admin ideas aren't necessarily mandatory for early game tho right? unless you are talking about other ideas that i dont know about, maybe Quantity which got nerfed heavily but yeah. I think i'm going to start running inno - Espionage, then into a mil group as 3rd. Or if i want to blob earlier, dip and admin 3rd and 4th. I deem dip and admin not necessary before absolutism. But hey, i tend to play the entire 1444-1600 just getting the best trade nodes in my area and just building up till 1600. Get 100 absolutism then expand. With Quantity - trade - eco being go to. I used to play alot of Multiplayer, so Quantity - eco and playing tall is engraved in my mind, but inno espionage might yield as much of an economy benefit as quantity trade, especially since the monarch points you will earn is gonna be skyhigh.
Well maybe it was buffed . But i still cant imagine how it is possible to play without offensive and humanist. Especially when the game proceeds to the age of absolutism, when you are not allowed to raise autonomy anymore.
Moreover, when u are doing wc most countries which u are fighting with will probably have outraged opinion about u and , from my experience, they always do counter espionage , so u will probably never have 100 spy network.
I dont really see the need for humanist tbh although I generally take it anyways, religious works just fine
@@goranpersson7726 well i cant imagine how to survive without humanist after exceeding overextension limit during non-stop conquest.
👍 good Job! miss you on twitch see ya mate. Tera
with the new nerf to quantity; aristocratic + exploration is actually better with the +33% manpower policy
However, you are missing out on 20% MP recovery if you pick these ideas for that reason. Plutocratic/espionage gives the same 33% bonus from the policy while also having 20% recovery on top, as well as 10% morale. Very strong early.
Quick and very informative
Keeping in mind you making a video where you idle your diplomats and explaining why, is the spy network construction and siege ability really better for you?
Are we still in an era where people think Espionage is bad, even before this patch I saw it as a crucial pick for playig in the hre
Don’t forget the 20% siege bonus from divine ideas, 110% siege ability is no joke, 3 day sieges anyone?
I'm just enjoying the cav bonus as poland with buffed aristo
Made me wsnt to give the new patch a test with a teutonic knights run and pick espionage haha
Espionage is still not as good as Influence and Diplomatic, to speak generally. Exploration if you're colonizing (though why, unless it gives you joy). And I gotta say, I ain't taking more than 2 Diplomatic Idea sets in ANY campaign. Again, I don't play colonizers or (shudder) pirates, so I am biased. I will agree that Espionage is no longer trash. Better than Trade in the Diplomatic group!
Non negotiable ideas is not a fun way of playing a game
I swear espionage is so fucking good I actually get it every game
espionage>>>religious. idk why people are so into religious, AE reduction through casus beli is nice but espionage is far better in that
I like the CB because it allows you to take land without paying DIP for unjustified demands, not for the AE reduction.
Then you obviously don't blob. Religious gives you FREE and AUTOMATIC CB.
Trucejuggling is about days sometimes when you simply don't have time to fabricate claims
Annexed all of ottomans and half of egypt, got only 15 AE with QQ. Espionage is REALLY good.
is this valid in 1.33
I'm still not sold on espionage. Mostly because it doesn't address the bottlenecks when they occur. I think it is a fundamentally flawed because it primarily targets early-game bottlenecks like ducats, and AE. A lot of what the idea group does simply does not scale up either. Making a spy network on an enemy when you declare a war maybe once every 2-3 years is viable, but when you're declaring 2~ wars a year, there's no way.
The later on the game goes, the more irrelevant aggressive expansion becomes. The more irrelevant advisor cost becomes. The most irrelevant fabricating claims becomes. The more irrelevant spy networks become (because you'll be fighting 4 wars at once, with multiple belligerants, you really only need the 100% spynetwork buff against specific strong rivals, and you can get the same benefit by simply planning ahead), corruption becomes less relevant, privateering and capturing enemy ships is less impactful, vassalization and monthly favor gain is irrelevant, supporting rebels is irrelevant, cover action relation impact is irrelevant. A Diplomat is always nice but you'll get +1 diplomat policies from a ton of idea combinations anyway.
Literally the ONLY buff that addresses a late game world conquest bottleneck is siege ability.
All the buffs espionage brings are buffs that strengthen your early game, but like you said taking it before idea 3 or 4 would be a mistake and I genuinely think there's just better choices until around the 6th idea, and at that point all the bonuses it brings are irrelevant except the siege bonus.
Religious means you can go over 100% OE pretty much whenever you want (thus needing less wars to full annex countries , saving time and resources) and have 0 rebels (thus saving manpower which is a bottleneck late game). You also get a good CB early that has a built-in AE modifier. Stacking tolerance of true faith also lets you take the state policy religious societies and alongside culture converting by stacking those modifiers and accepting cultures, you can build an extremely stable and strong country.
Humanist saves you a ton of manpower and the improve relations reduces coalitions as wells. Converting provinces also gives a huge boon.
After that it's just military ideas.
I think the ideal idea group route is usually Influence > Religious > Dip > Admin > Offensive > Human > Quant > Defensive.
Begin the game by having many vassals and primarily feeding them land and managing them and coalitions with influence + Dip. Once you unlock Admin you begin your hard blobing because tech 14 comes around 1580, just be fore absolutism. Then you HAVE to get offensive at tech 18. Tech 19 mil gets tier 3 forts and without siege ability they slow you down too much. Tier 2's are still doable so offensive before this is less important.
Honestly I think you only really get real choices at idea group 6.
Humanism lets you free up mental power because you have 0 rebels to deal with. I think that's actually an important part of a WC when you're managing 100 wars. However, it's not a hard requirement because you can replicate most of it's benefits with microplay.
Expansion is slept on, but -10% autonomy in your territories is really freaking huge. Though I think most people are playing a core-heavy or trade-company heavy meta anyway so i think this choice usually falls off.
Quantity is probably the "best" option given how tight manpower is these patches with low stack wipes, fort spams, and longer battles. Also the faster you get to military hegemony the better, this goes a long way.
Quality's another option to pair with religious for 10% siege, also saves you MP through better units.
Idk i usealy pick mil idea(up to this point mostly Quantity, also i dig pluto and aristocratic, if you have large army's and manpower, bomb and assault forts and sige ability is pointless) second i usealy take eco as i dev a lot especially become i don't like playing only in central Europe so deving institutions is must. Also interest in eko ideas was good for republics when they didn't have estates...
So hard to justify Espi when there are so many better and more important ideas.
Maybe as a late mid game idea, but not before.
I think the favor generation buff might enable you to take it early. It would take a hell of an idea to replace being able to call France into your early wars. I think vassalization acceptance is also underrated as vassalization is the kind of AE-free expansion that can really boost you in places like Italy and Germany.
@@johncrofford Favor generation? Just curry favors. You get 2 free diplomats from diplo for that if you need it. usually you easily get enough favors by tech 6.
Vass accep? Maybe. I usually don't really bother. Really worth a whole idea group for this? Not in my opinion.
Diplo and Inf are just too good. Expansion is also needed with a few nations.
You can reasonably get 50% siege ability out of espionage now (policy+full network) plus 30% AE reduction (full network + idea). Winning wars without too much fighting and saving a lot of manpower is always good, espionage has some really good policies also. For WC the corruption reduction saves your economy at times. A really solid set overall
@@civi4ever460 please don't use a full spy network as a part of the idea. You can get that without esp ideas. And i stated you get more diplomats with diplo and can do even more.
Improved opinions 25% is also exceptional.
Siege ability is great. But not worth an idea group alone for (is ot 10%?).
Now that you say it a Espionage-Austria game does sound like a lot of fun. Might not be the most "tryhard" way to play, but single-player is about fun campaign ideas and weird goals anyway. Becoming the grey-eminence of Europe sounds like it could check both of these boxes.
Good horsies
instead of making a 1.34 video to rack up views you are talking about ''ESPIONNAGE'' --''
kind of shallow analysis :(
this is why jewish faith is the best
Yeeeeeeees
Noice