The cool thing about balrogs dirty bull is he pulls out three illegal moves in boxing: head butting, toe stomping and elbowing. Which is very on brand for him
And his Flash Kick super can be used in exactly the same way as his counter super (It's fully invincible on frame 1) PLUS it can actually be used in combos AND as an anti-air AND gives you 2 meters instead of just one. It's a shame, I love counter supers but it just blows so bad.
That was honestly the worst thing about it on launch. Stun Dipper RRC is a cornerstone of his neutral and offense so getting the meter penalty was awful.
Couldn't combo into it, I don't even think it was plus if you hit with the shockwave, hit you with a SEVERE meter penalty to the point your offense isn't even that scary because there's no way you can threaten with RC.
There's also moves in the game that always force ground-bounce, like Nova H Nova Strike. I don't understand why She-Hulk's super doesn't force wall bounce. Seems like a real oversight.
@PochoBoto It also leads to a fairly easy x-factor infinite so it's not even that making the wallbounce forced would break the game. They already nerfed She-Hulk pretty bad between vanilla and ultimate so it doesn't make sense not to give her at least something.
Chris in UMVC3 also had a groundbounce in his super. But even if the groundbounce is already used, the super can still continue with slightly less damage. Why couldn't She-Hulk at least have that?
I’m surprised that LK didn’t bring up Bedman’s hemi-jack. Costs 50 meter, slowly hovers over the opponent for 9 seconds, gets destroyed after 3 hits or Bedman gets hit once, and basically removes Bedman’s meter gain for 8 seconds. What does it do on hit? Minimal damage and stuns. The easiest way to land it is to combo into it. However, the stun scaling can make hemi-jack to NOT STUN, defeating the entire purpose of the super. It’s amazing how much Arc sys made this suck.
When I saw KOF2K2 come up and Shermie highlighted, I thought for sure you were gonna show her normal form's 3-count pin super which insta-kills ... Unless the other player mashes right out of it!
A recent one I can think of is JOJO ASBR Stromheim's grenade super, no way to confirm it, SUPER SLOW, brings you to 1 hp even if they don't get hit and removes your meter for the rest of the match, it does damage but it's no android 16 self-destruct super
surprised by no mentions of older arcade games. as a kid i hated doing supers because even if i managed to get the input right they would fall out what felt like every time and i’d never get to see the full move. but i was also a seven year old in an arcade playing a game that came out before i was born. i’ll always love you street fighter alpha 3
if you're looking for a bad super check out Pom's lvl 3 in TFH! It's a counter super that costs 3 bars, but it doesn't counter until frame 15. If you get hit before that, you just lose 3 bars. When the counter is hit, she attempts to Raging Demon the opponent, but it can still be jumped post-flash depending on range and how unsafe the move she countered is.
@@joaojahnke9684 while they are mostly suboptimal, most have some competitive use, especially for Texas and Velvet. Pom's is still uniquely bad among level 3s, which is saying something when you consider how weak some of the others are
I would like to bring up Ruby heart's Barrel Knife Toss super. This drops a barrel out the sky, capturing the opponent inside and Ruby has to guess high or low to throw knives. the second you guess wrong the super ends,so you might get no damage. if the opponent is airborne, they are launch into the air taking little to no damage(but you do usually recover before they hit the ground to get a follow up) It also has and awkward input (HK,LP,d,LK,HP) so combos to this super arent easy
i think you could fix cmd grab supers like balrog's by giving it some startup for the opponent to react to BEFORE a super flash, and then once it becomes active (or only when it connects) the super flash happens so it can still mix people not paying attention, but it doesn't immediately give itself away
I'm shocked Dragon Install Second from AC+R didn't make it into the video. The install that's permanent for the rest of the match, and also drains your life to 1 HP.
Idk if it’s already been done, but another really bad super in gg is in accent core plus r, with sol’s second dragon install, which basically drains your health faster than you can dish out damage, which not being able to gain a lot of meter, and having an input which is hard to do (the input is 4 quarter circle back, which is honestly a good thing)
Along those lines is Justice's Omega Shift which makes her nuts for like 10 seconds, but none of the new stuff you can do is more damaging than base Justice, it maxes out your guard gauge when it ends, it causes you to do a long animation when it ends that leaves you wide open, and it costs 100 meter.
Chaka's lvl. 2 from JoJo: HFTF is pretty dang bad. He has a "learning counter" special that allows you to guard cancel for the rest of the round whenever you block the move you countered. His lvl 2 burns 2 bars to "learn" all opponent moves, but only if the slow, weak attack hits and isn't blocked. To make it worse, you lose all learning once you are hit, so it wastes meter and messes up his counter special.
I think that one that could enter the list or at least be an honourable mention that you even mentioned a while ago in a video is Nemesis lvl 3 in UMVC3, for similar reasons to Balrog's 2nd ultra, since it's a command grab super and the opponent can jump after the flash, but also you can hit Nemesis out of the start of his lvl 3.
About Balrog grappling and using his feet on his super: I think it's very adequate for him because he is a boxer in the SF6 and also a unapologetic villain. In boxing, repositioning your opponent with your hands to throw them off (and line them up for your sunday punch) is an illegal move, but a cheating boxer may get away with it by making it look like you accidentally became close to clinch ("hug") with you opponent and used your hands to avoid the clinch. The same thing goes for stepping on the opponent foot, it's another illegal move but can be accidental. Of that, in the context of the game, none of these moves are illegal for the match or duel they're in, but it is a cool animation that shows off his "dirty boxer" side imo.
Aww man, this makes me wanna start UMVC3 again. My go to team of She-Hulk, Dormmamu and Hsien-Ko/X-23/Ammy really threw people for a loop. I think She-Hulk was such a rare pick that most people weren't prepared for her crazy rushdown style and how quickly she could cross the screen while they were also forced to defend against Dormammu's zoning.
Rugal's Kaiser Phoenix in 2002/2002UM, all he does is spam Kaiser Waves but they don't combo into each other, some are delayed and its totally random which level they come in.
Orochi Shermie's HSDM wasn't even unblockable in the vanilla 2002. Still had the same random chance to hit either opponent, or neither, or even both. Foxy's HSDM was at least a guaranteed instant kill on BOTH her and the opponent, even if they had full HP, and was comboable.
I'd like to mention Labrys' Brutal Impact from Persona 4 Arena. It's a high damage unblockable hit with long startup (100+ frames), and it can be triggered as a counter if she gets hit during the startup. But the problems are: 1. No good setups for it - she has another super that can hold the opponent in place blocking for long enough to charge the unblockable, but it's expensive (100 meter for both supers, plus 50 to cancel the first one for the setup, that's your entire super meter in Persona), and the opponent can easily instant block the many hits from the lockdown super to quickly get enough meter to Guard Cancel Roll out of the way once the unblockable activates (assuming they don't already have enough meter to do so) 2. You can combo into it, but it's not worth it - the routes you have to use to combo into it are retrictive and meter intensive, while routes that use her other combo ender super will deal similar, if not higher damage, for less work and meter. 3. Even as a counter, it has the "reactable super flash" problem in a game with universal two button DPs - the super flash only happens either after the 100+ frame startup or after being triggered as a counter, but the hit itself still takes a while after to come out, giving the opponent plenty of time to react and cancel into a DP, invincible super or even just roll through it and get a big punish. As an extra sprinkle of salt in the wound, it's an Awakening super (in other words, you only have access to it when you're in low health). Luckily she does have another Awakening super that's way better (invincible startup and plus on block), but it's still baffling that they thought Brutal Impact was good enough to be restricted like that.
Notably, Shadow Labrys in the same game has the same super, but while it does less damage overall, has the same counter and Awakening issues as regular Labrys, and she can't make it unblockable, none of that matters because her version is fast enough to be usable in combos, especially those using her *other* Awakening super, which is one of the best moves in the entire game.
Y'all missed Videls knockdown lv3. That move is embarrassing, I've so many times had it face the wrong way. Like opponent wasn't going for a mixup or anything, Gohan just popped up and shot his beam the wrong way lol. It also takes really long to start so they can usually just block after it's activated if it faces the right way.
Soku has some bad supers, Remilia's Millenium Vampire gives you a roman cancel (on hit or block) and 75% lifesteal, which sounds good, until you realize that 1. the character has no conversion issues that this solves (and other cards do solve them) 2. canceling into a super reduces the rest of your combo's damage by 20%, so in most cases your damage doesn't improve 2. the effect only lasts 10 seconds 3. it also makes you take 20% more damage for the duration for some reason 4. it costs 4 cards, which is a lot, and 5. for that same cost you have Gungnir, one of the best supers in the game that combos from basically everything for big damage, or can be used to cancel any unsafe move on block, do 12% of your opponent's health as chip (combos in this game tend to deal around 25%), leave you +40, and deal half their guard gauge (or guardcrush into combo if they don't have enough)
Chen's P. Power in Real Bout 2. It really just gets you into more trouble if you successfully hit the opponent with it. The last hit should knock the opponent.
Morrigan's Valkyrie Turn in TvC is probably the worst it's ever been. There is no way to combo into it unless you get like a dizzy or something. It's just a useless slow move that makes you completely vulnerable.
@@Gettles it's not really good but it's a solid corner escape option in CVS2 (start up invul and very fast recovery when you use low screen entry) fairly specific utility but only use it in multi meter grooves, don't waste your k groove or p groove meter on it.
Crazy thing is, the Japanese only character, Hakushon Daimon, had a reliable stun super you could combo into, perfect for the likes of Morrigan. So the fact that he didn’t make it in managed to make a _completely separate character_ worse!
It's cool to see Balrog Ultra 2 get redeemed in V with his V Trigger 2 where you get like two command grabs that are not reactable and still have the unique property of doing a ton of stun + you can combo into them. God imagine if they brought Balrog to 6 and his super 2 does only like 1000 damage but takes away 3 drive gauges.
The answer for command grab supers is to give them startup before the super freeze. Like there is a middle ground between unreactable + unblockable and warlock punch but the whole screen turns purple when he starts doing it.
I think the only character I've seen with a command grab super that can be jumped after the flash who actually makes it work is Squigly in Skullgirls. Under normal circumstances, you can just jump out of Daisy Pusher on reaction to the super flash. However, things are a bit more involved than that: 1) Daisy Pusher has *hella* invincibility, from frame 1 all the way to after the flash, and tons of active frames. You can't jump out on reaction if you committed to an attack before the flash, so it has some use as a reversal. Hell, because it's invincible, active for real long, and people can't jump out of landing recovery, it has some niche use as an *anti-air*, because it beats most jump-ins from characters who can't react to the flash with air dashes or air supers. 2) If you stagger somebody, you can actually combo into throws. Squigly can easily fit a stagger into her combos, and Daisy Pusher greatly out-damages her other level 1 super, making it her better option to cash out meter for damage. However, because you only get 1 stagger per combo, she can't just loop Daisy Pusher a whole bunch to dump tons of meter. She also can't use it as a hard knockdown ender if she uses it early for damage, which matters, because she can use the knockdown time to build her other resource. 3) That other resource is her ability to enter a special stance and charge up power. This will enhance her next special move. If she charges her P stance, then her Center Stage special move also has a super flash. She can cancel that move's super flash into her actual supers. Doing Daisy Pusher this way loses the invincibility, but *now you can't jump out on reaction to the super flash*. There's a lot of opportunity cost in spending your P charge on Daisy Pusher. It also has tons of niche uses, and a few really practical ones when you don't have P charge, so it's not like you *need* to get this other resource to "activate" this super or it's totally worthless.
For balrog's super, it might be cool if they made it so the person who used the super could also jump after the flash, hitting if someone jumped to escape it. Would basically just make it a 50/50 if you aren't punishing or comboing into it
Balrog command grab super being 0 frame would've been completely bonkers, but at the same time a command grab super you can just jump out of for free really sucks. The only way I can think of making it work would be to keep the super flash and the grab has 1-2 frames of startup after the flash, but the flash also doesn't allow you to input buffer anything, so you can still jump out but you actually have to time the jump to those few frames. There's probably some technical limitation that prevents that from happening in the first place though.
The technical limitation is called "holding up", you don't need to buffer a jump, just holding up will repeatedly jump Far more sane to just have start-up before the flash, there is no world where post-flash frames are sane if they're escapable by just jumping, you either need it to catch air and ground, or for jumping to not be throw invuln frame 1, which has a bunch of other implications on long standing concepts of how to design system and command grabs
Peacock Lvl 3 is probably the most useless level 3 in the game (Skullgirls). First of all it’s grab super but not in the way u might think. You have to land the grab first AND THEN super so ur opponent can tech the throw and u will ever get it. On top of that it can’t b comboed into normally u have to stagger the opponent 1st. And if all that wasn’t enough looping lvl 1 supers (Argus into Lenny into Argus) will always do more damage both at the end of a combo AND the beginning since u can combo off it. So yea peacock is godlike but her lvl 3 is trash
LK referencing a game not made by ASW? Biggest surprise of the video I'm really surprised that the She-Hulk one works like that. Normally characters get move-specific stuff to guarantee it works, like certain moves getting "juggle anywhere" property so the opponent doesn't fall out in the middle. The fact that the SH super doesn't grant 1 extra wall bounce or something is bizarre.
If She-Hulk's super reset the wallbounce, it could be looped. This definitely isn't gamebreaking (Sentinel can loop Hard-drive), but because there's travel time it might introduce some DHC jank where you can intercept before they hit the wall and get a wallbounce reset. If I'm remembering correctly, the wallbounce issue is only ONE of the issues with that super. Sometimes the followups would cross-up, meaning that you need to input the motion for them backwards to correctly perform the rekka or you burn meter for an accidental DHC's (usually Lv.3). On the topic of UMvC3, while not a bad super, Tron Bonne's Lunch Rush super is the only super in the game (and maybe the only move?) that can't be X-factor cancelled on whiff and has 83f recovery.
Haven't watched the entire video yet but Videl's count super from DBFZ has to make this list. Even after buffing it, it is legit so terrible. It is viable, but still terrible. Prior, there was never a reason to use this. How it made it into a modern fighting game is beyond me.
It's probably the most unreliable super in the whole game, if you get hit by it then you were getting hit by anything else in the game, even the most basic wake-up level 3
the balrog one is actually really well thought out. Balrog is a boxer so he obviously shouldn't be using his feet/throwing opponent. So to sort of punish him for "cheating" it comes with a lot of downsides. it's fast because balrog is always looking for ways to cheat.
@@AirLancer Im saying for this particular one is supposed to be bad. they gave him a "good" one for him to actually use and the grab one seems more like a nod to his character and story.
Would it be better if She Hulks super was changed so that her first hit is the most damaging but the rest of the hits are weaker to compensate, or should it basically have a unique effect where the supers wall bounce doesnt cost the "One bounce per combo" system?
1 super that was always bad is actually tied to my favorite DBFZ character. Hit's alternate Lv1. Before it got buffed it was barely able to combo into other supers, it did less damage than his other Lv1, sometimes it would just whiff if damage scaling was too high and if you did land it just for damage, it wouldn't put you in any advantageous setup. Nowadays some supers create a mixup. Now it's more reliable, gives a knockdown if you spend enough bar for it and it's TOD central. But it's still underutilized and not good at all because it eats ALL your bar, no matter what. It's specifically a game ender and basically a "win more" super.
You forgot the meter penalty from the launch version of ky dragon install which pretty much prevented faultless defense and supers if you didn't have full meter when activating or gold burst after activation. I think this was the worst aspect of the dragon install at launch.
If rage (Tekken) count as the games supers. Martial law (sluggish low, -9 on block) It takes a seeable low and puts a high-damage mid extension on it that gives distance splat, the extension is -9 on block (abnormally bad for a rage drive) and the moves doesn’t fit his tool kit or combo routes. Finally recently buffed to be unseeable, (with alt input route) is Now a usable rage drive. Also bad: Gigas, slow unblockable low stun into mixup. Can be cheesed by neutral jump (by entire cast) and some characters can neutralise the mixup anyways even if they get caught. It’s two mix ups in a row, not in his favour and a wrong guess gets him killed and, he needs walls to get follow up damage, and, he can’t use it in combos.
Watching this video reminds me of another really bad super back in the day. Chun-Li's Ultra 1 from vanilla/launch SF4. Chun-Li's combos are usually long which scales down the damage of the ultra alot when used mid combo and she had no good way to combo into it back then. Not only that, you can't use it mid combo if you're not in a corner, the first hit would always fail to connect because Chun-Li lunges forward by a ton. So you would to go out of your way to put your opponent in the corner, do a combo with a few normals and juggle your opponent for it to do decent damage. And even after all of that, the 2nd part of the ultra (the Lightning kicks part) and the 3rd part (The launching kick) can fail to juggle almost half the time, leaving you wide open for a punish. It was hilarious how broken that Ultra was lol.
I think the fact that so many light autocombos in DBFZ end in command throws that basically are there to make it whiff on block at the end* shows that FG devs are not always thinking of the grab aspect as a strong point or advantage (iow, using it to balance a character downwards) *yeah, yeah, tick throws, but 1. they can and will be jumped out of just like the Balrog super and 2. you have to use some of the… otherwise less good assists just to try to get them so again I’d argue not an overall plus
I know you can influence Shermie super in vanilla but i don't know if it also works on UM, you had to press 6A to move it to the max range if I'm not wrong
There's definively a few more in KOF 2002 that can make it in the list. You should check Kula's La Cachola. Literally does barely any damage, it takes 2 power gauges to use and you literally have to be in the air on top of the opponent. Plus, the opponent can break free from this move by mashing the buttons and can even strike back before Kula can reach the ground and block after that.
When you were talking about Balrog; I use Shanty in TFH and I feel that. Shanty is a raging demon animation (c grab) that can be jumped on the flash. In order to raw you need to make a serious call out. I also play Pom, who has an even worse lvl 3. It's a counter that can still be jumped after the opponent hits a button and after the animation goes through. Why?
Even if it's not a good Super, Dirty Bull is good flavor for how Balrog is a dirty boxer - grabbing the opponent, stepping on their foot, and elbow strikes are all against the rules, and the Super has him do all three.
LK is entirely right about she-hulk. like there are forced wall bounces that will work even if you've used your wall bounce already on a couple moves in umvc3 already, so stuff like this probably wasnt on purpose.
I've played some crummy old fighters in the past, and I think I'll say that a bad super move is one that doesn't properly combo at all. Even if you counter hit, the final punch is blockable and th eentire move is duckable, meaning you'll get punished to hell regardless. This has to do with a design mistake, I think.
I remember playing a lot of vanilla KOF 2002 and you can influence the distance of the lightning . If you press a button after the kiss hits you can press a, b, c ,d to influence it. A hits on the left side corner , b middle screen left side ,c middle screen right side and d right side around the corner and if i remember correctly if you do the super on the right side of the screen the way to influence didn't change .
When you booted up KoF2k2 I thought you were going to show Chris. His hidden desperation move is to turn into Orochi Chris... who is just selectable from the character select screen and isn't an OP boss character.
can you do a video about infinites in fighting games? for example i've heard people say that Cassandra had an infinite in Soul Calibur 2 but i haven't been able to find how to do it online, or if it was doable only in a specific version of the game
Another bad super is Grant's super 2 in Garou. It's good damage but it's so easy to fall out of, super unsafe and way harder to combo into compared to super 1
Oroshermie's lightning can be avoided by rolling so it doesn't hit Shermie herself, that worked in Vanilla KOF, and you could try and do it very up close so the lightning hits both, not sure if you can still do that in 2002 UM.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Faust's release super: Bone Crushing Excitement. Worst damage in the game, slow, tiny hitbox, awful positioning (midscreen with low frame advantage, so no good oki), didn't break wall (the ONLY damaging super in the game at the time to not do so), and if you used it in the corner, it took you OUT of the corner. Because that's what Faust players want to do, give up their corner pressure XD A lot of these things have been patched and remedied now, notably the frame advantage, hitbox size, and wallbreak ability.
It would be super funny for Capcom to bring the Balrog Command Grab Ultra back at the same power level, but make it unjumpable. As a little nod, it should play a special animation of Balrog like snatching the leg, then doing a variation of the grab that does a little more damage. Effectively punishing them for jumping and getting grabbed. They’re willing to make joke moves, so I dont see that as a bridge too far
The developers thought so too, as Orochi Shermie’s Climax super in ‘KOF XV’ re-uses it, with the change being that Shermie deliberately electrocutes herself to power herself up before striking the opponent.
@@ryanm.8720 it’s more what makes it bad makes it hype than the visual of is (although that’s pretty cool too) imagine grand finals reset last game of the tournament and shermie starts losing. Then suddenly off of one good hit they get a guaranteed setup into the the unblockable super. Both players will die if it hits them. The whole venue waits with baited breath. Both players can do nothing take their hands off the controller and cross their fingers hoping for the best. How sick would that be?
I played with U2 Balrog for a while just to try and get rid of some bad habits of fishing for U1 combos. I went from a positive winrate to losing all my matches. His U1 was so good and carried me so hard. The fact that his U2 was one of the worst in the game was ridiculous compared to his U1.
I love how LK managed to bring up Xrd Millia in both the broken supers and awful supers video
i’ve watched every moment of LK’s life and he cannot go more than 36 hours without bringing up Xrd Millia or he will invoke a terrible curse :/
He's def biased because there are FAR worse supers in Xrd, like the legendary sheep super which basically does fuck all
get you a girl who can do both
@@NeoBoneGirl It does something, it makes 50 meter disappear with no returns
LK is god’s strongest Millia downplayer
The cool thing about balrogs dirty bull is he pulls out three illegal moves in boxing: head butting, toe stomping and elbowing. Which is very on brand for him
Oh nah fr while the super maybe wack. But personality wise it is 100% Balrog!
@@sharifrowe7812it’s literally not wack lmao 🤡
and the third hit isn’t an elbow; it’s a straight up punch. stop spreading misinformation.
I mean. We are watching a video of the worst super moves so.
@@animaIpath Relax bud
Remy's parry super in 3rd Strike is up there for me. Not only does it give you one tiny bar, it's very reactable and doesn't work on jump ins.
Counter supers should not have a super flash/freeze unless it actually succesful, the counter Ultras in SFIV also have this problem
Yeah, but you can make a whole TH-cam channel of you hitting opponents with it and get thousands of views 😂
And his Flash Kick super can be used in exactly the same way as his counter super (It's fully invincible on frame 1) PLUS it can actually be used in combos AND as an anti-air AND gives you 2 meters instead of just one.
It's a shame, I love counter supers but it just blows so bad.
Yeah Blue Nocturne is definitely up there
Actually it's super good and super awesome and it's the only super Remy should be picking actually, but that's just me personally.
Ky's launch Dragon Install also gave you a meter penalty for the rest of the round.
That was honestly the worst thing about it on launch. Stun Dipper RRC is a cornerstone of his neutral and offense so getting the meter penalty was awful.
Couldn't combo into it, I don't even think it was plus if you hit with the shockwave, hit you with a SEVERE meter penalty to the point your offense isn't even that scary because there's no way you can threaten with RC.
If you can get infinite HKD’s with Dante, you should be awarded at least 2-3 wall bounces as She-Hulk
There's also moves in the game that always force ground-bounce, like Nova H Nova Strike. I don't understand why She-Hulk's super doesn't force wall bounce. Seems like a real oversight.
@@zakk219 ammys J.H when fully charged also causes a forced ground bounce and that's an air normal lol
@PochoBoto It also leads to a fairly easy x-factor infinite so it's not even that making the wallbounce forced would break the game. They already nerfed She-Hulk pretty bad between vanilla and ultimate so it doesn't make sense not to give her at least something.
@@zakk219 oh I was agreeing with you lol just pointing out that a normal has a better property than a super
@PochoBoto Oh I know you weren't arguing. Sorry if it came across like that. I was just adding on to what you said.
Chris in UMVC3 also had a groundbounce in his super. But even if the groundbounce is already used, the super can still continue with slightly less damage. Why couldn't She-Hulk at least have that?
You can influence Shermie's lighting strike by pressing a+f and c+b, 3 times in a row... in vanilla 2002. not sure if it works in UM
I’m surprised that LK didn’t bring up Bedman’s hemi-jack. Costs 50 meter, slowly hovers over the opponent for 9 seconds, gets destroyed after 3 hits or Bedman gets hit once, and basically removes Bedman’s meter gain for 8 seconds. What does it do on hit? Minimal damage and stuns. The easiest way to land it is to combo into it. However, the stun scaling can make hemi-jack to NOT STUN, defeating the entire purpose of the super. It’s amazing how much Arc sys made this suck.
When I saw KOF2K2 come up and Shermie highlighted, I thought for sure you were gonna show her normal form's 3-count pin super which insta-kills ... Unless the other player mashes right out of it!
I guess doing nothing is much better than killing you half the time
She-Hulk not reseting the wall bounce count is an oversight.
I agree. It's definitely an oversight because Chris had the same problem with Sweep Combo in vanilla and they fixed it in Ultimate.
She Hulk not being in Infinite was also an oversight.
Infinite was an oversight
Remeber, you can combo off of She Hulks super after the second or last hit. If she were able to wall bounce every super she would get a loop.
Remeber, you can combo off of She Hulks super after the second or last hit. If she were able to wall bounce every super she would get a loop.
I love the JMcrofts x Lordknight crossover episodes!
A recent one I can think of is JOJO ASBR Stromheim's grenade super, no way to confirm it, SUPER SLOW, brings you to 1 hp even if they don't get hit and removes your meter for the rest of the match, it does damage but it's no android 16 self-destruct super
surprised by no mentions of older arcade games. as a kid i hated doing supers because even if i managed to get the input right they would fall out what felt like every time and i’d never get to see the full move. but i was also a seven year old in an arcade playing a game that came out before i was born.
i’ll always love you street fighter alpha 3
if you're looking for a bad super check out Pom's lvl 3 in TFH!
It's a counter super that costs 3 bars, but it doesn't counter until frame 15.
If you get hit before that, you just lose 3 bars.
When the counter is hit, she attempts to Raging Demon the opponent, but it can still be jumped post-flash depending on range and how unsafe the move she countered is.
this is crazy I randomly found you in the comments & vaguely remember your SC6 Carly Rae jepsen
I mean no TFH lvl 3 is really worth it. Most are just to style on the opponent. Lvl 1 and 2s are much much better
@@65rytg omg I'm honored
@@joaojahnke9684 while they are mostly suboptimal, most have some competitive use, especially for Texas and Velvet. Pom's is still uniquely bad among level 3s, which is saying something when you consider how weak some of the others are
I would like to bring up Ruby heart's Barrel Knife Toss super.
This drops a barrel out the sky, capturing the opponent inside and Ruby has to guess high or low to throw knives.
the second you guess wrong the super ends,so you might get no damage.
if the opponent is airborne, they are launch into the air taking little to no damage(but you do usually recover before they hit the ground to get a follow up)
It also has and awkward input (HK,LP,d,LK,HP) so combos to this super arent easy
Really enjoy your collabs with LK! Hope to see more in the future!
i think you could fix cmd grab supers like balrog's by giving it some startup for the opponent to react to BEFORE a super flash, and then once it becomes active (or only when it connects) the super flash happens
so it can still mix people not paying attention, but it doesn't immediately give itself away
same thing with counter supers.
@@absoul112 anjis in ggst doesn’t have a flash until it activates and is kinda usable as a result
@@65rytg you’re right. I got reminded of Blue Nocturne looking through the comments.
A fair number of command grab supers do that I think, the good ones at least, not huge frames but like, usually a few
@@absoul112 counter supers in BlazBlue do that. The flash only happens when it lands
I'm shocked Dragon Install Second from AC+R didn't make it into the video. The install that's permanent for the rest of the match, and also drains your life to 1 HP.
Idk if it’s already been done, but another really bad super in gg is in accent core plus r, with sol’s second dragon install, which basically drains your health faster than you can dish out damage, which not being able to gain a lot of meter, and having an input which is hard to do (the input is 4 quarter circle back, which is honestly a good thing)
Along those lines is Justice's Omega Shift which makes her nuts for like 10 seconds, but none of the new stuff you can do is more damaging than base Justice, it maxes out your guard gauge when it ends, it causes you to do a long animation when it ends that leaves you wide open, and it costs 100 meter.
Chaka's lvl. 2 from JoJo: HFTF is pretty dang bad.
He has a "learning counter" special that allows you to guard cancel for the rest of the round whenever you block the move you countered. His lvl 2 burns 2 bars to "learn" all opponent moves, but only if the slow, weak attack hits and isn't blocked. To make it worse, you lose all learning once you are hit, so it wastes meter and messes up his counter special.
Another downside to She-Hulk’s super is that you also only get 1 hit if you’re using her for a team hyper combo
Not just the feet for Balrog. ALL those moves are illegal in boxing! The grab, the headbutt, the stomp, and the elbow!
To fix the Command Grab Super, give them an alt input that is only an anti air command grab. That way they have to call their own mix up.
Shulkie should get a forced wallbounce in her super imo
I think that one that could enter the list or at least be an honourable mention that you even mentioned a while ago in a video is Nemesis lvl 3 in UMVC3, for similar reasons to Balrog's 2nd ultra, since it's a command grab super and the opponent can jump after the flash, but also you can hit Nemesis out of the start of his lvl 3.
Lord Jmcrofts expanding my horizons once again
About Balrog grappling and using his feet on his super: I think it's very adequate for him because he is a boxer in the SF6 and also a unapologetic villain.
In boxing, repositioning your opponent with your hands to throw them off (and line them up for your sunday punch) is an illegal move, but a cheating boxer may get away with it by making it look like you accidentally became close to clinch ("hug") with you opponent and used your hands to avoid the clinch. The same thing goes for stepping on the opponent foot, it's another illegal move but can be accidental.
Of that, in the context of the game, none of these moves are illegal for the match or duel they're in, but it is a cool animation that shows off his "dirty boxer" side imo.
Aww man, this makes me wanna start UMVC3 again. My go to team of She-Hulk, Dormmamu and Hsien-Ko/X-23/Ammy really threw people for a loop. I think She-Hulk was such a rare pick that most people weren't prepared for her crazy rushdown style and how quickly she could cross the screen while they were also forced to defend against Dormammu's zoning.
Rugal's Kaiser Phoenix in 2002/2002UM, all he does is spam Kaiser Waves but they don't combo into each other, some are delayed and its totally random which level they come in.
At least some of them were unblockable and they didn't kill him in the process.
Orochi Shermie's HSDM wasn't even unblockable in the vanilla 2002. Still had the same random chance to hit either opponent, or neither, or even both.
Foxy's HSDM was at least a guaranteed instant kill on BOTH her and the opponent, even if they had full HP, and was comboable.
All this time l thought She Hulks super just sucked or didnt work, turns out l was doing it wrong.
I never understood how to get the other hits of She-Hulk's super even with standing super.
I'd like to mention Labrys' Brutal Impact from Persona 4 Arena.
It's a high damage unblockable hit with long startup (100+ frames), and it can be triggered as a counter if she gets hit during the startup.
But the problems are:
1. No good setups for it - she has another super that can hold the opponent in place blocking for long enough to charge the unblockable, but it's expensive (100 meter for both supers, plus 50 to cancel the first one for the setup, that's your entire super meter in Persona), and the opponent can easily instant block the many hits from the lockdown super to quickly get enough meter to Guard Cancel Roll out of the way once the unblockable activates (assuming they don't already have enough meter to do so)
2. You can combo into it, but it's not worth it - the routes you have to use to combo into it are retrictive and meter intensive, while routes that use her other combo ender super will deal similar, if not higher damage, for less work and meter.
3. Even as a counter, it has the "reactable super flash" problem in a game with universal two button DPs - the super flash only happens either after the 100+ frame startup or after being triggered as a counter, but the hit itself still takes a while after to come out, giving the opponent plenty of time to react and cancel into a DP, invincible super or even just roll through it and get a big punish.
As an extra sprinkle of salt in the wound, it's an Awakening super (in other words, you only have access to it when you're in low health). Luckily she does have another Awakening super that's way better (invincible startup and plus on block), but it's still baffling that they thought Brutal Impact was good enough to be restricted like that.
Notably, Shadow Labrys in the same game has the same super, but while it does less damage overall, has the same counter and Awakening issues as regular Labrys, and she can't make it unblockable, none of that matters because her version is fast enough to be usable in combos, especially those using her *other* Awakening super, which is one of the best moves in the entire game.
I still weep over the loss of Vanilla She Hulk. Jenny we didn't deserve you 😢
Y'all missed Videls knockdown lv3. That move is embarrassing, I've so many times had it face the wrong way.
Like opponent wasn't going for a mixup or anything, Gohan just popped up and shot his beam the wrong way lol.
It also takes really long to start so they can usually just block after it's activated if it faces the right way.
Soku has some bad supers, Remilia's Millenium Vampire gives you a roman cancel (on hit or block) and 75% lifesteal, which sounds good, until you realize that
1. the character has no conversion issues that this solves (and other cards do solve them)
2. canceling into a super reduces the rest of your combo's damage by 20%, so in most cases your damage doesn't improve
2. the effect only lasts 10 seconds
3. it also makes you take 20% more damage for the duration for some reason
4. it costs 4 cards, which is a lot, and
5. for that same cost you have Gungnir, one of the best supers in the game that combos from basically everything for big damage, or can be used to cancel any unsafe move on block, do 12% of your opponent's health as chip (combos in this game tend to deal around 25%), leave you +40, and deal half their guard gauge (or guardcrush into combo if they don't have enough)
Chen's P. Power in Real Bout 2. It really just gets you into more trouble if you successfully hit the opponent with it. The last hit should knock the opponent.
Note on HSDM in KOF 2002UM, you only need 3 meter when not in Max Mode, if you are in max mode you only need 2 (the max mode bar you've spent + 1)
I dunno, She-Hulk's thighs are not F-Tier to me.
Morrigan's Valkyrie Turn in TvC is probably the worst it's ever been. There is no way to combo into it unless you get like a dizzy or something. It's just a useless slow move that makes you completely vulnerable.
Has Valkyrie Turn ever been good?
@@Gettles it's not really good but it's a solid corner escape option in CVS2 (start up invul and very fast recovery when you use low screen entry) fairly specific utility but only use it in multi meter grooves, don't waste your k groove or p groove meter on it.
Crazy thing is, the Japanese only character, Hakushon Daimon, had a reliable stun super you could combo into, perfect for the likes of Morrigan.
So the fact that he didn’t make it in managed to make a _completely separate character_ worse!
It's cool to see Balrog Ultra 2 get redeemed in V with his V Trigger 2 where you get like two command grabs that are not reactable and still have the unique property of doing a ton of stun + you can combo into them.
God imagine if they brought Balrog to 6 and his super 2 does only like 1000 damage but takes away 3 drive gauges.
The answer for command grab supers is to give them startup before the super freeze. Like there is a middle ground between unreactable + unblockable and warlock punch but the whole screen turns purple when he starts doing it.
I think the only character I've seen with a command grab super that can be jumped after the flash who actually makes it work is Squigly in Skullgirls. Under normal circumstances, you can just jump out of Daisy Pusher on reaction to the super flash. However, things are a bit more involved than that:
1) Daisy Pusher has *hella* invincibility, from frame 1 all the way to after the flash, and tons of active frames. You can't jump out on reaction if you committed to an attack before the flash, so it has some use as a reversal. Hell, because it's invincible, active for real long, and people can't jump out of landing recovery, it has some niche use as an *anti-air*, because it beats most jump-ins from characters who can't react to the flash with air dashes or air supers.
2) If you stagger somebody, you can actually combo into throws. Squigly can easily fit a stagger into her combos, and Daisy Pusher greatly out-damages her other level 1 super, making it her better option to cash out meter for damage. However, because you only get 1 stagger per combo, she can't just loop Daisy Pusher a whole bunch to dump tons of meter. She also can't use it as a hard knockdown ender if she uses it early for damage, which matters, because she can use the knockdown time to build her other resource.
3) That other resource is her ability to enter a special stance and charge up power. This will enhance her next special move. If she charges her P stance, then her Center Stage special move also has a super flash. She can cancel that move's super flash into her actual supers. Doing Daisy Pusher this way loses the invincibility, but *now you can't jump out on reaction to the super flash*.
There's a lot of opportunity cost in spending your P charge on Daisy Pusher. It also has tons of niche uses, and a few really practical ones when you don't have P charge, so it's not like you *need* to get this other resource to "activate" this super or it's totally worthless.
Nemesis super in MVC3 has no I-frames so you can interrupt it with a jab.
Missing Link Axl's supers were punishable ON HIT
a lot of stuff in missing link is punishable on hit
For balrog's super, it might be cool if they made it so the person who used the super could also jump after the flash, hitting if someone jumped to escape it. Would basically just make it a 50/50 if you aren't punishing or comboing into it
Me going into the video: "ohhh, I know one, Balrog ultra 2!!"
JM:"So here's Balrog ultra 2"
Balrog command grab super being 0 frame would've been completely bonkers, but at the same time a command grab super you can just jump out of for free really sucks. The only way I can think of making it work would be to keep the super flash and the grab has 1-2 frames of startup after the flash, but the flash also doesn't allow you to input buffer anything, so you can still jump out but you actually have to time the jump to those few frames. There's probably some technical limitation that prevents that from happening in the first place though.
The technical limitation is called "holding up", you don't need to buffer a jump, just holding up will repeatedly jump
Far more sane to just have start-up before the flash, there is no world where post-flash frames are sane if they're escapable by just jumping, you either need it to catch air and ground, or for jumping to not be throw invuln frame 1, which has a bunch of other implications on long standing concepts of how to design system and command grabs
You forgot how She Hulks dropkick *was fixed* as it used to randomly bounce them off the wrong wall or followup the wrong way
Peacock Lvl 3 is probably the most useless level 3 in the game (Skullgirls). First of all it’s grab super but not in the way u might think. You have to land the grab first AND THEN super so ur opponent can tech the throw and u will ever get it. On top of that it can’t b comboed into normally u have to stagger the opponent 1st. And if all that wasn’t enough looping lvl 1 supers (Argus into Lenny into Argus) will always do more damage both at the end of a combo AND the beginning since u can combo off it. So yea peacock is godlike but her lvl 3 is trash
LK referencing a game not made by ASW? Biggest surprise of the video
I'm really surprised that the She-Hulk one works like that. Normally characters get move-specific stuff to guarantee it works, like certain moves getting "juggle anywhere" property so the opponent doesn't fall out in the middle. The fact that the SH super doesn't grant 1 extra wall bounce or something is bizarre.
Kula's La Cachola, which is not only hard to execute and connect, all it does is drain the opponent's meter.
If She-Hulk's super reset the wallbounce, it could be looped. This definitely isn't gamebreaking (Sentinel can loop Hard-drive), but because there's travel time it might introduce some DHC jank where you can intercept before they hit the wall and get a wallbounce reset. If I'm remembering correctly, the wallbounce issue is only ONE of the issues with that super. Sometimes the followups would cross-up, meaning that you need to input the motion for them backwards to correctly perform the rekka or you burn meter for an accidental DHC's (usually Lv.3).
On the topic of UMvC3, while not a bad super, Tron Bonne's Lunch Rush super is the only super in the game (and maybe the only move?) that can't be X-factor cancelled on whiff and has 83f recovery.
Haven't watched the entire video yet but Videl's count super from DBFZ has to make this list. Even after buffing it, it is legit so terrible. It is viable, but still terrible. Prior, there was never a reason to use this. How it made it into a modern fighting game is beyond me.
It made it in because Videl is a bit of a joke character overall
It's probably the most unreliable super in the whole game, if you get hit by it then you were getting hit by anything else in the game, even the most basic wake-up level 3
the balrog one is actually really well thought out. Balrog is a boxer so he obviously shouldn't be using his feet/throwing opponent. So to sort of punish him for "cheating" it comes with a lot of downsides. it's fast because balrog is always looking for ways to cheat.
Problem is it's so bad compared to his other Ultra it might as well not exist. Same goes for a lot of Ultras in SF4.
@@AirLancer Im saying for this particular one is supposed to be bad. they gave him a "good" one for him to actually use and the grab one seems more like a nod to his character and story.
Would it be better if She Hulks super was changed so that her first hit is the most damaging but the rest of the hits are weaker to compensate, or should it basically have a unique effect where the supers wall bounce doesnt cost the "One bounce per combo" system?
The thing is there are already moves that bypass the one wall bounce/ground bounce limits which don't even cost meter
Reset the wall bounce count
1 super that was always bad is actually tied to my favorite DBFZ character. Hit's alternate Lv1.
Before it got buffed it was barely able to combo into other supers, it did less damage than his other Lv1, sometimes it would just whiff if damage scaling was too high and if you did land it just for damage, it wouldn't put you in any advantageous setup. Nowadays some supers create a mixup.
Now it's more reliable, gives a knockdown if you spend enough bar for it and it's TOD central. But it's still underutilized and not good at all because it eats ALL your bar, no matter what. It's specifically a game ender and basically a "win more" super.
You forgot the meter penalty from the launch version of ky dragon install which pretty much prevented faultless defense and supers if you didn't have full meter when activating or gold burst after activation. I think this was the worst aspect of the dragon install at launch.
If rage (Tekken) count as the games supers.
Martial law (sluggish low, -9 on block)
It takes a seeable low and puts a high-damage mid extension on it that gives distance splat, the extension is -9 on block (abnormally bad for a rage drive) and the moves doesn’t fit his tool kit or combo routes.
Finally recently buffed to be unseeable, (with alt input route) is Now a usable rage drive.
Also bad: Gigas, slow unblockable low stun into mixup. Can be cheesed by neutral jump (by entire cast) and some characters can neutralise the mixup anyways even if they get caught.
It’s two mix ups in a row, not in his favour and a wrong guess gets him killed and, he needs walls to get follow up damage, and, he can’t use it in combos.
Watching this video reminds me of another really bad super back in the day.
Chun-Li's Ultra 1 from vanilla/launch SF4.
Chun-Li's combos are usually long which scales down the damage of the ultra alot when used mid combo and she had no good way to combo into it back then.
Not only that, you can't use it mid combo if you're not in a corner, the first hit would always fail to connect because Chun-Li lunges forward by a ton.
So you would to go out of your way to put your opponent in the corner, do a combo with a few normals and juggle your opponent for it to do decent damage.
And even after all of that, the 2nd part of the ultra (the Lightning kicks part) and the 3rd part (The launching kick) can fail to juggle almost half the time, leaving you wide open for a punish.
It was hilarious how broken that Ultra was lol.
Just found your channel this week and I'm addicted to it. Your videos are amazing.
SF6 hype tho!!
I think the fact that so many light autocombos in DBFZ end in command throws that basically are there to make it whiff on block at the end* shows that FG devs are not always thinking of the grab aspect as a strong point or advantage (iow, using it to balance a character downwards)
*yeah, yeah, tick throws, but 1. they can and will be jumped out of just like the Balrog super and 2. you have to use some of the… otherwise less good assists just to try to get them so again I’d argue not an overall plus
I know you can influence Shermie super in vanilla but i don't know if it also works on UM, you had to press 6A to move it to the max range if I'm not wrong
I feel like Alpha had a lot of finicky supers that won't do full damage half the time.
There's definively a few more in KOF 2002 that can make it in the list. You should check Kula's La Cachola. Literally does barely any damage, it takes 2 power gauges to use and you literally have to be in the air on top of the opponent. Plus, the opponent can break free from this move by mashing the buttons and can even strike back before Kula can reach the ground and block after that.
Yall are the Spider-Man and Hawkeye of FGC team-ups. Every one is a banger.
When you were talking about Balrog; I use Shanty in TFH and I feel that. Shanty is a raging demon animation (c grab) that can be jumped on the flash. In order to raw you need to make a serious call out.
I also play Pom, who has an even worse lvl 3. It's a counter that can still be jumped after the opponent hits a button and after the animation goes through. Why?
Pretty sure you can control Shermie's lightning, at least in the OG 2002. You can target 1 of 4 sections of the stage.
Yeah each button covers a different part of the screen. Doesn't affect your chance to get hit though
JMCrofts and LordKnight make a good show, y'all should do more videos together!
Not even talking about Bedman's Hemi-Jack?
13:39 I can already imagine all the Garlic Jr. memes that would come about this.
Even if it's not a good Super, Dirty Bull is good flavor for how Balrog is a dirty boxer - grabbing the opponent, stepping on their foot, and elbow strikes are all against the rules, and the Super has him do all three.
"In modern fighting games you don't have to worry about your super not connecting!" *cries in Potemkin*
LK is entirely right about she-hulk. like there are forced wall bounces that will work even if you've used your wall bounce already on a couple moves in umvc3 already, so stuff like this probably wasnt on purpose.
Launch T7 Law's rage drive was not only a bad super but really bad move
Elizabeth in p4au has an intentionally bad command grab super (4+12!!) because she’s supposed to be the Ultimate Glass Cannon. So no defense allowed
I've played some crummy old fighters in the past, and I think I'll say that a bad super move is one that doesn't properly combo at all. Even if you counter hit, the final punch is blockable and th eentire move is duckable, meaning you'll get punished to hell regardless. This has to do with a design mistake, I think.
I remember playing a lot of vanilla KOF 2002 and you can influence the distance of the lightning . If you press a button after the kiss hits you can press a, b, c ,d to influence it. A hits on the left side corner , b middle screen left side ,c middle screen right side and d right side around the corner and if i remember correctly if you do the super on the right side of the screen the way to influence didn't change .
12:17 “and i just died” 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 i wasn’t ready
18:23 its driving me nuts, what is this SONG? it sounds so familiar but i can't remember what it is or where its from
I like Croft's demeanor 🙏
Very respectful, very chill dude :)
SFA Sodom's grab super. After the activation animation the opponent can just crouch jab punch him out of it.
Saw that thumbnail and I HAD to click. Good video JM!
Always great to see an upload!
When you booted up KoF2k2 I thought you were going to show Chris. His hidden desperation move is to turn into Orochi Chris... who is just selectable from the character select screen and isn't an OP boss character.
can you do a video about infinites in fighting games? for example i've heard people say that Cassandra had an infinite in Soul Calibur 2 but i haven't been able to find how to do it online, or if it was doable only in a specific version of the game
Shermie's suicide caught me so off guard lol XD
Another bad super is Grant's super 2 in Garou. It's good damage but it's so easy to fall out of, super unsafe and way harder to combo into compared to super 1
LK forgot to talk about the meter penalty with ky's DI, you just didn't gain meter for the rest of the round LMAO
She hulk can combo after her super into raw tag. Just do first two hits. It's really good
"...you were 2 pixels away, and ryu is wearing shoes today." XD
Oroshermie's lightning can be avoided by rolling so it doesn't hit Shermie herself, that worked in Vanilla KOF, and you could try and do it very up close so the lightning hits both, not sure if you can still do that in 2002 UM.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Faust's release super: Bone Crushing Excitement.
Worst damage in the game, slow, tiny hitbox, awful positioning (midscreen with low frame advantage, so no good oki), didn't break wall (the ONLY damaging super in the game at the time to not do so), and if you used it in the corner, it took you OUT of the corner. Because that's what Faust players want to do, give up their corner pressure XD
A lot of these things have been patched and remedied now, notably the frame advantage, hitbox size, and wallbreak ability.
Re:Combofiend She Hulk hype from the early umvc3 days. I remember Viscant saying how he had no business winning so much w/She Hulk LOL!
It would be super funny for Capcom to bring the Balrog Command Grab Ultra back at the same power level, but make it unjumpable.
As a little nod, it should play a special animation of Balrog like snatching the leg, then doing a variation of the grab that does a little more damage.
Effectively punishing them for jumping and getting grabbed.
They’re willing to make joke moves, so I dont see that as a bridge too far
I wonder if doing the Balrog grab frame perfect on their standup animation works?
Legitimately that shermie super looks pretty hype
The developers thought so too, as Orochi Shermie’s Climax super in ‘KOF XV’ re-uses it, with the change being that Shermie deliberately electrocutes herself to power herself up before striking the opponent.
@@ryanm.8720 it’s more what makes it bad makes it hype than the visual of is (although that’s pretty cool too) imagine grand finals reset last game of the tournament and shermie starts losing. Then suddenly off of one good hit they get a guaranteed setup into the the unblockable super. Both players will die if it hits them. The whole venue waits with baited breath. Both players can do nothing take their hands off the controller and cross their fingers hoping for the best. How sick would that be?
Sol's HMC in Strive definitely the WORST super in the game by far rn and I'm pretty sure people just forget it exists because of it
I played with U2 Balrog for a while just to try and get rid of some bad habits of fishing for U1 combos. I went from a positive winrate to losing all my matches. His U1 was so good and carried me so hard. The fact that his U2 was one of the worst in the game was ridiculous compared to his U1.
JM "Lighting does strike in the same place twice" Crofts