"For little price do eleven kings sell their daughters" is THE MOST ALPHA CHAD thing anyone in the Legendarium has ever said haha! The fact that he's talking about stealing a Silmaril from Morgoth & is so casual and cheeky about it makes me love Beren even more
One of the best things about this channel is how indepth the videos go. Before your channel I had no clue how much I didn't know about, so you and your knowledge are an absolute goldmine to me and I am legitimately thankful for the content.
Dave weaves so much together in his videos - really beautifully - the threads of the various stories in the lore - but also parts of the life JRR Tolkien and context in which the tales are told. Amazing work!!
I think it was Lúthien herself without knowing it. Her angelic nature as half-Maia released a naturally rejuvenating energy that had a positive effect on Beren’s wellbeing, and I think that’s part of why he fell in love with her.
I’ve been married 28 years, still see my wife as the 20 year old, I first met…her smile melts my soul. She too is Irish decent, pale skin dark (but reddish) hair.
"She's Out of My League." Should be the subtitle for most of the love stories in Tolkien's works. I like the way movie Aragorn approaches the situation, recognizing as a mortal man he is not suitable for Arwen and urging her to take the ship to the West. Whereas the way Beren plays it, not excusing Thingol's haughty behavior, is more than a little presumptuous.
Yet another brilliant video - I admire your storytelling skills immensely, it is such a pleasure to listen to you! :) About B&L - I always loved how Tolkien portrayed the "mixing" of races and different clans/ tribes of Arda as a means to enriched, better, more beautiful, wiser individuals, there is something inherently beautiful about it. :)
I just said the self same thing. I have countlessly listened to the audiobook, but this dude's breaking down is such an added treat, like a companion to the audiobooks.
That picture at :29 of Luthien by Kimberly80 just takes my breath away every time that I see it. That is absolutely how Luthien looked in life. Heart breakingly beautiful.
I just started watching the LOTR and The Hobbit Trilogies a month ago but as I finished it all, questions came upon my head and immediately had to search for the answers. You sir Dave was the one who not only gave me the answers that i sought but also you additionally gave me more details about the Professors Legendarium of which really intrigued me and now I’m a huge fan that loves it all dearly. I have watched every videos and playlist that you have posted and I am looking forward for more. Heck you made me start to read every book Sir Tolkien wrote and now I’m hooked. Annon Allen sir Dave and keep on doing what you do best.
Well met RD!! Now we know why Beren did what he did. All who looked upon her was instantly infatuated, even Morgoth. This had been a great series. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK MELLON! ECTHELION!
I so enjoy your videos and especially that they don’t just repeat the same overdone surface level information that so many have done. Thank you for the work you put into your videos. Another excellent addition!
I think there are parallels between Thingol commanding Beren to steal a silmaril from Morgoth in order to win the hand of Luthien in marriage, and Elrond commanding Aragorn to become the King of Arnor and Gondor in order to win the hand of Arwen. Though Thingol is more jealous while Elrond comes off almost prideful. Yet both set to their prospective son-in-law a task that would appear impossible. There is another in-lore possibility about why Thingol comes off as such a jerk- who in Middle Earth wrote the famous version of Beren and Luthien? Probably Daeron who is the best loremaster, the best singer and the most artistically inspired Elf in all of Middle Earth. Since Daeron admits to his jealousy perhaps he projects his darker feelings onto Thingol's character so that when people hear the story of Beren and Luthien they'll probably consider, as we do, that Thingol was a real jerk towards Beren and then became very possessive of Luthien after Beren set off from Doriath. Even the Silmarillion version of Beren and Luthien has inconsistent characterization of Thingol: from patriarchal and possessive father daring Beren to do the impossible in an attempt to end the union of Beren and Thingol, to then riding with Beren (being astonished by Beren's return to Doriath after the quest) to hunt down Carcharoth and risking his (Thingol's) life. Lastly Beren and Luthien did marry and if Thingol really was that possessive then the story would have mentioned his objections to their forthcoming marriage AFTER Beren and Luthien had returned from the Halls of Mandos.
I am purposely doing all I can not to spoil this story! I know it won’t end well but I don’t know how! You are marvelous 🌈 Dave in these videos. I’m so grateful I found you here!
I think after the last speech Melian has with Thingol about what he has now started: the words "What have I done..?" come to mind. Also total admiration and respect to Beren, who totally keeps his cool and, without any sense/hint of fear, accepts the quest willingly. (Yet again, another fantastic in-depth video and just fuels your love for all things Middle Earth - Tolkien). :-)
I'm rewatching your entire First Age series, and once again I am in awe of Melian. There is something VERY cool about her. If I may suggest a future video, could you perhaps dedicate one of your Tolkien character studies to Melian?
Oh no, I've caught up with the current end of the playlist, now I have to wait days for the next episode! I advocate the Netflix model of dumpling all episodes on the platform at once, so I can binge through properly. Love the playlist!
Such wisdom to really understand you lack,such quest for greatness you have not reached it's goal,yet try you do ,of love and blindness you try to explain and explore yet you do not possess the age and walk to share
The last thing Elu Thingol ever said was one of the sickest burns in the whole story. He said "How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuiviénen years uncounted before the fathers of the stunted people awoke?" So sick of a burn in fact the Dwarves murdered him and everyone else in Menegroth who wasn't able to escape.
I feel like a lot of people completely gloss over the fact that Luthien is literally descended from a Maia. Thingol married a Maia. Imagine your mother/wife literally assisted in the creation of the universe. Imagine being Beren. An even more dramatic serendipity that Aragorn and Arwen thousands of years later. Genuinely crazy thought
Great video beautifully told. ❤ One thing you mentioned that I didn't know was...the high elves are the elves who lived in the light of the trees in Valinor. Does Tolkien ever state what supernatural powers they may of had because of this bathing of light? Interesting. I really enjoyed this video and I love how in depth you go into the stories. I need to go and watch some more of your older videos.. Awesome job.
26:52 Maybe Thingol fears what will happen to Luthien if she and Beren get together. He fears her grief/ experience of mortality. So, yeah, paternalistic protectiveness and jealous possessiveness, but also genuine love and concern for his daughter's fate. But definitely toxic patriarchal behavior.
*Musings on hierarchical romance* There came to pass several romantic couplings (and one suggestion of a romantic longing) between "greater" and "lesser" parties in Middle Earth: Melian & Thingol - maia/elf Lúthien & Beren - elf/man Idril & Tuor - elf/man Arwen & Aragorn - elf/man Mithrellas & Imrazôr - elf/man Nellas & Túrin - elf/teenage boy Within the context of the mythology of Arda, there is often an implied sacrifice (status or mortality) on the part of the "greater" party. One can reasonably ask "what compelled a timeless and heavenly being (Melian) to engage in an intimate relationship with an earthbound being?" And similarly "why would an elf woman submit to the love of a mere mortal with all the obvious implications for the likely span of such a relationship not to mention the potential renunciation of immortality?" The latter part of that question also raises an inconsistency in that it only applied to the unions of Lúthien and Arwen who both knew their choices would mean accepting mortality. By contrast, Tuor is granted immortality (in the Undying Lands no less!) for no especially deserving reason that I can deduce and Mithrellas simply skips off into the woods never to be seen again! (There were suggestions that she may have had a secret tryst with Maglor but these are unconfirmed). Strangely most of these relationships begin through nothing more than chance encounters amidst the trees. And lastly the common theme in all of these relationships is the higher status of the female protaganists.
The conversations between Beren and Thingol reminds me a lot about the norwegian fairy tales of Askeladden, where it is also usually a king that puts men who wants to marry his daughter on impossible quests.
For the Plan of Eru Iluvatar for Beren and Luthien, I think it is much larger(according to cannon). Let me state my reasons: 1) Elwe(later Elu Thingol) , ambassador Orome brings to Valinor to see the light of the trees ages ago, returns back to the Teleri at the lake of awakening. He ushers them to follow Orome as he himself intends, and Surprise(capital S) on the way to Valinor he gets lost for 200 years where some other Teleri wait for him. Decision: Eru Iluvatar interrupts Elwe's intended travel to Valinor, Surprise with capital 's'. 2) In this time he meets Melian the Maia, the wisest of female maiar (assuming they have sexes and Gandalf/Olorin/Mithrandir/Tharkun/TheGreyPilgrim is male) just to fall in love with her and remain in Beleriand as high king of Sindar. Interestingly, the wisest of all female Maiar is living outside of Valinor at that time, unlike nearly all of other Maiar which didn't join Melkor's discord in Ainulindale. Decision: Eru Iluvatar interrupts Melian's place of living and makes is unusual compared to other Maiar. Surprise with capital 's'. 3) Usually, a king needs heirs, and first age of middle earth(others also) seems patriarchal, i.e. Thingol needs a male heir, a son. Even by Elven standards, this is what other Elven kings have along the most of the story on middle earth. (Gil-Galad had no son, the rather distant cousin of him, Elrond, didn't claim high kingship of Noldor, so Gil-Galad was the last High King of the Noldor for instance.) Gil-Galad appears much later chronologically, but Thingol has the likes of Finwe, Fingolfin, Feanor etc. in his time on middle earth. Decision: Eru Iluvatar interrups his family/children issue and thus he only has exceptionally nice and powerful Luthien as his only daughter. Surprise with capital 's'. There are also other cannon facts to point but I think my opinion is clear etc., Eru Iluvatar's interruption, in my opinion, goes way back to the awakening on the matter, does not begin with Beren, Beren is just the continuation of it.
Talk about a May-December relationship on steroids. Excellent points about the age disparity between Luthien and Beren. It also brings up some very practical complications. I mean intellectually and emotionally it would be like an adult being in a romantic relationship with a toddler (other aspects aside).
Not as much as one would think. The age difference is quite substantial, but after a time age differences diminish in relevance outside of experiences, and both have suffered great losses, Beren more than Luthien. Further, while elves do age, it is at a glacial pace compared to men. Further, there are plenty of other relationships where the ages are similarly stark. Galadriel and Celeborn have a substantial age difference if I remember correctly, and I doubt that any difference is the equal of Melian and Thingol. Further Aragorn and Arwen have an age difference nearly as large as this. And Elwing is substantially older than her husband Earendil, and the difference between Earendil's father and mother.
@@jayt9608 Maybe after some point being in a relationship with a much younger, less sophisticated being is a plus for some high elves. Kind the way Albert Einstein eventually chose his simpler and less complicated cousin, over his much more engaged and intellectually demanding first wife.
@@jayt9608when you consider that Elves live forever, Lúthien being 3300 years old was basically equivalent to a human being 30 years old, which is how old Beren was when they met.
@12classics39 That is not technically true as she will be able to recount events about which he knows nothing and has known people that to him have disappeared into the ages of myth. Additionally, her last decades of life will seem but an instant, while for him, it will be his lifetime. Nor is this pairing the only instance of which we see this reality between two people of vastly different ages. Pippin, for instance, bullies, in fun, his commander's pree-teen son, and then informs him that he himself is not even of age as yet, and there was nearly 16 years difference between the two of them. Legolas called the mortals of the fellowship children and explained what the world looked like when he was still young, and for an elf, he is at best barely mature himself, being no more than a 1,000-1,500 himself. In fact, it seems that the weight of years weighs heaviest on the immortals than otherwise. Treebeard, Legolas, Elrond, Gandalf, Gimli, Aragorn, Denethor, and others describe the weight of their years at various points, especially in contrast to Merry and Pippin, who are the two youngest Hobbits. Beren will have had an idea of what his natural age could/should be. However, the women in that family are not so elitist as to marry beneath their station. Melian is at least as far above Thingol as Luthien was above Beren. That being said, the age differences would be one factor in the reason there were only three unions between men and elves in almost 7,000 years.
@@jayt9608 I guess since Lúthien and Beren were both technically adults, that’s what matters. And with all he went through and saw, Beren was very very mature, probably much more so than many Men his age.
What a lovely and detailed video man. I just think everyone who loves the meeting of Beren and Luthien should watch Karliene's "Beren and Luthien" music video, its an absolutely beautiful cover.
Nice. I appreciate your research That said; there are aspects of Tolkien's writing that I alone seem to have derived. They are a bit complicated, but I will try to keep it short(bc this isn't reddit). Here is one of them: Elves were made by Eru and Men were made by Eru. Dwarves were made by Aule, but Eru is was whom gave them life... Now, how should I put this... Hmmmmmm..... Never heard of a Hobbit before...... Who made Hobbits? Where do they come from? Imho: what do you get when you cross an elf with a demigod? What do you get when you cross the offspring of the former relationship with a human. Now mate this offspring with dwarves and wait a few thousand years. When writing a story, one tends to use tools like analogous relationships between different chapters, and tales within the greater story. It's just a theory, but makes sense to me and even if I'm wrong, I should think at least one other person would also get it wrong, but it seems to me that noone's even thought of it. (The other big theory of mine I'll keep to myself for a bit)
Elu Thingol, even in his less than admirable moments, us very relatable. He is the classic over protective father. I mean, hey, I am protective regarding my own daughter; even if unreasonable, Thingol remains very relatable. One might better understand his attitude regarding Beren if one considers the apparent incompatibility between mortal humans and immortal elves. Even Elrond, as we see ib the appendices of the LOTR, had to struggle a bit over Aragorn's love for Arwen, even though he loved Aragorn as a son. Elrond had much more familiarity with these issues than Elu Thingol, and Elroond was perhaps one of the kindest and wisest of Tolkien's characters. So, if Thingol's attitude regarding Beren is somewhat like, "Seriously, you're interested in this bum?" , and this seems funny in the context of such an august elf, consider that he may be a bit of the "every-man" as well. and then, like many of us, he ignores his very impressive wife Melian... like many of us have failed to listen to our wives when we should have. The beauty of Tolkien's characters is that they are at the same time amazingly transcendent characters of wonder, while at the same time being very much like ourselves. In fact, once again, Tolkien used the story of Thingol being a difficult father to teach us the dangers of pride. Later, upon their return, he humbly repents upon hearing of Beren's courage. Tolkien, in many different ways, teaches us the importance of being willing to face our own weaknesses.
I would think that Thingol, of all people, would understand the phenomenon of love at first sight and the idea that a more powerful force works with the devices of destiny or fate.
I love how Beren uses the word “sell” when describing what Thingol is doing, because it’s true. Thingol doesn’t care that Lúthien loves and wants this guy. He sets a price to “sell” his own daughter. Beren very smoothly slips in a criticism of Thingol denying Lúthien her own choice. This shows that he does NOT in fact view Lúthien as property at all. His comment about her being the “treasure he desires” is his way of saying that he treasures her, cherishes her, and would never harm or mistreat her. In fact Tolkien uses the term “treasure” many times as a loving endearment; Celeborn refers to Galadriel as his “treasure,” Aragorn refers to Arwen as his “treasure,” and Elanor comments that Frodo is Sam’s “treasure.” The fact that one of the people to whom the term “treasure” is applied is male (Frodo) is proof enough that Tolkien meant for this word to represent unconditional love and cherishing, NOT to reduce someone to an object. And also Lúthien and Galadriel both have far too much self-respect to even consider marrying guys who would actually treat them like property.
In classic myths a king might want to get rid of some young upstart, but can’t just kill him outright….. and so sends him on some super dangerous quest. It seems to me that that theme or trope plays out here as the Elf King sends this young man on a quest to get the great jewels from the dark lord. One more thing: often when the the young upstart actually succeeds in his nearly impossible quest, it only makes him seem cooler, more respectful.
I would think that Thingol, of all people, would understand the phenomenon of love at first sight and the idea that a more powerful force works with the devices of destiny or fate. But I view him as an overprotective father who wants what's best for Lúthien (with the problem being that it's what he thinks is best) more than someone who thinks of her as his possession. Through such a lens, I can understand his disdain for the lesser being who shouldn't even be in his realm (though, again, the fact that Beren passed through the Girdle must mean something!)
Amazing retelling again! You know what occurred to me? I've been recently listening to Martin Shaw's reading of the Silmarillion (audiobook), but your voice would be much better and pleasant to listen to when you'd be reading all these stories! Just saying 😉😏
Hi Dave, love the video as always I was wondering if at some point you could do a video explaining the life cycles of elves? It will give you a chance to gush about how awesome Cirdan is. 🙂
Been having a wonderful time revisiting these videos but Elwe being the high king is a pretty good argument for him being one of the "awaken" ones, along with a handful of teleri? I forget how many pairs there were
Can someone clarify? I thought that Thingol never actually went to Valinor but that he saw the light of the two trees through Melian and that's why his people were distinguished as the "Grey elves" and not associated in the same way with the rest of the "dark elves". From what I remember, Orome was the only Valar that any of the elves actually met before making the journey to Valinor themselves.
Thingol did go to Valinor because he was one of the three ambassadors - along with Finwë and Ingwë - escorted across the sea by Oromë to essentially check out Valinor and give it a looking over, since most of the Elves were doubtful about accepting the Valar’s invitation to live there, having only ever known Middle-earth. Then the three ambassadors, who were the kings of their respective tribes, sailed back to Middle-earth and basically told their people “hey this place is amazing, it’s gorgeous, it’s stunning, we’ll all be so much happier there, as your leader I approve of this place, let’s go!” Thingol especially loved the beautiful light of Valinor and couldn’t wait to go back and live there. But during the Elves’ journey across Middle-earth to the shoreline, many of the tribes got separated, and Thingol (then called Elwë) wandered alone through the woods one day, trying to find or at least catch a glimpse of his best friend Finwë. Instead he found Melian, and since her face carried the light of Valinor, being with her was enough to satisfy his need to behold that light again, and so they stayed in Middle-earth together.
That is a pretty spicy take on Thingol inheriting the Doom of Mandos. I've thought a lot about that but never heard anyone ever say it before. I don't think that's a common understanding. And I think that the Noldor's Doom was passed down all the way to Earendil. And Thingol's obsession with the Silmaril put the Doom on him and that was passed down to Elwing. And then Earendil and Elwing ended the Doom of Mandos when they sailed to Valinor. So the Doom was on both sides and ended by both sides.
I dunno, if I married a Maia and fathered the "fairest of the Children of Iluvatar", I'd likely act like an insufferable twat too. Thingol''s arrogance in particular gets him into trouble, though, and it's a damn shame.
This is kind of dumb but since the Valar and Maiar could be seen as the children of Eru Iluvatar, and Luthiens mother is a Maiar than that kind of makes Eru Iluvatar her grandpa, so now I’m just imagining each act of fate as Grandpa Iluvatar just being a wingman for his favorite granddaughter. Now the “words were put into his mouth” thing is Grandpa Iluvatar calling up his son in law to give him a piece of his mind and he basically just tells him that Beren has faced dire perils, loves Luthien more than anything and that not even Morgoth can stop this from happening.
Im gone again say that Feanor is judged unjustly by whole fan base. Without him Morgoth would most likely be around when man became awakened. Sorry can't type all the reasons but i can feel that blokes pain. Valars trusted Morgoth more then him when you look at it. 😏
was thinking , imagine if the amazon serie was about the sons of feanor and the oath of feanor. instead of the classic ring speech at the begining by galadriel it would be the doom of mandos by mandos himself would be cool ^^ Really nice videos friend:) i really like the way you tell the story (a litle less analitic than others i guess ^^ )
I wonder if Tolkien Untangled is the father of a daughter? I see no patriarchy or view of property ownership here. What I see is a father's love of his daughter and a suspicion of a stranger.
The biggest giveaway that Beren was an okay guy, and Thingol was overreacting, is that he fulfilled Melian’s prophecy and passed the Girdle. And Melian must have noticed this - how could she not notice her own Girdle being breached, meaning she must’ve known Lúthien was sneaking off to rendezvous with this newcomer for several months before they came to see Thingol. And she clearly wasn’t upset about it or made any fuss, since she never tried to stop Lúthien from seeing Beren. But Thingol didn’t respect his wife’s approval of the match, because not once in Elu Thingol’s life did he ever listen to his wife who carried far more wisdom than he did and deserved respect with which he never treated her. Like, ever.
very impertinent of you to not just discuss Luthien's age but also so belabor the matter. I am surprised young people today would find Thingol to be unduly haughty. In my day, if you dated a rich man's daughter, he would either tell you to get lost outright, or offer a bag of money for you to get lost
Ummm.... dude..... Thingul married a Maia, someone's who's practically a semi-deity, an angel. So him being quite angry at Beren for loving his daughter, especially in light of that Beren's deeds were renowned to even in being songs for many Elves, is quite haughty and a hasty.
I wish amazon had just bought the rights to the story of Beren and Luthien instead of the shit we got from Rings of Power. Would've been a much better show lmao
Awesome analysis. However, I think you take much of the first encounter between Beren and Luthien far too literally. I read much of that passage as poetry, rather than prose. And I think Tolkien intentionally wrote the Silmarillion in this way, to walk the line between truth and myth within the world. Lord of the Rings is written much more as a literal retelling of experienced events. The Silmarillion, in contrast, is more like Herodotus writing about events long, long ago that have evolved into something beyond pure history. Not trying to preach, as I’m sure you know all this, but I thought I would mention it. Beren *feels* these things, though they may not be reality.
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Everything good until you spitted "acting patriarchal" at 25:57. Forget not that "Patriarchal" is another name for "Civilization". Please, don't go Amazon's-tier.
@@tolkienuntangled But nowadays, even Tolkien Society went political, in the very bad way. I think Lúthien would have been dissapointed of a shy Béren in front of her father (He was kind of a stubborn dick, in his own league.)
Well, "Patriarchal" is not another name of "Civilisation". I feel You are putting Your ideology and "politics" a well. Conservatist should stop to being alergic to progressive sensivities. They are and will be.
Yes indeed, how incomprehensibly horrible this patriarchal situation is for this poor woman. Treated like an object..... That a man would be forced to walk into the gates of hell on a virtually guaranteed suicide mission (best case scenario if he's lucky) just to have the chance to be with her....the property....wait I believe I have lost the plot with all these inconvenient facts and reality getting in the way of a good narrative.
I have never been more turned off by your story as when you went on a mini rant about patriarchal storytelling. Patriarchy builds the world. Please don’t do that bro.
Patriarchal like matriarchal are both beautiful. One doesn't exist without the other. We don't need to excuse beauty because the new world is ignorant. I love the these brother,absolutely love these,this legend is also my favorite. Thank you
Listen to your husband "patriarchal" bad. Listen to your damn wife " perfectly fine" not sexist at all.... Man risks his life to win the girl " perfectly okay and expected The girl is awarded to the man as the prize "patriarchal" bad The world is ignorant and totally gone stupid.
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"For little price do eleven kings sell their daughters" is THE MOST ALPHA CHAD thing anyone in the Legendarium has ever said haha! The fact that he's talking about stealing a Silmaril from Morgoth & is so casual and cheeky about it makes me love Beren even more
One of the best things about this channel is how indepth the videos go. Before your channel I had no clue how much I didn't know about, so you and your knowledge are an absolute goldmine to me and I am legitimately thankful for the content.
Dave weaves so much together in his videos - really beautifully - the threads of the various stories in the lore - but also parts of the life JRR Tolkien and context in which the tales are told. Amazing work!!
ME TOO
Tolkien’s description of both meetings of Melian and Thingol and Luthien and Beren are the genesis of love at first sight.
I think Beren's long enchantment was Iluvatar's way of healing his agony after having passed through Ungoliath's realm
I thought the same thing at the end of the last video
I think it was Lúthien herself without knowing it. Her angelic nature as half-Maia released a naturally rejuvenating energy that had a positive effect on Beren’s wellbeing, and I think that’s part of why he fell in love with her.
I just love how Beren's response is basically _"You'd sell your daughter for a shiny rock? Fine, I'll get your dumb jewel."_
I’ve been married 28 years, still see my wife as the 20 year old, I first met…her smile melts my soul. She too is Irish decent, pale skin dark (but reddish) hair.
Lucky bastard. They don't make women like that anymore.
"She's Out of My League." Should be the subtitle for most of the love stories in Tolkien's works. I like the way movie Aragorn approaches the situation, recognizing as a mortal man he is not suitable for Arwen and urging her to take the ship to the West. Whereas the way Beren plays it, not excusing Thingol's haughty behavior, is more than a little presumptuous.
My god, that picture of Luthien with the blue hair is stunning... Just stunning. 🤩😍🤩 Exquisite beauty indeed.
It's perfect
Yet another brilliant video - I admire your storytelling skills immensely, it is such a pleasure to listen to you! :)
About B&L - I always loved how Tolkien portrayed the "mixing" of races and different clans/ tribes of Arda as a means to enriched, better, more beautiful, wiser individuals, there is something inherently beautiful about it. :)
But make no mistake, young lady, since Children of Elves and Men cannot be spotted when playing together, unlike of the many branches of nowadays Men.
I just said the self same thing. I have countlessly listened to the audiobook, but this dude's breaking down is such an added treat, like a companion to the audiobooks.
That picture at :29 of Luthien by Kimberly80 just takes my breath away every time that I see it. That is absolutely how Luthien looked in life. Heart breakingly beautiful.
I just started watching the LOTR and The Hobbit Trilogies a month ago but as I finished it all, questions came upon my head and immediately had to search for the answers. You sir Dave was the one who not only gave me the answers that i sought but also you additionally gave me more details about the Professors Legendarium of which really intrigued me and now I’m a huge fan that loves it all dearly. I have watched every videos and playlist that you have posted and I am looking forward for more. Heck you made me start to read every book Sir Tolkien wrote and now I’m hooked. Annon Allen sir Dave and keep on doing what you do best.
Well met RD!! Now we know why Beren did what he did. All who looked upon her was instantly infatuated, even Morgoth. This had been a great series. KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK MELLON!
ECTHELION!
These playlists are absolutely amazing, how you plan out and summarize everything clearly is spectacular!
Thanks! I'm really glad you enjoy them.
A video cometh from Rainbow Dave,
his content above is all the rave,
I must watch it now for I’ve waited long,
accompanied by my trusty bong.
Yay. I’m ready for this video and I’m back to well and baking. Lúthien is one of my favorite characters in all of Tolkien’s works.
I so enjoy your videos and especially that they don’t just repeat the same overdone surface level information that so many have done. Thank you for the work you put into your videos. Another excellent addition!
I think there are parallels between Thingol commanding Beren to steal a silmaril from Morgoth in order to win the hand of Luthien in marriage, and Elrond commanding Aragorn to become the King of Arnor and Gondor in order to win the hand of Arwen. Though Thingol is more jealous while Elrond comes off almost prideful. Yet both set to their prospective son-in-law a task that would appear impossible.
There is another in-lore possibility about why Thingol comes off as such a jerk- who in Middle Earth wrote the famous version of Beren and Luthien? Probably Daeron who is the best loremaster, the best singer and the most artistically inspired Elf in all of Middle Earth. Since Daeron admits to his jealousy perhaps he projects his darker feelings onto Thingol's character so that when people hear the story of Beren and Luthien they'll probably consider, as we do, that Thingol was a real jerk towards Beren and then became very possessive of Luthien after Beren set off from Doriath.
Even the Silmarillion version of Beren and Luthien has inconsistent characterization of Thingol: from patriarchal and possessive father daring Beren to do the impossible in an attempt to end the union of Beren and Thingol, to then riding with Beren (being astonished by Beren's return to Doriath after the quest) to hunt down Carcharoth and risking his (Thingol's) life. Lastly Beren and Luthien did marry and if Thingol really was that possessive then the story would have mentioned his objections to their forthcoming marriage AFTER Beren and Luthien had returned from the Halls of Mandos.
I am purposely doing all I can not to spoil this story! I know it won’t end well but I don’t know how! You are marvelous 🌈 Dave in these videos. I’m so grateful I found you here!
I think after the last speech Melian has with Thingol about what he has now started: the words "What have I done..?" come to mind. Also total admiration and respect to Beren, who totally keeps his cool and, without any sense/hint of fear, accepts the quest willingly. (Yet again, another fantastic in-depth video and just fuels your love for all things Middle Earth - Tolkien). :-)
Beren and Luthien is my most favorite story in the legendarium, aside from Aragorn and Arwen.
I'm rewatching your entire First Age series, and once again I am in awe of Melian. There is something VERY cool about her. If I may suggest a future video, could you perhaps dedicate one of your Tolkien character studies to Melian?
So happy I found this channel, keeping me very occupied during my long work hours
Oh no, I've caught up with the current end of the playlist, now I have to wait days for the next episode! I advocate the Netflix model of dumpling all episodes on the platform at once, so I can binge through properly. Love the playlist!
New videos coming soon...I promise
The quality of your videos makes it obvious you put a ton of work into them, and I am so thankful that you do! Can't wait for the next installment!
Such wisdom to really understand you lack,such quest for greatness you have not reached it's goal,yet try you do ,of love and blindness you try to explain and explore yet you do not possess the age and walk to share
The last thing Elu Thingol ever said was one of the sickest burns in the whole story. He said "How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuiviénen years uncounted before the fathers of the stunted people awoke?"
So sick of a burn in fact the Dwarves murdered him and everyone else in Menegroth who wasn't able to escape.
I feel like a lot of people completely gloss over the fact that Luthien is literally descended from a Maia. Thingol married a Maia. Imagine your mother/wife literally assisted in the creation of the universe. Imagine being Beren. An even more dramatic serendipity that Aragorn and Arwen thousands of years later. Genuinely crazy thought
The luckiest man to walk this earth is the one who finds a love like Beren and Lúthien.
Absolutely loving the way you tell the stories.
Yay, a video about my favourite character.
Can't wait for the next chapter. As always I love how detailed your versions are 🥰🥰🥰
Thank you and please keep up the telling of this wonderful story
helping with the decorating... why did that make me laugh... one of the most badass elves in existence "no I don't like the color of the drapes"
Master Story Teller, let's go!
I'm gonna listen again for Valentine's.💞
I think you're my new favorite channel!
Oh Rainbow Dave, you killed me with "Thingol's whole story should be called 'Listen to your damn wife!' line 😂
Absolutely amazing episode, loved every minute of it.
Great video beautifully told. ❤ One thing you mentioned that I didn't know was...the high elves are the elves who lived in the light of the trees in Valinor. Does Tolkien ever state what supernatural powers they may of had because of this bathing of light? Interesting. I really enjoyed this video and I love how in depth you go into the stories. I need to go and watch some more of your older videos.. Awesome job.
26:52 Maybe Thingol fears what will happen to Luthien if she and Beren get together. He fears her grief/ experience of mortality. So, yeah, paternalistic protectiveness and jealous possessiveness, but also genuine love and concern for his daughter's fate. But definitely toxic patriarchal behavior.
*Musings on hierarchical romance*
There came to pass several romantic couplings (and one suggestion of a romantic longing) between "greater" and "lesser" parties in Middle Earth:
Melian & Thingol - maia/elf
Lúthien & Beren - elf/man
Idril & Tuor - elf/man
Arwen & Aragorn - elf/man
Mithrellas & Imrazôr - elf/man
Nellas & Túrin - elf/teenage boy
Within the context of the mythology of Arda, there is often an implied sacrifice (status or mortality) on the part of the "greater" party. One can reasonably ask "what compelled a timeless and heavenly being (Melian) to engage in an intimate relationship with an earthbound being?"
And similarly "why would an elf woman submit to the love of a mere mortal with all the obvious implications for the likely span of such a relationship not to mention the potential renunciation of immortality?"
The latter part of that question also raises an inconsistency in that it only applied to the unions of Lúthien and Arwen who both knew their choices would mean accepting mortality. By contrast, Tuor is granted immortality (in the Undying Lands no less!) for no especially deserving reason that I can deduce and Mithrellas simply skips off into the woods never to be seen again! (There were suggestions that she may have had a secret tryst with Maglor but these are unconfirmed).
Strangely most of these relationships begin through nothing more than chance encounters amidst the trees.
And lastly the common theme in all of these relationships is the higher status of the female protaganists.
You seem to forget Aegnor and andreph the male elf fell in love with the mortal Woman and vice-versa.
The conversations between Beren and Thingol reminds me a lot about the norwegian fairy tales of Askeladden, where it is also usually a king that puts men who wants to marry his daughter on impossible quests.
For the Plan of Eru Iluvatar for Beren and Luthien, I think it is much larger(according to cannon). Let me state my reasons:
1) Elwe(later Elu Thingol) , ambassador Orome brings to Valinor to see the light of the trees ages ago, returns back to the Teleri at the lake of awakening. He ushers them to follow Orome as he himself intends, and Surprise(capital S) on the way to Valinor he gets lost for 200 years where some other Teleri wait for him.
Decision: Eru Iluvatar interrupts Elwe's intended travel to Valinor, Surprise with capital 's'.
2) In this time he meets Melian the Maia, the wisest of female maiar (assuming they have sexes and Gandalf/Olorin/Mithrandir/Tharkun/TheGreyPilgrim is male) just to fall in love with her and remain in Beleriand as high king of Sindar. Interestingly, the wisest of all female Maiar is living outside of Valinor at that time, unlike nearly all of other Maiar which didn't join Melkor's discord in Ainulindale.
Decision: Eru Iluvatar interrupts Melian's place of living and makes is unusual compared to other Maiar. Surprise with capital 's'.
3) Usually, a king needs heirs, and first age of middle earth(others also) seems patriarchal, i.e. Thingol needs a male heir, a son. Even by Elven standards, this is what other Elven kings have along the most of the story on middle earth. (Gil-Galad had no son, the rather distant cousin of him, Elrond, didn't claim high kingship of Noldor, so Gil-Galad was the last High King of the Noldor for instance.) Gil-Galad appears much later chronologically, but Thingol has the likes of Finwe, Fingolfin, Feanor etc. in his time on middle earth.
Decision: Eru Iluvatar interrups his family/children issue and thus he only has exceptionally nice and powerful Luthien as his only daughter. Surprise with capital 's'.
There are also other cannon facts to point but I think my opinion is clear etc., Eru Iluvatar's interruption, in my opinion, goes way back to the awakening on the matter, does not begin with Beren, Beren is just the continuation of it.
Talk about a May-December relationship on steroids. Excellent points about the age disparity between Luthien and Beren. It also brings up some very practical complications. I mean intellectually and emotionally it would be like an adult being in a romantic relationship with a toddler (other aspects aside).
Not as much as one would think. The age difference is quite substantial, but after a time age differences diminish in relevance outside of experiences, and both have suffered great losses, Beren more than Luthien. Further, while elves do age, it is at a glacial pace compared to men.
Further, there are plenty of other relationships where the ages are similarly stark. Galadriel and Celeborn have a substantial age difference if I remember correctly, and I doubt that any difference is the equal of Melian and Thingol. Further Aragorn and Arwen have an age difference nearly as large as this. And Elwing is substantially older than her husband Earendil, and the difference between Earendil's father and mother.
@@jayt9608 Maybe after some point being in a relationship with a much younger, less sophisticated being is a plus for some high elves. Kind the way Albert Einstein eventually chose his simpler and less complicated cousin, over his much more engaged and intellectually demanding first wife.
@@jayt9608when you consider that Elves live forever, Lúthien being 3300 years old was basically equivalent to a human being 30 years old, which is how old Beren was when they met.
@12classics39
That is not technically true as she will be able to recount events about which he knows nothing and has known people that to him have disappeared into the ages of myth. Additionally, her last decades of life will seem but an instant, while for him, it will be his lifetime.
Nor is this pairing the only instance of which we see this reality between two people of vastly different ages. Pippin, for instance, bullies, in fun, his commander's pree-teen son, and then informs him that he himself is not even of age as yet, and there was nearly 16 years difference between the two of them.
Legolas called the mortals of the fellowship children and explained what the world looked like when he was still young, and for an elf, he is at best barely mature himself, being no more than a 1,000-1,500 himself.
In fact, it seems that the weight of years weighs heaviest on the immortals than otherwise. Treebeard, Legolas, Elrond, Gandalf, Gimli, Aragorn, Denethor, and others describe the weight of their years at various points, especially in contrast to Merry and Pippin, who are the two youngest Hobbits.
Beren will have had an idea of what his natural age could/should be. However, the women in that family are not so elitist as to marry beneath their station. Melian is at least as far above Thingol as Luthien was above Beren. That being said, the age differences would be one factor in the reason there were only three unions between men and elves in almost 7,000 years.
@@jayt9608 I guess since Lúthien and Beren were both technically adults, that’s what matters. And with all he went through and saw, Beren was very very mature, probably much more so than many Men his age.
What a lovely and detailed video man.
I just think everyone who loves the meeting of Beren and Luthien should watch Karliene's "Beren and Luthien" music video, its an absolutely beautiful cover.
And Euriele's Luthien' Lament, as well as Elven Oratorio 3
I'll take Clamavi de Profundis's rendition over Karliene's everytime, but we can agree to disagree.
I've done a Beren and Luthien to a variation on folk tune "Naektergalen", a literal translation of "Tinuviel" into Swedish.
Love it, Dave!
Nice.
I appreciate your research
That said; there are aspects of Tolkien's writing that I alone seem to have derived. They are a bit complicated, but I will try to keep it short(bc this isn't reddit).
Here is one of them:
Elves were made by Eru and Men were made by Eru. Dwarves were made by Aule, but Eru is was whom gave them life...
Now, how should I put this...
Hmmmmmm.....
Never heard of a Hobbit before......
Who made Hobbits? Where do they come from?
Imho: what do you get when you cross an elf with a demigod? What do you get when you cross the offspring of the former relationship with a human. Now mate this offspring with dwarves and wait a few thousand years.
When writing a story, one tends to use tools like analogous relationships between different chapters, and tales within the greater story.
It's just a theory, but makes sense to me and even if I'm wrong, I should think at least one other person would also get it wrong, but it seems to me that noone's even thought of it.
(The other big theory of mine I'll keep to myself for a bit)
Elu Thingol, even in his less than admirable moments, us very relatable. He is the classic over protective father. I mean, hey, I am protective regarding my own daughter; even if unreasonable, Thingol remains very relatable. One might better understand his attitude regarding Beren if one considers the apparent incompatibility between mortal humans and immortal elves. Even Elrond, as we see ib the appendices of the LOTR, had to struggle a bit over Aragorn's love for Arwen, even though he loved Aragorn as a son. Elrond had much more familiarity with these issues than Elu Thingol, and Elroond was perhaps one of the kindest and wisest of Tolkien's characters. So, if Thingol's attitude regarding Beren is somewhat like, "Seriously, you're interested in this bum?" , and this seems funny in the context of such an august elf, consider that he may be a bit of the "every-man" as well. and then, like many of us, he ignores his very impressive wife Melian... like many of us have failed to listen to our wives when we should have. The beauty of Tolkien's characters is that they are at the same time amazingly transcendent characters of wonder, while at the same time being very much like ourselves. In fact, once again, Tolkien used the story of Thingol being a difficult father to teach us the dangers of pride. Later, upon their return, he humbly repents upon hearing of Beren's courage. Tolkien, in many different ways, teaches us the importance of being willing to face our own weaknesses.
I would think that Thingol, of all people, would understand the phenomenon of love at first sight and the idea that a more powerful force works with the devices of destiny or fate.
@@dembro27
Yes, one would hope so, yet stories are woven from struggles with character weakness.
Man I love this so much!
I love how Beren uses the word “sell” when describing what Thingol is doing, because it’s true. Thingol doesn’t care that Lúthien loves and wants this guy. He sets a price to “sell” his own daughter. Beren very smoothly slips in a criticism of Thingol denying Lúthien her own choice. This shows that he does NOT in fact view Lúthien as property at all. His comment about her being the “treasure he desires” is his way of saying that he treasures her, cherishes her, and would never harm or mistreat her. In fact Tolkien uses the term “treasure” many times as a loving endearment; Celeborn refers to Galadriel as his “treasure,” Aragorn refers to Arwen as his “treasure,” and Elanor comments that Frodo is Sam’s “treasure.” The fact that one of the people to whom the term “treasure” is applied is male (Frodo) is proof enough that Tolkien meant for this word to represent unconditional love and cherishing, NOT to reduce someone to an object. And also Lúthien and Galadriel both have far too much self-respect to even consider marrying guys who would actually treat them like property.
In classic myths a king might want to get rid of some young upstart, but can’t just kill him outright….. and so sends him on some super dangerous quest.
It seems to me that that theme or trope plays out here as the Elf King sends this young man on a quest to get the great jewels from the dark lord.
One more thing: often when the the young upstart actually succeeds in his nearly impossible quest, it only makes him seem cooler, more respectful.
Great!
I would think that Thingol, of all people, would understand the phenomenon of love at first sight and the idea that a more powerful force works with the devices of destiny or fate. But I view him as an overprotective father who wants what's best for Lúthien (with the problem being that it's what he thinks is best) more than someone who thinks of her as his possession. Through such a lens, I can understand his disdain for the lesser being who shouldn't even be in his realm (though, again, the fact that Beren passed through the Girdle must mean something!)
Amazing retelling again! You know what occurred to me? I've been recently listening to Martin Shaw's reading of the Silmarillion (audiobook), but your voice would be much better and pleasant to listen to when you'd be reading all these stories! Just saying 😉😏
Hi Dave, love the video as always I was wondering if at some point you could do a video explaining the life cycles of elves? It will give you a chance to gush about how awesome Cirdan is. 🙂
That's a really good idea. I'll add it to my list of future videos!
Been having a wonderful time revisiting these videos but Elwe being the high king is a pretty good argument for him being one of the "awaken" ones, along with a handful of teleri? I forget how many pairs there were
wow your videos are gems
Can someone clarify?
I thought that Thingol never actually went to Valinor but that he saw the light of the two trees through Melian and that's why his people were distinguished as the "Grey elves" and not associated in the same way with the rest of the "dark elves".
From what I remember, Orome was the only Valar that any of the elves actually met before making the journey to Valinor themselves.
Thingol did go to Valinor because he was one of the three ambassadors - along with Finwë and Ingwë - escorted across the sea by Oromë to essentially check out Valinor and give it a looking over, since most of the Elves were doubtful about accepting the Valar’s invitation to live there, having only ever known Middle-earth. Then the three ambassadors, who were the kings of their respective tribes, sailed back to Middle-earth and basically told their people “hey this place is amazing, it’s gorgeous, it’s stunning, we’ll all be so much happier there, as your leader I approve of this place, let’s go!” Thingol especially loved the beautiful light of Valinor and couldn’t wait to go back and live there. But during the Elves’ journey across Middle-earth to the shoreline, many of the tribes got separated, and Thingol (then called Elwë) wandered alone through the woods one day, trying to find or at least catch a glimpse of his best friend Finwë. Instead he found Melian, and since her face carried the light of Valinor, being with her was enough to satisfy his need to behold that light again, and so they stayed in Middle-earth together.
Nice work dude
Anyone who has met their love, she doesn't compare.
That is a pretty spicy take on Thingol inheriting the Doom of Mandos. I've thought a lot about that but never heard anyone ever say it before. I don't think that's a common understanding. And I think that the Noldor's Doom was passed down all the way to Earendil. And Thingol's obsession with the Silmaril put the Doom on him and that was passed down to Elwing. And then Earendil and Elwing ended the Doom of Mandos when they sailed to Valinor. So the Doom was on both sides and ended by both sides.
I dunno, if I married a Maia and fathered the "fairest of the Children of Iluvatar", I'd likely act like an insufferable twat too.
Thingol''s arrogance in particular gets him into trouble, though, and it's a damn shame.
This is kind of dumb but since the Valar and Maiar could be seen as the children of Eru Iluvatar, and Luthiens mother is a Maiar than that kind of makes Eru Iluvatar her grandpa, so now I’m just imagining each act of fate as Grandpa Iluvatar just being a wingman for his favorite granddaughter.
Now the “words were put into his mouth” thing is Grandpa Iluvatar calling up his son in law to give him a piece of his mind and he basically just tells him that Beren has faced dire perils, loves Luthien more than anything and that not even Morgoth can stop this from happening.
Honestly, if I met someone that beautiful who actually liked me like that, I'd probably freeze on the spot for several months too.
Ironically my name is Hoapinga. Means Road to Heaven. I just loved this story before I take her name🥰✌️
So Beren is dating a multiple thousand years old grandma. He is like a toddler in age.
Have you played the mobile game? It's pretty fun.
Im gone again say that Feanor is judged unjustly by whole fan base. Without him Morgoth would most likely be around when man became awakened. Sorry can't type all the reasons but i can feel that blokes pain. Valars trusted Morgoth more then him when you look at it. 😏
Beren got therapy session commissioned by the Lord
was thinking , imagine if the amazon serie was about the sons of feanor and the oath of feanor. instead of the classic ring speech at the begining by galadriel it would be the doom of mandos by mandos himself would be cool ^^
Really nice videos friend:) i really like the way you tell the story (a litle less analitic than others i guess ^^ )
Well, Thingol still leaves his daughter the choice of getting married to Beren in case he returns.
Wait... Isn't galadriel the grandmother of arwen?
On her mother’s side, yes. On her father’s side, she’s the granddaughter of Elwing - granddaughter of Beren and Luthien.
@@tolkienuntangled right! Mother of elros and elrond, ooh right! I understand now! Thank you mate!
Don't be hard on Thingol; if you don't have a daughter, you can't understand.
Luthien the cradle robber.
I wonder if Tolkien Untangled is the father of a daughter? I see no patriarchy or view of property ownership here. What I see is a father's love of his daughter and a suspicion of a stranger.
He imprisons her a few scenes later.
@@tolkienuntangled An elf's version of grounding his daughter?
The biggest giveaway that Beren was an okay guy, and Thingol was overreacting, is that he fulfilled Melian’s prophecy and passed the Girdle. And Melian must have noticed this - how could she not notice her own Girdle being breached, meaning she must’ve known Lúthien was sneaking off to rendezvous with this newcomer for several months before they came to see Thingol. And she clearly wasn’t upset about it or made any fuss, since she never tried to stop Lúthien from seeing Beren. But Thingol didn’t respect his wife’s approval of the match, because not once in Elu Thingol’s life did he ever listen to his wife who carried far more wisdom than he did and deserved respect with which he never treated her. Like, ever.
very impertinent of you to not just discuss Luthien's age but also so belabor the matter. I am surprised young people today would find Thingol to be unduly haughty. In my day, if you dated a rich man's daughter, he would either tell you to get lost outright, or offer a bag of money for you to get lost
Ummm.... dude..... Thingul married a Maia, someone's who's practically a semi-deity, an angel. So him being quite angry at Beren for loving his daughter, especially in light of that Beren's deeds were renowned to even in being songs for many Elves, is quite haughty and a hasty.
I wish amazon had just bought the rights to the story of Beren and Luthien instead of the shit we got from Rings of Power. Would've been a much better show lmao
Tolkien didn't want the Silmarillion rights sold
Who he wanted to marry Luthien
Awesome analysis. However, I think you take much of the first encounter between Beren and Luthien far too literally. I read much of that passage as poetry, rather than prose. And I think Tolkien intentionally wrote the Silmarillion in this way, to walk the line between truth and myth within the world. Lord of the Rings is written much more as a literal retelling of experienced events. The Silmarillion, in contrast, is more like Herodotus writing about events long, long ago that have evolved into something beyond pure history. Not trying to preach, as I’m sure you know all this, but I thought I would mention it. Beren *feels* these things, though they may not be reality.
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Everything good until you spitted "acting patriarchal" at 25:57. Forget not that "Patriarchal" is another name for "Civilization". Please, don't go Amazon's-tier.
There are good types of patriarchal behaviour and bad types of patriarchal behaviour. That's not political, it's just a fact.
@@tolkienuntangled But nowadays, even Tolkien Society went political, in the very bad way. I think Lúthien would have been dissapointed of a shy Béren in front of her father (He was kind of a stubborn dick, in his own league.)
Well, "Patriarchal" is not another name of "Civilisation". I feel You are putting Your ideology and "politics" a well.
Conservatist should stop to being alergic to progressive sensivities. They are and will be.
Yes indeed, how incomprehensibly horrible this patriarchal situation is for this poor woman. Treated like an object..... That a man would be forced to walk into the gates of hell on a virtually guaranteed suicide mission (best case scenario if he's lucky) just to have the chance to be with her....the property....wait I believe I have lost the plot with all these inconvenient facts and reality getting in the way of a good narrative.
Patriarchal? Really Dave? Using made up terms? How disappointing.
25:59 Stop. Put the woke down. Slowly.
Don’t bring modern politics into this. Your values are not timeless the ones in these books are.
I have never been more turned off by your story as when you went on a mini rant about patriarchal storytelling. Patriarchy builds the world. Please don’t do that bro.
Builds the world??
Patriarchal like matriarchal are both beautiful. One doesn't exist without the other. We don't need to excuse beauty because the new world is ignorant. I love the these brother,absolutely love these,this legend is also my favorite. Thank you
Listen to your husband "patriarchal" bad.
Listen to your damn wife " perfectly fine" not sexist at all....
Man risks his life to win the girl " perfectly okay and expected
The girl is awarded to the man as the prize "patriarchal" bad
The world is ignorant and totally gone stupid.