Don't know if anyone noticed the difference. Chill mode's regenerative braking is more "smooth". This is the main reason I use it. In standard mode if i release the gas pedal the "stopping" is much quicker, vs in "chill" mode. End result may not matter much to the driver, but is a HUGE difference to passengers. My wife will literally throw up when I drive in "standard" mode while "chill" mode is more bearable. Sure, I can use "standard mode" and when letting go the gas pedal, let go super slower and sensitive. But that's such a big hassle and big effort, it takes the joy out of driving the car. So, CHILL mode is just more smooth, for the passenger. Anyone else feel the same?
Presumably the only difference is that chill mode forces you to drive more economically. Physics is physics. Nothing prevents you from driving as economically without chill mode.
@@loneskullkid If it is like in the fossils, the accelerator response should be sharper, hense higher consumption. The ECO mode i fossils also absorb the little movements of the foot on the throttle, and therefore, less consumption too. Would it be possible that in the EVs we have a similar feature?
@@HikaruSorano05 if you drive in a cold climate difference beetwen chill and sport mode is nullified by battery heater or with heat scavenging (moving the heat from battery and power electronics to cabin)
I believe it depends on environment where person drives. I am quite sure if it would be checking acceleration and deceleration, there would be some difference. E.g. doing 150 times from 0 - 60 with & w/o chill mode, there would be some difference, as I believe there would be less heat loss on battery due to pulling higher power on sport mode. Of course, if you do only highway driving and accelerate only few times, there will be no difference whatsoever. It is completely same logic with ECO mode in other cars...
Can you do the same test driving in the City? Using constant speed on the high way does not make much sense to compare Chill / Sport. The difference will be effective when you have many times accelerating / stopping for traffic lights etc. I am convinced if you do a city route with many traffic lights you will see the difference. btw I love your video's, good work!
This - when you are driving at a set speed the power output from the motors will be the same on chill and sport mode..... its only when accelerating you will use the extra available power from sport mode Bjorn
I found ECO mode on the Zoe made no difference to economy (assuming I drove at the same speed). I never used it because it killed the acceleration on an already slow car and the heating didn't work well.
The power-loss in a electric motor is proportional to the current squared (I^2) and consequently the motor torque squared. The power-loss in a battery is also proportional to the current pulled. The theory will predict no difference in consumption when driving on highway since keeping a steady speed at highway require the same tourqe and consequently the same current from the battery, chill mode or sport mode. The difference will show in city traffic because the chill mode will make your right foot "less heavy". Being a aggressive driver will increase your consumption. If you already are driving carefully the chill mode will not affect your consumption. Another conclusion from the theory are that avoiding regenerative braking for the benefit of coasting will lower your consumption.
The battery loss actually also goes up with the square of the current pulled from it - a given current, gives a certain drop in output voltage, due to the internal resistance of the battery. Now if you double the current draw, that voltage drop will also double. 2 times the voltage drop x 2 times the current = 4 times the power loss. Most of the power loss is probably in the battery (since that's the main limiting factor for most electric cars) and we can actually see how much in the video, by looking at the battery voltage (even if we don't know the current, we know that the power loss is proportional to the voltage drop - the current can be calculated from "battery power" divided by voltage though, but not needed EDIT: I saw after writing this that current is also shown, haha - but same thing still applies) For example during the fast acceleration at 1:20, it drops from about 390 V to 310 at peak current draw (wich is an 80 V drop) - that's 80 / 390 = 0,20512... or about 20,5 % of the power lost as heat in the battery. During the slower "chill mode" acceleration it dropped to 360, so that's just about 7,7 % power loss. It's pretty obvious that the only thing "chill mode" does, is limiting current draw from the battery by limiting available power. Apperently it's better to just have it in "sport mode" all the time and if you want to save power, just don't push the throttle more than like half way. The slow throttle response does nothing to save energy - it just takes away much of the fun by an electric car and gives back the feeling of an ICE car, haha
If you double the current you also are decreasing the amount of time it takes to reach speed. So there has to be an acceleration sweet spot. Has anyone calculated this?
@@bluetrepidation there's no sweet spot, the longer the acceleration the better. Also it helps doubly because you're going slower (with less aero drag) for longer. But at some point you get into diminishing returns so don't go crawling in traffic just to save energy.
@@bluetrepidation The losses go up more than the time to get up to speed goes down, so to say. Accelerate slow also means you will go slow for a longer distance, so your average speed and average air resistance throughout the drive will decrease. Simply, the slower you go, the less energy it takes. But there might be a sweet spot (a compromise) between having fun driving and energy consumption. If you do a really boring slow accelerations, you may get very low energy consumption - but not very much lower compared to if you accelerate like half throttle for example. But if you really floors it every time, the consumption will be significantly higher. So there may be a sweet spot, where you can still have some fun, but keep a reasonably low consumption. Same applies for speed, as air resistance increases with the square of the speed. Athough that's also very situation dependent - depending on driving distances and chargers available. For long trips where you really need range, it will actually be a sweet spot for your "cruising speed", where your total travel time (and average speed for the whole trip) is the lowest. If you go too slow, you will spend so much time for the drive it self, that even if you make less charging stops, it will still take longer (not to mention that if you are like me and don't like to go slow - a 3 hour trip is nicer if it consists of 2:20 driving and a 40 min charge stop, compared to a slow boring 3 hour non stop drive). But if you go too fast, you will run out of juice so often that you will spend too much time charging. I would guess highway cruising speeds of 140-170 km/h (depending on battery size) in low traffic, is pretty much the optimum speed in a Tesla, if there are fast chargers available along the way.
I think chill mode would make a potential difference when accelerating and slowing more than when driving at a steady pace so trips around town doing stop/start driving would benefit from chill mode as it pulls less amps from the battery. I suspect when you yoyo to warm the battery you would see a differencebetween sport and chill modes. Maybe worth a try.
The point was that if you drive normally or carefully, the mode doesn't matter. It's like putting a brick behind the acceleration pedal: Chill Mode just prevents the max output, but you can drive just the same as if you had Chill Mode on by not pushing the pedal to the metal with Standard Mode.
@@rodrigosousa9049 yea that’s true. Teslas are very sharp and so people coming from ICE cars might find it difficult to be super precise. However so many people say chill mode saves energy, which isn’t true!
@@harsimranbansal5355 yup doesn't save energy, but it make it easier to get a lower consumption if you are in town on stop and go traffic. I have a model X I use chill mode for long road trips so I can drive without thinking about how hard I am stepping on the throttle, it's not fun when you just want to accelerate a bit and then the 700 or 600 hp kick in, I like chill mode and I think it's usefull for some drivers.
Having standard mode or Sport mode active is in my opinion safer. You can accelerate out of dangerous situations, like a rear ending or side collision. Considering you can handle the acceleration though.
@@FIGHTTHECABLE How often do you really need to accelerate out of dangerous situations? I would argue that it's far far more common that people into dangerous situations because of too much speed. Of course it's a bit silly to buy a car with hundreds of kilowatts of power and restrict it in the software to potentially save a little bit of money.
@@PontusEgnell I had my first situation 1 Week after buying the car. Was on the left lane as traffic came to an abrupt stop. Saw car coming in fast from behind and decided to quickly switch to the free right lane and accelerate. Also roundabouts and enterances onto high traffic roads it is useful to gain speed fast.
So this has confirmed my suspicion: chill mode or eco mode on other cars don't make them use less energy, only they restrict the throttle/performance of the vehicle. If you drive carefully without flooring the pedal they don't change a thing, they only help those who usually tend to use the throttle more radically. I would argue that chill/eco mode is worse for experienced and mindful drivers since they don't lower the consumption but they restrict the cars performance hence it won't be available when it's useful/necessary in a dangerous situation for instance.
i mainly use chill mode for getting a better feeling of the pedal while driving in cities/parking (which i mostly do aside from some highway where autopilot drives and i dont care about acceleration)
I think you will see a more significant difference if you test in the city. Chill mode is much more efficient when you’re in stop and go traffic. At highway speeds, you won’t see a big difference - especially if you are cruising with auto pilot.
It's more economical in start-stop traffic but main use is to reduce slipping in rain/ice. When I first got the car I easily over accelerated from a stop on intersections in a sense that the cars behind me are 10-15 car lengths behind. Using unnecessary more electricity in the process. After a while, you learn how to feather the pedal in standard mode so you don't need to enable chill mode anymore.
I thank you for this. Years later. I have a 21 model 3 lr. I was curious if it made it better for my infant. Because it's less punchy, but also more economic. Because it really has no pop. I'm glad to know it's not significant. I'll keep it in chill but only for him now. The moment he's front facing. It's on sport
What Bjorn fails to realize is roads in some countries aren't as well maintained as his. Chill mode can help feathering the throttle in these conditions. It also plays some psychological roll to get you to coast further to a stop which does save energy. Huge difference in tire wear too.
I would like to see you Björn doing a explanational video of ECO-driving, go trough the theory of common settings on EVs and how they would effect the consumption in theory. for example explain to people how different ways of slowing down your car will effect your energy consumption. from best to worst. coasting to slow down by friction and drag ---> light regenerative braking ----> heavy generative breaking ----> frictional breaks. Fun fact: the equation for kinetic energy is E=(m*V^2)/2 m=mass, V=Velicity this means that if you slow down your car with frictional breaks to half your original speed, you have wasted 3/4 of your kinetic energy to heat in your breaks. Please give a thumbs up on this comment if you would like to see Björn making this video.
I drive often in winter short trips of 2-8km with my 2020 M3, because I hardly use the bike than. I use a climate setting o only 16°C and fan speed 1 or 2 and seat heating. I have a jacket on anyway, so that is not problem and a ICE car also would not get warm on 3km. With that setting I use 170Wh/km instead of 230Wh/km. On Long trips of course I heat to 20°C to stay comfortable. During the week I only drive such short trips (also due to the pandemic), so it makes a huge difference in consumption.
check out what the manual says about cars with the heat pump: You can improve efficiency of the cabin heating by reducing your selected acceleration mode, allowing the heat pump to take more heat from the battery to efficiently heat the cabin instead of maintaining the battery’s ability to provide peak acceleration performance. ‘Chill’ is the most energy efficient mode, especially in cold weather. To adjust your acceleration mode, tap ‘Controls’ > ‘Pedals & Steering’ > ‘Acceleration’ from the vehicle touchscreen to adjust the amount of acceleration you experience when driving. Select from one of the following modes: ‘Chill’ limits acceleration for a gentle ride and optimizing cabin heating in cold weather. Note: When Chill is selected, Chill displays on the touchscreen above the driving speed. ‘Standard’ provides the normal level of acceleration on non-Performance vehicles. ‘Sport’ provides the normal level of acceleration on Performance vehicles.
As I understand it the difference between sport and chill is in the acceleration. So doing a constant 90 is not going to give you much of a difference. Surely it would be better to do a comparison between the 2 different modes would be to do it in start stops round a town.
Even though I like the acceleration of the normal mode better I still prefer using the Chill mode as I am not the only passenger in my Tesla. It just makes it more comfortable for my family. Also, I think as many other people have pointed out the Chill mode would probably make a difference in the city. Bjørn it would be very cool if you could repeat your tests in the city.
I like using ECO mode on my 2018 Leaf, not because of the promise of saving battery, but because it smooths out sudden accelerator jostles and makes the trip way more enjoyable for passengers (we have some bumpy roads here, which in turn jostles your accelerator foot creating a jumpier ride). When I wanna be first at the lights I turn ECO mode off.
It's more efficient to coast to a stop than regen to a stop. By coasting you get a shorter distance/time where you use power maintain speed. But you will not be well liked by the people driving behind you. Just look on the hatred twords Prius drivers. But I doubt it will be enough to notice. I would more see it as a preference of what you like, and not high efficiency is. But personally I would have like to a mode like what the Th¡nk had. When you let go of the accelerator, you would coast, but it used regen to prevent you from increasing speed.
@@starsundsternchen802 the channel Unplugged EV have already done those tests in his outlander PHEV. But there is no significant difference, because if you drive efficient, you will not regen on max, even if you have it in max regen. And you will not accelerate with max power, even if you have it in sport mode or equivalent... So in other words , if you have a light foot, it will be the same as eco mode.
It’s intended for stop and go traffic not highway like driving. Energy consumption to maintain speed would be the same. You can do the same in sport it just requires being aware of the throttle movement more but if you are new to the power of the vehicle or coming from a slow vehicle it helps ease into it
Chill Mode can be good for unexperienced drivers, who dont know how to handle this amount of power. i would like to know if chill mode is standard in valet-mode?
Thx and completly understandable. I never use chill mode because it just kills the usp of the car! Even when you use the potential, it's only a short time unless you deliberately yoyo all the time (which no one does). After watching this video I'm even more convinced never to use the chill mode. And Bjørn, you can skip a video about D and B mode....!
How come everybody else who tested the ID3 said B-mode leads to more regenerative braking? Did they get false instructions from VW? Please make one short video to prove it to the world. Thanks so much for your valuable content! I love your channel!
My brother used to have a sky box (sky satellite receiver). I was curious to its power consumption as it had a fan at the back of the unit - a computer with HDD etc. So I stuck a meter on it. It was taking 80w/hr whilst it was "on" and outputting a movie. And when it was on standby it was still taking 80 watts. So the red led was just a gimmick... Lol.. So like the chill mode - red standby led.
I mainly drive on Normal in my Model 3 LR AWD. Only sometimes when its slippery, or i have stuff in the car that could break if i trow it around, i enable it.
Would love you to do a video on consumption. Can you use track mode to simulate a rear wheel drive single motor on a performance. Do you get better consumption?
I think Chill Mode is purely when you don't want the jerk to be too high when you are not paying attention to the pedal pressure. However, if you get used to and comfortable with the standard/sport mode, you'll probably get a better consumption.
To me 22,0 kWh/100km is not a high winter consumption in my eyes, but the future might change that, I don't know. But I usually end up around 30,0 kWh/100km during shorter trips in my Polestar 2. A heavier car and not as good aerodynamics as the Model 3 though so it should be higher. But still, I'm happy when I get around 26,0 kWh/100km now during winter (but then I have to drive longer trips to get that). :) Also done some tests without the heater in the Polestar 2, makes a big difference :P But not so pleaseant xD
A stop start journey would show more difference. Essentially it stops you from using so much when you floor it from every lights stop. Cruising was never going to be different as the energy requirement isn’t different. You can waste energy by accelerating harder or going faster, so it’s about inadvertently wasting energy unnecessarily, and chill mode limits that. I like it because it is less savage on the neck muscles.
I don’t notice big difference either when using autopilot /FSD in traffic where the car slow down and accurate a lot to regulate distance. Even in chill mode the car seems to accelerate and brake just like normal mode . I was expecting it to be more smooth.
Test it in town without autopilot, driving manually. Then you may or may not see the difference. With my driving style, I get worse consumption with Chill mode, and I also hate it
Model Y will get air suspension some day. But I would not buy it, way to expensive. Not the initial price, it breaks too often. Way to high repair costs, again and again and again. No, thank you. (the same with other manufacturers)
At a constant speed, there will no difference. To see the energy difference, you need variable speed. For example, use the power poles next to a road and do a maximum acceleration to the next and then deceleration to a stop to the next. What happens is the (I**2)R losses of standard mode will lose more energy than using CHILL with the same protocol. At a constant speed, there will no difference.
It would be nice to see comparison between heater auto mode and manual with different fan speeds. In winter I mostly use manual in 1-2 speed which seems to reduce the consumption. I think there should be setting for auto mode to prefer lower fan speeds. Higher fan speed = more heated air exits the car and more coming in needs to be heated.
There was finnish test drivers that drove Tesla 3 to Lapland. On very slippery roads they said that chill mode helped them to stay on the road... ;) Well if you are bad driver and use full power on icy road, car will try to slide.
That's a bit mean regarding the Teslas. They just have too much power - and no acoustic feedback from the motor. So it's really hard to control your right foot that precise all the time. I also think Chill Mode would be very helpful under these conditions.
Hey Bjorn. Can you make a video on the topic of heat pumps in EVs with smaller batteries? And maybe in warmer countries than Norway. I am wondering if it makes sense to buy an ID3 Pure (smallest battery) with heat pump? (if you don't live in a cold place)
Acceleration doesn't matter in a constant speed trip, like in motorway. Maybe in city there is a difference. Another difference is the wear of the tires and the transmission shaft.
It saves your energy due to not being able to mash out and loose several kWh at a time. Basically assists with your driving habits. When I want to pass every car “fast”. I cannot in chill mode.
This test doesn't make much sense imho. The difference between chill and sport is in the acceleration -- as was shown in this video. So driving at a constant speed isn't gonna make much of a difference. Chill becomes more economical in a situation where you accelerate more frequently.
There is only a difference between the chill and sport mode due to the much faster acceleration possible in sport mode, but not at all in crude mode at a determined km/h.
Yes, but again like Bjørn says; you do not have to use all 400 KW in Sport mode, you can just use the 166 KW that Chill mode gives you... ;) I used Chill mode the first 4-5 weeks with my TM3, just to get used to it and get a feel for the car. Now I have it in Sport mode. Loving it.
I would think the difference in sport and chill WON'T be found on the highway, but in CITY DRIVING. Just like ICE vehicles you get much better millage on the highway compared to city, as your throttle applications are very muted and fewer as speed changes very little, but intown your foot goes to the floor each traffic light and then back to idle every 100 meters. THAT is where you might find some difference. The other thing that will be different is very gradual and may not show for 10 years. You will have much more stress on the Constant Velocity bearings in the drive axels and in motor mounts that will fail years beforehand if driven in sport ALL THE TIME. These CV Joints are designed for ICE vehicles and are rated for less than 400 HP, so using 400 amps from a standing start is somewhere around 750 HP, Causing undue stress. Being a all wheel drive vehicle reduces the strain on each CV by 25% and that is why they don't fail immediatly but long term life is shortened. CHEERS Steve h.
Chill mode vs. Sport mode will make no difference if you drive at close to constant speed. It will make difference only in situation where you accelerate a lot. To achieve higher HP / torque in electric motor, you move away from best efficiency point / generate more parasitic heat. In chill mode you stay closer to the best efficiency for a given motor rpm hence generate less heat / consume less energy per km. Wrong test.
Hi Bjorn - I am also getting some weird footwell heat from time to time. I can't quantify it. It seems to heat up after a while. Greetings from Montreal, Canada where it's been -8 to -12oC.
Theoretically seen it shouldn't make a difference. The mass of the object to be accelerated is the same as well as the final speed. In reality there might be a slightly difference due to external variables such as aerodynamics, friction and more.
Actually D is more efficient than B. The reason is you drive a litte different, let off the throttle earlier in D, while in B you'll be more likely to "brake late". Steady speed gives the best efficiency.. But ECO makes no difference other than a sluggish throttle-respons.
There is no point to check the difference between Sport and Chill modes when driving +/- constant speed on the highway. The difference is only in the accelerations. So, a better test would be something like make 10 times a 0-100 km/h acceleration flooring the accelerator in each mode (if that's enough to have a sufficiently meaningful value), and see what's the difference then. I believe, you will see a much bigger difference.
It could be great to make a sport mode protected by a PIN. If you lend your very fast car to inexperienced driver - it would be much much safer for him.
Hey Bjorn! Nice test as usual! Did you test the recuperation difference on Dual and Single motor fresh generation teslas already? Wonder if there is any point on getting a Dual motor tesla just for a little better tracktion control..
hi, but chill mode is ok in city center! not at constant speed. when you are at constant speed it's impossibile that there will be difference. but if you make many acceleration it's normal that you wil have difference results! bye
in 2014 eGolf B mode is more efficient than D mode - it enables a little bit more powerful recuperation - so yes, there is B mode more efficient than D mode .. but in other cars can be situation different.. Can you Bjorn test please 77kW ID.3 and ID.4 or Skoda Enyaq ? :-)
@@davidsommen1324 yea, when you regen it has to convert kinetic energy to electrical energy, and then convert AC into DC, but when you accelerate again you have to convert DC back into AC. I think total system efficiency is about 70-80%. Coasting is basically 100% efficient since you’re not using any energy to move and you’ll slow down just with friction alone.
@@bjornnyland i have 100% completed correctly your test :-) i have 190k km on eGolf already.. i bought OBDeleven on your advice.. and now i check all 88 batteries temp and voltage during drive and charging :-D @Harsimran Coasting is close 100% efficient, but sometimes it is necessary to use brakes - with pedal on D mode or B mode release accelerator.. without intensive braking.. and this is the issue with eGolf - it is more powerful recuperation on B mode.. also when i am trying to maximize range, it is better to less use of steering wheel - when your car turns left or right it looses energy :-) @Bjorn i am waiting for 77kW ID.3 / ID.4 and Tesla Model Y 2021 EU version test! You are the best! :-D
It would be great if you could compare B and D mode in the ID.3. D mode should be more efficient. www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/brake-or-coast-the-id4s-intelligent-energy-recuperation-concept-6658 Coasting is 100% efficient, no energy is used. Regen is not 100% efficient due to inverter and charging heat losses. The important thing in either mode, is not to use the friction brakes. D mode will require more anticipation, but I guarantee that it will be more efficient. I believe the ideal is to have various regen levels available as with the steering wheel paddles in the Audi e-tron. Apparently Porsche believe coasting is far more efficient in the Taycan. Obviously B mode will have to be used on steep down hill sections to prevent the need for friction braking. The ID.3 also has intelligent regeneration in D mode (Eco Assistance). It uses the adaptive cruise control radar to engage regeneration automatically when approaching slower vehicles. The ID.3 can also automatically engage regeneration using speed limit and navigation data.
@@starsundsternchen802 I very much doubt that any downhill/uphill on that 8 km strech required more then 150 kW. Regeneration with chill mode is the same, if gravity is high enough one can both keep a speed and regen. Chill mode is not coasting. Why would you bring that up? Context matters.
Where to start? The cheapest model 3 starts €800 a month private lease. And than i have to recharge. That’s between 800 and 900 €uro in the month! ( can only charge at public)
Per year? No no per month. Even a kona is 600 700 euro per month. An a leaf 350 400 per month. And a mg zs Ev is 400 500 per month. With a max of 10.000 km a year. And charge costs are also for your self. So count 50/60 euro more a month
@@jdnrotterdam2150 oh I misunderstood. I thought you were saying charging was an additional 800 a month on top of the lease. Is getting a loan a better deal? I always hated leases.
Don't know if anyone noticed the difference. Chill mode's regenerative braking is more "smooth". This is the main reason I use it. In standard mode if i release the gas pedal the "stopping" is much quicker, vs in "chill" mode. End result may not matter much to the driver, but is a HUGE difference to passengers. My wife will literally throw up when I drive in "standard" mode while "chill" mode is more bearable. Sure, I can use "standard mode" and when letting go the gas pedal, let go super slower and sensitive. But that's such a big hassle and big effort, it takes the joy out of driving the car. So, CHILL mode is just more smooth, for the passenger. Anyone else feel the same?
Yes
Presumably the only difference is that chill mode forces you to drive more economically. Physics is physics. Nothing prevents you from driving as economically without chill mode.
If you drive in sport mode like chill mode you will get the same consumption.... no shock
@@loneskullkid If it is like in the fossils, the accelerator response should be sharper, hense higher consumption. The ECO mode i fossils also absorb the little movements of the foot on the throttle, and therefore, less consumption too. Would it be possible that in the EVs we have a similar feature?
@@HikaruSorano05 if you drive in a cold climate difference beetwen chill and sport mode is nullified by battery heater or with heat scavenging (moving the heat from battery and power electronics to cabin)
I believe it depends on environment where person drives. I am quite sure if it would be checking acceleration and deceleration, there would be some difference. E.g. doing 150 times from 0 - 60 with & w/o chill mode, there would be some difference, as I believe there would be less heat loss on battery due to pulling higher power on sport mode.
Of course, if you do only highway driving and accelerate only few times, there will be no difference whatsoever. It is completely same logic with ECO mode in other cars...
@@HikaruSorano05 this is what the chill mode do. It makes smooth the acceleration response.
Can you do the same test driving in the City? Using constant speed on the high way does not make much sense to compare Chill / Sport. The difference will be effective when you have many times accelerating / stopping for traffic lights etc. I am convinced if you do a city route with many traffic lights you will see the difference. btw I love your video's, good work!
This - when you are driving at a set speed the power output from the motors will be the same on chill and sport mode..... its only when accelerating you will use the extra available power from sport mode Bjorn
I found ECO mode on the Zoe made no difference to economy (assuming I drove at the same speed). I never used it because it killed the acceleration on an already slow car and the heating didn't work well.
The power-loss in a electric motor is proportional to the current squared (I^2) and consequently the motor torque squared.
The power-loss in a battery is also proportional to the current pulled.
The theory will predict no difference in consumption when driving on highway since keeping a steady speed at highway require the same tourqe and consequently the same current from the battery, chill mode or sport mode.
The difference will show in city traffic because the chill mode will make your right foot "less heavy".
Being a aggressive driver will increase your consumption.
If you already are driving carefully the chill mode will not affect your consumption.
Another conclusion from the theory are that avoiding regenerative braking for the benefit of coasting will lower your consumption.
Agreed, I use Neutral for coasting to lower consumption sometimes.
The battery loss actually also goes up with the square of the current pulled from it - a given current, gives a certain drop in output voltage, due to the internal resistance of the battery. Now if you double the current draw, that voltage drop will also double. 2 times the voltage drop x 2 times the current = 4 times the power loss.
Most of the power loss is probably in the battery (since that's the main limiting factor for most electric cars) and we can actually see how much in the video, by looking at the battery voltage (even if we don't know the current, we know that the power loss is proportional to the voltage drop - the current can be calculated from "battery power" divided by voltage though, but not needed EDIT: I saw after writing this that current is also shown, haha - but same thing still applies)
For example during the fast acceleration at 1:20, it drops from about 390 V to 310 at peak current draw (wich is an 80 V drop) - that's 80 / 390 = 0,20512... or about 20,5 % of the power lost as heat in the battery. During the slower "chill mode" acceleration it dropped to 360, so that's just about 7,7 % power loss. It's pretty obvious that the only thing "chill mode" does, is limiting current draw from the battery by limiting available power. Apperently it's better to just have it in "sport mode" all the time and if you want to save power, just don't push the throttle more than like half way. The slow throttle response does nothing to save energy - it just takes away much of the fun by an electric car and gives back the feeling of an ICE car, haha
If you double the current you also are decreasing the amount of time it takes to reach speed. So there has to be an acceleration sweet spot. Has anyone calculated this?
@@bluetrepidation there's no sweet spot, the longer the acceleration the better. Also it helps doubly because you're going slower (with less aero drag) for longer. But at some point you get into diminishing returns so don't go crawling in traffic just to save energy.
@@bluetrepidation The losses go up more than the time to get up to speed goes down, so to say. Accelerate slow also means you will go slow for a longer distance, so your average speed and average air resistance throughout the drive will decrease. Simply, the slower you go, the less energy it takes. But there might be a sweet spot (a compromise) between having fun driving and energy consumption. If you do a really boring slow accelerations, you may get very low energy consumption
- but not very much lower compared to if you accelerate like half throttle for example.
But if you really floors it every time, the consumption will be significantly higher. So there may be a sweet spot, where you can still have some fun, but keep a reasonably low consumption.
Same applies for speed, as air resistance increases with the square of the speed. Athough that's also very situation dependent - depending on driving distances and chargers available. For long trips where you really need range, it will actually be a sweet spot for your "cruising speed", where your total travel time (and average speed for the whole trip) is the lowest. If you go too slow, you will spend so much time for the drive it self, that even if you make less charging stops, it will still take longer (not to mention that if you are like me and don't like to go slow - a 3 hour trip is nicer if it consists of 2:20 driving and a 40 min charge stop, compared to a slow boring 3 hour non stop drive).
But if you go too fast, you will run out of juice so often that you will spend too much time charging. I would guess highway cruising speeds of 140-170 km/h (depending on battery size) in low traffic, is pretty much the optimum speed in a Tesla, if there are fast chargers available along the way.
I think chill mode would make a potential difference when accelerating and slowing more than when driving at a steady pace so trips around town doing stop/start driving would benefit from chill mode as it pulls less amps from the battery.
I suspect when you yoyo to warm the battery you would see a differencebetween sport and chill modes. Maybe worth a try.
The point was that if you drive normally or carefully, the mode doesn't matter. It's like putting a brick behind the acceleration pedal: Chill Mode just prevents the max output, but you can drive just the same as if you had Chill Mode on by not pushing the pedal to the metal with Standard Mode.
@@rahko_i some people don't control the throttle very well so chill mode can help them.
@@rodrigosousa9049 yea that’s true. Teslas are very sharp and so people coming from ICE cars might find it difficult to be super precise. However so many people say chill mode saves energy, which isn’t true!
@@harsimranbansal5355 yup doesn't save energy, but it make it easier to get a lower consumption if you are in town on stop and go traffic. I have a model X I use chill mode for long road trips so I can drive without thinking about how hard I am stepping on the throttle, it's not fun when you just want to accelerate a bit and then the 700 or 600 hp kick in, I like chill mode and I think it's usefull for some drivers.
@@rodrigosousa9049 700hp kicks in 🤣🤣, the car is gonna fly!
You probably save money on reduced wear on the tires. At least in city traffic.
You know that the throttle is variable, right? It's not on-off only. lol
@@bjornnyland good point
Having standard mode or Sport mode active is in my opinion safer. You can accelerate out of dangerous situations, like a rear ending or side collision. Considering you can handle the acceleration though.
@@FIGHTTHECABLE How often do you really need to accelerate out of dangerous situations? I would argue that it's far far more common that people into dangerous situations because of too much speed.
Of course it's a bit silly to buy a car with hundreds of kilowatts of power and restrict it in the software to potentially save a little bit of money.
@@PontusEgnell I had my first situation 1 Week after buying the car. Was on the left lane as traffic came to an abrupt stop. Saw car coming in fast from behind and decided to quickly switch to the free right lane and accelerate.
Also roundabouts and enterances onto high traffic roads it is useful to gain speed fast.
So this has confirmed my suspicion: chill mode or eco mode on other cars don't make them use less energy, only they restrict the throttle/performance of the vehicle. If you drive carefully without flooring the pedal they don't change a thing, they only help those who usually tend to use the throttle more radically. I would argue that chill/eco mode is worse for experienced and mindful drivers since they don't lower the consumption but they restrict the cars performance hence it won't be available when it's useful/necessary in a dangerous situation for instance.
i mainly use chill mode for getting a better feeling of the pedal while driving in cities/parking (which i mostly do aside from some highway where autopilot drives and i dont care about acceleration)
Chill mode help me preserve my studded tires and apply torque really gently on slippery surfaces.
But yes, right foot education can do the same.
If your throttle foot only works in binary, meaning WoT and no throttle, yes.
I think you will see a more significant difference if you test in the city. Chill mode is much more efficient when you’re in stop and go traffic. At highway speeds, you won’t see a big difference - especially if you are cruising with auto pilot.
It's more economical in start-stop traffic but main use is to reduce slipping in rain/ice.
When I first got the car I easily over accelerated from a stop on intersections in a sense that the cars behind me are 10-15 car lengths behind. Using unnecessary more electricity in the process. After a while, you learn how to feather the pedal in standard mode so you don't need to enable chill mode anymore.
Haha nice video, I was asking myself this question, i switched from chill to standard and back, but didn’t saw a difference in consumption.
I thank you for this. Years later. I have a 21 model 3 lr. I was curious if it made it better for my infant. Because it's less punchy, but also more economic. Because it really has no pop. I'm glad to know it's not significant. I'll keep it in chill but only for him now. The moment he's front facing. It's on sport
What Bjorn fails to realize is roads in some countries aren't as well maintained as his. Chill mode can help feathering the throttle in these conditions. It also plays some psychological roll to get you to coast further to a stop which does save energy. Huge difference in tire wear too.
What this guy failed to understand was that for highways, chill mode makes no difference.
@@bjornnyland 😁 Have you ever tested the HVAC consumption on auto vs forcing air recirculation for the cabin on for an entire trip?
I would like to see you Björn doing a explanational video of ECO-driving, go trough the theory of common settings on EVs and how they would effect the consumption in theory.
for example explain to people how different ways of slowing down your car will effect your energy consumption.
from best to worst.
coasting to slow down by friction and drag ---> light regenerative braking ----> heavy generative breaking ----> frictional breaks.
Fun fact:
the equation for kinetic energy is E=(m*V^2)/2
m=mass, V=Velicity
this means that if you slow down your car with frictional breaks to half your original speed, you have wasted 3/4 of your kinetic energy to heat in your breaks.
Please give a thumbs up on this comment if you would like to see Björn making this video.
I have M3LR RD. I got the best consumption when I turn HVAC to the blue windshield, it's more efficient than regular
I like to hammer it, so chill mode is a plus.
The real question is what is the battery consumption like when gunning it to 45 mph vs getting to that speed slower.
I drive often in winter short trips of 2-8km with my 2020 M3, because I hardly use the bike than. I use a climate setting o only 16°C and fan speed 1 or 2 and seat heating. I have a jacket on anyway, so that is not problem and a ICE car also would not get warm on 3km. With that setting I use 170Wh/km instead of 230Wh/km. On Long trips of course I heat to 20°C to stay comfortable. During the week I only drive such short trips (also due to the pandemic), so it makes a huge difference in consumption.
check out what the manual says about cars with the heat pump:
You can improve efficiency of the cabin heating by reducing your selected acceleration mode, allowing the heat pump to take more heat from the battery to efficiently heat the cabin instead of maintaining the battery’s ability to provide peak acceleration performance. ‘Chill’ is the most energy efficient mode, especially in cold weather. To adjust your acceleration mode, tap ‘Controls’ > ‘Pedals & Steering’ > ‘Acceleration’ from the vehicle touchscreen to adjust the amount of acceleration you experience when driving. Select from one of the following modes:
‘Chill’ limits acceleration for a gentle ride and optimizing cabin heating in cold weather.
Note: When Chill is selected, Chill displays on the touchscreen above the driving speed.
‘Standard’ provides the normal level of acceleration on non-Performance vehicles.
‘Sport’ provides the normal level of acceleration on Performance vehicles.
As I understand it the difference between sport and chill is in the acceleration. So doing a constant 90 is not going to give you much of a difference. Surely it would be better to do a comparison between the 2 different modes would be to do it in start stops round a town.
My point exactly.
Even though I like the acceleration of the normal mode better I still prefer using the Chill mode as I am not the only passenger in my Tesla. It just makes it more comfortable for my family. Also, I think as many other people have pointed out the Chill mode would probably make a difference in the city.
Bjørn it would be very cool if you could repeat your tests in the city.
I like using ECO mode on my 2018 Leaf, not because of the promise of saving battery, but because it smooths out sudden accelerator jostles and makes the trip way more enjoyable for passengers (we have some bumpy roads here, which in turn jostles your accelerator foot creating a jumpier ride). When I wanna be first at the lights I turn ECO mode off.
I use Chill mode mainly but when I need to get in and out of traffic or across a street I put it on acceleration mode and then back to chill, lol.
Great video! ;)
I'm ready for the B mode vs. D mode!
We need it, to post it in some forums! ;)
A more interesting test would be efficiency of regen vs coasting. There is presumably some heat loss from regen, but is it enough to notice?
It's more efficient to coast to a stop than regen to a stop.
By coasting you get a shorter distance/time where you use power maintain speed.
But you will not be well liked by the people driving behind you. Just look on the hatred twords Prius drivers.
But I doubt it will be enough to notice.
I would more see it as a preference of what you like, and not high efficiency is.
But personally I would have like to a mode like what the Th¡nk had. When you let go of the accelerator, you would coast, but it used regen to prevent you from increasing speed.
@@starsundsternchen802 the channel Unplugged EV have already done those tests in his outlander PHEV.
But there is no significant difference, because if you drive efficient, you will not regen on max, even if you have it in max regen.
And you will not accelerate with max power, even if you have it in sport mode or equivalent...
So in other words , if you have a light foot, it will be the same as eco mode.
It’s intended for stop and go traffic not highway like driving. Energy consumption to maintain speed would be the same. You can do the same in sport it just requires being aware of the throttle movement more but if you are new to the power of the vehicle or coming from a slow vehicle it helps ease into it
Chill Mode can be good for unexperienced drivers, who dont know how to handle this amount of power.
i would like to know if chill mode is standard in valet-mode?
yes it is
Thx and completly understandable. I never use chill mode because it just kills the usp of the car! Even when you use the potential, it's only a short time unless you deliberately yoyo all the time (which no one does). After watching this video I'm even more convinced never to use the chill mode. And Bjørn, you can skip a video about D and B mode....!
Great video! Upgraded to Tesla I see wow. I believe I’ve been watching your channel since you were making videos with your BMW i8!
How come everybody else who tested the ID3 said B-mode leads to more regenerative braking? Did they get false instructions from VW? Please make one short video to prove it to the world. Thanks so much for your valuable content! I love your channel!
My brother used to have a sky box (sky satellite receiver). I was curious to its power consumption as it had a fan at the back of the unit - a computer with HDD etc. So I stuck a meter on it.
It was taking 80w/hr whilst it was "on" and outputting a movie.
And when it was on standby it was still taking 80 watts. So the red led was just a gimmick... Lol..
So like the chill mode - red standby led.
That was exactly I wanted to know - how much "classic" heater is using in Model 3. Thank you Björn!
@@friedemanngadeke8366 yes, agree, he told the same, we will see later on.
And „rubber consumption“ in sport mode might be higher, even if you take care with your right foot ?
No problem at all to gently accelerate even in sport/ludi mode.
I mainly drive on Normal in my Model 3 LR AWD. Only sometimes when its slippery, or i have stuff in the car that could break if i trow it around, i enable it.
Would love you to do a video on consumption. Can you use track mode to simulate a rear wheel drive single motor on a performance. Do you get better consumption?
I think Chill Mode is purely when you don't want the jerk to be too high when you are not paying attention to the pedal pressure. However, if you get used to and comfortable with the standard/sport mode, you'll probably get a better consumption.
To me 22,0 kWh/100km is not a high winter consumption in my eyes, but the future might change that, I don't know.
But I usually end up around 30,0 kWh/100km during shorter trips in my Polestar 2. A heavier car and not as good aerodynamics as the Model 3 though so it should be higher.
But still, I'm happy when I get around 26,0 kWh/100km now during winter (but then I have to drive longer trips to get that). :)
Also done some tests without the heater in the Polestar 2, makes a big difference :P But not so pleaseant xD
A stop start journey would show more difference. Essentially it stops you from using so much when you floor it from every lights stop. Cruising was never going to be different as the energy requirement isn’t different. You can waste energy by accelerating harder or going faster, so it’s about inadvertently wasting energy unnecessarily, and chill mode limits that. I like it because it is less savage on the neck muscles.
I don’t notice big difference either when using autopilot /FSD in traffic where the car slow down and accurate a lot to regulate distance. Even in chill mode the car seems to accelerate and brake just like normal mode . I was expecting it to be more smooth.
Test it in town without autopilot, driving manually. Then you may or may not see the difference. With my driving style, I get worse consumption with Chill mode, and I also hate it
God I love this channel
Wish model3 had the same suspension as MS
Model Y will get air suspension some day. But I would not buy it, way to expensive. Not the initial price, it breaks too often. Way to high repair costs, again and again and again. No, thank you. (the same with other manufacturers)
At a constant speed, there will no difference.
To see the energy difference, you need variable speed. For example, use the power poles next to a road and do a maximum acceleration to the next and then deceleration to a stop to the next. What happens is the (I**2)R losses of standard mode will lose more energy than using CHILL with the same protocol. At a constant speed, there will no difference.
My point exactly.
It would be nice to see comparison between heater auto mode and manual with different fan speeds. In winter I mostly use manual in 1-2 speed which seems to reduce the consumption. I think there should be setting for auto mode to prefer lower fan speeds. Higher fan speed = more heated air exits the car and more coming in needs to be heated.
On D it coasts on B it doesn't 😛. Coasting > regen, efficiency wise.
What happens if you turn on Netflix while in Chill mode? 😏
I assume it'll have the same effect as crossing the streams!
You should make this comparison in the town, moving by street.
There was finnish test drivers that drove Tesla 3 to Lapland. On very slippery roads they said that chill mode helped them to stay on the road... ;) Well if you are bad driver and use full power on icy road, car will try to slide.
That's a bit mean regarding the Teslas. They just have too much power - and no acoustic feedback from the motor. So it's really hard to control your right foot that precise all the time. I also think Chill Mode would be very helpful under these conditions.
Hey Bjorn. Can you make a video on the topic of heat pumps in EVs with smaller batteries? And maybe in warmer countries than Norway. I am wondering if it makes sense to buy an ID3 Pure (smallest battery) with heat pump?
(if you don't live in a cold place)
Can you try this test again with city traffic? More acceleration and braking might get different results.
Acceleration doesn't matter in a constant speed trip, like in motorway. Maybe in city there is a difference.
Another difference is the wear of the tires and the transmission shaft.
It saves your energy due to not being able to mash out and loose several kWh at a time. Basically assists with your driving habits. When I want to pass every car “fast”. I cannot in chill mode.
This test doesn't make much sense imho. The difference between chill and sport is in the acceleration -- as was shown in this video. So driving at a constant speed isn't gonna make much of a difference. Chill becomes more economical in a situation where you accelerate more frequently.
There is only a difference between the chill and sport mode due to the much faster acceleration possible in sport mode, but not at all in crude mode at a determined km/h.
Ha ha I literally put the car into chill mode about 20 minutes ago and wondered the same thing. I guess I'll find out by the end of this video
Wassup man! Love your videos!
For some drivers (especially younger or much older drivers) the reduced throttle sensitivity might be safer
It might be more economical on the tyres :-P
Yes, but again like Bjørn says; you do not have to use all 400 KW in Sport mode, you can just use the 166 KW that Chill mode gives you... ;) I used Chill mode the first 4-5 weeks with my TM3, just to get used to it and get a feel for the car. Now I have it in Sport mode. Loving it.
If you are clumsy with your throttle, yes.
I would think the difference in sport and chill WON'T be found on the highway, but in CITY DRIVING. Just like ICE vehicles you get much better millage on the highway compared to city, as your throttle applications are very muted and fewer as speed changes very little, but intown your foot goes to the floor each traffic light and then back to idle every 100 meters. THAT is where you might find some difference. The other thing that will be different is very gradual and may not show for 10 years. You will have much more stress on the Constant Velocity bearings in the drive axels and in motor mounts that will fail years beforehand if driven in sport ALL THE TIME. These CV Joints are designed for ICE vehicles and are rated for less than 400 HP, so using 400 amps from a standing start is somewhere around 750 HP, Causing undue stress. Being a all wheel drive vehicle reduces the strain on each CV by 25% and that is why they don't fail immediatly but long term life is shortened. CHEERS Steve h.
Chill mode vs. Sport mode will make no difference if you drive at close to constant speed. It will make difference only in situation where you accelerate a lot. To achieve higher HP / torque in electric motor, you move away from best efficiency point / generate more parasitic heat. In chill mode you stay closer to the best efficiency for a given motor rpm hence generate less heat / consume less energy per km. Wrong test.
My point exactly. You missed the whole point of this test and the video.
Hi Bjorn - I am also getting some weird footwell heat from time to time. I can't quantify it. It seems to heat up after a while. Greetings from Montreal, Canada where it's been -8 to -12oC.
Theoretically seen it shouldn't make a difference. The mass of the object to be accelerated is the same as well as the final speed. In reality there might be a slightly difference due to external variables such as aerodynamics, friction and more.
Actually D is more efficient than B. The reason is you drive a litte different, let off the throttle earlier in D, while in B you'll be more likely to "brake late". Steady speed gives the best efficiency..
But ECO makes no difference other than a sluggish throttle-respons.
Nope
@@bjornnyland nope what?
Proof?
If your tests show different, there must be something about drivingstyle.
Great video Bjorn.
Tesla should have a range mode for the Model 3 & Y. Does Tesla still have a range mode for the Model X & S?
There is no point to check the difference between Sport and Chill modes when driving +/- constant speed on the highway. The difference is only in the accelerations. So, a better test would be something like make 10 times a 0-100 km/h acceleration flooring the accelerator in each mode (if that's enough to have a sufficiently meaningful value), and see what's the difference then. I believe, you will see a much bigger difference.
My point exactly. Can people now stop nagging me about using D mode instead of B mode?
I'm glad it's your point :) Ignore those guys, you drive how you want...
How about a consumption/range test with multiple people in the car?
Maybe Chill Mode is just for people who dont know how to properly use the throttle ;P
Correct! ;)
You switch acceleration but you test steady driving. That's not a valid test from my perspective. Go 0-200 and see what it consumes for example.
It could be great to make a sport mode protected by a PIN. If you lend your very fast car to inexperienced driver - it would be much much safer for him.
Use valet mode
Do chill mode affect how aggressive the cruise control is at changing speed?
The ACC in my Golf is really sluggish in Eco mode.
You have left lane huggers too? I thought that was just a USA thing.
For city driving im more likely to brake hard in normal mode
Best way to increase efficiency is to minimize weight as much as possible.
Hey Bjorn! Nice test as usual!
Did you test the recuperation difference on Dual and Single motor fresh generation teslas already?
Wonder if there is any point on getting a Dual motor tesla just for a little better tracktion control..
Chill mode makes the Performance Model 3 more comfortable.
How much would taping body panel gaps save on energy. As would be more aerodynamic
Hi Björn!
Have you try to check the stationary heat consumtion if you only close the floor valve?
How can I get my hands on that app you have? ‘Tesla stats’ ?
Like it a lot 😀
Links are in the description.
It has turbo lag on chll mode
hi, but chill mode is ok in city center! not at constant speed. when you are at constant speed it's impossibile that there will be difference. but if you make many acceleration it's normal that you wil have difference results! bye
in 2014 eGolf B mode is more efficient than D mode - it enables a little bit more powerful recuperation - so yes, there is B mode more efficient than D mode .. but in other cars can be situation different.. Can you Bjorn test please 77kW ID.3 and ID.4 or Skoda Enyaq ? :-)
Only if you decelerate a lot B mode might be more efficient - with highway driving coasting is generally more efficient than regen
@@davidsommen1324 yea, when you regen it has to convert kinetic energy to electrical energy, and then convert AC into DC, but when you accelerate again you have to convert DC back into AC. I think total system efficiency is about 70-80%. Coasting is basically 100% efficient since you’re not using any energy to move and you’ll slow down just with friction alone.
th-cam.com/video/uQvnEso4mUA/w-d-xo.html
@@bjornnyland i have 100% completed correctly your test :-) i have 190k km on eGolf already.. i bought OBDeleven on your advice.. and now i check all 88 batteries temp and voltage during drive and charging :-D @Harsimran Coasting is close 100% efficient, but sometimes it is necessary to use brakes - with pedal on D mode or B mode release accelerator.. without intensive braking.. and this is the issue with eGolf - it is more powerful recuperation on B mode.. also when i am trying to maximize range, it is better to less use of steering wheel - when your car turns left or right it looses energy :-) @Bjorn i am waiting for 77kW ID.3 / ID.4 and Tesla Model Y 2021 EU version test! You are the best! :-D
Ironically Sport mode in my Ioniq uses less energy for me than Eco or normal 😂
It would be great if you could compare B and D mode in the ID.3. D mode should be more efficient. www.volkswagen-newsroom.com/en/press-releases/brake-or-coast-the-id4s-intelligent-energy-recuperation-concept-6658
Coasting is 100% efficient, no energy is used. Regen is not 100% efficient due to inverter and charging heat losses. The important thing in either mode, is not to use the friction brakes. D mode will require more anticipation, but I guarantee that it will be more efficient. I believe the ideal is to have various regen levels available as with the steering wheel paddles in the Audi e-tron. Apparently Porsche believe coasting is far more efficient in the Taycan. Obviously B mode will have to be used on steep down hill sections to prevent the need for friction braking. The ID.3 also has intelligent regeneration in D mode (Eco Assistance). It uses the adaptive cruise control radar to engage regeneration automatically when approaching slower vehicles. The ID.3 can also automatically engage regeneration using speed limit and navigation data.
City driving is what this will save energy during.
I thought chill mode is interior temperature limited to 15°
Nope
Nice giant mosque he drove by
Chill mode ?
It's actually "E-mach Mustang" mode.
Change your driving habits and your SOC will not drop as fast
What a B and D mode is ?
Hey Bjørn what software do you use to edit your videos?
Premiere Pro
@@bjornnyland Thanks!
What app are you using?
I did not like chill mode I wish they had a smart mode that kicks in at wot like Kia and Hyundai
Why should there be a difference in consumption at a constant speed?
My point exactly.
@@starsundsternchen802 I very much doubt that any downhill/uphill on that 8 km strech required more then 150 kW. Regeneration with chill mode is the same, if gravity is high enough one can both keep a speed and regen.
Chill mode is not coasting. Why would you bring that up? Context matters.
👍
Does anybody know how to bypass without pin and login info ???
I read Chili Mode at first sight xd
I am never chill. I’m always stressed. Always worried. And thinking about.. will i ever own a tesla in my life?
Don't dream, do it.
Where to start? The cheapest model 3 starts €800 a month private lease. And than i have to recharge. That’s between 800 and 900 €uro in the month! ( can only charge at public)
@@jdnrotterdam2150 800 euros a month? You mean per year, right?
Per year? No no per month. Even a kona is 600 700 euro per month. An a leaf 350 400 per month. And a mg zs Ev is 400 500 per month. With a max of 10.000 km a year. And charge costs are also for your self. So count 50/60 euro more a month
@@jdnrotterdam2150 oh I misunderstood. I thought you were saying charging was an additional 800 a month on top of the lease. Is getting a loan a better deal? I always hated leases.