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Subwoofers Don't Need DSP! w/ John Hunter
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ส.ค. 2022
- John Hunter from REL joins the podcast to discuss their subwoofers.
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I would say the same if my products don’t offer it. I used subs for over 15 years without DSP. Switched last year to DSP and that helped me a lot to make my dual sub setup better in my room. And I didn’t just go for a flat line as he says.
For movies or music I can change the settings instantly to get a better experience.
If you have a perfect room just made for music or a home cinema then you probably don’t need that. But I wouldn’t go back to not having it.
Thanks
Thank goodness for Geddes, Olive, Toole & co. Research and science trumps marketing hype and snake oil all day long.
Snake oil. Inferior subs that are only good in a tight window. Amazing that they branded that REL.
Once you realize that a 30Hz wave is 11m long (36ft) and 20Hz is 17m (56ft), you'll realize how important speaker placement and listening positions are. Because those low frequency waves physically don't even fit inside most peoples room, not to mention all the reflections from other frequencies. So #1 thing is proper placement, otherwise you're going to chase your tale with DSP, room correction, EQ, etc, etc. Also DSP is equalization, equalization is inherently distortion.
The problem is not the subs, it is the room....
The flat frequency tuning is done on a sweep wave. A sweep wave is generated at a constant dB throughout the frequency. After the tuning, when u play a song, the bump and dip in the music is still going to be bump and dip. It wont be flat out...what is he talking about ..
🤷♂️
Hi Shane, in your room would do 2 rel 1510 or 2 kef kf92?
Depends on the room size. The 1510 will play louder and fill a large room easy.
OK but what happens when you put 4 of these in a room, how do you make them work with each other and not against each other without DSP ?
When you run the trinovs calibration with their fancy microphone, well, that is adding a DSP to make these subs work together. Its even adding DSP to the main speakers so those will also work with the subs and not against them.
If you have the perfect room dimensions and perfect speaker placement and acoustic treatment AND only listen at the main listening position then yes, no DSP will be needed.
DSP in/for the sub itself doesn't make sense, but for the room it makes.
New Sparechange logo is cool
🧐
It's no longer called Spare Change...
Spot on, it’s how fast the subs playing those Low frequencies decay, that’s very important, way more important than getting a flat amplitude response at MLP
Congratulations Shane for reaching 90,000 Subscribers, Dude!
I looked up self-righteous in the dictionary and this guy's picture was the definition.
Great interview. The info is what I have thought about subs and sound forever but dumped on by the so-called 'audiophiles'.
So PBK for paradigm and Martin Logan subs not realistic is this what I’m hearing?
DSP for the sub is better than great. I have a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 8033 and it truly makes wonders for the bass/my sub.
I like that model's ideology. Taming room resonance peaks only, not wasting amp power to boost nodes.
My understanding is that, because of the delay in the DSP processing, you need to put the subwoofer a couple feet in front of the main apeaker to time-align the outputs of the two speakers, which I cannot do in my listening room setup.
@@ron101346 From the manual:
"If the A/V receiver supports speaker distances, you can add 90 cm to the subwoofer
distance relative to other speakers to compensate for the internal processing delay.
This is not absolutely necessary since the delay is small enough that the human
auditory system can generally not detect it."
And after my testing you can't hear any delay or something so it's nothing to worry about.
Lol the DSP ppl are triggered
🤣
When I first heard him speak, like many commenters I thought here we go another marketing-dependent brand like Bose. Then I listened to a REL subwoofer, changed my life and brought one home. Just go listen to it.
Which one did you get?
Neat
@@truwarrior22 T9x because it was available, it’s total overkill for my space :)
@@truwarrior222/carbon specials
This guy reminds me of somebody I work with. Thinks he's more important than he actually is. Talks down to us like we don't know what we really want.
I don't get that vibe, I actually feel John is humble, and quite interesting to here his "out of the square" theory's.
You know they say about opinions...
You can take his opinion as pompous. But he’s not wrong.
Audio enthusiasts without a proper understand of physics and how sound operates, are cursed to a life pursuing dreams rather than goals.
Oh ... Really ..
Agreed, REL makes it sound like like they have the only "good" sounding/measuring subs in the world, when in reality most high performance brands do it very differently than REL, and sound at least as good,usually much better than REL's do.
He's not talking down to us, mind you I suppose it's all a matter of perception.
After going down some of both types of rabbit holes, I tend to agree with this guy.
The new logo looks like sunkist
🧐
@@therealshanelee Hope you and the family are well bro! Keep up the good work
When a mfr puts their moniker / brand name on whatever flat surface they can find in their product, you know what you're buying into. That being said, Mr. Hunter does have some good points, just that there aren't many of them IMHO. Nevertheless, anecdotally, REL subs are pretty good if you wanna make a statement: a very cheeky one in fact.
There’s much truth to what he’s saying, I like the quickness of Seal Subs however Ported Subs are more popular because they go Boooooooooooooooom
weird comment on nature in sound is not flat... it isnt about making all music flat, OMG. Flat response to a Flat signal is what its about, so the reproduction chain is reproducing accurately. You can dial in any type of response you want, but it should be in your control.... Flat is all around the best unless you have a lot of time to create profiles for each type of music you enjoy - Harmon curves notwithstanding. What you say about audible delay effects caused by the milliseconds of DSP delay may be correct. I have not read any studies on it.
he slams linear performance and literally said "..the black art stuff that we do..". REL is now the Audioquest of subwoofers to me. 😜
Based on what specifically?
20.7s fast speaker, w/Coda v3 800w@4ohms. Rel carbon specials & JLA cr-1 crossover matches perfectly. Speed & power are important. The worst systems I've heard are open baffle, distortion galore.
This guy is fired. Smh
this dude is straight up not correct. That's some marketing gibberish.
REL should make their subs go flat to 15 Hz, lol
Agreed, but they use too small drivers in too small boxes
Ain't watching a movie or listening to tunes complicated now!😁
I know many guys who don’t believe in EQ at all. For them any kind of processing ruins the sound.
Subs with dsp programs aren’t bad. You can take a lesser cost sub and have it play louder and deeper than it should for the price and components. Some people like the subs to decay as the artist or sound engineer intended and some want more for effect/presentation. He seems like doesn’t like dsp subs; his intent was to explain why rel doesn’t use them and what some mass market and ID companies are doing to sell a myth or ideal curve/frequency extension.
seriously don't understand why B&w no longer provides Controls on the back of a subwoofer. have to use an app. Really really stupid. DSP for subs is good for timing. Home theater processors do dsp for a sub and mostly for timing. Do you agree? Always open to learning more.
I adjust the volume in the back of the sub all the time. The crossover not so much just leave it alone and live with 60 or 80. I'm not sure why people are getting so anal about subs.
DSP in receivers certainly correct for timing, though DSP in subs only measure the subs frequency response and not the timing of that sub in relation to the speakers.
Maybe best system is non DSP’d sub and a DSP in amplifier which takes the whole picture into account. Or maybe one day we will have DSP fast enough to not matter 👍
REFERENCE series have PEQ so even the super RELs need some correction in certain rooms 😳
i learnd from dsp it destroy the real life-sound... so get some real sub´s that made to play BASS and is stabil in quality
_caveat emptor._
Boy Shane you could tell that cat knows what he’s talking about pretty interesting interview.
@@andrewskaterrr Sure pal. I believe you... 😁😁
He made two glaring misstatements, so sorry fellow however he doesn't "really know his stuff" and it is all instead one man's "opinion".
Do yourself a huge favor and always form your own opinions, and not solely based on the input from Salesman.
@@johndaddabbo9383 who is the Salesman? You think this guy is into what he does for the cash?
@@chebrubin Please...
DSP should be DSP. It shouldn't be DAC (amplifier end) - - > ADC - DSP - DAC (subwoofer end). Do DSP once at the DAC/amplifier end, preferably Dirac or Room Perfect, or you will be introducing all kinds of problem (timing, optimation of subpart not holistic, accumulation of multiple step SINAD etc).
You can tune your subwoofer however you want at the factory, but in-room (every room is different) response is always ugly. Things get boomy or destructive interference causes losses. DSP can fix these issues. I don't know about you, but if I'm paying $5k for a subwoofer, it'd better not be boomy or have dips. This guy is against DSP because they're like the Toyota's in the EV world. Late to adapt and getting owned by cheaper DSP capable subs. Now trying to change the narrative.
👀
Bang on mate
Im going to spend 2k eur on sub, skipping REL because they are stuck at the previous millennium..
You don't need DSP in a sub! And I'm glad REL don't do it. This thing about tinkering and tinkering to get sounds ( insert what adhesive you want) is bloody nonsense. Imperfections in music/sound is a good thing.
It used to be "audiophiles" now it's the home theaterphiles being absolute over the top. Sub DSP is all hype and marketing by guess who, American companies like SVS.
REL like to propose multiple subwoofers for your listening room, heck if they have it their way every setup would have a stack of 6 no matter how ridiculous is for most applications. Imperfections in music are coloration added to the reproduction that I'm sure whoever was the recording engineer will totally agree kill music enjoyment. DSP will help shape your system integration and read your room boundaries, resonances among other artifacts. You don't like it is fine there're people at both ends of the rope. SVS subwoofers offer a lot of bang for the buck and you have the option of ported or sealed in pretty much every model. I don't own a SVS subwoofer but a couple friends do. I was able to listen and used the app and I liked the results. We never perceived any delay or artifacts that caused any degradation, only deep, accurate and well integrated presentation. I still own a Sunfire that's been with me for over 10yrs and SVS will be on my list of options because one thing is for sure, for home theater/ music subwoofers they are hard to beat base on price vs performance.
My post isn't about love for REL, cause I don't own any. My point is, why introduce delays all over the place with DSP products, then add more DSP to remove the dela introduced. Less is more IMO.
All this tinkering is unnecessary, and I'm going to say it again. " Home theater enthusiast are the new audiophiles" super annoying and judgemental.
@@wezzman1 as I stated before, there are always people at each end of the rope and I'm fine with the fact that you don't believe in DSP, that said I do have an issue with your previous comment when you said: "sub DSP is all hype and marketing by guess who, American companies like SVS". Well it seems to me that SVS is into something given the fact that a lot of European companies are using DSP in their offerings, well known companies like: Bowers & Wilkins, Monitor Audio, KEF among others have Switched to DSP with phone apps to basically setup and optimize your subwoofer to your particular room all from your smartphone. I being involved in audio for over 30yrs I seen a lot of stuff that I know for fact is bogus or snake oil like cables with batteries, elevating cables and all sort of crazy stuff. I think DSP might have potentially a lot of benefits, I will be replacing my very old and tired subwoofer soon and already have listened to a couple of options, KEF, SVS, Paradigm among other will be considered. Already listened to a REL and came away unimpressed since it had a lot of mid-bass but deep bass like for movies was lacking. Hey I might end up buying one of those crazy American subwoofer from SVS.
Is It DSP I have in my Kef App? Then I guess you can call the Rel:s crossoverand Sub-levels DSP too😂
DSP can be great but sooo many looking at a curve and think it is great!
Nothing about how good the sound is.
Subs for HC is more like a dB drag now days.
How low can you play and how loud.
The Human Ears are the Best DSP.
...what kind of nonsense is that? I'm for example know how to integrate a subwoofer, being doing it since I was a DJ in 80-90. Lots of times I crawled all over a venue listening trying to find the "sweet spot" only to find out often that the sweet spot wasn't a viable location. DSP can help with that, human ears no so much.
I didn't know that Audioquest owns REL🤣, This guy is such a snake oil sales man. all subs need DSP the room has the biggest influence on bass waves, insane that someone who owns a subwoofer company would say this.
DSP is better off being done in the in the electronic stack before it reaches the speakers and sub. The processing causes latency and you want that latency to be as even as possible for the speakers and sub.
The only way to get away with DSP latency introduced only to the sub would be to bring it closer to the listening position than the speakers (which can be by quite a large amount more than you may expect).
@@KXP70 If only every AVR had delay settings, oh wait!
@@Edward135i well I was coming from a stereo system perspective. If you time delay your mains within a surround AVR then fair enough.
Lol, that guy is full of himself.
You're butthurt.
Maybe, but he’s def right on his positions
No he's not, that's the funny part.
Maybe you are insecure?
@@caballerosuave no, that's not it.
Yes and this is one of the reasons il never buy an American rel sub ( American as in not the original richard lord quality ones ) .
The cost is a ripoff , theres no continuous phase ...wtf, and hunter talks out OF HIS ASS !
THE MAN CLEARLY DOESN'T UNDERSTAND ROOM MODES AND PHYSICS.
Dsp can tame modes , and reduce ringing . That alone is priceless
100.000$us equipment to hear a drum or some chinnese singer , 6 array subwoofers 500w each just on 12m square and you get mad for dsp , funny ... 1000W equipment and you can find on 65million videos on youtube full volume to see how it works or how this shit sound like