Thanks for all the work you are doing testing this. I can only get 20 psi from my water source and I am learning so much from your tests. I have a 600watt solar system, 24V. I was looking at the 12/24V fridges, but opted to just get a 120V fridge and just run it through my inverter. It works amazing, it was a bit cheaper to buy and most of the year I have ample power. As I add a bit more solar, more battery capacity and additional loads, I really wish I had designed my system as a 48V system. 48 over 24 may be something you want to research before you commit. Once you buy your controllers and inverter, it is pretty expensive to change. I look forward to your next video.
I will analyze my 24 VS 48 setup carefully before I decide, your feedback is greatly appreciated and thank you for sharing your setup information with me. How many GPM do you have available?
@@robjohnston8632 With those numbers you should be able to obtain about 200 watts with a 75 mm water line. That is if you have 35 GPM year round. The biggest draw back is the cost of the water line. It is more cost effective adding additional solar panels.
The results are expected. Larger diameter rotor = more torque(more amps) and a lower freewheel speed(less voltage). Max power is to be expected at half freewheel speed. On the 48V config with variable nozzle and higher pressure with lower flow more power is expected since the water jet is faster and the freewheel speed is higher. For a 24V config a even larger rotor might be desirable when not using a charge controller since it will lower the speed and shift the maximum power point down.
You don’t want your pressure to be dropping that means you are using more water than your source can supply. My setup is 58psi, 2” pipe 700ft long and 5/16” nozzle size was the sweet spot. 400 watts on 48v system. Pelton style not turgo
Thanks for your info. The pressure will drop compared to your static pressure. But yes, once set, the pressure should sustain. I also like the Pelton over the Turgo. What is your runner size and how many spoons does it have? What is your head-height? Is 58 PSI your static pressure?
for a starting point, measure the flow rate, calculate the linear velocity of water exiting the nozzle. The tip speed of the Turgo should be about 1/2 the exit velocity for maximum power generation.
I would like to learn how we could scale this up to several turbines, wire the output in parallel, at 48V, to supplement battery charging for a solar array. thx
I have more questions than answers. Why not use a larger turbine instead of several? How much water flow and pressure do you have available? What size is your solar array? This can be done using independent charge controllers or a hybrid unit and supplying the same batteries.
But my goal is to understand how to scale regardless of diameter of turbine. I want to understand how to safely wire multiple units in to a system, such that 1) each unit is protected from the others, and 2) the combined output can be used to charge the Battery Array, but a) not drain the array, b) not damage the array, and c) not harm the inverters or other components. I can not find an online diy community, that is brain storming these ideas, so that everyone can evolve these concepts in to a viable compliment to a solar system, to supplement power when the sun is not available, and to provide extra power when sun is available. The same wiring concepts would also apply to wind. I am thinking diodes circuits would be needed to maintain energy flow as desired, and circuits to redirect as needed. But I would think this problem has already been designed and a product should exist, i just need to find it. If it does not yet exist, it is a market just waiting for a talented engineer to design a solution, or for a diy’er to create an open source schematic to help us build our own safety circuits, that would allow an array of energy sources (wind or hydro) to combine their output, protecting any back-flow of current, and to route the combined output to the batteries, without any back-flow of current, but with set points for max power to batteries, and min power of batteries to trigger input when low. When batteries are full, then circuit should have ability to reroute any output, to a non critical DC load, for various uses, such as a pump, water heater(s), or any other useful loads. I hope someone out there has some suggestions on how to achieve this idea. And can provide links where we can start evolving these concepts. thx
The best charge controller for hydro that I’ve found is the Morningstar Tristar TS-60 or TS-45. It has true dump load functionality unlike the Midnight classic which only can activate a relay to a dump load which pulls the power from your battery/inverter. The Morningstar actually pulls it from the incoming dc power from the turbine and thus isn’t micro cycling your batteries (reducing their lifespan). It’s also cheaper than the Midnight Classic.
The Tristar is a PWM controller and does not have MPPT functionality which is required to obtain maximum power out of the generator. I also don't see how it could possibly be better for your batteries when the MidNite is 100% programmable in three different stages of charging.
@@Magutz MPPT is important for solar but not hydro, PWM does just fine for hydro since it is typically a pretty constant speed without much variation. The statement about the batteries wasn't related to charging them, it does that just fine. What I was referring to was, when your batteries are charged and the current drops down and your turbine starts to speed up and can go into overspeed without a load. With the Midnite when that happens it can activate a relay to turn on a "dump" load to keep the turbine under control. (This video explains the issue th-cam.com/video/A9Meq8wLbME/w-d-xo.html) The Tristar PWM pulls that power from the DC current coming from your turbine BEFORE it ever reaches the batteries to keep the voltage at whatever your FLOAT is set to. Mine goes to a bank of resistors in the inverter box that just creates heat. Some people will put a DC rated hot water heater element (very cheap) in a hot water heater. It's a much more elegant way of doing it and I was sad to learn that the Midnite didn't do it in that fashion because I was planning to upgrade to one. Midnite makes excellent products and using their classic will work for hydro but I just don't believe it is the best way to do it based on my experience and research. Cheers.
@@Rangband1 You're making a very compelling argument, I have the MidNite Classic on hand right now so I will add the Tristar to a future video, thank you.
These are the number (theoretically) that you should shoot for: RPM: 48% of your freewheel rpm. (Ideal 50%, but you are having 10-20 degree tilt on the nozzle) PIPE PRESSURE: 66-67% of your static pressure. (because that is the sweetspot between pressure and flow) As you have an adjustable nozzle you should be able to hit these two points of RPM and Pressureloss if you are using an MPPT as an electric controller. Your setup in the video will not be stable/repeatable as you do not know the SOC % of you battery when you change setup, and therefore not have equal load on the generator. These may be some tip to get closer to your 300w goal. 🙂
I will use your numbers to calculate a fixed nozzle. On my next tests I'll be utilizing the MidNite Classic. As far as the SOC; you're correct that it does affect power output on my directly wired setup but it has only been around 5%. I will take your figures into account. Thank you.
Thanks! Something I did install on my system, is a digital water meter that shows the flow rate. I know you already know it, but it’s nice to see if that changes or fluctuates. I’m still trying to figure mine out, I have 300m of drop, only 16 gallons per minute flow, about 50/60psi, and only 32mm/1” penstock pipe. I did install the Midnite Classic 200, but it only showed me 60W. I know I have air in the system, as I don’t have a barrel at the top to air out the system and collect some of the silt. I’ll keep an eye from when you install your Midnite classic and see if can make any changes to mine to at least get to 200W. Thanks for all the time you put into this! Cheers!
@@adipreli3982 According to my formulas with a 32mm ID pipe running 300m you can expect to get 133 watts at 50 PSI and 177 watts at 60 PSI. The air will work its way out of the system as long as you don't have any low spots on your waterline. Do you have a stand pipe installed? I think it is a great idea to measure the flow rate, what flow meter are you using and how well is it working for you?
@@aRnEn87 "draining" as in water, once having expended its energy upon the wheel, can freely get away from the wheel rather than being dragged back around with the wheel, which absorbs power. water passes straight through a turgo and can get away. you can have as many nozzles as one feels necessary along its circumference. a pelton has to be horizontal, and any more than two or three nozzles and the water falls back into the blades rather than into the drain.
I am no expert on this, but shouldn't a true MPPT inverter use the same input/rpm no matter the output voltage? Since it forces the RPM down and thus the input voltage due to your generator being permanent magnet it seems more like a PWM inverter wasting all energy potential by forcing the input voltage to the same range as the output voltage?
MPPT charge controllers use a buck converter in order to do the power conversions. Allowing a higher voltage to be present at the PWM and lower, higher current at the output (battery side). How well will the MidNite Classic perform? I hope not as bad as the Epever.
You do realize that I do have a battery bank? By overloading the system and lowering the battery voltage, I'm able to see the response off the generator. Different voltages affect the load currents. In that test it was to show by how much.
Your statement is correct but sometimes there are limitation or exceptions to formulas which I may not be aware of, that may have been the reason in this case.
I am so happy you left the pipe coming off, in the video😂
Can't wait to see the Midnight Classic results!
😅
Thanks for all the work you are doing testing this. I can only get 20 psi from my water source and I am learning so much from your tests. I have a 600watt solar system, 24V. I was looking at the 12/24V fridges, but opted to just get a 120V fridge and just run it through my inverter. It works amazing, it was a bit cheaper to buy and most of the year I have ample power.
As I add a bit more solar, more battery capacity and additional loads, I really wish I had designed my system as a 48V system. 48 over 24 may be something you want to research before you commit. Once you buy your controllers and inverter, it is pretty expensive to change.
I look forward to your next video.
I will analyze my 24 VS 48 setup carefully before I decide, your feedback is greatly appreciated and thank you for sharing your setup information with me. How many GPM do you have available?
I only get about 35 gal/ minute. It’s a pretty low flow creek that is about 400Meters from where I would need to put my power shed.
@@robjohnston8632 With those numbers you should be able to obtain about 200 watts with a 75 mm water line. That is if you have 35 GPM year round. The biggest draw back is the cost of the water line. It is more cost effective adding additional solar panels.
The results are expected. Larger diameter rotor = more torque(more amps) and a lower freewheel speed(less voltage).
Max power is to be expected at half freewheel speed.
On the 48V config with variable nozzle and higher pressure with lower flow more power is expected since the water jet is faster and the freewheel speed is higher.
For a 24V config a even larger rotor might be desirable when not using a charge controller since it will lower the speed and shift the maximum power point down.
Thanks for your advise. I requested this Turgo for optimum power at 12 volts but it turned out to be at 36 volts.
You don’t want your pressure to be dropping that means you are using more water than your source can supply. My setup is 58psi, 2” pipe 700ft long and 5/16” nozzle size was the sweet spot. 400 watts on 48v system. Pelton style not turgo
Thanks for your info. The pressure will drop compared to your static pressure. But yes, once set, the pressure should sustain. I also like the Pelton over the Turgo. What is your runner size and how many spoons does it have? What is your head-height? Is 58 PSI your static pressure?
for a starting point, measure the flow rate, calculate the linear velocity of water exiting the nozzle. The tip speed of the Turgo should be about 1/2 the exit velocity for maximum power generation.
I'll try calculating it as you suggested. Thanks for the tip.
I would like to learn how we could scale this up to several turbines, wire the output in parallel, at 48V, to supplement battery charging for a solar array.
thx
I have more questions than answers. Why not use a larger turbine instead of several? How much water flow and pressure do you have available? What size is your solar array?
This can be done using independent charge controllers or a hybrid unit and supplying the same batteries.
I like idea of larger diameter turbines, creating greater torque,
good idea.
I don’t have any water available yet, just trying to understand the technology first, so i can design a robust reliable system.
Solar array is 24kW of panels capability.
Batteries 90kWh storage.
Inverters 36kW of production capability.
But my goal is to understand how to scale regardless of diameter of turbine.
I want to understand how to safely wire multiple units in to a system, such that
1) each unit is protected from the others, and
2) the combined output can be used to charge the Battery Array, but
a) not drain the array,
b) not damage the array, and
c) not harm the inverters or other components.
I can not find an online diy community, that is brain storming these ideas, so that everyone can evolve these concepts in to a viable compliment to a solar system, to supplement power when the sun is not available, and to provide extra power when sun is available.
The same wiring concepts would also apply to wind.
I am thinking diodes circuits would be needed to maintain energy flow as desired, and circuits to redirect as needed.
But I would think this problem has already been designed and a product should exist, i just need to find it.
If it does not yet exist, it is a market just waiting for a talented engineer to design a solution,
or for a diy’er to create an open source schematic to help us build our own safety circuits, that would allow an array of energy sources (wind or hydro) to combine their output, protecting any back-flow of current, and to route the combined output to the batteries, without any back-flow of current, but with set points for max power to batteries, and min power of batteries to trigger input when low. When batteries are full, then circuit should have ability to reroute any output, to a non critical DC load, for various uses, such as a pump, water heater(s), or any other useful loads.
I hope someone out there
has some suggestions on how to achieve this idea. And can provide links where we can start evolving these concepts.
thx
The best charge controller for hydro that I’ve found is the Morningstar Tristar TS-60 or TS-45. It has true dump load functionality unlike the Midnight classic which only can activate a relay to a dump load which pulls the power from your battery/inverter. The Morningstar actually pulls it from the incoming dc power from the turbine and thus isn’t micro cycling your batteries (reducing their lifespan). It’s also cheaper than the Midnight Classic.
Dang, I just installed the second Midnite. I wish I knew about the Morningstar. I set up a relay, hopefully correctly.
@@adipreli3982 it works….just not the ideal way to dump your load.
The Tristar is a PWM controller and does not have MPPT functionality which is required to obtain maximum power out of the generator. I also don't see how it could possibly be better for your batteries when the MidNite is 100% programmable in three different stages of charging.
@@Magutz MPPT is important for solar but not hydro, PWM does just fine for hydro since it is typically a pretty constant speed without much variation. The statement about the batteries wasn't related to charging them, it does that just fine. What I was referring to was, when your batteries are charged and the current drops down and your turbine starts to speed up and can go into overspeed without a load. With the Midnite when that happens it can activate a relay to turn on a "dump" load to keep the turbine under control. (This video explains the issue th-cam.com/video/A9Meq8wLbME/w-d-xo.html) The Tristar PWM pulls that power from the DC current coming from your turbine BEFORE it ever reaches the batteries to keep the voltage at whatever your FLOAT is set to. Mine goes to a bank of resistors in the inverter box that just creates heat. Some people will put a DC rated hot water heater element (very cheap) in a hot water heater. It's a much more elegant way of doing it and I was sad to learn that the Midnite didn't do it in that fashion because I was planning to upgrade to one. Midnite makes excellent products and using their classic will work for hydro but I just don't believe it is the best way to do it based on my experience and research. Cheers.
@@Rangband1 You're making a very compelling argument, I have the MidNite Classic on hand right now so I will add the Tristar to a future video, thank you.
These are the number (theoretically) that you should shoot for:
RPM: 48% of your freewheel rpm. (Ideal 50%, but you are having 10-20 degree tilt on the nozzle)
PIPE PRESSURE: 66-67% of your static pressure. (because that is the sweetspot between pressure and flow)
As you have an adjustable nozzle you should be able to hit these two points of RPM and Pressureloss if you are using an MPPT as an electric controller.
Your setup in the video will not be stable/repeatable as you do not know the SOC % of you battery when you change setup, and therefore not have equal load on the generator.
These may be some tip to get closer to your 300w goal. 🙂
I will use your numbers to calculate a fixed nozzle. On my next tests I'll be utilizing the MidNite Classic. As far as the SOC; you're correct that it does affect power output on my directly wired setup but it has only been around 5%. I will take your figures into account. Thank you.
@@Magutz How high are your head, in meters?
You pipe is 969m long and 48,2mm internal?
@@TommyFleseland Yes, that is correct and 49 meters of head.
Hello, where can I buy it?
You can get the Turgo runner from h-hydro.com/ and the generator from motenergy.com/. The housing is custom made.
What rpm reader did you end up using?
The DIGITEN 4 Digital Green LED Tachometer RPM Speed Meter, I got it from Amazon
Thanks! Something I did install on my system, is a digital water meter that shows the flow rate. I know you already know it, but it’s nice to see if that changes or fluctuates.
I’m still trying to figure mine out, I have 300m of drop, only 16 gallons per minute flow, about 50/60psi, and only 32mm/1” penstock pipe.
I did install the Midnite Classic 200, but it only showed me 60W.
I know I have air in the system, as I don’t have a barrel at the top to air out the system and collect some of the silt.
I’ll keep an eye from when you install your Midnite classic and see if can make any changes to mine to at least get to 200W.
Thanks for all the time you put into this!
Cheers!
@@adipreli3982 According to my formulas with a 32mm ID pipe running 300m you can expect to get 133 watts at 50 PSI and 177 watts at 60 PSI. The air will work its way out of the system as long as you don't have any low spots on your waterline. Do you have a stand pipe installed?
I think it is a great idea to measure the flow rate, what flow meter are you using and how well is it working for you?
I think you have too small pipe diameter to go wiyh the turgo. You should go with pelton and mppt.
I will take your advice into account, thank you.
a turgo is just half a pelton, and has better draining behaviour, more suited to multiple nozzles...
@@paradiselost9946 but to take advantage of that better draining, you need more flow, and bigger inlet pipe. He does not have that.
@@aRnEn87 "draining" as in water, once having expended its energy upon the wheel, can freely get away from the wheel rather than being dragged back around with the wheel, which absorbs power.
water passes straight through a turgo and can get away. you can have as many nozzles as one feels necessary along its circumference.
a pelton has to be horizontal, and any more than two or three nozzles and the water falls back into the blades rather than into the drain.
@@paradiselost9946 That's a good point, I have been testing both Turgo and Pelton.
I am no expert on this, but shouldn't a true MPPT inverter use the same input/rpm no matter the output voltage?
Since it forces the RPM down and thus the input voltage due to your generator being permanent magnet it seems more like a PWM inverter wasting all energy potential by forcing the input voltage to the same range as the output voltage?
MPPT charge controllers use a buck converter in order to do the power conversions. Allowing a higher voltage to be present at the PWM and lower, higher current at the output (battery side). How well will the MidNite Classic perform? I hope not as bad as the Epever.
Wait...how are you putting a 1500 watt load on a 108 w system??? am I missing something? Are you doing Terrance Howard math?
You do realize that I do have a battery bank? By overloading the system and lowering the battery voltage, I'm able to see the response off the generator. Different voltages affect the load currents. In that test it was to show by how much.
@@Magutzyou mention battery bank once at the 6:13 mark one time, I must have missed it, my bad.
@@MrDhalli6500 I didn't quite make it clear on this video on how I'm performing these tests, I'm partially at fault. Thank you for posting.
Lucky you were wearing welly's 🤣
😅
Theory says 6 degrees. And in theory, theory and practice are the same
Your statement is correct but sometimes there are limitation or exceptions to formulas which I may not be aware of, that may have been the reason in this case.
ciao la turgo lavora con 20 / 22 gradi
fai girare a vuoto la turbina e misura i volt e i giri:
il punto migliore E' LA META' DELLA TENSIONE A VUOTO
Hai ragione, ora ho bisogno dell'elettronica per fare proprio questo. Grazie.
Vini
I'm sorry but I didn't understand your post.