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That is a very good observation. Yes, that definitely will affect the power being delivered to the batteries. I have done what you suggested various times before and the results were always the same, the MPPT auto mode most of the time will be less than having it set to a fixed voltage value. You can see in this video that even at 14.4 volts using a fixed target voltage; I was able to get 200 watts out of it.

I have more questions than answers. Why not use a larger turbine instead of several? How much water flow and pressure do you have available? What size is your solar array? This can be done using independent charge controllers or a hybrid unit and supplying the same batteries.

I like idea of larger diameter turbines, creating greater torque, good idea.

I don’t have any water available yet, just trying to understand the technology first, so i can design a robust reliable system.

Solar array is 24kW of panels capability. Batteries 90kWh storage. Inverters 36kW of production capability.

But my goal is to understand how to scale regardless of diameter of turbine. I want to understand how to safely wire multiple units in to a system, such that 1) each unit is protected from the others, and 2) the combined output can be used to charge the Battery Array, but a) not drain the array, b) not damage the array, and c) not harm the inverters or other components. I can not find an online diy community, that is brain storming these ideas, so that everyone can evolve these concepts in to a viable compliment to a solar system, to supplement power when the sun is not available, and to provide extra power when sun is available. The same wiring concepts would also apply to wind. I am thinking diodes circuits would be needed to maintain energy flow as desired, and circuits to redirect as needed. But I would think this problem has already been designed and a product should exist, i just need to find it. If it does not yet exist, it is a market just waiting for a talented engineer to design a solution, or for a diy’er to create an open source schematic to help us build our own safety circuits, that would allow an array of energy sources (wind or hydro) to combine their output, protecting any back-flow of current, and to route the combined output to the batteries, without any back-flow of current, but with set points for max power to batteries, and min power of batteries to trigger input when low. When batteries are full, then circuit should have ability to reroute any output, to a non critical DC load, for various uses, such as a pump, water heater(s), or any other useful loads. I hope someone out there has some suggestions on how to achieve this idea. And can provide links where we can start evolving these concepts. thx

Good question and you're correct; it shouldn't take that much work especially when purchased as a kit. I'm glad the videos were of some help. Thanks for posting.

did you also face the issue whereby you had to increase the diameter of the turgo wheel’s central hole? If so did you file/sand it or use a grinder?

@@dreafamily1101 Yes, I used a small die grinder to enlarge it.

good to know, thank you!

Thanks for the feedback, I will look into that.

That's a good suggestion. I'll worked on getting the firmware updated, thanks.

👍

The voltage also climbs above the battery voltage on the charger side according to the MPPT setting. So it's more than the charged capacitors.

Thank you!

Thanks for the tips, I will try these out.

I am glad it was useful to you, thanks for the kind words.

I am in the US Southern Appalachian mountains.

Your feedback is greatly appreciated, thank you.

That is a great point and good advice. No we did not do any cleaning or passivation on these as they are prototypes, we use the Cougartron ProPlus when we take care of this. Thanks for your feedback.

It took me 3 tries to get anyone to respond. Try Joe directly. joe@h-hydro.com

Thank you for your encouraging feedback.

Yes, that is a good analysis of not having a noticeable power loss through the T. The air gets into the flexible lines through the adjustable nozzle when I cut the water from the main valve. That air is pushed out easily when I open it back up. This was a concern of mine when I first started testing, if any water went back up the pipe; it would drastically reduce the power. Especially since it would have to travel over a half a mile to exit out of the standpipe.

Thank you for your encouraging comments. I definitely have a lot of room for improvement.

Is it better to run as big a penstock as possible I have got 5" pipe 11m 20l

That is a decent amount of power, I'll be checking out your channel for sure. Thanks for posting.

@@johngray6462 Without a doubt, even with small flows, you should at least use a 3" pipe. That would boost my power by almost 1,000 watts. Thanks for your feedback.

@@cristof48 let me ask your advice on this, if you can help me figure it out. So, I have 350 meters of 30mm inside line, say 150 meters e elevation. I’m thinking to try feed that into a bigger barrel, to separate some of the silt and water, then feed that to a 5” line, about 100m with 30m drop. Should I do this, or transition to the 5” line without losing the pressure already built from the first drop? @magutz what do you think?

@@adipreli3982 si le gros baril n'est pas 100% étanche, la pression au niveau de la turbine sera celle générée par la chute de 30m. Si le gros baril est étanche, la pression sera celle des 150m d'élévation (+ les 30m) (c'est beaucoup, environ 18bars (260 psi) vous allez tout exploser. Si le baril n'est pas étanche, vous n'aurez pas suffisamment de débit dans le tube de 5 pouces car le tube de 350m est en 30mm

मुझे खेद है, मैं आपका आशय समझ नहीं पाया। आप किस भूत का आश्रय ले रहे हैं?

You can get the Turgo runner from h-hydro.com/ and the generator from motenergy.com/. The housing is custom made.

The rough opening is the same as the door, 9 feet. Here is short clip showing that part: th-cam.com/video/2hX3TptDUPg/w-d-xo.html

Initially I wanted 3" but it was not available during COVID, so I went with the 2". Little did I know that doing so would lower my available power from 1.3 Kilowatts to 300 watts. I think about it all the time but my line is 3,179 feet long. Yes I will but not in the near future.

@@Magutz Your videos and real world test data are great, however I think it is worth mentioning that I offer customers design analysis that matches sizing of pipeline, nozzle, turbine, and generator so that a custom H-Hydro turgo-runner will avoid the need for so much trial and error testing. There is no substitute for experienced engineering analysis. Thanks

​@@HdashHydro The 32 spoon Turgo is from H-Hydro, I also purchased the recommended nozzle. I had it calculated for 12 volts but it did best at 36 volts. You can see the test on this video. th-cam.com/video/T7-PYEp10nw/w-d-xo.html Thank you for your feedback.

@@Magutz​​⁠ Thanks. I think the weak link in the calculation sequence is the PMA data (winding resistance and “back EMF” V/krpm). Thanks

@@HdashHydro Thank you for the update.

Yes totally, I will try a PWM direct connect controller once I find the Turgo/Pelton that gives me the most power. Thanks for posting.

That is a great observation, I would still add some type of controller to limit your float voltage.

Thank you for your encouraging post.

I agree and that is great advice. But I am running multiple and temporary tests. One of the leaks comes from the main bulkhead which I had custom manufactured and has just arrived. Thanks for posting.

Thank you! I agree 100%, a complete kit would be great.

I'm sorry but I didn't understand your post.

I will and thank you for your encouraging words.

Will do, thanks for posting.

My biggest problem is the distance to the water intake (3,179 feet) and only having a 1.9 inch I.D. pipe. What is your head-height or pressure and distance to your intake?

I am 400M and I get 21 PSI. That is enough for showers and low flow sprinkler. If I need more pressure, I run a 12v in-line pump that boosts it up to 60PSI.

@@robjohnston8632 Nice! A pipe size of 48mm at 20 GPM (76 LPM) could give you 88 watts, with a 80mm pipe it would jump up to 300 watts but you would need 70 GPM (265 LPM).

Thanks for your nicely detailed explanation and breakdown. Your feedback is greatly appreciated.

HughesNet is just good enough to get by, Netflix and TH-cam work fine but as far as uploading videos and VoIP is very laggy. But it is $50 US cheaper than Starlink. For now it will do and I di plan on upgrading in the future (if I ever finish that old house). Thanks you for sharing.

A smaller PMA (I believe that's what you mean) is a good idea and I will test some in the future. An alternator is not practical because they require about 50 watts just to excite the rotor, with these small systems, we can't afford to waste that much power. How much water pressure and flow do you have? That would determine how much power you could expect out of it. Thanks for posting.

What set up do you have? How many watts are you producing? I am interested in the different “small” systems.

@@robjohnston8632 ME1016 Generator (1000 watts @ 1000 RPM), ME2104 Adjustable 0.63" Spear nozzle, ME0903 Pelton 8" diameter, 12 spoon, 6.25" pitch. The housing is my own. So far the most power I've been able to get is 264.7 watts (that was with the 32 spoon Turgo).

@adipreli3982 I was hoping to hear what size system (pipe size and distance and head) you have and what you have created for your system.

@@robjohnston8632 pipe size 48 mm, distance 969 meters, head 49 meters (70 PSI). Power output so far is 264 watts.

Static pressure is 70 PSI and set to 42 PSI when I ran that test but it varies between that and 47 PSI, so you are correct. I'll keep that in mind (46.2 PSI) Thanks for your input.

Yes, I was hoping it would, unlike the Epever which was disappointing. Thanks for posting.

ME1016 Generator (1000 watts @ 1000 RPM), ME2104 Adjustable 0.63" Spear nozzle, ME0903 Pelton 8" diameter, 12 spoon, 6.25" pitch. The housing is my own.

You are totally right and also requiring thicker wires, this does give us the option to choose lower battery arrays at minimum losses.

Try flash boil steam with a pelton turbine

@@Jkauppa That is a novel idea but that would be outside the scope of this series. Thanks for posting.

Yes you are right, everyone uses large diameter feed lines, I wanted to see what the losses would be. I'm still working on it and will return to this prototype for comparison. The grinding noise turned out to be the clearance between the generator shaft and the housing. Thanks for posting.

@@Magutz When I saw your six sided housing I thought you were going to make a six jet Pelton turbine similar to industrial size Peltons. Good to hear the grinding noise was not a stator/rotor clearance issue.

@@chrisdaniel1339 I just may try that in the future to see if I can get 300 watts using six 3/4" water line feeds. Thanks.

You do realize that I do have a battery bank? By overloading the system and lowering the battery voltage, I'm able to see the response off the generator. Different voltages affect the load currents. In that test it was to show by how much.

@@Magutzyou mention battery bank once at the 6:13 mark one time, I must have missed it, my bad.

@@MrDhalli6500 I didn't quite make it clear on this video on how I'm performing these tests, I'm partially at fault. Thank you for posting.

I will take your advice into account, thank you.

a turgo is just half a pelton, and has better draining behaviour, more suited to multiple nozzles...

@@paradiselost9946 but to take advantage of that better draining, you need more flow, and bigger inlet pipe. He does not have that.

@@aRnEn87 "draining" as in water, once having expended its energy upon the wheel, can freely get away from the wheel rather than being dragged back around with the wheel, which absorbs power. water passes straight through a turgo and can get away. you can have as many nozzles as one feels necessary along its circumference. a pelton has to be horizontal, and any more than two or three nozzles and the water falls back into the blades rather than into the drain.

@@paradiselost9946 That's a good point, I have been testing both Turgo and Pelton.

I will analyze my 24 VS 48 setup carefully before I decide, your feedback is greatly appreciated and thank you for sharing your setup information with me. How many GPM do you have available?

I only get about 35 gal/ minute. It’s a pretty low flow creek that is about 400Meters from where I would need to put my power shed.

@@robjohnston8632 With those numbers you should be able to obtain about 200 watts with a 75 mm water line. That is if you have 35 GPM year round. The biggest draw back is the cost of the water line. It is more cost effective adding additional solar panels.

😅

I will use your numbers to calculate a fixed nozzle. On my next tests I'll be utilizing the MidNite Classic. As far as the SOC; you're correct that it does affect power output on my directly wired setup but it has only been around 5%. I will take your figures into account. Thank you.

@@Magutz How high are your head, in meters? You pipe is 969m long and 48,2mm internal?

@@TommyFleseland Yes, that is correct and 49 meters of head.

MPPT charge controllers use a buck converter in order to do the power conversions. Allowing a higher voltage to be present at the PWM and lower, higher current at the output (battery side). How well will the MidNite Classic perform? I hope not as bad as the Epever.

I'll try calculating it as you suggested. Thanks for the tip.

The DIGITEN 4 Digital Green LED Tachometer RPM Speed Meter, I got it from Amazon

Thanks! Something I did install on my system, is a digital water meter that shows the flow rate. I know you already know it, but it’s nice to see if that changes or fluctuates. I’m still trying to figure mine out, I have 300m of drop, only 16 gallons per minute flow, about 50/60psi, and only 32mm/1” penstock pipe. I did install the Midnite Classic 200, but it only showed me 60W. I know I have air in the system, as I don’t have a barrel at the top to air out the system and collect some of the silt. I’ll keep an eye from when you install your Midnite classic and see if can make any changes to mine to at least get to 200W. Thanks for all the time you put into this! Cheers!

@@adipreli3982 According to my formulas with a 32mm ID pipe running 300m you can expect to get 133 watts at 50 PSI and 177 watts at 60 PSI. The air will work its way out of the system as long as you don't have any low spots on your waterline. Do you have a stand pipe installed? I think it is a great idea to measure the flow rate, what flow meter are you using and how well is it working for you?

Dang, I just installed the second Midnite. I wish I knew about the Morningstar. I set up a relay, hopefully correctly.

@@adipreli3982 it works….just not the ideal way to dump your load.

The Tristar is a PWM controller and does not have MPPT functionality which is required to obtain maximum power out of the generator. I also don't see how it could possibly be better for your batteries when the MidNite is 100% programmable in three different stages of charging.

@@Magutz MPPT is important for solar but not hydro, PWM does just fine for hydro since it is typically a pretty constant speed without much variation. The statement about the batteries wasn't related to charging them, it does that just fine. What I was referring to was, when your batteries are charged and the current drops down and your turbine starts to speed up and can go into overspeed without a load. With the Midnite when that happens it can activate a relay to turn on a "dump" load to keep the turbine under control. (This video explains the issue th-cam.com/video/A9Meq8wLbME/w-d-xo.html) The Tristar PWM pulls that power from the DC current coming from your turbine BEFORE it ever reaches the batteries to keep the voltage at whatever your FLOAT is set to. Mine goes to a bank of resistors in the inverter box that just creates heat. Some people will put a DC rated hot water heater element (very cheap) in a hot water heater. It's a much more elegant way of doing it and I was sad to learn that the Midnite didn't do it in that fashion because I was planning to upgrade to one. Midnite makes excellent products and using their classic will work for hydro but I just don't believe it is the best way to do it based on my experience and research. Cheers.

@@Rangband1 You're making a very compelling argument, I have the MidNite Classic on hand right now so I will add the Tristar to a future video, thank you.

Thanks for your info. The pressure will drop compared to your static pressure. But yes, once set, the pressure should sustain. I also like the Pelton over the Turgo. What is your runner size and how many spoons does it have? What is your head-height? Is 58 PSI your static pressure?

Thanks for your advise. I requested this Turgo for optimum power at 12 volts but it turned out to be at 36 volts.