Eldritch knight will get better over time but battlemaster right now is very good with multiclassing. It’s very easy to get 3-4 control affects in a single attack.
@@DonMagaroni really heavily depends on between what levels and the build. Changing the weapons greatly changes the priorities and even the maneuvers do the same. I think barb is much better than your instincts might infer. For one getting more masteries is suprisingly helpful in a lot of situations. Not to mention the skill and duration buffs on range. Getting advantage can ensure your debuffs land also. Basically any martial is worth considering rn and there’s specific merits to certain caster dips.
Good looking out! Also, how in Avernus did Champion muster a B tier? Having Champion at the same level as Psi Warrior...does not square with my analysis.
@@brianl9571 I would assume that it's the same thing as here. It's situationally awesome. It just so happens that the situations that they are awesome in is either "you need to make a character in 30minutes no revisions time starts now" and "newcomers first character to familiarise themselves with core rules of DND that is either a one shot character or intended to be changed for a different character later in the campaign" There aren't any classes better for those situations.
@brianl9571 Champion's perfectly fine, and on a tier list with 5 tiers that puts them at B. They're not particularly good at anything, but they're also not bad at anything. They're just boring ontop of that.
@@brianl9571 Because while champion ceiling is low, its floor is also high. It's a hard subclass to get wrong, even if the person playing is a 7 year old who has never played before.
~43:10 Three quarters cover is +5, half cover is +2. Applies to not just AC, but DEX saves as well ==EDIT== Feature does seem to be half cover rather than three quarters as well, so it'd be the +2 AC and DEX save
19:43 I don't disagree with your ranking for the Champion, but I do disagree with your point here. The Champion DOES have synergy with a basic fighter ability - extra feats. Crusher, Slasher, and Piercer have some great on-critical effects, especially Crusher and Slasher. Seriously, go look them up. They're straight-up S-tier abilities. The Champion has double the chance to crit MINIMUM. Add in Heroic Warrior (10) and Superior Critical (15) and it gets even better. This is where I think the true strength of the Champion lies.
Great Weapons Master even more so - a Bonus Action attack every time you crit is so good on a Champion! Elven Accuracy could be great for a Vex-Dex Champion if your table uses XGE feats
Might be even better on a halfling due to lucky. Yes I agree that the crit effects are great, it's like getting 2 weapon masteries from a single attack that also shares it with the party members. (if I remember correctly)
@@SortKaffe I've been thinking about a crit fishing build with this play. Getting Elven Acc. on a Champion and then even going to Valor Bard to get their extra attack magical secrets might be really good (yes ik that crit-fishing builds aren't considered very good but don't yuck my yum XD)
Something I don’t see discussed very much is the fact that Heroic Inspiration can be used to reroll even dice that have already been rerolled. So an Elf Champion with their 18-20 crit range can choose to roll 4 dice when they have advantage bringing them to an almost 50% chance to crit.
"Champion lacks synergy." Heroic inspiration stacks with the increased crit range. Feats--which the fighter gets more of--can give you effects on crits, additional attacks on crits, etc. Heroic inspiration also serves as a good backup for Indomitable, but while you have indomitable "charges" left, you can use that as free advantage every round. You can also do other things, like using a topple weapon to give yourself advantage on attacks... which is even better with increased crit range AND still stacks with heroic inspiration. There are a ton of things you can do with this subclass to really crank up those two abilities.
Throw 2 levels of Barb for reckless attack in there. You delay getting your reckless attack, but you're now getting advantage in almost all cases, a 20% chance to crit, at level 5. Plus danger sense. If you're giving up your extra attack at level 5, you want those crits to count, so two-weapon fighting is actually more viable for a fighter. AC 16 but hey, that's what spells are for right?
Elven accuracy and finess or dex weapons for extra chances of criting. Piercer for extra damage on every piercing critical hit (short swords, daggers, bows etc.)
One synergy the Champion gets - feats that trigger on critical hits, like Slasher, Piercer etc. That's really nice. Still don't disagree with anything you said there.
But you also need to be careful with the Champion's extended critical hit range, to make sure you don't miss which things trigger on rolling a natural 20 on an attack roll (like certain magic items, and Epic Boons), and which features trigger on a "critical hit".
This banks on crit fishing, which the numbers just say is a bad tactic. Its not bad as an elf woth elven accuracy - but other than that, youre not getting a whole lot from any ceot builds
@@outofideas42elf, elven accuracy, shadow monk and a few lvls of battle master fighter may do the trick? Always advantage fighting in darkness and triple advantage. Assuming improved crit works with monk unarmed attacks
I really like the look of using the various weapon feats and having advantage on basically every attack. Use the Inspiration for the first attack with a Topple weapon and shield master to force 2 saves to stay standing. Then you go nuts with whatever weapon feat you like. Id have put it in A tier personally. Having played the old one and get a crit or two basically every round felt great, and now its just better.
17:21 Keep in mind re the Champion Fighter's Heroic Inspiration: at that level you also have the Indomitable feature which you can use for scary Saving Throws. And by the time you get to the really scary fights against Lichs and other magic users, you may have more than one use of Indomitable available. So until your Indomitable uses are used up, you could just use your Heroic Inspiration on your attacks freely. Note: I'm not disputing the ranking, it's fair. But if someone wants to go with that subclass, keep this in mind. Edit: The more I think about it, with the inclusion of Weapon Masteries, a subclass like the Champion now has about the level of versatility of a 2014 Battle Master. BUT, a 2024 Battle Master that is also using Weapon Masteries is boosted up to an even higher level now.
Thank you for defending champion, I've never gone a fighter before but I really want to try a champion fighter as my first fighter under the new rules.
@@Cryodrake Don't feel bad at all. I see all these min/maxers saying Battlemaster is the best, but I played one for several sessions and, even though I'm no dummy, there were just too many options for my taste. Analysis Paralysis can be a problem when the complexity is higher than your preferred playstyle.
For Champion, I probably wouldn't bother saving the inspiration for saving throws, just because Indomitable will be better for resisting those nasty save or suck spells. Once you use Indomitable I might start saving the inspiration.
There's a case for true strike over Booming Blade/GFB. If you are playing an archer, True Strike isn't melee only, and it's not too difficult for a fighter to get 16 int, and with archery fighting style 16 int is as accurate as 20 str with a melee attack!
Another very cool Battlemaster (if I understand the rules correctly): Riposte with a Sap weapon. Sap gives the enemy Disadvantage on their next attack, making it much more likely they’ll miss you and thereby trigger the reaction attack. AND if you hit them with that reaction attack….they now also have disadvantage on their second attack that turn (if they have any)
I’ve watched every session of the Dudes, and I find the “glue” between Kelly and Monty is the obvious chemistry and how they play off each other with their geeky anecdotes and wholesome nerdiness…love it!!
@@Thuase I think the Skilled feat gives Expertise at level 4. By level 5 assume +4 from strength, +6 from Expertise. Advantage and +10 on grapple and prone beatdowns.
At the coste of the Magic initiate: druid and a single bonus action Shillelagh, is completely possible to play a full INT Eldritch Knight that takes spells like Hideous laughter, earthen grasp and even slow, fear and hypnotic pattern
Same for Psi Warrior - Shillelah and max int. You can dip 1-3 levels of wizard and war magic. It's crazy good and works well with fay touched, telekinetic etc.
@@BigWeightRevis that assuming two attacks per Attack action? does that go: Attack 1 club, Attack 2 Truestrike Scimitar, Nick Attack Club, bonus action club? Sorry still wrapping my head around the nick property.
@@penabler exactly, true strike with a Scimitar to activate Nick, free attack with a light Club, Extra attack with the said club and BA attack again with the club. All of them use INT provided you cast shillelagh on turn 1
One thing I'd love to see is comparing the new rank against the 2014 rank and a brief discussion of what you think are the key changes that affected the shift
Even without XGE cantrips, I'd still say S thanks to one indirect buff: buying spell scrolls in base adventuring gear. This let's them buy 1st level spells they either don't have prepared or back ups of defensive spells should they not want to use a higher spell slot.
Chill Touch is also not that bad choice for replacing one of your attacks with, it does 2d10 by the time you get war magic, which is already probably about as much as you would do with a single attack, and gets way better at level 11 when it goes to 3d10.
@kelmirosue3251 @kelmirosue3251 True, but that assumes you have the spell prepared. Additionally, there are times many times when using downtime isn't an option. For example: You have the shield spell prepared and just spent your downtime making Shield spell scrolls. After downtime, you discover that your next adventure would benefit from having a niche spell like Jump or Witch Bolt. Since it is niche, you'd likely not have it prepared, thus can't even make the scroll. However, you can now just buy it for 50 gp each. Additionally, if your INT is
The music in the beginning made it hard to hear. Love you the class overview followed by tier rankings. Now the long wait for the warlock begins 😢😅 thank you for the content!
Champion Fighter is my absolute favorite Fighter subclass! I love to play it because it allows me to focus on the roleplay element of the game while my character will be able to do what he have to do (hit hard! :D )
Champion should be A and Psi Warrior a B imo. New champion is very underrated with the interplay between indomitable and inspiration, and the new way feats work and weapon masteries with the expanded crit range.
The Champion is the type of warrior we see in movies and TV, the one who always gets back up, lands critical hits to take down enemies, and decks/kicks their opponent while also swinging their weapon. Also, for a combination of two Fighting Styles, Throwing Weapon Fighting works in synergy with Archery (Darts) and Two Weapon Fighting.
Dudes! Thanks for starting the new tier rankings. I appreciate the change to onscreen lists. The highlight feature makes it easier to see in front of the background image bleeding through like a watermark.
At level 10 you can do some funny things with the eldritch strike and war magic features. Slap the enemy with your weapon of choice and use the push weapon mastery via the tactical master feature. Then use your extra attack to cast lightning lure on them to pull them back in (they get disadvantage on the save via eldritch strike) dealing 2d8 lightning. Then action surge and pummel them some more. "GET OVER HERE!"
I think the most pleasantly suprising thing about the new phb is that from species to classes to subclasses it really does seem like even though there are certainly options that are better than others that there are none that I can look at and immediately go "yeah I wouldn't make a character that uses this", everything is at least interesting enough to make me think about character ideas centering around that option, I want to play a goliath now, I want to play a beastmaster now, I want to play an assassin rogue now, and on top of that I still want to play a sorcerer, a vengeance paladin, and a human. All the options seem fun!
Likewise, the melee cantrips are not to be found in Xanathar's. They were originally published in the SCAG, and reprinted with modifications in Tasha's.
Built a Battle Master the other day just to kinda see what we were working with. There is a lot going on now between all the various ways you can use the Fighter's base features, weapon mastery and combat maneuvers. Despite the damage nerf to sharpshooter, I still think a ranged Battle Master has a lot of power potential since many maneuvers can be used at range. Commander's Strike in particular (especially combined w/Distracting Strike) is a great way to help your rogue get off a second sneak attack each round...especially once you get Relentless @ level 15.
With every class feature book that comes out, there are going to be new wizard spells, and eldritch knight is going to continue grow in options. What excites me the most about the subclass is just that mono-school of spell casting thought experiments. What does an EK look like with all necromancy, all Illusion, or all transmutation spells. Even if suboptimal in combat, it seems like it will always be fun to play.
Psi-Warrior is an A and a big part of that is the feature that you hardly mentioned. Its level 10 feature combined with indomitable makes it an absolute beast at saving throws and removing effects on itself.
Man idk bout that Champion review, I’ve been surprisingly stoked about this subclass since the overhaul. Me personally, I’ve got a Goliath gladiator champion fighter planned, with the unarmed and thrown weapon fighting styles. Toss in tavern brawler, savage attacker, and eventually tough and you got an absolute unit
25:48 with the way shillelagh, weapon masteries, and magic initiate are worded (shillelagh does not specify which spellcasting ability you use, only saying you use the spellcasting ability used to cast it; weapon masteries also do not specify the ability used to make saves, only mentioning the ability used to make attack/damage rolls; and magic initiate lets you choose whichever spellcasting ability you please to cast the spells gained via it), you can absolutely use a quarterstaff and use shillelagh to make your attack rolls and weapon masteries using INT (and now it scales as well!), maintain synergy with polearm master, and use attack roll spells. Certain attack roll cantrips also come baked in with battlefield control or utility like thorn whip, mind sliver, or ray of frost, certain spells like tasha's hideous laughter also work, and since a fighter isn't going to be casting higher level spells witch bolt can also make up a lot of damage (and by level 5, you will have a d10 one handed weapon, tactical master will allow for more masteries, etc). To demo an int based eldritch knight, imagine a level 10 eldritch knight completely shutting down enemies by using mind sliver, eldritch strike, then hideous laughter or cause fear, and because of their high spell save DC, mind sliver, and associated disadvantage take an enemy out reliably, and then even loop the situation with eldritch strike and mind sliver if they wish to do so. This just spirals more and more out of control as Eldritch knights gain more spells, with not that much worse of a performance at lower levels. This trick is probably significantly more useful on a valor bard, but a straight int eldritch knight fighter is very good.
I've been thinking about an int based fighter and this is a great approach. Additionally, once you reach level 7 you can swap your fighting style to take two weapon Fighting. Now you can use shillelagh (with a club) in one hand and then a different light weapon that has the Nick property (e.g. dagger). The club will use your int from shillelagh and you can cast true strike as a cantrip as part of your attack action. This then opens up a third (and possibly fourth with dual wielding) attack with your boosted club.
@@ReallyRobEgan I've been looking for a way to make two weapon fighting work and this is it, although I don't think 4 attacks can quite work. If you can make 2 attacks with the club and make the third from a light hammer and apply true strike to that (which works), there's your three attacks, but the fourth attack will have to be made using the str modifier as you can't cast shillelagh on 2 weapons at once or cast true strike twice, or attack thrice with a club. Now, were we to compare quarterstaff and two weapons, here are the pros Pros of using a quarterstaff: 1. You can take dueling instead of two weapon fighting and gain +2 to rolls, or use protection for utility, or take great weapon fighting (rerolling 1 and 2 to 3 is not great, but with polearm master and it working on true strike/other cantrips like GFB or BB's on hit roll, we can expect a 1.8 average damage increase if we do 1 attack, 1 cantrip, 1 bonus action attack from polearm master. Nothing stellar, but it's an option) for nice variety. I'd probably go with duelling. 2. You can take polearm master and do a d4+ability mod of damage using bonus action anyways 3. You have the topple mastery, generally better than slow on the club. Pros of 2 weapons: 1. We retain our bonus action, very important if we took a feat to get hunter's mark or hex or compelled duel via fey touched, or are using witch bolt to do sustained single target damage, as nick doesn't use bonus actions, which we can do as 2. We have a free feat as polearm master isn't required here, which can help gain us more spells and features (war caster, both fey touched and shadow touched, etc). or even just taking dual wielder feat and using a scimitar/shortsword offhand instead of a light hammer, increasing AC and average damage by 1. Honestly while I can see this being up to preference, two weapon fighting also being viable and probably just better for damage is great!
@@theformation3781 Quarterstaff can be used one handed, so I'd probably take that over a club, from what I said earlier. In the 5.24 rules the dual wielder feat doesn't give a +1 ac, but it lets you make an approval ba attack that is in addition to what you would make with the Nick property. On turn 1 you would use your BA setting up shillelagh but then after that you would get 4 attacks. I would say that before you can start casting cantrips at level 7 then you should stick to a different fighting style than two weapon fighting. On round one cast shillelagh and then witch bolt. On subsequent rounds you can attack with your action and do damage from witch bolt with your BA. Whatever the case, I'm glad that an int based fighter is viable now.
43:10 Its half cover not 3/4 cover, and it provides a +2 to AC and Dexterity saving throws, but I agree they could have written that in the feature itself, I guess the point is that guarded mind doesn't stack with cover, but since its a 15th level feature, I don't see why it shouldn't
Would you make a part 2 of this video discussing how other fighter subclasses like the echo knight, samurai, rune knight etc would work with the new 2024 base fighter class??
The core/ vanilla subclasses all needed more. Like champion could have gotten an extra action surge, a guaranteed crit on first action surge attack, better second wind and some more bloodied buffs
No, crit fishing was and still is a fool’s errand. You’re always better off finding ways to increase the average damage of your normal attacks, which basically any of these other subclasses can do better.
Hi boys! Just to clarify - you mentioned Booming Blade and Spirit Shroud when talking about the Eldritch Knight. Those spells are actually from Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything, not Xanathar's
The summary on what each BM maneuver does is super useful. Playing a 7th lvl 2024 BM conversion, and at my age, 58, I tend to get menu lock choosing manuevers...
A champion with the Alert origin feat has advantage on initiative, and can then swap their initiative with another party member. Somewhat helpful for when your blaster ally or the cleric roll low initiative and are needed asap. Nothing crazy but I thought it worth mentioning
The free heroic inspiration is probably really good for a Champion trying to crit fish. Also, you get that after Indomitable, so you can probably freely use it until you've burned Indomitable on a save or suck spell.
the Goliaths Cloud giants Jaunt ability is a way to acquire misty step without taking the spell and thus giving you and extra option. Not to mention since it isnt a spell you can use it and cast a leveled spell on the same turn. And the amount of uses you get with it scales with your proficiency....honestly goliaths seem really good for fighters this edition
You are right about Champion but there IS Synergy. Advantage every turn combos with improved crit. I don't think champion is a good choice for most players but I think it absolutely has it's place in multiclassing. Smite based paladin grabbing Action Surge may indeed want improved crit. Likely other classes do too.
My education was in research and statistics, and my hunch was rerolling damage is super undervalued by the community because it decreases variance and shifts the results around and above the average, these benefits arent as easily understood as "increasing your average dmg by X" ... I looked at a Greataxe with Great Weapon Fighting(2014 rules. New version isn't as good) and Savage attacker over thousands of simulated rolls and let me tell you, the elimination of bad damage rolls feels great on a roll by roll basis in a way whiteboard avg dmg increase doesnt communicate.... if you have a Champion with heroic inspiration every round on top, you're really getting somewhere with your dmg rolls because essentially anything under avg dmg becomes a mathematical outlier leaving a huge % of your rolls doing great chunks of damage
I've always disliked the discourse about rerolling damage being sub-optimal. Sure, statistically it's not as good but rolling snake eyes on a greatsword and being like "actually no" feel so good at the table.
I still feel that Great Weapon Fighting is almost useless for any weapon besides greatsword and maul, the 2d6 weapons. Changing a 1 or 2 for a 3 is a marginal improvement for a greataxe or any of the polearm weapons or versatile weapons with 2 hands. But replacing a 1+1 on a greatsword for a 3+3 on 2d6 does feel great.
One other change to the champion fighter; remarkable athlete now has a new bullet point that allows you to move half your speed whenever you land a critical hit
My favorite Psi Warrior from the past edition was as a battlefield medic. He took the healer feat, he was relocating allies out of danger or pulling them close to bandage them up, he was expending dice to lower allies concentration saves a few times, he lifted an ally into a tree out of reach when we got ambushed at one point, he did the chasm crossing thing, etc. etc. I'm glad they included it as an option because it is so flexible.
Champion fighter is the best using the crusher, piercer, and slasher feats since they have the largest crit range. They are the best sword and board getting both a damage increase and protection. Additionally they can maximize weapon damage: Thrown + two weapon fighting, thrown + dueling, or two weapon fighting + dueling if your dm is ok with weapon juggling. I also argue they are one of the best tank builds between their passive healing, protection, and the ability to lock people's movement between topple slow push
So, other than Champion not "synergizing", I don't see why it necessarily deserves a B. The big contributing factor for the B tier is that it "works with the right build"... but the Champion works pretty much with *every* Fighter build. It's less varied, but it's also far more straightforward and less prone to making the "wrong" choice. Honestly, I think the Champion deserves an A, because it will always work. It may not be flashy, but it is certainly *dependable*. It's your "work horse" sub-class: It might not be pretty, but it will always get the job done. I'd probably not give it a high A, but a low A is very fitting for Champion. As for the Battle Master vs Eldritch Knight "debate", the Dudes only give the Eldritch Knight the leg up over the Battle Master *if* they get access to Zanathar's, which feels a bit like DM decision and almost like the definition of "works with the right build" (though in this case DM ruling instead of build). Meanwhile, the Battle Master doesn't need that kind of special ruling or not. Therefore, I'd say for consistency, the Battle Master is above the Eldritch Knight. Psi Warrior's a bit of a rough one, seeing as how it's a bit more MAD than the others. It does have some interesting features, though. High B or low A. Overall, the Fighter Tier rankings I'd see being: S Rank: Battle Master > Eldritch Knight A: Rank: Champion = Psi Warrior
I think you're underestimating the fusion of increased crit range plus infinite rerolls, this means that the Champion now has the chance to basically crit every other turn give or take, amd also almost never miss their attacks, so a character that wants to crit a lot, or just not miss their one big hit the champion is a very good accuracy boost.
I think the free Heroic Inspiration once a turn is maybe undervalued here. I know previously many folks, the Dudes included, very highly valued Lucky, which I believe did let you impose disadvantage, but if you oresented a feature to someone a couple years ago saying: you get a luck point to use on any roll, infinite amount, but once a turn, I think people would have flipped. Maybe just me. Yes it does come at level 10 but thats still incredibly useful.
Extended Crit range has synergy with the slasher/crusher/piercer crit features. Those crit effects bypass legendary resistance. Heroic Inspiration comes back at the beginning of the champions turn. Can be used with Attacks until indomitable is used up. Heroic inspiration can also be used with the Survivor feature. Reroll a death save die you already have advantage on for an additional chance to roll an 18-20 on the death save while downed. 38.5% chance to critically succeed every turn. Almost a 77% chance to critically save over 3 turns if not failing saves before you stabalize. 91% chance to critically succeed after 5 turns, maximum amount of turns before a death or stabilization has to occur. also basically a 99% chance to stabilize if nothing is forcing death saves on you. Advantage on all initiative rolls is pretty badass. Advantage on all strength Athletics checks is badass. Additional movement without attacks of opportunity for every crit is nice and weirdly enough seems to be able to happen multiple times on your turn, or on another creatures turn from a reaction attack.
Did you guy's forget the extra mobility on crits of the champion's remarkable athlete or did i just miss it? Because i think its a significant boost and it scales well with the rest of their abilities.
Best fix for champion fighter is just expand the crit range earlier and more. 18-20 at level 3, 17-20 at level 10 (or level 7), 16-20 level 15 (or level 13), 15-20 level 20 (or level 18)
You should do a segment at these end of these videos, or this could be its own video after all the classes, talking about how your previous rankings for the non-2024 subclasses change in the context of the 2024 rules.
The thing that will make the Eldritch Knight overtake the Battlemaster (if you don't think it already is) will be the proliferatin of new spells that will come out versus the tiny number of new manoeuvres that will appear.
Champion has the best synergy with Magic Weapons that do extra damage like Flame Tongue. By the time you get Superior Critical, you have to have at least some Magic Weapons.
My character: eldritch knight with sage background for magic initiate wizard. Two additional cantrips and an additional level one spell. Works for local churches as a security guard and a custodian in exchange for access to their high level libraries where he secretly studies his passion: magic. He's basically will hunting.
Has anyone else mentioned that True Strike, which Monty mistakenly says is a melee attack, can also be applied to ranged weapons? This would allow you to use a crossbow as a 16 STR/16 INT character at low levels and starting at level 6 just add a d6 damage on any attack you felt you could still land with INT vs STR.
I think you’re undervaluing everything the champion is bringing to the table in terms of “switch hitting.” If we’re talking about average damage per round, each time the fighter goes without hitting they massively bring down their average contribution to a fight. Between built-in rerolls to hit and an extra fighting style where they can snag archery for that +2, Champions are the only subclass that can forego pumping dex with their ASIs and still be able to reliably hit with great weapon fighter longbow attacks.
I will forever love these videos. Also can yall try a fade in for your intro music I love that you condensed it, but its surprsing every time. Idk. It’s the small things.
I think the Champion is probably the only character option that would make it worthwhile to reroll damage. But only if you hit on all your attacks, though then you don't have it on saving throws.
One thing to note is that staffs are also considered quarterstaffs, and Shillelagh works on them, and magic initiate also allows you to choose the mental stat you want to use, so you actually can bond with a staff as it's also considered a weapon. This means you can use a staff as a weapon that can use intelligence (so full INT eldritch knight is possible) and an arcane focus for you wizard spells, it can't be taken from you, you can call it to your hands with a bonus action no matter the distance as long as it's in the same plane of existence (leaving an emergency staff at home or another safe location in case yours is destroyed could be useful), the bond can't even be broken by anyone other than you, AND it has topple to get advantage on spells with melee attack rolls (or even ranged ones if you take spell sniper to remove the disadvantage), AND it can benefit from dueling and polearm master. And depending on DM's interpretation (though it's definitely not RAI, and depending on the way you read may not be RAW either), Shillelagh could replace the damage of the bonus attack from polearm master and make it basically an extra attack but without topple. However, most DM's will probably not allow this so don't count on it
I had to rebuild a scofflaw scout for the 2024 rules. Now they're a champion assassin, because the advantage on initiative and crit range synergizes super well.
I really think Champion's Remarkable Athlete could have dropped the advantage on initiative to instead allow the fighter when they critically hit with a weapon or unarmed strike to recover a use of Action Surge or their next use of Action Surge this turn doesn't Expend a use of the ability. I don't even think it would even be that strong early game with a 10% chance each attack (not accounting for advantage).
Insanely, the Fey-touched feat lets you pick ANY divination spell and you gain misty step too. No list restrictions. Hunter's mark is divination, and fighter's have proficiency in Con saves. You can cast one of them free, and than use spell slots, so extra useful on an EK. Fighters are still better Rangers than the Ranger. Want to play BM hunter, dip one level warlock, take pact of the chain, and have a shiny amazing sphinx.
Champion should always use their inspiration for hits because when that nasty liches 'turn' comes round you have a fresh one to roll for the saving throw. :o)
As for the Champion, saving the Heroic inspiration for a saving throw is nice option if you have already used indomitable. Having a paladin nearby (or being a Paladin with 3 levels of champion) just makes you laugh at "hard' saves. If you haven't used indomitable yet, then go for it for attacks, or a weak damage roll. Last round of a fight, save it so you have inspiration to use for a skill through the day. With the right weapon property though, use Heroic advantage on your first Vex weapon, hit, then you get advantage on that hit, and the next...
Wow, loving the new slide presentation style, looks great and makes it super easy to follow along and reference what you're talking about
Awesome, thank you!
Agreed!
Eldritch knight will get better over time but battlemaster right now is very good with multiclassing. It’s very easy to get 3-4 control affects in a single attack.
ooh yeah get battlemaster and get to the point where barbarians get topple or push on every attack and you're really cooking
Eldritch Knight will keep getting better as more wizard spells get released, too. XD😂
Which multiclass do you suggest? I feel barbarian is less crucial because you dont have to compensate gwm malus with reckless attack..
@@DonMagaroni really heavily depends on between what levels and the build. Changing the weapons greatly changes the priorities and even the maneuvers do the same.
I think barb is much better than your instincts might infer. For one getting more masteries is suprisingly helpful in a lot of situations. Not to mention the skill and duration buffs on range. Getting advantage can ensure your debuffs land also.
Basically any martial is worth considering rn and there’s specific merits to certain caster dips.
@@insertname5371 im running batlemaster with gwm... Any recommendations, especially on the crowd control you mentioned?
Just for anyone wondering, their 2014 ruleset tierlist had:
Battle Master at S
Champion at B
Eldritch Knight at A
and Psi Warrior at B
Good looking out! Also, how in Avernus did Champion muster a B tier? Having Champion at the same level as Psi Warrior...does not square with my analysis.
@@brianl9571 Likely similar reason for their placement in this tier list: they’re good, just not as good as BM or EK in all situations.
@@brianl9571 I would assume that it's the same thing as here. It's situationally awesome. It just so happens that the situations that they are awesome in is either "you need to make a character in 30minutes no revisions time starts now" and "newcomers first character to familiarise themselves with core rules of DND that is either a one shot character or intended to be changed for a different character later in the campaign"
There aren't any classes better for those situations.
@brianl9571 Champion's perfectly fine, and on a tier list with 5 tiers that puts them at B. They're not particularly good at anything, but they're also not bad at anything. They're just boring ontop of that.
@@brianl9571 Because while champion ceiling is low, its floor is also high. It's a hard subclass to get wrong, even if the person playing is a 7 year old who has never played before.
~43:10 Three quarters cover is +5, half cover is +2. Applies to not just AC, but DEX saves as well
==EDIT== Feature does seem to be half cover rather than three quarters as well, so it'd be the +2 AC and DEX save
legit didn't know this.
I thought that was the case, glad to see it written here. I was questioning myself hard.
Immediately paused to check this as well XD
Glad someone else was thinking about this. Cover is a pretty underrated buff.
And the difference between giving them cover or just 5 AC is: The enemy could have sharpshooter, which neglects the AC from cover.
19:43 I don't disagree with your ranking for the Champion, but I do disagree with your point here. The Champion DOES have synergy with a basic fighter ability - extra feats. Crusher, Slasher, and Piercer have some great on-critical effects, especially Crusher and Slasher. Seriously, go look them up. They're straight-up S-tier abilities. The Champion has double the chance to crit MINIMUM. Add in Heroic Warrior (10) and Superior Critical (15) and it gets even better. This is where I think the true strength of the Champion lies.
Great Weapons Master even more so - a Bonus Action attack every time you crit is so good on a Champion! Elven Accuracy could be great for a Vex-Dex Champion if your table uses XGE feats
Might be even better on a halfling due to lucky. Yes I agree that the crit effects are great, it's like getting 2 weapon masteries from a single attack that also shares it with the party members. (if I remember correctly)
Great synergy with the vex and topple mastery aswel.
@@SortKaffe I've been thinking about a crit fishing build with this play. Getting Elven Acc. on a Champion and then even going to Valor Bard to get their extra attack magical secrets might be really good (yes ik that crit-fishing builds aren't considered very good but don't yuck my yum XD)
Something I don’t see discussed very much is the fact that Heroic Inspiration can be used to reroll even dice that have already been rerolled. So an Elf Champion with their 18-20 crit range can choose to roll 4 dice when they have advantage bringing them to an almost 50% chance to crit.
"Champion lacks synergy."
Heroic inspiration stacks with the increased crit range. Feats--which the fighter gets more of--can give you effects on crits, additional attacks on crits, etc.
Heroic inspiration also serves as a good backup for Indomitable, but while you have indomitable "charges" left, you can use that as free advantage every round.
You can also do other things, like using a topple weapon to give yourself advantage on attacks... which is even better with increased crit range AND still stacks with heroic inspiration. There are a ton of things you can do with this subclass to really crank up those two abilities.
Throw 2 levels of Barb for reckless attack in there. You delay getting your reckless attack, but you're now getting advantage in almost all cases, a 20% chance to crit, at level 5. Plus danger sense. If you're giving up your extra attack at level 5, you want those crits to count, so two-weapon fighting is actually more viable for a fighter. AC 16 but hey, that's what spells are for right?
@@AndrewThoesen Not to mention Rage on top of that, bonus damage and bonus resistance
Elven accuracy and finess or dex weapons for extra chances of criting. Piercer for extra damage on every piercing critical hit (short swords, daggers, bows etc.)
@@KaupoParmasyou can’t reckless attack with Dex. Reckless attack applies only on strength-made attacks
@@Elite_Tauren_Chieftain ahh I missed that little detail, good point
One synergy the Champion gets - feats that trigger on critical hits, like Slasher, Piercer etc. That's really nice. Still don't disagree with anything you said there.
But you also need to be careful with the Champion's extended critical hit range, to make sure you don't miss which things trigger on rolling a natural 20 on an attack roll (like certain magic items, and Epic Boons), and which features trigger on a "critical hit".
There's another synergy baked into champion itself, at 3rd level you also get to move half your speed when you crit
This banks on crit fishing, which the numbers just say is a bad tactic. Its not bad as an elf woth elven accuracy - but other than that, youre not getting a whole lot from any ceot builds
@@outofideas42elf, elven accuracy, shadow monk and a few lvls of battle master fighter may do the trick? Always advantage fighting in darkness and triple advantage. Assuming improved crit works with monk unarmed attacks
I really like the look of using the various weapon feats and having advantage on basically every attack. Use the Inspiration for the first attack with a Topple weapon and shield master to force 2 saves to stay standing. Then you go nuts with whatever weapon feat you like. Id have put it in A tier personally. Having played the old one and get a crit or two basically every round felt great, and now its just better.
17:21 Keep in mind re the Champion Fighter's Heroic Inspiration: at that level you also have the Indomitable feature which you can use for scary Saving Throws. And by the time you get to the really scary fights against Lichs and other magic users, you may have more than one use of Indomitable available. So until your Indomitable uses are used up, you could just use your Heroic Inspiration on your attacks freely.
Note: I'm not disputing the ranking, it's fair. But if someone wants to go with that subclass, keep this in mind.
Edit: The more I think about it, with the inclusion of Weapon Masteries, a subclass like the Champion now has about the level of versatility of a 2014 Battle Master. BUT, a 2024 Battle Master that is also using Weapon Masteries is boosted up to an even higher level now.
My thought was: the BBEG kn
Psi Warrior: "Ref, I'm TK'ing the huge statue 30feet over the Spell-caster."
@@brianj.841 I don't think you can affect Huge, can you? I thought PW was limited to moving Large objects.
Thank you for defending champion, I've never gone a fighter before but I really want to try a champion fighter as my first fighter under the new rules.
@@Cryodrake That's awesome! You've got great options for combat and role play, so absolutely go for it.
@@Cryodrake Don't feel bad at all. I see all these min/maxers saying Battlemaster is the best, but I played one for several sessions and, even though I'm no dummy, there were just too many options for my taste. Analysis Paralysis can be a problem when the complexity is higher than your preferred playstyle.
For Champion, I probably wouldn't bother saving the inspiration for saving throws, just because Indomitable will be better for resisting those nasty save or suck spells. Once you use Indomitable I might start saving the inspiration.
Maybe, but inspiration regens for champion whereas second wind is more limited.
There's a case for true strike over Booming Blade/GFB. If you are playing an archer, True Strike isn't melee only, and it's not too difficult for a fighter to get 16 int, and with archery fighting style 16 int is as accurate as 20 str with a melee attack!
Nice
Another very cool Battlemaster (if I understand the rules correctly):
Riposte with a Sap weapon.
Sap gives the enemy Disadvantage on their next attack, making it much more likely they’ll miss you and thereby trigger the reaction attack.
AND if you hit them with that reaction attack….they now also have disadvantage on their second attack that turn (if they have any)
actually super cool idea
That rules, I hadn't thought of that
That's gross.
I love it!
I’ll just be my Champion self over here with my Pumpkin Spice Latte.
I’ve watched every session of the Dudes, and I find the “glue” between Kelly and Monty is the obvious chemistry and how they play off each other with their geeky anecdotes and wholesome nerdiness…love it!!
Champions were base class plus whipped cream. Now it’s whipped cream, sprinkles, and a cherry on top.
For me it deserves to be A tier
@@jaroslawdobrzeniecki30 I think especially now with the inspiration mechanic, it has a little more flavor as a "champion of the people" so to speak.
Advantage on Athletics for grapple and prone cheese is nasty.
@@sidecharacter7165 thinking of a grappler champion myself. seems like it could be filthy
@@Thuase I think the Skilled feat gives Expertise at level 4. By level 5 assume +4 from strength, +6 from Expertise. Advantage and +10 on grapple and prone beatdowns.
At the coste of the Magic initiate: druid and a single bonus action Shillelagh, is completely possible to play a full INT Eldritch Knight that takes spells like Hideous laughter, earthen grasp and even slow, fear and hypnotic pattern
Same for Psi Warrior - Shillelah and max int. You can dip 1-3 levels of wizard and war magic. It's crazy good and works well with fay touched, telekinetic etc.
This is a great point. Come to think of it, Shillelagh would pair well with True Strike at level 7 and onwards.
@@arcanefeline even better if you use the old blade cantrips.
But yeah with a Scimitar and a Shillelagh club you can make your 4 attacks all using INT
@@BigWeightRevis that assuming two attacks per Attack action? does that go: Attack 1 club, Attack 2 Truestrike Scimitar, Nick Attack Club, bonus action club? Sorry still wrapping my head around the nick property.
@@penabler exactly, true strike with a Scimitar to activate Nick, free attack with a light Club, Extra attack with the said club and BA attack again with the club.
All of them use INT provided you cast shillelagh on turn 1
One thing I'd love to see is comparing the new rank against the 2014 rank and a brief discussion of what you think are the key changes that affected the shift
After you get through all of the 2024 sub classes, it would be interesting to re-rank the 2014 subclasses with 2024 rules, including weapon mastery
Even without XGE cantrips, I'd still say S thanks to one indirect buff: buying spell scrolls in base adventuring gear. This let's them buy 1st level spells they either don't have prepared or back ups of defensive spells should they not want to use a higher spell slot.
And you have features that can help with the spell check.
Chill Touch is also not that bad choice for replacing one of your attacks with, it does 2d10 by the time you get war magic, which is already probably about as much as you would do with a single attack, and gets way better at level 11 when it goes to 3d10.
Don't forget you can just craft spell scrolls too
@kelmirosue3251 @kelmirosue3251 True, but that assumes you have the spell prepared. Additionally, there are times many times when using downtime isn't an option. For example: You have the shield spell prepared and just spent your downtime making Shield spell scrolls. After downtime, you discover that your next adventure would benefit from having a niche spell like Jump or Witch Bolt. Since it is niche, you'd likely not have it prepared, thus can't even make the scroll. However, you can now just buy it for 50 gp each. Additionally, if your INT is
@@bigggamer4399 fair, just wanted to say it is an option tho
43:12 unless they changed the rules, 3/4 cover actually give you +5 to AC AND Dex saves.
This is true, but the feature actually gives 1/2 cover.
The music in the beginning made it hard to hear. Love you the class overview followed by tier rankings. Now the long wait for the warlock begins 😢😅 thank you for the content!
EK 2nd level spell: Blur. Sure it takes concentration but every attack against you is at disadvantage. Plus you can still cast mirror image too.
Champion Fighter is my absolute favorite Fighter subclass! I love to play it because it allows me to focus on the roleplay element of the game while my character will be able to do what he have to do (hit hard! :D )
Champion should be A and Psi Warrior a B imo. New champion is very underrated with the interplay between indomitable and inspiration, and the new way feats work and weapon masteries with the expanded crit range.
Finally, tier rankings. Love it
These are how I found your channel when I was first getting into DND. Its amazing to see how far everything has come.
one thing not mentioned, champion fighter can reroll hit dice on level up, since every roll they have out of combat essentially has a reroll
The Champion fighter pairs well with multi-classing plus CON saves, heavy armor, all weapons, improved CRITS, etc.
The Champion is the type of warrior we see in movies and TV,
the one who always gets back up, lands critical hits to take down enemies, and decks/kicks their opponent while also swinging their weapon.
Also, for a combination of two Fighting Styles, Throwing Weapon Fighting works in synergy with Archery (Darts) and Two Weapon Fighting.
Glad they brought back the intro music, now to bring back the sword slice transitions.
Dudes! Thanks for starting the new tier rankings. I appreciate the change to onscreen lists. The highlight feature makes it easier to see in front of the background image bleeding through like a watermark.
the removing the spell restriction on the eldritch knight was the hugest boost to their power, im even more excited to play my favorite class now
The second biggest boost was getting bladesingers extra attack. Of course getting weapon masteries hasn't hurt it either.
At level 10 you can do some funny things with the eldritch strike and war magic features. Slap the enemy with your weapon of choice and use the push weapon mastery via the tactical master feature. Then use your extra attack to cast lightning lure on them to pull them back in (they get disadvantage on the save via eldritch strike) dealing 2d8 lightning. Then action surge and pummel them some more. "GET OVER HERE!"
@@jack.h99 Sounds like lots of fun. 😁
@@jack.h99 that will be extra fun with a bit of spike growth from a friend.
I think the most pleasantly suprising thing about the new phb is that from species to classes to subclasses it really does seem like even though there are certainly options that are better than others that there are none that I can look at and immediately go "yeah I wouldn't make a character that uses this", everything is at least interesting enough to make me think about character ideas centering around that option, I want to play a goliath now, I want to play a beastmaster now, I want to play an assassin rogue now, and on top of that I still want to play a sorcerer, a vengeance paladin, and a human. All the options seem fun!
Great Job on the PowerPoint Visuals Monty! Would love to see them continue in future videos.
43:23 3/4 cover actually gives +5 to your AC and Dexterity saving throws. +2 is given by 1/2 cover. So it’s much better than what you had said.
Another thing to note as well is that some abilities ignore cover, so these bonuses could be nullified
The Champion has good synergy with Elven Accuracy, at least for Dex builds. By level 15 you've got ~39% chance of critting when you have advantage.
Let's see if the tables have changed in the tier ranking so excited
Oversight: Spirit Shroud is a Tasha's Spell not a Xanathar's Spell - 34:16
Likewise, the melee cantrips are not to be found in Xanathar's. They were originally published in the SCAG, and reprinted with modifications in Tasha's.
Built a Battle Master the other day just to kinda see what we were working with. There is a lot going on now between all the various ways you can use the Fighter's base features, weapon mastery and combat maneuvers. Despite the damage nerf to sharpshooter, I still think a ranged Battle Master has a lot of power potential since many maneuvers can be used at range. Commander's Strike in particular (especially combined w/Distracting Strike) is a great way to help your rogue get off a second sneak attack each round...especially once you get Relentless @ level 15.
Excited to see we are back to Subclass ranking videos. Love it. 👊 Keep up the great content guys!
With every class feature book that comes out, there are going to be new wizard spells, and eldritch knight is going to continue grow in options. What excites me the most about the subclass is just that mono-school of spell casting thought experiments. What does an EK look like with all necromancy, all Illusion, or all transmutation spells. Even if suboptimal in combat, it seems like it will always be fun to play.
Champiom combo protection agaisnst saving throws effects . Indomable + defy deaf . Combos for skills second wind + heroic inspiration
Awesome to see your guide of the new content! Eldritch Knight is soooooo cool now!!!
Psi-Warrior is an A and a big part of that is the feature that you hardly mentioned. Its level 10 feature combined with indomitable makes it an absolute beast at saving throws and removing effects on itself.
Pick up intelligence based Shillelagh (from magic initiate) and play as a jedi
Man idk bout that Champion review, I’ve been surprisingly stoked about this subclass since the overhaul. Me personally, I’ve got a Goliath gladiator champion fighter planned, with the unarmed and thrown weapon fighting styles. Toss in tavern brawler, savage attacker, and eventually tough and you got an absolute unit
25:48 with the way shillelagh, weapon masteries, and magic initiate are worded (shillelagh does not specify which spellcasting ability you use, only saying you use the spellcasting ability used to cast it; weapon masteries also do not specify the ability used to make saves, only mentioning the ability used to make attack/damage rolls; and magic initiate lets you choose whichever spellcasting ability you please to cast the spells gained via it), you can absolutely use a quarterstaff and use shillelagh to make your attack rolls and weapon masteries using INT (and now it scales as well!), maintain synergy with polearm master, and use attack roll spells. Certain attack roll cantrips also come baked in with battlefield control or utility like thorn whip, mind sliver, or ray of frost, certain spells like tasha's hideous laughter also work, and since a fighter isn't going to be casting higher level spells witch bolt can also make up a lot of damage (and by level 5, you will have a d10 one handed weapon, tactical master will allow for more masteries, etc).
To demo an int based eldritch knight, imagine a level 10 eldritch knight completely shutting down enemies by using mind sliver, eldritch strike, then hideous laughter or cause fear, and because of their high spell save DC, mind sliver, and associated disadvantage take an enemy out reliably, and then even loop the situation with eldritch strike and mind sliver if they wish to do so. This just spirals more and more out of control as Eldritch knights gain more spells, with not that much worse of a performance at lower levels.
This trick is probably significantly more useful on a valor bard, but a straight int eldritch knight fighter is very good.
I've been thinking about an int based fighter and this is a great approach.
Additionally, once you reach level 7 you can swap your fighting style to take two weapon Fighting.
Now you can use shillelagh (with a club) in one hand and then a different light weapon that has the Nick property (e.g. dagger).
The club will use your int from shillelagh and you can cast true strike as a cantrip as part of your attack action. This then opens up a third (and possibly fourth with dual wielding) attack with your boosted club.
@@ReallyRobEgan I've been looking for a way to make two weapon fighting work and this is it, although I don't think 4 attacks can quite work. If you can make 2 attacks with the club and make the third from a light hammer and apply true strike to that (which works), there's your three attacks, but the fourth attack will have to be made using the str modifier as you can't cast shillelagh on 2 weapons at once or cast true strike twice, or attack thrice with a club.
Now, were we to compare quarterstaff and two weapons, here are the pros
Pros of using a quarterstaff:
1. You can take dueling instead of two weapon fighting and gain +2 to rolls, or use protection for utility, or take great weapon fighting (rerolling 1 and 2 to 3 is not great, but with polearm master and it working on true strike/other cantrips like GFB or BB's on hit roll, we can expect a 1.8 average damage increase if we do 1 attack, 1 cantrip, 1 bonus action attack from polearm master. Nothing stellar, but it's an option) for nice variety. I'd probably go with duelling.
2. You can take polearm master and do a d4+ability mod of damage using bonus action anyways
3. You have the topple mastery, generally better than slow on the club.
Pros of 2 weapons:
1. We retain our bonus action, very important if we took a feat to get hunter's mark or hex or compelled duel via fey touched, or are using witch bolt to do sustained single target damage, as nick doesn't use bonus actions, which we can do as
2. We have a free feat as polearm master isn't required here, which can help gain us more spells and features (war caster, both fey touched and shadow touched, etc). or even just taking dual wielder feat and using a scimitar/shortsword offhand instead of a light hammer, increasing AC and average damage by 1.
Honestly while I can see this being up to preference, two weapon fighting also being viable and probably just better for damage is great!
@@theformation3781 Quarterstaff can be used one handed, so I'd probably take that over a club, from what I said earlier.
In the 5.24 rules the dual wielder feat doesn't give a +1 ac, but it lets you make an approval ba attack that is in addition to what you would make with the Nick property. On turn 1 you would use your BA setting up shillelagh but then after that you would get 4 attacks.
I would say that before you can start casting cantrips at level 7 then you should stick to a different fighting style than two weapon fighting.
On round one cast shillelagh and then witch bolt. On subsequent rounds you can attack with your action and do damage from witch bolt with your BA.
Whatever the case, I'm glad that an int based fighter is viable now.
43:10 Its half cover not 3/4 cover, and it provides a +2 to AC and Dexterity saving throws, but I agree they could have written that in the feature itself, I guess the point is that guarded mind doesn't stack with cover, but since its a 15th level feature, I don't see why it shouldn't
I am so pumped to play a 12 War Cleric/8 Eldritch Knight with a big melee weapon.
Loving the new display for class features!
This is so helpful! We're going to start a new campaign soon using the 2024 classes. Looking forward to more!
Would you make a part 2 of this video discussing how other fighter subclasses like the echo knight, samurai, rune knight etc would work with the new 2024 base fighter class??
15:55 thank you for correcting that there! I’ve seen so many ppl getting it wrong and saying its only d20 rolls
The core/ vanilla subclasses all needed more. Like champion could have gotten an extra action surge, a guaranteed crit on first action surge attack, better second wind and some more bloodied buffs
Digging the new format! I like the build suggestions for newbies
Love these subclass ranking videos, could watch you 2 arguing about that for hours, keep it up !
For the champion fighter - would the elven accuracy feat + dual weilder+slasher/piercer actually make it A tier? You'd be critting NON-stop.
Yes! But you kind of want to multiclass to make the most of those Crits
@@SortKaffe what would you do with it? I would think you want to rush to level 15 as fast as possible?
@@SortKaffeyou cant really do with it anything really. Paladin is dead on smite end
No, crit fishing was and still is a fool’s errand. You’re always better off finding ways to increase the average damage of your normal attacks, which basically any of these other subclasses can do better.
Elven accuracy doesn’t exist in the new rules, so we shouldn’t assume they’re talking it into account.
Hi boys! Just to clarify - you mentioned Booming Blade and Spirit Shroud when talking about the Eldritch Knight. Those spells are actually from Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything, not Xanathar's
And technically, Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade (along with Lightning Lure and Sword Burst) came out first in Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide
The summary on what each BM maneuver does is super useful. Playing a 7th lvl 2024 BM conversion, and at my age, 58, I tend to get menu lock choosing manuevers...
A champion with the Alert origin feat has advantage on initiative, and can then swap their initiative with another party member. Somewhat helpful for when your blaster ally or the cleric roll low initiative and are needed asap. Nothing crazy but I thought it worth mentioning
The free heroic inspiration is probably really good for a Champion trying to crit fish. Also, you get that after Indomitable, so you can probably freely use it until you've burned Indomitable on a save or suck spell.
I can't tell you how much I love these ranking videos and I'm so glad you're doing 2024 PHB versions
the Goliaths Cloud giants Jaunt ability is a way to acquire misty step without taking the spell and thus giving you and extra option. Not to mention since it isnt a spell you can use it and cast a leveled spell on the same turn. And the amount of uses you get with it scales with your proficiency....honestly goliaths seem really good for fighters this edition
You are right about Champion but there IS Synergy. Advantage every turn combos with improved crit.
I don't think champion is a good choice for most players but I think it absolutely has it's place in multiclassing. Smite based paladin grabbing Action Surge may indeed want improved crit. Likely other classes do too.
My education was in research and statistics, and my hunch was rerolling damage is super undervalued by the community because it decreases variance and shifts the results around and above the average, these benefits arent as easily understood as "increasing your average dmg by X" ... I looked at a Greataxe with Great Weapon Fighting(2014 rules. New version isn't as good) and Savage attacker over thousands of simulated rolls and let me tell you, the elimination of bad damage rolls feels great on a roll by roll basis in a way whiteboard avg dmg increase doesnt communicate.... if you have a Champion with heroic inspiration every round on top, you're really getting somewhere with your dmg rolls because essentially anything under avg dmg becomes a mathematical outlier leaving a huge % of your rolls doing great chunks of damage
I've always disliked the discourse about rerolling damage being sub-optimal. Sure, statistically it's not as good but rolling snake eyes on a greatsword and being like "actually no" feel so good at the table.
Imo rerolling gets a lot of hate just because it's fiddly and takes time.
Personally I'd totally use it, but only in person, on a VTT it's horrific
@@chrism6315 on the other hand, another chance to roll the expensive clicky clacky rolly things everyone buys lol
champion plus luck feet plus halfling would be freaking sweet. especially if you sprinkled in rogue sneak attack !
I still feel that Great Weapon Fighting is almost useless for any weapon besides greatsword and maul, the 2d6 weapons.
Changing a 1 or 2 for a 3 is a marginal improvement for a greataxe or any of the polearm weapons or versatile weapons with 2 hands.
But replacing a 1+1 on a greatsword for a 3+3 on 2d6 does feel great.
One other change to the champion fighter; remarkable athlete now has a new bullet point that allows you to move half your speed whenever you land a critical hit
My favorite Psi Warrior from the past edition was as a battlefield medic. He took the healer feat, he was relocating allies out of danger or pulling them close to bandage them up, he was expending dice to lower allies concentration saves a few times, he lifted an ally into a tree out of reach when we got ambushed at one point, he did the chasm crossing thing, etc. etc. I'm glad they included it as an option because it is so flexible.
Champion fighter is the best using the crusher, piercer, and slasher feats since they have the largest crit range. They are the best sword and board getting both a damage increase and protection. Additionally they can maximize weapon damage: Thrown + two weapon fighting, thrown + dueling, or two weapon fighting + dueling if your dm is ok with weapon juggling.
I also argue they are one of the best tank builds between their passive healing, protection, and the ability to lock people's movement between topple slow push
Monty: "You know who those are!" Stares at Kelly
Kelly: Awkwardly raising his hand
So, other than Champion not "synergizing", I don't see why it necessarily deserves a B. The big contributing factor for the B tier is that it "works with the right build"... but the Champion works pretty much with *every* Fighter build. It's less varied, but it's also far more straightforward and less prone to making the "wrong" choice. Honestly, I think the Champion deserves an A, because it will always work. It may not be flashy, but it is certainly *dependable*. It's your "work horse" sub-class: It might not be pretty, but it will always get the job done. I'd probably not give it a high A, but a low A is very fitting for Champion.
As for the Battle Master vs Eldritch Knight "debate", the Dudes only give the Eldritch Knight the leg up over the Battle Master *if* they get access to Zanathar's, which feels a bit like DM decision and almost like the definition of "works with the right build" (though in this case DM ruling instead of build). Meanwhile, the Battle Master doesn't need that kind of special ruling or not. Therefore, I'd say for consistency, the Battle Master is above the Eldritch Knight.
Psi Warrior's a bit of a rough one, seeing as how it's a bit more MAD than the others. It does have some interesting features, though. High B or low A.
Overall, the Fighter Tier rankings I'd see being:
S Rank: Battle Master > Eldritch Knight
A: Rank: Champion = Psi Warrior
Tier ranks let's go!!!
I think you're underestimating the fusion of increased crit range plus infinite rerolls, this means that the Champion now has the chance to basically crit every other turn give or take, amd also almost never miss their attacks, so a character that wants to crit a lot, or just not miss their one big hit the champion is a very good accuracy boost.
I think the free Heroic Inspiration once a turn is maybe undervalued here. I know previously many folks, the Dudes included, very highly valued Lucky, which I believe did let you impose disadvantage, but if you oresented a feature to someone a couple years ago saying: you get a luck point to use on any roll, infinite amount, but once a turn, I think people would have flipped. Maybe just me. Yes it does come at level 10 but thats still incredibly useful.
Love your guy's content!
Extended Crit range has synergy with the slasher/crusher/piercer crit features.
Those crit effects bypass legendary resistance.
Heroic Inspiration comes back at the beginning of the champions turn. Can be used with Attacks until indomitable is used up.
Heroic inspiration can also be used with the Survivor feature. Reroll a death save die you already have advantage on for an additional chance to roll an 18-20 on the death save while downed. 38.5% chance to critically succeed every turn. Almost a 77% chance to critically save over 3 turns if not failing saves before you stabalize. 91% chance to critically succeed after 5 turns, maximum amount of turns before a death or stabilization has to occur.
also basically a 99% chance to stabilize if nothing is forcing death saves on you.
Advantage on all initiative rolls is pretty badass.
Advantage on all strength Athletics checks is badass.
Additional movement without attacks of opportunity for every crit is nice and weirdly enough seems to be able to happen multiple times on your turn, or on another creatures turn from a reaction attack.
Did you guy's forget the extra mobility on crits of the champion's remarkable athlete or did i just miss it? Because i think its a significant boost and it scales well with the rest of their abilities.
Yeah they did.
@@abel4542 oh good
A necromancer eldritch knight is actually a really cool concept, given the lack of death domain cleric in the 2024 PBH
Amazing video, as always! Keep these up
Best fix for champion fighter is just expand the crit range earlier and more. 18-20 at level 3, 17-20 at level 10 (or level 7), 16-20 level 15 (or level 13), 15-20 level 20 (or level 18)
Best meaning simple and powerful enough to boost it up to a intriguing option
You should do a segment at these end of these videos, or this could be its own video after all the classes, talking about how your previous rankings for the non-2024 subclasses change in the context of the 2024 rules.
The thing that will make the Eldritch Knight overtake the Battlemaster (if you don't think it already is) will be the proliferatin of new spells that will come out versus the tiny number of new manoeuvres that will appear.
Champion has the best synergy with Magic Weapons that do extra damage like Flame Tongue.
By the time you get Superior Critical, you have to have at least some Magic Weapons.
My character: eldritch knight with sage background for magic initiate wizard. Two additional cantrips and an additional level one spell. Works for local churches as a security guard and a custodian in exchange for access to their high level libraries where he secretly studies his passion: magic. He's basically will hunting.
Has anyone else mentioned that True Strike, which Monty mistakenly says is a melee attack, can also be applied to ranged weapons? This would allow you to use a crossbow as a 16 STR/16 INT character at low levels and starting at level 6 just add a d6 damage on any attack you felt you could still land with INT vs STR.
Excellent ranking !
I think you’re undervaluing everything the champion is bringing to the table in terms of “switch hitting.” If we’re talking about average damage per round, each time the fighter goes without hitting they massively bring down their average contribution to a fight. Between built-in rerolls to hit and an extra fighting style where they can snag archery for that +2, Champions are the only subclass that can forego pumping dex with their ASIs and still be able to reliably hit with great weapon fighter longbow attacks.
You can use your heroic inspiration to reroll your hitpoints when you level up.
Champion with 2 level barbarian dip... always on advantage with 18-20 crit range. Very nice
Thanks dudes! ❤
40:21 the psi warrior "transport" wording is so it specifically isn't movement so you don't proc opportunity attacks
It is movement, it doesnt use the target creatures actions or movement though. Thats why it doesn’t proc opportunity attacks.
I will forever love these videos. Also can yall try a fade in for your intro music I love that you condensed it, but its surprsing every time. Idk. It’s the small things.
Oh my fucking God, y'all finally showed the psi warrior some love! All of your points I have been shouting to the rooftops for years!
I think the Champion is probably the only character option that would make it worthwhile to reroll damage. But only if you hit on all your attacks, though then you don't have it on saving throws.
One thing to note is that staffs are also considered quarterstaffs, and Shillelagh works on them, and magic initiate also allows you to choose the mental stat you want to use, so you actually can bond with a staff as it's also considered a weapon.
This means you can use a staff as a weapon that can use intelligence (so full INT eldritch knight is possible) and an arcane focus for you wizard spells, it can't be taken from you, you can call it to your hands with a bonus action no matter the distance as long as it's in the same plane of existence (leaving an emergency staff at home or another safe location in case yours is destroyed could be useful), the bond can't even be broken by anyone other than you, AND it has topple to get advantage on spells with melee attack rolls (or even ranged ones if you take spell sniper to remove the disadvantage), AND it can benefit from dueling and polearm master.
And depending on DM's interpretation (though it's definitely not RAI, and depending on the way you read may not be RAW either), Shillelagh could replace the damage of the bonus attack from polearm master and make it basically an extra attack but without topple. However, most DM's will probably not allow this so don't count on it
I had to rebuild a scofflaw scout for the 2024 rules. Now they're a champion assassin, because the advantage on initiative and crit range synergizes super well.
I really think Champion's Remarkable Athlete could have dropped the advantage on initiative to instead allow the fighter when they critically hit with a weapon or unarmed strike to recover a use of Action Surge or their next use of Action Surge this turn doesn't Expend a use of the ability. I don't even think it would even be that strong early game with a 10% chance each attack (not accounting for advantage).
Insanely, the Fey-touched feat lets you pick ANY divination spell and you gain misty step too. No list restrictions. Hunter's mark is divination, and fighter's have proficiency in Con saves. You can cast one of them free, and than use spell slots, so extra useful on an EK.
Fighters are still better Rangers than the Ranger. Want to play BM hunter, dip one level warlock, take pact of the chain, and have a shiny amazing sphinx.
Champion should always use their inspiration for hits because when that nasty liches 'turn' comes round you have a fresh one to roll for the saving throw. :o)
As for the Champion, saving the Heroic inspiration for a saving throw is nice option if you have already used indomitable. Having a paladin nearby (or being a Paladin with 3 levels of champion) just makes you laugh at "hard' saves. If you haven't used indomitable yet, then go for it for attacks, or a weak damage roll. Last round of a fight, save it so you have inspiration to use for a skill through the day. With the right weapon property though, use Heroic advantage on your first Vex weapon, hit, then you get advantage on that hit, and the next...
Oh ive been waiting for this. Cant wait
I always loved you tier rankings. :D
YES! We back! We’re so back!!