The resistance feature makes it hard to choose the "wrong" terrain type for land druids. To your example, if you grabbed Arid and get attacked by a red dragon, you can't fireball it. You do, however, have fire resistance. Same thing happens with the other terrain types. If your spells don't work because you run into something that embodies that damage type, you get to benefit from the resistance, which is nice.
They need to make a Druid subclass based off all the weird and freaky stuff nature does like those exploding seeds, cloning plant bodies or sapping vines.
Re Land being B- I don't know, it's two extra castings of a level 3 spell at 6th level. That is... A lot! And extra 4th and extra 3rd at 7th, then 4 level 4 spells at level 8 instead of 2... That is so much extra spell casting, I feel this is being under rated a lot! It's an A for me in any case.
The versatility of druids is just unmatched! Control, damage, healing, infiltration, espionage, all in a prepared caster so you can just pick which role you need to fill per long rest. Amazing class
I think the fact that Land druids get 4-11 spells at any spell slot below 6th once per day is insane and underrated. At level 7 you get 5 spells back including 4th leveled spells effectivally doubleing your high level spells (which kind of mean unlimited fireballs). That's as good if not better than many capstones. I dont know how Treemonk does his average damage per round (based on a full day with ~4) encounters but I think it should effectivly double most other druids damage at all levels of play beyond levels 1-5. Also all druids get polymorph and Wizards never eratta'd Pollymorph to not give 157 temporary hitpoints that stay if you lose concentration early (or choose to drop it instantly) its like if they made a 9th level upgraded heal spell and let most classes get it at 4th level. land doing that twice at lvl 7 is broken.
I think y’all really missed the fact you still have to use the beast’s attack roll which don’t scale at all, so you do still have to keep up the treadmill of getting better wild shape forms if you actually want to hit to do damage
"You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them." Still have to use the subpar attack bonuses of the beast form. This will most likely become a problem at higher levels yet again.
29 วันที่ผ่านมา +8
Bit underrated thing about land druids - they get to use one spell without spellslot, being very useful if you need to cast bonus action spell at the same turn aswell. So chuck that extra fireball or put up stone wall to protect allies, and help them out with healing word at the same turn! Also being able to cast 3 fireballs at level 5 is nothing to scoff at imo. 5 fireballs at level 6... damn
That point about the Land druid being not great e.g. if you pick arid and a Red Dragon attacks, that's where the lvl 10 feature WOULD be useful as you would have resistance to Fire. So think of it as a fallback resistance in case you run into something you can't handle so well with your spell pick, it's actually pretty handy.
Oh, and as a Moon druid if you want to be good at social situations just take 3 levels in Fey Wanderer Ranger for Otherworldly Glamour. Boom, all-round character 😂. Although personally I'd take a 2 levels of Rogue instead for Expertise in stealth and Cunning Action. Best infiltrator ever!
Land druid is woefully underrated. It vastly improves the Druids spell list, and this is a caster class. If you must upgrade a Land druid, just allow them to change their Land affiliation at the start of a round, and choose any of the resistances they want per short rest. Or boost the Natures Recovery to be a free casting of their highest level spell known..which becomes a free 6, 7, 8, or 9th level spell eventually.
IMO, *Land Druid* is the *S tier* subclass. The level 6 feature, *Natural Recovery,* not only allows you to cast more spells per day than any other spellcaster, but it also lets you cast two big spells on your first turn in the major fight of the day _(as you can cast one of your _*_Circle Spells_*_ "without expending a spell slot")._ At level 7, you can cast the much-improved *Grasping Vine* as a _Bonus Action_ to deal _4d8 Bludgeoning damage, Grapple,_ and _pull_ an enemy 30 feet. This can line up multiple foes for casting *Fireball* as an _Action._ Against a *Red Dragon,* adapt by following up with a free *Blight* instead of *Fireball* _(showing that _*_Arid Land_*_ is __-not-__ versatile in combat)._ By level 9, you can default to *Polar Land* for even more flexibility. For example, use *Grasping Vine* as setup for a free *Cone of Cold* or *Ice Storm* - or combine one of the *Circle Spells* requiring *Concentration* _(Fog Cloud, Hold Person, or Sleet Storm)_ with the buffed *Healing Word.*
💯 the dudes seem to think Wildshape is the primary feature of of the Druid. It is not. Spell casting is the primary feature, and the Land Druid does that better and more often, with more versatility, and with more higher level spells than any other Druid.
I think B is fair. As they define it, B tier can be S tier with the right player in the right campaign. I think that the new Land Druid can ABSOLUTELY be S tier with a clever player in a campaign where you have time to plan your adventuring days. But is it crazy powerful by default? Not necessarily. It's also never bad. Even in the hands of an inexperienced player in a campaign where you don't ever know what you're going to be doing on any given adventuring day, this class will still be GOOD. Hence, B tier. On the other hand, I can't imagine Moon Druid deserving an S tier if the Land Druid gets B tier. The Moon Druid excels at a certain play style. That play style is not going to speak to everyone.
@jamesdosdall8391 *Moon Druid* is the _definition_ of *B tier,* as it _"may be S-tier in certain campaigns",_ specifically *low-level* campaigns. By level 14, *Moon Druids* can still only turn into a *CR 4 Beast* with a meager *+2 Proficiency Bonus,* so they can _bearily_ hit anything 🐻
I agree with the reasoning but I can say the same thing with the Champion Fighter Subclass with the right build (and feats). You already have knowledge of how to use a great combination of spells with the right "Land" and the base spells of the Druid. *Many players don't think this far* (i.e spells and feats combos), so this subclass could in fact be a S-tier with a good/imaginative/experienced player but will probably feel more like a C-tier with many others players. It's not a trap o course, far from it, but it's not a guaranteed powerful subclass. Even if you get "Potent Spellcasting", Circle of the Land is hard to use (like any hard spellcasting class in fact). On the contrary, Circle of the Moon is easy to use (on the surface nonetheless) with "Primal Strike", two or three good beast forms, you wildshape in the melee + some spells is necessary, you are the thing you want and imagine to be in the encounter ; nobody cannot complain about what you do (unless troll).
@@SortKaffe Eh...the one CR 4 2024 beast we have, the elephant, may technically only have a +2 PB, but it also has Str 22, so it has a +8 to hit. A Fighter at the same level has +10. That's meaningfully better on the Fighter's end, but the Druid does more damage per attack by a fair bit if buffed. The Fighter at that level has a 60% accuracy or so, and Treantmonk's optimized fighter build at that level has a DPR of around 54. The Elephant, meanwhile, has only a 50% chance to hit, sure, but does 2d8+2d6+6 and then another 1d8+2d10 once per turn. That's not gonna quite equal the Fighter's offense, but it's enough accuracy and damage that it's viable and useful. If they teleport to secure advantage (viable most turns at 14th level) they do a DPR of around 44. A third attack, however, ups that a lot if there is indeed a beast with a third attack...and I suspect there will be (with a third attack, I think that probably exceeds the Fighter's DPR, though it depends on details). And, if they have advantage from something other than a teleport they can also spend a Bonus Action on Wild Shape itself for 42 Temp HP, while the Fighter's equivalent Second Wind heals only 19.5, and can be used less often. So they're significantly more durable. To say nothing of their utility...the Fighter has better saves and Weapon Masteries, don't get me wrong, but the fact that the Druid has some advantages over them is evidence they're pretty solid. We really do need a good look at the actual beast stats, but while the Moon Druid's accuracy is a bit low, it's not low enough to be a real problem most of the time. And that's all at level 14, which is a bad level in regards to accuracy for the Druid, comparatively (13th and 14th are after everyone else gets to +5, but before the Druid gets to CR 5 Beasts), if admittedly also a level when they get a damage bump...they'd look a lot worse at 13th level very specifically, I admit.
29 วันที่ผ่านมา +5
I really think that as land druid, you can never go wrong with having arid spells ready for fireball, having that very useful fire resistance and just preparing bunch of cold spells (storm, cone of cold and so on). If you look at arid spellist, only real fire damage there is actually fireball, other spells have other uses or different damage types (or are unimportant in big picture as burning hands for example). It actually makes you ready for most threats if you dont know what you are up against. Only when you go for specific adventure, you need to tweak that, and on higher levels I would reckon that having specific resistance can be more useful than those new spells (esp. since you can share that resist), and you just prepare opposing spell damage types. Temperate land has also very useful niche, and that is mobility - misty step, tree stride, freedom of movement, great if you really need to get moving, with only lightning bolt being tied to specific damage type. With new sleep I would even argue that its the best generally useful spellist, and unique way to get misty step, but I dislike the lightning resist here. And getting fey touched is better way to obtain misty step anyway. As for tropical - again, only poison damage there is stinking cloud. Other spells have different uses or different damage type. And they are ALL very useful against any enemy, you can never go wrong with polymorph and web. So I would not be too fixated on the damage types, as most of the added spells DO NOT have rely on that specific damage type, instead there is great variety and you can always prepare your default spells to compensate what is missing. So yeah, little bit underselling the land druid here imo =)
I feel you are underselling the Land Druid way too much that you are ignoring the vast potential it has. The versatility of the 4 different spell lists aside, the features make the Land Druid the best spellcaster from the other Druids. Natural Recovery not only allows them to cast one of their Circle Spells for free a day, they basically have an Arcane Recovery feature to regain their spell slots on a Short Rest. That's insane! Even if you happen to pick a "bad" land spell list, you still have all these other Druid spells alongside the prepared spell list from the Circle. And you thus have more spell resources for the day, which makes the Land Druid far more valuable as a spellcaster. And being a spellcaster means that you will be doing plenty of damage in general because that's just how spellcasters are. And thanks to Nature's Ward, even if you are fighting a Red Dragon while having Arid spell list, while Fireball isn't gonna do much, but neither will the Red Dragon's fire attacks thanks to Fire Resistance. Nature's Sanctuary will give that resistance to your allies, and as a bonus, provide half-cover. Making the dragon's bite-claw attack be harder to land, as well as making their fire attacks not hit as hard will provide far more survivability for the team. The Land Druid's sheer versatility as being the best spellcaster in the Druid subclasses and deserves to be in the A-tier at minimum. I'd honestly argue that it belongs in the S-tier, but still, it does not belong at the B-tier.
100% agree with this synopsis! You don't have to be the guy doing the big thing to the enemy all of the time. Sometimes it's better to help your friends succeed where you can't!
Just don't forget, B tier isn't bad and means its S tier in the right setting/hands. I would agree that they did forget or rather glazed over the additional features of the regained spells portion. I'd still give it a A but without a doubt it will never be a bad subclass, in any setting.
When they said that it wasnt that great like the resistance to fire coming with all the fire spells, i mean if you are going against fire users you can get the resistance, and use you normal druid spells to get cold dmg or diffefent elemental dmgs you dont have to use fire, i get their point, but they might have been a bit to harsh
@@sebastianrojo8952 Yes, they were. To the point they were using the Sea Druid spell list and going all, "Oh, they have 2 different elements on their expanded spell list, so if the enemy resists one, they don't resist the other." They're pretending like the Druid has no other spells but the expanded spell list.
TLDR: Land druids are awesome!! I'm currently playing as a Land Druid, starting from level 3, currently at level 11. You truly are the most Spellcaster-y spellcaster in the game. If you like casting spells, this is even better than a wizard. You get nature's recovery to give you not only spell slots back (like the wizard can), but also a free casting of one of your most powerful spells. Because you get access to spells like Web, Fireball, Misty Step, etc, you get to feel like a wizard while also being a powerhouse healer (using the new healer feat with Aura of Vitality is insane). In my game we also have a wizard in the party, and we've had a lot of fun roll play saying that I am actually a better wizard than the wizard. The versatility is insane!! Being able to go from blaster to controller to utility is just great. And more importantly than that, it's tremendously fun to do so. We have gone through days far far easier than we should have because at level 10 I effectively had 3 5th level slots (1 standard, 1 free, 1 from natural recovery), so I could Cone of Cold the minions in 2 separate fights AND could then heal the party with Mass Cure Wounds (again, with the Healer feat this is even better!!) between the fights. And then after that, oh yeah I have all my other spell slots and Wild Shape for utility purposes. If you are fighting a Red Dragon, you WANT to take the Arid circle that day. Sure your Circle spells might be less good, but they are not your only spells!! And you get resistance to the dragons Fire breath (combine it with Absorb Elements and watch your DM cry!!) This, for me, is the definition of an A tier subclass. It's versatile, fun, you can occupy multiple rolls in the party and help them shine with Utility and support while also laying the smack down if you want to. This is a FANTASTIC subclass and would thoroughly recommend playing this to EVERYONE.
@Jin_1814 you make a very good point. Both me and the dm forgot this at the time though, so I got to feel like a badass. While ordinarily, I stick quite heavily to the rules, Sometimes forgetting the rules leads to awesome memorable moments.
Honestly i think you gave Land an underrating. Each list gives you spells that are universally helpful, at least a few. And you gain back spell slots. Combining Web with the Land’s Aid feature for example. It makes a great build with room for roleplaying! A little more weight to that, too?
Circle of the sea has a very nice synergy with spike growth. You cast spike growth with your action and then use your bonus action to push the enemy into it. On subsequent rounds you can use thorn whip and wrath of the sea to push and pull the enemy in the spikes. Potentially HUGE damage right at level 3.
I'm not going to say that your assessment was wrong, but I will say that the Land Druid is my favorite! I think the Land Druid really speaks to a particular type of player (including myself) who wants to play a "Batman" sort of character who can have a solution to any problem if you have the time to prep and plan. The Druid's ability to change its spells on a long rest naturally incline the Druid towards this sort of playstyle, and the Land Druid is the best option for this playstyle. Not every Druid is going to want that, but the Land Druid is the quintessential Druid because it triples down on what Druids are naturally good at: versatility. A B tier subclass is supposed to be able to push into A or S tier with the right playstyle in the right campaign. Because my party loves to plan things out meticulously and I as a player love to have the versatility to change my party role on a dime, this is the S tier class for me!
Their assessment is wrong, they only play Moon Druids, they don't take the versatility or support of the other subclasses into account. The idea that "you could pick the wrong land" is countered by the same argument for the Moon Druid "you could not have seen the beast you need to turn into"
I think Land Druid is strongly undervalued there to be honest. Like any spellcaster it very strong on high levels, but Land just shines in middle levels. Main point of Natural Recovery isn't even first part (that great), but second. It just that good have additional cast of your max spellslot spell for 6-10 levels. Third fireball on 6 level? Sure. Second polymorph for 7 level? Of course. And Land aid isn't so great, but from 5 level it's essentially 2th level spell (Wither and Blossom) for cost of 1th level slot through conversion. It even have implications with recovery from 6 level druid's feature, there class can have tons of 1th level slots from natural recovery, but it even better for 10 and 14 levels. You just have essentially 4th Wither and Blossom as 1th level spell. In my opinion, Land Druid is just pinnacle of spell slot management in THE game right now. And it's very distinctive role and fun one I think.
Kinda feel like land got a tad screwed because a land druid has by far the best spell list not only because it gets fireball, or polymorph, or web, or misty step, or hold person; it gets a level 5 spell for free per day via natural recovery and a free level 6 spell slots per day (or two level 3 slots, or three level 2 slots), as well. Imo that's crazy to not consider worthwhile because their sanctuary is a tad boring, yea, but it's still really good because it gives you a free resistance, +2 AC, +2 to dex saves to not just you but probably the entire party. Imagine you face a dragon of some sort, and you pretty heavily nerf their breath weapon. Plus, saying that dipping the same resistance as land type doesn't mesh is weird since apart from the polar spell list (which is probably the weakest) your spells don't really have elements. You're still going to benefit from polymorph or insect plague even when you go up against a green dragon and their poison, or misty step or tree stride or freedom of movement against a blue dragon, or blight or wall of stone against a red dragon, same as your evaluation of land of the sea's thunder+lightning spells. And they get three resistances, true, but you get to give a floating resistance (4 options) to your entire party alongside again +2 dex saves and +2 AC. Is land druid S tier? Not really, but it's every bit as good as circle of the sea. Dnd is a team game and land druid performs exceptionally well within that framework.
While the idea of a rat unleashing high level Druidic wrath is hilarious, the critical issue is whether the rat form can land a hit. The attack bonuses of those weaker beasts just aren’t sufficient as you get into higher levels.
Not much a problem when you are casting spells, since you retain your Wisdom.
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@@Xerxes2005haha yeah, you can take enhanced cantrips damage, and massacre enemies with conjure animals + spamming starry wisp as small rat haha 😁small rat with 18ac and 100hp with refreshing temp hp, doing 3d8+5+6d10 at level 11... Lmao 😁
Love the flavour of the duology between Land and Sea and betwen Moon and Stars. While I do miss things like Circle of Spores and what not these 4 goes lovingly with each other
I feel like Dungeon Dudes are leveraging damage over the overall picture with the 2024 class ranking. The reasoning is weak of why this is not A tier. To address theur example, if you go Arid and a Red Dragon shows up, you can't Fireball it, but you do have Damage Resistance against Fire (and at higher levels,when you are likely fighting a red dragon, can give your whole party Fire Resistance.) That's nuts.
I think something that is largely unintentional but thematically appropriate for the land druid is the fact that you don't always want to go with the obvious choice so for example you might choose arid to gain the fire resistance and ignore the offensive spells against a red dragon or choose a different land for more effective offensive spells (EI not fire spells). So it's almost like as a druid of the land you have to use wisdom to choose the thing that brings balance. After all deserts are rightfully thought of as hot and dry but that's ignoring the fact they do rarely get rain. So in a strange way it kinda works thematically even if mechanically it's a B.
Used a new Star Druid last night for the first time hoping a campaign that the characters were level 11 so could use the swap. Being able to swap between the different modes is awesome
My favorite character build right now is a SAD Circle of Stars Druid + Swarmkeeper Ranger that uses a Shillelagh quaterstaff and shield and has a swarm of ✨!
My only issue with the Moon Druid is the subpar to-hit bonus. And I can't think of many ways to make it better, magic items or otherwise. There's Insignia of Claws from Tyranny of Dragons hardcover, but that's about it.
Also Spider web is a save now, no attack roll. I'd give Moon an A, and Stars an S.
29 วันที่ผ่านมา +1
yeah, thats my only concern aswell. Atleast you now get advantage on attacks at level 10, and with all the elemental fury and lunar form bonuses, you really need to hit atleast once, so that helps. But having magic items to boost to-hit would be amazing addition. Or let your friends cast magic weapon on your claws :D
The level 10 feature only gives *Advantage* on your *_first_* attack, and only a *_few_* times per *Long Rest.* It even requires a *Bonus Action,* so you can't gain *Advantage* the same turn that you use *Wild Shape.*
29 วันที่ผ่านมา
@@SortKaffe yeah and as I said, you really need atleast one of your attacks to hit, so that definitely helps 😊 of course you can't use it every round, but it's still clear buff. And you get up to 8 used per day, not all that bad, considering it's basically buffed misty step
It is super weird that even Moon gets a spell list and Stars doesn't. I feel like in general they either nerfed tasha/xanathar classes or no significant changes. They could have easily put some divination spells for flavor without making it really powerful.
A Circle of the Sea Druid flying around can be using Thorn Whip to pull enemies up 10 feet so they fall and take 1d6 damage and fall prone. You can also be 10 feet above enemies and hit a foe with the Wrath of the Sea BA for 5d6 damage (I’d presume at level 10 WIS is at 20); the main flaws being it’s a CON save and on a save they take no damage.
I think we might be underestimating the power of the Land Druid’s expanded lists. It’s not only versatility. These are spells of a caliber that they wouldn’t usually have access to giving their spell slots more value on top of them getting more spell slots with their recovery feature
I am making a Sea Druid Gish type character. I am in the front, blasting with wrath of the sea and hitting with my weapon. True Strike when I do attack, good concentration spells, decent armor and weapons, and wrath of the sea doing good damage when it does hit. It is FUN!!!!!
I built a similar Character and I'd recommend looking at the Shillelagh+Booming Blade Combo instead of True Strike (if BB is allowed), as Shillelagh now scales with levels and BB gives you more damage than True Strike and has the Battlefield Control on top.
@@MilianDnD I am aware BB con be more damage, but I am not wanting to try and force the opponent to move and risk opportunity attacks. I am trying to follow the KISS method, even though spellcasters are not usually "simple".
My unpopular view = Land Druid was my favourite by far in 2014 rules, and the new 2024 version is even better, in terms of both thematics and mechanics
Land druid is the best druid. They get soooo many resources and you use land's aid as a second wind feature at higher levels because the damage scales badly.
@@PackTactics Idk about best, i could see Stars being very competitive for that getting free Guiding bolts and access to bonus action damage and extra healing is pretty solid for ongoing efficiency. I do agree that the resources are fantastic for Land but i think Stars has more added utility per turn in addition to the other spells they are using as opposed to more for lack of a better term "spell stamina". I think that's basically a per turn efficiency versus throughout the day efficiency.
With Circle of the Sea, if you don't use Wrath of the Sea, you barely have a subclass since every feature outside of the expanded spell list requires it. Really surprised they didn't mention this. It will make it much harder to choose to use Wild Shape for exploration/infiltration & for campaigns which run a lot of encounters in a day, the sea druid may struggle. Star Druids have a similar problem, but they at least get Cosmic Omen without wildshape.
This just stops being a real issue at level 5 since you can spend 1st level spells on Wild Shape uses. Like, at 6th level, you have 3 Wild Shapes + 1 per Short Rest, +1 per 1st level spell slots you expend. It's a meaningful issue in Tier 1, but not a controlling one.
I'm a forever DM, but given a chance to play, I'd be happy to play as any of these subclasses. Magician Circle of the Land with decent Int, you're better at Arcana than the Wizard in your party! Tortle Sea druid! With Diviner wizard I'd like to say "I saw this coming" when using Portent, with Stars druid it's "I saw this in the Stars". Give the Moon druid rat to the Barbarian to throw at your enemies and go full Monty Python on them... amazing stuff! This class is in a happy place in my mind. 😊
The problem with moon druid as it stands (before the new MM comes out) is that the plus to attack of the CR beasts that you can use at CR 3 and higher lags far behind everyone else. Take the CR 3 giant scorpion with its 3 attacks. We'll they are only a plus 4 to hit. While your contemporaries at level 9 are rocking plus 8 or 9 to hit before you add in magic weapons. So yha you can do a boat load of dice per hit IF you can actually hit. Since they made everything else scale off wis, why not your plus to hit be your spell attack bonus? Seems a simple fix though we will have to wait for the new MM to see the new forms we get.
Yeah, but that’s why spells like bless and abilities like bardic inspiration exist - slap a couple of buffs on your druid ally, and they ain’t ever missing.
Also idk why people don't think about the whole esoteric aspect of the stars. Divination and Augury do make a lot of sense. You have a star map! You have already Weal and Woe on your 'bardic inspiration'-like feat
Yeah, my stars druid is an astrologer and uses the stars to tell the future all the time. Any homebrew expanded list for a stars druid should definitely include some solid divination spells.
Circle of the Sea just feels like it's missing one thing: a reason to be in melee. Sure, you could play at range use Wrath of the Sea as keep away, but if enemies ignore you or fight you at range too, then it pretty much does nothing.
Not only that, but Constitution saves often succeed, so it is not a really good "keep away" ability. I believe that subclass calls for the Warden as a choice of Primal Order. That way, you at least have better armor when Wrath of the Sea fails and the enemy gets to you. Of course, when it hits, it's pretty good.
Circle of the Sea can be S tier if you take the sage background and take booming blade, you’re able to use wisdom instead of intelligence. So then you would be making all your attacks with wisdom instead of dex or strength. Pair that with the lvl 3 feature, primal strike and conjure woodland beings or conjure minor elementals. You’re the perfect melee druid that’s doing a boatload of damage
I’ve always wanted to like Circle of the Land so this is in the right direction. Mostly I just wish we had a Circle that was all about trees as a Druid because I do not care about Wild Shape at all but I figure Land is close enough
Fireball pushes Land druid to A for me. Land Druid is somehow a better Wildfire theme choice than Wildfire druid is. Wildfire druid doesn't get fireball or fire resistance and Land gets both.
About Land Druids, do not forget that Nature's Sanctuary lets you throw a fireball in the middle of melee and gives resistance to fire and +2 to the dex save (half cover) to your allies, but that it does not affect your ennemies. That would not be possible if the Arid Spells gave you cold resistance. Takes an action to set up, but you can them move your protective cube each round for 10 rounds with a bonus action, without concentration. In some ways, it's better than Sculpt Spells.
We had one in our party (2014 addition granted), and he used the chalice form the most.He was one of the best healers I have ever seen. With the improved healing spells, they will be incredible.
At lvl 6 the land Druid can cast more spells than any other character with wild resurgence and natural recovery and that one free casting and I would say that that is incredibly powerful tho I don’t disagree with B I don’t think yall noticed that which I only saw bc of Treeant monk
They didn't notice cus they didn't look. Not sure why everyone in these comments is saying they "don't disagree with B but" because you should disagree with it. They underrated Land and overrated Moon. They overrated Moon in 2014 as well.
I want a Druid subclass that just lets me transform into whomping willow from Harry Potter lol. If I’m in an area I can’t plant my roots then I just become teenage groot Side note: I love all of these but the wildfire Druid is still the most fun I’ve ever had with a Druid.
Dragon constelations' boost to INT and WIS checks is awesome when investigating an area during exploration. Especially if you choose Magician at level 1 and become amazing in Arcana and Nature checks. If combat then breaks out within the 10 min duration you already have your constelation going. I feel like this scenario is quite common. I would also be tempted to get the Keen Mind feat later in the game to get expertise in Arcana and use the Study action as a bonus action. At high level there might be a lot of MacGuffins and magical effects to figure out during combat and not being able to roll under 27 (at level 13) might help.
That just makes me think of the Theros setting book, especially since so much of the mythology of Theros is tied to the starry sky of Nyx and that is reflected in a lot of the god and creature designs.
I think the subclass I'd really love to see a new version release for to add to this list is the Spores druid. The concept of it is just so cool to me, but the mechanics fall a bit short. It has the potential to be a powerful subclass that lets you get some melee action while also having spells for support and a spore-infused minion/pet. I love it in theory, but it just doesn't have enough behind it to really sell me on it. I think just adding extra attack to it would make a world of difference, otherwise the Necrotic damage needs some big scaling so the one hit you do get has that umph behind it.
I think it's criminal that when given the chance D&D has failed to supply a plant-themed sub-class (Poison Ivy! c'mon! it's right there!). I played a Stars Druid for a couple of sessions (unfortunately our DM had to move so the game was abandoned). I leaned in so much on the stars/constellations/celestial thing that I was stumped for a minute with wildshape (like wildshaping into a regular animal). I solved it by my character turning into his starry form, forming a "constellation" that was of that animal, shift into that and then become that animal. Made wildshaping rather cool. DMs would you allow this on your table: for Woe/Weal (to get around the Dudes' problem with it), at night before a long rest, the druid rolls a nature check and reads the stars (they will need their star map to do this). If successful, they can choose, if unsuccessful, they roll a random die. I'm taking suggestions for DC. Obviously this can't be done if the sky cannot be seen, including cloudy evenings. I had another idea but it went against Treantmonk's suggestions on class features: it added more accounting for the player.
I love how Monty doesn't even try to hide his disdain for options he finds useless or boring, while Kelly almost always tries to find something positive about those same options.
Man I don't think I've disagreed with any tier rank before but CoL does not feel like a B at all. Each spell list is good and taking elementalism feat with Fire damage negates the most common resistance you'd run into. I don't really see how picking the "wrong" spell list is that detrimental because the base spell list can easily compensate.
I'm not sure about power level as I haven't played the other subclasses, but I've been having a blast with my Circle of the Land Druid who took Elemental Adept (Fire) at 4 and sticks with Arid land for the fire spells. It's super fun and thematic with my Fire Goliath. Burn them all!
The point is not that it’s detrimental, it’s at it’s not really as much of a boost to the base class and doesn’t offer as much extra options as others. Remember B tier is explicitly supposed to be potentially S tier in the right campaign or party compositions, it’s just that in comparison they can be either niche or just a general upgrade to the base class
@@OscarGomez-hg8cb I'm not arguing for an S tier, I just think it's a low A. I don't see how wizards can be considered so OP with prep time but druids are not afforded the same consideration especially when one of its biggest weaknesses (fire resistance)can be alleviated with a single feat. The other elements have much fewer monsters with resistance and you just need a few spells from druid list that you can upcast just in case you run into an immunity. It's technically possible to build almost all subclasses wrong but I feel like with this one, the base class offers enough options make it hard to pick wrong.
@@mariop8852 but can’t the base Druid class already do most of that? Sure, circle of the land is expanding its options to put it on par with the versatility of the wizard (which is definitely it’s greatest strength), which if you’re going to be the party’s primary spellcaster is a huge deal, but in some other situations it’s just really boosting the class up in that one specific aspect, isn’t it?
@@OscarGomez-hg8cb I guess it really depends on how much you value having spells you don't normally have access to. Especially the non concentration arcane spells. Personally I think 30 extra spells, even with caveats, is too good to be in the "could build wrong" list and belongs in the "will always be good in a party but not OP"
I'm curious what you would suggest to boost Circle of the Land to an A-Tier subclass. And now I want to add a faction to my campaign composed of cosmic-focused personages - the Zodiac Grove.
If I were DM, I would let the druid choose the resistance to either be the same as their focus or the opposite of their focus (but they have to announce it at the beginning of the day) and change their emanation to a bonus action to match the Circle of the Sea.
Gish Druid? L1 - Fighter 1. Second Wind. Weapons and Armor proficiencies and Masteries. Proficient in Con Saves. Fighting Style. L2-5 - Moon Druid 4. Ape form for Multiattack (and ability to use weapons and armor?) First half-feat for Wis 18. L6 - Fighter 2. Action Surge. Tactical Mind. L7-11 - Druid 9. ASI Wis 20. CME or Fount of Moonlight, Giant Scorpion form for 3 attacks/round. L12-19 - Druid 17. Ninth level spells, Another half-feat. L20 - F3. Pick your favorite subclass.
I think I disagree about nature's Ward. The fact that your resistance corresponds to the damage type that you deal means that you do have to choose if you're going to be resistant to or be able to damage the dragon or elemental being you're fighting, but if something pops up that you're not expecting, you didn't choose wrong. Wrong. You either just accidentally chose resistance or the ability to attack the thing, unless it's something with multiple elemental resistances like a demon. Also, while each list may give Big ticket elemental spells, it also has More than just elemental damage spell (other than polar which pretty much just offers sleet storm that is still half cold damage)
With the stars druid in dragon form, do you really need to take war caster and resilient? I think the upside of being able to take something else is really interesting. Like you could play a warden and get resilient con at level 4 and dual wielder at 8 instead, knowing even at level four, an enemy would have to do like 30 damage per instance for you to even make you roll.
I think what was missed for moon as since we are using stat blocks we have to use the creature we shape into its to hit. Sure you can be a rat with 18 ac and 80hp but won't hit anything with your attacks. Also I think it's weird that they gave land druid B because it didn't increase there direct dmg anyway but spells are the subclass feature here and it can now do more damage with its spells do too the additional options and being able to cast more than any caster.
Circle of land example - In the example you gave you’d have fire resistance when fighting that red dragon. That doesn’t sound like a detriment to me. Does it mean ALL your spells are fire? Nope. You still have all the normal druid spell access. It doesn’t hinder you. It benefits you greatly (damage reduction to most elemental types seems awesome to me). Does it make the class better than it was before? Yeah. And, highly versatile.
This is merely a speculation of mine, but I feel that they could have gone wilder with the circle of the sea. There is something to be said about the water being that much more vast and unknown yet filled with life. I am not saying they should do it, but I am intrigued by the idea that instead of the sea, it would be circle of water. Water is a life necessity even for life on land, and so it would make sense that there would be a circle that focused on seas, lakes, ponds, rivers, rain and snow. I get why there is more of a focus on land, but I think they could do more with water themes.
Moon druid wasnt S, was just stupidly broken soo early but then so underperforming in late levels. Now i LOVE how it scales but the early problem is solved too
I think you guys underestimate the versitality of the Land druid. And as I hear you know that too :D It is just noting shiny its relyable, the spells the extra slots. It is a great caster druid.
Lvl 6 land druid can cast 5 fireballs. Which is even more than wizards. I know its not an answer to every problem, but tell it to us with 1-3 combats per day, where every encounter gets couple fireballs until its ded
If there are any beasts with 3 attack multiattack, Moon druid will prolly be a top tier damage dealer without doing literally anything to build for it... God damn...
I DMed Drakkenheim for an excellent player who took Druid of the Stars (old version, though barely changed). It’s definitely an A on the cusp of S. When played well it’s amazing. Just shy of too strong.
I like the idea of taking shadow touched, now we have an invisible rat able to cast wrathfull smite and scare a big guy on top of adding another layer of damage.
Land Druid is the closest thing we have to a “Shaman” class in DnD. So I think no matter what it’s always going to have fans and I know those fans are happy with the buffs it got.
Also, I would argue that land druids having a "bad" wild shape options actually works in their favor at level 20 since they will more often than not have 4 wild shape uses to have an additional 8th level spell slot, the only class in the game to do that. Druids also get access to the newly buffed befuddlement spell to completely shut down opponent spell casters
I like that Circle of the Moon has some explicitly lunar flavor now in terms of the spells. If we get (or adapt) a 2024-rules version of the Lunar Sorcerer, there's room to build a whole moon-themed party.
The lack of an expanded spell-list on Stars strikes me as an odd outlier, with how consistent everything seems to be. Almost every spellcaster gets them now. :(
TBH, I prefer the free castings of *Guiding Bolt* over a bunch of random spells that I might never use. Casting it _without a spell slot_ even means that you can combine it with a *Bonus Action* spell on the same turn, e.g. *Healing Word* or *Grasping Vine* (both improved)
Kinda feels like Moon Druid isn’t polished because of the weird scaling. Maybe if you used spell attack and not the beast’s attack rolls but you really struggle to hit.
I def disagree about the Sea Druid's wild shape. I actually found it to be pretty niche. I was rarely in range to use it, nor did I ever want to be in range to use it. The "keep away" push being on a con save made Wrath feel too risky to be used defensively, and my druid felt way too squishy to be using it offensively. Perhaps with the right build, or armor, or multiclass, the Wrath of the Sea might feel better to use. In my case, as a Magician-focused Druid, it did not. In comparison to the Land Druid, I think that Land's Aid is far more useful than Wrath of the Sea in most cases (assuming you're playing your Druid as a backline caster.) The rest of the class is passive-heavy, so it feels feature-lite. Passive damage resistances, passive water breathing, and the swim speed & fly speeds feel redundant on a druid. (I guess it's nice to be able to fly or swim without having to change forms) The Sea's spell list is amazing, but in play it didn't feel that much different from the Land to me. I personally give the Sea a B. It was disappointing to me.
Land vs Sea - one thing with land is they have the largest volume of spells per day for a druid between recovery and wildshape-to-slot i would place sea as an A/A+ and land as an B+/A- . Land got a significant bump. I do understand your putting it in the B, as it could be a "build" but spells per day and versatility of spell list brings it almost to the A teir.
I kind of have to disagree with circle of the land on your example u pick arid and a red dragon attacks you and you are useless... well no not really sure your spells are not that helpfull... but you get fire resistance and your trees can give fire resistance to the team in case u get another type then u miss out on resistance.. but gain spells that are more effective.. this and that you get more spellslots comes out to low A tier for me definetly solid subclass
Agreed. Circle of the Land is the more-druidy druid subclass, like Champion Fighter. It's an easy one just to boost up your spellcasting but doesn't give a big power increase.
Agreed but poorly executed mechanically IMO. You need to be in Melee for their main ability & hope that the CON save will work, which will become less & less likely the more you level up. It would have been OK if it _started_ at 10 feet then increased to 15 as it would work as a potential repositioning tool without exposing you to melee attacks. I also can't agree with their assessment that the spell list is good too, or at least better than the Land Druid as they're mostly Druid spells you could pick anyway. 🤔
Having Conjure Minor Elementals with Archer will be so much fun.
29 วันที่ผ่านมา +2
with level 5 spellslot its not all that great actually, you get better damage from your other spells (fey, conjure animals, conjure woodland beings). On later levels its of course outscaling all of them, but I reckon that gets fixed in first errata hehe
The resistance feature makes it hard to choose the "wrong" terrain type for land druids. To your example, if you grabbed Arid and get attacked by a red dragon, you can't fireball it. You do, however, have fire resistance. Same thing happens with the other terrain types. If your spells don't work because you run into something that embodies that damage type, you get to benefit from the resistance, which is nice.
Yea, and having the 14th level feature give everyone else resistance is really cool
Great point! *Arid Land* can even give you a free casting of *Blight,* which isn't a bad against a *Red Dragon.*
They need to make a Druid subclass based off all the weird and freaky stuff nature does like those exploding seeds, cloning plant bodies or sapping vines.
I'm down for more plant-based chaos!
@@DungeonDudesYeeees! Wildshaping into a tree 🌳
I use those kind of mechanics for my plant themed monsters to make them more fun and interesting.
The Spore one makes plant zombies, but they are weak af so not great.
Circle of the Weird!
Re Land being B- I don't know, it's two extra castings of a level 3 spell at 6th level. That is... A lot! And extra 4th and extra 3rd at 7th, then 4 level 4 spells at level 8 instead of 2...
That is so much extra spell casting, I feel this is being under rated a lot!
It's an A for me in any case.
The versatility of druids is just unmatched! Control, damage, healing, infiltration, espionage, all in a prepared caster so you can just pick which role you need to fill per long rest.
Amazing class
@@alexnyman8011 I agree. My favorite classes are Druid and Paladin. Both can take on more than one role
I think the fact that Land druids get 4-11 spells at any spell slot below 6th once per day is insane and underrated. At level 7 you get 5 spells back including 4th leveled spells effectivally doubleing your high level spells (which kind of mean unlimited fireballs). That's as good if not better than many capstones. I dont know how Treemonk does his average damage per round (based on a full day with ~4) encounters but I think it should effectivly double most other druids damage at all levels of play beyond levels 1-5. Also all druids get polymorph and Wizards never eratta'd Pollymorph to not give 157 temporary hitpoints that stay if you lose concentration early (or choose to drop it instantly) its like if they made a 9th level upgraded heal spell and let most classes get it at 4th level. land doing that twice at lvl 7 is broken.
I think y’all really missed the fact you still have to use the beast’s attack roll which don’t scale at all, so you do still have to keep up the treadmill of getting better wild shape forms if you actually want to hit to do damage
They might have skipped that bc we don’t have the new MM yet. There could be better beasts to come.
@mwolsen96 but *CR 1-4 Beasts* can never have more than a *+2 Proficiency Bonus,* so beast form's *chance to hit* _bearily_ scales 🐻
@@SortKaffe you use your own bonus, not the beast.
@@etolanleyvon8277You do? Where do you get that? I was definitely under the impression you use the beast attack roll bonus.
"You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them."
Still have to use the subpar attack bonuses of the beast form. This will most likely become a problem at higher levels yet again.
Bit underrated thing about land druids -
they get to use one spell without spellslot, being very useful if you need to cast bonus action spell at the same turn aswell. So chuck that extra fireball or put up stone wall to protect allies, and help them out with healing word at the same turn!
Also being able to cast 3 fireballs at level 5 is nothing to scoff at imo. 5 fireballs at level 6... damn
2 fireballs at level 5 actually. You only get the good features at level 6.
@@Jin_1814 haha, yeah you are right of course 😊😊
That point about the Land druid being not great e.g. if you pick arid and a Red Dragon attacks, that's where the lvl 10 feature WOULD be useful as you would have resistance to Fire. So think of it as a fallback resistance in case you run into something you can't handle so well with your spell pick, it's actually pretty handy.
Oh, and as a Moon druid if you want to be good at social situations just take 3 levels in Fey Wanderer Ranger for Otherworldly Glamour. Boom, all-round character 😂. Although personally I'd take a 2 levels of Rogue instead for Expertise in stealth and Cunning Action. Best infiltrator ever!
Land druid is woefully underrated. It vastly improves the Druids spell list, and this is a caster class. If you must upgrade a Land druid, just allow them to change their Land affiliation at the start of a round, and choose any of the resistances they want per short rest. Or boost the Natures Recovery to be a free casting of their highest level spell known..which becomes a free 6, 7, 8, or 9th level spell eventually.
I will never forget casting Sunburst during a fortress battle as a Stars Druid and flavouring the spell as a falling star
IMO, *Land Druid* is the *S tier* subclass. The level 6 feature, *Natural Recovery,* not only allows you to cast more spells per day than any other spellcaster, but it also lets you cast two big spells on your first turn in the major fight of the day _(as you can cast one of your _*_Circle Spells_*_ "without expending a spell slot")._
At level 7, you can cast the much-improved *Grasping Vine* as a _Bonus Action_ to deal _4d8 Bludgeoning damage, Grapple,_ and _pull_ an enemy 30 feet. This can line up multiple foes for casting *Fireball* as an _Action._ Against a *Red Dragon,* adapt by following up with a free *Blight* instead of *Fireball* _(showing that _*_Arid Land_*_ is __-not-__ versatile in combat)._
By level 9, you can default to *Polar Land* for even more flexibility. For example, use *Grasping Vine* as setup for a free *Cone of Cold* or *Ice Storm* - or combine one of the *Circle Spells* requiring *Concentration* _(Fog Cloud, Hold Person, or Sleet Storm)_ with the buffed *Healing Word.*
💯 the dudes seem to think Wildshape is the primary feature of of the Druid. It is not. Spell casting is the primary feature, and the Land Druid does that better and more often, with more versatility, and with more higher level spells than any other Druid.
I think B is fair. As they define it, B tier can be S tier with the right player in the right campaign. I think that the new Land Druid can ABSOLUTELY be S tier with a clever player in a campaign where you have time to plan your adventuring days. But is it crazy powerful by default? Not necessarily. It's also never bad. Even in the hands of an inexperienced player in a campaign where you don't ever know what you're going to be doing on any given adventuring day, this class will still be GOOD. Hence, B tier.
On the other hand, I can't imagine Moon Druid deserving an S tier if the Land Druid gets B tier. The Moon Druid excels at a certain play style. That play style is not going to speak to everyone.
@jamesdosdall8391 *Moon Druid* is the _definition_ of *B tier,* as it _"may be S-tier in certain campaigns",_ specifically *low-level* campaigns.
By level 14, *Moon Druids* can still only turn into a *CR 4 Beast* with a meager *+2 Proficiency Bonus,* so they can _bearily_ hit anything 🐻
I agree with the reasoning but I can say the same thing with the Champion Fighter Subclass with the right build (and feats).
You already have knowledge of how to use a great combination of spells with the right "Land" and the base spells of the Druid. *Many players don't think this far* (i.e spells and feats combos), so this subclass could in fact be a S-tier with a good/imaginative/experienced player but will probably feel more like a C-tier with many others players. It's not a trap o course, far from it, but it's not a guaranteed powerful subclass.
Even if you get "Potent Spellcasting", Circle of the Land is hard to use (like any hard spellcasting class in fact).
On the contrary, Circle of the Moon is easy to use (on the surface nonetheless) with "Primal Strike", two or three good beast forms, you wildshape in the melee + some spells is necessary, you are the thing you want and imagine to be in the encounter ; nobody cannot complain about what you do (unless troll).
@@SortKaffe Eh...the one CR 4 2024 beast we have, the elephant, may technically only have a +2 PB, but it also has Str 22, so it has a +8 to hit. A Fighter at the same level has +10. That's meaningfully better on the Fighter's end, but the Druid does more damage per attack by a fair bit if buffed. The Fighter at that level has a 60% accuracy or so, and Treantmonk's optimized fighter build at that level has a DPR of around 54.
The Elephant, meanwhile, has only a 50% chance to hit, sure, but does 2d8+2d6+6 and then another 1d8+2d10 once per turn. That's not gonna quite equal the Fighter's offense, but it's enough accuracy and damage that it's viable and useful. If they teleport to secure advantage (viable most turns at 14th level) they do a DPR of around 44. A third attack, however, ups that a lot if there is indeed a beast with a third attack...and I suspect there will be (with a third attack, I think that probably exceeds the Fighter's DPR, though it depends on details).
And, if they have advantage from something other than a teleport they can also spend a Bonus Action on Wild Shape itself for 42 Temp HP, while the Fighter's equivalent Second Wind heals only 19.5, and can be used less often. So they're significantly more durable. To say nothing of their utility...the Fighter has better saves and Weapon Masteries, don't get me wrong, but the fact that the Druid has some advantages over them is evidence they're pretty solid.
We really do need a good look at the actual beast stats, but while the Moon Druid's accuracy is a bit low, it's not low enough to be a real problem most of the time. And that's all at level 14, which is a bad level in regards to accuracy for the Druid, comparatively (13th and 14th are after everyone else gets to +5, but before the Druid gets to CR 5 Beasts), if admittedly also a level when they get a damage bump...they'd look a lot worse at 13th level very specifically, I admit.
I really think that as land druid, you can never go wrong with having arid spells ready for fireball, having that very useful fire resistance and just preparing bunch of cold spells (storm, cone of cold and so on).
If you look at arid spellist, only real fire damage there is actually fireball, other spells have other uses or different damage types (or are unimportant in big picture as burning hands for example).
It actually makes you ready for most threats if you dont know what you are up against. Only when you go for specific adventure, you need to tweak that, and on higher levels I would reckon that having specific resistance can be more useful than those new spells (esp. since you can share that resist), and you just prepare opposing spell damage types.
Temperate land has also very useful niche, and that is mobility - misty step, tree stride, freedom of movement, great if you really need to get moving, with only lightning bolt being tied to specific damage type. With new sleep I would even argue that its the best generally useful spellist, and unique way to get misty step, but I dislike the lightning resist here. And getting fey touched is better way to obtain misty step anyway.
As for tropical - again, only poison damage there is stinking cloud. Other spells have different uses or different damage type. And they are ALL very useful against any enemy, you can never go wrong with polymorph and web.
So I would not be too fixated on the damage types, as most of the added spells DO NOT have rely on that specific damage type, instead there is great variety and you can always prepare your default spells to compensate what is missing.
So yeah, little bit underselling the land druid here imo =)
I feel you are underselling the Land Druid way too much that you are ignoring the vast potential it has. The versatility of the 4 different spell lists aside, the features make the Land Druid the best spellcaster from the other Druids.
Natural Recovery not only allows them to cast one of their Circle Spells for free a day, they basically have an Arcane Recovery feature to regain their spell slots on a Short Rest. That's insane! Even if you happen to pick a "bad" land spell list, you still have all these other Druid spells alongside the prepared spell list from the Circle. And you thus have more spell resources for the day, which makes the Land Druid far more valuable as a spellcaster. And being a spellcaster means that you will be doing plenty of damage in general because that's just how spellcasters are.
And thanks to Nature's Ward, even if you are fighting a Red Dragon while having Arid spell list, while Fireball isn't gonna do much, but neither will the Red Dragon's fire attacks thanks to Fire Resistance. Nature's Sanctuary will give that resistance to your allies, and as a bonus, provide half-cover. Making the dragon's bite-claw attack be harder to land, as well as making their fire attacks not hit as hard will provide far more survivability for the team.
The Land Druid's sheer versatility as being the best spellcaster in the Druid subclasses and deserves to be in the A-tier at minimum.
I'd honestly argue that it belongs in the S-tier, but still, it does not belong at the B-tier.
I see it as A as well. Well worth playing.
100% agree with this synopsis! You don't have to be the guy doing the big thing to the enemy all of the time. Sometimes it's better to help your friends succeed where you can't!
Just don't forget, B tier isn't bad and means its S tier in the right setting/hands. I would agree that they did forget or rather glazed over the additional features of the regained spells portion. I'd still give it a A but without a doubt it will never be a bad subclass, in any setting.
When they said that it wasnt that great like the resistance to fire coming with all the fire spells, i mean if you are going against fire users you can get the resistance, and use you normal druid spells to get cold dmg or diffefent elemental dmgs you dont have to use fire, i get their point, but they might have been a bit to harsh
@@sebastianrojo8952 Yes, they were. To the point they were using the Sea Druid spell list and going all, "Oh, they have 2 different elements on their expanded spell list, so if the enemy resists one, they don't resist the other."
They're pretending like the Druid has no other spells but the expanded spell list.
TLDR: Land druids are awesome!!
I'm currently playing as a Land Druid, starting from level 3, currently at level 11. You truly are the most Spellcaster-y spellcaster in the game. If you like casting spells, this is even better than a wizard. You get nature's recovery to give you not only spell slots back (like the wizard can), but also a free casting of one of your most powerful spells. Because you get access to spells like Web, Fireball, Misty Step, etc, you get to feel like a wizard while also being a powerhouse healer (using the new healer feat with Aura of Vitality is insane). In my game we also have a wizard in the party, and we've had a lot of fun roll play saying that I am actually a better wizard than the wizard.
The versatility is insane!! Being able to go from blaster to controller to utility is just great. And more importantly than that, it's tremendously fun to do so. We have gone through days far far easier than we should have because at level 10 I effectively had 3 5th level slots (1 standard, 1 free, 1 from natural recovery), so I could Cone of Cold the minions in 2 separate fights AND could then heal the party with Mass Cure Wounds (again, with the Healer feat this is even better!!) between the fights. And then after that, oh yeah I have all my other spell slots and Wild Shape for utility purposes.
If you are fighting a Red Dragon, you WANT to take the Arid circle that day. Sure your Circle spells might be less good, but they are not your only spells!! And you get resistance to the dragons Fire breath (combine it with Absorb Elements and watch your DM cry!!)
This, for me, is the definition of an A tier subclass. It's versatile, fun, you can occupy multiple rolls in the party and help them shine with Utility and support while also laying the smack down if you want to. This is a FANTASTIC subclass and would thoroughly recommend playing this to EVERYONE.
And you also get to use armor and shield. Totally agree with you
Rules lawyer here: Absorb elements cannot be combined with fire resistance.
But otherwise I agree that land druids seem to be awesome!
@Jin_1814 you make a very good point. Both me and the dm forgot this at the time though, so I got to feel like a badass. While ordinarily, I stick quite heavily to the rules, Sometimes forgetting the rules leads to awesome memorable moments.
The Sea Druid makes me super curious about how they’re going to handle the Storm Sorcerer when they remake it.
Honestly i think you gave Land an underrating. Each list gives you spells that are universally helpful, at least a few. And you gain back spell slots. Combining Web with the Land’s Aid feature for example. It makes a great build with room for roleplaying! A little more weight to that, too?
Circle of the sea has a very nice synergy with spike growth. You cast spike growth with your action and then use your bonus action to push the enemy into it. On subsequent rounds you can use thorn whip and wrath of the sea to push and pull the enemy in the spikes. Potentially HUGE damage right at level 3.
I'm not going to say that your assessment was wrong, but I will say that the Land Druid is my favorite! I think the Land Druid really speaks to a particular type of player (including myself) who wants to play a "Batman" sort of character who can have a solution to any problem if you have the time to prep and plan. The Druid's ability to change its spells on a long rest naturally incline the Druid towards this sort of playstyle, and the Land Druid is the best option for this playstyle. Not every Druid is going to want that, but the Land Druid is the quintessential Druid because it triples down on what Druids are naturally good at: versatility.
A B tier subclass is supposed to be able to push into A or S tier with the right playstyle in the right campaign. Because my party loves to plan things out meticulously and I as a player love to have the versatility to change my party role on a dime, this is the S tier class for me!
Their assessment is wrong, they only play Moon Druids, they don't take the versatility or support of the other subclasses into account. The idea that "you could pick the wrong land" is countered by the same argument for the Moon Druid "you could not have seen the beast you need to turn into"
I think Land Druid is strongly undervalued there to be honest. Like any spellcaster it very strong on high levels, but Land just shines in middle levels.
Main point of Natural Recovery isn't even first part (that great), but second. It just that good have additional cast of your max spellslot spell for 6-10 levels. Third fireball on 6 level? Sure. Second polymorph for 7 level? Of course.
And Land aid isn't so great, but from 5 level it's essentially 2th level spell (Wither and Blossom) for cost of 1th level slot through conversion. It even have implications with recovery from 6 level druid's feature, there class can have tons of 1th level slots from natural recovery, but it even better for 10 and 14 levels. You just have essentially 4th Wither and Blossom as 1th level spell.
In my opinion, Land Druid is just pinnacle of spell slot management in THE game right now. And it's very distinctive role and fun one I think.
That's a good point but they don't have a very good use for their wild shape like other druids
Kinda feel like land got a tad screwed because a land druid has by far the best spell list not only because it gets fireball, or polymorph, or web, or misty step, or hold person; it gets a level 5 spell for free per day via natural recovery and a free level 6 spell slots per day (or two level 3 slots, or three level 2 slots), as well. Imo that's crazy to not consider worthwhile because their sanctuary is a tad boring, yea, but it's still really good because it gives you a free resistance, +2 AC, +2 to dex saves to not just you but probably the entire party. Imagine you face a dragon of some sort, and you pretty heavily nerf their breath weapon.
Plus, saying that dipping the same resistance as land type doesn't mesh is weird since apart from the polar spell list (which is probably the weakest) your spells don't really have elements. You're still going to benefit from polymorph or insect plague even when you go up against a green dragon and their poison, or misty step or tree stride or freedom of movement against a blue dragon, or blight or wall of stone against a red dragon, same as your evaluation of land of the sea's thunder+lightning spells. And they get three resistances, true, but you get to give a floating resistance (4 options) to your entire party alongside again +2 dex saves and +2 AC.
Is land druid S tier? Not really, but it's every bit as good as circle of the sea. Dnd is a team game and land druid performs exceptionally well within that framework.
While the idea of a rat unleashing high level Druidic wrath is hilarious, the critical issue is whether the rat form can land a hit. The attack bonuses of those weaker beasts just aren’t sufficient as you get into higher levels.
Not much a problem when you are casting spells, since you retain your Wisdom.
@@Xerxes2005haha yeah, you can take enhanced cantrips damage, and massacre enemies with conjure animals + spamming starry wisp as small rat haha 😁small rat with 18ac and 100hp with refreshing temp hp, doing 3d8+5+6d10 at level 11... Lmao 😁
Love the flavour of the duology between Land and Sea and betwen Moon and Stars. While I do miss things like Circle of Spores and what not these 4 goes lovingly with each other
I feel like Dungeon Dudes are leveraging damage over the overall picture with the 2024 class ranking.
The reasoning is weak of why this is not A tier. To address theur example, if you go Arid and a Red Dragon shows up, you can't Fireball it, but you do have Damage Resistance against Fire (and at higher levels,when you are likely fighting a red dragon, can give your whole party Fire Resistance.) That's nuts.
*Arid Land* even lets you cast *Blight* for free, so it's not like they can't do significant damage to a *Red Dragon.* Their argument doesn't hold up.
We're missing a circle of the winds now since we have compelling options for water, earth, and fire
The Circle of The Sea Druid: "The world is divided into two groups of beings; those who Surf and those who don't."
I think something that is largely unintentional but thematically appropriate for the land druid is the fact that you don't always want to go with the obvious choice so for example you might choose arid to gain the fire resistance and ignore the offensive spells against a red dragon or choose a different land for more effective offensive spells (EI not fire spells). So it's almost like as a druid of the land you have to use wisdom to choose the thing that brings balance. After all deserts are rightfully thought of as hot and dry but that's ignoring the fact they do rarely get rain. So in a strange way it kinda works thematically even if mechanically it's a B.
Used a new Star Druid last night for the first time hoping a campaign that the characters were level 11 so could use the swap. Being able to swap between the different modes is awesome
My favorite character build right now is a SAD Circle of Stars Druid + Swarmkeeper Ranger that uses a Shillelagh quaterstaff and shield and has a swarm of ✨!
My only issue with the Moon Druid is the subpar to-hit bonus. And I can't think of many ways to make it better, magic items or otherwise. There's Insignia of Claws from Tyranny of Dragons hardcover, but that's about it.
Also Spider web is a save now, no attack roll. I'd give Moon an A, and Stars an S.
yeah, thats my only concern aswell. Atleast you now get advantage on attacks at level 10, and with all the elemental fury and lunar form bonuses, you really need to hit atleast once, so that helps. But having magic items to boost to-hit would be amazing addition. Or let your friends cast magic weapon on your claws :D
The level 10 feature only gives *Advantage* on your *_first_* attack, and only a *_few_* times per *Long Rest.* It even requires a *Bonus Action,* so you can't gain *Advantage* the same turn that you use *Wild Shape.*
@@SortKaffe yeah and as I said, you really need atleast one of your attacks to hit, so that definitely helps 😊 of course you can't use it every round, but it's still clear buff. And you get up to 8 used per day, not all that bad, considering it's basically buffed misty step
I can think of at least one moon druid who'd want to be an 18 AC goldfish with 100 extra hit points. . .
_“It's fine. We’re basically Gods”_
It is super weird that even Moon gets a spell list and Stars doesn't. I feel like in general they either nerfed tasha/xanathar classes or no significant changes. They could have easily put some divination spells for flavor without making it really powerful.
A Circle of the Sea Druid flying around can be using Thorn Whip to pull enemies up 10 feet so they fall and take 1d6 damage and fall prone. You can also be 10 feet above enemies and hit a foe with the Wrath of the Sea BA for 5d6 damage (I’d presume at level 10 WIS is at 20); the main flaws being it’s a CON save and on a save they take no damage.
I think we might be underestimating the power of the Land Druid’s expanded lists. It’s not only versatility. These are spells of a caliber that they wouldn’t usually have access to giving their spell slots more value on top of them getting more spell slots with their recovery feature
We aren't, the dudes are. They only play Moon, they don't care about versatility
I am making a Sea Druid Gish type character. I am in the front, blasting with wrath of the sea and hitting with my weapon. True Strike when I do attack, good concentration spells, decent armor and weapons, and wrath of the sea doing good damage when it does hit. It is FUN!!!!!
I built a similar Character and I'd recommend looking at the Shillelagh+Booming Blade Combo instead of True Strike (if BB is allowed), as Shillelagh now scales with levels and BB gives you more damage than True Strike and has the Battlefield Control on top.
@@MilianDnD I am aware BB con be more damage, but I am not wanting to try and force the opponent to move and risk opportunity attacks. I am trying to follow the KISS method, even though spellcasters are not usually "simple".
My unpopular view = Land Druid was my favourite by far in 2014 rules, and the new 2024 version is even better, in terms of both thematics and mechanics
I don't think thats unpopular its more factual imo. Its definitely a A subclass now, regardless of the bias DD have always had for Moon.
Land druid is the best druid. They get soooo many resources and you use land's aid as a second wind feature at higher levels because the damage scales badly.
@@PackTactics Idk about best, i could see Stars being very competitive for that getting free Guiding bolts and access to bonus action damage and extra healing is pretty solid for ongoing efficiency. I do agree that the resources are fantastic for Land but i think Stars has more added utility per turn in addition to the other spells they are using as opposed to more for lack of a better term "spell stamina". I think that's basically a per turn efficiency versus throughout the day efficiency.
With Circle of the Sea, if you don't use Wrath of the Sea, you barely have a subclass since every feature outside of the expanded spell list requires it.
Really surprised they didn't mention this. It will make it much harder to choose to use Wild Shape for exploration/infiltration & for campaigns which run a lot of encounters in a day, the sea druid may struggle.
Star Druids have a similar problem, but they at least get Cosmic Omen without wildshape.
This just stops being a real issue at level 5 since you can spend 1st level spells on Wild Shape uses. Like, at 6th level, you have 3 Wild Shapes + 1 per Short Rest, +1 per 1st level spell slots you expend.
It's a meaningful issue in Tier 1, but not a controlling one.
@@DeadmanwalkingXI That's a good point. I forgot that they added that feature in 2024.
I'm a forever DM, but given a chance to play, I'd be happy to play as any of these subclasses. Magician Circle of the Land with decent Int, you're better at Arcana than the Wizard in your party! Tortle Sea druid! With Diviner wizard I'd like to say "I saw this coming" when using Portent, with Stars druid it's "I saw this in the Stars". Give the Moon druid rat to the Barbarian to throw at your enemies and go full Monty Python on them... amazing stuff! This class is in a happy place in my mind. 😊
fixating on ‘output’ for characters is a creative red herring that, to me, draws the reader from a vast world of more nuanced ideas and styles
Land is an A if you run proper adventuring days, more spell slots, more fun
Amusingly, I think this is the first time they mirrored their old rankings
Moon - S
Land - B
Stars - A
Thank you for doing this video, I was waiting for this one and was very happy to see it today. You guys rock!!
The problem with moon druid as it stands (before the new MM comes out) is that the plus to attack of the CR beasts that you can use at CR 3 and higher lags far behind everyone else. Take the CR 3 giant scorpion with its 3 attacks. We'll they are only a plus 4 to hit. While your contemporaries at level 9 are rocking plus 8 or 9 to hit before you add in magic weapons. So yha you can do a boat load of dice per hit IF you can actually hit.
Since they made everything else scale off wis, why not your plus to hit be your spell attack bonus? Seems a simple fix though we will have to wait for the new MM to see the new forms we get.
Yeah, but that’s why spells like bless and abilities like bardic inspiration exist - slap a couple of buffs on your druid ally, and they ain’t ever missing.
Circle of the stars needs Melf's Minute Meteors
Also idk why people don't think about the whole esoteric aspect of the stars. Divination and Augury do make a lot of sense. You have a star map! You have already Weal and Woe on your 'bardic inspiration'-like feat
Yeah, my stars druid is an astrologer and uses the stars to tell the future all the time. Any homebrew expanded list for a stars druid should definitely include some solid divination spells.
Circle of the Sea just feels like it's missing one thing: a reason to be in melee. Sure, you could play at range use Wrath of the Sea as keep away, but if enemies ignore you or fight you at range too, then it pretty much does nothing.
Not only that, but Constitution saves often succeed, so it is not a really good "keep away" ability. I believe that subclass calls for the Warden as a choice of Primal Order. That way, you at least have better armor when Wrath of the Sea fails and the enemy gets to you. Of course, when it hits, it's pretty good.
Circle of the Sea can be S tier if you take the sage background and take booming blade, you’re able to use wisdom instead of intelligence. So then you would be making all your attacks with wisdom instead of dex or strength. Pair that with the lvl 3 feature, primal strike and conjure woodland beings or conjure minor elementals. You’re the perfect melee druid that’s doing a boatload of damage
I’ve always wanted to like Circle of the Land so this is in the right direction. Mostly I just wish we had a Circle that was all about trees as a Druid because I do not care about Wild Shape at all but I figure Land is close enough
Fireball pushes Land druid to A for me. Land Druid is somehow a better Wildfire theme choice than Wildfire druid is. Wildfire druid doesn't get fireball or fire resistance and Land gets both.
I feel that the Land druid's place is to be the druidest druid. Other than that, completely agree with your ranking.
About Land Druids, do not forget that Nature's Sanctuary lets you throw a fireball in the middle of melee and gives resistance to fire and +2 to the dex save (half cover) to your allies, but that it does not affect your ennemies.
That would not be possible if the Arid Spells gave you cold resistance. Takes an action to set up, but you can them move your protective cube each round for 10 rounds with a bonus action, without concentration.
In some ways, it's better than Sculpt Spells.
We had one in our party (2014 addition granted), and he used the chalice form the most.He was one of the best healers I have ever seen. With the improved healing spells, they will be incredible.
At lvl 6 the land Druid can cast more spells than any other character with wild resurgence and natural recovery and that one free casting and I would say that that is incredibly powerful tho I don’t disagree with B I don’t think yall noticed that which I only saw bc of Treeant monk
They didn't notice cus they didn't look. Not sure why everyone in these comments is saying they "don't disagree with B but" because you should disagree with it. They underrated Land and overrated Moon. They overrated Moon in 2014 as well.
Land rocks if you don't like to wild shape. I wanted Spore, but since it isn't in the PHB, Land will have to be it.
I want a Druid subclass that just lets me transform into whomping willow from Harry Potter lol. If I’m in an area I can’t plant my roots then I just become teenage groot
Side note: I love all of these but the wildfire Druid is still the most fun I’ve ever had with a Druid.
Dragon constelations' boost to INT and WIS checks is awesome when investigating an area during exploration. Especially if you choose Magician at level 1 and become amazing in Arcana and Nature checks. If combat then breaks out within the 10 min duration you already have your constelation going. I feel like this scenario is quite common.
I would also be tempted to get the Keen Mind feat later in the game to get expertise in Arcana and use the Study action as a bonus action. At high level there might be a lot of MacGuffins and magical effects to figure out during combat and not being able to roll under 27 (at level 13) might help.
The Stars Druid would be amazing in a Greek mythology setting
That just makes me think of the Theros setting book, especially since so much of the mythology of Theros is tied to the starry sky of Nyx and that is reflected in a lot of the god and creature designs.
Land Druid should get a burrow speed like sea Druid gets swim speed.
It’s a cool idea, but burrow speeds are insanely powerful
@ maybe a burrow speed only through soil and sand and not through rock, so they can’t just burrow into every castle and stronghold they come across.
I think the subclass I'd really love to see a new version release for to add to this list is the Spores druid. The concept of it is just so cool to me, but the mechanics fall a bit short. It has the potential to be a powerful subclass that lets you get some melee action while also having spells for support and a spore-infused minion/pet. I love it in theory, but it just doesn't have enough behind it to really sell me on it. I think just adding extra attack to it would make a world of difference, otherwise the Necrotic damage needs some big scaling so the one hit you do get has that umph behind it.
I think it's criminal that when given the chance D&D has failed to supply a plant-themed sub-class (Poison Ivy! c'mon! it's right there!). I played a Stars Druid for a couple of sessions (unfortunately our DM had to move so the game was abandoned). I leaned in so much on the stars/constellations/celestial thing that I was stumped for a minute with wildshape (like wildshaping into a regular animal). I solved it by my character turning into his starry form, forming a "constellation" that was of that animal, shift into that and then become that animal. Made wildshaping rather cool.
DMs would you allow this on your table: for Woe/Weal (to get around the Dudes' problem with it), at night before a long rest, the druid rolls a nature check and reads the stars (they will need their star map to do this). If successful, they can choose, if unsuccessful, they roll a random die. I'm taking suggestions for DC. Obviously this can't be done if the sky cannot be seen, including cloudy evenings. I had another idea but it went against Treantmonk's suggestions on class features: it added more accounting for the player.
I love how Monty doesn't even try to hide his disdain for options he finds useless or boring, while Kelly almost always tries to find something positive about those same options.
Man I don't think I've disagreed with any tier rank before but CoL does not feel like a B at all. Each spell list is good and taking elementalism feat with Fire damage negates the most common resistance you'd run into. I don't really see how picking the "wrong" spell list is that detrimental because the base spell list can easily compensate.
I'm not sure about power level as I haven't played the other subclasses, but I've been having a blast with my Circle of the Land Druid who took Elemental Adept (Fire) at 4 and sticks with Arid land for the fire spells. It's super fun and thematic with my Fire Goliath. Burn them all!
The point is not that it’s detrimental, it’s at it’s not really as much of a boost to the base class and doesn’t offer as much extra options as others.
Remember B tier is explicitly supposed to be potentially S tier in the right campaign or party compositions, it’s just that in comparison they can be either niche or just a general upgrade to the base class
@@OscarGomez-hg8cb I'm not arguing for an S tier, I just think it's a low A. I don't see how wizards can be considered so OP with prep time but druids are not afforded the same consideration especially when one of its biggest weaknesses (fire resistance)can be alleviated with a single feat. The other elements have much fewer monsters with resistance and you just need a few spells from druid list that you can upcast just in case you run into an immunity. It's technically possible to build almost all subclasses wrong but I feel like with this one, the base class offers enough options make it hard to pick wrong.
@@mariop8852 but can’t the base Druid class already do most of that? Sure, circle of the land is expanding its options to put it on par with the versatility of the wizard (which is definitely it’s greatest strength), which if you’re going to be the party’s primary spellcaster is a huge deal, but in some other situations it’s just really boosting the class up in that one specific aspect, isn’t it?
@@OscarGomez-hg8cb I guess it really depends on how much you value having spells you don't normally have access to. Especially the non concentration arcane spells. Personally I think 30 extra spells, even with caveats, is too good to be in the "could build wrong" list and belongs in the "will always be good in a party but not OP"
Just made dinner and this drops. Impeccable timing!
I'm curious what you would suggest to boost Circle of the Land to an A-Tier subclass.
And now I want to add a faction to my campaign composed of cosmic-focused personages - the Zodiac Grove.
If I were DM, I would let the druid choose the resistance to either be the same as their focus or the opposite of their focus (but they have to announce it at the beginning of the day) and change their emanation to a bonus action to match the Circle of the Sea.
Gish Druid?
L1 - Fighter 1. Second Wind. Weapons and Armor proficiencies and Masteries. Proficient in Con Saves. Fighting Style.
L2-5 - Moon Druid 4. Ape form for Multiattack (and ability to use weapons and armor?) First half-feat for Wis 18.
L6 - Fighter 2. Action Surge. Tactical Mind.
L7-11 - Druid 9. ASI Wis 20. CME or Fount of Moonlight, Giant Scorpion form for 3 attacks/round.
L12-19 - Druid 17. Ninth level spells, Another half-feat.
L20 - F3. Pick your favorite subclass.
I think I disagree about nature's Ward. The fact that your resistance corresponds to the damage type that you deal means that you do have to choose if you're going to be resistant to or be able to damage the dragon or elemental being you're fighting, but if something pops up that you're not expecting, you didn't choose wrong. Wrong. You either just accidentally chose resistance or the ability to attack the thing, unless it's something with multiple elemental resistances like a demon.
Also, while each list may give Big ticket elemental spells, it also has More than just elemental damage spell (other than polar which pretty much just offers sleet storm that is still half cold damage)
With the stars druid in dragon form, do you really need to take war caster and resilient? I think the upside of being able to take something else is really interesting. Like you could play a warden and get resilient con at level 4 and dual wielder at 8 instead, knowing even at level four, an enemy would have to do like 30 damage per instance for you to even make you roll.
Been playing a sea druid and it’s been really fun so far. We’re only lv 4 but I’m looking forward to my future features and spells.
I think what was missed for moon as since we are using stat blocks we have to use the creature we shape into its to hit. Sure you can be a rat with 18 ac and 80hp but won't hit anything with your attacks. Also I think it's weird that they gave land druid B because it didn't increase there direct dmg anyway but spells are the subclass feature here and it can now do more damage with its spells do too the additional options and being able to cast more than any caster.
Circle of land example -
In the example you gave you’d have fire resistance when fighting that red dragon. That doesn’t sound like a detriment to me.
Does it mean ALL your spells are fire? Nope. You still have all the normal druid spell access.
It doesn’t hinder you. It benefits you greatly (damage reduction to most elemental types seems awesome to me).
Does it make the class better than it was before? Yeah. And, highly versatile.
This is merely a speculation of mine, but I feel that they could have gone wilder with the circle of the sea. There is something to be said about the water being that much more vast and unknown yet filled with life. I am not saying they should do it, but I am intrigued by the idea that instead of the sea, it would be circle of water. Water is a life necessity even for life on land, and so it would make sense that there would be a circle that focused on seas, lakes, ponds, rivers, rain and snow. I get why there is more of a focus on land, but I think they could do more with water themes.
Moon druid wasnt S, was just stupidly broken soo early but then so underperforming in late levels. Now i LOVE how it scales but the early problem is solved too
I think you guys underestimate the versitality of the Land druid. And as I hear you know that too :D It is just noting shiny its relyable, the spells the extra slots. It is a great caster druid.
Those are some crazy buffs to moon druid. Blasting lightning in my happy bubble sounds the most fun.
Lvl 6 land druid can cast 5 fireballs.
Which is even more than wizards.
I know its not an answer to every problem, but tell it to us with 1-3 combats per day, where every encounter gets couple fireballs until its ded
If you just want maximum fireballs Fiend Warlock has always been a thing. But yeah Land does seem exiting
@@Felkon Fireball isn't the answer to every problem but it is the answer to 5 of them.
If there are any beasts with 3 attack multiattack, Moon druid will prolly be a top tier damage dealer without doing literally anything to build for it... God damn...
I DMed Drakkenheim for an excellent player who took Druid of the Stars (old version, though barely changed). It’s definitely an A on the cusp of S. When played well it’s amazing. Just shy of too strong.
Yay! I have been waiting on this video for a month. Glad its here!
I like the idea of taking shadow touched, now we have an invisible rat able to cast wrathfull smite and scare a big guy on top of adding another layer of damage.
Unsurprisingly, druids still rock
Land Druid is the closest thing we have to a “Shaman” class in DnD.
So I think no matter what it’s always going to have fans and I know those fans are happy with the buffs it got.
I'm here to represent those fans.
It is interesting that people didn't like the Moon druid in 5.5 for a bit, but now it seems like it scales better overall.
Also, I would argue that land druids having a "bad" wild shape options actually works in their favor at level 20 since they will more often than not have 4 wild shape uses to have an additional 8th level spell slot, the only class in the game to do that. Druids also get access to the newly buffed befuddlement spell to completely shut down opponent spell casters
I kinda like potent cantrip on a moon druid just to be a sneaky or flying caster that deals great damage at range
I like that Circle of the Moon has some explicitly lunar flavor now in terms of the spells. If we get (or adapt) a 2024-rules version of the Lunar Sorcerer, there's room to build a whole moon-themed party.
The lack of an expanded spell-list on Stars strikes me as an odd outlier, with how consistent everything seems to be. Almost every spellcaster gets them now. :(
TBH, I prefer the free castings of *Guiding Bolt* over a bunch of random spells that I might never use. Casting it _without a spell slot_ even means that you can combine it with a *Bonus Action* spell on the same turn, e.g. *Healing Word* or *Grasping Vine* (both improved)
Kinda feels like Moon Druid isn’t polished because of the weird scaling. Maybe if you used spell attack and not the beast’s attack rolls but you really struggle to hit.
That's an obvious house rule. Honestly, it's the only fix that it needed to scale.
I'm disappointed Sea, while the bubble is cold like the Abjuration Wizard there could have been more Features outside of combat.
14:52 That’s what I’ve been saying! Buff rat!!
I def disagree about the Sea Druid's wild shape. I actually found it to be pretty niche. I was rarely in range to use it, nor did I ever want to be in range to use it. The "keep away" push being on a con save made Wrath feel too risky to be used defensively, and my druid felt way too squishy to be using it offensively. Perhaps with the right build, or armor, or multiclass, the Wrath of the Sea might feel better to use. In my case, as a Magician-focused Druid, it did not. In comparison to the Land Druid, I think that Land's Aid is far more useful than Wrath of the Sea in most cases (assuming you're playing your Druid as a backline caster.)
The rest of the class is passive-heavy, so it feels feature-lite. Passive damage resistances, passive water breathing, and the swim speed & fly speeds feel redundant on a druid. (I guess it's nice to be able to fly or swim without having to change forms)
The Sea's spell list is amazing, but in play it didn't feel that much different from the Land to me. I personally give the Sea a B. It was disappointing to me.
"I'd be a butterfly."
"Why?"
"Because no one ever suspects the butterfly."
Land vs Sea - one thing with land is they have the largest volume of spells per day for a druid between recovery and wildshape-to-slot i would place sea as an A/A+ and land as an B+/A- . Land got a significant bump. I do understand your putting it in the B, as it could be a "build" but spells per day and versatility of spell list brings it almost to the A teir.
Loving these tier lists as always, though I'd also love to see one for species after it's done!!
I kind of have to disagree with circle of the land
on your example u pick arid and a red dragon attacks you and you are useless...
well no not really
sure your spells are not that helpfull... but you get fire resistance and your trees can give fire resistance to the team
in case u get another type then u miss out on resistance.. but gain spells that are more effective.. this and that you get more spellslots comes out to low A tier for me definetly solid subclass
Convincing case, bravo.
Agreed. Circle of the Land is the more-druidy druid subclass, like Champion Fighter. It's an easy one just to boost up your spellcasting but doesn't give a big power increase.
Hear me out what if we do sharknado?
2014 land Druid was one of the infiltrators! Grassland spell list was awesome
Great Video! Just in time to create my Druid. 💫
Sea Druid is such a cool Concept
Agreed but poorly executed mechanically IMO.
You need to be in Melee for their main ability & hope that the CON save will work, which will become less & less likely the more you level up.
It would have been OK if it _started_ at 10 feet then increased to 15 as it would work as a potential repositioning tool without exposing you to melee attacks.
I also can't agree with their assessment that the spell list is good too, or at least better than the Land Druid as they're mostly Druid spells you could pick anyway.
🤔
I wonder if they are planning to redo (eveeeentually ofc) the ranking for the 7 party roles.. or if its still similar to 5e, with regards to roles.
I'm sure they will fuck the Druid one up again.
If the Sea Druid has a Bard in the party, that Bard better be going “I AM THE STORM THAT IS APPROACHING” when inspiring the Druid.
Eladrin Circle of the Land would be fun to play
Having Conjure Minor Elementals with Archer will be so much fun.
with level 5 spellslot its not all that great actually, you get better damage from your other spells (fey, conjure animals, conjure woodland beings).
On later levels its of course outscaling all of them, but I reckon that gets fixed in first errata hehe