Last year a got hold of a few boxes of accubond LR.. was the first time i tried sorting because i had so many of them. After the first box was done I had 18 different groups from one box. I contacted Nosler about the variation and never did receive a reply. Swapped up to Hornady.. I know they aren't F-Class material but they did not have as much deviation between them like the others. One day our local sports shop will get more than 1 box of bergers in stock and I will have to buy a few in the same lot. Nothing worse than burning one box of bullets for load development and then not being able to find them again for another year, at which point its a completely different lot. Thanks again for the video!
WOW…a (Verne/Arnold?)Jenke electrical jacket concentricity measuring device….there are so few of us “nerds” that have ever touched one of these…. Nosler had just brought out the “ballistic tip” to replace the solid base line…when these came out. Using the Jenke device, I compared the brand new BTs to Berger and Fowler match bullets…most of the Noslers gave a variance of zero…while the best match bullets of the day from Berger and Fowler varied 2 to 3. A Hornady bullet at that time measured around 8 to 10 on the machine.
Great video, Keith. For what it's worth to everyone else, the latest test data from Applied Ballistics showed that if you're going to perform only one sorting operation, sort by overall length and use the shortest and longest outliers for sighters/foulers. Then batch the rest in 2 or 3 batches, depending on your remaining length variations. Batches of .002 or .003, etc. Whatever length spread you are comfortable with. Best of luck, everyone, with your precision pursuit.
@eric rumpel in the book, they tested the effects of sorting by all measurements. Overall length was the most relevant. He is not the only one, but, David Gosnell doesn't clean ANYTHING. Does he know what he's doing? He doesn't really anneal either. He buys enough brass for the barrel so that after 3 or 4 firings, the barrel is shot out anyway. If I remember correctly he ONLY sorts bullets by overall length. He also runs his 284 way slower than most, and he has won and set more world records than almost everyone. If you want to sort by every dimension and clean primer pockets, etc, then you do you.
@eric rumpel so Keith isn't a liar... because you agree with him. But David, Erik Cortina, and many others ARE liars because you don't agree with them. Got it, now that we know you're nothing but a dogmatic internet troll, in love with his own convictions, clamoring for affirmation from successful shooters that prepare the way YOU do, we can bring this debate to a conclusion. Now that we know where you stand, to the point where you target other people to vomit your dogmatic convictions upon; we can all sit back and wait for you to start piling up Records, National and World Championships. The relevant difference between you and I to this discussion is that I don't care how you process your ammunition. It doesn't hurt my feelings if someone doesn't agree with me. But it VERY clearly hurts you. You've proved it in print, by targeting me. Did I hunt you down and barf all my bullshit on you? I don't think so. Dogma=Inexperience Ask around.
@Winning in the Wind good evening Keith. It is chapter 5 in the new Modern Advancements Volume 3. "BC Consistency". You're an engineer and I'm not, but it looked pretty thorough to a layman. I won't spoil any more than I already have.
@@winninginthewind Hi Keith, quick and informative thank you for the info, got one question for you ... when doing the bearing surface length test, are you using the same size inserts for both sides of the bullet? (Same size insert you use for the O-Give ... I take it) Thank you.
I used to sort cast bullets by weight, but, that was looking for voids, air pockets.couldn't really tell the difference on target , sorted at +/-.2 gr, on a 209gr bullet, at 200yds. Wind made more difference.
I speak as a neophyte with no experience in competitive shooting but to me I have always understood it as a sport of the elimination of as many variables as can be done practically. So these practices make sense to me. Happy shooting and thanks for the informative video.
Bought some bulk 2nds awhile back. Did 3 separate measurements. Dismissed a wrinkled jacket for practice and shot my chrono with some brass jacket from it. Defective jackets are a no @3890fps
Well, now I know who bought all the 180s. Damnit, Keith! I've seen seating depth cause a 2.5" shift at 1k from POA to POI. I've had a few bullets in a test lot reflect this.
When we develop a load we notice that a 0.003" change in seating depth can significantly increase group size. So I've wondered if the seating stem contacting the bullet on a different part of the ogive could cause enough difference of where the ogive contacts the rifling.
Like with anything else, of course it can. The next part starts with but... With that in mind, bullets with consistent BTO or bearing surface lengths rarely exhibit significant differences in ogive shape within the lots that I've measured...
Question for you....after seeing the interview with the inventor of the promethius ....could a ohaus dial o grain be a substitute until a promethius is procured?
High velocity spreads are not as magical as they appear. You need good ignition that is consistent and a powder that works well in your cartridge along with consistently assembled ammunition. Remember, SD is only a reasonable measurement with larger samples. The SD of a 3 shot string is effectively nothing more than the ES restated as smaller numbers.
I weigh bullets in batches. I throw 5 at a time in my powder pouring device and throw it on the scale. If there is a variation of .8gr or more I look to see if it’s coming from a single culprit. Every once in a while I find an anomaly. Like a lapua bullet that was somehow missing the lead inside. I don’t even know how that happens. It should have weighed 123gr and it weighed something silly like 20gr. I do weigh factory seconds in smaller batches.
Would you do a video about the best 5 or 10 things to do for better accuracy. I have watched many videos trying to figure out what I should do as a non competition shooter to improve my accuracy to shoot small targets out to 1000yds.
OK I'm doing some of the same thing right now. What order do you sort and what kind of batches do you end up with? Maybe a sketch or breakdown of the results. I just got done with primers. Need I tell you how much fun I'm having? GL Merry Christmas and a Happier New Year
@@ericrumpel3105 Well, I think it's time for you to do some self reflection Eric. I see all of your ignorant, belligerent comments you left on my original comment...are MAGICALLY GONE. Which means one of two things, either your shame got the best of you, knowing that Keith was reading your officious excrement. OR... Keith deleted it because it was toxic and he doesn't want it to be part of his channel. Either way, YOU look like(and are) a smug, narcissistic little boy with a megaphone. Learn to watch, listen and learn with grace and dignity. If you want to comment, offer your opinion in a respectful way and start an actual discussion. Don't bully people with your Dogma as if you have all the answers. Keith is one of the best shooters and wind readers in the world, and HE doesn't even have it all figured out. Which is why he made this channel. Not to prove he knows everything, but to explore ALL of the nuances in a scientific way, and take us along with him. The short and sweet version of this comment, if your shame allowed you to read this far is: Grow up!
@@timjohnson2731 I removed them,...because I seen your's had been removed, but I'll say it again, what I said before - take your meds. & calm down - this is not worth your health, it is just a discussion, & the only thing I can gather is that you took my first comment personally, where I did not mean for it to be directed to you, it was for the, others,...so if it went that direction, I apologize for being unclear that way, if I am wrong of my assumption in that way, ...well - then either take your meds. or get back on them, & as far as grow-up goes....wish I had that option because I am older than you by quite a ways I am betting, not too mention, most new discoveries found in the many different disciplines of shooting that I have competed in before you were born are neither new or discovered, fyi - the greatest one improvement in precision shooting has been the ability to make things more precision, from scales,powders & primers, to barrels & optics, that said, calm down, I said my piece, you may or may not wish to carry on - do what ever you want, but nothing you say will change the way I feel or the way I speak my mind of experience & common sense, even if that means calling out your mentors you follow.
@@winninginthewind it's more a test to see the worst that could happen if you weren't paying attention to that variable. Because I cannot create test populations that are truly identical, I try and fit lines to scatter plot data. Obvously the weaker the signal to noise ratio, the larger the test sample needs to be to get a clear trend, but that is also an indication that my time would be better spend controlling a different variable.
Berger and premium Sierra bullets have such tight tolerances, it makes sorting pointless. Hornady on the other hand... that's a completely different story.
I'm glad I only shoot .22lr here in the UK at a local club. The only choices I have to make regarding ammunition are, which brand and which grade. Though actually now I am using Lapua as my Anschutz 54.30 loves it, and Center X is now my preferred choice. For my ability that's it. 🙂 However I am fascinated by the level of analysis you go to. Very interesting.
Before the year 1934 in the USA a person no matter the age could call up their local hardware store and order a Browning M1919 heavy machine gun, three cases of Dynamite and a Thompson sub machine gun and have it delivered to their door via the US Mail. We too have lost freedom. Keep shooting my friend.
Hi, in the video you say "fixed amount of energy involved powder and primer" Do you know what the energy of the primer is, how many grains of powder it is? Greetings from Poland
This is very interesting, thank you. However, I am still a little confused about the overall process. If I understsnd correctly, you sort first by bearing surface length. You then sub-sort those batches by overall length, and then point them, is that correct? And you keep all these batches seperate? And then you check internal concentricity. Is this another batching process, or do you have a certain acceptable standard and anything that doesn't make the cut is used for fouling shots or discarded? I'm struggling to see how you keep track of all the various batches. Also, how many bullets do you need to buy in order to end up with large enough batches to be of use?
All correct. I use the "best" for big matches. The rest are used for practice or local matches. Resealable sandwich bags work for keeping everything separated. Nothing is wasted, even the funky ones (which there are very few if any) get used as foulers. If I shoot 2k in important matches a year, I'll need about 3k for that plus experiments and practice. Sorting all of those will give me an over-abundance of awesome bullets.
Where do you go for F-Class matches? I noticed in previous videos that you’re a member at CSF. I live in south Snohomish county and I’d be interested in learning more about how/where to get into this sport. Thanks!
Paul Bunyan in Puyallup, Seattle Rifle and Pistol in Machias, CSF in Ravensdale, and Rattlesnake in Benton City. Go search for the Washington Rifle and Pistol Association website. They have a match calendar under Highpower rifle. Any prone match in that schedule will include F-class, but the schedule also includes contact information for match directors.
That's so funny sort in Australia we can't buy bullets let alone sort no stock being sent here we use hunting projectiles just to be able to compete be a luxury to sort which i do but keep the best for championships if we get a shipment arrive in Australia we get a limit of how many we can buy so fare i have received 500 vld 185 jug in two years ? makes it hard to be choosy / sort it's gotten so bad we have to choose what comp we can shot at and prices are crazy .
I have a question ❓. Do you wear gloves when sorting and loading in long sessions? I do because I wish to spare the new shiny projectiles moisture and salts off my hands from long sessions of sorting or loading . I really do this because I may not shoot an interest loading and it might sit for a while on a shelf or in a box and I like keeping it shiny. Just curious.
I know I will learn things in the future that will reset my understanding of some things. That is the nature of experiential learning. I assume that all of my assumptions are wrong, including that one...
Another good one Keith. I get it re Juenke (spell) being probably a step too far for us up and comers. But I wonder - do you ever find a real group-stuffer - eg folded jacket in using the device? Maybe one in a thousand? Or never? Thanks again!
I appreciate the time and effort you put in for our education. Thank you❤️
Seems very clear to me and I love the admission that some things are compulsions rather than necessities. Merry Christmas to all!
Last year a got hold of a few boxes of accubond LR.. was the first time i tried sorting because i had so many of them. After the first box was done I had 18 different groups from one box. I contacted Nosler about the variation and never did receive a reply. Swapped up to Hornady.. I know they aren't F-Class material but they did not have as much deviation between them like the others. One day our local sports shop will get more than 1 box of bergers in stock and I will have to buy a few in the same lot. Nothing worse than burning one box of bullets for load development and then not being able to find them again for another year, at which point its a completely different lot.
Thanks again for the video!
WOW…a (Verne/Arnold?)Jenke electrical jacket concentricity measuring device….there are so few of us “nerds” that have ever touched one of these….
Nosler had just brought out the “ballistic tip” to replace the solid base line…when these came out.
Using the Jenke device, I compared the brand new BTs to Berger and Fowler match bullets…most of the Noslers gave a variance of zero…while the best match bullets of the day from Berger and Fowler varied 2 to 3. A Hornady bullet at that time measured around 8 to 10 on the machine.
One of the most intelligent deliveries of information on youtube. Thank you for your content.
Most informative videos on TH-cam, thanks as always!
Definitely appreciate the honest insight and especially the acknowledgment of superstition and compulsion in the shooting sports.
Great stuff man. Really loving these videos. Breath of fresh air from other content out there ;)
Thank you for the very candid information.
I love how you can get bullets. Down under we are scratching for anything. Let alone Berger's.
Unfortunately, things are scarce here too. I'm just fortunate to have acquired a stock prior to this latest shortage.
Great video, Keith. For what it's worth to everyone else, the latest test data from Applied Ballistics showed that if you're going to perform only one sorting operation, sort by overall length and use the shortest and longest outliers for sighters/foulers. Then batch the rest in 2 or 3 batches, depending on your remaining length variations. Batches of .002 or .003, etc. Whatever length spread you are comfortable with.
Best of luck, everyone, with your precision pursuit.
@eric rumpel in the book, they tested the effects of sorting by all measurements. Overall length was the most relevant.
He is not the only one, but, David Gosnell doesn't clean ANYTHING. Does he know what he's doing? He doesn't really anneal either. He buys enough brass for the barrel so that after 3 or 4 firings, the barrel is shot out anyway. If I remember correctly he ONLY sorts bullets by overall length. He also runs his 284 way slower than most, and he has won and set more world records than almost everyone.
If you want to sort by every dimension and clean primer pockets, etc, then you do you.
@eric rumpel so Keith isn't a liar... because you agree with him. But David, Erik Cortina, and many others ARE liars because you don't agree with them.
Got it, now that we know you're nothing but a dogmatic internet troll, in love with his own convictions, clamoring for affirmation from successful shooters that prepare the way YOU do, we can bring this debate to a conclusion.
Now that we know where you stand, to the point where you target other people to vomit your dogmatic convictions upon; we can all sit back and wait for you to start piling up Records, National and World Championships.
The relevant difference between you and I to this discussion is that I don't care how you process your ammunition. It doesn't hurt my feelings if someone doesn't agree with me. But it VERY clearly hurts you. You've proved it in print, by targeting me. Did I hunt you down and barf all my bullshit on you? I don't think so.
Dogma=Inexperience
Ask around.
Hi Tim,
Which book is that info in? I'm buying some more of Bryan's books, and want to read that test.
@Winning in the Wind good evening Keith. It is chapter 5 in the new Modern Advancements Volume 3. "BC Consistency". You're an engineer and I'm not, but it looked pretty thorough to a layman. I won't spoil any more than I already have.
@@winninginthewind Hi Keith, quick and informative thank you for the info, got one question for you ... when doing the bearing surface length test, are you using the same size inserts for both sides of the bullet? (Same size insert you use for the O-Give ... I take it) Thank you.
As always, thanks for sharing your methods, Mr. Wind.
Refreshingly honest as always. Please run for governor.
Keep it up. I learn a lot.
Great info ! Thanks 😊
I used to sort cast bullets by weight, but, that was looking for voids, air pockets.couldn't really tell the difference on target , sorted at +/-.2 gr, on a 209gr bullet, at 200yds. Wind made more difference.
I speak as a neophyte with no experience in competitive shooting but to me I have always understood it as a sport of the elimination of as many variables as can be done practically. So these practices make sense to me. Happy shooting and thanks for the informative video.
Great way to measure bearing surface ,never thought of that 👍
Bought some bulk 2nds awhile back. Did 3 separate measurements. Dismissed a wrinkled jacket for practice and shot my chrono with some brass jacket from it. Defective jackets are a no @3890fps
Buy Berger Bullets and leave the measuring to them. LOL
those ARE Berger bullets Rob 😁. It does not hurt to sort them. I had a badge of sierras 142 6.5s that will go 0.005 extreme spread. So I sort them.
Well, now I know who bought all the 180s. Damnit, Keith! I've seen seating depth cause a 2.5" shift at 1k from POA to POI. I've had a few bullets in a test lot reflect this.
When we develop a load we notice that a 0.003" change in seating depth can significantly increase group size. So I've wondered if the seating stem contacting the bullet on a different part of the ogive could cause enough difference of where the ogive contacts the rifling.
Like with anything else, of course it can. The next part starts with but...
With that in mind, bullets with consistent BTO or bearing surface lengths rarely exhibit significant differences in ogive shape within the lots that I've measured...
Thanks!
Thank You!
Question for you....after seeing the interview with the inventor of the promethius ....could a ohaus dial o grain be a substitute until a promethius is procured?
I have been having a problem with high SD etc. I have even weighed primers and used same weight primers in testing.
High velocity spreads are not as magical as they appear. You need good ignition that is consistent and a powder that works well in your cartridge along with consistently assembled ammunition.
Remember, SD is only a reasonable measurement with larger samples. The SD of a 3 shot string is effectively nothing more than the ES restated as smaller numbers.
Very good information. One less concern on the line. Do you point your 600 yards lots. Have a happy holidays.
Thanks Keith !!!
Thank you for another interesting video. What is that device you are using to hold the calipers with?
I weigh bullets in batches. I throw 5 at a time in my powder pouring device and throw it on the scale. If there is a variation of .8gr or more I look to see if it’s coming from a single culprit. Every once in a while I find an anomaly. Like a lapua bullet that was somehow missing the lead inside. I don’t even know how that happens. It should have weighed 123gr and it weighed something silly like 20gr. I do weigh factory seconds in smaller batches.
Would you do a video about the best 5 or 10 things to do for better accuracy. I have watched many videos trying to figure out what I should do as a non competition shooter to improve my accuracy to shoot small targets out to 1000yds.
🙏 🙏 🙏 🙏
Did you already see this one: th-cam.com/video/o-n30R5mCGQ/w-d-xo.html
OK I'm doing some of the same thing right now. What order do you sort and what kind of batches do you end up with? Maybe a sketch or breakdown of the results. I just got done with primers. Need I tell you how much fun I'm having? GL Merry Christmas and a Happier New Year
.....LOL.....
@@ericrumpel3105 Well, I think it's time for you to do some self reflection Eric. I see all of your ignorant, belligerent comments you left on my original comment...are MAGICALLY GONE.
Which means one of two things, either your shame got the best of you, knowing that Keith was reading your officious excrement. OR... Keith deleted it because it was toxic and he doesn't want it to be part of his channel.
Either way, YOU look like(and are) a smug, narcissistic little boy with a megaphone. Learn to watch, listen and learn with grace and dignity. If you want to comment, offer your opinion in a respectful way and start an actual discussion. Don't bully people with your Dogma as if you have all the answers.
Keith is one of the best shooters and wind readers in the world, and HE doesn't even have it all figured out. Which is why he made this channel. Not to prove he knows everything, but to explore ALL of the nuances in a scientific way, and take us along with him.
The short and sweet version of this comment, if your shame allowed you to read this far is: Grow up!
@@timjohnson2731 I removed them,...because I seen your's had been removed, but I'll say it again, what I said before - take your meds. & calm down - this is not worth your health, it is just a discussion, & the only thing I can gather is that you took my first comment personally, where I did not mean for it to be directed to you, it was for the, others,...so if it went that direction, I apologize for being unclear that way, if I am wrong of my assumption in that way, ...well - then either take your meds. or get back on them, & as far as grow-up goes....wish I had that option because I am older than you by quite a ways I am betting, not too mention, most new discoveries found in the many different disciplines of shooting that I have competed in before you were born are neither new or discovered, fyi - the greatest one improvement in precision shooting has been the ability to make things more precision, from scales,powders & primers, to barrels & optics, that said, calm down, I said my piece, you may or may not wish to carry on - do what ever you want, but nothing you say will change the way I feel or the way I speak my mind of experience & common sense, even if that means calling out your mentors you follow.
Not getting any audio..Not if the video isn't finished rendering
No audio
Give it another try. I just watched it and it worked.
Yep, works
That seems to be a common TH-cam bug lately. Try again later.
After sorting, it is not very difficult to design a small test that compares the shooting performance of the upper extreme with the lower extreme.
The challenge is getting enough bullets that fall into the extremes without inducing other confounding factors.
@@winninginthewind it's more a test to see the worst that could happen if you weren't paying attention to that variable. Because I cannot create test populations that are truly identical, I try and fit lines to scatter plot data. Obvously the weaker the signal to noise ratio, the larger the test sample needs to be to get a clear trend, but that is also an indication that my time would be better spend controlling a different variable.
Berger and premium Sierra bullets have such tight tolerances, it makes sorting pointless. Hornady on the other hand... that's a completely different story.
i have found differences in overalll length in berger bullets. i have one berger bullet 0.018 off of my zero bullet in my last sorting of 500 bullets.
I had a batch of Bergers F Open 184s that varied in length by .030", shortest to longest.
What do you use to help seat your bullets smoothly?
Is that just two bullet comparators with the same inserts for your bearing surface measurement at 1:26 ?
Yes
Hi Keith, do you use the same size of O-Give inserts on both ends when measuring for bearing surface length?
yes
Those calipers are only accurate to within +/- .001.
I want to know where u buy big bulk berger bullets
that's bbbbb lol
Good information
i love the logic and not just following the pack mantality
I'm glad I only shoot .22lr here in the UK at a local club. The only choices I have to make regarding ammunition are, which brand and which grade. Though actually now I am using Lapua as my Anschutz 54.30 loves it, and Center X is now my preferred choice. For my ability that's it. 🙂 However I am fascinated by the level of analysis you go to. Very interesting.
Before the year 1934 in the USA a person no matter the age could call up their local hardware store and order a Browning M1919 heavy machine gun, three cases of Dynamite and a Thompson sub machine gun and have it delivered to their door via the US Mail. We too have lost freedom. Keep shooting my friend.
Hi, in the video you say "fixed amount of energy involved powder and primer" Do you know what the energy of the primer is, how many grains of powder it is? Greetings from Poland
I don't
That tiny SD will never transfer an F class target
This is very interesting, thank you. However, I am still a little confused about the overall process. If I understsnd correctly, you sort first by bearing surface length. You then sub-sort those batches by overall length, and then point them, is that correct? And you keep all these batches seperate? And then you check internal concentricity. Is this another batching process, or do you have a certain acceptable standard and anything that doesn't make the cut is used for fouling shots or discarded? I'm struggling to see how you keep track of all the various batches. Also, how many bullets do you need to buy in order to end up with large enough batches to be of use?
All correct. I use the "best" for big matches. The rest are used for practice or local matches.
Resealable sandwich bags work for keeping everything separated. Nothing is wasted, even the funky ones (which there are very few if any) get used as foulers. If I shoot 2k in important matches a year, I'll need about 3k for that plus experiments and practice. Sorting all of those will give me an over-abundance of awesome bullets.
@@winninginthewind thanks for the explanation.
Is your primer tool available
Not yet
I sent you a PM about the Bullet Genie on Accurate Shooter.
Sorry, I lost that one in the maze of questions.
Where do you go for F-Class matches? I noticed in previous videos that you’re a member at CSF. I live in south Snohomish county and I’d be interested in learning more about how/where to get into this sport. Thanks!
Paul Bunyan in Puyallup, Seattle Rifle and Pistol in Machias, CSF in Ravensdale, and Rattlesnake in Benton City. Go search for the Washington Rifle and Pistol Association website. They have a match calendar under Highpower rifle. Any prone match in that schedule will include F-class, but the schedule also includes contact information for match directors.
Any thoughts on the Buffalo Case Volume Gauge? it’s pneumatic.
I did some testing on it for Patreon. It's interesting, but my big take-away was that my brass is better than I expected.
That's so funny sort in Australia we can't buy bullets let alone sort no stock being sent here we use hunting projectiles just to be able to compete be a luxury to sort which i do but keep the best for championships if we get a shipment arrive in Australia we get a limit of how many we can buy so fare i have received 500 vld 185 jug in two years ? makes it hard to be choosy / sort it's gotten so bad we have to choose what comp we can shot at and prices are crazy .
I have a question ❓. Do you wear gloves when sorting and loading in long sessions? I do because I wish to spare the new shiny projectiles moisture and salts off my hands from long sessions of sorting or loading . I really do this because I may not shoot an interest loading and it might sit for a while on a shelf or in a box and I like keeping it shiny. Just curious.
No. My bullets have never shown any propensity to tarnish in my environment.
Reloading and trying to shoot small groups is a rabbit hole!
I just want to know who you had to rob to get 2000 7MM Bergers. 😂
Very well presented, as always. You may be wrong in one or more of your assumptions, but you’ve made me a believer, and that makes two of us.👍👍
I know I will learn things in the future that will reset my understanding of some things. That is the nature of experiential learning. I assume that all of my assumptions are wrong, including that one...
Another good one Keith. I get it re Juenke (spell) being probably a step too far for us up and comers. But I wonder - do you ever find a real group-stuffer - eg folded jacket in using the device? Maybe one in a thousand? Or never? Thanks again!
💯 percent.! No bullet genie needed. Played with it , No difference seen.
✔️✔️✔️👍🤗