Bummer I was hoping you had advice on how to get my neck to stop hurting while in the prone... I must be doing something wrong but i need to find a cure ....thanks
After 50 years of hunting in cold and wet conditions , shooting prone is a distant dream ! Watching Keith shooting prone competitions makes me envious … his groups make me drool !
Hello Keith and I am a new subscriber. These points are intriguing and compelling! If I have learned nothing in the vast sea of reloading wisdom, at least I've learned the importance of consistency in every detail. I think this video really drills that one. I look forward to seeing more how-to videos. Thank you for the time, effort, and expense in producing them!
Dang... you are giving away my best prep secrets reserved for the best accuracy. I use 0000 steel wool though. Things I have been doing for years. Very good presentation.
Great Video Keith, one point/query. I keep my brass in lots, anneal (AMP), resize with die without expander, and then follow up with a Mandrel, but I get better ES/SD if I clean my brass again after the resizing process (15 min in water bath), before charging the case and seating the Bullet. This gives me a clean Brass/Copper interface, which you suggest should be avoided, so I am a bit confused! I am firing the rounds within a week or two of reloading so don't know if the comment made in an earlier post by Wyatt apply? Appreciate any feedback Thanks again
one time, i brushed my necks with a 9mm bronze brush (but chucked on a drill, gave it a good buzz) and i seated all my bullets long, everything went fine until i went to seat them to final depth and they were all effectively welded in place. crushed 80 shoulders out of 150 pieces. took a lot of time to recover from that and lost 68 bullets to ogive damage. learned a lot that day.
I wet tumble in stainless media every firing myself. I use Hornady One Shot Case Lube to lube bullets prior to seating as well. With clean necks, lube is a must.
Hey man. Love yer vids. Super helpful. Don't know if u have it but I'll search your vids more closely but I'd love to see a full start to finish on reloading 223. Every step. What you use. Methods. The whole works. Even what brand of coffee you drink while doing it
I just watched this video on neck tension for the second time. You stated perfectly clean brass on bullet creates variables, and my first thought went to new factory rounds and my second thoughts were the brass coming from these newer wet tumblers. Should we not in general be getting the necks wet tumbler clean? Or should we be using a lubricant? Just really curious. Thank you for all this insight.
I make my mandrel .002 under but I use graphite impregnated brass . I have used for 500 rounds and still no wearing measured on the mandrel. Smooth sailing.
@Winning in the Wind. Actually for years, folks have been describing or using the WRONG TERM. It is NOT TENSION, but COMPRESSION that the case neck is exerting upon the bearing surface of the bullet....btw, I am a degreed engineer and shooter as well!
Thank you for the input. You are absolutely correct! Using "commonly misused terms" is just part of the job... Did my definitions in the beginning of the video communicate what I was talking about well? I felt like I needed to describe it in that way to make sure we were all talking about the same thing.
@@winninginthewind, fully understand! Yes, the net result is very similar once the force to overcome the compression of the case neck upon the bullet's surface is attained. Similar to tension in that a force is "applied" to release the load. I always remembered tension as a weight suspended by a string. Whereas compression is the force that is being exerted by a weight upon another object. Btw, I do enjoy your explanation on matters of shooting and reloading. Thank you, 💯🇺🇲💥
I'm soon to graduate as a ME. For the topic at hand I think you certainly got the point across. Something to consider is consistent neck thickness. Differing thicknesses will result in differing resistances and interference forces. Given that you lubricate and see different seating pressures I'd say you're running into different film thicknesses and compressability of the lubricant along side the surface finish variance of the projectile and inner neck. The percentage of 10 psi compared to the thousands of chamber pressure and pressure profile during jump I would venture to say is minimal when put next to other factors. As always that's a theory so it's probably mostly wrong and only somewhat useful like certain models.
Keith, not that it matters, but the yield point is further back near the elastic part of your diagram. The Ultimate Tensile Strength is where you showed that peak when the whole curve starts to go back down.
I recently spec'd my equipment trying to minimize work hardening (since I'm not annealing) but I hadn't considered the potential yielding inconsistencies you described when expanding/seating. I haven't had a chance to try out my new dies and expander yet, but I'll definitely keep an eye on the permanent size changes. Thanks for the great video!
Would the pressure of a K&N be similar to that of your 21ST Century press? And does it matter if you are at 25 or 50 just as long as it’s consistent? I anneal with an amp after every firing, size with a bushing .002 less than the diameter of the neck of a loaded and then use a mandrel .001 smaller than bullet size. I trim and chamfer with a Giraud and then proceed to brush the inside of the necks then seat the bullets. I think im getting consistency just from my velocities and group size but my seating forces on my K&N is a lot higher than 25 - reason I’m asking.
I use a bigger case like a 30-06 cut off about an inch with a 10-32 screw in primer hole then stuffed with steel wool. Spin the case with a drill and buff the neck of your brass.
I shoot all of my mid range 6mm F Class rifles with .002" neck tension. i turn the necks and use the proper bushing to get me a little under that when resizing then i use a mandrell die to get to .241 . I also ordered a .241 carbide chucking reamer, i run the chucking reamer into each neck to make sure we are at .241" and cut out any donuts with the reamer. i am usually able to do so by turning the reamer with my fingers. the consistency on my K&M arbor press gauge has increased dramatically since doing so groups are smaller and X count is higher. Any tight cases are marked and used for sighters. for case/neck lube i have been using anhydrous lanolin it works way better than imperial sizing wax and it's $18 a pound and a pound will last a real long time and it's great for your dry hands at the same time. thanks for the videos.
I like to dip my necks into a mix of graphite powder and alcohol, a plastic lid about 1/2inch deep, then stand them on a nail stand for 50 bullets, so the alchol evaporates and leaves a film of graphite. I think it works well, what are your thoughts Keith?
Keith, you mentioned that you do not want perfectly clean brass on the inside of the necks. What do you do for new brass then? New brass is virtually clean brass. Thanks!
what would be a good brand sizing die and what brand bushings? also what expanders and expander die? need to change my set up so I can get more consistent the dies I bought getting into this are not great they were all I could actually get at the time.
I just followed your instructions, and lubed the bullets before seating, I sized em for 2 thou neck tension. And it shot 0.333 moa straight away, its just a ruger american in a MDT chassis, ok the barrel is a custom😁 thank you for the pointer with the lube.
I've been thinking of trying mandrel sizing, but so far haven't jumped in. I use a Whidden bushing die and load up 10 of each size then shoot them at the range, smallest group is the bushing I use. That's about it. Depending on my barrel, it's always 1/4 to 1/3 MOA for my 284 Shehane and Dasher.
lou murdica uses moly dry lube in his cases to get consistent neck tension and bullet release from what ive seen. can you maybe speak on that in a video or possibly comment on your experiences if youve used this moly lube?
Hmmm interesting. Have you tried resizing the case neck 2x using a quarter turn of the brass. Seems to reduce run out when measured on a concentricity gauge. I haven’t tested but I’d guess it would also make brass spring back less allowing for more consistent neck tensions. It may wear brass faster but this has helped my handloading a-lot.
I've heard it said; "there are no dumb questions" well here's my attempt. When conducting steps including neck expansion and bullet seating, how is lubrication handled? Seems two different applications and two different types lube would assure the inside case necks to be correctly applied. Thanks
For me, it depends on the final destination of the ammunition. For anything other than F-class, I don't lube the necks before seating the bullet. When I expand necks, I do it with the residual sizing lube on the case. Hope this helps -
@@winninginthewind Not an F-class shooter but one that enjoys shooting small groups this does help. Seems metal to metal contact could play a roll in accuracy. Regardless, thanks for all your help.
No sir. I learned it a couple years ago It works for me and yes I shower daily. The natural oil from healthy hair is enough to coat brass that has been wet tumbled and dried. Not sure about walnut shell media.
@@winninginthewind I'm at 0.0015 and I'm getting some soot at the case neck, shoulders and sometimes body. I'm trying to get a higher powder node, but was thinking to increase neck tension as well. I will then change from a 0.335 bushing to a 0.334. Thank You.
I’ve seen a ton of neck tension videos. This was the best! One thing… I have always seated bullets into whistle clean brass. I’m hesitant to add another process unless it’s worth it. It’s worth lubing case necks before seating?
Yes. Not just seating force (protecting what you created in your brass) but the release as well. Clean brass and copper tend to “cold weld” or stick after a given period of time. Seat your bullets long one time then go back after a few days or a week and seat them to spec. The pressures will vary. There will be a distinct spike in seating pressure before the bullets move in comparison.
Maybe. It depends on what you see on your target with your loads. For me, lubing does change some things, and a load tune up is in order if you start lubing on a load that was tuned without. What I find is that I can reseat with precision, and get better seating precision with lube. It's also a bit easier for me than brushing.
Thanks Man Great video very informative , I have found neck tension a very important part of my brass prep , l always set my .308w at .002” after years of test going to .005” the difference is huge and can alter POI at 500 yards by as much as 1/8 MOA , I love and look forward to your videos keep em coming Mate , Aussie Steve
I'm struggling with the necessity of having lubricant to prevent dry (or clean) brass-bullet contact. My impression is that competitive shooters run relatively low neck tension/compression/squeeze compared to say, hunters, and you have a target bullet seating force that you've found that gives you best accuracy. To me, the whole idea is to find a consistent level of tension that is repeatable, maintainable, as well as accurate. This is extremely important to the hunting community when ammunition is transported or loaded in a magazine, since we never want the bullets to move until fired. The most surefire way to do that is by crimping, which obviously compresses the bullet more than the friction between the smooth, clean surfaces of the bullet and inside neck of the brass, so in this case, is there really anything wrong with avoiding neck lube in hunting or tactical ammunition? Thanks.
If you don’t use Moly or some kind of “neck lube” you could run the risk of something called cold weld. That’s where the copper from the bullet and brass form a molecular bond together. This will cause inconsistent pressures and velocities.
Bummer I was hoping you had advice on how to get my neck to stop hurting while in the prone... I must be doing something wrong but i need to find a cure ....thanks
After 50 years of hunting in cold and wet conditions , shooting prone is a distant dream !
Watching Keith shooting prone competitions makes me envious … his groups make me drool !
Try testifying against Bill Clinton!
"Now, if this is new information for you, you might need some more life experiences."
(Ha!)
Sleeping on a bad pillow gave me pretty consistent neck tension.
@1:35 I freaking lost it, I did not expect that. Awesome video btw.
I had tears in my eyes, from both sides of that statement.
Good to see great information mixed with wit and sense of humor.
Keith, can you expand on (get the pun?) on how you use “neo lube #2”?
Hello Keith and I am a new subscriber. These points are intriguing and compelling! If I have learned nothing in the vast sea of reloading wisdom, at least I've learned the importance of consistency in every detail. I think this video really drills that one. I look forward to seeing more how-to videos. Thank you for the time, effort, and expense in producing them!
Dang... you are giving away my best prep secrets reserved for the best accuracy. I use 0000 steel wool though. Things I have been doing for years.
Very good presentation.
I bet if youd kept drawing a camel would've appeared.
Change your eye focus, you'll se it! (ha!)
Great Video Keith, one point/query. I keep my brass in lots, anneal (AMP), resize with die without expander, and then follow up with a Mandrel, but I get better ES/SD if I clean my brass again after the resizing process (15 min in water bath), before charging the case and seating the Bullet. This gives me a clean Brass/Copper interface, which you suggest should be avoided, so I am a bit confused!
I am firing the rounds within a week or two of reloading so don't know if the comment made in an earlier post by Wyatt apply?
Appreciate any feedback
Thanks again
one time, i brushed my necks with a 9mm bronze brush (but chucked on a drill, gave it a good buzz) and i seated all my bullets long, everything went fine until i went to seat them to final depth and they were all effectively welded in place. crushed 80 shoulders out of 150 pieces. took a lot of time to recover from that and lost 68 bullets to ogive damage. learned a lot that day.
I wet tumble in stainless media every firing myself. I use Hornady One Shot Case Lube to lube bullets prior to seating as well. With clean necks, lube is a must.
Hey man. Love yer vids. Super helpful. Don't know if u have it but I'll search your vids more closely but I'd love to see a full start to finish on reloading 223. Every step. What you use. Methods. The whole works. Even what brand of coffee you drink while doing it
I just watched this video on neck tension for the second time. You stated perfectly clean brass on bullet creates variables, and my first thought went to new factory rounds and my second thoughts were the brass coming from these newer wet tumblers. Should we not in general be getting the necks wet tumbler clean? Or should we be using a lubricant? Just really curious. Thank you for all this insight.
I make my mandrel .002 under but I use graphite impregnated brass . I have used for 500 rounds and still no wearing measured on the mandrel. Smooth sailing.
@Winning in the Wind. Actually for years, folks have been describing or using the WRONG TERM. It is NOT TENSION, but COMPRESSION that the case neck is exerting upon the bearing surface of the bullet....btw, I am a degreed engineer and shooter as well!
Thank you for the input. You are absolutely correct! Using "commonly misused terms" is just part of the job... Did my definitions in the beginning of the video communicate what I was talking about well? I felt like I needed to describe it in that way to make sure we were all talking about the same thing.
@@winninginthewind, fully understand! Yes, the net result is very similar once the force to overcome the compression of the case neck upon the bullet's surface is attained. Similar to tension in that a force is "applied" to release the load. I always remembered tension as a weight suspended by a string. Whereas compression is the force that is being exerted by a weight upon another object. Btw, I do enjoy your explanation on matters of shooting and reloading. Thank you, 💯🇺🇲💥
Has any one roll sized the bullets.
Is inconsistent bullet roundness possible?
Another good one Keith . Been reloading for 50 years . Thought I’d tried everything . Might be a spike in Johnsons wax sales soon !!
It's nasty stuff it's got Benzene in it it makes great bullet lube, use in a well ventilated area...
I'm soon to graduate as a ME. For the topic at hand I think you certainly got the point across. Something to consider is consistent neck thickness. Differing thicknesses will result in differing resistances and interference forces. Given that you lubricate and see different seating pressures I'd say you're running into different film thicknesses and compressability of the lubricant along side the surface finish variance of the projectile and inner neck. The percentage of 10 psi compared to the thousands of chamber pressure and pressure profile during jump I would venture to say is minimal when put next to other factors. As always that's a theory so it's probably mostly wrong and only somewhat useful like certain models.
Keith, not that it matters, but the yield point is further back near the elastic part of your diagram. The Ultimate Tensile Strength is where you showed that peak when the whole curve starts to go back down.
I recently spec'd my equipment trying to minimize work hardening (since I'm not annealing) but I hadn't considered the potential yielding inconsistencies you described when expanding/seating. I haven't had a chance to try out my new dies and expander yet, but I'll definitely keep an eye on the permanent size changes. Thanks for the great video!
Keep them all the same number of firings, and everything will go well.
Solid content, keep it up! Subbed
This is great. It feeds the side of me that's on the spectrum.
Would the pressure of a K&N be similar to that of your 21ST Century press? And does it matter if you are at 25 or 50 just as long as it’s consistent? I anneal with an amp after every firing, size with a bushing .002 less than the diameter of the neck of a loaded and then use a mandrel .001 smaller than bullet size. I trim and chamfer with a Giraud and then proceed to brush the inside of the necks then seat the bullets. I think im getting consistency just from my velocities and group size but my seating forces on my K&N is a lot higher than 25 - reason I’m asking.
I've never worked with the K&M press. I don't know how it reads in relation.
"More life experiences" that made me laugh
I fell over laughing...
I use a bigger case like a 30-06 cut off about an inch with a 10-32 screw in primer hole then stuffed with steel wool. Spin the case with a drill and buff the neck of your brass.
I shoot all of my mid range 6mm F Class rifles with .002" neck tension. i turn the necks and use the proper bushing to get me a little under that when resizing then i use a mandrell die to get to .241 . I also ordered a .241 carbide chucking reamer, i run the chucking reamer into each neck to make sure we are at .241" and cut out any donuts with the reamer. i am usually able to do so by turning the reamer with my fingers. the consistency on my K&M arbor press gauge has increased dramatically since doing so groups are smaller and X count is higher. Any tight cases are marked and used for sighters. for case/neck lube i have been using anhydrous lanolin it works way better than imperial sizing wax and it's $18 a pound and a pound will last a real long time and it's great for your dry hands at the same time. thanks for the videos.
I like to dip my necks into a mix of graphite powder and alcohol, a plastic lid about 1/2inch deep, then stand them on a nail stand for 50 bullets, so the alchol evaporates and leaves a film of graphite. I think it works well, what are your thoughts Keith?
good video if you cant measure positively or negatively at the range what good is all of this prep respectfully asking...
Hey, that was awesome. I thought I was being very clever with my process, but now I see room for significant improvement! Thank you!!
And bushing dies? Why change the size when running it over the same size expander ball? Doesnt the expander ball have to be matched?
Keith, you mentioned that you do not want perfectly clean brass on the inside of the necks. What do you do for new brass then? New brass is virtually clean brass. Thanks!
Like you work Keith. Keep it going please. Learning much from your channel. Thank you.
So I need to coat my bullets. You said bare brass on bullet surface wasn't good
what would be a good brand sizing die and what brand bushings? also what expanders and expander die? need to change my set up so I can get more consistent the dies I bought getting into this are not great they were all I could actually get at the time.
I use a homemade mix of graphite powder&99% medical grade alcohol applied with a bore mop on the case neck.
I just followed your instructions, and lubed the bullets before seating, I sized em for 2 thou neck tension. And it shot 0.333 moa straight away, its just a ruger american in a MDT chassis, ok the barrel is a custom😁 thank you for the pointer with the lube.
I've been thinking of trying mandrel sizing, but so far haven't jumped in. I use a Whidden bushing die and load up 10 of each size then shoot them at the range, smallest group is the bushing I use. That's about it. Depending on my barrel, it's always 1/4 to 1/3 MOA for my 284 Shehane and Dasher.
Wouldn’t crimping a bullet give better consistency?
So if I lube the inside of the neck before I mandrel size ,do I clean out the lube? And how would that be done ? thanks
lou murdica uses moly dry lube in his cases to get consistent neck tension and bullet release from what ive seen. can you maybe speak on that in a video or possibly comment on your experiences if youve used this moly lube?
I had a hard time hearing what lube you use during neck sizing?
Hmmm interesting. Have you tried resizing the case neck 2x using a quarter turn of the brass. Seems to reduce run out when measured on a concentricity gauge. I haven’t tested but I’d guess it would also make brass spring back less allowing for more consistent neck tensions. It may wear brass faster but this has helped my handloading a-lot.
Yes I have, however, I found no benefit to the technique. I get the same result with a single pass.
Very informative. Much appreciated"
Excellent information, well done, thank you
Another great video, thanks! Some good ideas I can try.
I use a fl Redding sizing die. Do I need to add a neck bushing or can I use an expander mandrel instead or both?? Thanks fro a newbie.
Need, no. You might want to to get that last 0.01% of performance, but there might be bigger fish to fry first.
How does Redding imperial dry neck lube perform for this task?
Just got some to try. Video coming in about a month...
Great Report .
Thank You .
Thanks Keith! Keep em coming!
I've heard it said; "there are no dumb questions" well here's my attempt. When conducting steps including neck expansion and bullet seating, how is lubrication handled? Seems two different applications and two different types lube would assure the inside case necks to be correctly applied. Thanks
For me, it depends on the final destination of the ammunition. For anything other than F-class, I don't lube the necks before seating the bullet. When I expand necks, I do it with the residual sizing lube on the case. Hope this helps -
@@winninginthewind Not an F-class shooter but one that enjoys shooting small groups this does help. Seems metal to metal contact could play a roll in accuracy. Regardless, thanks for all your help.
Hey Kieth. Ever consider using the oil in your hair? Comb your hair w/a plastic neck brush to lube the inside neck? 🤔
I assume that's sarcasm....
No sir. I learned it a couple years ago It works for me and yes I shower daily. The natural oil from healthy hair is enough to coat brass that has been wet tumbled and dried. Not sure about walnut shell media.
Great info!
What would you consider to be an adequate neck tension for a .308WIN F-class rifle, with unturned Lapua brass?
I start at .002 interference fit, and adjust from there.
@@winninginthewind I'm at 0.0015 and I'm getting some soot at the case neck, shoulders and sometimes body. I'm trying to get a higher powder node, but was thinking to increase neck tension as well. I will then change from a 0.335 bushing to a 0.334. Thank You.
🙏
I’ve seen a ton of neck tension videos. This was the best! One thing… I have always seated bullets into whistle clean brass. I’m hesitant to add another process unless it’s worth it. It’s worth lubing case necks before seating?
Do as you please but imo that’s just tolerance stacking, how consistently can you lube? Also it doesn’t affect neck tension just seating force.
Yes. Not just seating force (protecting what you created in your brass) but the release as well. Clean brass and copper tend to “cold weld” or stick after a given period of time. Seat your bullets long one time then go back after a few days or a week and seat them to spec. The pressures will vary. There will be a distinct spike in seating pressure before the bullets move in comparison.
Maybe. It depends on what you see on your target with your loads. For me, lubing does change some things, and a load tune up is in order if you start lubing on a load that was tuned without. What I find is that I can reseat with precision, and get better seating precision with lube. It's also a bit easier for me than brushing.
Thanks Man
Great video very informative , I have found neck tension a very important part of my brass prep , l always set my .308w at .002” after years of test going to .005” the difference is huge and can alter POI at 500 yards by as much as 1/8 MOA , I love and look forward to your videos keep em coming Mate , Aussie Steve
There is so much contradiction going on here I think you might need some more life experience.
I'm struggling with the necessity of having lubricant to prevent dry (or clean) brass-bullet contact. My impression is that competitive shooters run relatively low neck tension/compression/squeeze compared to say, hunters, and you have a target bullet seating force that you've found that gives you best accuracy. To me, the whole idea is to find a consistent level of tension that is repeatable, maintainable, as well as accurate. This is extremely important to the hunting community when ammunition is transported or loaded in a magazine, since we never want the bullets to move until fired. The most surefire way to do that is by crimping, which obviously compresses the bullet more than the friction between the smooth, clean surfaces of the bullet and inside neck of the brass, so in this case, is there really anything wrong with avoiding neck lube in hunting or tactical ammunition? Thanks.
If you don’t use Moly or some kind of “neck lube” you could run the risk of something called cold weld. That’s where the copper from the bullet and brass form a molecular bond together. This will cause inconsistent pressures and velocities.
1 thou for me lol
How do I send you a video
What is the subject? You can post it on TH-cam and send me a link.
@@winninginthewind what about messenger of facebook
I don't use Facebook. What is the video about?