“”toby is apart of hr, so hes not really apart of our family... hes also divorced so hes really not even apart of his family" -michael scott“ - @spiderboi325
@@spiderboi325 It makes a big distinction, apart instead of a part makes your comment mean almost the opposite of what you’re saying, but I get what you meant. It’s a good quote!
I've always loved seeing good actors play bad actors. Michael Richards (Cosmo Kramer) did this in an episode or two of Seinfeld. Even when Oscar tried his 'Savanna accent character'... Steve Carrell couldn't handle it lol.
I just don't get why they had to eventually make everyone else start to hate Toby, too. He was actually pretty popular with the rest of the office in the early seasons, then they just made him a complete joke to everyone
I always felt bad for Toby. He certainly didn't deserve the derision he received. His life and luck were crappy enough without it. Michael (and eventually others,) hated him, but I never did. As a victim of workplace harassment (and bad luck,) myself, I often sympathized with him.
I’m actually surprised that people are saying Michael and Toby’s dynamic didn’t make any sense in the show. It made perfect sense to me. Michael is a walking HR nightmare. In any other normal office, Michael would have been fired for even just a fraction of the problematic things he said and did throughout the course of his time on the show. Michael hates rules and hates being bored. It’s literally Toby’s job to be boring, keep tabs on Michael’s behavior and censor Michael so that he’s abiding by the code of conduct, which Michael sees as Toby stifling his humor and killing the “morale” in the office. It’s no different than Michael’s dynamic with Charles Miner, who basically comes in to shut Michael’s antics down and enforce the rules. That’s what makes it so funny when Toby’s temporary replacement in HR, Holly, turns out to be the love of his life. Talk about a plot twist ❤
I always got the sense that Micheal projected his insecurities/fears onto Toby and projected his delusions of grandeur onto Ryan. That's why he's so irrational when dealing with them
Ya sort of what narcissistic do ,selecting golden child /blacksheep in a family dynamic.He seems to be projecting his ego onto Ryan and his shadow on Toby .
Yeah, Ryan's the kid the parents wants to see in the idealized vision of what they wish they'd been or could be, so they project that sort of perfect identity. Toby represents everything that Michael wants to NOT be, or maybe the inevitability of the nature of what the reality of his job is (Toby acts like a boring office worker and Michael wants to be EVERYTHING he sees as fun or inspiring, but NOT be stuffy or conventional) - I felt that way in school. I'm an ADHD'er and once it became clear I did not have the sorts of accommodations or help I needed at school, I began to resent the very idea of rules or structure or anytime I felt silenced or criticized... I think it's not so much TOBY himself but what Toby triggers within Michael. I don't see Michael as a MEAN person, and sadly I relate a lot to Michael - I've felt very lonely in my life, I'm an odd character, I wanna have fun all the time, I'm on the "spectrum" so sometimes I can maybe be a bit misguided though I mean well... people like me are gonna butt heads with anyone we feel is trying to "persecute" or " constrict" us, or censor us. I think that's what's going on between them. Toby's just doing his job but Michael resents what that entails.
The fact that Toby being the perfect antithesis to Michael was from an ad lib just makes that more hilarious to me. Since it's never brought up in the actual series, we as viewers are led to believe that Michael's hatred of Toby just gradually becomes more and more visible made even more ironic that he's the only office worker that he can't fire. It also adds to the irony that Michael marries Toby's replacement Holly while Toby ends the series single and fired. So, in a weird way, Michael still wins.
Of all the things in The Office that feels so much forced and unrealistic this is the one I can believe. Toby is like Michael's nany telling him he can't run around with scissors. I can honestely believe he would have Toby.
And the show plays off it so well when it introduces Holly. Michael thinks he hates HR because of Toby, but when he meets Holly, it totally changes his mind. That change is not possible without Michael hating Toby
I think what would have made Michael and Toby's dynamic perfect was if at some point in the series, Michaels father shows up and he happens to be of Toby's exact personality. It could have explained so much
I like that idea. I don't think it's boring or generic, it would've explained Michael's character more so we could understand him better as a person, and those scenes are the intriguing ones to me.
Very interesting. The one thing not mentioned in this is that Toby being HR is also fairly important. Yes, he is corporate and can't be fired, but it is also his literal job description to stop Michael's ideas of fun. I think that is why most of us just assumed this was fully intentional. As anyone who has worked in an office can probably attest, take anyone who has worked in an office, describe the Michael character to them, and then ask, "Okay, now who is the person most likely to be their enemy within this building" and I'd say 9 times out of 10, the answer would be the HR person, whether fair or not. HR, at least in the US, has a certain "thou shalt not" type of feel to it; it is the principal's office of the workplace and the last place anyone wants to go to and yet, it is the place where Michael pretty much lives with his antics.
@@abbszHe does, but not to highlight exactly how important that position is to this storyline. As I implied in my comment, in the US, HR is not always liked and for a character like Michael, this is even more so. Suppose Toby was a corporate employee but not HR; maybe he is part of a centralized travel office that deals with reimbursements for sales staff visiting customers. (I'm making this up for an example so please just go with it.) Even though it would be a "corporate" position and one Michael couldn't fire, do you think we'd get the same reaction? Maybe, but it would take some backstory about the person denying and scrutinizing Michael's expense forms when Michael was in sales. Instead, by being HR, we the viewer don't NEED that backstory! We can see Michael's behavior and we know, as office workers ourselves, that yep, HR is definitely going to have a problem with this guy! Thus his role being HR is important in that it eliminates the need for explanation; the position itself IS the conflict source. Hopefully that makes sense. The two actors play these roles beautifully and it is just amazing how well this antagonism works that came up spur of the moment.
@@donovanfaust3227 Would it help if I changed it to "offhandedly mentioned" cause honestly, my point is that Toby being HR is not just a throwaway job title; it enables the entire dynamic. As I said in another comment, had Toby occupied a different job position, I don't think the gag works without actual setup by the writers. However, him being HR, they can shorthand, at least for US audiences, WHY Michael would hate him! That part isn't mentioned in this video. Yes, that Toby is HR is stated in the video, but not that him being HR is a NECESSARY component to this relationship working as it did - especially if you never saw that deleted scene!
I always felt so bad for Toby. I used to be bullied a lot when I was a kid, and it just reminded me of what it felt like seeing him be treated that way.
what a brilliant video. so many important things here. the fact that they improvised it, and went with it even tho the scene was deleted is amazing. a writer that acts to understand better the dynamics of the actors is very important.
i miss old nerdstalgic. I feel like it used to be one guy writing passionate videos about film. Now it feels like screen rant. Bland script, new voice actor. Feels like a company now more than just a guy like it used to
Original Nerdstalgic was so good, I hope he at least made bank selling the channel. If he made another channel after and anyone knows its name I would love to know.
You are correct, Toby is the person that Michael never wants to be...the loneliness of life makes people depressed.... Michael never wanted to feel that way ....so he kept speaking rubbish...made fun of people in the most cringey way...but deep inside he knows how hard it is to survive like this.. Toby's depressed face reminds Michael of all the pain he kept in his heart... By hating him it makes him feel in a better way to fight with life...
It definitely felt like a very natural dynamic. It makes sense, from a writing standpoint, that they'd want to have this counterbalance force to the wacky boss, and who's better to be that than an HR person that the boss doesn't technically have authority over? The fact that it was an acting decision that Steve Carell made on the spot is just a testament to how talented and how crafted of an actor the man truly is, which he has certainly proved time and again just in this show alone.
Michael considers his office workers as his family members and he is quite on the narcisstic spectrum.He has good relationship with all,jim /ryan are the golden child and toby is the family scapegoat/blacksheep (,who is always quiet,empathetic, nice ,sensitive,kind of tolerates just to not cause conflict).Michael just projects all his shadow side onto toby if we analyse him .This happens a lot in a narcissistic family dynamics.
I liked Toby at first because he seemed like a nice normal guy, the turning point for me was when he started being weird around Jim and Pam, the thigh stroking scene comes to mind. It showed me he wasn’t really a nice guy and went behind Jim’s back to get him fired.
I mean, Tony clearly made a mistake in that moment and responded to it by completely removing himself from the situation and then moving briefly to Jamaica. Also Toby did Jim a huge favor by ignoring years of mostly valid HR Complaints against him.
I alway saw Toby as the father figure, the law enforcer without being strict or intimidating and Michael was this rebel kid that felt respressed around him, so he was always was rude to him because Michael is a very insecure inmature man that rarely wants to work. But the point about proyecting himself on toby also explains a lot
It’s hilarious because it’s so accurate of corporate life. A lot of people who complain about HR are the inept colleagues who everyone else has suffer through.
I love how collaborative this show was. It was an incredible great decision Greg Daniels made (incredible because usually creators don't like people messing with their ideas) and that made the show so unique.
A great example is how Toby played off of Michael in that first scene. Michael tells him to get some white out. Toby could have left, I mean he isn’t used to doing improv live on camera on a network television show. But he stood there and looked at the desk tried to think of something to work with. He says, there’s white out, and Steve carell doesn’t miss a beat and says get your own white out, showing that Michael is just trying to flex on him. 😂
In hindsight it seems like such a natural choice.. hr is the only position that can’t be fired, the only position that is required to stand up to Michael, the only position that has a relationship with his higher ups. It makes perfect sense that Michael low key tries to undermine Toby at every turn. But it wasn’t written into the show, it goes back to what Toby said, Steve Carell doesn’t miss a thing when doing improv. He could sense that power dynamic and drew it out.
I’ve always wondered if the actors were best of friends in real life. I can’t seem to find any information on this. But most of the time when you have a nemesis on a sitcom, it turns out the two are actually really good friends.
I've been listening to the DVD commentaries for the first time, and I will say - I have noticed that Paul Lieberstein always gets a TON of love from everybody, he seems very popular. Which is funny cuz... Toby.
Toby is the employee who makes the series grounded in reality and keeps the office from turning dysfunctional. Characters like him are (unfairly) disliked and mistreated because most people tend to prefer the quirky and wild person that Michael is, even if he tends to be wrong and idiotic almost all the time. I think Toby's writing was handled poorly since he just doesn't deserve what happens to him.
It's about the world existing before we started watching. About making the world feel lived in. Of course Michael hates HR because it is always getting in the way of what he wants to do.
It always just made sense to me. Someone as offensive as Michael would definitely eternally struggle with HR 😂 He was ready to hate Holly too but she flirted with him so that changed things 😂😂
Michael is an amazing salesman because he first makes friends with his clients, then discusses business needs. It's much more easier to talk to someone about business if you have a relationship established already, compared to when you're meeting them for the first time. He lacks the ability to understand social cues and behaviours which is why he was heavily disliked due to his need to be liked and having everyone's attention to him.
It always seemed to me that Michael hated the fact that Toby divorced.. I mean, he had the chance to achieve what Michael craved most (a family) and, like, in Michael’s head, he threw it away… Also, I’d like to think Michael somehow had some sense about something wrong with Toby (i.e the Scranton Struggler)
Wow. I didn't realize how excellent Toby is as a mirror of Michael. No wonder Michael has such a fearful loathing toward him. It's comical, but so sad. Thank you for another interesting video. God be with you out there everybody. ✝️ :)
I don't know if I remember correctly but I think at some point we learnt that Michael's parents got divorced and that was supposed to be the reason why he hates Toby so much: because he is a divorcée who "ruined his family"
Ive had bosses like this. Bosses who just couldnt stand me no matter what i did. Thier bosses loved me so they couldnt do anything but they always found something to be irritated with me about.
Adding on to the gag, when Jim's interviewing for the management position with Wallace at the end of season 3, the latter warns the former that the only person Jim's not going to like at corporate is the head of HR, implying that managers will forever be at odds with HR.
Michael's not the only one who hates Toby. I've worked with HR reps and their "unbiasedness" for the last 16 years. Never once seen them side against management. Toby's right. HR is a joke.
I have seen the show about 6 times. The only person that truly hates Toby is Michael. Most of the other characters actually like Toby. Even Pam admitted that she used to like him.
The brilliance of Steve Carrell to automatically assume that there’s a huge rift between “the FUN Manager” and Corporate’s HR Rep. is sheer genius. It’s no wonder that people can love, hate and relate to this dynamic all these years later…
I strongly disagree with a description that is constantly underlined for the whole video: there is no mutual hatred, but just a one way feeling. Michael expresses his hate towards Toby throughout the whole show and Toby basically never reacts or at least never gets mad.
A great thing about the Office was how they never softened up Michael's disdain for Toby at all like a lesser show would have likely done or tried to make them connect at some point and become buds. I love that scene when Toby was trying to have a heart to heart with Michael and they were eating together at that conference and Michael shoves his tray of food off of the table in disgust. I remember watching that scene when it first aired and just laughing my ass off.
There is an episode when Michael see David Wallace saying something about hating his own HR guy. I aways thought that since Michael wanted to be like David Wallace, he would hate his own HR guy too.
I always felt that Michael hated him because Michael thinks of the office as his own private little fiefdom, and he outranks everybody. Except Toby. Because Toby is HR he's the only one who can override Michael, and tell him what he can and cannot do. If Michael pushes things too far Toby can report Michael's actions to corporate, and Michael knows it. And hates it.
And Michael's hatred of Toby is a prime example of how selfish and narcissistic Michael is. Toby is not a bad guy in any way. The only bad thing you could say about him is that he's boring. But Michael uses that as a reason to hate him because he thinks of himself as being an incredibly fun and cool 'boss' and everybody's friend and that only Toby is constantly preventing him from being this. But Michael isn't those things. At all. Michael is just childish, immature, petty, selfish, egotistical, self-deluding, and narcissistic. And he has power over other people. Consequently Michael is more hated by most everyone in the office much much more so than Toby is! Dwight is just a sycophant, and Michael knows it. Ryan saw Michael as nothing more than a way to advance in the company and used him that way, although Michael thinks he was his mentor. All the other executives think he's kind of a pathetic joke, and some mock and bully him, although Michael thinks it's 'camaraderie'. Angela, Kelly, Stanley, Jan, and all the guys in the warehouse genuinely hate him. And Jim, Pam, Erin, Darryl, Andy, Oscar, Kevin, and Meredith all just find him amusing and pitiful at the same time, although Michael thinks he's their friend. And God knows what Creed thinks...
Michael coming from divorced parents makes his relationship with Toby, as a divorced father, more interesting. Maybe Michael blames Toby in a subconscious way for doing to Sasha what Michael's dad did to him
It's like me and my supervisor. We're both genuinely nice guys. But he's to by the books and i just go with the flow. Both of us work well to get the job done. But we butt heads on occasions.
I hate Toby. He stop Dwight and Andy from playing Country Road. Also he is lame to talk to or talk about. I want to have things fun and Toby makes it not that way. I hate, so much about things that Toby chooses to be.
Its funny how everyone laughs at the bullying Michael does to Toby, but it's painful to watch when either you've been through the same thing, or you know that others have been through it.
I honestly think Toby shows what an HR should actually be like. 1. Most incidents, Toby avoids escalating issue to higher ups. For example, Dwight's complain box against Jim. 2. Compared to Toby, Holly was actually the worst HR. The fact that she didn't kept Meridith's secret about her sleeping with their clients confidential and actually reporting her to higher ups basically shows it.
"Perpetually neglecting actual business in favor of doing things that are fun or exciting. At least what they think is fun and exciting". You literally just described the entire dream model of modern influencers who, as Robert California so aptly put it, produce nothing. Cause and effect? Who knows? What's true is Michael was prophetically ahead of his time.
It would've been interesting to see what the office would've looked like if Toby had become the manager when Micheal left. In the first season it would'nt have worked because Toby probably would've ran things relatively effectively and that would be boring, but by the later seasons everyone in the office had adapted to having Micheal Scott as their boss and the chaos could've come from that place of Toby trying to fix what Michael had ultimately changed in everyone (maybe even including him?).
Lmao I don’t think actors not getting credit for the characters they play has EVER been a problem. In fact it’s more likely to find an actor complaining the public will come up to them and treat them like they ARE that character.
I always see Toby as Michael's "scapegoat," like in dysfunctional families. Someone takes all the misdirected blame, even if totally irrational. (Parks & Rec did it hilariously, too, with Jerry.) Michael is so unfulfilled in life...all because of Toby. Lol.
I always imagined that Michael initially liked or wanted to like Toby, but over time Toby’s demeanor and interference with his ideas caused Michael to despise him. I think we saw the start of that process when Jim was manager for a day and Toby started to get on his nerves. We also saw multiple times that Michael does not respond well to being undermined in his office, since he fought with Ryan, Charles, and Jim when they vetoed his ideas. I think the key difference is Tobys demeanor/personality just fundamentally irritates Michael in a way that makes him personally hate Toby more.
Does anyone remember the episode where they had to decide who got the salary bonuses? We never knew who got it. Same happened in a previous episode that didn't have an ending
With the right actor for the role, the character can become so much more than what was put on paper. I think, for example, RDJ being cast as Iron Man was one of the best decisions made for Marvel. He became his character so wholefully, I don't think anyone else considered at the time could have paved the way like RDJ did. Just like Carell was probably the best choice to play Michael Scott, I don't know if anyone else could have pulled it off. I think back to the footage of Eric Stoltz as Marty in Back to the Future and how he just didn't have the right chemistry for the role. Some remakes have the same issue where the actor hired just doesn't bring the same life to the character. So if they did try to remake Back to the Future, for example, I doubt they could recapture the magic of the original
I do think it's interesting how Michael tried to frame Toby for drugs, but realized how screwed up it was and was willing to be arrested in his place. That doesn't excuse what he did, but it clearly shows that Michael greatly dislikes Toby, but wouldn't go as far as to destroy his life like that.
I thought it had something to do with Toby possibly being the Scranton Strangler and Michael basically being a dumb golden retriever. He doesn’t know WHAT is wrong, just that something IS wrong.
Was this really needed to be analyzed? It's really not that complex of a relationship. Michael hates Toby because it's Toby's job to be the voice of reason in a very unconventional office. Toby's only trying to do his job, but Michael, being the immature man-child that he is, thinks that Toby only gets in his way because he's mean and boring and he just hates fun. And Toby doesn't really hate Michael. He actually tried to become friends with him on several occasions in the show.
Office Movie idea: dark comedy (Joker but More) from Toby's perspective of Michael and how he has a weird beautiful connection with everyone in the office Except him and the verbal and psychological aBuse Toby puts up with that takes him to the Brink of inSanity and gives him a DrJekyll and MrHyde complex that turns him into the Scranton Strangler. Eventually he realizes that He is the Scranton Stranger. Has to go to Costa Rica. Composes himself. Then Returns safe but disillusioned yet Comitted now. End on montage of Toby After Michael.
In my perspective Michael hates Toby so much because he didn't want to end up like him Loser, sad, divorce away from his child and living alone Its like yin and yang with chaotic twist
"toby is apart of hr, so hes not really apart of our family... hes also divorced so hes really not even apart of his family" -michael scott
A part, not apart. Two different meanings 😁
@@WS12658 ☝️🤓
@@spiderboi325hes just correcting ur mistake no need to be an ass
“”toby is apart of hr, so hes not really apart of our family... hes also divorced so hes really not even apart of his family" -michael scott“ - @spiderboi325
@@spiderboi325 It makes a big distinction, apart instead of a part makes your comment mean almost the opposite of what you’re saying, but I get what you meant. It’s a good quote!
"I would shoot Toby twice" is one of the best scenes ever... this relationship was pure gold! 🤣🤣🤣
yes!!!! Michael and Toby are some of the best comedy characters ever. 😀😀
“You were being really funny and then you took it too far”
🤣🤣😂😂@@brianking2365
@@rutgervangestel True.
Nooooo the two bullets thing is a red herring
Just made me realize how good Steve is at improv and yet had to act really badly for Michael's actual improv class
I've always loved seeing good actors play bad actors. Michael Richards (Cosmo Kramer) did this in an episode or two of Seinfeld.
Even when Oscar tried his 'Savanna accent character'... Steve Carrell couldn't handle it lol.
BOOM! Detective Michael Scarn!!
and also the film crew pretending to be amateur.
When you know how to do good improv, you know what bad improv looks like.
I just don't get why they had to eventually make everyone else start to hate Toby, too.
He was actually pretty popular with the rest of the office in the early seasons, then they just made him a complete joke to everyone
I always felt bad for Toby. He certainly didn't deserve the derision he received. His life and luck were crappy enough without it. Michael (and eventually others,) hated him, but I never did. As a victim of workplace harassment (and bad luck,) myself, I often sympathized with him.
Toby literally became a bigger sour puss as the show went on. They didn't force everyone to hate him, it just made sense.
Unfortunately, towards the later season most characters became caricatures of themselves, just like Michael predicted.
My God, @angusmcphail7031 NOT NOW!!!!
@@flefly That's Flanderization for you. Or in Toby's case, Flendersonaztion?
I’m actually surprised that people are saying Michael and Toby’s dynamic didn’t make any sense in the show. It made perfect sense to me. Michael is a walking HR nightmare. In any other normal office, Michael would have been fired for even just a fraction of the problematic things he said and did throughout the course of his time on the show.
Michael hates rules and hates being bored. It’s literally Toby’s job to be boring, keep tabs on Michael’s behavior and censor Michael so that he’s abiding by the code of conduct, which Michael sees as Toby stifling his humor and killing the “morale” in the office. It’s no different than Michael’s dynamic with Charles Miner, who basically comes in to shut Michael’s antics down and enforce the rules. That’s what makes it so funny when Toby’s temporary replacement in HR, Holly, turns out to be the love of his life. Talk about a plot twist ❤
Toby should've had an actual hardass replace him who wouldn't have taken any shit from Michael
I always got the sense that Micheal projected his insecurities/fears onto Toby and projected his delusions of grandeur onto Ryan. That's why he's so irrational when dealing with them
Ya sort of what narcissistic do ,selecting golden child /blacksheep in a family dynamic.He seems to be projecting his ego onto Ryan and his shadow on Toby .
Yeah, Ryan's the kid the parents wants to see in the idealized vision of what they wish they'd been or could be, so they project that sort of perfect identity. Toby represents everything that Michael wants to NOT be, or maybe the inevitability of the nature of what the reality of his job is (Toby acts like a boring office worker and Michael wants to be EVERYTHING he sees as fun or inspiring, but NOT be stuffy or conventional) - I felt that way in school. I'm an ADHD'er and once it became clear I did not have the sorts of accommodations or help I needed at school, I began to resent the very idea of rules or structure or anytime I felt silenced or criticized... I think it's not so much TOBY himself but what Toby triggers within Michael. I don't see Michael as a MEAN person, and sadly I relate a lot to Michael - I've felt very lonely in my life, I'm an odd character, I wanna have fun all the time, I'm on the "spectrum" so sometimes I can maybe be a bit misguided though I mean well... people like me are gonna butt heads with anyone we feel is trying to "persecute" or " constrict" us, or censor us. I think that's what's going on between them. Toby's just doing his job but Michael resents what that entails.
also i have noticed that he uses sezual jokes in order to escape from dealing with his own problems
That's a really good interpretation
The fact that Toby being the perfect antithesis to Michael was from an ad lib just makes that more hilarious to me. Since it's never brought up in the actual series, we as viewers are led to believe that Michael's hatred of Toby just gradually becomes more and more visible made even more ironic that he's the only office worker that he can't fire. It also adds to the irony that Michael marries Toby's replacement Holly while Toby ends the series single and fired. So, in a weird way, Michael still wins.
Of all the things in The Office that feels so much forced and unrealistic this is the one I can believe. Toby is like Michael's nany telling him he can't run around with scissors. I can honestely believe he would have Toby.
That’s literally the job of HR………and that’s the joke, it’s pushed to the most exaggerated level of what they do.
@@zedchillman2685 he agrees with you
this is the only thing you can believe? tf is forced
And the show plays off it so well when it introduces Holly. Michael thinks he hates HR because of Toby, but when he meets Holly, it totally changes his mind. That change is not possible without Michael hating Toby
It's very funny that the first thing Michael likes about Holly is that she also made fun of Toby 😂
I think what would have made Michael and Toby's dynamic perfect was if at some point in the series, Michaels father shows up and he happens to be of Toby's exact personality. It could have explained so much
Oh, I like that idea.
It would have been so boring and generic, glad they didn't
glad you’re not a writer 🙏🏻
@@iGaveLiaHIV i like the idea though, though sometime keep a mistery unexplained builds more intrigue
I like that idea. I don't think it's boring or generic, it would've explained Michael's character more so we could understand him better as a person, and those scenes are the intriguing ones to me.
Very interesting. The one thing not mentioned in this is that Toby being HR is also fairly important. Yes, he is corporate and can't be fired, but it is also his literal job description to stop Michael's ideas of fun. I think that is why most of us just assumed this was fully intentional. As anyone who has worked in an office can probably attest, take anyone who has worked in an office, describe the Michael character to them, and then ask, "Okay, now who is the person most likely to be their enemy within this building" and I'd say 9 times out of 10, the answer would be the HR person, whether fair or not. HR, at least in the US, has a certain "thou shalt not" type of feel to it; it is the principal's office of the workplace and the last place anyone wants to go to and yet, it is the place where Michael pretty much lives with his antics.
He does say that around 2:55
@@abbszHe does, but not to highlight exactly how important that position is to this storyline. As I implied in my comment, in the US, HR is not always liked and for a character like Michael, this is even more so. Suppose Toby was a corporate employee but not HR; maybe he is part of a centralized travel office that deals with reimbursements for sales staff visiting customers. (I'm making this up for an example so please just go with it.) Even though it would be a "corporate" position and one Michael couldn't fire, do you think we'd get the same reaction? Maybe, but it would take some backstory about the person denying and scrutinizing Michael's expense forms when Michael was in sales. Instead, by being HR, we the viewer don't NEED that backstory! We can see Michael's behavior and we know, as office workers ourselves, that yep, HR is definitely going to have a problem with this guy! Thus his role being HR is important in that it eliminates the need for explanation; the position itself IS the conflict source. Hopefully that makes sense. The two actors play these roles beautifully and it is just amazing how well this antagonism works that came up spur of the moment.
Because he didn't go into as much detail he never mentioned it? jfc
@@donovanfaust3227 Would it help if I changed it to "offhandedly mentioned" cause honestly, my point is that Toby being HR is not just a throwaway job title; it enables the entire dynamic. As I said in another comment, had Toby occupied a different job position, I don't think the gag works without actual setup by the writers. However, him being HR, they can shorthand, at least for US audiences, WHY Michael would hate him! That part isn't mentioned in this video. Yes, that Toby is HR is stated in the video, but not that him being HR is a NECESSARY component to this relationship working as it did - especially if you never saw that deleted scene!
bro thinks he lives in yappsville or something
Toby hopping the fence after accidentally grabbing Pam’s leg gets me every time
That late night lonelyness/thirst makes introvert dudes come in clean and express feelings😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
ahaha i forgot about that scene
Was it an accident?
I always felt so bad for Toby. I used to be bullied a lot when I was a kid, and it just reminded me of what it felt like seeing him be treated that way.
what a brilliant video. so many important things here.
the fact that they improvised it, and went with it even tho the scene was deleted is amazing.
a writer that acts to understand better the dynamics of the actors is very important.
its kind of like a dynamic between mirror actors. the one that kind of gave up and accepted who he is and the one always trying to change...
Shows that Steve Carrel was one of the most important writers
Toby didn’t hate Michael , he was always hoping Michael would like him
“Unending feud” that implies Tobey actively went to bat with Michael instead of just being harassed by michael
i miss old nerdstalgic. I feel like it used to be one guy writing passionate videos about film. Now it feels like screen rant. Bland script, new voice actor. Feels like a company now more than just a guy like it used to
Fr
That’s exactly what it is.
Don't forget coping other's content.
has this video been uploaded by someone else???? @@dashtoroya2838
Original Nerdstalgic was so good, I hope he at least made bank selling the channel. If he made another channel after and anyone knows its name I would love to know.
You are correct, Toby is the person that Michael never wants to be...the loneliness of life makes people depressed.... Michael never wanted to feel that way ....so he kept speaking rubbish...made fun of people in the most cringey way...but deep inside he knows how hard it is to survive like this..
Toby's depressed face reminds Michael of all the pain he kept in his heart...
By hating him it makes him feel in a better way to fight with life...
It definitely felt like a very natural dynamic. It makes sense, from a writing standpoint, that they'd want to have this counterbalance force to the wacky boss, and who's better to be that than an HR person that the boss doesn't technically have authority over? The fact that it was an acting decision that Steve Carell made on the spot is just a testament to how talented and how crafted of an actor the man truly is, which he has certainly proved time and again just in this show alone.
Michael considers his office workers as his family members and he is quite on the narcisstic spectrum.He has good relationship with all,jim /ryan are the golden child and toby is the family scapegoat/blacksheep (,who is always quiet,empathetic, nice ,sensitive,kind of tolerates just to not cause conflict).Michael just projects all his shadow side onto toby if we analyse him .This happens a lot in a narcissistic family dynamics.
I liked Toby at first because he seemed like a nice normal guy, the turning point for me was when he started being weird around Jim and Pam, the thigh stroking scene comes to mind. It showed me he wasn’t really a nice guy and went behind Jim’s back to get him fired.
I always remind people everything Toby said about Jim was true; he wanted a lot of time and realized it in Conflict Resolution.
I mean, Tony clearly made a mistake in that moment and responded to it by completely removing himself from the situation and then moving briefly to Jamaica. Also Toby did Jim a huge favor by ignoring years of mostly valid HR Complaints against him.
I alway saw Toby as the father figure, the law enforcer without being strict or intimidating and Michael was this rebel kid that felt respressed around him, so he was always was rude to him because Michael is a very insecure inmature man that rarely wants to work. But the point about proyecting himself on toby also explains a lot
It’s hilarious because it’s so accurate of corporate life. A lot of people who complain about HR are the inept colleagues who everyone else has suffer through.
Toby's camera stares were often times better than Jim's...
Jim's camera stares were a signal to the audience that he was "in on it" with the rest of us. Toby's camera stares were a cry for help.
I love how collaborative this show was. It was an incredible great decision Greg Daniels made (incredible because usually creators don't like people messing with their ideas) and that made the show so unique.
A great example is how Toby played off of Michael in that first scene. Michael tells him to get some white out. Toby could have left, I mean he isn’t used to doing improv live on camera on a network television show. But he stood there and looked at the desk tried to think of something to work with. He says, there’s white out, and Steve carell doesn’t miss a beat and says get your own white out, showing that Michael is just trying to flex on him. 😂
The boss who constantly breaks the rules hating the HR guy who constantly reminds him of the rules is just logical.
I like that throughout the series they kinda justified the Toby hate. Jim and Andy grow to hate him when they act as the boss too
In hindsight it seems like such a natural choice.. hr is the only position that can’t be fired, the only position that is required to stand up to Michael, the only position that has a relationship with his higher ups. It makes perfect sense that Michael low key tries to undermine Toby at every turn. But it wasn’t written into the show, it goes back to what Toby said, Steve Carell doesn’t miss a thing when doing improv. He could sense that power dynamic and drew it out.
I’ve always wondered if the actors were best of friends in real life. I can’t seem to find any information on this. But most of the time when you have a nemesis on a sitcom, it turns out the two are actually really good friends.
Pam and Angela are really good friends
@@vaudevillian7 yeah, exactly. I always wondered about Michael and Toby as that’s usually the case 😃
I've been listening to the DVD commentaries for the first time, and I will say - I have noticed that Paul Lieberstein always gets a TON of love from everybody, he seems very popular. Which is funny cuz... Toby.
Toby is the employee who makes the series grounded in reality and keeps the office from turning dysfunctional. Characters like him are (unfairly) disliked and mistreated because most people tend to prefer the quirky and wild person that Michael is, even if he tends to be wrong and idiotic almost all the time. I think Toby's writing was handled poorly since he just doesn't deserve what happens to him.
It felt so malicious tbh. The way Toby was treated made no sense without an explanation tbh.
The explanation is easy. Toby is HR, which means it's Toby's job to stop Micheal from doing everything he wants to do. Thus the hatred.
It's about the world existing before we started watching. About making the world feel lived in. Of course Michael hates HR because it is always getting in the way of what he wants to do.
Are you sure you’re being honest ?
Toby was HR nuff said
It always just made sense to me. Someone as offensive as Michael would definitely eternally struggle with HR 😂 He was ready to hate Holly too but she flirted with him so that changed things 😂😂
I always loved the fact that every one that gets to a managing position in the office, they almost imediatelly start having problems with Toby
“Michael lacks any social skills”
….
You do realize Micheal is an amazing salesman right? That’s the whole reason he is tolerated at all lol.
Michael is an amazing salesman because he first makes friends with his clients, then discusses business needs. It's much more easier to talk to someone about business if you have a relationship established already, compared to when you're meeting them for the first time. He lacks the ability to understand social cues and behaviours which is why he was heavily disliked due to his need to be liked and having everyone's attention to him.
It was touched on earlier too: Michael and Toby have HISTORY in DM more than anyone else.
It always seemed to me that Michael hated the fact that Toby divorced.. I mean, he had the chance to achieve what Michael craved most (a family) and, like, in Michael’s head, he threw it away…
Also, I’d like to think Michael somehow had some sense about something wrong with Toby (i.e the Scranton Struggler)
See....stuff like this is why The Office can and should NEVER be rebooted
Wow. I didn't realize how excellent Toby is as a mirror of Michael. No wonder Michael has such a fearful loathing toward him. It's comical, but so sad. Thank you for another interesting video.
God be with you out there everybody. ✝️ :)
I don't know if I remember correctly but I think at some point we learnt that Michael's parents got divorced and that was supposed to be the reason why he hates Toby so much: because he is a divorcée who "ruined his family"
Ive had bosses like this. Bosses who just couldnt stand me no matter what i did. Thier bosses loved me so they couldnt do anything but they always found something to be irritated with me about.
Most of my interactions with an HR employee makes me understand why michael hates toby so much
Adding on to the gag, when Jim's interviewing for the management position with Wallace at the end of season 3, the latter warns the former that the only person Jim's not going to like at corporate is the head of HR, implying that managers will forever be at odds with HR.
I really like his hate for Toby. It’s like the last most immature spiteful part of Micheal that keeps on as he grows throughout the series.
Michael's not the only one who hates Toby. I've worked with HR reps and their "unbiasedness" for the last 16 years. Never once seen them side against management. Toby's right. HR is a joke.
If you think Michael is the worst kind of boss, you've been very lucky.
Would have rather had a Michael type boss than the one at my last job
Love both characters
I have seen the show about 6 times. The only person that truly hates Toby is Michael. Most of the other characters actually like Toby. Even Pam admitted that she used to like him.
The brilliance of Steve Carrell to automatically assume that there’s a huge rift between “the FUN Manager” and Corporate’s HR Rep. is sheer genius. It’s no wonder that people can love, hate and relate to this dynamic all these years later…
"Mutual antagonism"? There is nothing mutual about it. 😂 Michael is straight up bullying Toby through the whole show, and Toby is just accepting it 😂
No we don’t tolerate Scott, I’ve never heard anyone say we tolerate him, we LOVE Michael Scott
I strongly disagree with a description that is constantly underlined for the whole video: there is no mutual hatred, but just a one way feeling. Michael expresses his hate towards Toby throughout the whole show and Toby basically never reacts or at least never gets mad.
Toby works for hr which is corporate which means he isn’t a part of our family. He’s also divorced so that means he isn’t really a part of his family.
A great thing about the Office was how they never softened up Michael's disdain for Toby at all like a lesser show would have likely done or tried to make them connect at some point and become buds. I love that scene when Toby was trying to have a heart to heart with Michael and they were eating together at that conference and Michael shoves his tray of food off of the table in disgust. I remember watching that scene when it first aired and just laughing my ass off.
There is an episode when Michael see David Wallace saying something about hating his own HR guy.
I aways thought that since Michael wanted to be like David Wallace, he would hate his own HR guy too.
I always felt that Michael hated him because Michael thinks of the office as his own private little fiefdom, and he outranks everybody. Except Toby.
Because Toby is HR he's the only one who can override Michael, and tell him what he can and cannot do. If Michael pushes things too far Toby can report Michael's actions to corporate, and Michael knows it. And hates it.
And Michael's hatred of Toby is a prime example of how selfish and narcissistic Michael is.
Toby is not a bad guy in any way. The only bad thing you could say about him is that he's boring.
But Michael uses that as a reason to hate him because he thinks of himself as being an incredibly fun and cool 'boss' and everybody's friend and that only Toby is constantly preventing him from being this.
But Michael isn't those things. At all. Michael is just childish, immature, petty, selfish, egotistical, self-deluding, and narcissistic. And he has power over other people.
Consequently Michael is more hated by most everyone in the office much much more so than Toby is!
Dwight is just a sycophant, and Michael knows it. Ryan saw Michael as nothing more than a way to advance in the company and used him that way, although Michael thinks he was his mentor.
All the other executives think he's kind of a pathetic joke, and some mock and bully him, although Michael thinks it's 'camaraderie'.
Angela, Kelly, Stanley, Jan, and all the guys in the warehouse genuinely hate him.
And Jim, Pam, Erin, Darryl, Andy, Oscar, Kevin, and Meredith all just find him amusing and pitiful at the same time, although Michael thinks he's their friend.
And God knows what Creed thinks...
I always figured Paul was in the writer’s room, just having a blast writing the Michale hates Toby scenes. Who knew it was Steve’s idea?
I would hate the Scranton Strangler too...
Michael has the power to fire Tobey but he’d get fired for firing Tobey just cause he doesn’t like Tobey.
Toby actually spoke normally in season 9. I think it was when Jim asked him about marriage counseling
Hating toby was such an unenjoyable part of the show
Michael coming from divorced parents makes his relationship with Toby, as a divorced father, more interesting. Maybe Michael blames Toby in a subconscious way for doing to Sasha what Michael's dad did to him
I believe Michael knew Toby was the Scranton strangler
It's like me and my supervisor. We're both genuinely nice guys. But he's to by the books and i just go with the flow. Both of us work well to get the job done. But we butt heads on occasions.
I hate Toby. He stop Dwight and Andy from playing Country Road. Also he is lame to talk to or talk about. I want to have things fun and Toby makes it not that way. I hate, so much about things that Toby chooses to be.
Loved that show, but it really needed to end when Michael Scott left.
Its funny how everyone laughs at the bullying Michael does to Toby, but it's painful to watch when either you've been through the same thing, or you know that others have been through it.
I honestly think Toby shows what an HR should actually be like.
1. Most incidents, Toby avoids escalating issue to higher ups. For example, Dwight's complain box against Jim.
2. Compared to Toby, Holly was actually the worst HR. The fact that she didn't kept Meridith's secret about her sleeping with their clients confidential and actually reporting her to higher ups basically shows it.
"Perpetually neglecting actual business in favor of doing things that are fun or exciting. At least what they think is fun and exciting".
You literally just described the entire dream model of modern influencers who, as Robert California so aptly put it, produce nothing. Cause and effect? Who knows? What's true is Michael was prophetically ahead of his time.
If Toby really is the strangler, then Michael is probably pushing him to the edge daily. Michael is practically an accessory.
It would've been interesting to see what the office would've looked like if Toby had become the manager when Micheal left. In the first season it would'nt have worked because Toby probably would've ran things relatively effectively and that would be boring, but by the later seasons everyone in the office had adapted to having Micheal Scott as their boss and the chaos could've come from that place of Toby trying to fix what Michael had ultimately changed in everyone (maybe even including him?).
I love these serious analysis of silly things
“I can’t do anything about anything” maybe that’s when he became the Stratton strangler
Lmao I don’t think actors not getting credit for the characters they play has EVER been a problem. In fact it’s more likely to find an actor complaining the public will come up to them and treat them like they ARE that character.
I always thought it was because Michael’s parents and how Toby reminded him.
“You are a waste of life and should give up.”
….Honestly, like, DAMN.
I always see Toby as Michael's "scapegoat," like in dysfunctional families. Someone takes all the misdirected blame, even if totally irrational. (Parks & Rec did it hilariously, too, with Jerry.) Michael is so unfulfilled in life...all because of Toby. Lol.
"Foxcatcher," M&Fers!! Steve Carell is an absolute acting dynamo. 👌
I always imagined that Michael initially liked or wanted to like Toby, but over time Toby’s demeanor and interference with his ideas caused Michael to despise him. I think we saw the start of that process when Jim was manager for a day and Toby started to get on his nerves. We also saw multiple times that Michael does not respond well to being undermined in his office, since he fought with Ryan, Charles, and Jim when they vetoed his ideas. I think the key difference is Tobys demeanor/personality just fundamentally irritates Michael in a way that makes him personally hate Toby more.
Does anyone remember the episode where they had to decide who got the salary bonuses? We never knew who got it. Same happened in a previous episode that didn't have an ending
With the right actor for the role, the character can become so much more than what was put on paper. I think, for example, RDJ being cast as Iron Man was one of the best decisions made for Marvel. He became his character so wholefully, I don't think anyone else considered at the time could have paved the way like RDJ did. Just like Carell was probably the best choice to play Michael Scott, I don't know if anyone else could have pulled it off.
I think back to the footage of Eric Stoltz as Marty in Back to the Future and how he just didn't have the right chemistry for the role. Some remakes have the same issue where the actor hired just doesn't bring the same life to the character. So if they did try to remake Back to the Future, for example, I doubt they could recapture the magic of the original
I do think it's interesting how Michael tried to frame Toby for drugs, but realized how screwed up it was and was willing to be arrested in his place.
That doesn't excuse what he did, but it clearly shows that Michael greatly dislikes Toby, but wouldn't go as far as to destroy his life like that.
I thought it had something to do with Toby possibly being the Scranton Strangler and Michael basically being a dumb golden retriever. He doesn’t know WHAT is wrong, just that something IS wrong.
Was this really needed to be analyzed? It's really not that complex of a relationship.
Michael hates Toby because it's Toby's job to be the voice of reason in a very unconventional office.
Toby's only trying to do his job, but Michael, being the immature man-child that he is, thinks that Toby only gets in his way because he's mean and boring and he just hates fun.
And Toby doesn't really hate Michael. He actually tried to become friends with him on several occasions in the show.
There is parts where he’s nice to him like with bring your daughter to work day
great take, good job
Toby, speaking about meeting the Scranton Strangler, “I think this is the start of my first friendship…”
Intro is wrong: Michael's methods worked, and had Coorporate acknowledging him on top of the other regional managers.
Toby was hr and tried to control him to make the office look more secure and orderly
Holly showed up and let Michael be Michael
Why was Dwight able to fire Tobey from corporate, when Michael failed multiple times over?
- Michael...
- Oh, hey, Toby. Can you close the door on your way out?
What are the odds. I just watched The Alliance Superfan cut yesterday and thought “Is this the first time Toby ruined something?”
Office Movie idea: dark comedy (Joker but More) from Toby's perspective of Michael and how he has a weird beautiful connection with everyone in the office Except him and the verbal and psychological aBuse Toby puts up with that takes him to the Brink of inSanity and gives him a DrJekyll and MrHyde complex that turns him into the Scranton Strangler. Eventually he realizes that He is the Scranton Stranger. Has to go to Costa Rica. Composes himself. Then Returns safe but disillusioned yet Comitted now. End on montage of Toby After Michael.
Family Matters' Jaleel White envisioned "Urkel" and changed the entire dynamic of the show as well.
Michael wants freedom Toby represented safety (restrictions) .. not happiness
In my perspective Michael hates Toby so much because he didn't want to end up like him
Loser, sad, divorce away from his child and living alone
Its like yin and yang with chaotic twist
If it were bad for DM, they would have fired him a long time ago… his office was top performer!
The way how Michael hates Toby is on the another level.
I think the hate comes from the fact that Tobey had everything that Michael ever dreamed about, but he failed to keep it.
I clicked on this video just to comment saying that I thought this was a legal eagle video based on the thumbnail.
I wonder if Michael just has good instincts and knew he was the Scranton strangler.
I always assumed Michael hated Toby because he was from corporate and in a way usurped his authority. Tobey was always there to ruin his fun.