Yeah, since I became a Harley owner and rider I’ve noticed a lot of contention that I hadn’t noticed before when I was riding a Honda and watching Honda videos and reading Honda posts and such. I guess what I’m trying to say is I never got any flack from anyone when I was riding a Honda, but when I started riding a Harley I got all kinds of pushback! I was told multiple times about how bad my Harley was and how I threw my money away and how I must like fixing bikes instead of riding them and how a 650 metric will blow away my Harley sportster and on and on. So that’s been my experience with the motorcycle community so far. I just started riding about 4 months ago. Started on a Honda 600 (which I still have) and just purchased an iron 883. I love ALL motorcycles! But I really, really, LOVE Harley Davidson motorcycles!!!
Well its good analogue when we stop at explosion in cylinder assuming more torque was achieve be biger stronger explosion and not from longer arm from crank 👌🏻if we go lil further than that answer for people like you may be lil surprise 😜 cos lighter hammer at enough more velocity be generating more power and less torque in fact hit harder 😎this is analogue to output force at contact path at given velocity 🪠i maybe do lil video with this hammer later 👍🏻and show you how it goes 🪠i can just write you now that lighter hammer at enough biger velocity which give more power and less torque at arm axis will in fact need lesss hit to put the same nail in the same peace of wood or it also need less hit for cut or break the same part of wood be using some sharp tool at end 😁 watch this m.th-cam.com/video/NMUMjLJgqu8/w-d-xo.html 😎
Finally a video that properly explain how torque vs horsepower feel. Wasted 40 minutes on other channels listening to stupid calculations , theory, history and measurement charts without understanding a single thing. This guys gets it. This is exactly what I looking for. How it feels on the wheel...
No they messs alot thing ,they dont egzacly understand this theme 👌🏻 and you too according to what you write 😁. But i try explain you this simplest way possible first of all level of power at specific vehicle velocity determinant force at contact path 👌🏻 engine with more displacement and torq down low produce the same power and force at contact path at lower rpm so those engine dont need to be rev somuch for achieve egzacly the same results 👌🏻👍🏻😁 this is simplest and shorter explanation of this theme 😎 this h-d in theyr video never produce sp much force at contact path at the same velocity as liter sporta bike assuming we both geared perfectly for let say 50 km/h so this h-d at 5 k rpm at 50 km/h where its engine have max power will generate much less force at contact path than BMW s1000 rr engine at 13000 rpm at 50 km/h where also have max power cos engine BMW makes 2 times more power 😁 you wonder what if we setup engine rpm in h-d for max torque rpm at 50 km/h whatever that rpm are let say 3000 rpm ? Well it be even worse 😁😎👌🏻cos at max torque at this h-d engine os produce less power than at peak power 😁 and from formula power:velocity = force we know this 👌🏻 BMW s1000 rr engine at 13000 rpm at 50 km/h be able tp pull up hill 2 times heavier load on trailer than engine this h-d at 5000 rpm at 50 km/h and of acceleration is force divide ne mass than the same weight BMW engine bele to teleport 2 times faster forward or 2 times heavier mass at the the same acceleration rate level 😎😁👌🏻
@@MrDarcy-OlMan correct 👌🏻 i never ride bike with 150 nm + at 2000 rpm 👍🏻 bike with most torque which im drive was around 120 nm at around 7000 rpm in sport tourist bike 👌🏻 bit still i know egzacly how those stuff goes cos physics can precise acuratelly predict this havind such dat like torque level ,rpm level, and gearing 👌🏻😁👍🏻 120 nm at 7 k rpm in this sport touring bike at 70 km/h with thRotle max open and this bike leave in the dust 150nm+ at 2000 rpm also from 70 km/h with thRotle max open starting drive side be side 😁👌🏻in the dust because 120 nm at 7000 rpm generate 2,5 to 3 times biger force at contact path 😎 but if we compare 2000 rpm to 2000 rpm at the same velocity than this tourist bike will have 0 chance assuming we leveled weight both bike to the same value be diffrenc in driver weight 👌🏻
@@MrDarcy-OlMan Your ass cant feel the difference between torque and power; that is physically impossible. Your body will only feel acceleration as a function of work being done to move a mass (ie you and the bike) which is directly related to power (defined as how much of said work can be done in a given time.) Bikes with twice the power will accelerate faster, and that's all you'll feel. Saying you can "feel" torque or feel power is like saying you can feel the presence of god.
My favourite analogy for this is to image you have 10 sand bags which needs moving into a box assuming both engines or workers make the same horsepower but one has higher torque then they would be able to move the sand bags in the same amount of time but by lifting two or more at a time vs the other worker moving them one bag at a time but faster. I liked the sprinter vs the rock analogy haha
Love your videos but this is best at all! Love to see it again and again. All Bikers should have more understanding for each other and the different style of choosing the bike. I have exactly that combination in my garage: a black HD 114 Fat Bob 2021 and a red CB 650 R an I love them both as they are as you said for different purposes - I will not miss one of them 😀
Tortoise and the Hair...I always preferred 4 cyl engines because I like the concept that you do the hardest work at the end. low and slow and as you build and finish strong. The torquey engine hits hard up front but gives up when things got stressed. I love and own both !! 👌
I could have been more concise by just saying "nutting too soon" vs "building up for that big load". Depending on what mood my wife is in, both are equally as enjoyable.
Sad how torque is such an overlooked thing, especially from sportbike riders, their needs are different from cruiser riders, and always mention “insane horsepower, your harleys/ any cruiser makes a mere 60hp” without realizing that the torque on most cruisers is actually insane and that each rider has different needs and uses, not everyone needs an uncomfortable crotch rocket or a super comfy two wheeled sofa (how bashers call each other’s rides)
well if you have small sport bike which must be light for increasing acceleration you need as much hp as posiible torq is irrelevant and beacuse weight must be low for load less each hp engine must be small and light thats why they generste low torq and high hp at high rpm such setup can be achieved be short stroke and light components at end as hp is only one thing which generated force at set speed than torque is reallly irrrelevant units put 121 milwakeeight big V2 engine with 120 hp at crsnk os and 200 nm os into gsxr 750 frame give it perfect gearing + leveled diffrences in weight be heavier rider on stock gsxr 750 which have 175 hp and 90 nm in pro race prep setup cos with big V2 heavier engine it be now heavier and what happen with rider let say both 300 kg flat ? with 121 huge V2 engine it be much slower cos at each the same speed cos of lower hp it will generate lower contact path force aka thrust which launch it much slower/weaker forward 👌🏻 stock gsxr 750 race prep setup or even stock 150 hp 83 nm will accelerate much stronger well stock not so much stronger but still stronger 😎👍🏻 in regard to cruiser huge torq is for lowering rpm at which is achieve specific power level which determined thrust at set speed for nothing more and with huge torq is corelated huge dispalcement and with this low rpm and with low rpm they csn setup huge stroke and all this give cruiser rider this what they like so specific sound 👌🏻 + low rpm but thrust is determined be power level at set speed level feg 100 hp 200 nm at 3500 rpm +/- at 100 km/h genersted +/- 2 times lower thrust than 200 hp 100 nm at 14000 rpm also at 100 km/h +/- 😎 open throtle in both on 100% at this 100 km/h and 100 hp 200 nm at 3500 rpm have 💩 against 200 hp 100 nm at 14000 rpm accelerate forward much slower much less rapidly give rider more time to end coffe ☕️ 😉👍🏻 torque is 100% comepnsate be rpms 👉🏻 100 hp from 1000 nm at 700 rpms will push ypu forward the same strong as feg 100 hp from 10 nm at 70000 rpms at the same speed ,which setup you like more now its debate only abput preferention not hard numbers which determined force level and accelerstion level 🤷🏻♂️👌🏻 120 hp 65 nm engine from stock supersport 600 cc inline 4 in feg yamaha xvs 1300 which stock have 75 hp 125 nm os assuming we connect this 600 cc engine with perfect gearing for new aplication including 1 gear lenght doffrences between gear lnght in reagrd to peak power band charactersitcs/width and gears quantity absolutely smoked stock xvs 1300 on accelerstion at drag strip and at top speed attempt 😁👌🏻🍿 but gove it try both setup typical cruiser choper rider and probably 9 out of 10 if not 99 out of 100 choice stock xvs 1300 engine cos :it work enough efectively /enpugh power for theyr needs on normal road on much lower rpm peak power 5500 vs 14500 rpm 🫣 and it sounds like proper classic cruiser and not like vacum cleaner (what for me isint huge factor if at all but im not cruiser rider but rather sports nakeds +/- fan im value more other stuff 👌🏻) 😎👌🏻☕️❤
I enjoyed this and I think it is brilliant - Thank you! One thought that might be a lot of extra work for a small improvement, and that is, you'll get better sound if you use microphones...
Torque for me. I love that low-down shove of my MT-01. Good analogy with the runners. Yep, my big Yam is a rhinoceros. You don't mention that high torque comes with capacity and that comes with weight.
Easy explanation. Adding to yours, torque and horsepower, being the two sides of a coin, have a peak number, as you stated. What is often overlooked is precisely this. Manufacturers claim hp at certain rpm, usually high, in order to show their bike and thus attracting more possible buyers. That's okay, since they want to sell for revenue. But, examining the question, peak hp is often achieved near the red line, and here lies why hp must be taken as a grain of salt: for racing purposes, hp is absolutely essential; for commuting or recreational riding, it is not since it isn't usual to take the rpm to the red line most of the times; in other words, street use calls for the mid number that manufacturers claim in their specs sheets. Torque and hp prove to be more useful for street use if considered firstly having a rpm at which they are generated and secondly by reading the power/rpm graph, because it is in this graph that we can see how the engine behaves, thus we can destine it in a wise way for its purpose or our needs, which, for a responsible rider, aren't racing on public roads. Finally, even though we can have a certain hp number at a certain rpm, it is necessary to divide the hp number at the rear wheel between the weight of the vehicle in order to have an approximate power to weight ratio (wind resistance has its role here, for example), being the resulting figure a better indicator of what the motorcycle could potentially generate. It is also useful for fair comparisons.
It's really not that bad, just done the valve shims on my XJR1300. It wasn't difficult or expensive and I don't have to look at them again for 15,000 miles.
I enjoyed the video, couple of remarks and corrections. "HD may not rev as quickly as the honda but gives massive shove in the back". This is controversial. You can't have a shove in the back and not accelerating fast. If honda is faster, it gives harder shove in the back. Same peak peak power of two bikes but honda beating HD despite much lower torque leads us to gearing. Honda has to have much shorter gears. So it applies more torque to the ground than HD at the same speed of a bike (or more power, which is the same in the case of a given speed) Climbing up the hill is the same thing: drive honda at the same speed and with engine producing the same ammount of power (obviously you drive at lower gear) and you will feel the same effortless as with HD. And a final side note, check how the sprinters train: squats and sleds pull with heavy weights
It’s one of the reasons I bought my Triumph Trophy SE it has torque and Horsepower. I ride in an area where there’s tons of Harleys everywhere and to be honest they don’t keep up there not even close especially when the curves come. I’ve ridden them and I owned a cruiser it’s a totally different experience. My wife refuses to get on the cruiser hence why it’s no longer in the garage. Trying to whip around a 900 lb Harley and then getting it to stop is not much fun. Living in Canada and touring the western USA most years cruisers are everywhere, and I like riding something different. I’ve had the wife on the back for 6000km trips in 10 days and a sport tourer is just the best mile muncher there is. Electric windshield, cruise control, electronic adjustable suspension and the list just keeps getting longer 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Simplified, I'm more confused than ever. The Harley is a Rhinoceros and the Honda is Chris Coleman (sorry Chris but never heard of you.) My scooter must be the Butterfly. Great video, cheers.
I still see Royal Enfield's of 60's and 70's running in good condition in India. I have changed three Japanese bikes in twenty years because of high rev engine, the engine wear and tear is so fast.
Great Video Guys! Now i finally understand. What about weight factor? the Honda will be lighter at approx 200 kilos. I've been looking at the new F77 electric mini sports bike from India - it has 90 nm of Torque and 30hp. The F77 only weighs approx 160 kilos - i think it would outpace the Honda in the 60 meter dash, but the Honda would catch up and overtake. I ride the cbr650r and love it!! Not tempted to change for electric just yet as Honda parts are so reliable and solid for motorway cruising or riding in heavy rain, and as long as it's serviced it will last for a very long time :)
F77 will have 0 chance against CB 650 r on 0-60 m sprint 😎👌🏻but you can have close results with BMW g310 😂 CB 650 hit 100 km/h in under 4 sec vs f77 in like 8 sec 👌🏻🪠 and f77 have 33,5 hp not 30 hp ,engine torque figurę is pointless ,CB 650 produce much biger force at contact path and leave f77 in the dust at straight dont Belive do drag race 😎🤣
Just subscribed to your channel. Very well explained I now know what it's all about got to admit I had now clue on it before. Question what's it like riding in those cowboy boots your wearing in your videos ?
If harleys represents torque that would be my choice im not into power because of riding position its relax , good for long rides , but it does not matter if its harley or not as long its a cruiser bike no more questions ask for me i love cruisers . As long as it is classics nothing can compare to them cruisers,choppers,bobbers, trackers,scramblers, cafe,brat are my kind of motorcycles ❤❤❤
I do like that sporty middleweight are moving towards 700-900 twins rather than revvy 600 four pots. It's a much nicer riding experience in my opinion. That said horsepower is how hard you hit the wall and torque is how far you keep going afterwards. Stay safe.
Most of the Harley Davidson bikes are air cooled pushrod engines. Pushrods mean no high rpm. Air cooled means longer stroke to prevent overheating. It's harder to cool a over square large diameter piston as the heat doesn't make it to the outside edge. So the Harley engine is limited in how much power it can make.
@@MrDarcy-OlMan Harley Davidson bikes are fine for the Power they make if people want less weight more power they can look at other motorcycle manufacturers.
Well not a harley hater at all but i think they can do better and still maintain the air-cooled engine. Just look at the engine on the monster 1100 big number air-cooled engine with 700cc less than your typical harley
@@bazitube390 1100 monster still makes that power and torque at much higher rpm than the Harley. And less of it 75.9 ft lbs @ 6k rpm 100hp @ 7.5k rpm Harley is 119 ft lbs @ 3k rpm I actually think that's impressive. Don't even know what the horsepower is.
👏 Fair play on taking on this tricky subject. I always struggle to explain this to my not so technically minded buddies. Good analogies as usual. I think you should have demonstrated it by carrying mr Darcy up a hill then he carries you! Then a 60m sprint. I'd leave 12 year old girls out of it though. Lol. Seriously, in the anology you need to take into consideration power to weight. You obviously can squat more than mr Darcy I would suspect but he may be able to squat more in ratio to his weight. I'm clumsily trying to include power to weight ratio which, is why it's a tricky one to explain simply👍 BTW, I hope you gave mr Darcy the proverbial clip around the ear for being cheeky re not knowing the sprinter lol.
@@marcusgeorge1825 Thanks. What about Perceived power. I mean surely this calculation does not take into account physical load e.g. solo, solo and pillion, luggage, correct tyre pressures, ambient environment for example head wind. What you "actually" perceive is much different to what is recorded on a dyno? Take same bike x 2 in this case the cb650r. One has a 10 stone rider the other has 2 x 15 stone ( rider+ pillon) each and another couple of stones of luggage. I guess wouldn't make a difference on a dyno but in real conditions would alter the perception of performance? Am always eager to be educated 👍
Love harleys and sports bikes equally. My riding style suits a ktm duke, e.g. I can appear normal with concentration, however, doesn't take much to make me a bit mental.
@@vintagerealityvr mate, that supposed to be funny comment. Sorry if I failed to convey the spirit of the thing. We all know elemental principles of Newtonian physics by now. You can consider it as a comical equivalent to infinite indeterminatism paradox (what happens when irresistible force meets unmovable object). It was a joke. Unless you can divide by zero.
I think you forgot to mention engine configuration, the v twin from HD and the inline 4 from honda are 2 completely acting engines and unless you can open them right up, both are comfortable quick bikes no matter the torque, I ride the 2014 cb650f and coming from a twin engine bike before that, definitely notice the difference in engine.
It's more cylinders for horsepower. Less cylinders (bigger pistons) for torque. These bikes. Are a perfect example of the same horsepower but. Two very different bikes
I have another example from the 1980's. My GSXR750 could handily beat a GSRX1000 on a twisty road. Neither of us had any real torque, but he had more HP. Still though, because my ENGINE was lighter, I could beat him. On a Harley it would not really have affected the outcome, because torque. GSXR needs a light rider. Harley doesn't much matter. As OP says; I ride both and neither is "better". One wins on a track or 1/4 mile, the other is my favorite bike. ;-)
no idea what you say 🤷🏻♂️ you say that because h-d have so much torq load which it carry dosent matter ? and it always accelerate the same ? if yes than Nope its contradiction to acceelration = force:mass so you are wrong 😁👌🏻
@@kwakwa917 well you have to consider that weight also matters, but yes torque Is for acceleration if you put the 650 engine in the Harley Is not going to rev up quickly and is not going to do a 4.4 seconds 0-60 even if the Power Is the same.
@@kwakwa917 this isnt true. A bike cant make more torque and less power or vice versa; it can make that torque and power in different places in its rpm range however, and the faster a torqued object spins the more power it makes. Making power and torque at high rpm results in low torque up to a high rpm with high power. Conversely making a high torque and power at low rpm results in a high torque and a high power at low rpm. Think of it not as power or torque, but as how do we make power; more rpm, or more torque? Most modern engine go with the rpm option now that metallurgy and lubrication is so advanced, but for a long time torque was a better option, and it still is in some cases, like trucks, where it leads to better driveavility and reliability.
I think if I was doing a lot of town riding, taking off from lights, filtering through traffic I'd take the Honda. If I was doing a lot of touring, country miles, the Harley is a lovely, relaxing ride especially with a decent set of pipes as on the Heritage.. Ideally you'd get a 4-500 Japanese Trail bike for town, green laining and a big Harley for country, touring. Harley Davidson should get a trail bike made for them under licence - your thoughts?
@@MrDarcy-OlMan Too big. Make a Scrambler 500 version of their V-twin street bike. Royal Enfield Himalayan. Just a 500 single with road tyres. What we in Australia call a bush basher.
One thing you can't do is get more torque. It's down to having big CC. Even if a engine is de-tuned for torque. The numbers are lower. No replacement for displacement has never been truer than when it comes too torque.
@@chrishart8548 That or a super charger. The old school rule of thumb was superchargers for slower revving motors and turbo's for high revvers. Either way, big torque gains.
@@Cundalinis_Hand it's true. with a turbo you can get higher torque figures than horsepower. Some engines make over 1000ft lb of torque with only 550hp. That can only happen with a turbo. Gsxr750 has 125hp and 61 ft lb torque at over 10,000rpm
Great explanation, i love to discuss things like that 👍 Power (= Watt) is just the product of torque (Nm) multiplied with revolutions per second multiplied with 2x phi (3,14). Thats the reason why harley never had a huge amount of "horsepower", because of the slow turning crankshaft. This crankshaft cannot turn that fast because of the long stroke of the pistons, otherwise the velocity of the pistons in the cylinders would exceed.However, due to the long stroke, there is a large amount of leverage which results in enormous force of the harley engines. P.S.: I've NEVER heard of this Christian......who? 😁
It should also widespread that there is no perfect motorcycle. Every motorcycle in this physical world is made out of tradeoffs. You explained one at engine level. We can take wheelbase and agility/stability; wide tyres and agility/stability; rake and trail angles, high or low centre of gravity, etc. No motorcycle is perfect because they are manufactured with a final/ideal purpose and the real use or needs a biker has. No bike is better than other, not at least outside the racetrack. Once understood this, absurd hatred or praises would be no more. We as motorcyclists should be united, no matter the brand or engine size.
@@MrDarcy-OlMan im 6ft 230lbs. Watched your video on the road king special. Stated you would stay on the heritage. Trying to decide the best decision for me. How tall are you and weight if you dont mind me asking?
@@moultriet.3262 Hi! Thanks buddy. I’m 6’3” If you watch our recent video on the Street Glide Special (same as Road King pretty much) that’s got some more up to date info on the subject. Also, watch our Indian Springfield video just uploaded. That’s a revelation!
Rented a Morgan three wheeler with the 2 ltr S&S X wedge 114.4 lb.-ft. @3000 rpm so I know what you mean back wheel would spin if you sneezed in the first 3 gears
Therefore, thus, QED the Harley is much better than some ol' whiny crotch rocket. I'm not being bias _at all_ ! ;) Oh, and the Ol' Man's Heritage pipes sound so boss.
The way I usually explain the difference between torque and power is, a race horse has lots of power, a plow horse has lots of torque. Personally I have always preferred the plow horse.
I miss Tourqe, ive had to get rid of my diesel Car because of the London ULEZ and now have a petrol non turbo and most of time in London just feels underwhelming
nope 👍🏻 its ridiculous 🤣 however alot people think like this that power is something ehich is calculate from some silly formula and do nothing and what you only feel is torque which acceelrate engine to biger rpm at which is power 🤣🤮 its total bull💩 🤮 what you feel depend on how much power engine generate at specified given vehicle velocity 😎👍🏻 feg 100 hp 100 nm at engine crank at 100 km/h push you into seat 10 times stronger than 10 hp 1000nm at engine crank also at 100 km/h go test this and you find out its true 😎👍🏻
@@mociczyczki torque is FORCE times LENGTH. Force in the case, is the combustion from air-fuel mixture ignited by a spark plug which pushes the piston which then turns the crankshaft. Length in this case is the distance from the crankpin to wherever is the center of the crankshaft. The spinning motion of the crankshaft is then transferred to the transmission wherein the speed varies depending on the gear ratio. From the transmission, it will then spin the driveshaft and finally spins the wheel thus moving the vehicle. This is what I meant when I say, torque is something that moves your vehicle. Power on the other hand is. . . Well, I don't have to explain it, you wouldn't understand anyway. I doubt you understood my torque explanation, but I tried nonetheless. Reply to this comment again when you hàve a grasp on basic(Newtonian) physics. Until then, stfu. Also, please improve your grammar, I can barely understand what you are saying.
@@jimmoriarty6964 100hp at 20 k rpm at 100 km / h vehicle velocity give lesss drive wheel axis output torque but more contact path force thus push you into seat stronger generated more Gforce than 50 hp at 1 k rpm also at 100 km /h which generated much more engine crank torque and out put drive wheel axis torque assuming it have biger drive wheel radious 👍🏻 first egzample exert at 100 km/h 2 times biger thrust force 2683N vs 1341,5N in the same time have 10 times less engine crank torque than 2 egzample 35 nm vs 350 nm around like you see you can have waaay more torque both on rngine crank and on drive wheel axis and still much less contact path force / thrust 🌪🤷🏻♂️ drive wheel axis is pointless at given velocity as long as whell radious is diffrent you can manipulate gearing to wheel radious ratio thus generate diffrent level of drive wheel torque but it dosent matter what be the diffrenc at drive wheel axis torque at given velocity level of power determined Thrust 😎 feg lets take into co sideration me first egzample so 100 hp at 20 k rpm where engine makes 35 nm let say we have 0,1 metres radious drive wheel so 0,628 m around circle let say we measured thrust at 100 km/h so 27,8 m/s around i give aproximate values not super precise to 10 place after decimal so such we have 20000 engine rpm:2656 whell rpm =7,5 final ratio x 35 nm = 262 nm at drive wheel axis only but :wheel radious 0,1 m = 2620 N thrust this is true force which drive wehicle forward i dont i cluding drive train loses and like i. write i give not suepr precise but aproximate value thats why it differ to 2683 N earlier claimed 👍🏻 now let assume we put wheel which have 1 metres radious also for 100 km /h at 100 hp 35 nm at 20000 rpm engine crank ok so such 20000 rpm:265,6 wheel rpm = 75 final ratio multiple be engine crank nm 35 nm = now we have 10 tomes biger drive wheel axis torque cos 2620 nm 😎 but what happen next is biger wheel radious eat this and exert egzacle the same output thrust like in first egzample 🤷🏻♂️👍🏻 cos 2620 nm now we must divide be 1 m and not be 0,1 m = also 2620 N thrust 🤷🏻♂️ like you see you can manipulate drive train gearing to wjeel radious ratio but if power at given velocity stay the same you always get egzacly the same output true real brutal force at conact path = thrust at this velocity 👍🏻🥳 as long as power level at given bvehicle velocity wont change as long you cant chonge contact path force aka thrust at this velocity its happen beacuse watt :m/s = force 😁dosent matter what you domwith gearing and drive wheel radious if you dont change power level at given velocity forget about more thrust at this velocity just forget about it 😁👌🏻
There is no difference. Torque is a component of power. Your motorcycle's engine is equivalent to you atop a bicycle. Neither of you is "torquey." You eat things that give you energy, then you expend it at some rate on the pedals. Similarly, when gas burns it expends energy at some rate on the crank via the piston rods. Using gear ratios, you can make the torque at the rear wheel anything you like. Certain engines just may not have the power to spin the tire at certain rpms. Torque is really a meaningless graph. If one engine makes more power at some rpm than another, then it will make more torque at that rpm. It just how the math works. The reason a HD is more torquey than a Honda 4 is that the HD makes more power at lower rpms than the Honda. Engines make power at every rpm they run at. It's not a high rpm thing. Forget torque curves. You want to know which engine will more easily pull a fat woman up a hill, just lay the power curves of the engine over one another. The one that makes more power at lower rpms will be better at pulling fat women or stumps. The engine that makes the most peak power will go the fastest (all else being equal). It just may take longer to get up to speed. If you can keep an engine with more peak power on boil, it will win races on a track. HDs are better at making real world power for those of us without an immediate death wish.
I'm still confused lol. Can someone explain it to me without using weight lifting as an example? Bikes don't weight lift and I'm autistic so I take everything literally. haha.
Haha yeah. A high torque bike can easily go along at low rpm and can accelerate or go up hill effortlessly without changing down a gear, often, to increase revs as it doesn't need many rpm to overcome resistance. A high powered bike produces power at higher rpm usually and therefore needs to rev, and can rev up easily, but more often than not doesn't pull very well at lower rpm. A Triumph Speed Triple at 2500 rpm struggles whereas a BMW R18 at 2500 is in it's best zone. At high rpm the Speed Triple accelerates rapidly up to well over 10,000rpm, whereas the R18 loses puff at late 4750 rpm
@@MrDarcy-OlMan but why do they by aftermarket ones? To be load, but why... so people look at them? Never understood load motorcycles, driving motorcycles for more than 40 years myself...
@@patrickmeylemans9627 It’s another dimension to the experience. The V-Twin sounds incredible. Most people have loud pipes because they enjoy the sound themselves, not for looks from others. It also puts you at one with the motorcycle.
@@MrDarcy-OlMan and what about all the other people not sitting on the bike, and the nature where one is passing? In Europe more and more road controls on motorbikes, why... because some of them are extreme loud... they are driving with ear protections...sorry a good sound ok but many bikes from a certain brand are way too load. Just my 2 cents
I was thinking where abouts in the UK are you to have such dry weather? Because in Somerset all we have had recently is constant rain and no butterflies 🤣
The main difference lies that you would need to rev up the crotch rocket to the red line to generate that maximum torque, whereas in the H-D it can be generated from the very low end in the rpm range. In other words, it is much more satisfying to ride in a mountain with an engine that pushes hard with little effort. For most of us who like cruisers, it is not our idea to stress the engine for recreational rides, besides the fact that the riding position of a crotch rocket is never the best or optimal for long trips. Motorcycles have their purposes; a sport bike is the best only in a racetrack.
@@omarsalgado9715 There are plenty of torquey Japanese bikes that make more bottom end power with less weight and less capacity. I have a 20 year old BMW that makes more torque at lower revs with much smaller engine.
@@omarsalgado9715 Well the Suzuki M1800R makes substantially more torque at lower RPM and with nearly 50% more horsepower. Harley are a very archaic engine.
Torque and Power cannot be considered as separate entities. Power = Torque x Revs. The Harley has more low rev power than the Honda and the Honda has more high rev power than the Harley. Using "torque" as an adjective to describe the characteristics of an engine is commonplace but misleading. Far more informative to describe where in the rev range that the bulk of the power is produced. i.e. low end power or top end power. Just get "torque" out of your head it tells us nothing about how effectively the engine can get the motorcycle up the road. It's all about POWER!
I agree with almost you wrote, but I differ that it is all about power. If it were, there would be only and only one engine for all the purposes and needs, but we are far from that being a truth. For torque (force; work) and power (amount of work in a given time), which are the two sides of one coin, a torque/hp vs rpm graph is the most useful tool to dig into the behaviour of an engine, and that departs from the very physics aspect (bore, stroke, rod length, etc.). Since no one riding on public roads is likely to take the engine to the red line permanently, those kind of graphs can guide a rider to take advantage of the engine behaviour, so he can know how to suit it to his riding style. More than being about power, it is more about locating the sweetspot that matches our riding style or needs.
hhehhe NOPE :x well not egzacly but close ;) the comparision beewten some strongman and some sprinter welll it was queit good howver not egzacly :x with lil girl and you onsome run vs in gym on heavveweight this was worse egzample ;) now im explain you why because i not like most people go very deep in this theme and i know egzacly how it goes :x =honda 64 nm at 8500 rpm vs heritage 114 161 nm at 3000 rpm ok so if we calculate with how much force both setup spin wheeel at the same driving velocity you probably may be surprise :x because .... its cb 650 f which produce more force push you forward at peak torque at the same vvelocity preciselly speaking cb 650 f will generate 13% more tractive force than heritage 114 at the same velocity :) (dont including diffrenc in powerlosesss at drive train ) so its not true harley will better go up hill or be able to pull biger weight :x torq can be conpensate be more engine rpm and vice versa so such 161 nm at 3000 rpm give the same tractibe force as let say 80,5 nm at 6000 rpm or 40,25 nm at 12000 rpm the point is for bike like heritage fast spin engine does not fit and 99% customer will not buy heritage with cb 650 f engine because rpm kill theyr ears they like huge explosion in cylinders with long time beetwen those explosion whillle cb 650 f is smooth and small explosion in cyll happen so often that it generate completely diffrent sound characteristic :x biger torq literallly lower the turnover at which we get intresting us POWER :) so for achieve the same results egzacly in cb 650 f like in heritage 114 you need reduce gear in cb650 f for spin more rpm beside diffrent in weight both bike at some point rpm cb will produce the same tractive force at the same velocity as heritage 114 and this rpm be offcorse biger :X PERIOD END OF STORY ., if we comapre tractive force at whell at the same velocity 50 nm at 10000 rpm to 100 nm at 5000 rpm forcemeter or like you want dyno show egzacly the same force in NEWTONS for egzample 100 nm at 5000 rpm give more tractve force than for egzample 50 nm at 7500 rpm but less than for egzample 50 nm at 11000 rpm !!! :) gretings .and if both this bike have similar power reason why cb 650 f accelerate faster is not higher rpm :D dont be ridiculous true reason is that h-d weight aloot more and if engine have the same power it cant accelerate bigger weight at the same acceleration rate level beause is to wweak for this no matter how big torq it will prodyce at crank :xwatch this th-cam.com/video/vHYw5HIJ53U/w-d-xo.html at some points he was also wrong but much less than you ., now why egzample with young girl and you was wrong ??? because force is acceleration multiple be weight :) ... for better acceleratuion the same weight you need more POWER for the same acceleration niger weight you need more ...POWER its not like you say that power is speed and torque is slow weight force bullshit :D not even close not for combustion engine with gear box :) like im write 50 nm of torq at 10000 rpm at the same velocity let say 1 km/h will pull up 5 times bigger weight from the lawn on your balconny for egzample than for egzample 100 nm at 1000 rpm or it will pull the same weight 5 times faster :) !!!!!!!!!!!!!! gretings .
Finally a good explanation. You'd be surprised how many videos I've watched on youtube on this subject that still left me clueless.
@@jamesw5713 great to hear 👍🏼
Yeah, since I became a Harley owner and rider I’ve noticed a lot of contention that I hadn’t noticed before when I was riding a Honda and watching Honda videos and reading Honda posts and such. I guess what I’m trying to say is I never got any flack from anyone when I was riding a Honda, but when I started riding a Harley I got all kinds of pushback! I was told multiple times about how bad my Harley was and how I threw my money away and how I must like fixing bikes instead of riding them and how a 650 metric will blow away my Harley sportster and on and on. So that’s been my experience with the motorcycle community so far. I just started riding about 4 months ago. Started on a Honda 600 (which I still have) and just purchased an iron 883. I love ALL motorcycles! But I really, really, LOVE Harley Davidson motorcycles!!!
Thanks for your comments buddy! Yes Harley has its haters! In a way, that adds to the appeal for many; the rebel bikers. 👍🏼
Basically...the Harley-Davidson is like a hammer drill with lots of torque, and the Honda sport bike is more like a high speed dremel.
Yes that’s a good analogy 👍🏼
@@MrDarcy-OlMan...By the way, the sound of your Harley is EPIC!!!
👌🏍💨🔥🔥🔥
@@breakoutpete210 thanks! Yes that spot seems to amplify the sound!
Well its good analogue when we stop at explosion in cylinder assuming more torque was achieve be biger stronger explosion and not from longer arm from crank 👌🏻if we go lil further than that answer for people like you may be lil surprise 😜 cos lighter hammer at enough more velocity be generating more power and less torque in fact hit harder 😎this is analogue to output force at contact path at given velocity 🪠i maybe do lil video with this hammer later 👍🏻and show you how it goes 🪠i can just write you now that lighter hammer at enough biger velocity which give more power and less torque at arm axis will in fact need lesss hit to put the same nail in the same peace of wood or it also need less hit for cut or break the same part of wood be using some sharp tool at end 😁 watch this m.th-cam.com/video/NMUMjLJgqu8/w-d-xo.html 😎
Finally a video that properly explain how torque vs horsepower feel. Wasted 40 minutes on other channels listening to stupid calculations , theory, history and measurement charts without understanding a single thing. This guys gets it. This is exactly what I looking for. How it feels on the wheel...
Thanks buddy 👍🏼👍🏼
No they messs alot thing ,they dont egzacly understand this theme 👌🏻 and you too according to what you write 😁. But i try explain you this simplest way possible first of all level of power at specific vehicle velocity determinant force at contact path 👌🏻 engine with more displacement and torq down low produce the same power and force at contact path at lower rpm so those engine dont need to be rev somuch for achieve egzacly the same results 👌🏻👍🏻😁 this is simplest and shorter explanation of this theme 😎 this h-d in theyr video never produce sp much force at contact path at the same velocity as liter sporta bike assuming we both geared perfectly for let say 50 km/h so this h-d at 5 k rpm at 50 km/h where its engine have max power will generate much less force at contact path than BMW s1000 rr engine at 13000 rpm at 50 km/h where also have max power cos engine BMW makes 2 times more power 😁 you wonder what if we setup engine rpm in h-d for max torque rpm at 50 km/h whatever that rpm are let say 3000 rpm ? Well it be even worse 😁😎👌🏻cos at max torque at this h-d engine os produce less power than at peak power 😁 and from formula power:velocity = force we know this 👌🏻 BMW s1000 rr engine at 13000 rpm at 50 km/h be able tp pull up hill 2 times heavier load on trailer than engine this h-d at 5000 rpm at 50 km/h and of acceleration is force divide ne mass than the same weight BMW engine bele to teleport 2 times faster forward or 2 times heavier mass at the the same acceleration rate level 😎😁👌🏻
@@mociczyczki lots of theory but i bet you’ve never ridden a bike with 150+ NM @2000 rpm; there’s nothing like it, even on bikes with twice the power
@@MrDarcy-OlMan correct 👌🏻 i never ride bike with 150 nm + at 2000 rpm 👍🏻 bike with most torque which im drive was around 120 nm at around 7000 rpm in sport tourist bike 👌🏻 bit still i know egzacly how those stuff goes cos physics can precise acuratelly predict this havind such dat like torque level ,rpm level, and gearing 👌🏻😁👍🏻 120 nm at 7 k rpm in this sport touring bike at 70 km/h with thRotle max open and this bike leave in the dust 150nm+ at 2000 rpm also from 70 km/h with thRotle max open starting drive side be side 😁👌🏻in the dust because 120 nm at 7000 rpm generate 2,5 to 3 times biger force at contact path 😎 but if we compare 2000 rpm to 2000 rpm at the same velocity than this tourist bike will have 0 chance assuming we leveled weight both bike to the same value be diffrenc in driver weight 👌🏻
@@MrDarcy-OlMan Your ass cant feel the difference between torque and power; that is physically impossible. Your body will only feel acceleration as a function of work being done to move a mass (ie you and the bike) which is directly related to power (defined as how much of said work can be done in a given time.) Bikes with twice the power will accelerate faster, and that's all you'll feel.
Saying you can "feel" torque or feel power is like saying you can feel the presence of god.
I have owned and enjoyed at least a dozen different brands and sizes of bikes in my 82 years, but the Heritage is the clear winner in looks and sound.
Yes it's a great all-rounder
FYI, cheetahs eat mature bodybuilders who come up with bad analogies. So, beware.
Great vid as usual. You nailed it by illustrating the power of talk.
Yikes! 😸
Nice attempt at explaining the difference between Torque and Power.
The Harley and Honda are both really nice and both sound nice in their own way.
Thanks John! Agreed 👍🏼👍🏼
This is the explanation i have been waiting for so long......perfect!! Thanks ❤️
Thanks buddy
My favourite analogy for this is to image you have 10 sand bags which needs moving into a box assuming both engines or workers make the same horsepower but one has higher torque then they would be able to move the sand bags in the same amount of time but by lifting two or more at a time vs the other worker moving them one bag at a time but faster. I liked the sprinter vs the rock analogy haha
Thanks buddy! That’s a great one!
Love your videos but this is best at all! Love to see it again and again. All Bikers should have more understanding for each other and the different style of choosing the bike.
I have exactly that combination in my garage: a black HD 114 Fat Bob 2021 and a red CB 650 R an I love them both as they are as you said for different purposes - I will not miss one of them 😀
Thanks buddy! Much appreciated 👍🏼👍🏼
Great video lads... the Dwayne Johnson analogy perfectly explains the torque vs power debate in my opinion.
Thanks buddy 👍🏼👍🏼
Tortoise and the Hair...I always preferred 4 cyl engines because I like the concept that you do the hardest work at the end. low and slow and as you build and finish strong. The torquey engine hits hard up front but gives up when things got stressed.
I love and own both !! 👌
We're all for the low down torque!
@@MrDarcy-OlMan oh I bet...and I bet you have more bikes than I do!
I could have been more concise by just saying "nutting too soon" vs "building up for that big load". Depending on what mood my wife is in, both are equally as enjoyable.
@@vintagerealityvr ahahaha good one lol
Sad how torque is such an overlooked thing, especially from sportbike riders, their needs are different from cruiser riders, and always mention “insane horsepower, your harleys/ any cruiser makes a mere 60hp” without realizing that the torque on most cruisers is actually insane and that each rider has different needs and uses, not everyone needs an uncomfortable crotch rocket or a super comfy two wheeled sofa (how bashers call each other’s rides)
well if you have small sport bike which must be light for increasing acceleration you need as much hp as posiible torq is irrelevant and beacuse weight must be low for load less each hp engine must be small and light thats why they generste low torq and high hp at high rpm such setup can be achieved be short stroke and light components at end as hp is only one thing which generated force at set speed than torque is reallly irrrelevant units put 121 milwakeeight big V2 engine with 120 hp at crsnk os and 200 nm os into gsxr 750 frame give it perfect gearing + leveled diffrences in weight be heavier rider on stock gsxr 750 which have 175 hp and 90 nm in pro race prep setup cos with big V2 heavier engine it be now heavier and what happen with rider let say both 300 kg flat ? with 121 huge V2 engine it be much slower cos at each the same speed cos of lower hp it will generate lower contact path force aka thrust which launch it much slower/weaker forward 👌🏻 stock gsxr 750 race prep setup or even stock 150 hp 83 nm will accelerate much stronger well stock not so much stronger but still stronger 😎👍🏻 in regard to cruiser huge torq is for lowering rpm at which is achieve specific power level which determined thrust at set speed for nothing more and with huge torq is corelated huge dispalcement and with this low rpm and with low rpm they csn setup huge stroke and all this give cruiser rider this what they like so specific sound 👌🏻 + low rpm but thrust is determined be power level at set speed level feg 100 hp 200 nm at 3500 rpm +/- at 100 km/h genersted +/- 2 times lower thrust than 200 hp 100 nm at 14000 rpm also at 100 km/h +/- 😎 open throtle in both on 100% at this 100 km/h and 100 hp 200 nm at 3500 rpm have 💩 against 200 hp 100 nm at 14000 rpm accelerate forward much slower much less rapidly give rider more time to end coffe ☕️ 😉👍🏻 torque is 100% comepnsate be rpms 👉🏻 100 hp from 1000 nm at 700 rpms will push ypu forward the same strong as feg 100 hp from 10 nm at 70000 rpms at the same speed ,which setup you like more now its debate only abput preferention not hard numbers which determined force level and accelerstion level 🤷🏻♂️👌🏻 120 hp 65 nm engine from stock supersport 600 cc inline 4 in feg yamaha xvs 1300 which stock have 75 hp 125 nm os assuming we connect this 600 cc engine with perfect gearing for new aplication including 1 gear lenght doffrences between gear lnght in reagrd to peak power band charactersitcs/width and gears quantity absolutely smoked stock xvs 1300 on accelerstion at drag strip and at top speed attempt 😁👌🏻🍿 but gove it try both setup typical cruiser choper rider and probably 9 out of 10 if not 99 out of 100 choice stock xvs 1300 engine cos :it work enough efectively /enpugh power for theyr needs on normal road on much lower rpm peak power 5500 vs 14500 rpm 🫣 and it sounds like proper classic cruiser and not like vacum cleaner (what for me isint huge factor if at all but im not cruiser rider but rather sports nakeds +/- fan im value more other stuff 👌🏻) 😎👌🏻☕️❤
Great video, highly informative. Love the sound of the Harley! Both are gorgeous bikes
Thanks Eric 👍🏼👍🏼
Great video, now I understand the difference in torque and horsepower!
Thanks! Simplified but about right
Enjoyed watching this comparison.
Thanks very much! 👍🏼👍🏼
I enjoyed this and I think it is brilliant - Thank you!
One thought that might be a lot of extra work for a small improvement, and that is, you'll get better sound if you use microphones...
Thanks bro. If you check out our recent videos, we've got a new mic and it sound perfect!
@@MrDarcy-OlMan Awesome!
I just found your channel, and havent seen the new ones, obviously... I have some binge watching to do! :D
@@danielpalmberg3371 thanks buddy. That should keep you busy!
Massive fan of your videos guys!
Thanks bro!
Torque for me. I love that low-down shove of my MT-01. Good analogy with the runners. Yep, my big Yam is a rhinoceros. You don't mention that high torque comes with capacity and that comes with weight.
Right on, yes that's true
Easy explanation.
Adding to yours, torque and horsepower, being the two sides of a coin, have a peak number, as you stated. What is often overlooked is precisely this. Manufacturers claim hp at certain rpm, usually high, in order to show their bike and thus attracting more possible buyers. That's okay, since they want to sell for revenue. But, examining the question, peak hp is often achieved near the red line, and here lies why hp must be taken as a grain of salt: for racing purposes, hp is absolutely essential; for commuting or recreational riding, it is not since it isn't usual to take the rpm to the red line most of the times; in other words, street use calls for the mid number that manufacturers claim in their specs sheets.
Torque and hp prove to be more useful for street use if considered firstly having a rpm at which they are generated and secondly by reading the power/rpm graph, because it is in this graph that we can see how the engine behaves, thus we can destine it in a wise way for its purpose or our needs, which, for a responsible rider, aren't racing on public roads.
Finally, even though we can have a certain hp number at a certain rpm, it is necessary to divide the hp number at the rear wheel between the weight of the vehicle in order to have an approximate power to weight ratio (wind resistance has its role here, for example), being the resulting figure a better indicator of what the motorcycle could potentially generate. It is also useful for fair comparisons.
Yes absolutely! Another superb addition to the subject! Thanks 👍🏼👍🏼
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.
Yes haha 👊🏼👊🏼
BS
I was going to say the same thing !!
simple and to the point! thanks for clarifying these terms :)
No problem bro
Very nice video. Good quality, easy to understand. Go ahead friends! 🇧🇷👍👍
Thanks buddy 💯
Not having to take the bike apart to adjust valves PRICELESS
It's really not that bad, just done the valve shims on my XJR1300. It wasn't difficult or expensive and I don't have to look at them again for 15,000 miles.
Does the Harley have hydraulic lifters?
I enjoyed the video, couple of remarks and corrections.
"HD may not rev as quickly as the honda but gives massive shove in the back". This is controversial. You can't have a shove in the back and not accelerating fast. If honda is faster, it gives harder shove in the back.
Same peak peak power of two bikes but honda beating HD despite much lower torque leads us to gearing. Honda has to have much shorter gears. So it applies more torque to the ground than HD at the same speed of a bike (or more power, which is the same in the case of a given speed)
Climbing up the hill is the same thing: drive honda at the same speed and with engine producing the same ammount of power (obviously you drive at lower gear) and you will feel the same effortless as with HD.
And a final side note, check how the sprinters train: squats and sleds pull with heavy weights
It’s one of the reasons I bought my Triumph Trophy SE it has torque and Horsepower. I ride in an area where there’s tons of Harleys everywhere and to be honest they don’t keep up there not even close especially when the curves come. I’ve ridden them and I owned a cruiser it’s a totally different experience. My wife refuses to get on the cruiser hence why it’s no longer in the garage. Trying to whip around a 900 lb Harley and then getting it to stop is not much fun. Living in Canada and touring the western USA most years cruisers are everywhere, and I like riding something different. I’ve had the wife on the back for 6000km trips in 10 days and a sport tourer is just the best mile muncher there is. Electric windshield, cruise control, electronic adjustable suspension and the list just keeps getting longer 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
That’s interesting to hear! Thanks buddy!
Simplified, I'm more confused than ever. The Harley is a Rhinoceros and the Honda is Chris Coleman (sorry Chris but never heard of you.) My scooter must be the Butterfly.
Great video, cheers.
Thanks Splodge! We need some new analogies now!
I still see Royal Enfield's of 60's and 70's running in good condition in India. I have changed three Japanese bikes in twenty years because of high rev engine, the engine wear and tear is so fast.
That’s a very good point! 👍🏼
Yep. My automotive engineer friend told me 25 years ago, “revs kill”
@@whatsstefon Amen
Think of it in terms of loosening a wheel nut - Horsepower is the strength in your arm, Torque is the length of the wrench you're using.
👍🏼
Very well explained!
Glad it was helpful!
Super Duke R has both in plenty.
Yes it does, but at much higher rpm
Great Video Guys! Now i finally understand. What about weight factor? the Honda will be lighter at approx 200 kilos. I've been looking at the new F77 electric mini sports bike from India - it has 90 nm of Torque and 30hp. The F77 only weighs approx 160 kilos - i think it would outpace the Honda in the 60 meter dash, but the Honda would catch up and overtake. I ride the cbr650r and love it!! Not tempted to change for electric just yet as Honda parts are so reliable and solid for motorway cruising or riding in heavy rain, and as long as it's serviced it will last for a very long time :)
Thanks buddy. It’s not easy to explain it 👍🏼👍🏼
F77 will have 0 chance against CB 650 r on 0-60 m sprint 😎👌🏻but you can have close results with BMW g310 😂 CB 650 hit 100 km/h in under 4 sec vs f77 in like 8 sec 👌🏻🪠 and f77 have 33,5 hp not 30 hp ,engine torque figurę is pointless ,CB 650 produce much biger force at contact path and leave f77 in the dust at straight dont Belive do drag race 😎🤣
I have the CB it is a brilliant bike
Yes it’s great isn’t it!
Just subscribed to your channel. Very well explained I now know what it's all about got to admit I had now clue on it before. Question what's it like riding in those cowboy boots your wearing in your videos ?
Thanks buddy! Glad it helped. The cowboy boots are great to ride in
If harleys represents torque that would be my choice im not into power because of riding position its relax , good for long rides , but it does not matter if its harley or not as long its a cruiser bike no more questions ask for me i love cruisers . As long as it is classics nothing can compare to them cruisers,choppers,bobbers, trackers,scramblers, cafe,brat are my kind of motorcycles ❤❤❤
Yes you’re like us!
I do like that sporty middleweight are moving towards 700-900 twins rather than revvy 600 four pots. It's a much nicer riding experience in my opinion. That said horsepower is how hard you hit the wall and torque is how far you keep going afterwards. Stay safe.
Well deserve to be subscribe. Good one explanation right here.
Welcome to the channel 👍🏼
Nicely explained
Thanks buddy
PERFECT BEST VIDEO EXPLAINED EVER💯
Thanks buddy 👌🏼
Next Spring I’m in the market for a Heritage Classic. Just passed my CBT and theory. I’m 68. 😎
Great! I love mine! 👍🏼👍🏼
Most of the Harley Davidson bikes are air cooled pushrod engines. Pushrods mean no high rpm. Air cooled means longer stroke to prevent overheating. It's harder to cool a over square large diameter piston as the heat doesn't make it to the outside edge. So the Harley engine is limited in how much power it can make.
OK that's interesting. It's got more than enough oomph in our opinion, in the real world
@@MrDarcy-OlMan Harley Davidson bikes are fine for the Power they make if people want less weight more power they can look at other motorcycle manufacturers.
Well not a harley hater at all but i think they can do better and still maintain the air-cooled engine. Just look at the engine on the monster 1100 big number air-cooled engine with 700cc less than your typical harley
@@bazitube390 1100 monster still makes that power and torque at much higher rpm than the Harley. And less of it 75.9 ft lbs @ 6k rpm 100hp @ 7.5k rpm Harley is 119 ft lbs @ 3k rpm I actually think that's impressive. Don't even know what the horsepower is.
In other words, Harley's engines are RELIABLE. just like the HEMI's!
Torque is the real power....horse power is a measurement of how fats the engine can recoup to do it again
💯👍🏼
👏 Fair play on taking on this tricky subject. I always struggle to explain this to my not so technically minded buddies. Good analogies as usual. I think you should have demonstrated it by carrying mr Darcy up a hill then he carries you! Then a 60m sprint. I'd leave 12 year old girls out of it though. Lol. Seriously, in the anology you need to take into consideration power to weight. You obviously can squat more than mr Darcy I would suspect but he may be able to squat more in ratio to his weight. I'm clumsily trying to include power to weight ratio which, is why it's a tricky one to explain simply👍 BTW, I hope you gave mr Darcy the proverbial clip around the ear for being cheeky re not knowing the sprinter lol.
Thanks buddy! Good ideas! Certainly power to weight is a big factor!
It’s not a good analogy, no wonder you have difficulty in explaining. It’s just a simple mathematical equation...
@@marcusgeorge1825 which is?
@@pikebobstar2033 Hp = (Nm * RPM)/5252
@@marcusgeorge1825 Thanks. What about Perceived power. I mean surely this calculation does not take into account physical load e.g. solo, solo and pillion, luggage, correct tyre pressures, ambient environment for example head wind. What you "actually" perceive is much different to what is recorded on a dyno? Take same bike x 2 in this case the cb650r. One has a 10 stone rider the other has 2 x 15 stone ( rider+ pillon) each and another couple of stones of luggage. I guess wouldn't make a difference on a dyno but in real conditions would alter the perception of performance? Am always eager to be educated 👍
Love harleys and sports bikes equally. My riding style suits a ktm duke, e.g. I can appear normal with concentration, however, doesn't take much to make me a bit mental.
The Duke certainly is mental!
Power= how fast you hit the wall
Torque= how far you take that wall with you
Now that’s a brilliant analogy 👊🏼
@@vintagerealityvr mate, that supposed to be funny comment. Sorry if I failed to convey the spirit of the thing. We all know elemental principles of Newtonian physics by now. You can consider it as a comical equivalent to infinite indeterminatism paradox (what happens when irresistible force meets unmovable object). It was a joke. Unless you can divide by zero.
I think you forgot to mention engine configuration, the v twin from HD and the inline 4 from honda are 2 completely acting engines and unless you can open them right up, both are comfortable quick bikes no matter the torque, I ride the 2014 cb650f and coming from a twin engine bike before that, definitely notice the difference in engine.
Thanks bud. Just keeping it to basics
It's more cylinders for horsepower. Less cylinders (bigger pistons) for torque. These bikes. Are a perfect example of the same horsepower but. Two very different bikes
@@chrishart8548 Thank you
I prefer the sound of the CB650 over the Harley. Actually, I prefer the sound of anything over a Harley.
OK bro.
Some folks like their engines to sound like a sewing machine. No judgement.
I have another example from the 1980's. My GSXR750 could handily beat a GSRX1000 on a twisty road. Neither of us had any real torque, but he had more HP. Still though, because my ENGINE was lighter, I could beat him. On a Harley it would not really have affected the outcome, because torque.
GSXR needs a light rider. Harley doesn't much matter.
As OP says; I ride both and neither is "better". One wins on a track or 1/4 mile, the other is my favorite bike. ;-)
no idea what you say 🤷🏻♂️ you say that because h-d have so much torq load which it carry dosent matter ? and it always accelerate the same ? if yes than Nope its contradiction to acceelration = force:mass so you are wrong 😁👌🏻
amazing video, greetings from mexico.
Thanks Bruno 👍🏼
I like both. One KTM Superduke R please.
👍🏼👍🏼
I thought more torque = better acceleration. But you say the 650 accelerates quicker than the Harley. So I'm back to square one.
Haha yes it’s complicated
I think torque is for acceleration and that power is for top speed i guess
@@kwakwa917 well you have to consider that weight also matters, but yes torque Is for acceleration if you put the 650 engine in the Harley Is not going to rev up quickly and is not going to do a 4.4 seconds 0-60 even if the Power Is the same.
@@kwakwa917 this isnt true. A bike cant make more torque and less power or vice versa; it can make that torque and power in different places in its rpm range however, and the faster a torqued object spins the more power it makes.
Making power and torque at high rpm results in low torque up to a high rpm with high power.
Conversely making a high torque and power at low rpm results in a high torque and a high power at low rpm.
Think of it not as power or torque, but as how do we make power; more rpm, or more torque? Most modern engine go with the rpm option now that metallurgy and lubrication is so advanced, but for a long time torque was a better option, and it still is in some cases, like trucks, where it leads to better driveavility and reliability.
I think if I was doing a lot of town riding, taking off from lights, filtering through traffic I'd take the Honda. If I was doing a lot of touring, country miles, the Harley is a lovely, relaxing ride especially with a decent set of pipes as on the Heritage..
Ideally you'd get a 4-500 Japanese Trail bike for town, green laining and a big Harley for country, touring. Harley Davidson should get a trail bike made for them under licence - your thoughts?
Yes very good points! What about the Harley Pan America - coming soon?
@@MrDarcy-OlMan Too big. Make a Scrambler 500 version of their V-twin street bike. Royal Enfield Himalayan. Just a 500 single with road tyres. What we in Australia call a bush basher.
@@MrAndrew1953 Yes they definitely do need to and easily could do something like that.
@@MrDarcy-OlMan Harley could get it manufactured in India under licence by Enfield or in the factory in China where Harleys are built or Benelli.
@@MrAndrew1953 Yes certainly could
One thing you can't do is get more torque. It's down to having big CC. Even if a engine is de-tuned for torque. The numbers are lower. No replacement for displacement has never been truer than when it comes too torque.
Good point
Well, there is forced induction. Gives the effect of larger displacement.
@@Cundalinis_Hand do you mean a turbo?
@@chrishart8548 That or a super charger. The old school rule of thumb was superchargers for slower revving motors and turbo's for high revvers. Either way, big torque gains.
@@Cundalinis_Hand it's true. with a turbo you can get higher torque figures than horsepower. Some engines make over 1000ft lb of torque with only 550hp. That can only happen with a turbo. Gsxr750 has 125hp and 61 ft lb torque at over 10,000rpm
Thank you. A great comparison.
You're welcome! Thanks!!
Great explanation, i love to discuss things like that 👍
Power (= Watt) is just the product of torque (Nm) multiplied with revolutions per second multiplied with 2x phi (3,14).
Thats the reason why harley never had a huge amount of "horsepower", because of the slow turning crankshaft. This crankshaft cannot turn that fast because of the long stroke of the pistons, otherwise the velocity of the pistons in the cylinders would exceed.However, due to the long stroke, there is a large amount of leverage which results in enormous force of the harley engines.
P.S.: I've NEVER heard of this Christian......who? 😁
That’s an excellent addition to the subject; thank you! Christian who?
@@MrDarcy-OlMan With Christian "who" i meant this runner that you mentioned es an example. I forgot the 2nd name of him.....Coleman?
@@michis.9888 yes I know - i was joking! 🏃🏿♂️👍🏼
It should also widespread that there is no perfect motorcycle. Every motorcycle in this physical world is made out of tradeoffs. You explained one at engine level. We can take wheelbase and agility/stability; wide tyres and agility/stability; rake and trail angles, high or low centre of gravity, etc. No motorcycle is perfect because they are manufactured with a final/ideal purpose and the real use or needs a biker has. No bike is better than other, not at least outside the racetrack. Once understood this, absurd hatred or praises would be no more. We as motorcyclists should be united, no matter the brand or engine size.
@@omarsalgado9715 Yes we certainly agree with that! 💯
For a side by side comparison there was a harley bias , in the way you emphasised points.
There you go - buy the Harley
Awesome guys cheers 👍🏻
Thanks buddy 💪🏻
You had to do a drag race between HD and CB650)))
👍🏼👍🏼
You ganna carry a truck or bus on your bikes?
Great content
Thanks very much 👍🏼
@@MrDarcy-OlMan im 6ft 230lbs. Watched your video on the road king special. Stated you would stay on the heritage. Trying to decide the best decision for me. How tall are you and weight if you dont mind me asking?
Also watched the 107 vs 114 and loved the verdicit!! Is the 2018 road king special with the 107 enough for that bike?
@@moultriet.3262 Hi! Thanks buddy. I’m 6’3” If you watch our recent video on the Street Glide Special (same as Road King pretty much) that’s got some more up to date info on the subject. Also, watch our Indian Springfield video just uploaded. That’s a revelation!
@@moultriet.3262 The 107 is good but not as much grunt. It’s fine but the bike would be a lazy relaxed ride
So basically
Torque is pushing power
And Horsepower is how fast that pushing power is made
Is that right?
Yes in a nutshell 👍🏼
@@MrDarcy-OlMan ah gotcha!
@@mociczyczki I’m not reading all that 💀
If the 1.8 lt Harley is the Rock... Who is the 2.5 lt Triumph Rocket?
Fantastic quality video guys - as always!
Must be Mr Olympia! Thanks Jet 👊🏼
@@MrDarcy-OlMan - Ronnie Coleman (8 times Mr. Olympia) versus Christian Coleman
@@chirag4 We should have thought of that! 💪🏿
@@chirag4 ha ha ... goodone
Rented a Morgan three wheeler with the 2 ltr S&S X wedge 114.4 lb.-ft. @3000 rpm so I know what you mean back wheel would spin if you sneezed in the first 3 gears
Yes exactly! 👊🏼
Therefore, thus, QED the Harley is much better than some ol' whiny crotch rocket. I'm not being bias _at all_ ! ;)
Oh, and the Ol' Man's Heritage pipes sound so boss.
We'd agree with that
Nice one 👌
Thanks bud
Great explanation!
Thanks buddy
Now repeat the test with the cb1000r and you will see how these guys just try to justify the HD. Like you tho 😋
Maybe one day 👊🏼
Can I please come work for you guys?
We don’t even get enough money for ourselves yet!
@@MrDarcy-OlMan who said anything about money???Just riding bikes is enough hehehe
@@Brigande haha yes
The way I usually explain the difference between torque and power is, a race horse has lots of power, a plow horse has lots of torque. Personally I have always preferred the plow horse.
No.
I miss Tourqe, ive had to get rid of my diesel Car because of the London ULEZ and now have a petrol non turbo and most of time in London just feels underwhelming
Yea I get that 👍🏼
Torque is the "push" that moves your car. Power on the other hand, is the output ie. speed and acceleration that results from that "push".
nope 👍🏻 its ridiculous 🤣 however alot people think like this that power is something ehich is calculate from some silly formula and do nothing and what you only feel is torque which acceelrate engine to biger rpm at which is power 🤣🤮 its total bull💩 🤮 what you feel depend on how much power engine generate at specified given vehicle velocity 😎👍🏻 feg 100 hp 100 nm at engine crank at 100 km/h push you into seat 10 times stronger than 10 hp 1000nm at engine crank also at 100 km/h go test this and you find out its true 😎👍🏻
No.
@@mociczyczki torque is FORCE times LENGTH. Force in the case, is the combustion from air-fuel mixture ignited by a spark plug which pushes the piston which then turns the crankshaft. Length in this case is the distance from the crankpin to wherever is the center of the crankshaft. The spinning motion of the crankshaft is then transferred to the transmission wherein the speed varies depending on the gear ratio. From the transmission, it will then spin the driveshaft and finally spins the wheel thus moving the vehicle. This is what I meant when I say, torque is something that moves your vehicle.
Power on the other hand is. . . Well, I don't have to explain it, you wouldn't understand anyway. I doubt you understood my torque explanation, but I tried nonetheless.
Reply to this comment again when you hàve a grasp on basic(Newtonian) physics. Until then, stfu.
Also, please improve your grammar, I can barely understand what you are saying.
@@atlasatlantis8447 yes
@@jimmoriarty6964 100hp at 20 k rpm at 100 km / h vehicle velocity give lesss drive wheel axis output torque but more contact path force thus push you into seat stronger generated more Gforce than 50 hp at 1 k rpm also at 100 km /h which generated much more engine crank torque and out put drive wheel axis torque assuming it have biger drive wheel radious 👍🏻 first egzample exert at 100 km/h 2 times biger thrust force 2683N vs 1341,5N in the same time have 10 times less engine crank torque than 2 egzample 35 nm vs 350 nm around like you see you can have waaay more torque both on rngine crank and on drive wheel axis and still much less contact path force / thrust 🌪🤷🏻♂️ drive wheel axis is pointless at given velocity as long as whell radious is diffrent you can manipulate gearing to wheel radious ratio thus generate diffrent level of drive wheel torque but it dosent matter what be the diffrenc at drive wheel axis torque at given velocity level of power determined Thrust 😎 feg lets take into co sideration me first egzample so 100 hp at 20 k rpm where engine makes 35 nm let say we have 0,1 metres radious drive wheel so 0,628 m around circle let say we measured thrust at 100 km/h so 27,8 m/s around i give aproximate values not super precise to 10 place after decimal so such we have 20000 engine rpm:2656 whell rpm =7,5 final ratio x 35 nm = 262 nm at drive wheel axis only but :wheel radious 0,1 m = 2620 N thrust this is true force which drive wehicle forward i dont i cluding drive train loses and like i. write i give not suepr precise but aproximate value thats why it differ to 2683 N earlier claimed 👍🏻 now let assume we put wheel which have 1 metres radious also for 100 km /h at 100 hp 35 nm at 20000 rpm engine crank ok so such 20000 rpm:265,6 wheel rpm = 75 final ratio multiple be engine crank nm 35 nm = now we have 10 tomes biger drive wheel axis torque cos 2620 nm 😎 but what happen next is biger wheel radious eat this and exert egzacle the same output thrust like in first egzample 🤷🏻♂️👍🏻 cos 2620 nm now we must divide be 1 m and not be 0,1 m = also 2620 N thrust 🤷🏻♂️ like you see you can manipulate drive train gearing to wjeel radious ratio but if power at given velocity stay the same you always get egzacly the same output true real brutal force at conact path = thrust at this velocity 👍🏻🥳 as long as power level at given bvehicle velocity wont change as long you cant chonge contact path force aka thrust at this velocity its happen beacuse watt :m/s = force 😁dosent matter what you domwith gearing and drive wheel radious if you dont change power level at given velocity forget about more thrust at this velocity just forget about it 😁👌🏻
Great way of explaining it 👍
Thanks buddy 👍🏼
ok i got it rhinoceros are slower than Cheetahs. I did not understand the part when they carry each other up hill 😅. Did Cheetahs eat the Rhinoceros ?
No the Rhinoceros squashed the Cheetah! 👍🏼
@@MrDarcy-OlMan hahaha love your sense of humour
Who's Christian Coleman?
Look him up! World record 60m! 👍🏼
@@MrDarcy-OlMan Haha! Couldn't help it!
@@robiulahmed yeah we got it bro 👊🏼
This is so helpful
Ozm video bro's 😍
Thanks 🤗 Much appreciated
There is no difference. Torque is a component of power. Your motorcycle's engine is equivalent to you atop a bicycle. Neither of you is "torquey." You eat things that give you energy, then you expend it at some rate on the pedals. Similarly, when gas burns it expends energy at some rate on the crank via the piston rods. Using gear ratios, you can make the torque at the rear wheel anything you like. Certain engines just may not have the power to spin the tire at certain rpms.
Torque is really a meaningless graph. If one engine makes more power at some rpm than another, then it will make more torque at that rpm. It just how the math works.
The reason a HD is more torquey than a Honda 4 is that the HD makes more power at lower rpms than the Honda.
Engines make power at every rpm they run at. It's not a high rpm thing. Forget torque curves. You want to know which engine will more easily pull a fat woman up a hill, just lay the power curves of the engine over one another. The one that makes more power at lower rpms will be better at pulling fat women or stumps.
The engine that makes the most peak power will go the fastest (all else being equal). It just may take longer to get up to speed. If you can keep an engine with more peak power on boil, it will win races on a track. HDs are better at making real world power for those of us without an immediate death wish.
Thanks for your comments bro
Different tools for different jobs.
Yes that’s true 👍🏼
in others word each bike got it different purpose
Absolutely 👍🏻
👍
👍🏼
I'm still confused lol. Can someone explain it to me without using weight lifting as an example? Bikes don't weight lift and I'm autistic so I take everything literally. haha.
Haha yeah.
A high torque bike can easily go along at low rpm and can accelerate or go up hill effortlessly without changing down a gear, often, to increase revs as it doesn't need many rpm to overcome resistance.
A high powered bike produces power at higher rpm usually and therefore needs to rev, and can rev up easily, but more often than not doesn't pull very well at lower rpm.
A Triumph Speed Triple at 2500 rpm struggles whereas a BMW R18 at 2500 is in it's best zone. At high rpm the Speed Triple accelerates rapidly up to well over 10,000rpm, whereas the R18 loses puff at late 4750 rpm
Hahahaha 🤣 ...funny guy, what, who, whaaaaa the guy is retired!! LoL
Thanks buddy 👍🏼😁
Why are Harleys always so load ?
Because majority of them have aftermarket exhausts, stock they aren’t loud
@@MrDarcy-OlMan but why do they by aftermarket ones? To be load, but why... so people look at them? Never understood load motorcycles, driving motorcycles for more than 40 years myself...
@@patrickmeylemans9627 It’s another dimension to the experience. The V-Twin sounds incredible. Most people have loud pipes because they enjoy the sound themselves, not for looks from others. It also puts you at one with the motorcycle.
@@MrDarcy-OlMan and what about all the other people not sitting on the bike, and the nature where one is passing? In Europe more and more road controls on motorbikes, why... because some of them are extreme loud... they are driving with ear protections...sorry a good sound ok but many bikes from a certain brand are way too load. Just my 2 cents
@@patrickmeylemans9627 Loud pipes save lives; including nature
Ooo a butterfly 😂😂
It’s normally a hornet!
I was thinking where abouts in the UK are you to have such dry weather? Because in Somerset all we have had recently is constant rain and no butterflies 🤣
@@fraserwilliamson5330 we filmed this in the summer! We’re in windy Leicestershire
That would explain the weather 🤣
For its weight and capacity Harley are not even high in torque. You could have found a 'crotch rocket' with more torque, half the weight and capacity.
The main difference lies that you would need to rev up the crotch rocket to the red line to generate that maximum torque, whereas in the H-D it can be generated from the very low end in the rpm range. In other words, it is much more satisfying to ride in a mountain with an engine that pushes hard with little effort. For most of us who like cruisers, it is not our idea to stress the engine for recreational rides, besides the fact that the riding position of a crotch rocket is never the best or optimal for long trips. Motorcycles have their purposes; a sport bike is the best only in a racetrack.
@@omarsalgado9715 There are plenty of torquey Japanese bikes that make more bottom end power with less weight and less capacity. I have a 20 year old BMW that makes more torque at lower revs with much smaller engine.
@@parsivalshorse Name a few, please, better if you put specs altogether.
@@omarsalgado9715 Well the Suzuki M1800R makes substantially more torque at lower RPM and with nearly 50% more horsepower. Harley are a very archaic engine.
@@omarsalgado9715 So does the Honda Goldwing. BMW K1600 GT.
Torque and Power cannot be considered as separate entities. Power = Torque x Revs. The Harley has more low rev power than the Honda and the Honda has more high rev power than the Harley. Using "torque" as an adjective to describe the characteristics of an engine is commonplace but misleading. Far more informative to describe where in the rev range that the bulk of the power is produced. i.e. low end power or top end power. Just get "torque" out of your head it tells us nothing about how effectively the engine can get the motorcycle up the road. It's all about POWER!
Good points. You sound like Jeremy Clarkson! 👊🏼
I agree with almost you wrote, but I differ that it is all about power. If it were, there would be only and only one engine for all the purposes and needs, but we are far from that being a truth. For torque (force; work) and power (amount of work in a given time), which are the two sides of one coin, a torque/hp vs rpm graph is the most useful tool to dig into the behaviour of an engine, and that departs from the very physics aspect (bore, stroke, rod length, etc.). Since no one riding on public roads is likely to take the engine to the red line permanently, those kind of graphs can guide a rider to take advantage of the engine behaviour, so he can know how to suit it to his riding style. More than being about power, it is more about locating the sweetspot that matches our riding style or needs.
@@omarsalgado9715 Absolutely. Thats exactly why I generally keep the Harley between 2500rpm and 3500rpm
These poor sheeps got graffiti on dem sides. Damn these vandals. I hope they catch'em!
lol
So you need steroids like the rock 🤔
Yes lot’s 👊🏼
@@MrDarcy-OlMan but thats not natural 😯 power
@@RanGer-498 or more spinach like Popeye! 👍🏼
Honda is Honda and not Harley
hhehhe NOPE :x well not egzacly but close ;) the comparision beewten some strongman and some sprinter welll it was queit good howver not egzacly :x with lil girl and you onsome run vs in gym on heavveweight this was worse egzample ;) now im explain you why because i not like most people go very deep in this theme and i know egzacly how it goes :x =honda 64 nm at 8500 rpm vs heritage 114 161 nm at 3000 rpm ok so if we calculate with how much force both setup spin wheeel at the same driving velocity you probably may be surprise :x because .... its cb 650 f which produce more force push you forward at peak torque at the same vvelocity preciselly speaking cb 650 f will generate 13% more tractive force than heritage 114 at the same velocity :) (dont including diffrenc in powerlosesss at drive train ) so its not true harley will better go up hill or be able to pull biger weight :x torq can be conpensate be more engine rpm and vice versa so such 161 nm at 3000 rpm give the same tractibe force as let say 80,5 nm at 6000 rpm or 40,25 nm at 12000 rpm the point is for bike like heritage fast spin engine does not fit and 99% customer will not buy heritage with cb 650 f engine because rpm kill theyr ears they like huge explosion in cylinders with long time beetwen those explosion whillle cb 650 f is smooth and small explosion in cyll happen so often that it generate completely diffrent sound characteristic :x biger torq literallly lower the turnover at which we get intresting us POWER :) so for achieve the same results egzacly in cb 650 f like in heritage 114 you need reduce gear in cb650 f for spin more rpm beside diffrent in weight both bike at some point rpm cb will produce the same tractive force at the same velocity as heritage 114 and this rpm be offcorse biger :X PERIOD END OF STORY ., if we comapre tractive force at whell at the same velocity 50 nm at 10000 rpm to 100 nm at 5000 rpm forcemeter or like you want dyno show egzacly the same force in NEWTONS for egzample 100 nm at 5000 rpm give more tractve force than for egzample 50 nm at 7500 rpm but less than for egzample 50 nm at 11000 rpm !!! :) gretings .and if both this bike have similar power reason why cb 650 f accelerate faster is not higher rpm :D dont be ridiculous true reason is that h-d weight aloot more and if engine have the same power it cant accelerate bigger weight at the same acceleration rate level beause is to wweak for this no matter how big torq it will prodyce at crank :xwatch this th-cam.com/video/vHYw5HIJ53U/w-d-xo.html at some points he was also wrong but much less than you ., now why egzample with young girl and you was wrong ??? because force is acceleration multiple be weight :) ... for better acceleratuion the same weight you need more POWER for the same acceleration niger weight you need more ...POWER its not like you say that power is speed and torque is slow weight force bullshit :D not even close not for combustion engine with gear box :) like im write 50 nm of torq at 10000 rpm at the same velocity let say 1 km/h will pull up 5 times bigger weight from the lawn on your balconny for egzample than for egzample 100 nm at 1000 rpm or it will pull the same weight 5 times faster :) !!!!!!!!!!!!!! gretings .