MMMmm, its a loaded question for Me. I'd be willing to pay for a solid product. Most *maybe would be about $1300... If the budget is $1500 there are a lot of used frames out there for around that price. If the geometry checked out, and *one could stretch the budget to $1700, I'd hands down say pick up an Allez. That's a SOLID bike for the money and I'd even say that its a carbon killer to some degree. Love the content Patty! #RobbArmstrong
About you reviewing things, remember, people are always going to find a problem if they want to. Absolutely love your content, so keep up the excellent work
I've ridden my Attack for 6 months now and it's quite frankly worth the price I paid. The build quality is at least as good as any other comparable western frame. I've ridden everything from S-works Aethos to Tarmac to Madone to Canyon Aeroad, and at least in terms of build quality there is nothing to be ashamed of. What it does lack is a prestigious name on the side. Some people care about flexing brands at the coffee stop. I care about flexing watts, so name on the components is irrelevant if the quality is there. As far as geometry, mine fits me like a glove, but as you say, I have long legs and short torso so we definitely agree there. My CRW wheels are also the 5060s and I also live in a very windy area, but I haven't noticed any issues with instability. This is odd because I'm a bit lighter than you, so if anything I should be blown around a bit more. The CRW pros: weight is insanely light and they are incredibly snappy as a result. They are also incredibly stiff, which aids the snappiness. cons for me are I've had issues cornering at speed with them like in a crit, but this is something I've experienced with every wheelset using Conti 5ks, so I'm going to chalk it up to those tires being fast in a straight line but handling poorly.
Another person mention the GP5000s and stability. This has only been an issue on my CRWs. Ive raced GP5000s both road and crits with no issues, but I’m not comfortable yet using the CRWs for that purpose. I don’t love the idea of using a 30c up front but that’s the only variable I haven’t tested yet.
Wider wheels dont necessarily mean more stable, and the craft wheels dont have a profile that would lend itself to stability. 1. Way too wide for the chord length. Its essentially like a square block, with a really wide tail. With a 30mm tire, the total chord length would be about 75mm, with 34mm width, this is 2:1. There is basically zero chance for any stable air around this structure. 2. Round "U" shape. The trailing edge of the front wheel is a very round shape, which is great for strength. This allows them to make it really light and minimize material but its poor for aerodynamics. 3. Late bulge. (😂) the rim shape has the widest part about in the middle of the rim, so including the tire, its 2/3 of the way back. I've tried a couple wheels like this and its not great for stability. And it makes sense, with most of the length of the chord being under compression, if you have any sidewind the downwind side is going to get buffeted. Fundamentally its a shape for strength, meaning they can reduce the material, but looking at it its not going to be fast or stable.
I would love to buy a chinese frame but there just to small for me. But i guess making a 61cm frame is just not a smart busines decision for the chinese market.
I bought a TT frame, open mold, most brands call it the TT912. It has a long reach and fits something like a 61cm road bike. Pretty stiff and very fast too. Just put some road bars on.
Yep I am right there with you on the price. I think it’s just 300-$400 too expensive to justify. I’m currently riding an elves Falath evo and that was the exact price point I was looking for, good balance between good value and good QC (although the frame is a bit heavy)
Looks a lot like a SL7 to me. I’ve bought a young used frameset SL7 SW including cockpit for €3100. A lot more money but the resale price is a lot higher as well and you’ll get a guaranteed standard. Your Tavelo looks ace!
I'm fascinated by your experience with the Craft 5060 wheels. I also have a set, and intentionally took them out on a day that I typically reserve some shallow-section wheels for, specifically to test their steering response in nasty wind conditions. Winds that day were 20-25mph with gusts over 30. On my Giant TCR, I did not experience nearly as much wind grab as I had expected. I roll on 28mm(nominal) Schwalbe Pro One tires, which measure 31+ on the front and 29+ on the rear. I can't say how that compares to the Conti tires, as I haven't installed those on these wheels, but it might be worth checking, and if it turns out that my tire profile is wider, perhaps it would be worth you trying a 30 on the front to see if that changes your experience. I know that in the past, Conti has measured closer to the labeled width on some of my friends' wheels. I HAVE had some other issues with the Craft wheels - specifically front bearing binding - but the push I get from the wind has seemed notably less than I have experienced from other wheels of a similar depth.
Fantastic breakdown right here. I do have a set of GP5000 STR in 30mm. Gonna pair the wheels to my SL8 and if I experience similar instability I will for sure try 30c up front. Other than in extreme conditions and speeds I really love the wheels. Top 3 favorite sure along with my Magene Exar Ultra 508 and Hyper D67s.
Keep up the good work. You keep getting better and better at reviews. Don't worry too much about the state of bike reviewing. There is a general pushback against experts in favor of loud voices who wanted a bigger platform. The experts pushed back to protect their hard earned credentials. Everyone forgot that expertise and experience are both valuable. That said, I am engineer and I know you are repeating claims from elsewhere that lightweight wheels are less stable and while sort of true, the math doesn't really check out in terms of that being something that would affect an experienced rider like you as much as it has here. Likely the issue is with the rim shape. I also dont mind the price of chinese brands if they offer enough value and service in the D2C models. Its a pretty steep hill to climb though and you cant always make every customer happy. Cyclists cant be expected to be professionals and its always your fault as the brand...so I dont envy the challenges that Seka, Elilee, and Tavelo face.
Great breakdown and I also appreciate your kind words. Like my TH-cam channel, every brand has to start somewhere. Another problem is the overt approach to criticize and be skeptical of any and every new brand/frame introduced to the market. I'm convinced people just naturally want to be negative.
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 your content is getting better and better just like your bikes...lol..I've watched you improve over the years..I definitely put cyclist on to your channel..keep up the great work bro 💯💯💯
Good stuff man. Just keep doing you, the reviews from someone that likes bikes are still valid! Stoked to see your SL8 review. I agree about higher prices being a weird place, but I think bikes like Winspace will start getting name recognition and earn their place im Western brand price land.
Hi Patrick How do you know or can tell that the front stability issues that you mentioned is due to the wheels and not due to the geometry? Did you try to compare their behavior on a different bikes ? Sometimes the stability issues comes from the whole package and not just from the wheels. It will be interesting to try this ❤ 🙏🏼
Fantastic point. I experienced similar instability using the wheels on my Giant Propel. Good news is these wheels will be going on my Tarmac SL8 for further consideration. What I also suspect is just maybe my bike fit/positioning lends itself to these issues, then again I have deeper wheels that are more stable. Besides being extremely windy conditions the wheels are just fantastic.
Good looking ride. Point well made re the price difference vs other premium brands. Fact is it would be easier for you to resell the Tarmac, Giant vs Tavelo. Also recall being told the attack is not UCI certified which further limits it reach (arrow will be). There is a really fit guy at my GYM who spends at least 3 hours daily on a Eurobike (Xc550 for sale full bike at Wallmart for 220 usd) and has no complaints
The Attack is UCI-approved under a different boutique brand name, used specifically in another Asian market. There are UCI conti/pro teams using this exact frame. Resell though is important simply in order for me to recoup money to fund my next western brand bike build. Thanks for chiming in Cornel!
I broke my front wheel which was a 50mm. Was hard to control in the crosswinds we get here. So I had to put my 30mm front wheel in and now its a dream in the crosswinds and I can go anywhere, anytime without having to take my old training bike. Looks a bit funny, but works really well!
@@PatrickLino I kept my yoeleo sat50 on the back but just a training wheel on the front. Going to order another 50mm rim from yoeleo for the flatter rolling stuff, and lace it up as spokes/hub are fine. And prob look for a ~35mm climbing wheelset as lots of steep hills around here. Thinking farsports atm :) Still might rock the hot rod look though haha
As far as the cost of Chinese frame goes, IMO it's still way less than a big-brand frame. In addition, the cost of building a bike is almost always going to be higher than buying a stock bike with similar specs. Jesse Coyle said it the best on the latest Nero show; if you have the exact specifications, and it's going to lead you to replace many of the parts that come with the bike, then a custom build may be cheaper in the long run. Whereas, if a bike comes pretty much exactly what you want, then it's cheaper that direction. Manufactures are able to buy parts at OEM cost, and it's massively less than the MSRP costs that consumers pay.
@@PatrickLino the regular version of the arrow is $1880 and that includes the integrated handlebar. The ultralight edition is $2380 but also with integrated handlebar
Thanks James! High speeds (above 30mph) plus crazy cross-winds (+20mph gusts). I plan to use these on my Tarmac SL8 just to verify the instability, but I have already had the same experience when paired to my Giant Propel.
The pricing to me must be competitive to a 2nd hand western brand frame. Why to pay premium for something that might end up being a quality/support nightmare... The wheel suppliers seems to have a different understanding of their price positioning. Speaking about that, maybe the more recentbprice jumps in the global market from CHN vendors is to level up their offering in the eyes of the local CHN customers which is the main target for most brands.
What sets the Craft wheels apart from the other brands on the market ie: Drive Helix or Lun wheels? What justifies the hope around them, is it just the weight because I have a set of Drive Helix 68D's and the freebody compared between the two seem night an day in overall finish and quality. The 200g difference Im sure is a selling point but going 50mm+ in depth then weight isnt really selling point but moreso the aero gains and my Helix's at 55-61mm in the front and 62-68mm in the rear hold a line pretty well in a crosswind or gust senario, I cant tell the difference between them and my 50mm wheels but both have the wave design.
I haven't tried the new Drive Helix so I can't comment on that. No one single aspect of the CRW wheels lives in a vacuum. The wheels are lightweight, stiff, yet simply floats over bad pavement due to the smaller number of spokes. The fit and finish is fantastic especially on the tubeless rim tape. End of the day you gotta vote with your wallet in terms of what you value the most. My 2 sets of Elite Drive wheels are lightweight but I don't find them very stiff.
Nice review... as always. We thank you!!! The Tavelo Arow says 'more aero and lighter', and that's for the base version which is just $300 more than the attack... I haven't looked at the geometry, but I imagine the Arow is more aggressive geometry than the attack. Would be great to have a light aero comfortable bike. I'm curious to see Joe's continental race team frame on his website, but I forget which manufacturer he was using.
I still would love to get my hands on the new Tavelo Arow. The geometry of that frame should effectively replace both my Attack and Winspace T1500 frame in a single go. Then again, my SL8 will probably do that haha. The silver paint job on the Arow looks great.
The main reason to buy domestic is for customer service otherwise Here's a list of 10 US domestic bike brands that have Asian manufacturers: 1. Specialized Bicycles 2. Trek Bikes 3. Giant Bicycles 4. Cannondale 5. Santa Cruz Bicycles 6. Yeti Cycles 7. Pivot Cycles 8. Diamondback Bicycles 9. Kona Bikes 10. Intense Cycles. How much is domestic customer service worth is the real question?
You definitely need above a 30 for GP 5000. I had that problem with my Yoeleo 50/88 wheels. Those 25 and 28 were terrible it those crosswinds! My 32 wheels are much better and faster. My 30s handle better, too. I'm not going back to 28s. You still will feel that wind in Chicago when it's 15 mph and above. It was a few weeks ago when we had those 25 mph winds.
Well, next up to review could be their new Arow frame If the quality is as high as you and others are saying it is definitely worth the money. Ive seen people write that this Attack frame is the same as the current main frame sold by Nich in Thailand and they charge way more than Tavelo. I'd be interested in hearing hiw the Arow compares to the Propel, (and Win space 1500, and Allez sprint). With the Arow being - even by name - more of a full aero frame, it'd be a more direct competitor to the Propel One question - you spoke a lot about how the bike feels while climbing. Are you doing those comparisons using the same wheels or at least very similar wheel weights?
I've been in contact with Tavelo on purchasing the Arow frameset. Production times are pretty slow. Hopefully my frame will be finished by end of the summer. And correct, I am using these wheels across a variety frames (Tavelo Attack, Tarmac SL8, and Giant Propel).
I like the Chinese framesets, but they do not fit me, not even close - they are for 20 somethings -I'm 54- Argon 18 Krypton fits me perfectly. The only problem I have with Chinese wheelsets are the rear hubs and probably not being able to get a freehub in 5 or 10 years. I bought some Light Bicyle custom rims and they are great, laced to DT hubs. (Like the first 'money shot' photo taken in the setting sun - well composed!)
Endurance and comfort, respectively, are two independent variables. A frame's geometry will dictate endurance more so than the subjective properties of comfort. With the correct bike fit position for your riding style, optimized contact points, and wide tires, most bikes including this one can be comfortable.
Curious: I'm finding the same thing with my Elite Drive 50D front wheel. I feel like it's a little unstable in descents and crosswinds. Thinking about moving on from them. I know you have the same set, would you say the same about your Elite wheels? Also, do you have any recommendations on what to replace my set with if I wanted a little less depth while keeping in the 1300-1400gram range?
@@PatrickLino so is this Tavelo licensing out to other or out Tavelo being the Licensees? Because if their the Licensees and they are rising the prices, while still being reasonable, I think the case for this vs other brands gets harder
@@EJD200This would be a question for Tavelo or whomever sells their frames because I don’t know. The important thing is to vote with your wallet, and look for brands which provide aspects which you value.
Hey Patrick, I’m looking for a new carbon spoke wheel set and have come down to the Far Sports S5 or the CRW 5055 (will run these on 28mm GP5K’s). If you had to pick a set to run on an aero frame, which would you choose?
I have not used either of the wheels you mentioned, so my opinion is probably invalid. But I will say spend as much as your budget will allow, which would favor the CRW5055s.
@@PatrickLino Is a good unit but I have had it since release day back in 2017 and I guess I just need something different. What called my attention about Wahoo is how good the screen looks during the day! I live in Florida and is sunny all year so a screen like the wahoo should be better I think. I also like how you can highlight different metrics and of course the climb feature ( summit ? ) how it opens without having to load a course. Edge 1030 has climb pro but you need a course running for it to work. Only the new garmin units support it without a course.
@@PatrickLino There's more competition in wheels to keep prices affordable. I think the chinese brands are trying be on the same level as the mainstream brands for frames by charging the same. But that will back fire.
I wanted this paintjob and they wanted 500$ extra lmao :) maybe don't advertise is on your social media if it's 500$ extra. Tavelo is silly and won't deal with them after this.
@@PatrickLino tavelo attack. I like yours and wanted the same paintjob. When they wanted extra 500$ for little black fade on their stock white frame I told them sayonara
@@PatrickLino it's not on panda podium as a choice so it looks like it's not standard. Looks like you got a special treatment. That's why I told them to gtfo and I am done with them. Would rather use my money for other brand.
![[TH] 2024 PMSL SEA Finals D1 | Fall | ยิงต้องโหด ให้เหมือนโกรธกันมาก่อน](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/OnTdfGySmds/mqdefault.jpg)
How much would YOU pay for a Chinese (branded) frameset?
400 USD - 1,250 USD
@@ariffau VERY fair.
Tavelo and Lykos are the two premium brands. Whatever they are going for is what I'd pay.
MMMmm, its a loaded question for Me. I'd be willing to pay for a solid product. Most *maybe would be about $1300... If the budget is $1500 there are a lot of used frames out there for around that price. If the geometry checked out, and *one could stretch the budget to $1700, I'd hands down say pick up an Allez. That's a SOLID bike for the money and I'd even say that its a carbon killer to some degree. Love the content Patty!
#RobbArmstrong
@@robbarmstrong8702 Also a very fair answer!
About you reviewing things, remember, people are always going to find a problem if they want to. Absolutely love your content, so keep up the excellent work
This is a very good point to remember. Much appreciated.
I've ridden my Attack for 6 months now and it's quite frankly worth the price I paid. The build quality is at least as good as any other comparable western frame. I've ridden everything from S-works Aethos to Tarmac to Madone to Canyon Aeroad, and at least in terms of build quality there is nothing to be ashamed of. What it does lack is a prestigious name on the side. Some people care about flexing brands at the coffee stop. I care about flexing watts, so name on the components is irrelevant if the quality is there.
As far as geometry, mine fits me like a glove, but as you say, I have long legs and short torso so we definitely agree there.
My CRW wheels are also the 5060s and I also live in a very windy area, but I haven't noticed any issues with instability. This is odd because I'm a bit lighter than you, so if anything I should be blown around a bit more. The CRW pros: weight is insanely light and they are incredibly snappy as a result. They are also incredibly stiff, which aids the snappiness. cons for me are I've had issues cornering at speed with them like in a crit, but this is something I've experienced with every wheelset using Conti 5ks, so I'm going to chalk it up to those tires being fast in a straight line but handling poorly.
Another person mention the GP5000s and stability. This has only been an issue on my CRWs. Ive raced GP5000s both road and crits with no issues, but I’m not comfortable yet using the CRWs for that purpose. I don’t love the idea of using a 30c up front but that’s the only variable I haven’t tested yet.
pretty sure i rode by at 11:13. i'm a huge fan and plan on getting the magene pes p505 due to your review. keep up the awesome work!
Wicked! Thanks for watching. See you out there soon.
They sure had some super nice paint jobs on display at the Shanghai bike show!
Yup! Tavelo and Winspace make great quality paint jobs.
That's such a good looking build 🤩
PANDA PANDA!
Awesome, comprehensive review Sir! I am very surprised to hear that front wheel depth did poorly in crosswinds. Must have been howling
love your content, Luis!
Thanks Luis! Maybe I'll try and run a 30c tire at the front to see if that helps. Have a great weekend my friend!
Some of these semi-deep carbon spoked wheels are *breezy. "Cough cough, Helix 57d" 👀
#RobbArmstrong
Wider wheels dont necessarily mean more stable, and the craft wheels dont have a profile that would lend itself to stability.
1. Way too wide for the chord length. Its essentially like a square block, with a really wide tail. With a 30mm tire, the total chord length would be about 75mm, with 34mm width, this is 2:1. There is basically zero chance for any stable air around this structure.
2. Round "U" shape. The trailing edge of the front wheel is a very round shape, which is great for strength. This allows them to make it really light and minimize material but its poor for aerodynamics.
3. Late bulge. (😂) the rim shape has the widest part about in the middle of the rim, so including the tire, its 2/3 of the way back. I've tried a couple wheels like this and its not great for stability. And it makes sense, with most of the length of the chord being under compression, if you have any sidewind the downwind side is going to get buffeted.
Fundamentally its a shape for strength, meaning they can reduce the material, but looking at it its not going to be fast or stable.
I would love to buy a chinese frame but there just to small for me. But i guess making a 61cm frame is just not a smart busines decision for the chinese market.
Sizing is been an issue ever since I started my channel.
@@PatrickLino and every time they get me with xl and then seeing its a 56 or 58.. But thanks for the great content sir.
I bought a TT frame, open mold, most brands call it the TT912. It has a long reach and fits something like a 61cm road bike. Pretty stiff and very fast too. Just put some road bars on.
Yep I am right there with you on the price. I think it’s just 300-$400 too expensive to justify. I’m currently riding an elves Falath evo and that was the exact price point I was looking for, good balance between good value and good QC (although the frame is a bit heavy)
What have been some of the highlights to your Falath Evo?? Thanks for watching btw!
As others have noted, some people just want to hate for hating sake. Just keep up the good work.
Thanks David! Gotta love the internet.
As Taylor wisely said: "Haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate"
@@galenkehler shake shake shake shake!
Looks a lot like a SL7 to me. I’ve bought a young used frameset SL7 SW including cockpit for €3100. A lot more money but the resale price is a lot higher as well and you’ll get a guaranteed standard. Your Tavelo looks ace!
The Tavelo has such a clean and classic look. I'm usually not a fan of white, but it works on this bike.
I'm fascinated by your experience with the Craft 5060 wheels. I also have a set, and intentionally took them out on a day that I typically reserve some shallow-section wheels for, specifically to test their steering response in nasty wind conditions. Winds that day were 20-25mph with gusts over 30. On my Giant TCR, I did not experience nearly as much wind grab as I had expected. I roll on 28mm(nominal) Schwalbe Pro One tires, which measure 31+ on the front and 29+ on the rear. I can't say how that compares to the Conti tires, as I haven't installed those on these wheels, but it might be worth checking, and if it turns out that my tire profile is wider, perhaps it would be worth you trying a 30 on the front to see if that changes your experience. I know that in the past, Conti has measured closer to the labeled width on some of my friends' wheels. I HAVE had some other issues with the Craft wheels - specifically front bearing binding - but the push I get from the wind has seemed notably less than I have experienced from other wheels of a similar depth.
Fantastic breakdown right here. I do have a set of GP5000 STR in 30mm. Gonna pair the wheels to my SL8 and if I experience similar instability I will for sure try 30c up front. Other than in extreme conditions and speeds I really love the wheels. Top 3 favorite sure along with my Magene Exar Ultra 508 and Hyper D67s.
Keep up the good work. You keep getting better and better at reviews.
Don't worry too much about the state of bike reviewing. There is a general pushback against experts in favor of loud voices who wanted a bigger platform. The experts pushed back to protect their hard earned credentials. Everyone forgot that expertise and experience are both valuable.
That said, I am engineer and I know you are repeating claims from elsewhere that lightweight wheels are less stable and while sort of true, the math doesn't really check out in terms of that being something that would affect an experienced rider like you as much as it has here. Likely the issue is with the rim shape.
I also dont mind the price of chinese brands if they offer enough value and service in the D2C models. Its a pretty steep hill to climb though and you cant always make every customer happy. Cyclists cant be expected to be professionals and its always your fault as the brand...so I dont envy the challenges that Seka, Elilee, and Tavelo face.
Great breakdown and I also appreciate your kind words. Like my TH-cam channel, every brand has to start somewhere. Another problem is the overt approach to criticize and be skeptical of any and every new brand/frame introduced to the market. I'm convinced people just naturally want to be negative.
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 your content is getting better and better just like your bikes...lol..I've watched you improve over the years..I definitely put cyclist on to your channel..keep up the great work bro 💯💯💯
aye thanks Jay. I'm hoping I can keep the momentum going through the summer.
That frame color fade is classic and classy.
Thanks for watching!
Good stuff man. Just keep doing you, the reviews from someone that likes bikes are still valid! Stoked to see your SL8 review. I agree about higher prices being a weird place, but I think bikes like Winspace will start getting name recognition and earn their place im Western brand price land.
"reviews from someone that likes bikes" - Thanks, I really need to make this my personal ethos. Have a great weekend.
Hi Patrick
How do you know or can tell that the front stability issues that you mentioned is due to the wheels and not due to the geometry? Did you try to compare their behavior on a different bikes ?
Sometimes the stability issues comes from the whole package and not just from the wheels.
It will be interesting to try this ❤ 🙏🏼
Fantastic point. I experienced similar instability using the wheels on my Giant Propel. Good news is these wheels will be going on my Tarmac SL8 for further consideration. What I also suspect is just maybe my bike fit/positioning lends itself to these issues, then again I have deeper wheels that are more stable. Besides being extremely windy conditions the wheels are just fantastic.
Good looking ride. Point well made re the price difference vs other premium brands. Fact is it would be easier for you to resell the Tarmac, Giant vs Tavelo. Also recall being told the attack is not UCI certified which further limits it reach (arrow will be). There is a really fit guy at my GYM who spends at least 3 hours daily on a Eurobike (Xc550 for sale full bike at Wallmart for 220 usd) and has no complaints
The Attack is UCI-approved under a different boutique brand name, used specifically in another Asian market. There are UCI conti/pro teams using this exact frame. Resell though is important simply in order for me to recoup money to fund my next western brand bike build. Thanks for chiming in Cornel!
I broke my front wheel which was a 50mm. Was hard to control in the crosswinds we get here. So I had to put my 30mm front wheel in and now its a dream in the crosswinds and I can go anywhere, anytime without having to take my old training bike. Looks a bit funny, but works really well!
Nice. Which wheels are you using?
@@PatrickLino I kept my yoeleo sat50 on the back but just a training wheel on the front. Going to order another 50mm rim from yoeleo for the flatter rolling stuff, and lace it up as spokes/hub are fine. And prob look for a ~35mm climbing wheelset as lots of steep hills around here. Thinking farsports atm :) Still might rock the hot rod look though haha
£1,200 for any frameset for me is the right price whether its China brand or Western
This is a very reasonable and pragmatic answer. I love it!
@@PatrickLino My Scottish Blood
won't let me spend more and if my wife asks I meant £120
@@rothaicc savage lol
As far as the cost of Chinese frame goes, IMO it's still way less than a big-brand frame. In addition, the cost of building a bike is almost always going to be higher than buying a stock bike with similar specs. Jesse Coyle said it the best on the latest Nero show; if you have the exact specifications, and it's going to lead you to replace many of the parts that come with the bike, then a custom build may be cheaper in the long run. Whereas, if a bike comes pretty much exactly what you want, then it's cheaper that direction. Manufactures are able to buy parts at OEM cost, and it's massively less than the MSRP costs that consumers pay.
Jesse shouted me out last episode ❤
Yoooooo~ I agree with what you said with these “high end” Chinese bikes’ pricing. I might as well settle for a big name brand 💯
Giant Propel $3000, SL8 $3500 (framesets). Obviously not cheap, but spending above $2000 on a Chinese brands becomes a tough sell.
@@PatrickLino the regular version of the arrow is $1880 and that includes the integrated handlebar. The ultralight edition is $2380 but also with integrated handlebar
@@marginatux i'll see if i can get a frameset in hand.
@@PatrickLino is the Agile in the testing plans?
@@marginatux was supposed to receive one two months ago 🤷🏾♂️
Great, honest review
Another great vid bro! Did the craft wheels feel sketchy at high speeds? Or speed +winds
Thanks James! High speeds (above 30mph) plus crazy cross-winds (+20mph gusts). I plan to use these on my Tarmac SL8 just to verify the instability, but I have already had the same experience when paired to my Giant Propel.
The pricing to me must be competitive to a 2nd hand western brand frame. Why to pay premium for something that might end up being a quality/support nightmare...
The wheel suppliers seems to have a different understanding of their price positioning. Speaking about that, maybe the more recentbprice jumps in the global market from CHN vendors is to level up their offering in the eyes of the local CHN customers which is the main target for most brands.
"The pricing to me must be competitive to a 2nd hand western brand frame." - I agree with this.
this years is best year many ACM brand launch light weight frame
What is ACM?
@@PatrickLino it stand for all china made. or made in china product
What sets the Craft wheels apart from the other brands on the market ie: Drive Helix or Lun wheels?
What justifies the hope around them, is it just the weight because I have a set of Drive Helix 68D's and the freebody compared between the two seem night an day in overall finish and quality. The 200g difference Im sure is a selling point but going 50mm+ in depth then weight isnt really selling point but moreso the aero gains and my Helix's at 55-61mm in the front and 62-68mm in the rear hold a line pretty well in a crosswind or gust senario, I cant tell the difference between them and my 50mm wheels but both have the wave design.
I haven't tried the new Drive Helix so I can't comment on that. No one single aspect of the CRW wheels lives in a vacuum. The wheels are lightweight, stiff, yet simply floats over bad pavement due to the smaller number of spokes. The fit and finish is fantastic especially on the tubeless rim tape. End of the day you gotta vote with your wallet in terms of what you value the most. My 2 sets of Elite Drive wheels are lightweight but I don't find them very stiff.
Nice review... as always. We thank you!!! The Tavelo Arow says 'more aero and lighter', and that's for the base version which is just $300 more than the attack... I haven't looked at the geometry, but I imagine the Arow is more aggressive geometry than the attack. Would be great to have a light aero comfortable bike. I'm curious to see Joe's continental race team frame on his website, but I forget which manufacturer he was using.
I still would love to get my hands on the new Tavelo Arow. The geometry of that frame should effectively replace both my Attack and Winspace T1500 frame in a single go. Then again, my SL8 will probably do that haha. The silver paint job on the Arow looks great.
Hi,Arow peice 1880 USD include integrated handlebar
@@Tavelobikes thanks!
@@Tavelobikes Thank you. Patrick Lino needs the light weight version so he can review it against the giant propel and Tarmac SL8.
The main reason to buy domestic is for customer service otherwise Here's a list of 10 US domestic bike brands that have Asian manufacturers:
1. Specialized Bicycles
2. Trek Bikes
3. Giant Bicycles
4. Cannondale
5. Santa Cruz Bicycles
6. Yeti Cycles
7. Pivot Cycles
8. Diamondback Bicycles
9. Kona Bikes
10. Intense Cycles.
How much is domestic customer service worth is the real question?
Better yet, how well does each brand handle warranty claims?
You definitely need above a 30 for GP 5000. I had that problem with my Yoeleo 50/88 wheels. Those 25 and 28 were terrible it those crosswinds! My 32 wheels are much better and faster. My 30s handle better, too. I'm not going back to 28s. You still will feel that wind in Chicago when it's 15 mph and above. It was a few weeks ago when we had those 25 mph winds.
Well, next up to review could be their new Arow frame
If the quality is as high as you and others are saying it is definitely worth the money. Ive seen people write that this Attack frame is the same as the current main frame sold by Nich in Thailand and they charge way more than Tavelo.
I'd be interested in hearing hiw the Arow compares to the Propel, (and Win space 1500, and Allez sprint). With the Arow being - even by name - more of a full aero frame, it'd be a more direct competitor to the Propel
One question - you spoke a lot about how the bike feels while climbing. Are you doing those comparisons using the same wheels or at least very similar wheel weights?
I've been in contact with Tavelo on purchasing the Arow frameset. Production times are pretty slow. Hopefully my frame will be finished by end of the summer. And correct, I am using these wheels across a variety frames (Tavelo Attack, Tarmac SL8, and Giant Propel).
@@PatrickLino WOOOOOO. Great about the Arow.
Can't wait to see how the SL8 ride quality compares to this
Hopefully this weekend!
I like the Chinese framesets, but they do not fit me, not even close - they are for 20 somethings -I'm 54- Argon 18 Krypton fits me perfectly. The only problem I have with Chinese wheelsets are the rear hubs and probably not being able to get a freehub in 5 or 10 years. I bought some Light Bicyle custom rims and they are great, laced to DT hubs. (Like the first 'money shot' photo taken in the setting sun - well composed!)
Thanks for chiming in. Great stuff right there!
Patrick is it comfortable enough for someone who rides endurance bikes?
Endurance and comfort, respectively, are two independent variables. A frame's geometry will dictate endurance more so than the subjective properties of comfort. With the correct bike fit position for your riding style, optimized contact points, and wide tires, most bikes including this one can be comfortable.
Clean kit and bike! What shades are those?
@@catchsmok3 Monton sports
Curious: I'm finding the same thing with my Elite Drive 50D front wheel. I feel like it's a little unstable in descents and crosswinds. Thinking about moving on from them. I know you have the same set, would you say the same about your Elite wheels? Also, do you have any recommendations on what to replace my set with if I wanted a little less depth while keeping in the 1300-1400gram range?
I have the Drive 45s which are discontinued now. Check out my video on the wheels called Nepest Maui 45 👍🏾
I like your Jersey; where did you get it from?
Monton Sports. I have a discount code too for 15% off: FXpat15
Great review
Thanks John!
You better hold every stem like that from now on (1:07)
#stemholdermaker
@@PatrickLino #gripthatstem
Whats your opinion on the Tavelos being open mold according to some forums?
An open mold frame is quite different than an OEM factory licensing out an in-house design to various markets. Embargo has to be considered.
@@PatrickLino so is this Tavelo licensing out to other or out Tavelo being the Licensees?
Because if their the Licensees and they are rising the prices, while still being reasonable, I think the case for this vs other brands gets harder
@@EJD200This would be a question for Tavelo or whomever sells their frames because I don’t know. The important thing is to vote with your wallet, and look for brands which provide aspects which you value.
Hey Patrick, I’m looking for a new carbon spoke wheel set and have come down to the Far Sports S5 or the CRW 5055 (will run these on 28mm GP5K’s). If you had to pick a set to run on an aero frame, which would you choose?
I have not used either of the wheels you mentioned, so my opinion is probably invalid. But I will say spend as much as your budget will allow, which would favor the CRW5055s.
Thanks for the reply, Patrick. Leaning in that direction and just needed that nudge
Hi Patrick, how are you liking that Wahoo headunit? I have an Edge 1030 but I am bored of it lol! I want to try something different.
I love it. Great battery too. What’s “boring” on the Edge lol?
@@PatrickLino Is a good unit but I have had it since release day back in 2017 and I guess I just need something different. What called my attention about Wahoo is how good the screen looks during the day! I live in Florida and is sunny all year so a screen like the wahoo should be better I think. I also like how you can highlight different metrics and of course the climb feature ( summit ? ) how it opens without having to load a course. Edge 1030 has climb pro but you need a course running for it to work. Only the new garmin units support it without a course.
These chinese brands are pricing themselves out of the market with the frames. I just hope they don't do the same with electronic groupets.
Or wheels haha
@@PatrickLino There's more competition in wheels to keep prices affordable. I think the chinese brands are trying be on the same level as the mainstream brands for frames by charging the same. But that will back fire.
@@DanTuber big brands need to start offering more carbon spokes, ceramic bearings, and (hooked) wider internal wheels.
@@PatrickLino carbon spokes and ceramic bearings are not necessary.
@@DanTuber Okay cool thanks.
How this frame on sprinting. Thanks 🙏
@@bagusla_alhamdulillah no flex that I can discern
Why dont they find a more original brand name that does not resemble some other brand?
You don't like the name Tavelo? hahaha
Any discount codes for the frame?
I dont think so. Tavelo is a very small start up brand.
Waiting for the chaoyang reviews
Come again? LoL
I thought you were a LEGION brother!🤣😂
Fun Fact: both my family as well as Legion’s hail from the same village in Belize.
That’s my route lol.
Haha that's because it's the lakefront.
I wanted this paintjob and they wanted 500$ extra lmao :) maybe don't advertise is on your social media if it's 500$ extra. Tavelo is silly and won't deal with them after this.
You wanted this paint job on the Attack or new Arow?
@@PatrickLino tavelo attack. I like yours and wanted the same paintjob. When they wanted extra 500$ for little black fade on their stock white frame I told them sayonara
@@kubackjeee Absolutely ridiculous. Especially since they told me this was a standard color, and anything else would incur a fee.
@@PatrickLino it's not on panda podium as a choice so it looks like it's not standard. Looks like you got a special treatment. That's why I told them to gtfo and I am done with them. Would rather use my money for other brand.
@@kubackjeee PP must have updated their options because it WAS on their website at the launch.
Ok. It's just a Chinese bike frame. Thanks for the show. But I'd rather buy domestic brands still.
Thanks for watching! It helps the algorithm.
😂😂😂 Most brands are made in Pacific Asia. Including many of your beloved 'Domestic' brands say hooray.
@@nmonye01 Don't feed the troll. 🤣
Your review is cocky 😅