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They’re running their Rockwell much higher because they took a lot of grief for running it too soft initially, so…now it’s clearly more prone to cracking. Bet your example was closer to 62.
Do you know what the hrc was before they changed it? I heard Benchmade puuko (I think thats what it was) in 3v the hrc was like 55 i believe, people were saying that was too soft. If gideons was indeed around 62, for this knife size, maybe 60 at the most would be just right, 59 or 58 at the lowest if you want to be safe. I know a proper ht is another factor, but thats another topic
I resharpened my Bronco 3V to 15dps and got a lot better cutting performance out of it. It's also of the earlier batch which they ran at a softer Hrc. If yours are relatively New the Hrc is a few points higher making that thin tip a bit more fragile. Put that front spine on a coarse diamond plate get a new tip and put a steeper edge angle on it 17-15dps and it will be a Nice litte edc 😊
I got a Boker Tracker at one point and it came warped from heat treat. Not super noticeable, but enough to bug me. They lost me after that. Thanks for the honest vid!
I have never bought a Boker just because of the cost here in Australia. I don't see them being worth the money when there are better products on the market. Glad there are people like yourself doing reviews so we can see the products for ourselves and make our own decisions based on what we are seeing.
A great example of why the best bang for your buck is staying in the proven family of Tops, Becker, KaBar etc 1095 family and similar. It works. It's affordable, blade grinds aren't flashy. They all "knife" correctly.
I always sharpen my knives from the factory, it’s best to do it anyway to get into good steel and most knives I go 15-18 degrees as it improves performance on most knives.
@@tacticalcenter8658 there is plenty of thin tips, I don't think they all snap so easily but if this is the case it can be a design error for a bushcraft knife
14:18 joeX did a teat on this steel from lionsteel. It broke too easily as the protocol was not great. Iirc it was like 61rc. Should have been 59-60 or a different protocol should have been used. Its decent edge retention though.
I’m just giving you my info. Based off of my experience, go watch the full review on the B-40 and what I put through it. It held up to everything I would expect a compact blade to do. 👍
Content suggestion from a viewer: Maybe take one of your knife reviews as an opportunity to do a knife safety presentation. Yesterday, I was building a Try Stick and was cutting toward my own hand. Well I slipped and filleted my thumb completely in half and also chopped halfway through my index finger. Fortunately my bone was there to stop the blade. I knew better, but it happened. It'll heal up. Yes, even a veteran makes poor choices. Thanks for all you do
@@Arto257 decent edge, plus bad direction, plus excess pressure removing too much wood. I was definitely the donkey in the equation😆 Thanks bro, no stitches and already fused back in less than 48hrs. Fwiw, the gushing blood aided in the sanitation flush, then all I did was utilize bandaids as compression dressings. Changed often and washed the outsides. Looks like no infection. The trick is initial cleansing to prevent infection 👍 In retrospect, I should have also used some topical antibacterial or something.
Ive broken a lot of knives. But dont just blame it on heat treat (and does no one talk about tempering anymore ?) or manufacturer etc. We live in an age we think replication = identical , just because it looks alike doesnt mean its the same. Powder metal... its all the same right? Was it at the back of the forge? Middle ? Front? Does that make a difference along side all the other blades ? Qc is at a low these days and stuff just gets pumped out. Its more our fault for buying into it in the first place. Look at the company and their warranty. Test it and find a good copy of what youre looking for
Nobody does cold weather testing to see what these can do in the winter when steel becomes very brittle. Put them in the freezer overnight and then test them. We spend a lot of time in Sub-Zero temperature especially here in Canada. If a knife can snap in warm weather guaranteed it will not make it at -20 below.
I purchased some of these knives for our staff to use in our outdoor classes. After the first feedback from our team (and after the first attempts at carving myself) I gave the knives a new grind and even then I wasn't really satisfied. Somehow the heat treatment seems to have gone wrong. I hope Böker improves on the next batches.
Precisely why I do not buy boker knives. Their steel heat treat is extremely hit & miss. Boker could make a knife out of adamantium & still somehow ruin the heat treat.
I’ve been carrying the TJ Schwartz overland and overland sport models and absolutely love them. The full size it’s a great backpack nice for hiking and the sport gets carried every day, scout carry at 5 o clock along with a full size folder and slip joint for work. The only other fixed blade I really want now is the guardian 3 from guardian tactics. I love the mini here, but it’s not 3v which is unfortunate. It’s 80CrV2. Still a fixie I’d consider for the price
probably just a heat treat issue, it happens sometimes, though i have to admit that it failed extremely quickly. german boker knives are usually excellent pieces, their magnum series are chinese 440a trash and the plus series can vary a lot depending on the country and factory.
Looking at your thumbnail, I thought you were reviewing the UG Tools TiNy with 3d printed titanium handle. The Boker is an interesting design, surprised the 3V tip broke that easy. I have the Italian version CS Master Hunter with a scary thin 3V tip. I’ve been surprised how well it’s held up.
I forgot his name. The guy who invented magnacut, he quoted " Grind and edge geometry is the most important aspect of the blade". I guess he was right...
I have the Boker Mini and would agree with your take on this knife, I love it. I just had a custom kydex ferro rod holder mounted to it …Which size of Ulticlip do you think would fit the sheath on the MIni?
My go to fixed blade knife is my Farberware edgekeeper 6 inch cleaver blade. With a cleaver blade you never have to worry about a broken knife tip. I don't know what kind of steel that it has. It just says high carbon steel.
Wow, this was perfect timing for me...I was looking to get my first knife in 3V, and I've had the Bronco sitting in my cart since yesterday. Guess I'll give the Master Hunter another look now. Thanks for the heads-up!
Is the smaller of the fix blade a good fix blade for a EDC knife for somebody that doesn’t go camping that often but just wants to carry a fixed blade with them everywhere they go
@@gideonstactical do you think it’s a good fix blade for my first fix blade? I’m trying to get something small but not too small that I can carry around with me all the time and not have to carry a folding knife.
Would be interresting what Böker says. Should not break that easy. However, who knows what has been done with the knife before the wood test that we don't see in the video.
Now this is what I would recommend for heat treat cpm 3v: 1st preheat: 500-600°C, equalize 2nd preheat:800-900°C, equalize Authenize: 1060-1070°C, equalize, soak 30-35min Quench in Oil preheated 60-80°C Cryo: immediately after cleaning, minimum -80°C or lower soak 30min 1st Temper: 150°C equalize, soak 2hrs, quench in water Cryo: immediately after temper 2nd Temper: 180-200°C equalize, soak 2hrs should give you 60+ and a fine durable grain. RGDS Roman This is why I would do it like this. The "receipt" suitable is for a vacuum furnace (Quench with maximum pressure) or a regular cline, but surface protection has to be assured. Salt bath will cut the soak time approximately by 1/3 and thus give better aust-grain. The preheating steps will assure the the austenization steps can be done quick. Quicker speed >> smaller grain Authenization temperature is dedicated to dissolve Chrome and Molybdenum >> fair hardness and some enhanced "Stainresistance" is to be expected. The vanadium will remain in the steel bond as a compound of carbon, hence aust-grain cant really grow The oil quench is suitable for any steel out of the air hardening classes. The thin cross sections get higher hardness after quench (greater volume fraction of martensite) and a less stabilized volume fraction retained austenite. (The volume fraction of RA can be expected (near guess) between 20 and 30% or even higher) Warping of the blade shall not be an issue with these materials. If you have done a lot of hard mechanical work before hardening (milling, grinding,)then do a stress relief so warping gets less likely. The cryo needs to be done as quick as possible below -80°C. RA tends to stabilize rather quickly after the quench (some reports speak of minutes) The longer you wait, the less efficient the transformation to untempered martensite will be. And a minimum of -70°C is necessary to get enough stress into the micro structure, so the transformation (RA>>Martensite) process can restart again. Extensive soak time is not necessary since the process runs at hypersonic speed. But still there will be remains of RA that need to be addressed by the 2nd cryo. The first temper is a low temper so the remaining RA is stabilized at the lowest level possible and at the same time there is enough stress relief in the martensite that has been built and furthermore the transformation from tetragonal to cubic martensite is started. The water quench speeds the whole thing up and avoids precipitation of embrittling phases. Then the rest of the remaining RA will be attacked by the 2nd cryo (usually the RA will drop below 5% volume fraction) so burr formation is less likely. 2nd temper will now temper the untempered martensite build up by the cryo and bring the blade to a fully tempered martensitic structure with a low volume fraction of RA and a fair amount of carbides undissolved. Of course there is the question why not temper it at 540°C? First of all, if you don't have access to cryo then this is your way to go. In my studies of edge stability I did extensive work to compare secondary hardening and low temper with cryo. The results (reference is my graduate thesis 1999 Munich University of Applied Sciences) I found considerable higher edge stability with the samples that had low temper/cryo The material used at the time was ATS-34 all with the same charge and thus the same condition of austinization, but with different temper cycles. RGDS Roman Landes
I feel like Boker is what non-knife guys or gals buy when they think they’re buying premium. I feel like that’s the company’s niche. Could be wrong. I own hundreds of knives and it’s never even crossed my mind to buy a boker.
Maybe Böker manuacturers in Asia have better results with traditionnal steels instead of powder metallurgy ? Was wondering if you have reviewed the Core (FX605/FX606) by Fox Knives ? I am wondering if Becut steel is a good option for a fixed blade knife...(whether it's scandi grind or not)
I'm digging the 3.5in fixies. Boker has a magnacut version of the Vigtig (Vigtig vs Wild). It's available in Europe, so I got my hands on one. ($140 usd with shipping) Scandi grind. The handle is a little blocky (intentionally) because they wanted to give interior storage, but that is my only gripe. I think for daily pocket carry, the mini bronco's flat saber is the winner. but for fire making and bushcraft...the Vigtig has been a pleasure. As for the 3V tip...just no. Boker fix that!
That’s correct and there are there are main scenarios were stab may be required or having to do some lateral torque on the tip. That’s what this test is for. And compared to most on TH-cam. I’m pretty easy on Tips.
G'day Aaron, one would immediately think a HT @ too high a Rockwell, ..... though interestingly it did bend before it snapped ....... and prying back against the already weakened bend probably did the damage ....... so maybe its too soft ? Either way, not good and I'm with ya, the "slim jim" handle for the blade size doesn't appeal at all. The little fella certainly looks a worthy tool though. Incidentally, the 80Cr on my Skrama and Puukko still haven't spotted up in my salty climate; (we've had our fair share of humidity in recent times too), I cant understand it, ...... but hey, I dont have to understand it .... I'll just be content with less maintenance ; ) However, it did occur to me, since they both have leather sheaths, (admittedly with plastic inserts in this case), I wonder if the rough side of leather at a micro level, (rather than out in a downpour), could be soaking up, or wicking away, moisture/salt in the air internally, ..... have you ever known this to be a thing ? Cheers Duke.
I've never understood why a tip test makes sense. I don't see a reason you'd need to jab your knife into wood and flex it back and forth. If you need to make a hole, buy a hex shank drill bit and a T handle screw driver.
Well, as I showed this video. It shows that the smaller knife is more durable for those who are curious. And there has to be a level tip strength. I agree with you that you shouldn’t treat it like a screwdriver or a crowbar.
Had a bark river mini aurora in 3v. Lost the tip just like that while quartering a whitetail. After a couple more deer it had a large chip on the edge. I keeped it as clean and dry as I could but it got orange spots all over the blade that I could not remove. That was a very expensive P.O.S. I gave it away just looking at it made me angry.
I think the bark river knives are known for their shoddy heat treatment, if you ever think about trying 3v again, try another brand. Perhaps a 3v knife around 60 hrc might do, 3v can be found cheaper than bark river prices, with better ht too A nice finish would help negate the rust (like a dlc coating)
I've been watching TH-cam knife videos for almost 20 years. It is my very strong impression that modern super stainless and powder steels are not AT ALL tougher than carbon steels or low alloy tool steels or even classic stainless steels like D2. I have never seen any video evidence to support these claims. Knives made from the modern steels break just as easily as anything else. Just look at the Dutch Bushcraft video where the guy snaps a Magnacut Kabar in like 2 seconds of batonning. That's the epitome of what I've witnessed over the years. I think the blade steel industry is outright lying to us or they grievously misunderstand their own science.
I do have the bronco . I know it is 3v . I know it should take punishment. But i use it more for game processing and food prep than anything else. It is a thin tip . It holds an edge better than my tops camp creek in s35vn . And its thin . Which means slices like a dream . Different knives different use/purposes. Also don't trust rubber handles with shock . I like the Bronco but see the limits and use accordingly. Great review as always thank you.
Other knives with the same or similar steel with similar profile tips have handled this test - it's really not an unreasonable ask, especially for a woods knife. This is the result of a poor heat treat, plain and simple. Unacceptable for the price.
I modify the blades of the knives by planing the blades, in my videos I show how the knives become sharp, to sharpen I use a much more effective technique than stones which makes the blades as sharp as razor blades. and I have the sharpest knives in the world.
Glad it works for you. Several reasons why it doesn’t work for me. But that’s the point of the video. To help other people determine if it’s worth pursuing or not.
At first, just a great review. Boker just keeps confusing the buyers. Bringing to the market so opposite specs n performance products. From nice designs but with steel at a low end like 440a, good designs , but with flaws of quality control, and nice look and specs at prices that almost bring a heart attack. Boker just lost the market confidence that a buy from that brand is a secure choice and well spending money, like Liosteel and Joker have created.
How the f**k does a 3V break…? Answer: 1. Not all 3V steel is created equal…. Boker clearly is buying the lowest grade of 3V possible. 2. Terrible heat treating.
After my experiences with Böker... you couldn't give one to me. It's a shame because they have some really nice looking knives, but the execution is just not there.
My Winkler Knife is 80CRV I believe. My Esee is made of crappy whatever I think D2? Probably not its softer than that. Both have very good hammering and quenching processes though. Probably why bladesmiths 300-600 years ago got paid well. Using very crappy iron and making it into a masterpiece through sheer willpower 😂
That is my BIGGEST fear about knofe companies Sorry bro,but regardless HOW THE HEAT TREAT IS DONE? cpm3v will NOT break like that. They are simply lieing about the steel used.
I doubt they would go that far, very risky and prob criminal. I'd say it's legitimate 3V with heat treatment, tempered errors. Could be blade geometry or maybe it's just a poor example. Guess it would all depend on how common the problem is.
i bet my ass off that this blokes at böker used secondary hardening at temper, that is why european cpm 3v blades are so bad. the steel retailers still have this kind of heat treatment advertised on their sites here around
@@Laurarium why would you need liquid nitrogen if your using nitrogen gas? Just add more of it to go negative. This is common practice in vacuum furnaces.
@@tacticalcenter8658 sorry, i don’t get “to go negative ”. Pressurized gas is for air-hardening. The Cryo is done separately in liquid nitrogen. That’s all I saw and heard from the video they put out.
@@Laurarium negative temps. Spyderco dont use liquid nitrogen. They add more nitrogen gas after the initial quench... And the temperatures goes negative at sub zero temps.
Booker is the problem . this isn't th he only video I've seen of people saying that they werent expecting a knife would breake that easy on a boker. their heat treats probably aren't consistent
No experience with the specific models but 154CM and S35VN are both fantastic and proven steels, especially for use in the brush. 3V is good, but can be finicky to heat treat, as can be seen with the results of this particular review. Looking at the blades, I'd personally suggest the FC5 if you want a belt knife - it looks to be a very versatile blade shape. If you're specifically looking for woodworking, though, the BOB will be your best friend.
3V is a great steel if it's treated properly, and the Guardian 4.5 is a fantastic blade. I'd suggest you look into an Armatus kydex sheath for it - makes the carry experience way better in my eyes
Bummer on the tip. I have the Lionsteel B41 though, so I am safe on the alternative. ^^ I also own the M5 in CPM3V. Have yet to put it through its paces but I am curious how that will hold up. I felt the same with the Short Scandi versions´ grip they released recently (Naturensöhne MK1, two german TH-camr´s knife based on the Bronco). The full size Bronco doesn´t feel right in hand for me (my Casström Lars Fält being my benchmark for an optimal handle) but with the Short Scandi it feels good and I am gonna get it to try out. My parents live not too far from Solingen so I can actually drive to Boker and pick it up myself there when I visit them. Many knives cut quite poorly out of the box, at least to my expectations, so I expect to have to regrind as a standard and am surprised when I don´t need to do one (hasn´t happenend yet but the Ursus 45 was close).
I like 3V, but it is no spring steel. If you want to have your knife bend, go for 5160. I also like 80CrV2, as for example made by Laurin Metalli of Finland, very inexpensive blade blanks that will sharpen to a razor edge.
Because Boker. Most overrated brand ever, probably because it's german but as a european I can assure you "Deutsche qualität" is way behind us. I have a couple of Boker, collectors and others, and all of them had an issue. Not to mention that when you get in touch with the after sale service, it will make you wait for months for a stupid spare part (that broke within a year) to eventually tell you it's impossible to get anymore (but I wouldn't generalise since it's case by case and not the point) 🙂
Ja die teile sind zu teuer und halten nix aus wenn die mal ne 5mm klinge dran machen würden und die Spitze so wie Mora, dann wäre das Messer gut aber so ist es nix . 😁👍
Take out the word "Be" in the title, it has been a long day, cannot help my response to the grammar in the title. Like your reviews, though. God, I am old.
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They’re running their Rockwell much higher because they took a lot of grief for running it too soft initially, so…now it’s clearly more prone to cracking. Bet your example was closer to 62.
Do you know what the hrc was before they changed it? I heard Benchmade puuko (I think thats what it was) in 3v the hrc was like 55 i believe, people were saying that was too soft. If gideons was indeed around 62, for this knife size, maybe 60 at the most would be just right, 59 or 58 at the lowest if you want to be safe.
I know a proper ht is another factor, but thats another topic
They don't know how to heat treat 3v properly.
This knife bent first, then broke after being bent back and forth. That screams lower Rockwell soft blade.
CPM 3V is a powdered tool steel with a very high toughness. I think the heat treatment of the knife is bad!
Boker just cannot get their shit together.
I resharpened my Bronco 3V to 15dps and got a lot better cutting performance out of it. It's also of the earlier batch which they ran at a softer Hrc. If yours are relatively New the Hrc is a few points higher making that thin tip a bit more fragile. Put that front spine on a coarse diamond plate get a new tip and put a steeper edge angle on it 17-15dps and it will be a Nice litte edc 😊
Or buy a knife that is good out of the box....
I got a Boker Tracker at one point and it came warped from heat treat. Not super noticeable, but enough to bug me. They lost me after that. Thanks for the honest vid!
Aaron, don’t those knives look just like the Steel Will Druids?
Very similar, but the druids has thicker handles
I have never bought a Boker just because of the cost here in Australia. I don't see them being worth the money when there are better products on the market. Glad there are people like yourself doing reviews so we can see the products for ourselves and make our own decisions based on what we are seeing.
Fair enough!
A great example of why the best bang for your buck is staying in the proven family of Tops, Becker, KaBar etc 1095 family and similar.
It works. It's affordable, blade grinds aren't flashy.
They all "knife" correctly.
I always sharpen my knives from the factory, it’s best to do it anyway to get into good steel and most knives I go 15-18 degrees as it improves performance on most knives.
come on dude... it's subpar heat treat... other channels have noted it.
Allegedly they were supposed to fix the heat treatment.
@@Woodzy-5326they don't care
Indeed this version is harder (61+/- 1 HRC) than the first version (below 59 hrc) maybe this one was too hard
@@marcomaiano maybe they didnt design the geometry of the tip well enough
@@tacticalcenter8658 there is plenty of thin tips, I don't think they all snap so easily but if this is the case it can be a design error for a bushcraft knife
14:18 joeX did a teat on this steel from lionsteel. It broke too easily as the protocol was not great. Iirc it was like 61rc. Should have been 59-60 or a different protocol should have been used. Its decent edge retention though.
I’m just giving you my info. Based off of my experience, go watch the full review on the B-40 and what I put through it. It held up to everything I would expect a compact blade to do. 👍
Content suggestion from a viewer:
Maybe take one of your knife reviews as an opportunity to do a knife safety presentation.
Yesterday, I was building a Try Stick and was cutting toward my own hand. Well I slipped and filleted my thumb completely in half and also chopped halfway through my index finger. Fortunately my bone was there to stop the blade. I knew better, but it happened. It'll heal up. Yes, even a veteran makes poor choices.
Thanks for all you do
Wow!! Really sorry to hear that my friend!! Get better soon
Holy crap man, you must've had quite an edge on that thing! Heal fast brother
@@Arto257 decent edge, plus bad direction, plus excess pressure removing too much wood. I was definitely the donkey in the equation😆
Thanks bro, no stitches and already fused back in less than 48hrs.
Fwiw, the gushing blood aided in the sanitation flush, then all I did was utilize bandaids as compression dressings. Changed often and washed the outsides. Looks like no infection. The trick is initial cleansing to prevent infection 👍 In retrospect, I should have also used some topical antibacterial or something.
Do you know the Böker MK-1? It is more or less the Bronco Mini with CPM-3V and a Scandi. Maybe that's the winner 🙂
I have the mini Branco & love it! I edc it with horizontal belt loops.
Ive broken a lot of knives. But dont just blame it on heat treat (and does no one talk about tempering anymore ?) or manufacturer etc. We live in an age we think replication = identical , just because it looks alike doesnt mean its the same. Powder metal... its all the same right? Was it at the back of the forge? Middle ? Front? Does that make a difference along side all the other blades ? Qc is at a low these days and stuff just gets pumped out. Its more our fault for buying into it in the first place. Look at the company and their warranty. Test it and find a good copy of what youre looking for
Really not surprised by this brand
Nobody does cold weather testing to see what these can do in the winter when steel becomes very brittle. Put them in the freezer overnight and then test them. We spend a lot of time in Sub-Zero temperature especially here in Canada. If a knife can snap in warm weather guaranteed it will not make it at -20 below.
I purchased some of these knives for our staff to use in our outdoor classes. After the first feedback from our team (and after the first attempts at carving myself) I gave the knives a new grind and even then I wasn't really satisfied. Somehow the heat treatment seems to have gone wrong. I hope Böker improves on the next batches.
They won't. This issue has been going on since they offered 3v. They just can't do it right
I will meet them today at the IWA in Nürnberg. Let‘s see what happens if I bring up this topic.
Precisely why I do not buy boker knives. Their steel heat treat is extremely hit & miss. Boker could make a knife out of adamantium & still somehow ruin the heat treat.
It works- thanks for showing
I’ve been carrying the TJ Schwartz overland and overland sport models and absolutely love them. The full size it’s a great backpack nice for hiking and the sport gets carried every day, scout carry at 5 o clock along with a full size folder and slip joint for work. The only other fixed blade I really want now is the guardian 3 from guardian tactics.
I love the mini here, but it’s not 3v which is unfortunate. It’s 80CrV2. Still a fixie I’d consider for the price
I got the Confidante, it is excellent!
Agreed the confidante is awesome
@@gideonstactical It better be! I bought it on your recomendation lol
If i remember correctly, there was a heattreating issue at the start of the Production. At least on the Bronco 3v in germany.
Wore headphones to enjoy the ambient.
*Happy sparrows noices*
😆
Spring is here!
Is Boker German for Broken? Seems like their products break so often in tests
I've never had problems with my older Bokers. Haven't tried these new ones. Switched back to carbon steel several years ago.
probably just a heat treat issue, it happens sometimes, though i have to admit that it failed extremely quickly.
german boker knives are usually excellent pieces, their magnum series are chinese 440a trash and the plus series can vary a lot depending on the country and factory.
Poor blade geometry and a bad heat treatment. The steel is far from super .Thank you for the information. Cheers
Ugh....I was going to buy this exact knife....I really want a 3v (any super steel, really) knife.
Looking at your thumbnail, I thought you were reviewing the UG Tools TiNy with 3d printed titanium handle. The Boker is an interesting design, surprised the 3V tip broke that easy. I have the Italian version CS Master Hunter with a scary thin 3V tip. I’ve been surprised how well it’s held up.
I’m wildly surprised! Great comparison and analysis
I forgot his name. The guy who invented magnacut, he quoted
" Grind and edge geometry is the most important aspect of the blade".
I guess he was right...
I have the Boker Mini and would agree with your take on this knife, I love it. I just had a custom kydex ferro rod holder mounted to it
…Which size of Ulticlip do you think would fit the sheath on the MIni?
Boker making a desert 2.0 warrior out 440 A come on man.
Boker may have had a good rep in the past but for the last 10-20 years I've never put Boker into a category of knives of quality.
My go to fixed blade knife is my Farberware edgekeeper 6 inch cleaver blade. With a cleaver blade you never have to worry about a broken knife tip. I don't know what kind of steel that it has. It just says high carbon steel.
Wow, this was perfect timing for me...I was looking to get my first knife in 3V, and I've had the Bronco sitting in my cart since yesterday. Guess I'll give the Master Hunter another look now. Thanks for the heads-up!
Don’t sleep on the Benchmade 200 Puukko. I’ve had it since it was released, and it’s 👌
@@Hankhillismrbig I was considering that, but unfortunately it seems to be discontinued, and I can't find anywhere that still has it available.
Yes discontinued
@@Luke-jq8mv That’s unfortunate. I feel like Benchmade always discontinues their best stuff.
Is the smaller of the fix blade a good fix blade for a EDC knife for somebody that doesn’t go camping that often but just wants to carry a fixed blade with them everywhere they go
It is a good all around tool. I edc it alot
@@gideonstactical do you think it’s a good fix blade for my first fix blade? I’m trying to get something small but not too small that I can carry around with me all the time and not have to carry a folding knife.
Would be interresting what Böker says. Should not break that easy. However, who knows what has been done with the knife before the wood test that we don't see in the video.
Boker is not known for good heat treatment. Here's a better alternative...
Now this is what I would recommend for heat treat cpm 3v:
1st preheat: 500-600°C, equalize
2nd preheat:800-900°C, equalize
Authenize: 1060-1070°C, equalize, soak 30-35min
Quench in Oil preheated 60-80°C
Cryo: immediately after cleaning, minimum -80°C or lower soak 30min
1st Temper: 150°C equalize, soak 2hrs, quench in water
Cryo: immediately after temper
2nd Temper: 180-200°C equalize, soak 2hrs
should give you 60+ and a fine durable grain. RGDS Roman
This is why I would do it like this.
The "receipt" suitable is for a vacuum furnace (Quench with maximum pressure) or a regular cline, but surface protection has to be assured.
Salt bath will cut the soak time approximately by 1/3 and thus give better aust-grain.
The preheating steps will assure the the austenization steps can be done quick. Quicker speed >> smaller grain
Authenization temperature is dedicated to dissolve Chrome and Molybdenum >> fair hardness and some enhanced "Stainresistance" is to be expected.
The vanadium will remain in the steel bond as a compound of carbon, hence aust-grain cant really grow
The oil quench is suitable for any steel out of the air hardening classes. The thin cross sections get higher hardness after quench (greater volume fraction of martensite) and a less stabilized volume fraction retained austenite. (The volume fraction of RA can be expected (near guess) between 20 and 30% or even higher)
Warping of the blade shall not be an issue with these materials.
If you have done a lot of hard mechanical work before hardening (milling, grinding,)then do a stress relief so warping gets less likely.
The cryo needs to be done as quick as possible below -80°C.
RA tends to stabilize rather quickly after the quench (some reports speak of minutes)
The longer you wait, the less efficient the transformation to untempered martensite will be.
And a minimum of -70°C is necessary to get enough stress into the micro structure, so the transformation (RA>>Martensite) process can restart again.
Extensive soak time is not necessary since the process runs at hypersonic speed.
But still there will be remains of RA that need to be addressed by the 2nd cryo.
The first temper is a low temper so the remaining RA is stabilized at the lowest level possible and at the same time there is enough stress relief in the martensite that has been built and furthermore the transformation from tetragonal to cubic martensite is started.
The water quench speeds the whole thing up and avoids precipitation of embrittling phases.
Then the rest of the remaining RA will be attacked by the 2nd cryo (usually the RA will drop below 5% volume fraction) so burr formation is less likely.
2nd temper will now temper the untempered martensite build up by the cryo and bring the blade to a fully tempered martensitic structure with a low volume fraction of RA and a fair amount of carbides undissolved.
Of course there is the question why not temper it at 540°C?
First of all, if you don't have access to cryo then this is your way to go.
In my studies of edge stability I did extensive work to compare secondary hardening and low temper with cryo.
The results (reference is my graduate thesis 1999 Munich University of Applied Sciences) I found considerable higher edge stability with the samples that had low temper/cryo The material used at the time was ATS-34 all with the same charge and thus the same condition of austinization, but with different temper cycles.
RGDS Roman Landes
But yeah, bokers first 3v was way too low. Then they said they were going to make it better, but they didnt.
I’ve always faced some weird problems with all and any boker knives ever had. Even with their 1095 Bark Beetle that should be my dearest on paper.
I seen it had a shady heat treatment so swerved this model
I feel like Boker is what non-knife guys or gals buy when they think they’re buying premium. I feel like that’s the company’s niche. Could be wrong. I own hundreds of knives and it’s never even crossed my mind to buy a boker.
Boker QC on heat treat and edge grinding leaves much to be desired.
Maybe Böker manuacturers in Asia have better results with traditionnal steels instead of powder metallurgy ?
Was wondering if you have reviewed the Core (FX605/FX606) by Fox Knives ? I am wondering if Becut steel is a good option for a fixed blade knife...(whether it's scandi grind or not)
I'm digging the 3.5in fixies. Boker has a magnacut version of the Vigtig (Vigtig vs Wild). It's available in Europe, so I got my hands on one. ($140 usd with shipping) Scandi grind. The handle is a little blocky (intentionally) because they wanted to give interior storage, but that is my only gripe. I think for daily pocket carry, the mini bronco's flat saber is the winner. but for fire making and bushcraft...the Vigtig has been a pleasure. As for the 3V tip...just no. Boker fix that!
That lady in the food commercial looks exactly the same as a TV presenter in the UK called Emma Willis.
That’s my wife! She is awesome
what is exactly the purpose to test the tip? we are never doing this with our knives. Is it to test the toughness of the steel?
That’s correct and there are there are main scenarios were stab may be required or having to do some lateral torque on the tip. That’s what this test is for. And compared to most on TH-cam. I’m pretty easy on Tips.
Merci, thank you
That leather sheath made by Timberland"?
Steel Will called. They want their Druid design back
Hahah for sure
G'day Aaron, one would immediately think a HT @ too high a Rockwell, ..... though interestingly it did bend before it snapped ....... and prying back against the already weakened bend probably did the damage ....... so maybe its too soft ?
Either way, not good and I'm with ya, the "slim jim" handle for the blade size doesn't appeal at all.
The little fella certainly looks a worthy tool though.
Incidentally, the 80Cr on my Skrama and Puukko still haven't spotted up in my salty climate; (we've had our fair share of humidity in recent times too), I cant understand it, ...... but hey, I dont have to understand it .... I'll just be content with less maintenance ; )
However, it did occur to me, since they both have leather sheaths, (admittedly with plastic inserts in this case), I wonder if the rough side of leather at a micro level, (rather than out in a downpour), could be soaking up, or wicking away, moisture/salt in the air internally, ..... have you ever known this to be a thing ?
Cheers Duke.
I love the back ground guitar¡!!! Saturated with chorus!!!
They probably didn’t do a temper before the quench
I've never understood why a tip test makes sense. I don't see a reason you'd need to jab your knife into wood and flex it back and forth. If you need to make a hole, buy a hex shank drill bit and a T handle screw driver.
Well, as I showed this video. It shows that the smaller knife is more durable for those who are curious. And there has to be a level tip strength. I agree with you that you shouldn’t treat it like a screwdriver or a crowbar.
Had a bark river mini aurora in 3v. Lost the tip just like that while quartering a whitetail. After a couple more deer it had a large chip on the edge. I keeped it as clean and dry as I could but it got orange spots all over the blade that I could not remove. That was a very expensive P.O.S. I gave it away just looking at it made me angry.
I think the bark river knives are known for their shoddy heat treatment, if you ever think about trying 3v again, try another brand. Perhaps a 3v knife around 60 hrc might do, 3v can be found cheaper than bark river prices, with better ht too
A nice finish would help negate the rust (like a dlc coating)
I've been watching TH-cam knife videos for almost 20 years. It is my very strong impression that modern super stainless and powder steels are not AT ALL tougher than carbon steels or low alloy tool steels or even classic stainless steels like D2. I have never seen any video evidence to support these claims. Knives made from the modern steels break just as easily as anything else. Just look at the Dutch Bushcraft video where the guy snaps a Magnacut Kabar in like 2 seconds of batonning. That's the epitome of what I've witnessed over the years. I think the blade steel industry is outright lying to us or they grievously misunderstand their own science.
How is it be, indeed
I do have the bronco . I know it is 3v . I know it should take punishment. But i use it more for game processing and food prep than anything else. It is a thin tip . It holds an edge better than my tops camp creek in s35vn . And its thin . Which means slices like a dream . Different knives different use/purposes. Also don't trust rubber handles with shock . I like the Bronco but see the limits and use accordingly. Great review as always thank you.
Other knives with the same or similar steel with similar profile tips have handled this test - it's really not an unreasonable ask, especially for a woods knife. This is the result of a poor heat treat, plain and simple. Unacceptable for the price.
Thanks for sharing
Makes me question whether it's the same CPM 3V as in other blades. Or maybe I have been made to believe it's nigh indestructible.
Exactly 👍
Its all based on the ht. The steel is 3v.
I own a few budget Boker Auto's but I've never been a big fan of Boker , It seams they've had some Heat Treat problems over the years ..... 👍🖖
I modify the blades of the knives by planing the blades, in my videos I show how the knives become sharp, to sharpen I use a much more effective technique than stones which makes the blades as sharp as razor blades. and I have the sharpest knives in the world.
Reprofiling it is fine, 3V is a relatively easy steel to reprofile and resharpened.
When the ads play I check my notifications haha.
i love my bronco and i think think the tip test is stupid
Glad it works for you. Several reasons why it doesn’t work for me. But that’s the point of the video. To help other people determine if it’s worth pursuing or not.
MidwayUSA has the srk compact in 3v for 89.99 much better tip than the bronco has a 90ish degree spine. There’s really no post on the 3v compact
Hey now, Aaron isn't horsing around with these knives.🧐
😂 haha
Looks like the mini is better.
CPM 3V has around 7% Chromium which makes an alloy more brittle. But the odds are heat treat is the greatest factor.
The tip was a geometry issue and the greatest issue.
At first, just a great review. Boker just keeps confusing the buyers. Bringing to the market so opposite specs n performance products. From nice designs but with steel at a low end like 440a, good designs , but with flaws of quality control, and nice look and specs at prices that almost bring a heart attack. Boker just lost the market confidence that a buy from that brand is a secure choice and well spending money, like Liosteel and Joker have created.
Sure like the mini. Nice EDC.
How the f**k does a 3V break…? Answer: 1. Not all 3V steel is created equal…. Boker clearly is buying the lowest grade of 3V possible. 2. Terrible heat treating.
After my experiences with Böker... you couldn't give one to me. It's a shame because they have some really nice looking knives, but the execution is just not there.
The only Boker I've really had good luck with is my Pry-Mate by Jesper Voxness...other examples have been fair at best and I've stopped buying them...
I wonder what Böker has to say about this CPM-3V Bronco...
Some joeX action!!!
My Winkler Knife is 80CRV I believe. My Esee is made of crappy whatever I think D2? Probably not its softer than that. Both have very good hammering and quenching processes though. Probably why bladesmiths 300-600 years ago got paid well. Using very crappy iron and making it into a masterpiece through sheer willpower 😂
I am not aware of any esee made out of D2 they use 1095, s35vn, or MagnaCut
That is my BIGGEST fear about knofe companies
Sorry bro,but regardless HOW THE HEAT TREAT IS DONE? cpm3v will NOT break like that. They are simply lieing about the steel used.
I doubt they would go that far, very risky and prob criminal. I'd say it's legitimate 3V with heat treatment, tempered errors. Could be blade geometry or maybe it's just a poor example. Guess it would all depend on how common the problem is.
Not the first time this Boker has failed.
i bet my ass off that this blokes at böker used secondary hardening at temper, that is why european cpm 3v blades are so bad. the steel retailers still have this kind of heat treatment advertised on their sites here around
I provided a non secondary hardening protocol in one of my comments. Much better for 3v. Its also a geometry design issue at Boker.
It's cool they're trying to make them in Germany at least.
Bought a JE Made Q4 Nessmuk
It’s got a Optimized 14C28N, I mean seriously, high pressure Nitrogen gas quenched then deep cryo…
If its using nitrogen gas quench, they just add more to go negative temps. They are not likely using LN2.
@@tacticalcenter8658 The quench is made in gas form nitrogen under 10bar of pressure, the cryo uses liquid notrogen.
@@Laurarium why would you need liquid nitrogen if your using nitrogen gas? Just add more of it to go negative. This is common practice in vacuum furnaces.
@@tacticalcenter8658 sorry, i don’t get “to go negative ”. Pressurized gas is for air-hardening. The Cryo is done separately in liquid nitrogen. That’s all I saw and heard from the video they put out.
@@Laurarium negative temps. Spyderco dont use liquid nitrogen. They add more nitrogen gas after the initial quench... And the temperatures goes negative at sub zero temps.
i like 14C28N.
Very underrated steel
Do you eat indoors with your cap on?
Always!
I quit buying Bokers years ago. Just never had a good experience.
Ya that sucks
Booker is the problem . this isn't th he only video I've seen of people saying that they werent expecting a knife would breake that easy on a boker. their heat treats probably aren't consistent
Torn between Tops BOB Fieldcraft in 154cm or White River FC5 in 3V or S35VN. Any experience with either one?
No experience with the specific models but 154CM and S35VN are both fantastic and proven steels, especially for use in the brush. 3V is good, but can be finicky to heat treat, as can be seen with the results of this particular review. Looking at the blades, I'd personally suggest the FC5 if you want a belt knife - it looks to be a very versatile blade shape. If you're specifically looking for woodworking, though, the BOB will be your best friend.
@@Arto257 thank you. 👍🏼 I appreciate the information and suggestion.
I like the Bob but the FC5 would probably be the way to go
@@gideonstacticalI like them both that's the problem 🤣 but I am leaning more towards the FC5 🤷♂️
Lifetime warranty
I just ordered a bradford guardian 4.5 in CPM-3V, was that a bad idea??
3V is a great steel if it's treated properly, and the Guardian 4.5 is a fantastic blade. I'd suggest you look into an Armatus kydex sheath for it - makes the carry experience way better in my eyes
I love 3V just surprised by this one
I hope its a nice blade, I bought it for the toughness and edge retention so hopefully it does that okay
Bummer on the tip. I have the Lionsteel B41 though, so I am safe on the alternative. ^^ I also own the M5 in CPM3V. Have yet to put it through its paces but I am curious how that will hold up. I felt the same with the Short Scandi versions´ grip they released recently (Naturensöhne MK1, two german TH-camr´s knife based on the Bronco). The full size Bronco doesn´t feel right in hand for me (my Casström Lars Fält being my benchmark for an optimal handle) but with the Short Scandi it feels good and I am gonna get it to try out. My parents live not too far from Solingen so I can actually drive to Boker and pick it up myself there when I visit them. Many knives cut quite poorly out of the box, at least to my expectations, so I expect to have to regrind as a standard and am surprised when I don´t need to do one (hasn´t happenend yet but the Ursus 45 was close).
Böker is known for the softest Magnacut out there.. 59-60 it's crap..
Why does this look so much like the Druid series?
Awesomejob
I like 3V, but it is no spring steel. If you want to have your knife bend, go for 5160. I also like 80CrV2, as for example made by Laurin Metalli of Finland, very inexpensive blade blanks that will sharpen to a razor edge.
Because Boker.
Most overrated brand ever, probably because it's german but as a european I can assure you "Deutsche qualität" is way behind us. I have a couple of Boker, collectors and others, and all of them had an issue.
Not to mention that when you get in touch with the after sale service, it will make you wait for months for a stupid spare part (that broke within a year) to eventually tell you it's impossible to get anymore (but I wouldn't generalise since it's case by case and not the point) 🙂
Ja die teile sind zu teuer und halten nix aus wenn die mal ne 5mm klinge dran machen würden und die Spitze so wie Mora, dann wäre das Messer gut aber so ist es nix . 😁👍
Take out the word "Be" in the title, it has been a long day, cannot help my response to the grammar in the title. Like your reviews, though. God, I am old.
Thanks for the pointing it out!
👍🏻
Boker is Chineseum dont buy it. Ive alwaysed stayed away from them for a purpose
I think you need to correct the English in your video title.
As an "influencer", you don't want to be promoting improper English.
How is he promoting it? Do ESL classes now use TH-cam titles as tutorials?
@@justinklein2982
If he doesn't correct it, it could be mistaken by ESL students as proper English.
You wouldn't want that would you?
@@seeharvester Lol, fair enough!
Thanks for catching that.
@@gideonstactical
You're welcome!